0:17

Hey, welcome back, Faithful Politics

0:17

listeners and watchers, for those looking

0:20

at us on our YouTube channel. I am your political host, Will Wright, and

0:22

I'm joined by your faithful host and my

0:26

friend Pastor Josh Bertram. How's it going, Josh? Welcome back, and welcome to the next

0:27

episode of Faithful Politics.

0:30

Doing great, Will, thanks. Wonderful.

0:32

And this week we have with us Congressman

0:32

Jared Huffman.

0:36

He represents California's second

0:36

congressional district, which spans the

0:40

North coast of the state from the Golden

0:40

Gate Bridge to the Oregon border.

0:44

He sits on multiple caucuses to include

0:44

the congressional forethought caucus.

0:50

And I plan on asking you a lot about that,

0:50

but before I do, I want to welcome you to

0:54

the show. So welcome. Thank you.

0:57

Good to be with you. And while I think the caucus does have

0:58

forethought, we call it the Free Thought

1:02

Caucus. Free thought, interesting, wow.

1:06

That's so, you know, what's, yeah, yeah.

1:10

I wonder what I was thinking. Anyways, I wanna ask you just real briefly

1:12

about two other caucuses I saw that you

1:16

were a part of, because it sort of, I

1:16

don't know, excited me that maybe I should

1:21

become a congressperson. So like, you are on the Ski and Snowboard

1:22

Caucus and the Small Brewers Caucus.

1:29

Like, what are those about? Those are great names for caucuses that do

1:30

nothing and never meet.

1:35

So if that sounds like work that you would

1:35

like to do, come to Congress and join

1:40

those caucuses. Pfft. That's awesome.

1:44

Yeah, okay. So, free thought caucus.

1:47

What is sort of the purpose, the basis,

1:47

who else sits on the caucus?

1:52

Yeah, tell us a little more about it. Yeah, so Free Thought Caucus is a very

1:53

different type of caucus.

1:57

And, you know, there are dozens and dozens

1:57

of caucuses, you mentioned a few, that are

2:01

sort of in name only. Free Thought Caucus is a working caucus,

2:03

and we are a group now up to 22 members.

2:09

Unfortunately, all Democrats at this

2:09

point, we would love for it to be

2:12

bipartisan. We would love for it to be bicameral.

2:16

But we focus very much on defending the

2:16

separation of church and state.

2:23

focus on what we believe is true religious

2:23

liberty, which is defending everybody's

2:27

right to believe whatever they want or to

2:27

not believe whatever they want.

2:32

So we wanna maintain a secular pluralistic

2:32

republic and also defend both religious

2:39

minorities and non-believers against

2:39

discrimination in the US and around the

2:44

world, because as you probably know,

2:44

that's a big deal in lots of places these

2:49

days. Well, that's so cool.

2:51

Thank you so much for explaining that.

2:54

You know, the Free Thought Caucus. I'm like, that would be awesome.

2:56

If I'm ever a congressman, I'd love to

2:56

join that caucus.

2:59

And I'm a Republican. So hey, maybe in like, maybe out there in

3:00

the universe sometime, you'll have one

3:07

I'll be able to join. But you might, you know, that would be

3:08

great.

3:11

So, you know, I'm a pastor and I'm super

3:11

religious, you know, one of those

3:15

religious conservative evangelical freaks,

3:15

you know,

3:18

loves and one of my questions though, can

3:18

you tell us a little bit about your

3:23

upbringing and faith journey and of course

3:23

non-faith journey however that works and

3:29

feel free to share whatever you're

3:29

comfortable sharing and not whatever you

3:33

don't want to. So I'd just love to hear a little bit more

3:34

about that. the pastor parishioner privilege, I

3:36

assume, Josh.

3:39

So yeah, no, I'm always happy to talk

3:39

about it because it's been an interesting

3:45

journey. I grew up in a branch of the Mormon

3:45

church.

3:49

So I grew up in Independence, Missouri.

3:52

And for folks that know Mormon theology,

3:52

that's a really significant place.

3:56

It's a place where the... the founding prophet of the Latter-day

3:58

Saints, Joseph Smith, had a revelation

4:02

that told him that that's where the

4:02

original Garden of Eden was in Jackson

4:07

County, Missouri. Most people don't appreciate that.

4:10

So lucky me, I was born in the site of the

4:10

original Garden of Eden.

4:13

How about that? But it was also a prophecy that the saints

4:15

would...

4:21

build Zion in Independence, Missouri.

4:24

And so it became a very significant place

4:24

for Mormon history.

4:29

Of course, there were new revelations that

4:29

came along with Brigham Young and

4:32

eventually Salt Lake City became the new

4:32

Zion.

4:35

But a branch had split off after Joseph

4:35

Smith was killed and it became the

4:39

reorganized Latter-day Saints.

4:42

Joseph Smith's young son, Joseph Smith

4:42

III, eventually became the prophet and

4:47

they did put their world headquarters in

4:47

Independence

4:51

grew up in, the Reorganized Latter-day

4:51

Saints.

4:54

I was very active. My church community and theology were my

4:55

whole life and I was a member of the

5:02

priesthood up until I was about 20 or so

5:02

in college.

5:07

It kind of fell apart for me and I left

5:07

the church and spent a few decades

5:10

drifting around and have eventually landed

5:10

as a secular humanist.

5:16

So I'm happy to discuss any or all of that

5:16

more with you, but that's probably...

5:21

more of my religious background than you

5:21

bargained for.

5:25

I appreciate you sharing. yeah, I think that's great.

5:27

So, so by the time folks are watching

5:27

this, the president would have given his

5:32

State of the Union address. You know, in his speech, he said that the

5:35

State of the Union is strong.

5:38

I'd love to get your thoughts on what is

5:38

the state of religious liberty and the

5:43

United States. I think we're struggling to answer that

5:45

question, Will, and I think we're at a

5:50

moment where we just have different ideas

5:50

of what religious liberty is.

5:56

There are some people who think religious

5:56

liberty is their...

6:00

deeply held religious beliefs that need to

6:00

be institutionalized and imposed

6:06

society-wide on everyone, whether they

6:06

hold them or not.

6:10

And that's creating some real fissures, I

6:10

think, in our democracy, in our political

6:15

landscape, and I think even among

6:15

Christians.

6:19

You know, my guest last night at the State

6:19

of the Union, and I don't want to speak

6:23

for Christians, that would be pretty

6:23

presumptuous of me, I'll let Josh do that.

6:30

woman that you may know of, Amanda Tyler

6:30

from the Baptist Joint Committee on Civil

6:34

Liberties. She has started an organization called

6:35

Christians Against Christian Nationalism.

6:39

My point in bringing Amanda as my guest

6:39

was to show that some of the best

6:45

advocates right now against Christian

6:45

nationalists are Christians.

6:50

sincere Christians who oppose it from that

6:50

perspective.

6:54

So it's not just non-believers like me and

6:54

secularists and others who are

7:00

non-Christians. It includes a growing number of actual

7:00

bona fide Christians.

7:05

Yeah, I know that that's great. And Amanda is wonderful.

7:08

She was a guest on our show. It was shortly after the Kennedy v.

7:12

Bremerton Supreme Court thing was decided.

7:16

So, and yeah, she's wonderful.

7:19

I guess maybe my question, so as a city

7:19

member of Congress, like how does one go

7:27

about thinking about legislation while

7:27

also keep it in mind, you know,

7:33

religious liberty, because it seems like,

7:33

I mean, like religion is such an integral

7:39

part to people's lives in America.

7:41

And, and, you know, it seems like you

7:41

can't really pass a bill without offending

7:46

somebody, especially when it comes to like

7:46

religion.

7:48

So like, what's that sort of like delegate

7:48

balance that you have to, you have to be

7:52

thinking about? Well, I certainly don't ever want to do

7:54

anything that infringes on true religious

8:00

liberty, but I think it's important for

8:00

everyone to remember that religious

8:05

liberty is liberty in the broadest sense,

8:05

right?

8:10

It means that you get to believe whatever

8:10

you want and practice your religion in

8:14

your personal life in any way that you

8:14

want.

8:18

except if it comes to the point of

8:18

infringing on other people's rights.

8:22

And you don't get to bring your religion

8:22

into the public square and

8:27

institutionalize it in our government. That's a red line.

8:30

That's why we have an establishment

8:30

clause.

8:32

And, you know, sometimes these days it

8:32

feels like we're relitigating this

8:38

foundational issue that our founders, you

8:38

know, struggled with, but it really wasn't

8:42

much of a struggle. they made kind of a no-brainer decision to

8:45

reject theocracy.

8:49

And they had plenty of theocratic models

8:49

to choose from if they wanted to go down

8:53

that road, right? Because you guys know what it was like in

8:54

colonial America and, you know, the

8:59

Puritans did nasty things to the Quakers

8:59

and their theocracy and all sorts of crazy

9:05

authoritarian things happened in the

9:05

theocratic models that we had before we

9:09

created our constitutional republic.

9:12

We made a break from that, a very

9:12

deliberate one.

9:15

And it seems that these days, some people,

9:15

you know, there were...

9:21

There was controversy even back then. There were faith leaders who wrote to

9:22

Madison and Jefferson and others and said,

9:26

you should have embedded Christianity as a

9:26

national religion.

9:29

You should have mentioned God, should have

9:29

mentioned Jesus in the Constitution.

9:33

And they pushed back and said, no, we are

9:33

drawing a hard line of separation between

9:38

church and state here. But a lot of people have never accepted

9:40

it.

9:42

And there's been this Christian

9:42

nationalist impulse that sort of comes up.

9:47

every so often and right now we're living

9:47

through one of those moments where that

9:52

impulse is presenting itself in a big way.

9:55

Yeah, I completely understand what you're saying. You know, to my own potential, you know,

9:57

detriment, I am one of those Christians.

10:04

And I say that because there are people

10:04

that have been potentially on a support

10:09

team for my church. There are people that I know and love

10:10

dearly.

10:13

There are people that would listen to this

10:13

and feel like I'm not a Christian or I'm

10:17

not a good Christian because I am one of

10:17

those Christians that said Christian

10:23

nationalism is a danger terrible, terrible idea.

10:27

And it's interesting because you have to

10:27

kind of define terms, especially when it

10:32

comes to something that does. And we have talked about this a lot, but

10:33

I'm happy we've talked about it a lot

10:38

because it is such a crucial issue right

10:38

now and it's doing as much damage to the

10:43

church, in my opinion, as it's doing to

10:43

our church.

10:46

to our nation. And I would love to get your kind of take,

10:48

what is Christian nationalism as you

10:53

understand it and why is it such a big

10:53

deal?

10:56

How is it affecting our politics today?

10:59

And kind of, kind of give your take on, on

10:59

all that.

11:02

Yeah, well first, thank you, Josh, for

11:02

having the courage to tackle the subject.

11:06

Honestly, from your perspective as a

11:06

Christian, I think that's so important.

11:11

And there really is an interfaith alliance

11:11

on this issue that is good for both.

11:16

our constitutional republic and the

11:16

democratic values we should all care about

11:21

and also good for religion. You know, this is something that Madison

11:23

and our founders were really emphatic

11:26

about. This decision to separate church and state

11:27

was not an anti-religion decision.

11:32

They thought it was in the best interests

11:32

of religion to be divorced from government

11:37

in that way. So I'm so glad that you and others get

11:37

that.

11:46

itself, a subject that you could probably

11:46

have an entire podcast on.

11:51

The most typical shorthand definition is

11:51

the fusion of Christian identity with

11:59

right-wing political identity, so that

11:59

kind of right-wing politics and right-wing

12:06

conservative Christianity become one and

12:06

the same thing.

12:16

a religious conservative. And so that's sort of the most frequent

12:18

shorthand definition that I hear.

12:23

Some people will add to that, that there's

12:23

sort of a white Christian nationalism

12:28

element to it, that this is part of a

12:28

broader kind of white Christian privilege

12:33

culture war fight that we're having.

12:36

And there are certainly are a lot of

12:36

non-religious people, certainly people

12:41

that don't go to church and probably never

12:41

read the Bible that, that are Christian

12:44

nationalists. Right. And so it's, it's not simple.

12:48

even define the subject, but it's kind of

12:48

like all of these things and more.

12:53

And the reason that white comes into the

12:53

conversation quite a bit is that there's

12:59

sort of a, there's a black Christian

12:59

nationalism that's very different.

13:04

than the Christian nationalism that I

13:04

think we're talking about here today.

13:07

Black Christian nationalism is a sort of,

13:07

within the Black church, as I understand

13:13

it, a national pride that kind of revolves

13:13

around voting and civic responsibility.

13:20

It's pretty darn consistent with our

13:20

democratic values and our constitution.

13:25

The flip side of that is, you know, much

13:25

more of a Christian nationalism that is

13:34

agenda, a Christian supremacy that is not

13:34

at all like what the Black Church talks

13:41

about. Yeah, that's really good.

13:46

I appreciate you kind of helping unpack

13:46

that.

13:52

I'm reluctant to somewhat push back on

13:52

your definition a little bit, just because

13:58

I'm in the middle of reading Brian Kaler.

14:01

He's a good friend, friend of the pod.

14:04

He's coming out the book called, "'Baptize

14:04

in America." The beginning of this book is

14:10

actually really, really good. And he sort of makes this comparison about

14:12

the Democrats using sort of, you know,

14:17

very Christian related terms and stuff,

14:17

specifically like after January 6, you

14:23

know, to kind of say that, you know, yeah,

14:23

Christian nationalism is a big issue.

14:28

It seems very prominent in conservative

14:28

type circles, but it's like Democrats, you

14:35

know, don't necessarily have their hands

14:35

clean kind of completely on this issue.

14:39

And it hurts because like I'm a... I'm a Democrat, you know, and like, and I

14:40

feel like we're flawless.

14:43

Right. So, uh, so, so like, are there

14:44

permutations of Christian nationalism

14:49

that, that seemed to kind of transcend

14:49

party lines or Christian nationalist like,

14:55

um, you know, activities?

14:57

So like, you know, and I'll just use one

14:57

example, like, you know, Biden going to,

15:02

um, the church in South Carolina, you

15:02

know, and talking about not giving a

15:06

sermon, but talking about primarily just

15:06

political stuff.

15:11

Well, I don't mean to suggest that we have

15:11

to sort of purge civic engagement and

15:19

patriotism and all these things from our

15:19

culture centers, including churches.

15:25

I mean, I would never suggest that.

15:28

I think where we get into trouble is not

15:28

when a president goes to a black church

15:32

and speaks to them as he hopefully would.

15:35

any gathering of people, including in a

15:35

mosque or a synagogue or a group of

15:40

secularists. I think where we get into trouble is when

15:42

we start trying to take...

15:45

religious dogma and doctrine and

15:45

institutionalize it in our government.

15:52

And so, you know, I'm not terribly

15:52

troubled when I see a president in a black

15:56

church or even when I see, you know, my

15:56

Republican friends going to their churches

16:01

and engaging with those folks. Those are their constituents and that's

16:02

perfectly fine.

16:06

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You know, I was listening to a book that

16:08

came out, well, it was a lecture on a book

16:14

that came out by a guy named Paul Miller

16:14

called The Religion of American Greatness.

16:59

We had a guest that kind of recommended to

16:59

it.

17:01

We're trying to see if we can get him on

17:01

the show to talk to him.

17:04

But he really made an amazing comparison

17:04

to me.

17:08

He said the analogy is, you know, that

17:08

Christian nationalism kind of sees, like

17:14

nationalism sees cultures like

17:16

Checkerboard. And each little space is very well

17:18

defined.

17:21

So you have your French space, you have

17:21

your German space, you have your Anglo

17:25

space, you have all these things. It's like, and it's really much, it's like

17:26

culture is like a Venn diagram where

17:30

everyone's kind of like there's overlap

17:30

and there's back and forth.

17:33

And there's some things that are more, you

17:33

know, in this culture and there's some

17:37

things that are more defined in another

17:37

culture.

17:41

And I would see like even secularism, like

17:41

if you were to sit here

17:48

of human secularism, secular humanism,

17:48

right?

17:52

And I probably would agree with a lot that

17:52

you said and be like, oh man, I like that

17:57

value. That's a value. I feel like it's a Christian value.

17:59

Or I guess it's a multiple value.

18:02

I don't know what to call it. But like when you're approaching

18:04

legislation and when you're looking at

18:08

like how to best.

18:10

form these kinds of laws that will include

18:10

the most amount of people.

18:15

How has your secularism, the human

18:15

secularism helped you in that?

18:21

And do you think in any ways it might

18:21

hinder or there are obstacles that you

18:27

might have to overcome, especially

18:27

thinking about maybe how religious people

18:31

might view or take this particular piece

18:31

of legislation?

18:34

Yeah, well, there's a lot in that

18:34

question, Josh.

18:37

I hope that...

18:40

I know, yeah. For starters, I hope that I'm never

18:43

insensitive to people's sincerely held

18:49

religious beliefs. The last thing in the world I wanna do is

18:50

judge or insult or anything else in this

18:55

space of belief, which is so personal and

18:55

also so diverse, right?

19:01

And we should never presume to really know

19:01

what is in someone else's heart.

19:04

when it comes to things like that. But I think we each bring our own values

19:06

to life and to the work that we do.

19:13

I guess what I, you know, I grew up as a

19:13

Christian and you know, you might say that

19:16

my values are Christian values, even

19:16

though I'm a non-believer today and a

19:20

humanist, it's not like my values changed.

19:24

But I guess I would also say that a lot of

19:24

these values are really universal and

19:28

don't depend on, you know, some.

19:32

verse in the Bible. I would say love thy neighbor was around a

19:33

lot longer than you know when Jesus gave

19:38

the Sermon on the Mount. And I would say that some of the you know

19:40

the golden rule was around as part of a

19:46

universal value part of human nature long

19:46

before you know Moses descended from Mount

19:52

Sinai with tablets if you believe that.

19:55

So I just tend to look at it that way when

19:55

you think of basic decency and goodness

20:00

and humanity and You're right, I think you would look down

20:02

the list of values that define humanism

20:07

and you would probably agree with almost

20:07

all of them.

20:10

Because they're universal. And it's just about being a good, decent

20:11

human being, as far as I'm concerned.

20:18

Yeah, like, I guess to piggyback on that,

20:18

how do you, like, balance, you know,

20:24

religious liberty and, like, civil rights?

20:27

Because it seems like, when you're talking

20:27

about religious freedom, there always

20:32

seems to kind of be that tension.

20:34

So, if you think about COVID, you know,

20:34

church closings, for instance, you know,

20:40

like, you know, people with churches would

20:40

say...

20:43

Yeah, you can't tell me to close my

20:43

church, but from a public health

20:46

standpoint, we're like, it's probably

20:46

going to be the best for everybody.

20:49

Or when you think about like, you know,

20:49

the web designer, Supreme Court case that

20:55

they didn't want to make a website for a,

20:55

you know, a made up gay couple, because it

21:01

wasn't really like a real person there. But so how do you sort of walk that tight

21:03

line?

21:06

And how do you handle that tension between

21:06

the two?

21:09

Well, I'm going to have a very different

21:09

answer than, you know, some religionists

21:14

would give you in that. But I just don't think you can impose your

21:15

religious values on everyone else, whether

21:21

or not they believe in them. And I think it's as simple as that.

21:24

So we are living through a time right now

21:24

when many of my Republican friends are

21:31

trying to legislate.

21:35

in ways—and people are doing it in courts

21:35

and in judicial decisions as well—that

21:40

basically give a special exemption, a

21:40

special free pass for people to

21:45

discriminate and do all of these other

21:45

things that would be illegal if applied to

21:49

everyone else if it's part of a sincerely

21:49

held religious belief.

21:53

I mean, you just saw Justice Alito in a

21:53

Supreme Court—I think it was a concurring

21:59

opinion he just made about a juror who was

21:59

dismissed.

22:04

Yeah. of homophobic views they expressed in the

22:04

process of jury selection that they said

22:11

were religious beliefs.

22:13

And Alito was very disturbed that this

22:13

person could be bounced from a jury

22:17

because their religion tells them to be

22:17

homophobic.

22:20

Well... If that was relevant to the case, they

22:21

should be bounced.

22:23

And there shouldn't be a special set of

22:23

rules that says you have to blind yourself

22:28

to discrimination and to other illegal

22:28

conduct if someone says, oh, but my

22:31

religion tells me I need to do this.

22:33

I think that's BS, frankly.

22:36

And frankly, I think a lot of Christians

22:36

and other religionists would agree with

22:41

me, and they don't bring that kind of

22:41

scorched earth religious agenda into

22:48

public policy. But some do. Yeah, yeah, I understand what you're

22:51

saying.

22:54

You know, it is like interesting because

22:54

trying to find that line where here are my

23:00

beliefs, like we were mentioning like

23:00

universal, like kind of universal beliefs.

23:06

And I guess, how do you figure out if

23:06

something is universal?

23:11

Like for you, like how do you figure out

23:11

like, hey, this is, you know, this is a

23:16

value that is gonna be accepted

23:21

because it's basically, it's so either

23:21

good or on the other side it's so

23:29

obviously bad. Right.

23:31

that this is, we can say that this is

23:31

universal, like the majority of, this is

23:38

going to represent the majority of

23:38

Americans.

23:40

And I'll just give you a little bit of

23:40

context because I've always struggled with

23:43

this. I've always wrestled with this, even just

23:43

as a Christian.

23:46

And I've done a lot of thinking and I've

23:46

really, my views have evolved way more

23:51

than I ever thought they would. My views have, you know, I still have a

23:53

very strong Christian.

23:57

I still believe in Christ and

24:01

and what he did and all of that as a

24:01

pastor.

24:04

But one thing I wonder about, you know,

24:04

you look at laws and you look at like, say

24:08

like the 10 commandments versus like other

24:08

laws that were in the ancient Near East at

24:13

the time. And again, I'm not expecting you to be an

24:14

expert in ancient Near Eastern law or

24:17

anything like that. I'm just saying like, you look at some of

24:18

these things and you see this kind of,

24:22

okay, that makes sense.

24:24

Like, and so we don't have murder and we

24:24

define murder in a certain way.

24:28

And I hear a lot where we can't legislate

24:28

morality,

24:31

And it seems to me we legislate morality

24:31

all the time when we're trying to help

24:36

mitigate behavior.

24:38

So, I don't know, I guess it's more even

24:38

like from your heart, how have you

24:42

wrestled through some of these, like how

24:42

we universalize these laws and make them

24:47

applicable to the widest amount of people?

24:50

It's a great question and a really

24:50

thoughtful way of posing it.

24:55

There are some things that are easier to

24:55

sort of call universal values, right?

25:00

I mean, be nice to people, the stuff they

25:00

teach you in kindergarten, and tell the

25:05

truth, and don't steal, and don't kill

25:05

anyone.

25:09

Yeah, I mean, those are the easy ones. But you're absolutely right.

25:13

You're going to get into areas of

25:13

disagreement, things that I might consider

25:16

universal, that maybe a Republican conservative Christian

25:17

would disagree with, and certainly vice

25:23

versa, because I think Speaker Mike

25:23

Johnson, for example, would consider his

25:29

biblically-based, expansive definition of

25:29

life to be a universal value, certainly

25:36

within his worldview and his community,

25:36

and I disagree completely.

25:42

that that's a universal value. So, you know, I don't have a definitive

25:43

answer to that tough question you've

25:49

posed. I just think we, you know, we can at least

25:49

work in that space where all of us as

25:54

human beings who learned the basics in

25:54

kindergarten ought to be able to regard

25:58

some things as universal and then probably

25:58

have some healthy debate about the rest.

26:04

But yeah, do we legislate morality?

26:06

To some degree, we do, but we should try

26:06

to legislate the morality

26:12

that we share universally, as universally

26:12

as possible, and not try to pick these

26:18

divisive, extreme things that some might

26:18

believe are important moral codes, but

26:24

most of us don't. And this is where the culture war just

26:26

pits us against each other right now,

26:31

because on this issue of life and

26:31

abortion, the majority of Americans do not

26:36

think it's immoral for women to make

26:36

healthcare decisions about their own

26:41

bodies. they think it's really important that they

26:42

have that right.

26:45

And Speaker Johnson and many of my

26:45

colleagues across the aisle feel just the

26:48

opposite. Yeah, you know, it's hard for me to

26:50

believe that you are like one of the only

26:57

secularists in Congress.

27:01

So can you maybe like give me a little bit

27:01

more hope about, you know, sort of like

27:07

where people stand on religious liberty

27:07

within Congress?

27:12

You don't have to name names, but help me

27:12

better understand sort of like, you know,

27:17

people's religious backgrounds in

27:17

Congress.

27:20

Yeah, I will give you some hope here,

27:20

Will.

27:22

You came to the right place. And it starts with this group that I

27:24

founded with Jamie Raskin called the

27:29

Congressional Freethought Caucus.

27:31

Now, I wanna be clear, it's not a bunch of

27:31

infidels and non-believers like me.

27:37

It includes plenty of people of faith.

27:39

It's a group, the 22 members now, that

27:39

looks a lot like America.

27:43

So we have Christians, we have Jews, we

27:43

have Muslims, we have Hindus, we have a

27:52

Buddhist, we have some Unitarians.

27:55

I mean, they can be whatever you want, right? And you got me, the token humanist in the

27:56

United States Congress.

28:01

Out of 535 members of Congress, I'm the

28:01

only one dumb enough to publicly say that

28:07

I don't have a religious belief. That's amazing.

28:10

So it's a really eclectic group, but I'll

28:10

tell you what unifies us is this issue of

28:16

defending our secular government and

28:16

defending what we think is true religious

28:20

liberty. So on the on the Free Thought Caucus, what

28:22

are what are some of the initiatives or

28:28

goals that you all hope to achieve by

28:28

meeting and discussing these issues?

28:33

Yeah, so it varies with each session of

28:33

Congress.

28:37

We try to lay out priorities, but you're

28:37

going to find us working on all sorts of

28:41

interesting things. We have gone after blasphemy laws, which

28:43

is really a nasty pernicious thing.

28:49

If you care about true religious liberty,

28:49

we file amicus briefs in cases that.

28:55

go to the Supreme Court, you know, usually

28:55

for us to lose these days when it comes to

29:01

defining religious liberty. We are very active right now on this issue

29:03

of Christian nationalism and trying to

29:09

really educate. our colleagues in Congress, congressional

29:12

staff, the media and others about what's

29:16

going on. Our Free Thought Caucus was the first to

29:17

sound the alarm about Christian

29:21

nationalism as a national security threat

29:21

a few months before the January 6th

29:25

insurrection. We had a woman named Catherine Stewart,

29:27

who you may know of.

29:30

She's an investigative journalist who's

29:30

written an important book called Power

29:35

Worshippers. Yeah. So she came and spoke to us in the fall

29:37

of...

29:41

2020 before the election, actually in the

29:41

summer.

29:46

helped us begin to highlight this issue.

29:48

Jamie Raskin and I then wrote a memo to

29:48

the incoming Biden administration.

29:52

We were concerned enough at what Catherine

29:52

Stewart had told us that we warned him,

29:56

you need to take this seriously as a

29:56

national security threat.

30:00

But we're really just beginning, I think,

30:00

to get people talking about this.

30:05

The Alabama IVF decision has definitely

30:05

opened a window to talk about it a little

30:10

more candidly than we have in the past,

30:10

but we got a long way to go.

30:16

caucus is really the vanguard of this

30:16

conversation within Congress.

30:21

That's really cool. I need you to tell me more about these

30:23

blasphemy laws.

30:25

Like, can you give us some examples?

30:28

please. You don't want to run afoul of one of

30:29

these? Yeah.

30:34

So, for the most part, they haven't been

30:34

enforced for the last hundred years

30:38

because courts were starting to, you know,

30:38

rule in an obvious way.

30:42

They're unconstitutional. And so I think the last one that tried to

30:44

enforce it was Pennsylvania, and a court

30:49

ruled that that's a violation of the First

30:49

Amendment.

30:52

But there are at least a half dozen states

30:52

in America that still have blasphemy laws

30:57

on the books. And I'll surprise you with one,

30:58

Massachusetts.

31:01

All right, so Massachusetts general law,

31:01

section 36, you can look it up, all the

31:09

way back from the Massachusetts Bay

31:09

Colony, Puritan era Salem witch trial

31:15

days. That's what this law, you know, that's the

31:15

provenance of this law.

31:21

And it's, you read it and you just can't

31:21

even believe it's on the books of the

31:24

state of Massachusetts right now in the

31:24

year 2024, but it's.

31:27

It's all right there. Whoever casts aspersions on God or Jesus

31:28

is guilty of this crime.

31:35

Wow, that's amazing. It's amazing.

31:37

It's like those, you know, have you heard

31:37

those weird like laws where like someone

31:44

can like beat, you know, someone up on the

31:44

steps of the court, like on 3pm on

31:50

Tuesdays? It kind of reminds me like in some laws or

31:51

jurisdictions, they have these ancient

31:55

antiquated that no one ever right.

31:58

But then they're still in the books. Because why?

32:01

Because if they tried to get him off,

32:01

you'd have someone going up in arms.

32:05

And why can't we get back to the old days,

32:05

the good old days, you know, where we

32:09

could get to the court steps at 2 p.m.

32:11

Sorry. You would think it would be pretty

32:12

non-controversial to just repeal some of

32:16

these old anachronisms, but you would have

32:16

to have somebody on from Massachusetts to

32:21

tell you why that law is still on the

32:21

books.

32:24

And of course, in the United States, this

32:24

is a dead letter, right?

32:27

Nobody's enforcing these laws.

32:29

Not so in other places around the world,

32:29

where particularly in Islamic countries

32:35

and other theocracies, blasphemy laws are

32:35

a big deal and people are executed.

32:41

for violating them. So it's a very serious subject.

32:45

Oh, I know it is. I know it is.

32:47

And I definitely, I definitely hear what

32:47

you're saying there.

32:52

I got to ask about this next upcoming 2024

32:52

election.

33:00

What, how are you feeling about this?

33:02

What's the buzz in Congress that we're

33:02

going to have the same two people?

33:07

the same two guys up there.

33:10

I mean, I could ask you about what you

33:10

think about, and again, anything you want

33:14

edited out, we're not like the right or

33:14

left media where we're gonna catch you and

33:22

then we're gonna blast it out. We edit things out that people, if they

33:23

didn't wish they didn't say that or

33:27

whatever. Oh yeah, sorry.

33:30

Josh, you've got to know, you're not

33:30

talking to a super careful politician.

33:35

Otherwise, I would have continued ducking

33:35

questions about my religion.

33:39

And I was dumb enough to answer.

33:43

can it be? What's going on here?

33:45

And like, I just would love to hear your

33:45

thoughts on this upcoming election and

33:50

what you're concerned about. the rematch that no one in America wanted?

33:56

Well, you know, it is what it is. And this is not the first time in my life

33:57

where, you know, I have been presented

34:01

with a choice that is not the one I would

34:01

have ideally preferred, right?

34:07

And so I think now that the die is cast

34:07

and this is what we're gonna see on our

34:13

November ballot, it's time for people to

34:13

just...

34:16

make a choice. And whether you like that choice or not,

34:17

it is gonna affect you and this planet and

34:22

your family and your kids and grandkids in

34:22

a profound way.

34:26

So, you know, I don't spend too much time

34:26

lamenting the fact that Joe Biden has, you

34:33

know, physically slowed down and, you

34:33

know, stumbles once in a while or commits

34:39

gaffes, you know, like he always has.

34:41

I look at the policies, I look at... the good work that he's done.

34:45

And I look at the alternative and as much

34:45

as, yeah, I would love to be voting for

34:49

JFK or Barack Obama this fall, that's not

34:49

the choice I get to make.

34:55

But I will choose Joe Biden every day of

34:55

the week over the alternative.

35:01

Yeah, I'm right there with you.

35:05

You're preaching to the proverbial choir

35:05

here.

35:10

And I'm curious, somewhat afraid that if

35:10

Trump gets elected again...

35:17

all the work that the Free Thought Concuss

35:17

has done is probably going to go to the

35:22

wayside, especially if you take into

35:22

consideration, like the Project 2025, that

35:29

900 page manifesto that really sort of

35:29

seeks to

35:36

change sort of like our democracy pretty

35:36

fundamentally.

35:40

I mean there's stuff in there like you

35:40

know working on the Sabbath and stuff like

35:45

that so I'd love to just get your thoughts

35:45

if you're familiar with Project 2025 and

35:49

what... All too familiar and it's chilling.

35:52

And yeah, some of the definitions of

35:52

things that would be deemed pornographic

35:56

and banned and illegal and criminalized,

35:56

the chilling effect that it would have on

36:02

this country in service of again, that

36:02

Christian nationalist agenda in the case

36:09

of this transphobic and homophobic policy

36:09

that they're trying to embed in Project

36:17

2025. There's all kinds of reasons.

36:20

The elimination of safeguards, checks and

36:20

balances so that we can just kind of cut

36:24

through all the chaos they've created and

36:24

get right to a fascist theocracy.

36:30

That's what I see in the shadows of

36:30

Project 2025.

36:34

And I'm certainly not the only one to see

36:34

it that way.

36:36

So the stakes are super high.

36:39

Will the Free Thought Caucus be irrelevant

36:39

if Donald Trump somehow wins?

36:45

I mean, I don't like to think about that

36:45

scenario at all, but I would tell you that

36:48

probably for the first few months, we

36:48

would be more relevant than ever because

36:53

we've been sounding the alarm against this

36:53

agenda way before anyone else was.

36:59

And I think we would try to step our game

36:59

up as much as possible to make sure that

37:03

America and any people of good conscience

37:03

that are still left in the Congress know

37:08

what is happening because we could lose it

37:08

all when it comes to democracy, separation

37:14

of church and state. and other values. I hope we don't ever get to that point,

37:16

but I guess I would say even if Biden

37:21

prevails, which I hope he does, these

37:21

issues are gonna continue to be hugely

37:26

important because this movement, this

37:26

Christian nationalist movement is not

37:30

going away. They have sort of tasted power in the

37:32

first four years of the Trump

37:36

administration. And anyone who thought that after January

37:37

6th, they sort of got their comeuppance

37:42

and went away is not paying attention.

37:45

because they are stronger than ever. They are more mobilized than ever.

37:48

They are more determined than ever to lock

37:48

in this theocracy agenda of theirs.

37:54

And even if Biden manages to prevail,

37:54

they're gonna keep coming.

38:00

You know, I got to, and this is going to

38:00

be a slight, slight shift in topic, but

38:04

it's, it's still very relevant.

38:07

How do you, well, I, what I wanted to ask

38:07

actually originally was what's the most

38:12

important thing that Congress needs to do,

38:12

you know, when, if Biden wins and if Trump

38:19

wins, and maybe they're the same thing,

38:19

but with somehow this came out of that and

38:24

you can answer those or not.

38:27

But this idea of what

38:29

What do you think about AI?

38:33

What is Congress need to do in any

38:33

legislation given the pervasiveness of

38:40

this artificial intelligence now in our

38:40

society?

38:44

That's not going anywhere. That can give any bias that's made and put

38:46

in the creators of these things can be

38:51

amplified a million times, right?

38:56

By these bots that never sleep.

38:58

And they continue. And again, I don't like, I'm not, I try

38:59

not to be, like I try not to have my

39:03

tinfoil hat on. I try not to be a conspiracy theorist, but

39:05

I don't think this is conspiracy in the

39:09

sense of what is the benefit that you see

39:09

and what are the really serious concerns

39:16

that you see that Congress needs to

39:16

address regarding this.

39:20

not expect to answer a question about

39:20

artificial intelligence on your podcast,

39:24

but I'm happy to, happy to free associate

39:24

with you on this.

39:29

And I will just tell you that I think

39:29

Congress, you know, you don't want

39:36

Congress to kind of get into the weeds and

39:36

micromanage in this space.

39:40

I don't think we would anyway.

39:43

But I think Congress has to look at some

39:43

of the worst possible.

39:48

uses of this technology and put some

39:48

sideboards in place.

39:53

And that's where you alluded to a couple

39:53

of them.

39:57

One is the sort of inherent bias in the

39:57

development of artificial intelligence to

40:01

try to make sure that at least the input

40:01

that goes into these AI technologies is

40:08

not, stacked with some racial, ethnic,

40:08

political or other agenda that is gonna

40:14

corrupt the way it's used.

40:17

Obviously, in the national security space

40:17

and the privacy space and other things,

40:22

we've got all kinds of ways in which we

40:22

need to protect against bad outcomes.

40:28

I don't think we ever want to see

40:28

artificial intelligence making life and

40:32

death decisions about how a weapon targets

40:32

someone in any capacity, really.

40:40

So that's another example of where we can

40:40

put some sideboards.

40:45

laws in place and begin to have a lot more

40:45

oversight and accountability.

40:49

But right now we have none of it.

40:51

So you're absolutely right that it is

40:51

here.

40:54

It is upon us. The other way I'm worrying about AI is the

40:56

energy demand.

41:01

I just read a piece yesterday about how

41:01

it's so computer intensive, so energy

41:08

intensive to crunch all of this data and

41:08

produce these results that now we're

41:14

you know, using in an almost routine way

41:14

with chat, GPT, with AI things happening

41:19

in the background that we don't even know

41:19

about.

41:21

All of it is just doubling, tripling,

41:21

quadrupling electrical demand in some

41:27

parts of the country in ways that grid

41:27

operators didn't see common.

41:31

And it's on the verge of crashing our kind

41:31

of creaky old electrical grid.

41:35

So it's forcing us to rethink our grid,

41:35

rethink our grid planning and permitting

41:41

and approval. And our energy mix, you know, we have

41:42

these climate goals.

41:44

We're trying to save the planet for our

41:44

kids and grandkids by rapidly

41:48

transitioning to clean energy. But the combination of the strain on the

41:51

grid and just the need for those

41:57

electrical demands is gonna really

41:57

frustrate us.

42:01

And, you know, I see the same thing when

42:01

it comes to cryptocurrency, which I regard

42:05

as a solution in search of a problem, but

42:05

it...

42:10

depending on the type of crypto, if it's

42:10

this proof of work version of it versus

42:16

proof of concept, I don't wanna take you

42:16

down the rabbit hole too much further, but

42:20

it can have a massive energy demand and

42:20

can have some of these same effects.

42:24

So we're gonna have to reconcile our

42:24

climate and energy policies with some of

42:28

these technologies that left unregulated

42:28

are gonna do a lot of harm, societally and

42:35

environmentally. Yeah, I mean, it's so fascinating because

42:37

I mean, I've known people and know people

42:43

that, you know, they're building crypto

42:43

farms that are going to other countries to

42:50

build crypto farms. And it's going to take all of this energy,

42:52

right?

42:54

And AI is all a part of that.

42:56

And just like this quick concern, like, do

42:56

you think, and this is kind of tongue in

43:01

cheek, so answer however you want. But do you think that we have like staff,

43:03

congressional staff?

43:07

members using chat GBT to write

43:07

legislation?

43:13

And is there like, I mean, I'm just trying

43:13

to really figure this out.

43:16

Like, what does that mean? Because I get these laws, they're huge.

43:19

And it's like, how do we even understand

43:19

this?

43:22

And is it just going to be like chat bots

43:22

writing legislation for chat bots, and

43:26

then we got to figure out what they're doing? A little tongue in cheek there, but do you

43:28

think people are or is it are you

43:32

disallowed from using it? Yeah, well, technically I think our staff

43:34

is not supposed to use it for any of the

43:39

documents. Any of the work they do for me had better

43:40

not be ChatGPT.

43:44

And I don't think it is. But yeah, would I be shocked to hear that

43:46

congressional staffers are out using

43:49

ChatGPT, maybe not on their official

43:49

congressional computers, maybe at home or

43:55

whatever, to produce the letters to

43:55

constituents?

43:58

And of course, I mean. It's going to be the same for

43:59

congressional staffers as college students

44:03

writing their, you know, term papers and

44:03

other things.

44:07

This is, you know, tempting and inviting,

44:07

and we're going to have to figure all of

44:12

this out in the brave new world.

44:15

That's so funny. I will disclose that I use chat GBT to

44:17

help me sort through a lot of these bills

44:23

because I'm that type of voter that likes

44:23

to actually read the bills and whatnot.

44:29

And then when AI came along, I can just

44:29

upload the whole thing and then just ask

44:33

the questions, which is wonderful.

44:35

Which if you're watching or listening, to

44:35

be more engaged in the political system, I

44:40

encourage everybody to do that. So.

44:43

But you know, the flip side of this

44:43

though, guys, is sometimes I have to have,

44:47

I have to give what we call one minute

44:47

speeches on the floor.

44:51

And, you know, if I have a very junior

44:51

staff or an intern or someone like that

44:55

writing a one minute speech that I've got

44:55

to go deliver without a lot of time to

45:00

review it and edit it and work on it, the

45:00

quality is often better from chat GPT.

45:06

I, I have seen what chat GPT can do.

45:11

And, you know, I don't mean to invite

45:11

anyone in Congress to do this, but, you

45:18

know, I've gotten some real junk in my

45:18

hand that I'm supposed to go stand on the

45:21

floor of the Congress and read as a

45:21

speech.

45:24

And I'm not sure that I wouldn't trade

45:24

that for a well-done chat GPT product.

45:30

I understand. That's so funny. We actually talked to a lot of professors

45:32

on this show, and occasionally we'll bring

45:37

that up. I'd hate to be a professor during this

45:38

time because I had to actually read books

45:43

when I was in college. I didn't get the summary.

45:47

But anyways, I want to sort of like course

45:47

correct, get us back.

45:51

99% of my staff draft speeches are

45:51

excellent.

45:54

So lest any of my staff listen to this and

45:54

take offense, you know.

45:59

That's awesome. So you mentioned earlier about Catherine

45:59

Stewart coming at, warn you about

46:05

Christian nationalism. She's great, by the way, we've had her on

46:07

the show a couple times.

46:09

And I'd love to kind of get your thoughts

46:09

about the Christian nationalism influences

46:18

that you saw on January 6. Because I think for a lot of people,

46:22

especially folks that don't really like

46:22

follow this space very closely.

46:25

You know, they just think, oh, there's

46:25

just some made up liberal scare tactic,

46:29

you know, to ostracize all Christians or

46:29

something.

46:32

So, so I'd love to hear from you. Yeah, just use your lion eyes and take a

46:33

look at what was going on January 6th.

46:39

You don't need to believe me. You don't need to believe Catherine

46:41

Stewart or anyone else.

46:44

Just look at the footage. The symbology, the slogans, just the

46:45

outpouring of religiosity in the Capitol

46:55

mob that day was undeniable.

46:59

It was everywhere. The appeal to heaven flags that were being

47:00

used to crash through the capital doors

47:06

and windows and beat cops over the head,

47:06

and other Christian flags and symbols and

47:11

Bibles held aloft by rioters that were

47:11

doing all of the worst violence.

47:16

I mean, the grotesque prayer on the Senate

47:16

floor by the QAnon shaman, I could go on

47:23

and on. But the truth is that insurrection was

47:23

just seething.

47:28

with Christian nationalism. Some of the leading Christian nationalist

47:30

faith leaders were on site, were preaching

47:36

from just a few feet away from this riot

47:36

as it was unfolding.

47:41

There were hymns and shofars were blowing.

47:44

It was a Christian nationalist production

47:44

in many ways.

47:47

Not that there weren't others involved in

47:47

the riot too, but even the proud boys and

47:52

oath keepers knelt in Christian prayer.

47:56

perform a Christian prayer and streamed it

47:56

and stuff.

48:00

So I don't mean, this is not

48:00

anti-Christian to point these things out.

48:05

It's just kind of pro-reality of what

48:05

actually happened that day.

48:10

And we need to talk about it more because

48:10

the January 6th committee for all of its

48:14

great work in preserving the history of

48:14

that day, how it was planned and executed,

48:19

what happened, they said almost nothing

48:19

about Christian nationalism.

48:24

I think they had 150 or so page report.

48:27

And Christian nationalism appears, I

48:27

believe, only once when they mentioned

48:32

that Nick Fuentes, one of the plotters of

48:32

the insurrection, held extreme violent

48:39

Christian nationalist views. And that's about it.

48:42

Now I know for a fact that members of that

48:42

committee and staff and the record that

48:48

they had to work with, the depositions and

48:48

other things, were filled.

48:52

with information that pointed to Christian

48:52

nationalism as a big part of the January

48:56

6th insurrection, a political decision was

48:56

made to not talk about it.

49:02

And I think that's a problem. And I think it's part of a problem we

49:04

continue to encounter in this space.

49:09

No one wants to be accused of being

49:09

anti-Christian.

49:12

No one wants to face the kind of backlash

49:12

that comes when you speak out on this

49:18

subject. And if you want a great example, talk

49:18

to...

49:21

Politico reporter Heidi Perspilow right

49:21

now, who has been catching hell from Tony

49:27

Perkins and others on the Christian right,

49:27

because she dared to speak out against

49:31

Christian nationalism in a TV interview.

49:35

So it's not for the faint of heart to go

49:35

in and criticize this movement.

49:38

It's why I really commend you guys for

49:38

having the guts to talk honestly about it.

49:43

It's why I'm just a huge fan of faith

49:43

leaders like Amanda Tyler, who also had

49:49

the courage to talk. Yeah, you know, it's and that's that

49:52

brings up a really interesting point

49:55

because one of my questions is like, how

49:55

do you tackle Christian nationalism?

50:01

I mean, it's just like, you know, it's an

50:01

ideology for some.

50:05

Maybe it's even a theology.

50:09

And how do you can't like write a law that

50:09

bans Christian nationalism, you know?

50:14

And and maybe rightly, I say that

50:14

somewhat, you know,

50:22

like somewhat lightly in the sense that

50:22

you can't, if you are trying to get rid of

50:28

Christian nationalism, you're going to

50:28

ostracize Christians like Josh, like

50:33

myself, because yeah, because

50:37

is a delicate balance. I think you framed it just right.

50:40

How do you do that without disrespecting

50:40

Christians?

50:45

And I have my own thoughts about that.

50:48

I'm a non-believer, so what I do and say

50:48

in this space may be indelicate.

50:55

It may not be deferential enough, but it's

50:55

why advocates like Amanda Tyler are so

51:01

important. And she's not the only one.

51:03

You guys know this, there's a growing

51:03

number of sincere, serious Christians that

51:09

are tackling this from a Christian

51:09

perspective and when they do it's just

51:14

harder for the Christian Nationalists to

51:14

use their go-to playbook calling them

51:20

persecutors and anti-Christians.

51:24

Yeah, you know, so I'm a patriot and I

51:24

always have been and I am thankful for

51:36

the... influence that this country has had on me

51:41

and I have always kind of felt like, I

51:47

mean, I just love this country so much.

51:50

I love the American experiment of trying

51:50

to have this, you know, constitutional

51:58

republic and make it happen in the way

51:58

that we've had such diversity in this

52:03

country is amazing.

52:05

And I'm a very, very strong Christian and

52:05

I...

52:10

I want to preserve both of those things.

52:13

And I would love to hear from you like for

52:13

guys like me and for guys that, you know,

52:20

guys that are way already on the edge

52:20

there at January 6th.

52:24

I'm not saying that they're beyond the pale or anything

52:26

like that, I would sit down and have a

52:30

conversation with one of them and talk to

52:30

them and love them personally as a brother

52:34

or sister in Christ.

52:37

As a congressman, what do you want guys

52:37

like me into the right of me?

52:44

to hear from you about this next election

52:44

season, the future of our country.

52:51

What appeal do you want to make that's

52:51

worth thinking about this, thinking about

52:56

our votes, thinking about using our

52:56

influence as Patriots and Christians?

53:01

How do you want us to be involved? What's your appeal to the people I

53:04

represent?

53:09

Well, thanks. You know, I guess for starters, I would

53:10

hope we can all agree that political

53:15

violence or religious violence needs to be

53:15

off the table.

53:19

We need to condemn it. We need to not incite it.

53:24

And this is where, you know, a lot of

53:24

the...

53:27

New Apostolic Reformation, you know,

53:27

apostles and prophets and other Christian

53:32

nationalist leaders, I believe have really

53:32

crossed a line.

53:35

Now they would tell you, we didn't tell

53:35

anyone to go hurt people, we didn't tell

53:38

anyone to crash through the Capitol. But they walked right up to that line with

53:40

their rhetoric.

53:43

It was so incendiary, so combustible when

53:43

they talked to people about getting their

53:48

swords bloody, like folks from the Old

53:48

Testament in some great battle.

53:53

I mean, it's not subtle what they're

53:53

telling people,

53:57

well we didn't say go engage in violence

53:57

but really they are saying it in lots of

54:03

ways and we cannot give religious cover to

54:03

violence and I would hope that that's

54:09

something that all of us can take out to

54:09

our communities and networks.

54:15

Beyond that, Josh, I think it's important

54:15

to...

54:19

to affirm that no one is trying to deny

54:19

the profound influence Christianity has

54:26

had on this country, societally,

54:26

culturally, historically.

54:30

It's obviously an essential part of the

54:30

belief system that has dominated our

54:38

history and our culture and still does.

54:42

So, you know, I feel like so much of this

54:42

culture war and the political

54:48

manifestation of the culture war comes

54:48

from this feeling that someone's trying to

54:53

take that away from us. And, you know, I think it's important to

54:56

say that that's—I don't think that's

55:01

happening. I think this is additive.

55:04

You know, I think yes, our country is

55:04

diversifying.

55:07

It's becoming more secular. Things are changing, but no one's taken

55:08

anything away.

55:14

It, you know, it's a little bit like me as

55:14

a white guy, right, you know, patriarchy's

55:19

had a pretty darn good run for a long

55:19

time, but I am comfortable.

55:25

with my fading patriarchy, nobody's taking

55:25

anything away from me.

55:30

It just means maybe it's time for, you

55:30

know, indigenous people and people of

55:33

color and women and people with

55:33

disabilities and others to have a fair

55:37

shake. And I just hope that we can come to look

55:39

at things that way, a little more

55:42

tolerantly, a little more inclusively. It doesn't mean we're taking anything away

55:44

from those who have been part of the

55:48

dominant culture for so long. That's really great.

55:52

Yeah, there's a great saying, you know,

55:52

that when you're in the majority, equality

55:57

feels like oppression, right? So that's that definitely seems like to be

55:58

the case here.

56:03

So my last question for you, Congressman,

56:03

is tell us tell us about the future.

56:09

Like, what are what are what are some

56:09

things that make you hopeful?

56:14

What are some things that you're working

56:14

on that maybe you want to, you know, give

56:18

some daylight to? you know, and maybe, you know, what can

56:20

people expect from a religious liberty

56:26

standpoint if Trump gets elected again?

56:31

Yeah, look, I don't want to sugarcoat it. Well, I'm real worried about the future

56:33

when it comes to religious liberty.

56:37

And some of that is regardless of how this

56:37

presidential election comes out, because

56:44

this Supreme Court is hardwired toward an

56:44

agenda that is going to continue to

56:50

essentially write the Establishment Clause

56:50

out of the Constitution.

56:55

They just think pretty much.

56:58

to enforce the Establishment Clause is to

56:58

violate the Free Exercise Clause.

57:02

And I think it's a complete misread.

57:05

I think it has all sorts of terrible

57:05

consequences for separation of church and

57:09

state, but you're going to continue to see

57:09

terrible decisions from them.

57:12

You're probably going to see them

57:12

recognize a parochial Catholic.

57:17

public school in Oklahoma or one of these

57:17

other things, these cases that just keep

57:22

filtering up to them and they keep taking

57:22

review because they want to tear down the

57:27

separation of church and state and advance

57:27

this extreme agenda.

57:31

So I'm really worried about where these

57:31

court decisions are going to take us.

57:35

I'm really worried about how divided our

57:35

country is.

57:38

If this were just a question of Congress

57:38

fixing bad court decisions,

57:43

It's not that simple when we're as divided

57:43

as we are and Congress keeps flipping back

57:48

and forth in this, you know, all or

57:48

nothing, zero sum fight we seem to be in.

57:54

So none of it, you know, bodes well for

57:54

thoughtful, you know, resolutions that are

58:01

consensus based. But the fight is super important for those

58:03

of us who...

58:07

believe in these values.

58:09

And so I've got to believe we will

58:09

prevail.

58:11

The hope is in the younger generation and

58:11

the fact that they want nothing to do with

58:16

this stupid culture war. They're just done with it.

58:20

And they care about climate change.

58:22

And they really, I think, are the best

58:22

hope that we have.

58:27

We've just got to make sure we don't screw

58:27

everything up before they get into power.

58:32

That's so awesome. You know, when we spoke with Tim Alberta,

58:33

I had asked him a similar question about

58:39

kind of like what gives him hope and he

58:39

said something very similar.

58:42

He's like young people, you know, give him

58:42

a lot of hope, which is good.

58:47

I mean, like, it's good to have hope

58:47

whether you are a believer or not

58:51

believer. So, you know, I think that that's a really

58:52

good place to end our discussion.

58:57

So thank you so much, Congressman, for

58:57

coming to join us on our show.

59:00

This has been a... It was a really good conversation and I

59:03

really enjoyed talking to you.

59:07

Well, it was a pleasure. You guys have a great podcast.

59:10

I've enjoyed listening to it, and I hope

59:10

you'll have me back sometime.

59:12

Yeah, we'll do. And to our listeners and audience, make

59:14

sure you keep your conversations not

59:19

right, not left, but up. And we'll see you next week.

59:21

Take care.