0:27

When he went to go clean it out, his boss had borrowed the car to

0:30

go pick up one of the undersecretaries of agriculture at the airport, not

0:33

knowing what was in the trunk, and opened up the trunk and if it smelled

0:37

bad before, it smelled terrible now. And he looked at me

0:41

and he had told me this story because I had made a mistake. But he

0:44

looked at me and he said, tim, it's only stupid if you do it

0:47

twice. And it stuck with me all this time.

0:51

I mean, he could have yelled at me for whatever the mistake was that I

0:54

did, but he gave me that example of humor and leadership

0:58

and it stayed with me for many, many

1:01

decades. It sticks with you headless

1:04

chickens running around and finally getting to the vault.

1:08

That's what's been happening to us. And now we can bring you Tim

1:12

Gard's video a conversation around

1:15

humor and humor in the workplace and humor in different

1:18

contexts, from rubber chickens all the way through

1:21

to do you drop a CIA helicopter into

1:25

an ocean. Well, hope that's wet your appetite

1:29

as much as it did mine for recording this. Enjoy.

1:42

Tim Gard. I have been a huge admirer

1:46

for years and I show your Ted Talk to just

1:50

about all my friends because I absolutely hose myself every time

1:54

I watch it. So thank you so much for coming on the

1:57

Exponential Leadership podcast and talk to us a little bit about

2:00

humor and crises and leadership. So welcome,

2:03

Tim. Thank you. Thanks for inviting me. I've been looking forward to this

2:07

for a long time and it's good to just be able to spend some time

2:11

and chat with you. Yeah, I feel like I'm

2:14

honored because I get to spend time with.

2:19

Way. Just for the listeners that didn't watch

2:23

our drama for the last hour, trying to get everything up and running.

2:29

I'd show Tim a little chicken in the break

2:33

because Tim's known for these itty bitty chickens that he talks about

2:37

and is part of his speech. So if you get around to watching do

2:41

watch Tim on his Ted Talk. But talking about

2:44

technology and humor, tim, I'm sure technology goes wrong a lot when you're out on the road

2:53

and speaking gigs and so on. How have you used

2:56

humor to sort of take the sting out of it?

3:01

Well, it's interesting now that whether

3:04

it's the technology or if I've been on stage somewhere and had

3:08

something happen, a lot of times it's luck is preparation

3:12

meeting know, I fell off a stage several

3:16

years ago and had a very large

3:19

stage in North Dakota and fallen off and hit the floor. And the audience

3:23

is actually laughing about it, and all of a sudden they stop laughing as if

3:27

on cue. And in that silence I said, and now I'll take questions

3:31

from the floor and they all burst out laughing again as if I'd

3:34

done it on purpose. And what had happened was just several

3:38

months before that event, we'd been at a training, a national

3:42

speakers association training, and the speaker that was on stage,

3:45

a really great speaker, lou Heckler, had been walking backwards on

3:49

stage. There was a hole in the stage, and he fell right through it,

3:53

and he just kept talking. And, I mean, it was just nothing threw

3:57

him off. And I looked at my friend Scott Friedman sitting next to me and

4:00

I said, what would you say if that happened to you? And we came up

4:04

with our best line, and his was, it's just a stage I'm going

4:08

through, and very good. Mine was now all these questions

4:11

from the floor. And so when it did happen, I was

4:15

prepared. It's that luck is preparation, meaning opportunity.

4:19

I was in Las Vegas, and there was a fire in the room

4:23

next to us. Somebody had sparked off, some magician had sparked something

4:27

and started to fire, and firemen ran into the coliseum,

4:30

into the humor, and there's about a thousand people stood in front of the stage,

4:34

throws his arms up like this, full fire regalia, and then runs off the other

4:37

way to the other room. And I said to the audience, did you see him

4:41

too? It's

4:44

knowing that things are going to go wrong and preparing for it is the best

4:48

way with technology. Now, we could have

4:52

small clips ready to go. That if something happened

4:55

where, say, you're having one of

4:59

your guest mic fails or something. You could actually put on a 22nd

5:03

clip of a comedy piece or the best of your

5:06

shows from prior audiences. But we could prepare

5:10

those things and have them ready just in case we need

5:14

them. And if it's funny, I think the audiences are a little bit

5:18

more forgiving than anything else, but it's finding

5:22

funny pieces that are good standalone, regardless of what

5:25

the topic is that you want to be ready for. So I would

5:29

say technology. I've watched speakers get up and

5:33

their PowerPoint will fail, and they don't know what to do. And I've told them,

5:36

if you wrote this program, you should know what

5:40

happened. You shouldn't be dependent on it

5:44

as a crutch. And so if PowerPoint goes out, you should be able to

5:47

keep talking. If your mic goes out, you should be able to

5:51

project for a while. I just believe that

5:55

we don't use it as an excuse to stop and that we prepare.

5:59

We have alternative ways that we can respond and be ready

6:03

for just almost anything. I think I think

6:06

for me, the most difficult one was I was doing my first Ted

6:10

talk, and within the first few

6:14

seconds, the clicker failed, so

6:17

it didn't move the right amount of slides. And by the time when I looked

6:21

up, I was trailing about four slides, and I kept on clicking, and then

6:24

it jumped ahead to two or three, and I went like, okay, so now

6:28

I'm ahead of my slides. And then

6:32

the mic started giving feedback on the speakers in the

6:35

room. So all of a sudden we have this huge feedback session.

6:39

So they rush up to me with another mic, shove me another mic in my

6:42

hand, but it's ted. You can't restart, you

6:45

roll. But when it gets edited, they edit the

6:49

bad bits out, except that that bad bit out. But

6:53

it now looks a bit weird because all of a sudden I'm standing there with

6:56

like a head mic, and the next moment I have one in my hand

7:00

and my slides are not matching up with where I am in my story.

7:07

But speaker, if you spend so much time on stage,

7:11

you roll with it. If you're talking about change, you can't be angry because

7:19

there's change experienced during your program. And

7:23

it's that you realize that nothing's going to be perfect and

7:26

that audiences are really pretty forgiving. I

7:30

think I think that it's

7:34

being as prepared as we can. I watched one guy one time where the

7:37

clicker was broken and his laptop is right on the stage on the podium

7:41

and he's got the clicker right in front of it. Instead of just reaching down

7:44

and pushing the advance on the laptop, he's sitting

7:48

there clicking it. The audience is hysterics, and he couldn't understand

7:52

why, but we have to laugh at ourselves.

7:55

And as CW. Metcalf said, laugh not with

7:59

ridicule, but with objectivity and acceptance of self. I

8:03

think it's really important talk about quotes. You

8:06

seem to riddle off quite a few

8:10

when I normally talk to you as well. My grandfather had one

8:14

which I liked, and he said, statistics are to be used like a

8:18

lamppost for

8:21

illumination, not like a drunk man uses it as a

8:24

crutch. Oh, that's really good. And

8:28

this industrialist in the US. That said, I can't remember the name. I'll have to

8:31

look it up, but it's one of my favorite quotes. Because it's just a case

8:35

of there are so many things we can use as other props or

8:38

things to prop our arguments up, but we

8:42

should aim for illumination, we should aim for insights.

8:46

And so when we're in a leadership role as well,

8:51

we tend to, I think, sometimes not realize the impact

8:55

we have on people's lives. What kind of situations have you been in? Because, I

8:58

mean, you also had leadership role in the military, but have you been

9:02

roles in situations where humor helped you?

9:05

Humor has helped a lot, I believe. And I'm trying to remember

9:09

who said it, that leadership isn't about getting people to do their job, it's

9:13

about getting people to do their best. Harvey McKay said

9:16

that, and to me, it's always been a way

9:20

of learning to let people find their

9:24

own way know, necessarily ordering them and making

9:28

them. When I was in the Navy, I was on the USS Midway,

9:31

which, if you or any of your watchers ever in the San Diego, out

9:35

in the harbor. It's sitting out there. The ships out there, I spent two years

9:39

on it was there when we evacuated Vietnam several years

9:42

ago. And I discovered, as probably so

9:46

many others have, that leadership and authority are two very

9:49

different things. You can tell people what to do

9:53

or you have people that would want to do their best for you

9:57

to accomplish the goal. I think

10:00

that when you finally realize that fact about the

10:04

leadership and authority being different, that

10:07

you're even more open to being able to laugh at yourself and

10:12

to be able to help people learn without chewing them out or being

10:16

angry with them. One of the best examples I have of that is I worked for

10:24

a gentleman that had been with USDA,

10:28

our Food and Nutrition Service, so Department of Agriculture, and there was a

10:31

TV show in Chicago that was called the Howdy Duty Show,

10:35

and it's a black and white kids show. And they were having a special

10:39

for Thanksgiving in the US. And they called

10:43

him up and they wanted a turkey to show on the display on the show.

10:46

And I don't know why they called him, but he

10:50

was tasked to go out to this turkey farm or turkey ranch or whatever and

10:53

get a turkey. And he didn't have a cage, he didn't have anything put it

10:56

on. He didn't know really what he was in for. So he put this giant

11:00

tom turkey in the trunk and then drove about, I don't know,

11:03

90 km back to the city. And in between the

11:07

farm and where he was going, the turkey died. And it

11:11

did not die well. And when he opened the trunk up, there was this dead

11:14

turkey and there was feathers and bile and everything from the inside of the

11:18

turkeys on the outside. And it smelt horribly. And he closed it and

11:22

took it back to the garage and parked it and was going to clean it

11:25

out the next day. And he said that when he went to go clean

11:29

it out, his boss had borrowed the car to go pick up one of the

11:32

undersecretaries of agriculture at the airport, not knowing what was in the

11:36

trunk, and opened up the trunk. And if it smelled bad before, it smelled

11:39

terrible now. And he looked at me and he had told me

11:43

this story because I had made a mistake. But he looked at me and he

11:46

said, tim, it's only stupid if you do it twice.

11:50

And it stuck with me all this time. I mean, he could have yelled at

11:54

me for whatever the mistake was that I did, but he gave me that example

11:58

of humor and it stayed with me for

12:01

many decades. It sticks with you. I

12:05

think what you're saying there is very interesting to me because I'm of the

12:09

firm opinion. Actually, I'm writing a whole chapter in my new book about it.

12:12

It's about leadership is a perspective. And

12:16

humor is that it is finding a different perspective

12:19

that nobody else is looking at because it's funny or because it's just

12:23

so completely off kilter. Yes, I mean, I

12:27

think that's so spot on. Humor is just combining

12:31

ideas that aren't normally associated together with

12:34

a positive or happy outcome. And the more

12:37

extreme the surprise, I think the bigger the

12:41

laugh. It's really all it

12:45

is. And I think sometimes people maybe work at it or try

12:48

so hard. But I think it's like even with problem solving,

12:52

as a leader, we often look at it's like somebody says, solve

12:56

this problem. Well, we have this much money and this many people, when they

12:59

should be going to the extremes, they should not look at just these

13:03

simple limitations, but look at an extreme, the most

13:07

bizarre solution and the most conservative. Somewhere in the

13:11

middle is the answer. And I think that's an example of using

13:14

humor problem solving in resolving

13:18

situations. I mean, you've seen me speak. I was having trouble with my

13:22

suitcase where I put my suitcase in the overhead, my carry on

13:25

bag wheels out and sometimes it didn't fit so I'd have to put it on

13:29

its side and then people would come behind me and move my bag

13:33

around so the wheels are out and then it wouldn't close. They tried to make

13:36

more room. So you saw the solution. I took a rubber chicken and I put

13:40

the chicken feet stick out of my bag so that when

13:44

somebody sees it in the overhead, there's two rubber chicken feet sticking out about so

13:47

far and they usually would grab the bag and bring it out so far and

13:51

see the chicken feet and just put it back. That solved

13:54

the problem. Instead of yelling at people or getting angry. It's an

13:58

example of using humor in problem solving. I think

14:02

that's also a very good thing. For instance, if you're in

14:06

a crisis, can you think of a situation

14:10

where emotions were running high and humor helped you

14:15

so sure. When we evacuated Vietnam,

14:21

I was enlisted rank and one of the things that had happened

14:24

was everybody wanted to leave Vietnam but nobody wanted to go back. And the

14:28

sky was literally full of helicopters and as they started

14:32

landing on our aircraft, mean people were scared

14:36

and we didn't know what to do. And we took people off the helicopter

14:40

and they had weapons on them and we were worried about I mean it was

14:43

just a very high, intense situation. And as the

14:47

flight deck got full, we started moving them down to the hangar bay. And when

14:51

the hangar deck got full, we realized there's a finite amount of

14:54

helicopters that we could bring on the ship.

14:59

It's like they're standing there, it's like we don't know what to do.

15:02

And I don't know who got credit for saying it, but they said, you know,

15:05

we could push them over the side as a joke.

15:08

And then he goes, well, we'll take the people off first, and that's what

15:12

we did. But what happened was we would land, take the people

15:16

out, emptied of all the other things, and then we'd push the helicopter over

15:20

the side and it saved hundreds of additional lives. It was start out

15:23

as a joke, it ended up saving a lot of

15:27

lives. And it's that extreme

15:31

that brought clarity to a situation where there was a really

15:34

positive situation, and it happened. We weren't the only ship that did

15:38

that. There were a lot of ships that did it. The only ones we weren't

15:41

allowed to push over the side, interestingly enough, were these new Cobra

15:45

gunships that looked everywhere the pilots looked, and then the Air

15:49

America or the CIA, the CIA

15:53

planes, we weren't allowed to push those over either. But

15:57

it was extreme, an extreme situation. And

16:01

humor helped. Humor helped. I

16:04

think growing up in South Africa,

16:08

you know what the situation used to be like there, the apartheid,

16:12

and I went through my own traumas with that, with friends of mine

16:15

that died and were basically discounted as being less than human.

16:18

And it was really horrible. But one of the things

16:22

that South Africans do is they have a vile sense of

16:26

humor. Doesn't matter how horrible it is, they'll make a

16:29

joke out of it. I remember you remember the Challenger,

16:33

right? Yes, I do. Within 48 hours, there were jokes

16:37

about that. There was a bus full of school kids when I was in my

16:40

final year in high school that drove into a dam and all the kids drowned

16:45

within a day. There were jokes about that.

16:49

You see that in times of extremes. People will find, even if it's

16:52

inappropriate, they'll make jokes about stuff

16:56

to try and find a coping mechanism.

17:01

You're not a stand up comedian. You're a humorist, as you tend to

17:05

say. So what would be your no go areas?

17:10

Well, we used to call it whistle. They call it whistling in the dark

17:14

or people deal with

17:18

terrible, terrible things in each their own ways. And

17:22

some people, there's so many sayings out there that there's something so

17:26

serious, we must laugh at them. There are so many things like that out there.

17:29

But it's funny, the minute there's a disaster, the

17:33

jokes appear within seconds. The extremes

17:37

on that, a lot of the comedians, they don't really pull any

17:41

punches, but the jokes pop out on that. I mean, there were COVID jokes almost

17:44

immediately when COVID hit. I mean, I think the first one I heard

17:48

was after COVID, we were going to have to get rid of a lot of

17:51

sayings. We're used to like, avoid it like the plague.

17:56

A lot of jokes came about, and I guess everybody has

18:01

their, I don't know, thresholds about where they won't go

18:05

after 911. There was jokes. I don't think any of

18:08

them had any bad. I mean, I'm just saying people dealt with that

18:12

and it was a terrible, terrible thing. And I would see those jokes

18:16

and those actually made me pretty upset. They almost made me

18:20

mad. And I realized that it's the same for everybody

18:23

that depending on I talk

18:27

about people, it's who's involved, if you're involved or not. You

18:31

hear a lot of the medical in the

18:34

medical practice, people tell jokes of survival because things are so intense they have

18:38

to deal with it. And if you're involved in medicine, then that's

18:42

acceptable. Law enforcement same way they see terrible,

18:46

terrible things, they tell jokes to deal with it. And if you're

18:49

part of that team or part of that group, you can it's when the

18:53

outsiders do it that I think it begins to cause

18:56

problems. And I think that sometimes the comedians

19:00

will tell jokes that are meant to get attention,

19:04

if anything else. And all they do is probably create more pain.

19:08

So for me, I go with this. I

19:11

don't want to ever use humor to diminish anyone. I always

19:15

think that we should use it to enhance and never diminish.

19:19

Now I will say we can laugh at ourselves.

19:23

I have a story about being the big sweaty guy in the middle seat.

19:27

I do tell jokes about myself and my size. But

19:31

I think that when we use it to hurt or to cause pain or diminish,

19:35

then it's too much. And that's the difference between what I

19:38

believe and what most comedians believe.

19:43

I just think that we've got to be careful how we use it and it

19:47

can cause a lot of damage. I just think it should be used to

19:50

enhance, and that's just my personal belief.

19:54

A comedian will tell you that nobody's off limits and no thing is off

19:57

limits. But I don't really follow

20:01

that philosophy. I think when we look at leadership, it's

20:05

also when we demean others or

20:09

diminish anyone. The impact on that is so much larger

20:13

because I normally tell the guys that I coach or the teams that I work

20:17

with, when you're in leadership role, if you open your mouth,

20:21

just imagine you've got a megaphone in front of it and it's going to hit

20:24

ten times as hard. And if you have that in your mind,

20:28

you should be able to sort of navigate a little bit and apologize when

20:31

you've upset someone. Because no matter how well intended things

20:35

are and what our motives were, when

20:39

the impact hits and it's negative, I think the best way is to just

20:43

apologize, apologize. And I think what happens is

20:47

the first of all is we need to assume the best. Assume the

20:51

best. And that happens if you don't use humor. If you

20:55

are really trying your hardest and you make mistakes, people will

20:58

assume the best. And then the newspapers call it absence

21:02

of malice, that there was no intent to cause

21:06

pain or mean example. Years ago, I

21:09

worked in an office in Kalispell, Montana, and somebody

21:13

put up a cartoon that said, missing dog, missing

21:17

left ear, three legs minus

21:20

tail, recently castrated answers to the name of

21:24

Lucky. Well, didn't know, but her dog was recently

21:27

missing. And so when they posted that she thought they were making fun

21:31

of her lost dog, we wouldn't know that if somebody didn't

21:35

say anything. And so sometimes we make

21:39

mistakes. And I do believe the if we apologize,

21:42

genuinely apologize, then hopefully

21:46

people will move on. I don't want people to be afraid to

21:50

use humor. I think it's so necessary now to

21:53

connect us. And at work, the

21:57

rules are differently, though. At home, you can walk away

22:00

if somebody says something you don't like, you walk away. At work if you do

22:03

that, it's called quitting. And so you've got to be aware of the fact

22:07

that if you're using humor inappropriately as a leader, the

22:11

ramifications can be large. And in the United States especially, we live in a

22:15

litigious society, people are liable to

22:18

get sued and want some financial renumeration because of a

22:22

mistake. So it's a level of awareness, but not fear,

22:26

I think. Not fear. I think

22:30

fear is also one of those. The moment people use the word

22:33

fear, I'm reminded of Dune Frank Herbert. Fear

22:37

is the little mind killer. It's little death.

22:42

And for creativity, I think

22:46

fear is the biggest killer of creativity. If we want to

22:49

have in a crisis, if we need to figure out

22:53

what needs to be done, we cannot introduce additional stresses.

22:57

Fear is one of the things that needs to be taken off the table as

22:59

soon as possible. The thing is, for me, when I was in

23:03

the military, there was a situation that was in.

23:07

I wasn't the officer commanding. I was the highest officer on duty at the

23:11

time. And we had some of the riots

23:15

in South Africa that broke out and was in Elspray, and it was

23:19

really bad because people were trying to get to work or

23:22

go home. Actually, it was late, but it was Saturday. They're going to want to

23:25

go home, and some people want to go to work. And the buses were being

23:29

boycotted. And so somebody

23:33

so I don't know what was going on. The police came to me, and Sergeant

23:36

Major just said, you know what? I need help. And I went like, the best

23:39

I can do is I've got three military bases I can put on standby, but

23:43

if those boys come in, they shoot first and ask questions later. It's

23:46

not going to happen. And so I got everybody on

23:50

standby and was trying to get the general officer commanding

23:54

to go like, hey, you're the boss of the theater. What am I supposed

23:57

to do here? How far do you want my help to

24:01

go? But what I was also doing at the time, I was in intelligence

24:05

services so even then I was a gadget

24:08

freak. So they put me in charge of sort of the it and

24:12

equipment side of things. So I was the one doing all the databases and getting

24:15

all the intel to sort of look nice on a graph kind of

24:19

thing and at the same time was also responsible for all the equipment. So

24:23

everything from the cars all the way through to all the

24:27

vehicles and all the

24:30

telescopes and the TVs attached to the telescope so you can look for like

24:33

2 miles, you can zoom it in and get it basically on one screen, that

24:37

kind of stuff. So I was playing with my gadgets a lot so I just

24:40

told my boys, you know what guys, as the

24:43

officer I'm in charge of that whole chain of command. It's fine, you can

24:47

go get the stuff, go get our stuff. And so they brought the stuff, we

24:51

set it up on different buildings and then we started

24:54

looking. And as we looked the first thing I saw, which has really stuck, stuck

24:58

with me all my life is this woman that stepped onto the bus

25:02

and as she stepped onto the bus she was petrol bombed.

25:06

And so that is the sort of thing that made to me. It's like

25:10

if that is the kind of thing we can

25:14

do as human beings to each other when

25:18

we devalue each other and that doesn't mean it's because of that.

25:22

There's not a racial thing. It was just an ideological difference.

25:25

And so for many years I sat with the thing that I

25:29

felt almost a sense of hatred towards the person that threw the petrol bomb.

25:33

And then somebody told me, you know what, but have you thought of a different

25:36

perspective and the guilt that person is

25:39

dealing with and that they won't be able to move

25:43

on? That's really interesting. I think that

25:46

people believe and think things at a certain

25:50

age and as you get older or as you learn

25:53

more, your attitudes change, but the actions that you

25:57

took will always be there. I'd never thought of it like

26:01

that. I think

26:04

that's very true. I think

26:08

that's as leaders we have to just be aware of

26:12

the responsibilities that we have and the things that we decide can have far reaching

26:16

effects. I mean, even if something as simple as firing someone

26:20

could result in massive

26:23

retaliation, there's just so many things anymore that we need to

26:27

be aware of and so many things that aren't funny.

26:30

But I think what happens is that if we only focus on

26:34

that then we lose the balance. I really

26:38

do. I think what that story brought home for me and

26:42

really sort of got me thinking about is that

26:45

forgiveness has a big role to play in leadership. It's not

26:49

just about forgiving others and the mistake for the mistakes they make because

26:53

people will make mistakes and we need to let go of that. Because that's the

26:56

way they're going to learn. But we also need to forgive ourselves for not being

26:59

perfect. And I think humor helps us to have a look at

27:03

those extremes and go like, what if this if what if I

27:07

took this to its ultimate conclusion? Is that funny at least?

27:11

Can I laugh at myself so I can get to forgiveness?

27:16

No, I understand. I remember we were

27:19

on board ship, and water was a

27:23

very big, really a big thing. We had water condensers

27:27

on the port side that were cold water. And on the starboard side,

27:31

on your right side, starboard is hot water, and on the port side

27:35

is cold water. And as the ship would go like this, then if

27:38

it went too far, if you were in the shower, you had to step out

27:41

of the shower because you'd either scal or get too cold.

27:45

Well, now I look back on it and here'd be a line of like nine

27:48

showers. And the ship would go like this. And it's like a dance of people

27:52

coming out and going back in, and you see all

27:55

this stuff and laugh about those

27:59

things. But one of the funniest things happened was they're always careful about

28:03

fresh water. And I remember that there's water down on the deck

28:07

and they were tasting it to see if it was fresh water or salt water

28:10

because they come from different pipes. And this chief petty officer was there,

28:14

was watching these guys that were fairly new tasting the watered salt.

28:17

No, it's fresh. And he said, Come with me. And we go up on the

28:20

deck up above, and one of the toilets had overflowed. And I

28:24

said, we should go tell him. He goes, no, they got to find those things

28:27

out for themselves. The lessons that we teach as leaders like that, I'm sure

28:35

that it made a bigger impact on him than it did if he would have

28:38

told him. But you're right. Everything from the little prank

28:42

like that all the way to the other side

28:45

would affect us. I agree with you. It would affect us differently

28:49

as we got older and about whether or not we can forgive

28:53

ourselves. I think it's a really valid

28:56

point. We talked about

29:00

leaders, but leaders lead people. So, I mean, leaders without followers

29:04

are I don't know what a voice in the

29:07

desert, they're alone.

29:12

But how do you find the funny as a team together? I mean,

29:15

let's throw crisis at someone, but

29:19

what can we do? Is any practical tips you can give us to

29:23

get humor in a team to be used to diffuse situations or

29:27

to help us just to get the endorphins flowing so we can do more creative

29:30

stuff? I think a lot of times what happens is

29:36

when there's a shared problem that they're solving and it brings

29:39

the team together against a problem, not against a

29:43

person, but against a problem is where maybe we. Can

29:46

see the absurdities in it. I

29:50

know I was, years ago, was consulting with a group where everybody

29:54

had had to have these new electronic organizers, and they'd been told they could no

29:58

longer have their date minders, where they actually wrote on them,

30:01

and they were taken away from the they had to have these electronic things, and

30:04

everybody was angry about it. And somebody posted a cartoon that had

30:08

Jurassic calendars where it had this Tyrannosaurus Rex with a

30:11

calendar, and it every day said, kill something and eat it. And then

30:15

he would exit off like that. And it was their way of protesting

30:19

together about these electronic calendars in a funny

30:22

manner instead of saying something they might regret.

30:26

And everybody they laughed about it. They still had to have their calendar

30:30

changes. But I think it can unite people

30:34

in dealing with situational stress.

30:37

I don't have one sitting here. But when I was a case worker, when I

30:41

was a welfare case worker, they had new policies all the time,

30:45

and we had to take the old policies and get rid of them and put

30:48

in new policies and have this mental floss that looks like put this little

30:52

thing over your head. It looks like you're pulling a string, like you're flossing your

30:56

brain out. We all had mental floss. When the new regulations came out,

30:59

we flossed out the old regulations. So altogether,

31:03

we laughed at the situational stressor together.

31:07

And I think it was really positive. It's just you have to be careful not

31:11

to use it against someone else who's enacting

31:14

you're not doing it against a person. It's more of a concept

31:18

or an idea. We just got to be really careful that when we use humor

31:22

to diminish anybody is usually when we start getting in

31:26

trouble at work. I think the first time I

31:29

saw a leader being made fun of was my dad.

31:34

Because growing up, as I said before, in South Africa,

31:38

we had a lot of farm workers that worked on the farm, that worked for

31:41

my dad. And in the evenings, it's tradition for

31:45

people to sit around a fire and talk about the day.

31:48

And so when you talk about the day, you tend to talk about all

31:52

the difficult things in the day. And my dad had a temper,

31:58

and he was quick to jump to conclusions, so

32:02

you can imagine what problems that would cause. And

32:05

so this quick temper, quick to jump to conclusions, which meant he

32:09

was always in a hurry somewhere and trying to get something done and get something

32:13

fixed. So they called him Nsietse,

32:18

which is basically like a little fly or like a fly. All

32:21

right. And then when I sort of got into

32:25

secondary school or high school, and I started

32:28

exhibiting certain similar behaviors, they called me insetsignani, which means

32:32

the little fly. And so you

32:36

would hear these stories in the evenings. I used to sneak out to the campfires

32:39

and just sit and talk to people. Because I grew up with Setswana being sort

32:43

of my first language. I spoke it a lot more

32:46

outside of the normal school group. It's called

32:49

It's of the Tswana people. And Setswana is the

32:53

language and it's mostly spoken in Botswana, which is the country. And

32:57

I grew up very close to that, about 60 km away from Gabarone, which is

33:00

capital city of Botswana. And so you would sit around the fires

33:04

and people would tell these stories and the always thought that

33:08

there's a funny sounding one and that is the name for

33:12

a scooter because it's called a setu

33:15

two, because that's the noise it makes in languages where you have certain words that are

33:25

just funny sounding. What would you say except for

33:29

itty bitty chickens? Because we already know that word is funny. What other words do

33:33

you find funny? Well, the thing is, a lot of

33:36

times people mix up words. There's

33:40

malaprops, there's words like I was saying, my mom

33:44

used to say, my mom always mixed up words like we're driving down the

33:47

road and my dad almost hit another car and my mom yells at him, you

33:51

are such an erotic driver. She would get words that

33:55

sounded alike. And I'll never forget mom

33:59

had gotten really sick in the hospital and she's laying there and the

34:02

doctor was doing intake and says to my mom, are you allergic to anything? And

34:06

my mom goes, I'm allergic to hallucinogens.

34:09

It's like, where do you get hallucinogens? And she goes, well,

34:13

when you want them, you can find them. And the doctor goes, I think you

34:16

mean analgesics, Mrs. Gart. She mixed the words up.

34:20

But some words are just funnier than other

34:24

words. It's like when I'm telling a story,

34:28

if I'm building a funny story, you take what really happened

34:32

and then you add a little bit to make it funnier. So

34:35

if something happened in Idaho, Boise, Idaho isn't

34:39

a funny word, but Walla Walla, Idaho is a

34:43

funnier word. We might do something like that

34:47

to aid in the story. Some words are just naturally funnier

34:51

than others. Onomatopoeia is when a word sounds

34:55

like the action that it describes. I talk about

34:59

having ponskum, putting a pond scum in and it came out of my mouth.

35:02

Well, it exploded.

35:06

That's a better word for the story. Well, I think that we find

35:10

the funnier words or sometimes we hear funny words like that,

35:14

sometimes we make them up. I'll never

35:18

forget driving with my friend in high school and I hear this

35:22

and I go, what was that? And police lights went on behind us.

35:25

So he saw the police car behind us when we were out driving around and

35:29

he goes and then the lights came on. And

35:32

anytime after that, whenever I saw a police car. It

35:36

sticks in your mind sometimes the funny words,

35:41

we make funny words for funny things like that. But I just think some words

35:45

are funnier and based on where you're mean,

35:49

if you're in Australia, they have a lot of really amazing

35:52

sounding words for their cities and towns. Walla Walla is probably

35:55

pretty passive. It just depends upon, I guess, the

35:59

language and things like that. I love the German

36:03

language that when they don't have a word for something that's something new,

36:07

they make it up. They have a new made up word. I love

36:10

that. But anyway, I just think some words are funnier than

36:14

others, and I guess that's up to each person.

36:17

I think the Dutch also

36:21

do that to the Belgians, in a way.

36:25

The Dutch will take whatever the word is and just anglicize it all right.

36:29

So basically take an English word. Oh, it's already an existing word. Oh,

36:32

we'll just modify it a little bit so it sounds Dutchish, and then we'll use

36:36

it the same thing with French words. I mean, when the French

36:39

invaded and came over here with Napoleon, and Napoleon's

36:43

brother ruled for a while, it was just a case of, okay, we adopt some

36:46

of the words, and when the Germans came, the same thing happened.

36:49

But the Belgians, they make up their own words, and

36:53

the Dutch sometimes find it very funny. So they will make jokes, things

36:57

like, so what do you call a helicopter in

37:01

Belgium? And the answer is a flying

37:04

windmill. So they make these kind of funny jokes, and I think it's also become

37:13

a thing. I don't know if you have rivalries in the US.

37:18

But we have rivalries here, for instance, between Amsterdam and Rotterdam, and we have

37:21

rivalries between people living north of the rivers and south of the

37:25

rivers. And, I mean, I'm sure in the US. You have the Midwest and you

37:29

have the Deep South and all those kind of things. Do you

37:32

think there are places or associations we

37:36

shouldn't. You know,

37:41

this is the really funny part about it, is that people often make

37:45

fun of things they don't understand or peoples that they don't understand.

37:48

And often when we tell jokes that are put

37:52

down, someone like there was people used to tell stories about

37:55

blonde hair, people with blonde hair, you can substitute almost

37:59

anybody, any negative, racial, ethnic, whatever it is, into those

38:03

places. And what you're doing is basically

38:07

you're putting people down, and the humor

38:11

is diminishing them. And I think that you're always going to have

38:15

people like, I grew up in Montana, we tell North Dakota jokes, they tell

38:18

Montana jokes. They're just two different states. In the

38:22

just there's always rivalries, there's sports rivalries.

38:26

There's all those things like, you know, the thing is

38:30

that at work, when we get into any sort of an extreme type of

38:34

a situation where you have some extreme rivalries,

38:39

I think that's something that we maybe want to stay away from a little

38:42

bit at work, because people can have

38:46

such extreme beliefs or extreme feelings on

38:49

that. But again, it's that rule of thumb is that

38:53

if it's used to diminish somebody, it could be used to diminish

38:57

anyone. And I just think we've got

39:00

to really be careful and aware of that. And that's

39:04

just my personal belief. I know that

39:08

when I was in the Navy, we told marine jokes. We told stories

39:12

about the Marines, but if we were in a fight and we wanted help, there

39:15

was nobody. We wanted more on our side than we would the.

39:19

So there's good nature there's.

39:23

I was in Hong Kong one time when I was in the Navy, and we

39:26

were actually in a bar fight, like you'd see on some

39:30

know or somebody's throwing a chair through the window. It was one of those

39:34

big bar fights, and we were in uniform, and

39:37

there was two or three guys there that were Marines, and I was in the

39:40

Navy, and one of the guys went to hit me. And one of the other

39:43

marines goes, what are you doing? And he goes, well, he's a squid, which is

39:46

a derogatory term for a sailor. And he goes, yeah, but he's one of our

39:50

squids, so they let me

39:55

know. I just think that you've got to be really careful with that as leaders and fostering

40:02

that it just can

40:05

cause negative situations, I think,

40:09

in the workplace, and I just think we've got to really be aware of

40:12

it. I think one of the things for me is when I see things like

40:16

that, especially when it becomes really derogatory, is usually there

40:20

is a misunderstanding or a fear

40:23

or a know. I'm married to my husband for a few years already, and we're very happily

40:32

married, but when you say that at work, depending which country you're in,

40:35

it can be quite problematic. I mean, it wouldn't be something I would say

40:39

in Russia, for instance, or I'll be careful in the Middle East

40:45

because I also need to respect the environment that I'm in.

40:49

Sure. That does make

40:52

me more sensitive to people making jokes

40:56

about homosexuality, for instance, or about

41:00

transsexuals and stuff like that. So anybody that's different, so it doesn't

41:03

matter if it's the color of your skin or where you're from or your sexual

41:07

orientation, anything like that. The moment we make jokes about those, I feel

41:11

that as leaders, we need to understand that. We

41:14

need to figure out what's behind it. It is not about the joke

41:18

per se. That's the problem. It's about helping to foster

41:22

understanding. There's a thing going on right now I've been

41:25

watching is different comedians are fighting with different comedians

41:29

over trans humor. And humor

41:32

comedians are making fun of trans comedians, and

41:36

trans comedians are making fun of heterosexual straight.

41:40

And somebody asked me in another podcast about it, and I said to

41:43

me, if these are comedians and they're making fun of each other, each

41:47

has the opportunity to do that. It's when we do it

41:51

at work or when we do it to cause pain or

41:55

stress outside of it. I mean I think some comedians really

41:58

can change a level of awareness. Others

42:02

really suppress it. But I think at work we've got to be

42:05

really aware of the fact that most of those jokes

42:09

come from lack of knowledge or lack

42:13

of understanding. And I just don't think

42:17

there's no positive outcome. I can't think of any positive outcome

42:21

that can come from it. But I do think talking

42:24

about it is important and understanding is important.

42:29

But we often make fun of those things we don't understand

42:33

and I don't know, I just think it's something

42:36

to really be careful about as leaders because people watch us, they watch

42:40

the leaders to know what they should or shouldn't do and they explain their

42:44

behaviors often by watching leaders.

42:49

That's my rule of thumb. Don't use humor to diminish anyone.

42:53

It's just not worth it. It's not worthwhile I think one of the things that

42:57

has worked for me is when I use not

43:00

humor but the impact it has

43:04

I wouldn't want to say it as a weapon, but basically it becomes that. We

43:08

basically say, well that was really painful

43:12

and say, well I'm sure that's not what you intended. I'm sure it's supposed to

43:15

be funny but let's figure out how can we make it really

43:19

funny? So it's more

43:22

like give you a hand. But it

43:26

gets the point across as well that sometimes things are not okay to

43:30

use. It's just some completely different tack. I

43:33

was wondering what is the book

43:37

that you recommend or buy most for other people.

43:43

For understanding? What is your favorite

43:47

book as a. Gift as a know?

43:50

It's funny you should say Dune. That Dune was one of my all time favorite

43:54

books by Frank Herbert. That was one of them. I think that one

43:58

of the comedy books. I love the Steve Martin book Born Standing

44:01

Up. That is really

44:05

one of my favorites. I'm a very voracious

44:09

reader. I find that the more that I can read, the better a

44:13

leader I become. I think the more well read we read,

44:17

the more well read and learn to speak. But

44:20

the more we read and share I think

44:24

that is really important. I can't stress that enough. I'm

44:28

always looking for new books. I used to just read science fiction

44:32

and trade books about the comedy. But I

44:36

really do try to expand that out.

44:40

I do kind of like some of the

44:44

I think that science fiction has always been my favorite that's out

44:48

there. I do like a lot of that. But

44:53

it's funny. I don't think I have any one

44:56

author that I just read

45:00

anymore. I'm just always looking for something different. What about you? What

45:04

do you like to read? Well there's this book by Douglas Stone and

45:07

Sheila Heen from Harvard and the actually have

45:11

a consultancy company called Triad Consulting and

45:15

so when I was at Harvard for a summer program,

45:18

they were my lecturers on negotiation, specifically Negotiation,

45:22

about the emotional side of negotiation. And they had a book then called

45:26

Difficult Conversations, but they brought out another one called thanks for the Feedback,

45:30

because it's always difficult to accept other people's point of

45:34

view of you. So I thought, Well, I have to read a

45:37

little bit about this. And so Douglas and Sheila took me under the wing and

45:41

they took me on a writer's workshop with them in Newport. And it's

45:45

been an amazing sort of discovery journey of my own

45:49

writing. Wow. And so although their book itself

45:52

is not about writing the structure and the way that they've

45:56

composed it and the way that the use storytelling to illustrate

46:00

points, I just think it's a fascinating way in which they wrote a business

46:04

book. And so for me, on the one hand, it's great as a read

46:07

and content, but on the other side, it's also great as an example of

46:11

structure. There's a book I'm reading, a book called The

46:14

Gift of Fear by Gavin, and it talks about

46:18

how people seem to think that some folks are

46:21

intuitive or that police are

46:25

psychic. What it is more than anything is the body. We give off

46:29

meta messages. The words we say are the messages.

46:33

How we say the and how we enforce them is the meta

46:36

messages. And that you're able to read or police especially can

46:40

read when somebody may be a potential crook just by

46:44

seeing how they act and react. But it's been fascinating

46:47

reading. It's called The Gift of Fear by Gavin. But I would tell you Dean

46:51

Coons is probably my all time favorite author.

46:55

One of the books he had I was trying to learn I've

46:59

written several books on humor, and I was trying to

47:02

learn how to write funny. And I was reading he wrote a book

47:06

that really made an eye opener for me. And the line in it

47:10

was the water

47:14

was as clear as a baby's conscience. And I

47:17

thought to myself, that's an example of a sentence that you would read in a

47:21

book that's very profound, but it's creepy to

47:25

say in written

47:28

humor or in written form. It's better than it is in spoken

47:32

form, if you get my meaning. And that was a real eye

47:35

opener for me. But Dean Coons is one of my favorite authors. If I had

47:38

an opportunity to ever meet an author, it would be Dean

47:42

Coons. Without a doubt. I think if I can recommend something to you

47:45

it's actually a TV series. It's not a read. And

47:49

that is the Time Traveler's wife. It's a new

47:53

series. It's out now. And I have just enjoyed it so

47:57

much because it has humor, because you can imagine what kind of situations you can

48:00

end up in if you sort of wink out of existence one place and

48:04

arrive in another naked so you can imagine

48:07

situations that causes I'll check it out. And the

48:11

on the other hand, is time travel, which is Sci-Fi, which is something

48:15

I love, too, and then the human aspect, which is about their

48:18

relationship. And I just thought they're weaving it together so

48:22

well. I've never sort of fallen

48:26

in love with a TV series more than this, I think, and it's really weird

48:30

for me. We've been watching on Netflix, we've been

48:33

watching Emily in Paris, and again, I'd recommend it.

48:37

It's an American woman that is working in Paris

48:41

that doesn't speak French. And seeing the humor and how they

48:45

all interact has just been so much fun watching.

48:49

But it's something what we do is my wife

48:53

will have some shows she wants me to watch, and I'll have some shows that

48:56

I want her to watch, and we kind of learn about

49:00

each other like that. So I'm watching Emily in Paris for her, and I hate

49:03

to say it, but I've really enjoyed I've really enjoyed

49:07

is it's Strange. I never watched period dramas till I met my

49:11

husband, and that's something that he enjoys. And so I've

49:15

become a fan of Downton Abbey, which I never thought would happen.

49:19

And that's another of Sophia's favorites. It sounds like we have a lot in common,

49:22

my friend. That is one of my wife's favorites,

49:26

too. If I were to ask you who do you

49:30

admire and why, what would you say? Who do

49:33

I admire? Boy, that is

49:37

know, I was really a

49:41

big fan of Kennedy until I started finding

49:45

out john F. Kennedy until I started finding out a lot

49:48

about the things that we really did not

49:51

know that much about him.

49:56

But it's funny.

50:01

That is a really tough question anymore, I got to be honest with you. But

50:05

let's take Kennedy. I mean, okay, his extracurricular activities in the Netherlands,

50:09

people would just go know, so

50:13

it's a different society, but what is your mind about

50:17

him? I felt that he was truly

50:20

committed towards the country

50:24

that towards America. He said, ask not

50:28

what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your

50:31

country. That he was truly committed to

50:35

being creating an America

50:39

that was united together. And

50:42

it's been a long time since we've had somebody like that. And so

50:46

he's somebody that I really always admired. Desmond

50:53

Tutu is another one that I really admired.

50:57

I thought he had a fantastic sense of

51:00

humor. I think

51:04

that it's funny. There are different reasons, I guess. I

51:08

admire people, too, that Winston Churchill, to me,

51:12

was one of the greatest know, I go back and listen to

51:15

speeches from the great speakers to find out what it

51:19

is about their ability to speak and

51:24

what they spoke about. I mean, there's different things, I guess I admire about

51:28

different had. John Wayne was a

51:31

famous American actor,

51:35

and when he was dying of cancer, they

51:39

could have extended his life a little bit, or

51:42

he could have gone through these trials that helped him understand about cancer drugs, and

51:46

he accepted the trials and it shortened his life, but it helped other

51:50

people. When I was reading about that, I greatly

51:53

admired that. And so I guess it

51:57

would be different things like that for different reasons,

52:01

but a lot of different people.

52:05

I think for me, one

52:08

person that stood out was my grandfather. And he had some flaws which very few people knew

52:16

about. But by that contrast

52:20

of what I admired in him and his flaws, what I admired in him

52:23

became even more special. And so I

52:27

don't mind if people admire flawed people, because I think flawed

52:31

people have some of the most interesting stories and

52:35

have the most wonderful things they've

52:38

discovered in their lives. I like that when I go back and look

52:46

at different people all through again,

52:50

I just read an awful lot. I think you're right. I think that people with

52:54

flaws really do are some of the most interesting people.

52:57

And I would say my dad had probably

53:01

about an 8th degree education, and yet he became almost

53:05

as high up in the Air Force as you can

53:09

know. When he retired and was able to do so much,

53:13

he quit school to work on the farm and then joined the Air Force.

53:18

I guess people like that, that he just always

53:21

went to work. I talk to people now where they're saying

53:25

things that are missing in the country today and in leadership. And it's that my

53:29

father used to say that either had a job or you were

53:32

looking for a job, and he was like that either got up and went to

53:36

work or he was looking for a job.

53:40

And I think that this work ethic and this about coming to

53:43

work and spending a full day, and

53:47

if your work day is nine to five, that you get there at 830 and

53:51

you leave when everything else is closed at five and then go home about

53:55

whenever. And I just think that we're beginning to lose that.

53:58

And I mean, that's worldwide. I don't see that people have the work

54:02

ethics that my parent,

54:06

my dad, did. When I turned 21, I was working

54:10

part time in Montana. My dad worked at a Camper manufacturing

54:13

place in Kalispell, and I turned 21, went out and got drunk,

54:17

and the next day I was a mess at work and I went home

54:21

early. And on Saturday my dad woke me up and took me to

54:24

work. And we didn't punch in, though we worked all day

54:28

long. I didn't complain. He told me to do it. I went and worked.

54:32

And when we got done on the way home, I asked him what we were

54:35

doing and he said, you did not put in a full day work on Wednesday.

54:38

You cheated your employer, and you don't ever do that again. And so we'd gone

54:42

in on Saturday and worked to pay that back, and I've never forgotten

54:46

it. That's work

54:50

ethic. I appreciate you asking that question. I hadn't

54:53

thought about that for a long time. I do admire that about him,

54:57

and I'm glad that he taught me my work ethic. I tell my clients

55:01

I'll do anything short of committing a felony to get there on time to do

55:04

a speech. That's from my dad. That's work ethic for you, I

55:08

guess. I think I got the same in

55:11

perseverance. I went through my

55:15

whole primary and high school career

55:19

without ever being one day off from school.

55:23

So when I had chickenpox, I did my homework in the library,

55:29

things like that. It was just ridiculous, but I just felt I had to do

55:32

it, and that's something that stayed with me, and it was something as well, I

55:36

think, that my grandfather taught me. And that is

55:40

when the chips are down and you don't

55:43

know what the next step is, just pitch up.

55:47

First thing is pitch up the figure out what's the next step, and you

55:51

might not see the whole road. Okay? But if you pitch

55:55

up, you're going to learn something. If you pitch up, you're going to find something

55:58

new. And that's what school became for me. It became a journey of discovery.

56:02

I had amazing teachers that

56:06

always challenged me to take a different perspective and look at something

56:10

slightly different, and I think that's helped me.

56:13

I totally get it when you talk about it. Aren't you

56:17

amazed, though, when you run into people that don't get it? I had an employee

56:20

that worked for me. I had three employees at one tim, and everybody came in

56:24

00 in the morning, and he came in about 915 every day. And

56:27

00. And so the

56:31

next day came, and again about 915. And I said, well, you

56:34

have daycare problems. Is there something going on? He said no.

56:38

I said, if you come into work late tomorrow, you're

56:42

00, and the day after that, he

56:45

came in at 915. And so I said, I'm going to start you at 930.

56:49

And he said, okay. So the next day came in at 945. And

56:53

I said to him, I said, how far away do you live from

56:57

where our office is? And he said, It's about 15 minutes. And he said, what

57:01

time do you leave? And he said, when am I supposed to be to work?

57:03

00. I

57:07

said, well, it's not possible to get

57:11

here on time. He said, well, that's travel time. Travel time is

57:14

a part of work. In his mind, he thought that travel time was a part

57:18

of work, and I ended up firing him. But he did not have he had

57:21

zero work ethic. And I think that I

57:25

worked really hard to try to teach it to him. And I think that's something

57:29

that as leaders and supervisors, if you're able to teach

57:32

that, more power to you. I think that this work

57:35

ethic, people will follow it for a while, but I think they default

57:39

back to what they really believe. It's until you convince them

57:43

about what a job really is, that maybe

57:47

then they'll make some differences. I'm not sure.

57:50

I think it's interesting because my dad was a big time and

57:54

motions person, sort of like time and motion studies were big in

57:57

the was sort of his thing.

58:00

And everything on the farm was timed

58:04

so from how long it took to plant something and then

58:08

water it and then move on to the next one, trying to calculate what the

58:12

optimal amount of things that somebody could do in a day and so on.

58:15

And then he would put into practice, he would do it himself to see if

58:19

he could actually do it in the time. And when he

58:22

couldn't, he sort of like, adjusted the time and then gave a little bit more

58:25

leeway and so on, and then he set the task for the day. So everybody

58:29

had a full day's work, and he had determined

58:32

what a full day's work was. But it wasn't tied

58:36

to Tim, it was tied to the work. So

58:40

for me, being on time has never been something

58:44

that I value highly. Getting the job done has. So

58:47

at the end of the day, if the job is not done, then I have

58:50

00 in the morning and

58:54

they leave at three in the afternoon, and I know the job is done and

58:57

is done well, I never bat an eyelid. And

59:01

it's interesting how I recently read an article about

59:05

that. The time perception is something that has a

59:08

genetic component, and that not all of us

59:12

perceive time and the flow of time in the same way. So for some of

59:16

us, like me, when I start talking to someone, or when I have a

59:20

lovely conversation, or I'm reading a nice book, or just I'm busy with

59:24

anything, all right, time just sort of disappears.

59:27

It's one of the first things that just disappear for me. And I might go

59:31

like, okay, it's five minutes to go. Yeah, I can just quickly type this last

59:34

paragraph and then I look up and it's 20 minutes later.

59:39

What happened to the time? And I

59:43

appreciate that. I mean, my nephew Morgan

59:46

works for Amazon, and they really don't care when you come to work and

59:50

when you leave, as long as your work is I actually I get the concept.

59:57

I just wonder how many employees are self

1:00:01

motivated to a degree to be able to do that.

1:00:07

Steel, sharpens steel, having people around each

1:00:11

other, working together. I think it's a

1:00:15

real positive thing. But what you're saying is I think there has to be

1:00:18

a leeway for people like you. What you're saying that I

1:00:22

think that it is counterproductive to

1:00:26

hold them to a time rather than a production. It's very

1:00:29

interesting. I'm glad you told me that. Yes. For me,

1:00:33

I would sometimes work 1214 16 hours straight.

1:00:37

And I'll enjoy it. I'll take a break, I'll even take a nap in between.

1:00:41

But I'll keep going because there's a goal that I want to

1:00:45

achieve. There's something I want to reach. I need to get that bit done.

1:00:48

Otherwise for me, it's just not done until it's

1:00:52

done. But I can't expect people that work for me to

1:00:56

work 16 hours, days. No, I understand.

1:01:00

And for me, my other two employees, I couldn't explain to them why they

1:01:03

had to be there when the other person didn't. So I mean, it's an interesting

1:01:07

paradox. But the world of work has

1:01:11

changed. And as leaders, if you're just holding to old

1:01:14

patterns, I believe that you are destined

1:01:18

to die of dinosaur failure. You've got to

1:01:22

learn to grow. I'm with you on that one. I think

1:01:25

change is the meteor that's coming at all of us and we need

1:01:29

to make sure that we survive that. I think what's something you say about all

1:01:33

this almost like discipline. It's something that I remember from the military was

1:01:37

something that was really difficult for me to fit into. I did, but it was

1:01:40

gard because it wasn't natural for me to do that. But

1:01:44

what would you say is the difference in for me it was time. But what

1:01:47

is the difference in humor between military

1:01:51

personnel and civilians? Well,

1:01:56

with the military, if you didn't follow the rules, eventually it would catch up to

1:02:04

you. I don't care if you didn't keep your room

1:02:08

clean. There are just certain things that weren't allowed. It was an

1:02:12

automatic thing. But what's funny,

1:02:17

I don't know if there is a major difference between the humor. I do think

1:02:20

that in the military it was much more respectful

1:02:24

that right now in private industry, anything

1:02:28

goes. I have my own barriers. But in private

1:02:31

industry, if you have the right of free speech,

1:02:35

then you only have the responsibility of free speech. You

1:02:39

say what you want, but you have to be responsible.

1:02:42

People might get up and say something. I think the Dixie

1:02:46

Chicks at one time had talked about the then president negatively

1:02:50

and it affected their sales. That's the

1:02:53

right of free speech. With the responsibility in the military,

1:02:57

you wouldn't have gotten away with it. You don't have that freedom. I was telling my wife,

1:03:05

now, see, I'm admitting this to the world. When I was I kept

1:03:08

track of I kept the muster list on the base that we were on and

1:03:12

I had to sign them. So there was like 8000 people floor

1:03:16

were AWOL something else. And I turned those in every day.

1:03:20

And after about a week or two. I wondered if anybody read them. So I

1:03:23

started signing them. Like Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck and Peter

1:03:27

Pan. And so for a year I signed them

1:03:31

with made up names like that. And

1:03:36

it didn't catch up to me until like years and years later I'd gotten out

1:03:39

of the Navy, and they were actually

1:03:43

pardoning people that had deserted during the Vietnam War.

1:03:47

And they were going back to these old muster lists to see who had deserted

1:03:51

and the found documents signed by Peter Pan

1:03:54

and Donald Duck. And I'm sure that they did not find that amusing at

1:03:58

all. I'd kind of forgotten about doing it, but

1:04:03

I was telling Sophia about it. She goes, well, what would have happened if you'd

1:04:06

have been stayed in? I said, I think I would have gotten in a lot

1:04:09

of trouble for that. But I think in the

1:04:12

military you have a bunch of young kids like me

1:04:16

who stay in for a period of time and then leave, and we do certain

1:04:20

things like that. And I think that we

1:04:24

just have to be in the military. You have to be aware. You did not

1:04:27

make fun of commanding officer, not at least in writing. There were certain things I guess you didn't

1:04:35

do, but you just didn't have all the freedom, you didn't have

1:04:39

all the freedoms you do now. I remember when I was

1:04:42

in training, the humor was very much us and them.

1:04:46

It's sort of the civilians versus the military. And the

1:04:50

military was always batter in a way, but I think it

1:04:54

also create that sense of us and them, also creates a sense of family.

1:04:58

So when you leave the military, the are certain boundaries that fall

1:05:01

away, and now you have to rediscover those for yourself. But you

1:05:05

always have a sense of belonging. And I think that's one of the things that

1:05:08

I'm missing at the moment in work, to get that

1:05:12

organizational sort of citizenship behavior from employees, you need that

1:05:16

sense of belonging. Yesterday I told somebody, you know what?

1:05:21

Belonging is not a KPI, it's a feeling.

1:05:25

No, I think you're very true. I think I missed being in the military. I

1:05:28

mean, you missed the comrade that

1:05:32

it is us. I think that a lot of places

1:05:36

it's funny police department, they have

1:05:40

a comradeship, the military. You can have different

1:05:43

businesses where people really have a

1:05:47

sense of identity as a result of that business.

1:05:51

I do believe that that's important, and I really believe that if you can

1:05:55

as a leader inspire that, then I think you've got

1:05:59

something bigger than without it. If

1:06:02

people have a sense of belonging to something,

1:06:07

I don't see it a lot in different industries. But

1:06:13

I do see it though, several of the companies that I've worked for over the

1:06:16

years have just had they just have an

1:06:20

incredible sense of belonging. Anytime fitness is a group in

1:06:23

the US. That I've worked for several times, that the owners

1:06:27

and the franchisees are just an incredible sense of belonging. And I

1:06:31

think that that's something that leaders should strive for.

1:06:36

I think it's important. Well, there's an organization I

1:06:40

recently interviewed where the sense of belonging

1:06:43

is quite severe. And I interviewed

1:06:47

the guy that was charged of the Paul SMUR prison in South Africa, where

1:06:51

Nelson Mandela was for the last few years before he was released.

1:06:55

But he was not in charge of the prison itself. He was in

1:06:58

charge of the most notorious gang in South Africa in

1:07:02

prison called the Numbers Gang. And they've been around for 200

1:07:05

years. And so what kind of governance do

1:07:09

you put into place? Absence of law. And

1:07:13

so it was very fascinating to talk to him and see how they've actually

1:07:17

created stricter governance and

1:07:20

more investigative procedures before

1:07:24

they sanction someone, because their sanction is the ultimate sanction. You don't wake up

1:07:28

the following day. And so

1:07:32

they have three sections, the one which they call the HR, but I would sort

1:07:36

of say it's corporate governance and HR. They do the investigations,

1:07:40

but you also have the sales and operations, which is another one, which

1:07:43

26 is sales and operations. 27 is

1:07:47

sort of governance and HR, and the

1:07:51

28 are the leaders and the enforcers. So they're the ones that

1:07:55

make the final decision if you're going to live or die. And so

1:07:58

I spoke to welcome Bitboy because he was in charge of the

1:08:02

28. So basically in charge of 2700

1:08:06

gang members in prison, in a prison that can take

1:08:09

supposedly four and a half thousand people, but have

1:08:12

7000 inmates. So you can imagine how stretched

1:08:16

the personnel are. They run short on personnel, and they don't have enough

1:08:19

capacity, so the gangs run riot. And I just

1:08:23

find it fascinating. They said that the 20 eigth

1:08:27

take eight days to make a decision. The 26 is six days, the 27,

1:08:31

seven days. The 28 take eight days. Said, why? Is it because we have to

1:08:34

consider all the facts that are coming in from all the different aspects of

1:08:38

the our personal

1:08:41

sort of like the interests in the we have to look

1:08:45

at all the interests across the different parts of

1:08:48

the gang, but it's also within the different elements before we make that

1:08:52

final decision, because it's an irrevocable decision.

1:08:56

And I just thought if we looked at what

1:09:00

the impact would be on employees when

1:09:04

we fire someone, what a different

1:09:07

world that that would know. Sophie and I were

1:09:11

watching a movie, and I think it was called The Last Duel, and it had

1:09:14

to do with if you're familiar with it, it's medieval times

1:09:18

that somebody if you made a claim against one of the

1:09:22

knights, then the two knights would duel, and

1:09:26

whoever won, then the families would die or something.

1:09:29

It was that it's the ultimate thing that if you were going to accuse

1:09:33

somebody of something, then you would have a duel to the death. And if you

1:09:37

won, then your family got to live and the others died. And, I

1:09:41

mean, it was pretty intense. If you get intense, it's called the last duel,

1:09:44

incredibly. But I mean, if that were the case, I think people would be a

1:09:47

lot more hesitant to be throwing around

1:09:50

casual aspersions of someone's

1:09:54

character than they certainly do today. That's very

1:09:57

true. Yeah, that is true. I think another one for me is the

1:10:01

Tswana where I grew up. They're

1:10:04

not a tribe or tribes that are

1:10:08

really vicious or

1:10:13

aggressive. I don't know if you ever saw the movie about Seretze

1:10:16

Kama, president of Botswana. He's one

1:10:20

of the but anyway, he married a white

1:10:24

woman and the English didn't like that. So they got the South African government to

1:10:28

get involved and eventually he was banished. He came back later

1:10:31

and many years later. And his family is one of the, let's say, the big

1:10:35

part of the ruling families that tend to run Botswana. And the

1:10:38

Botswanas think about things slightly differently

1:10:42

because the elders of the crises are the ones that

1:10:45

decide on ultimate sanction, on anything. So

1:10:49

if you do any kind of transgression, the

1:10:53

elders will decide your punishment.

1:10:57

And the punishment can be quite severe

1:11:01

for Westernized sentiments. I know somebody that was

1:11:04

accused once of theft, and when he was found guilty of theft,

1:11:08

they rolled him over a drum and basically started hitting with a cane from

1:11:12

his shoulders, worked their way down to his butt and then back again. And when

1:11:15

he passed out, they put salt, poured salt water on him.

1:11:19

That's heavy. But the elders were respected in that way and that they

1:11:28

would say, no, this is where we draw the line. And the line was

1:11:32

very clear. And so when you

1:11:35

consult before you make decisions, you

1:11:39

tend to get the wisdom that comes with it. And for me, that

1:11:43

is translated into if you look at Botswana's economy,

1:11:46

it's one of those fascinating economies, I think, worldwide

1:11:50

it has no harbor, so it's dependent on its

1:11:54

neighbors for import and export. It has a little bit

1:11:58

of land in the north where there's lots of water that flooded it once a

1:12:01

year, which is called Ukavango swamps. Fantastic for

1:12:05

wildlife, amazing place to visit. So what do

1:12:09

you sell? So the CDC, the Commonwealth

1:12:13

Development Corporation, had been there and they developed agriculture and specifically

1:12:16

cattle farming. So Botswana became like a really big

1:12:20

cattle ranch. And so they would look for

1:12:24

water, and whenever they found water, they would basically put down a borehole

1:12:28

and then they had water. And that means you could have a certain amount of

1:12:31

people and a certain amount of cattle around that borehole. Then they would go a

1:12:33

few kilometers off, punch another hole, and drill, drill, drill,

1:12:37

drill, drill, drill till they found one. The reason why I know they did it

1:12:40

this way is because my aunt did a lot of the drilling for the

1:12:46

and it's hard to drill in sand. So my uncle became a specialist in

1:12:49

that. So they would drill, find the water, then it would set up a camp

1:12:53

there and again and again. So most of the roads in Botswana

1:12:57

followed the line of underground water.

1:13:01

And so when the cell phone towers were put up, they

1:13:05

followed the road. So the followed basically

1:13:08

water. So when you look at a map from Botswana, you can see

1:13:12

where the water is. And so water has a

1:13:15

very basic need for humans, but also a very

1:13:19

sort of emotive connection in Botswana. And so

1:13:23

there was cattle and when there was something like mad cow

1:13:27

disease or something similar, they would slaughter everything in the

1:13:30

vicinity because they would not put their one big industry

1:13:34

at risk. And then they started looking at

1:13:38

tourism and they went like, but where are the real tourists? Well, we get to

1:13:41

need to get the word of mouth out. So we'll put up camping sites. You

1:13:44

bring your tent, you put it on a camping site. Lovely, great. We'll look after

1:13:48

those. You have an outside toilet. We're not going to put on an electric

1:13:52

point. We're not going to cater for caravans. It's sand. You come in with a

1:13:55

four x four in a tent. Very basic

1:13:59

or luxury. We'll fly you in with a jet and then a

1:14:02

helicopter and we'll get you to where you need to be, but we're not going

1:14:06

to cater for the middle segment. And so it became this

1:14:10

luxury sort of location to go

1:14:13

for watching game and things like that, especially in the north.

1:14:17

And that helped the economy because you brought in people that would spend

1:14:20

money and it kept a whole community going because a backpacker

1:14:24

doesn't. No, that's very true. And

1:14:28

so the next thing they went is, okay, but now they've got these two industries

1:14:31

and then they discovered diamonds. So the beers came in and this is

1:14:35

me ad libbing the story a little bit and said, you know what,

1:14:39

we want to basically mine for the diamonds.

1:14:43

And so the government said, sure, but instead of taxes, we

1:14:46

want shares. And you're going to move

1:14:50

your mining. Not your mining you're going to do here,

1:14:54

but you're going to move your sorting and your polishing and your

1:14:57

distribution centers here as well. And then you're going to

1:15:01

train our people to become the people work for. You not going to just

1:15:05

bring in foreigners. We're going to learn how to do what you need to and

1:15:09

you're going to invest in setting up academies, in setting up

1:15:12

places that we can learn. So Botswana's economy went

1:15:16

from, I think it quadrupled or became

1:15:20

five times bigger within ten years

1:15:24

around that, because this economy now allows you for this

1:15:28

knowledge economy that you're creating in an African country where it's really hard to do

1:15:31

that and all these ruling families have banded together to get

1:15:35

that done. And so I think when we together,

1:15:39

when we forgive and let go, when we

1:15:43

find the funny things that help us to

1:15:46

survive and we don't diminish people, as you were saying, I think

1:15:50

that's something that the swana sort of epitomizes for

1:15:53

me. Wow. I had no idea that

1:15:56

that's how it was set up. Especially about the diamonds. I didn't know

1:16:00

that. I wasn't aware. Diamonds and

1:16:04

gold, that seems to be the value. That's what's happening there

1:16:08

now. Wow. So if you were to leave our listeners

1:16:11

tonight with one clear message

1:16:15

about leadership and humor, what would that be?

1:16:19

You know what, I think the thought would be

1:16:22

that humor happens on

1:16:26

purpose, that we don't wait for things to happen funny, that

1:16:30

we actively take some time to see

1:16:34

the funny around us and to be aware of it. I call it a comic

1:16:37

vision. That you use that vision to see the humor

1:16:41

and that you learn to share it with the folks around

1:16:44

you and that it's about them

1:16:48

being funny. I've been funny most of my life, but when I learned I

1:16:51

could help other people be funny, I think that's when my career really started

1:16:55

taking off. And I think that when we make it about someone

1:16:59

else, that we never diminish anyone and that we have

1:17:03

fun in what we're doing. I think then we've got a pretty good goal. We

1:17:06

build these gigantically, fantastic worded

1:17:10

sentences and mission statements, and very few

1:17:14

of them say, I'm going to have fun and no one's going to stop

1:17:17

me. And that's what I would hope for them.

1:17:21

I think that's an amazing place to stop it.

1:17:25

I'm going to have fun and no one's going to stop me. That's a good

1:17:29

point, I think. Thank you so much for Tim, for joining us tonight. I

1:17:32

really appreciate your time and I love talking to you. My

1:17:36

honor. I'll come back anytime. Let me know. What

1:17:40

I learned from Tim ingress is that humor can

1:17:44

help us change the world. It

1:17:47

helps us to step away from the mundane and from our current

1:17:51

boxes that we live in into a world that is fresh

1:17:55

and new and give us completely different perspectives. It'll help us

1:17:58

to basically break away from

1:18:02

those anchors that hold us back. So I'm looking

1:18:06

forward to exploring humor and using humor to let go of

1:18:09

my darlings and move on to bigger, brighter, and more

1:18:13

amazing stuff. And I think a giggle a

1:18:17

day is what should keep the doctor away. Well, I hope

1:18:21

you find your giggles and your future. Future?