0:17

Hey, welcome back, Faithful Politics

0:17

listeners and viewers.

0:19

If you're watching us on our YouTube

0:19

channel, I am your political host, Will

0:23

Wright, and I'm joined by your faithful

0:23

host and my friend, Pastor Josh Bertram.

0:28

How's it going, Josh? Doing great.

0:30

Thanks, Will. And this week we have a, I don't know, a

0:31

gift, a surprise, a, we are blessing you

0:39

with two amazing young men who work at

0:39

Word & Way and I'm not going to do justice

0:48

by giving the introduction, so I'm going

0:48

let them give their own introduction.

0:51

So first coming from Missouri, we have

0:51

Brian Kaler.

0:55

So welcome to the show, Brian, or welcome

0:55

back to the show.

0:58

And yeah, tell us a little bit about

0:58

yourself.

1:00

Yeah, thanks for having me back. I think this is my third hit on my punch

1:01

card.

1:04

So I'm not sure when I get a free episode,

1:04

but uh, it's great to be back with you and

1:11

Warden Way is a publication that's been

1:11

around since 1896.

1:15

We started in Kansas City, Missouri. We're now based in Jefferson city.

1:18

Although virtual office these days, staff

1:18

are everywhere.

1:21

Started out as an independent Baptist

1:21

publication and we are still independent

1:26

and much more ecumenical in

1:29

looking at news and events from a

1:29

Christian perspective.

1:33

That often means in this wild world that

1:33

we are in that we're looking at topics

1:37

like Christian nationalism and a lot of

1:37

the things that you're exploring and how

1:41

Christians can confront and push back for

1:41

a more authentic version of the gospel.

1:47

And as for me, I'm Brian Kaler.

1:49

I'm a Baptist minister with a PhD in

1:49

political communication.

1:52

And I have been leading Word & Way since

1:52

the end of 2016.

1:55

That's amazing, cool. Thanks, Brian. Bo, what's happening?

1:59

Yeah, I just appreciate you all still

1:59

calling us young.

2:02

That's a word that's incredibly, you know,

2:02

becoming more and more not applied to me

2:06

these days. So I am a mainline Protestant pastor in

2:07

Indianapolis now since we last talked, but

2:12

I still get to have the privilege of

2:12

writing about religion and politics and

2:16

culture with Brian at Word and White on

2:16

our substack of Public Witness.

2:21

And in addition to doing all those things,

2:21

I'm also pursuing a PhD in public affairs.

2:28

really cool. Well, you folks have just written a book,

2:30

and I mean, one of many.

2:38

You both are very, very prolific writers,

2:38

and I love reading your stuff.

2:43

But you wrote a book called Baptizing

2:43

America.

2:47

And... before we unpack like what it's all about,

2:47

why he wrote it, I just gotta say it's a

2:53

phenomenal book. The pre -read you provided to us, you

2:55

know, it's one of those things like when

3:00

you read books about Christian

3:00

nationalism, and to your point, Brian, it

3:05

is a topic that we explore pretty

3:05

regularly on our show.

3:09

When you read a book about Christian

3:09

nationalism, like I'll be honest, I go

3:12

into that book thinking that I've kind of

3:12

heard it all before.

3:16

And mind you, I'm not an expert, but I've

3:16

read a ton of books about it.

3:21

And I was surprised to learn a whole bunch

3:21

of new stuff about Christian nationalism,

3:28

the history of it, kind of the evolution

3:28

and sort of the different ways that we see

3:32

it in our society. And I just can't, can't give enough praise

3:34

for the book.

3:37

So well done to you both.

3:41

But maybe you can tell us a little bit

3:41

about like what is...

3:44

baptizing America about and like why did

3:44

you write it and now I'll let you answer

3:49

it first Ryan and you can fill it in both

3:49

if you got anything to say.

3:52

Yeah, well, thanks first of all for

3:52

reading it and and for your kind words

3:57

there and I think What you said is exactly

3:57

why we wrote the book is because we have

4:02

read a lot about Christian nationalism We

4:02

have listened to a lot of podcasts about

4:05

Christian nationalism. We have watched a lot of Christian

4:05

nationalism and gone to Christian

4:08

nationalism events and There's been a

4:08

missing part of the story despite all of

4:13

the conversation about Christian

4:13

nationalism And that is particularly the

4:16

role that mainline Protestants played and

4:16

continue to play

4:20

in upholding this ideology.

4:23

And so we felt like that story needed to

4:23

be told for a couple of key reasons.

4:26

I mean, one, we need to know how we got

4:26

here.

4:29

If we don't truly appreciate and

4:29

understand how we got to a place where

4:34

Christian nationalism is the threat to

4:34

democracy and Christianity that it is

4:38

today, then we're not going to necessarily

4:38

come up with the correct solutions on how

4:41

we start to detox from Christian

4:41

nationalism.

4:43

And then a second reason to that is,

4:51

at those concerning evangelicals over

4:51

there.

4:53

They're like, well, they have a problem

4:53

with Christian nationalism.

4:55

They need to get their house in order.

4:58

And that can feel good, and it's true, all

4:58

that's true.

5:01

And post -January 6, concerning

5:01

evangelicals deserve pretty much all the

5:06

criticism we can give about Christian

5:06

nationalism.

5:09

However, in addition to looking at...

5:12

maybe it's not necessarily a spec, maybe

5:12

it is a plank in the other's eye.

5:15

We also need to look at the plank in our

5:15

own eyes as well.

5:18

And so this is a call to the other half,

5:18

if you will, of the Protestant Christian

5:23

family to say, well, where have we

5:23

promoted Christian nationalism?

5:27

Where have we wrongly fused our American

5:27

and Christian identities and pretended

5:33

that they were equivalent, that they were

5:33

in unison?

5:36

and how can we begin to remove that

5:36

ideology from our own churches and our own

5:42

denominations. I think the only thing I'd add to what

5:45

Brian said, I think everything he said is

5:48

spot on here is we were surprised that

5:48

this story hadn't been told before because

5:53

as we were watching Christian nationalism,

5:53

as we were hearing some of the various

5:58

data points cited by some of the leading

5:58

sort of purveyors of Christian

6:02

nationalism, we kept thinking like, well,

6:02

that has roots in mainline Protestantism.

6:06

The mainline Protestants helped make that happen. So whether it's under God, the Pledge of

6:07

Allegiance and God of Atrocious as a

6:10

national motto, A lot of these things that these Christian

6:11

nationalists cite is, well, America has

6:14

always been a Christian nation.

6:16

The mainland Protestants helped make

6:16

happen.

6:19

And so we have been talking about this for

6:19

a few years.

6:23

This part of the story really needs to be

6:23

told.

6:25

And finally, we said, well, if nobody else

6:25

is gonna do it, let's take an attempt.

6:29

So we wrote a long essay of, I think it

6:29

was like 1 ,600 words for religion and

6:34

politics, which is a publication of the

6:34

Danforth Center at Washington University.

6:38

And we just kind of set up a trial balloon

6:38

and we thought, well, somebody will shoot

6:41

this down, right? A Christian nationalism scholar, a

6:42

historian, somebody will say, well, you

6:45

all don't understand this correctly. You don't have it right.

6:47

Because those aren't our specialties.

6:49

But it went up and we got all these great,

6:49

I mean, we had mainline denominational

6:53

faith leaders reaching out to us. We had Christian nationalism scholars

6:54

saying, this is spot on.

6:56

This needs to be told. And we really got a lot of encouragement

6:57

to really take that essay and do more with

7:01

it. And that more is this book that's coming

7:02

out from Chalice Press.

7:06

Well, that's awesome. I really enjoyed the book.

7:11

And one of the questions I have to kind of

7:11

set the stage even further for our

7:15

conversation is you talk about a January

7:15

6th that was actually not the January 6th

7:23

that all of us think about. Can you kind of set the stage for this

7:25

kind of remembrance?

7:31

This this event that took place to

7:31

remember what happened.

7:35

on January 6th and where you saw the

7:35

Christian nationalism displayed in ways

7:42

that might be different than some of us

7:42

think about it.

7:46

you

7:50

moment of trying to shake up the story

7:50

here a little bit.

7:54

It's a January 6th, the steps of the U .S.

7:57

Capitol. There's a preacher who is praying for

7:57

America to be one nation under God during

8:04

an event that was created by the Speaker

8:04

of the House.

8:09

A bunch of members of Congress are there.

8:12

They're singing a couple of Christian

8:12

hymns.

8:16

It's Christian nationalism.

8:19

But this is January 6, 2022.

8:22

This is the one year anniversary.

8:24

And this was an event led by then Speaker

8:24

of the House Nancy Pelosi.

8:30

It is mostly attended, almost

8:30

predominantly, by Democratic members of

8:34

Congress. They're singing hymns that are in, you

8:36

know, Christian hymns that are in a lot of

8:41

your hymnals in your churches. And the preacher who prays that this would

8:42

be one nation under God is Michael Curry,

8:49

the presiding bishop of the Episcopal

8:49

Church, which when we think of the

8:53

Episcopal Church, we generally think of

8:53

like the bastion of liberal Protestantism

8:57

today. And Bishop Curry has been an excellent

8:58

voice against Christian nationalism in a

9:01

lot of ways. But in this particular moment, we see the

9:02

enactment of Christian nationalism sure as

9:08

a kinder, friendlier, less violent

9:08

version.

9:11

than we saw on that exact same spot, on

9:11

those exact same stairs 365 days earlier,

9:18

but it's still Christian nationalism. Yeah, you know, I was wondering if, and

9:21

Bo, maybe you can answer this.

9:27

So, all three of you are pastors, are very

9:27

fluent in theology, Christianese, all that

9:36

other kind of stuff. I'm not. I came to the faith in 2008.

9:40

I'm still learning, you know, and some of

9:40

the things I'm learning are like, third

10:26

day is not like a new Christian band.

10:30

Like... Like, these are things I'm still learning

10:31

and just developing my own faith.

10:35

You know, I'm listening to some like

10:35

Christian worship music and I'm telling my

10:37

wife, my wife's a pastor's kid, you know,

10:37

I was like, oh man, these guys are pretty

10:40

good, you know, have you heard of these guys? Third day, I think, you know?

10:44

And she's looking at me like, yeah, I've

10:44

heard of them, you know, but like, there's

10:50

a term that comes up quite a bit in the

10:50

book, mainline Protestant.

10:53

And for a person like me,

10:56

that word doesn't probably have the same

10:56

weight or carry the same weight as it may

11:01

for you all. So can you like break down like what does

11:02

it mean to be a mainline Protestant?

11:08

Absolutely, well I appreciate that and

11:08

sometime you and I will have to jam out to

11:12

Sonic Flood.

11:15

Within American Christianity broadly, you

11:15

kind of have three dominant sort of lanes.

11:25

You've got American Catholicism, American

11:25

Evangelicalism, and American Mainline

11:30

Protestantism. Now there's others that don't fit neatly

11:31

into any of those categories, but broadly

11:34

those are the three big groups. Basically, up until the mid to late 20th

11:37

century, the mainland Protestants were

11:44

more dominant than the evangelicals were.

11:46

And then we've kind of had a reverse of

11:46

fortunes here.

11:49

So mainland Protestants can be looked at a

11:49

few different ways.

11:53

One is to just go by denominations, to

11:53

measure them by belonging.

11:56

If you belong to what are called the Seven

11:56

Sisters of the Mainline, which are the

12:00

denominations of the American Baptist, the

12:00

Episcopalians, the United Methodists, the

12:05

UCC, the Presbyterian USA, the Disciples of Christ,

12:06

and the ELCA Lutherans.

12:10

If you want to remember those seven

12:10

denominations, you're a mainline

12:14

Protestant by category.

12:16

I think there's some value in that, but

12:16

within those denominations, there's also a

12:20

lot of diversity of theological thought

12:20

and political thought, so it's not like

12:24

you can paint a broad brush and say

12:24

everybody in those seven denominations is

12:28

the same. There's actually a scholar named David

12:29

Hollinger who's written a recent book

12:32

where he talks about mainland Protestants

12:32

as being those who are more ecumenically

12:35

minded or he calls them ecumenical

12:35

Christians.

12:38

So basically if you're really wanting to

12:38

sort of work across Christian boundaries

12:42

and sort of work for the unity of the

12:42

church, if you're really open to this idea

12:46

that like you know we can partner over

12:46

there if we don't really believe the same

12:49

thing as each other, you tend to have more

12:49

of a mainland Protestant ethos whereas a

12:53

lot of evangelical and fundamentalists

12:56

Certainly not all of them have been much

12:56

more we're gonna keep to ourselves, we're

12:59

gonna do things our ways, we're more

12:59

suspicious of sort of inter -Christian

13:03

collaboration than perhaps the mainline

13:03

Protestants are.

13:07

So you can belong to a particular

13:07

denomination, you can be more open -minded

13:11

about ecumenism.

13:14

Those are a few ways of thinking about

13:14

mainline Protestants.

13:17

One of the other sort of historical

13:17

divides has been kind of the willingness

13:21

to incorporate modern and modernist

13:21

thinking into religious life.

13:25

And obviously you've That goes all the way back to some of the

13:26

teachings around evolution and some of the

13:29

early fights there. So it's not an easy category to define.

13:34

We tend to take the first two in the book.

13:36

We either talk about these different

13:36

denominations and then we also talk about

13:38

how they tend to have this sort of ethos

13:38

of being more ecumenical in their

13:42

approach. Got it. So Brian, is mainline Protestant, how do

13:44

you say that word?

13:51

Protestantism? Did I say that right?

13:54

Nailed it. All right. So is the mainline part just something

13:56

that is sort of like mutually agreed upon

14:01

by scholars that this is mainline, or is

14:01

there sort of like an equation like A plus

14:07

B equals mainline?

14:09

Yeah. So, I mean, if you look at some of the

14:10

scholarships happening today, and I think

14:13

we cite both of these definitions, PRI and

14:13

Pew, when they're doing research to see,

14:19

you know, what type of people, you know,

14:19

think about what type of things, they

14:23

actually have created their own

14:23

denominational lists.

14:25

And so they do the belonging definition

14:25

and they include the Seven Sisters.

14:30

They also include others. So they have defined every denomination in

14:31

Orthodox Catholic mainline or evangelical.

14:39

And it's really interesting. You can see that the mainline evangelical

14:40

split runs through faith traditions.

14:45

Right? So the largest Presbyterian denomination,

14:45

Presbyterian Church USA is mainline, but

14:50

the next largest is evangelical and same

14:50

with Lutherans.

14:54

And then this is where the terms can be fuzzy. So the mainline Lutheran group is the

14:56

evangelical Lutheran church in America,

15:02

but then the evangelical one is the

15:02

Missouri Synod.

15:06

Right? And so the terms, you know, words of all.

15:08

all. And so that shows us how sometimes it's

15:09

complicated.

15:14

And then, you know, with Baptist, it's

15:14

flipped there.

15:17

the Southern Baptists are evangelical. And then you have a smaller group,

15:18

American Baptists have been the historical

15:21

mainline. Although other groups today are also like

15:22

Cooperative Baptist Fellowship are

15:25

considered mainline. And then you've got, you know, Midnight

15:26

Church USA.

15:28

There's a lot of different denominations. And as Bo noted, we were a mainline

15:30

Protestant nation for most of our history.

15:36

until the late 60s, early 70s, when we

15:36

start to see this shift happening.

15:39

And it's really only as the main line is

15:39

losing its influence that the term main

15:45

line actually comes into play.

15:47

But now it's a dominant term, ironically,

15:47

when they're not really the main line any

15:52

longer. Although some of the more recent work by P

15:53

.R .R .I.

15:56

has shown that evangelicals are now the

15:56

ones in decline.

15:59

So the two groups are actually coming back

15:59

to be about the same size.

16:03

Hmm. That makes sense.

16:05

So, so I love the book and tracing some of

16:05

the history moving to how we got here

16:13

today and essentially how the main line

16:13

denominations being a majority of the

16:21

people identifying in the United States at

16:21

certain times.

16:27

What, what have the shifts been and how

16:27

like, how did they set?

16:32

the groundwork for what we're seeing

16:32

today?

16:35

What are kind of the major, maybe the

16:35

major events or shifts that we saw

16:40

historically that have set the groundwork

16:40

for someone like Donald Trump or like the

16:48

Seven Mountain Mandate, NAR ideas, New

16:48

Apostolic Reformation?

16:54

How did the mainline denomination set the

16:54

groundwork for this?

16:59

Now you kind of explore in the book. let me sort of speak to the first half of

17:01

that Josh, then I'll let Brian speak to

17:05

the second half of that. So I'll give him the easy part and I'll

17:06

take the hard part.

17:09

I think it's important to note

17:09

historically that the mainliners have

17:13

always been more of the sort of cultural

17:13

elites.

17:16

So the mainline church, even when it

17:16

hasn't been the dominant tradition in

17:21

American Christianity, has always had an

17:21

outsized influence on our culture and our

17:25

sort of social institutions. Some of that has to do with

17:29

correlations to education and financial

17:29

resources.

17:32

Some of that has to do with just history

17:32

of the Episcopalians were here pretty

17:36

early, right? And evangelicalism was a tradition that

17:37

grew up over time in American society.

17:41

So we should just note that the mainliners

17:41

have always had this kind of hold on our

17:46

culture. And they sort of saw what was good for

17:47

their church, it was good for our

17:51

country's culture as sort of going well

17:51

together.

17:54

There was a lot of tension between the two. They were kind of symbiotic.

17:57

And it was only when you saw this rise of

17:57

American evangelicalism and all of a

18:01

sudden the mainliners place in as sort of

18:01

cultural elites were being challenged that

18:06

they became more aware of this tension.

18:08

So I think a lot of what we cite in the

18:08

book is some sense inadvertent or at least

18:13

the mainliners were unaware of what they

18:13

were doing because they just didn't see

18:16

this tension and this friction that exists

18:16

between church and state.

18:20

And the way that obviously as we're

18:20

growing in our awareness of Christian

18:23

nationalism we clearly now see this is not

18:23

healthy.

18:26

I don't want to excuse it, I just want to

18:26

say they were just kind of oblivious to it

18:30

in some ways. And I think a lot of the incidents we talk

18:31

about demonstrates that.

18:35

So for instance, the Constituting

18:35

Convention of the National Council of

18:39

Churches, the dominant mainline parochurch

18:39

organization, not only main owners, but

18:45

they're certainly in leadership of that,

18:45

when it was called together in 1950 to

18:49

form, their theme was this nation under

18:49

God.

18:53

And if you were to have a group of

18:53

Trumpian Christians today gather for a

18:58

convention and this nation under God was

18:58

their theme, we would all be screaming

19:03

about it, and rightfully so. But if we're going to scream about it

19:05

today in 2024, we should be able to look

19:10

back to 1950 and say, oh, that wasn't as

19:10

acceptable as maybe perhaps they thought

19:16

it was at the time. And that's one of the things we highlight

19:19

in the book is that our definition of

19:21

Christian nationalism can't just be

19:21

Christians engaged in politics that you

19:26

disagree with. And so it is that idea of treating the

19:27

same types of responses and the same types

19:33

of engagement equally in the use of the

19:33

term.

19:37

As far as the question about, you know,

19:37

how does this help set the stage for

19:41

Donald Trump? I mean, one of the things I would note is

19:41

that Donald Trump was discipled himself in

19:46

the mainline tradition. So I know today we think about Trump as

19:47

the president for evangelicals, but he was

19:52

confirmed in a Presbyterian church.

19:54

He grew up in another mainline church in

19:54

the reformed tradition that was led by

19:59

Vincent Norman Peel, a Presbyterian

19:59

minister.

20:02

And so he is a product of not only

20:02

mainline Protestant America, but even

20:08

specifically of mainline Protestant

20:08

congregations.

20:12

And so this is just one example, I think,

20:12

of how for generations, mainline

20:17

Protestants, were discipling Americans

20:17

that we could merge Americanism and

20:23

Christianity. We could see them as one in the same and

20:24

that there wasn't any conflict or

20:28

contradiction there and that to be a good

20:28

American was to be a Christian.

20:34

And so decades and decades of discipling

20:34

people and teaching this.

20:38

And then as they started to lose some

20:38

influence,

20:41

Evangelicals popped up and said, yeah, we

20:41

like all that.

20:43

Let's do it. And now some mainline Protestants are

20:44

like, well, no, maybe this isn't so good

20:47

anymore. But I mean, I think part of the issue is

20:48

that the demographics of our nation have

20:51

changed. And so it didn't feel as dangerous for

20:52

most of America in the 1950s and 1960s

21:00

because most of America identified as

21:00

Christian.

21:02

You know, when you only have a couple of

21:02

percent that are, you know, that are

21:07

atheist and you only have a couple of

21:07

other percent that are Jewish and

21:10

a couple of other percent of any other

21:10

religion and you're a nation that's 90 %

21:14

or more Christian, then to talk about

21:14

Christianity and being a Christian nation,

21:20

it excludes some people, it's still

21:20

problematic, but it doesn't exclude as

21:24

many as it does today. And so one of the things that we know is

21:26

that one of the reasons why Christian

21:30

nationalism is more dangerous today is

21:30

because it doesn't work as well in our

21:35

more pluralistic society. It is more of a threat to democracy.

21:39

than it was 50 or 60 years ago when most

21:39

people were Christians.

21:44

That makes sense. And I noted in the email that I sent you

21:47

all that I thought that your book was up

21:56

there with One Nation Under God by Kevin

21:56

Cruz.

22:00

Because if folks haven't read that book or

22:00

listened to it, how I'm doing it, I would

22:06

highly encourage you to do it, because it

22:06

really gives the full evolution.

22:11

And. as you were talking about One Nation Under

22:11

God and God We Trust, there's a whole

22:15

chapter about stamps and money and how all

22:15

that stuff came to be.

22:24

And it's almost like your book is a

22:24

concordance to One Nation Under God or

22:31

some sort of cliff notes that helps unpack

22:31

some of the elements of it.

22:38

But I want to go back to your comment

22:38

about Trump and his pastor growing up,

22:46

because this I found very, very

22:46

interesting about his connection to prayer

22:51

in public schools. So, Ken, I don't know who would be best to

22:53

answer it.

22:56

I'll point to you, Bo, because you're

22:56

closer to my left eyeball.

23:01

So, if you can kind of unpack that, what's

23:01

the significance there?

23:04

I'm actually going to pass this to Brian. One of the fun things about co -authoring

23:06

a book is we each take different chapters.

23:09

The way we write is we each took primary

23:09

responsibility for one chapter and then

23:13

workshopped with the other. But Brian was the one who provided this in

23:14

the book and I want to give him the credit

23:18

and the chance to speak to it here. That's very nice, very sweet.

23:22

Okay, go ahead Brian. saying he's being nice and giving me

23:23

credit, but he just doesn't remember it.

23:26

That's why they're really, he's punting.

23:29

So, you know, one of the key markers of

23:29

identifying the defining Christian

23:33

nationalism today is support for

23:33

government official prayers in public

23:38

schools. We're not talking about the times of

23:38

silence because, you know, as long as

23:42

there's math tests, there will always be prayer in school. But we're talking about the like teacher

23:43

or, you know, authoritative figure led

23:47

prayer that can be, you know, coercive in

23:47

public schools.

23:51

And so, Whitehead and Perry, they actually

23:51

have this as one of their six variables

23:57

when they're like trying to find where

23:57

people line up on a continuum of Christian

24:00

nationalism. One of the questions is, you know, do you

24:01

think prayer should be brought back into

24:04

public schools? And so if it's Christian nationalism today

24:05

to say that prayer should be in public

24:11

schools, it was definitely Christian

24:11

nationalism to put it there in the first

24:14

place. And so I went back and looked at the

24:15

prayer that in New York that led to the

24:20

Supreme Court decision that's often

24:20

called, you know, when we kick God out of

24:23

schools, right? But there was a, and that decision was in

24:24

1962, but the prayer was actually written

24:31

and put into public schools in New York in

24:31

1951.

24:35

The state board of regents there for

24:35

education had brought together some clergy

24:41

trying to write a prayer that would be

24:41

ecumenical.

24:43

So that way wouldn't be taking sides with

24:43

this denomination over that denomination.

24:48

And then when they released the prayer,

24:48

which is a pretty, you know, innocuous

24:53

prayer, as long as you're a Christian,

24:53

then they, they had a bunch of pastors in

24:59

the state immediately came out and praised it. And Norman Vincent Peale, who would be

25:01

Trump's pastor, officiated the first of

25:09

his weddings. Donald Trump has been married more than

25:13

one time?

25:16

And I think the first two were in the

25:16

church, but I think people had died before

25:20

the second wedding but uh But he only

25:20

officiated the first one and so but he

25:25

he's one of the ones who quickly praises

25:25

in public this new prayer to put in public

25:30

schools He said every patriotic and

25:30

thoughtful citizen of all faiths should

25:35

enthusiastically endorse the proposal

25:38

This country cannot endure if we cannot at

25:38

least mention God in schools.

25:44

I mean, that is a textbook example of

25:44

Christian nationalism today.

25:49

If come out, you know, if Franklin Graham,

25:49

which we use as an example in that

25:53

section, comes out and says something very

25:53

similar to that today, it's Christian

25:56

nationalism. And so here we have a significant figure.

26:00

He was...

26:03

Methodist minister. He's leading a historic reform church in

26:04

America congregation the very next year He

26:07

would have his best -selling book the

26:07

power of positive thinking He later served

26:11

as a vice president for the National

26:11

Council of Churches, right?

26:13

He's a significant figure in mainline

26:13

Protestant world and he's endorsing this

26:19

as did Numerous other mainland Protestants

26:19

and in fact in the public record in the

26:22

news accounts in New York at the time I

26:22

couldn't find me, you know Protestant

26:25

pastors arguing or Christian pastors

26:25

arguing against the use of the prayer

26:30

There would occasionally be a rabbi who

26:30

would suggest that it was unnecessary,

26:33

which was cuts against Peel's own argument

26:33

that people of all faiths could say this

26:38

prayer. But it was the mainline Protestants who

26:39

helped put this prayer in public schools

26:45

in the first place. That is absolutely fascinating.

26:49

And I love the way that your book is

26:49

structured.

26:52

I think it's structured really well.

26:54

And when you give the context for

26:54

Christian nationalism in America and how

27:02

it came about kind of helping us

27:02

understand it, one of the things you talk

27:06

about is civil religion or the idea of

27:06

civil religion and how that was a very

27:13

appealing idea. You alluded to it earlier because of the

27:14

demographic changes that

27:17

that have happened, that that civil

27:17

religion has in a sense become uncivil.

27:22

And I love the play on words there, but

27:22

could you help us understand what is civil

27:28

religion and what role has it played in

27:28

America and especially setting the

27:34

groundwork for where we are today? Maybe.

27:38

And the reason I say maybe is because one

27:38

of the arguments we have in this chapter,

27:42

and we actually think this is one of the

27:42

more important chapters in the book, is

27:44

that we are really critical of this

27:44

concept of civil religion because we think

27:48

it's been poorly defined and poorly

27:48

understood and that the more you sort of

27:52

pull at it, the more it falls apart pretty

27:52

quickly.

27:55

So traditionally, civil religion comes out

27:55

of the work of Robert Bellah.

27:59

It's been sort of studied and discussed in

27:59

a lot of different sociological and other

28:02

circles. But it's basically this idea that there is

28:03

this sort of form of transcendent meaning

28:07

that exists within a culture and that it's

28:07

something that isn't religious but kind of

28:11

has quasi -religious elements. So maybe you could call it religious, but

28:13

is maybe not tied to sort of any one

28:18

particular deity or one creed.

28:21

But yet it has these sort of unspoken

28:21

national marks that everybody sort of is

28:25

on board with except when they're not.

28:27

And as you can see, this falls apart

28:27

pretty quickly.

28:29

But it's been seen as kind of innocuous,

28:29

right?

28:31

So think of like a. Memorial Day observance, right?

28:34

That's clearly a time of civil religion

28:34

where we're assigning transcendent meeting

28:38

to what's happening in that moment. It's not just a remembrance of those who

28:39

have passed away, but we're assigning a

28:44

certain kind of value to those sacrifices

28:44

that transcends the functions of the

28:49

military, so to speak. And what we're really trying to say is

28:50

that this has become the gateway into

28:54

Christian nationalism, right? Rather than say civil religion is OK, but

28:56

Christian nationalism is bad, that that

29:00

line is not nearly as clear and so much

29:02

what we have passed off as civil religion

29:02

quickly bleeds into Christian nationalism.

29:06

My favorite example of this and or least

29:06

favorite example of this is Boy Scout

29:10

Sunday, right? So in my churches, I've been parts of in

29:11

the past, maybe some of your churches,

29:15

there's a Sunday in February where the Boy

29:15

Scouts, right?

29:18

Forgotten country, right? Sort of the dominant sort of very civil

29:19

religion type thing that I would argue is

29:24

very Christian nationalistic. They come to the sanctuary, they bring in

29:25

the flag, they say the Pledge of

29:29

Allegiance. as part of the worship service.

29:31

Now it's meant to celebrate scouts and

29:31

their dedication to their country, their

29:35

dedication to service, and the dedication

29:35

to their faith.

29:38

But what's really going on there? Why are we saying the pledge of allegiance

29:39

to a particular country in a sanctuary

29:44

that's supposed to be an embassy of the

29:44

Kingdom of Heaven?

29:47

When you start to pull at it, it's not

29:47

innocuous at all.

29:50

And yet, so many mainline churches

29:53

promote Boy Scouts Sunday. Indeed, the Scouts of Colander are

29:54

attacked by some evangelical circles,

29:58

right, because they're being more

29:58

inclusive on LGBTQ stuff.

30:01

And so there's been a real synergy between

30:01

mainline Protestantism and Scouting that

30:07

is really indicative of this kind of civil

30:07

religion that we actually think is much

30:11

more Christian nationalistic than we want

30:11

to admit and is actually quite harmful to

30:15

both the church and to the country.

30:18

No, that's really interesting. You know, I'm...

30:21

One of the things I think I struggle with

30:21

when it comes to Christian nationalism is

30:25

like, like, are we just, I don't know, a

30:25

bunch of like, woke, you know, spiritual

30:35

people that are...

30:37

you know, tuning our eyes towards this

30:37

thing that that has sort of been there,

30:42

but nobody's really kind of raised the

30:42

flag to kind of say anything about it, you

30:46

know, until, you know, after January six,

30:46

because we're like, oh, we see Christian

30:50

flags, we see like, you know, the pine

30:50

tree, we see all this other stuff.

30:53

And and we're like, wow, maybe there is

30:53

really a big issue, like, because a lot of

30:58

this, like, I sometimes feel it's like the

30:58

way we view racism, right?

31:05

Like today in 2024,

31:08

like, like in the, in the sort of world

31:08

of, you know, movies that are being

31:12

remade, I don't think they'll make Blazing

31:12

Saddles.

31:16

I don't think they would remake Tropic

31:16

Thunder, you know, and I definitely don't

31:19

think Jimmy Kimmel will go on dressed like

31:19

Karl Malone, you know, like, like, because

31:24

we've just changed, right, our culture has

31:24

changed.

31:27

So, so like, like, can you can you maybe

31:27

make an argument for why, like, our

31:32

attention to Christian nationalism is so

31:32

important?

31:35

given the context of what your book covers

31:35

in the past.

31:39

I'm having to take a first stab at them,

31:39

Brian, if you think I'm missing something

31:42

here. Well, I think you're right that there's

31:43

been some of this that has always been

31:46

there that we haven't attended to well.

31:49

And I do think, as Brian noted earlier, as

31:49

our culture has become much less

31:53

homogenous, that that has been more

31:53

important to understand the sort of

31:58

effects of this and the problems of this.

32:01

However, our understanding of the present

32:01

also illuminates our past and makes us

32:04

realize that we frankly tolerated a lot we

32:04

probably shouldn't have tolerated in the

32:08

past because it was problematic and we

32:08

just didn't see it because...

32:11

we were ignorant. So I do think in the sense that we're

32:12

seeing it now, it doesn't mean all of a

32:17

sudden it just appeared. It just means we weren't as aware of in

32:18

the past that we should have been.

32:20

Just like we knew racism has been part of

32:20

American history from the beginning, yet

32:27

we're becoming more and more aware of that

32:27

now than we used to be.

32:30

And I think we're the better for it.

32:32

At the same time, I do think that

32:32

sociologists have studied this.

32:36

I mean, Christian nationalism is not just

32:36

some label we apply to people.

32:39

I do think that this is something that I think is a misunderstanding that's

32:41

out there.

32:43

There is social scientific data that can

32:43

measure Christian nationalism and can

32:48

track how it changes over time. And I think as we're getting an

32:50

understanding of what's going on with it,

32:55

that's helping us understand where the

32:55

problem is, what the problem amounts to,

32:59

and how widespread and pervasive it can

32:59

be.

33:02

So I do think that it really is a concept

33:02

that's rooted in social science.

33:07

It's not just something, a label we're

33:07

applying to people now.

33:11

Yeah, I mean, the research is very clear,

33:11

you know, from Benjamin Whitehead and

33:15

Perry and Gorski and others, that when

33:15

someone shows up high on the Christian

33:20

nationalism continuum, that they really do

33:20

espouse and believe in some of these key

33:24

tenets of Christian nationalism, that they

33:24

think about other issues similarly.

33:28

So, you know, it really is, it's a

33:28

worldview that it changes the way you

33:32

think about violence. The way you think about guns, the way you

33:33

think about immigrants, the way you think

33:37

about a whole host of other issues.

33:39

And that's when you know, in social

33:39

science research, that you've identified

33:43

something really important. When it's connected to all of the, like if

33:44

we can decide whether or not you're on one

33:49

end of the continuum or the other end of

33:49

Christian nationalism, and then know that

33:52

you're going to think differently about

33:52

all of these different issues, it shows

33:55

that something core is at play here.

33:58

And I do think that, I mean, obviously

33:58

there's been a lot more attention to

34:00

Christian nationalism because of the

34:00

January 6th insurrection.

34:04

But the scholarship was already there

34:04

before that.

34:06

Christians Against Christian Nationalism,

34:06

you've had Amanda Tyler on the program,

34:09

was already created over a year and a half

34:09

before January 6th insurrection.

34:14

So it's not a new idea, a new concept, but

34:14

we are, I think, even more aware and more

34:20

concerned about the danger that it poses

34:20

because we saw what happened in an attempt

34:24

to overthrow a democracy. And then as we unpack some of this, we

34:26

recognize the danger it poses in our

34:31

churches. And that it is, I mean, we...

34:34

clearly call it in the book, it's heretical. It subverts the gospel.

34:37

It's not what Christianity is about.

34:40

And so we need to quit putting up with it. Just because we put up with it, this

34:41

heresy for generations doesn't mean we

34:45

should just say, oh, well, it's always been there. Like, let's do the hard work and separate

34:47

the wheat and the chaff here.

34:52

Yeah, it's so fascinating to me this

34:52

entire conversation.

34:56

And one thing that I struggle with, kind

34:56

of in the same vein as Will was talking

35:03

about, and let me just give some context.

35:07

So I was listening to a lecture on a

35:07

course about why study history.

35:16

And essentially, one of the things that

35:16

the professor was saying was two things.

35:23

Well, there's several, but two things

35:23

stood out in these lectures.

35:26

One was that we don't learn from history.

35:29

By and large, people don't learn from

35:29

history.

35:32

We're supposed to learn from history, but

35:32

we don't.

35:34

We want to experience it ourselves,

35:34

unfortunately.

35:37

And then the second thing is that freedom

35:37

is not a universal...

35:41

is not a universal value, power is.

35:45

And if you look at the way that people

35:45

have walked, like the idea that everyone

35:51

values freedom the same as we do is a very

35:51

dangerous idea because it isn't true.

35:56

And people at different times value it in

35:56

different ways and there's different kinds

36:00

of freedom. I won't go into all that.

36:03

But the reason that gives context is

36:03

because I'm thinking about nationalism.

36:08

And one of the...

36:10

Excuse me. One of the subjects that was brought up is

36:11

the National Socialist Party, the Nazi

36:17

Party in Germany and how nationalism

36:17

became a substitute for religion.

36:25

It had the same kinds of worldview kind of

36:25

values that shaped people's thinking.

36:33

And when I look at this and I think about

36:33

secularism, right?

36:37

And like... I think about secularism as almost like a

36:38

substitute religion as well, like this

36:44

sense that there's some kind of values,

36:44

these ultimate values that are gonna be

36:48

put there. And then I start to wonder, are we just

36:49

trying to, is it just a competition

36:54

between two things that are just like

36:54

trying to bring ultimate values?

37:01

And then in that case, which one is more

37:01

important and which one wins?

37:05

One of the quotes that you have, that I found myself agreeing with, and it

37:07

was a quote from someone where you weren't

37:13

putting it there like as a positive thing,

37:13

was like, hey, these guys were not chosen,

37:19

right? The founders weren't chosen in the sense

37:20

that they were the champions, God's

37:25

champions, but they were chosen because

37:25

they inherited and espoused chosen

37:30

principles. And I've had myself say, well, hey, you

37:32

know, guys, I think that...

37:37

a nation, I don't believe that America is

37:37

God's chosen nation in any sense like

37:43

that, but I do think that people that

37:43

align themselves, nations that align

37:46

themselves with Christian values or with

37:46

biblical values or whatever you say, they

37:51

can tend to me more, you know, potentially

37:51

more God's favor than the other.

37:55

I find myself rethinking that these days.

37:58

I find myself challenging my own thinking

37:58

that I've had.

38:03

But how have you guys worked through this?

38:06

Like, are we just deciding one set of

38:06

principles versus another?

38:10

Like atheistic principles versus Christian

38:10

principles?

38:13

Which ones really went out?

38:16

Because it seems to me at the end of the

38:16

day, like there are a set of values that

38:20

people are going to choose and a nation is

38:20

going to choose because we have more

38:25

underpinnings to what we do.

38:27

How do we work through this? And I, you know, this isn't like a, yeah.

38:32

I don't know, this isn't like a trap question. It's really a curious question.

38:36

How do we figure this out? Because like, I don't necessarily want to

38:38

like take China's, like China's values as

38:43

a government and a nation and say, oh

38:43

yeah, that's good.

38:48

Does my question make sense? I know I'm kind of rambling here, but I'd

38:50

love to hear your thoughts.

38:53

Yeah, so Josh, I think I hear what you're

38:53

wrestling with and I would say this right

38:57

are. Writing in critique of Christian

38:58

nationalism comes from a desire to make

39:04

sure we're protecting the church from an

39:04

idolatry and a heresy and also wanting us

39:10

to believe that you know Christians do

39:10

have a role in public life in American

39:15

democracy that can be healthy right? So on the one hand we don't want to.

39:19

idolize the nation because we don't think

39:19

that anything but God deserves our worship

39:23

and when you do make an idol out of the

39:23

country all of a sudden that's what you're

39:27

worshipping and you can't critique it and

39:27

you you end up placing your loyalty your

39:31

ultimate loyalty where it doesn't belong

39:31

right so the church should stand over all

39:35

the countries that Christ is the Lord of

39:35

all the nations and we need the church to

39:40

be the church and the problem with

39:40

Christian nationalism is it corrupts the

39:44

church and damages the gospel in that way.

39:46

On the flip side, right? We think that if you can keep the nation

39:47

in an appropriate place that obviously,

39:52

you know, democracy is a good, right?

39:55

And I would say that democracy is good for

39:55

Christians because it allows the churches

39:59

to operate as freely as they possibly can.

40:02

And it also allows people to flourish as

40:02

God intends more so than any other other

40:08

government that I know. So I'm very pro democracy and very pro

40:09

American democracy.

40:12

I want. Christians to be robustly involved in

40:13

public life, defending democratic

40:17

principles because I think that's good for

40:17

humanity.

40:20

I think that's, and I also think that's

40:20

good for the church.

40:23

So I view these as symbiotic in the sense

40:23

of the church and democracy working

40:29

together for ends that both can affirm.

40:31

At the same time, what we're worried about

40:31

with Christian nationalism is undermines

40:34

democracy and it undermines the church.

40:38

Josh, the key that I think he made a

40:38

comment there was about the quest for

40:42

power. I mean, that, I mean, that it doesn't

40:42

matter if we have a secular system in

40:46

China or the old Soviet model, or if you

40:46

have a quote Christian nation, right?

40:52

That, that quest for power always ends up

40:52

hurting the people.

40:58

I mean, the thing that's important about

40:58

Christian nationalism is that it doesn't

41:02

mean that we all, the four of us, right?

41:06

It doesn't mean that we're necessarily in charge. of the nation because Christian

41:08

nationalism even is really about a very

41:13

narrow slice of Christianity who gets to

41:13

be in charge.

41:16

I mean, we see this in Russia is honestly

41:16

the best contemporary example.

41:20

It's a Christian nationalistic state.

41:22

The Russian Orthodox Church and the

41:22

Russian government are essentially in one.

41:25

The point that that Patriarch Kirill, the

41:25

Russian Orthodox Church, has even said

41:29

that if to the Russian soldiers that if

41:29

they go and die in Ukraine, that it is a

41:33

salvific act, it will wash away their

41:33

sins.

41:37

I mean, that's Christian nationalism, but

41:37

it's not good for other Christians either.

41:42

I mean, Jehovah's Witnesses are the most

41:42

persecuted group religiously in Russia,

41:46

but number two are Baptist and number

41:46

three are Pentecostals, even more than

41:51

Muslims. Hundreds of Baptists and Pentecostals are

41:52

being arrested and fined and some even

41:57

imprisoned every single year since before

41:57

the invasion two years ago in Ukraine and

42:03

since. Christian nationalism is never actually

42:05

even good for all Christians.

42:08

It's only about a few of us. And we saw this in the founding of our

42:09

country. It's one of the reasons why we...

42:12

a separation of church and state is, you

42:12

know, my Baptist forefathers and

42:17

foremothers living out there in, you know,

42:17

that godly state of Virginia, we're being

42:23

thrown in prison for being Baptist and not

42:23

Anglicans.

42:28

Right. And so, yeah, I mean, I hear you, Josh.

42:30

We were worried about Christian

42:30

nationalism because I think it's both

42:33

dangerous democratically. It's also dangerous to the church.

42:36

But there's also there are other regimes

42:36

that could also be dangerous.

42:39

And so we need a system that is not only

42:39

one where there is a separation of church

42:44

and state, but where there is also then

42:44

religious freedom, religious liberty as

42:49

well. And that's that's the model that our

42:49

country has been experimenting with for a

42:53

little over 200 years, sometimes better

42:53

than others.

42:58

I should just note that when we talk about

42:58

it being a threat to democracy, right,

43:04

back to what Brian was saying earlier,

43:04

when the social scientists look at

43:08

Christian nationalism scales and what

43:08

they're correlated with, a stronger

43:11

support for Christian nationalism is

43:11

correlated with things like higher support

43:15

for political violence, higher support for

43:15

restrictions on voting.

43:18

higher support or less tolerance of

43:18

interracial marriages and other sort of

43:24

racist and other types of discrimination

43:24

towards LGBTQ people, et cetera.

43:29

So we are seeing how if you are a

43:29

Christian nationalist, you are unlikely to

43:34

be less supportive of other democratic

43:34

principles such as equality, equal civil

43:42

rights, that kind of a thing. So that's when we talk about it being a

43:43

threat to democracy.

43:46

it's there in the social science data that

43:46

there are these correlates.

43:49

That's really interesting.

43:52

I have to push back on you a little bit,

43:52

Brian, because Virginia is not a state.

43:56

It's a Commonwealth. And if you can't get that right, I don't

44:01

know if anybody should buy your book.

44:11

It's not separation of church and

44:11

Commonwealth, which would be a mouthful.

44:16

But. off the tongue as well. a wall between...

44:21

All right, so I am kind of curious about,

44:21

like, you know, what can we do about, you

44:28

know, our entanglement with, like,

44:28

nationalistic ideologies if you're

44:33

Christian? And maybe kind of a part of that is, like,

44:34

are people subscribing to Christian

44:42

nationalistic ideology without even really

44:42

knowing?

44:44

I mean, you know, like, recently...

44:47

I've, uh, Heidi, something political

44:47

reporter from MSNBC said on air, like, you

44:52

know, Christian nationalists, something

44:52

believe their rights come from God, you

44:56

know? And there was a whole, like, you know,

44:56

thing about, you know, this and that and

45:00

how she gets it wrong and, you know, the

45:00

liberals hate God and blah, blah, blah,

45:04

blah, you know? And like, and, and, and there seems to be

45:04

a lot of different types of permutations

45:09

of Christian nationalism that, that some

45:09

folks are just sort of blowing out of

45:12

proportion and then some folks are getting it right. And when we talked to Sam Perry,

45:17

Couple of weeks ago, I said, hey, if

45:17

there's anybody that would know what the

45:22

definition of Christian nationalism is, it

45:22

would be you.

45:26

Break this down for me. If I say, God bless you, after somebody

45:27

sneezes, am I a Christian nationalist?

45:32

You know? I don't think I am, but I'd like to hear

45:33

from you.

45:36

So maybe help us walk through what people

45:36

are doing and may not know that are

45:45

Christian nationalists adjacent.

45:47

And how do we detangle our faith from our

45:47

nationalist identity?

45:55

Yes, so let me speak about this in the

45:55

church.

45:58

As a pastor, what I'm concerned about is

45:58

the health of my Christian community.

46:03

And that means I want us to know what it

46:03

means to be Christian.

46:06

I want us to understand the life and

46:06

teachings of Jesus and live them out in

46:10

the world. And I want to make sure that we are

46:10

protective of the integrity of our witness

46:15

and we don't let it become compromised by

46:15

things like nationalism and other things

46:20

that corrupt it. So... I think from, if you're looking, one of

46:22

the things we're reaching for writing this

46:25

book is we want to say to mainline

46:25

Protestants, as Brian was talking about

46:27

earlier, like let's look at the spec in

46:27

our own eye or the log in our own eye and

46:30

make sure that we're dealing with that. Because the bottom line is I'm a

46:32

progressive mainline Protestant pastor.

46:35

I can scream at the evangelicals and the

46:35

fundamentalists that support Trump all I

46:39

want. They don't care what I have to say.

46:42

It might be cathartic for me, it might

46:42

help me feel better, but it's not gonna

46:46

change anything. Where I do have influences in my mainline

46:48

Protestant congregation, my mainline

46:51

Protestant denomination, and the people

46:51

who respect where I'm coming from, and

46:56

they will listen to me, and they're the

46:56

ones I need to think about who I'm talking

46:58

to. So we see a lot of pastors get in trouble

47:00

over the flag in the sanctuary.

47:05

This kind of is the most common symbol.

47:08

That flag is sitting there. Why is it in there?

47:10

If the sanctuary is an embassy of heaven,

47:10

why does any nationalistic symbol for the

47:15

flag of any nation in a sanctuary?

47:18

What happens is these pastors come in,

47:18

they're very motivated, maybe they're just

47:22

at a seminary, they're really convicted,

47:22

they go, they rip it out, they throw the

47:25

flag down the church basement, and then

47:25

that church member that's been there for

47:29

60 years comes up to them on a Sunday and

47:29

says, how dare you, I'm gonna report you

47:33

to the board, and pretty soon there's a

47:33

big fight, and the congregation's in

47:36

turmoil and people are leaving. Eventually the pastor exits a few years

47:37

later, and the first thing that happens is

47:41

that lady comes back and she moves the

47:41

flag back to the sanctuary, right?

47:45

That's not helpful to anybody.

47:48

So what we said is like, if that flag is

47:48

in your sanctuary, let's start having a

47:51

conversation about why. Let's learn the history of why that flag

47:53

is there.

47:55

We tell some of that history in the book. Let's talk about you as a community

47:57

reflecting on what it's doing there and

48:00

why do you feel like it's important to be

48:00

there?

48:02

Is there another place that maybe it could

48:02

be that still honors the country and

48:06

honors the flag but isn't in the sacred

48:06

space of the sanctuary?

48:10

Let's use that moment. Let's use the Christian nationalism we're

48:11

perpetuating to have a conversation that

48:15

makes us a better Christian community.

48:17

So I would say is start where you are, be

48:17

committed to your community and start

48:22

working on it in your community because

48:22

that's where you're going to have the most

48:25

impact. And I think the other benefit of that is

48:26

as my church and other churches get more

48:30

and more clear about we are a Christian

48:30

community, not a Christian nationalistic

48:33

community, it'll create a contrasting

48:33

witness with some of those churches out

48:37

there that are very happy to be Christian

48:37

nationalists.

48:40

And it'll help others see that there is a

48:40

choice between what that kind of.

48:45

Christian nationalism looks like and what

48:45

this other Christian witness looks like in

48:48

a way that I think will ultimately be

48:48

alluring because at the end of the day, I

48:51

think Jesus is a pretty compelling guy.

48:53

And I think the more we can keep the focus

48:53

on Jesus, the more attractive we're going

48:58

to be as a church. You know, that makes a lot of sense.

49:01

Brian, did you have anything that you

49:01

wanted to add to that?

49:04

Yeah. And then we, at the end of the book, as

49:04

you know, we give several steps and, and,

49:08

and the flag, taking the flag out, isn't

49:08

the first step as Bill kind of, you know,

49:11

warned, right? Like there's, there's several steps that

49:12

conversations that need to be had.

49:15

And thinking about this, you know, very

49:15

theologically about how can we look at the

49:19

own practices in our own churches and

49:19

denominations.

49:22

And, you know, one of the things that I

49:22

think is most significant is that idea of,

49:26

well, then if nationalism distorts the

49:26

gospel, takes us away from the gospel.

49:31

then we have to work on as pastors or

49:31

Sunday school teachers or whatever role we

49:36

have in churches to help broaden the

49:36

viewpoint, right?

49:40

To become more global minded.

49:43

And that's really significant. That's what nationalism tries to stop us

49:45

from doing, right?

49:49

Nationalism is worried that we will find

49:49

ourselves in agreement with those on the

49:54

other side of the border because then when

49:54

it comes to a time of war, that threatens

49:58

national sovereignty. It wants you to fight for those inside the

49:59

border as your first and foremost faith

50:05

and allegiance against those on the other

50:05

side, those other people.

50:09

But as Christians, we are in communion

50:09

with Christians across the border, with

50:14

Christians throughout time. And that is a theology that begins to

50:15

shape us and help us to recognize that we

50:21

are citizens of two kingdoms, but as Jesus

50:21

warned us, you can only serve one master.

50:26

Hmm. that point of tension comes, you will

50:27

prove which one you actually serve.

50:31

And so we have to do that deep theological

50:31

work over years of helping detox some of

50:38

the Americanism out of our churches so

50:38

that we become Christians first, that we

50:42

serve and we worship a global God who

50:42

loves the whole world and that we are in

50:49

communion with Christians across the whole

50:49

globe.

50:51

world. I love that.

50:54

So based on all of your research that both

50:54

of you have done for this book and even

51:00

beyond, I know that this is just like the

51:00

tip of the iceberg in terms of the

51:05

writings and the thinking that you guys

51:05

have done along these lines and in this

51:10

theme. What are you like?

51:13

What trends are you seeing in America?

51:18

And you can even expand to globally.

51:20

if you want to.

51:23

But what trends are you seeing?

51:26

And I know we've been kind of making this

51:26

case the whole time, but again, restate

51:30

for us, why is now the urgent time where

51:30

we need to pay attention to this and where

51:37

we need to do something about this as

51:37

Christians and people of all different

51:42

faiths, but especially...

51:46

No, I mean, election year, I mean, it's

51:46

going to be bad.

51:49

I mean, right? It's going to be Christian nationalism is

51:50

going to be more on steroids this year

51:54

than it was maybe last year. And so I think it's really important that

51:55

we have these conversations because if

52:01

we're not talking about these issues in

52:01

our churches, then the only ones who are

52:05

those who are using Christianity in the

52:05

public square for their own partisan

52:09

benefit. And we have to, we have to as Christians,

52:10

as Christian leaders to stand up and to

52:16

draw some of those lines because it's

52:16

happening in ways.

52:20

And I mean, I know that, you know, Josh

52:20

and Will, you both know this, you follow

52:24

this kind of stuff, but our faith is being

52:24

used to not only support specific

52:29

candidates, both sides, campaigning in

52:29

churches and so forth, and invoking sacred

52:36

texts often out of context. to justify their public policy positions,

52:38

but then also this blend of Christian

52:42

nationalism to get us to have a certain

52:42

vision of politics, right?

52:47

To we're a Christian nation and ergo that

52:47

means such and such and such and such.

52:51

We have to keep those other people out or

52:51

I guess now we're not even sure if they're

52:56

people that are coming into our country,

52:56

right?

52:59

And so that's the danger of Christian

52:59

nationalism there, literally dehumanizing

53:04

other people. And so it is a, it is a,

53:08

critical time. I think it's going to get worse before it

53:09

gets better this year.

53:12

We are seeing a lot of, you know, the

53:12

quote prophets who are predicting that God

53:18

has already decided who's going to win,

53:18

just like they did last time.

53:21

And whoops, it didn't quite work out that

53:21

way.

53:23

That means they're setting the stage for

53:23

the next insurrection, because if God has

53:28

ordained someone to win and then if the

53:28

election doesn't turn out that way,

53:32

Well, then we all have good Christians

53:32

have to have to rise up to enact God's

53:38

will and save the nation. I mean, that's religious language that can

53:40

be really persuasive and also really

53:45

deadly. And so I'm really concerned at the moment

53:46

that we find ourselves in.

53:50

And I think that that this year, I know

53:50

some pastors may not want to engage in

53:55

some of the difficult and controversial

53:55

issues.

53:59

but we actually need those voices. in partisan ways.

54:02

We're talking about, you can do this in

54:02

deeply theological ways, but we need those

54:07

kinds of voices of warning this year more

54:07

than we have even in the recent years.

54:14

I agree with everything Brian said there

54:14

and I would just add that the idea of

54:20

Christianity is being used to erode

54:20

democracy in a way that is harming people

54:26

whom God loves. And that has to bother us as Christians.

54:31

And again the fundamental problem, if you

54:31

trace it back through that sentence, is

54:34

that we have forgotten what it means to be

54:34

Christian.

54:38

And the people who are using this don't

54:38

actually know what it means to be

54:42

Christian. and the church has stopped speaking for

54:43

itself in a way that seeks to correct

54:48

those misunderstandings.

54:50

So the church needs to be the church here.

54:53

That's where this starts, and that's part

54:53

of why we wrote this book.

54:57

Yeah, you know, I really appreciate you

54:57

saying that because I think, you know, to

55:04

the outside observer, the focus on

55:04

Christian nationalism can easily be

55:09

portrayed as very anti -Christian, anti

55:09

-faith, you know, and I don't think that's

55:15

the case at all. I mean, you know, so in the series, the

55:16

Heavenly Homeman series, the very last

55:21

episode in the series called The Greatest

55:21

of These in Love,

55:25

It's all about sort of like in my mind and

55:25

I think probably the broader Christian

55:29

communities mind like what Christianity

55:29

should be about.

55:33

You know, I was delivered from a very like

55:33

bad lifestyle before I came to the faith

55:39

and I, you know, think that the Bible and

55:39

Christianity and Jesus can be very, very

55:44

beautiful. And, you know, I'm not necessarily out in

55:45

the streets passing out tracks, but, you

55:51

know, I've had folks come up to me and

55:51

just ask me about the Bible and stuff and

55:54

just... And I just love just sharing it with them

55:55

because I think it's a beautiful document.

55:59

I think the person of Jesus is very

55:59

inspirational.

56:03

And what I feel about Christian

56:03

nationalism, it's just sort of, it's

56:07

tarnishing sort of like the beauty of the

56:07

faith.

56:11

And I want people to just know Jesus the

56:11

way I know Jesus.

56:16

So, to your point, Brian, about 2024 is

56:16

going to be a crazy year for politics, for

56:23

Christian nationalism. You know, you've got stuff out there like

56:24

the, you know, project 2025, which is like

56:28

a scary document. So, like as a voter, like what advice

56:30

would you give to a voter?

56:35

And this would be a question for both of

56:35

you, you know, whether voters in your

56:40

congregation, just voters that are

56:40

believers in general, like how should we

56:44

approach, you know, who or what we vote

56:44

for in the ballot box, you know, when

56:52

we're... when we're in that ballot box and that

56:52

private space and we're trying to make a

56:56

decision on stuff. I recognize the sensitivity to what you

56:57

can or can't say due to your non -profit

57:03

status. Feel free to verbal judo it however you

57:04

see fit.

57:08

Bo, why don't we go with you first? setting Brian up for the hard question and

57:11

then you pass it off to me.

57:15

I mean, I think, you know, when I talk to

57:15

people about Christian discipleship,

57:21

right, all we're trying to do is to follow

57:21

who Jesus is.

57:25

And one of the things that I think Jesus

57:25

really asks us to do is to be more

57:29

empathetic. Walk a mile in somebody else's shoes.

57:32

Love your neighbor as you love yourself. Put yourself in somebody else's position

57:34

and respond to them as if that was you in

57:38

that position. As you do to the least of these, you do to

57:39

me. See Jesus in those people.

57:43

So what I want to do is I want to create a

57:43

society where everybody can flourish as

57:47

God intends. And that requires me thinking not just

57:49

about myself and what I want, but what is

57:52

best for everybody else and voting

57:52

accordingly, right?

57:55

Government, at the end of the day, all

57:55

we're trying to do is organize our

57:58

resources and share them in ways that

57:58

allows for the widest possible

58:02

flourishing, right? That's kind of what government is.

58:06

And so when I go into the ballot box,

58:06

that's what I'm thinking about.

58:09

How can my vote have an impact in a way

58:09

that will allow the most people to

58:13

flourish as God intends? Yeah, I'm voting uncommitted.

58:18

No, I'm just kidding. No, I mean, I think that one of the

58:23

biggest things we have to do is try to

58:30

divorce the idea that we are arrogant

58:30

enough to speak for God, that this is

58:37

God's candidate and this is God's party in

58:37

this race.

58:40

I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to

58:40

discern values and...

58:46

character and all of that, but it's a

58:46

dangerous space to say it's God's will

58:50

that this person wins. And so I think that's what that's number

58:53

one. And to be very concerned about people who

58:55

are very confident that they know God's

58:58

will on that particular space.

59:00

But I think we are in a place where I've

59:00

never been a single issue voter and I've

59:06

never been a straight ticket voter and all

59:06

that kind of stuff.

59:09

Right. You know, and so I think it is really

59:09

important to evaluate the various

59:13

candidates. But I also think we're in a place where if

59:13

someone fundamentally is opposed to basic

59:19

democracy, like that should be.

59:23

a very strong variable to consider. That's the top line.

59:26

The question is, do you want democracy or

59:26

do you want an authoritarian state?

59:31

And I hope people listening to this pod

59:31

aren't one authoritarianism, but I think

59:36

that's a really important point. And it doesn't just, by the way, that's

59:38

not just a party line.

59:41

We have some candidates on both sides that

59:41

are very problematic on democratic

59:45

support. You know, take... Katie Porter's comments after she lost the

59:47

primary, I guess it was an open primary,

59:51

but a Democratic candidate who lost the

59:51

primary in California.

59:53

Some very problematic comments.

59:56

She was using very Trumpian language to

59:56

complain that she lost an election.

1:00:01

I think we've seen the danger of that kind

1:00:01

of rhetoric.

1:00:05

And we need to call out the bad rhetoric

1:00:05

and the bad actors wherever they may be.

1:00:10

And if that means that you look at a

1:00:10

ballot and you say none of the above,

1:00:14

which... You know, yes, in the Democratic primary,

1:00:15

you can vote uncommitted.

1:00:18

In the general election, you can't, but

1:00:18

you can skip a line if that's what you

1:00:20

need to do. Or you can write someone in depending on

1:00:21

your state.

1:00:23

I mean, there are ways to be faithful

1:00:23

without necessarily, you know, the

1:00:31

election isn't the end all. Like this isn't our ultimate value.

1:00:35

And I just think that that's what we got

1:00:35

to do when we walk into the ballot box.

1:00:37

And this year, you know, more so than

1:00:37

usual.

1:00:41

Yeah, so, okay, tell us about the book,

1:00:41

where can people buy it, when is it going

1:00:45

to be released, you know, all the

1:00:45

logistics, administrative stuff where

1:00:51

people can put your book on the New York

1:00:51

Times bestseller list.

1:00:54

That's the goal. Thank you. Well, we're going to make it now that

1:00:55

we're on this pod. So.

1:00:58

thank you to you all for helping advance

1:00:58

that cause.

1:01:00

So the book is called Baptizing America,

1:01:00

How Mainline Protestants Help Build

1:01:06

Christian Nationalism. It'll be out this summer from Chalice

1:01:07

Press, but you can pre -order it today.

1:01:10

You can go to Amazon, Barnes & Noble, all

1:01:10

those places where books are sold, but our

1:01:15

publisher would prefer, and we'd prefer

1:01:15

that you go to chalicepress .com, and if

1:01:18

you go there and use the promo code BA

1:01:18

Podcast, so Baptizing America Podcast,

1:01:25

you'll get I think it's 33 % off the cover

1:01:25

price, so it should be the cheapest place

1:01:29

you can buy it right now, and you're

1:01:29

buying it straight from our publishers.

1:01:32

So we'd love to have you all read it. We'd love to hear your feedback to it, and

1:01:34

we do think it's an important piece of

1:01:37

this conversation about Christian

1:01:37

nationalism that hasn't been said yet.

1:01:41

And if we really want to get at this

1:01:41

problem, we've got to fully understand the

1:01:44

problem. And we hope that our book will contribute

1:01:45

to that.

1:01:47

That's really good. And Brian, how can people follow you and

1:01:48

the work that we're in and wait as?

1:01:51

Yeah, thanks. Yeah, the best way to follow us is at our

1:01:52

sub stack newsletter, a public witness,

1:01:56

which is at public witness .wardenway

1:01:56

.org.

1:02:00

We've got some information there about

1:02:00

baptizing America in case you forget the

1:02:03

links or the name of the book, as well as

1:02:03

every week, more, you know, in depth

1:02:08

reporting and analysis at the intersection

1:02:08

of faith and politics that delivered

1:02:13

straight to your inbox. So. that's really great.

1:02:16

Well, guys, thank you so much.

1:02:19

If nothing else, it's just good to catch

1:02:19

up and see your beautiful faces again.

1:02:24

And good luck. and beautiful. I love you guys.

1:02:27

No wonder we wouldn't want to come on here. a host, you have to know how to rub your

1:02:29

guests the right way.

1:02:33

Hopefully, my mission has been

1:02:33

accomplished.

1:02:36

But thank you so much for everything you

1:02:36

folks are doing.

1:02:39

Great book, Blazing. Please, I'll have to say Blazing America

1:02:40

because I said it.

1:02:44

Baptizing America. Make sure you all pick it up and thank you

1:02:46

to our audience.

1:02:51

Remember, keep your conversations not

1:02:51

right or left, but up and we'll see you

1:02:54

next week. Take care. Right. friends.

1:02:57

Thanks.