0:17

Hey, welcome back, Faithful Politics

0:17

listeners and viewers.

0:19

If you're watching us on our YouTube

0:19

channel, I'm your political host, Will

0:22

Wright, and I'm joined by your faithful

0:22

host, Pastor Josh Bertram.

0:26

How's it going, Josh? Doing well.

0:28

Thanks, Will. Hey, and this week we are delighted to

0:29

have with us Jordan Green.

0:33

He's an investigative correspondent based

0:33

in Greensboro, North Carolina Who covers

0:37

right-wing extremism for a raw story His

0:37

work's been featured in a host of

0:42

publications including the Washington

0:42

Post, Daily Beast, The Nation Um in these

0:47

times, Sorgenors and many more and he's

0:47

here today to talk with us about wait, is

0:53

this right? Nazis? Um, so welcome to the show, uh, Joshua, or

0:55

I'm sorry, Jordan, my apologies.

1:01

Thank you, Will. be here. Thank you for having me, Will and Josh.

1:05

Yeah, so, um, I, I guess, I guess I, I

1:05

would be remiss if I didn't ask, like,

1:14

we're here to talk about Nazis, but

1:14

weren't the Nazis defeated, like, in World

1:18

War II? Like, why are we talking about Nazis?

1:23

Yes, they were. And then there was an American Nazi party

1:25

that was founded not too long after that.

1:32

And yeah, I mean, this is a continuous

1:32

history.

1:36

Where I live in Greensboro, there was

1:36

notoriously a massacre carried out by a

1:44

coalition of Klansmen. Nazis against labor and anti-racist

1:46

activists who were members of the

1:52

Communist Worker Party. For those who don't know, the Nazis

1:55

attacked the beginning of this march in a

2:02

black public housing project in

2:02

Greensboro.

2:06

The shooting killings were carried out on

2:06

video cameras and the...

2:13

Nazis and Klansmen were acquitted in two

2:13

criminal trials on the self-defense

2:20

because although the Nazis fired the first

2:20

shot, they were warning shots into the

2:26

air. I may have this somewhat wrong, so I

2:30

apologize for that, but there was a

2:37

self-defense, successful self-defense

2:37

strategy.

2:43

I mean Kathleen Blue has written about the

2:43

Greensboro Massacre was kind of the

2:47

beginning of the revolutionary white power

2:47

movement when.

2:54

White supremacy, violent white supremacist

2:54

groups had previously been kind of an

3:00

extension, vigilante extensions of the

3:00

state, but after the Vietnam War, there

3:05

was a sense of betrayal after the civil

3:05

rights movement and civil rights laws.

3:12

white supremacists decided they had to

3:12

overthrow the United States government.

3:17

And so the groups that I have been writing

3:17

about are the heirs of that legacy.

3:22

And it continued through Timothy McVeigh

3:22

with the Oklahoma City bombing and the

3:30

various mass shootings, massacre carried

3:30

out by Dylann Roof.

3:36

So sorry, I tried to summarize this.

3:40

no, but no, you're doing just fine.

3:42

Yeah, because the majority of your

3:42

reporting and specifically kind of what we

3:48

are having you on today to talk about is

3:48

sort of this new faction of neo-Nazi

3:54

groups. So so maybe you can talk a little bit

3:54

about that, like the I don't know, 2119

3:59

blood and soil crew. Yeah, that's the specific group that I've

4:01

written about, but they're part of a

4:05

larger ecosystem and there are other rival

4:05

groups that are like them out there.

4:13

So what I would say is they come out of

4:13

the broader neo-Nazi movement that has

4:21

emerged since January 6, called the Active

4:21

Clubs.

4:26

The founder of the Active Clubs, Robert

4:26

Rundow, is actually charged with inciting

4:31

a riot. And a judge in California, a federal

4:32

judge, actually threw out his case.

4:40

But in any case, they are kind of the more

4:40

violent and extreme aspect of this active

4:49

club movement. They're a lot younger teenagers, people

4:51

who came of age or were adolescents during

5:00

Donald Trump's first campaign in 2016.

5:05

And there's been a lot of.

5:08

kind of push back against the MAGA

5:08

extremism from January 6th due to the

5:15

prosecutions and so these more violent and

5:15

more extreme groups are kind of moving

5:21

into that vacuum and um...

5:25

just to kind of wrap up, you know the

5:25

activity that I read about is um...

5:31

Hate crimes but vandalism attacks

5:31

targeting Jews, African Americans, LGBTQ

5:38

folks. It's important to say though that they

5:39

aspire to more extreme violence because

5:45

their online chatter is valorizing mass

5:45

shooters and industrial sabotage.

5:53

They're part of an accelerationist.

5:56

tendency in the white supremacist movement

5:56

that rejects elections and political

6:02

solutions to achieve their objectives they

6:02

feel like they need to bring about a

6:07

collapse of American society so that's how

6:07

I kind of...

6:13

So, well that's, I mean that's...

6:17

fascinating and horrifying at the same

6:17

time.

6:21

What take a step back again, because I

6:21

think the history is really important here

6:26

for people who are listening to our show

6:26

to understand kind of what's really going

6:33

on. You're talking just and I'll kind of

6:34

summarize it and then have you speak on a

6:39

little bit more of the history. What I'm hearing is that there's this.

6:44

new kind of surge of different hate groups

6:44

that have in particular come into

6:52

existence since the 2016 Donald Trump

6:52

election and then maybe even been

6:57

accelerated after the 2020 election and

6:57

these groups are violent or at least

7:05

aspiring to violence.

7:07

And there's this major goal, this kind of

7:07

endpoint that they're...

7:13

going where it's to essentially create a

7:13

collapse of society that then creates a

7:20

race war that then drives everyone who's

7:20

not Anglo and white out of the out of the

7:29

United States and then they rebuild the

7:29

country as a white supremacist country.

7:35

Is that the idea?

7:38

What's the history? What's the overall goal and how has this

7:39

come?

7:42

How have we come to this place here in

7:42

America?

7:47

Yeah, great question. And I think you summarized the goals

7:48

pretty well.

7:55

And it goes back to, I always cite

7:55

Kathleen Bellew.

7:59

She wrote a really excellent book called

7:59

Bring the War Home about the white power

8:04

movement and the aftermath of Vietnam.

8:10

She writes about in 1983, there was kind

8:10

of a convergence of.

8:15

revolutionary white power groups.

8:19

So their goal is to create a white

8:19

ethnostate.

8:24

They see it as incremental.

8:28

They don't believe it's really, and

8:28

they're right.

8:31

It's not realistic to think they could

8:31

just flip a switch and take control of the

8:36

United States government. So they want to kind of create just...

8:43

establish influence in rural predominantly

8:43

white areas like the Pacific Northwest,

8:49

Appalachia, the Ozarks, and then kind of

8:49

build a white ethnostate so they see the

8:55

necessity of breaking apart the United

8:55

States.

9:00

And then you were asking like how did we

9:00

get here?

9:05

So after Charlottesville in 2017, there

9:05

was a big backlash against what was then

9:13

called the alt-right movement because of

9:13

the murder of Heather Heyer.

9:18

So some of the groups in that coalition

9:18

became more mainstream and concerned about

9:24

optics. And others took a more kind of underground

9:25

terrorist approach.

9:31

And then we saw the rise of Adam Waffen.

9:35

and the base, those two groups were

9:35

largely dismantled in 2019, 2020 by the

9:43

FBI. And so you saw that kind of terrorist

9:46

activity, white supremacist terrorist

9:54

activity abate for a while.

9:57

And then as I was saying earlier, when the

9:57

prosecution of the January 6th defendants

10:04

kind of put the MAGA movement on its

10:04

heels.

10:08

Now this terrorist wing is kind of

10:08

resurgent.

10:13

That's kind of the sequence that I see.

10:18

Got it. And he said, so this group in particular,

10:19

the 219, yeah, like what's, yeah, what's,

10:30

I guess what's the significance of the

10:30

name, the number?

10:33

Is it, it's a link to something? I'm glad you asked because I'm just so

10:35

immersed in this stuff.

10:38

I forget to state the obvious, but blood

10:38

and soil is a Nazi slogan of the Third

10:44

Reich. So they are, you know, just to be clear,

10:46

they are unabashedly, unapologetically

10:52

pushing Nazism and they talk about a

10:52

Fourth Reich, you know, so they see

10:59

themselves as helping establish something

10:59

that would replicate or succeed with Adolf

11:05

Hitler. did in Nazi Germany.

11:09

Hmm. Yeah. So, so, so that's the blood and soil is

11:10

the 2119 is that is that like

11:16

it's a numeric code. You see a lot of neo-Nazi groups do this.

11:20

Well, actually, any kind of gang,

11:20

honestly.

11:25

Two equates to B for blood.

11:29

One equates to A for and.

11:33

Nineteen is... S is the 19th letter of the alphabet, so

11:34

19 stands for soil.

11:40

Interesting. That's so weird.

11:42

I remember when I was in college, one of

11:42

my favorite bands was this band called

11:49

311. And I remember some of my friends were

11:52

like, oh, you know, that's a racist band,

11:57

right? Because like 11 is like the 11th letter of

11:57

the alphabet, it's K and three, it's like

12:03

means it's KKK. And I'm like, I don't know about that, you

12:04

know, but.

12:07

Oh, I don't think that's the case, but

12:07

yeah, I hadn't heard that, but...

12:10

..the same logic.

12:13

Wow. Yeah, but it is weird how people sort of

12:13

like use kind of like, I don't know,

12:17

numerology to sort of, you know, make a

12:17

point.

12:20

But is this group primarily located in the

12:20

south or is it like a much broader

12:26

network? Oh, all over the country.

12:31

From, I mean, so my story mentions that

12:31

there are criminal cases being

12:37

investigated in North Carolina and New

12:37

Hampshire.

12:41

Members are facing charges in Florida.

12:45

There's documented activity in California.

12:48

And really, due to the fact that they're

12:48

organized through the internet.

12:55

They're talking with people all over the

12:55

world.

12:57

So I've even heard that there are members

12:57

who claim to be 2119 in the UK.

13:07

Dude, that's amazing. I mean, in a bad way.

13:12

It's like, I mean, like this thing is so

13:12

like spread all over the place.

13:19

What exactly, how are they doing this?

13:22

Can you kind of speak to, how are they

13:22

radicalizing kids?

13:30

like young, I'm reading some of the

13:30

articles that you posted, kids as young as

13:36

13, 12, whatever, they can't drive leaders

13:36

in the thing or 17 years old.

13:42

It's like, what, what is 17 year olds

13:42

leading anything?

13:45

What does that even mean? I mean, yeah, how, what, what's, how are

13:46

they doing this exactly?

13:54

Well, you know, the power of the internet

13:54

and just to get kind of briefly to talk

14:00

about the global aspect is, you know, it

14:00

is ironic that they call themselves

14:07

nationalists because they are really, I

14:07

mean, they're more transnational than

14:12

anything else. I mean, this really goes back.

14:15

a long time to the 1980s that these groups

14:15

have kind of reinforced each other across

14:22

global boundaries. But the internet is the engine of

14:23

radicalization and it's also the thing

14:30

that brings them across together across

14:30

state lines and national lines.

14:39

Yeah, you know, I've just been puzzling

14:39

through this myself, but as I think about

14:44

it... They are able to kind of create an online

14:46

persona to where a 13 year old can kind of

14:57

adopt the persona of this like 30 year old

14:57

paramilitary super soldier and they

15:05

project it to each other and they say and

15:05

share things that are shocking to build

15:12

clout with each other. And part of the way that 2199 was

15:15

organized, to my understanding, it was

15:24

founded by Waylon Fowler, this 17-year-old

15:24

who's currently facing charges for a brick

15:31

attack against the synagogue in Pensacola.

15:34

But it was started on a Discord channel,

15:34

which is a way that just mainstream

15:40

teenagers get together and chat about

15:40

gaming.

15:45

He would kind of stoke, develop

15:45

relationships, invite adolescents in and

15:54

push them towards discriminatory beliefs

15:54

and then they started this new thing

16:00

called 2119 and they pushed the kids to

16:00

show some in real life action.

16:10

To put up a flyer or...

16:13

spray-painted some graffiti and then

16:13

posted on the channel.

16:17

And so, I guess it's just kind of like a

16:17

feedback loop of online and in real life

16:28

that kind of carries it forward. Does that answer your question?

16:32

Because it is a really complex and

16:32

dynamic, and I mean, we have so, we really

16:40

understand so little of it because...

16:43

I feel like we've only been in this space

16:43

for about 10 years where children's

16:49

experiences online and I've talked to

16:49

experts who are saying the internet that

16:56

you knew a year ago is not the same

16:56

internet that exists.

17:03

And it's different for teenagers than it

17:03

is for us because all of us have

17:10

algorithms that

17:12

show us what they think we want to see to

17:12

keep us engaged.

17:19

And one of the experts pointed out to me

17:19

that when 13 year olds come online, they

17:25

don't have the history that we do going

17:25

back 15 years.

17:29

And so TikTok or Instagram shows them

17:29

what, they use an algorithm for, I don't

17:39

know, like a different subset of.

17:42

I don't know how it's, it's not their

17:42

algorithm.

17:45

to like build like and understand what

17:45

their interests are and so it's throwing a

17:50

massive amount of things at them just to

17:50

kind of see where they click what they

17:55

look at all that kind of stuff and then it

17:55

will begin to filter that down and make it

18:01

more precise i mean when you talked about

18:01

you know roblox waffen or yeah something

18:10

like that i mean my you know

18:13

I have my son plays Roblox and I know that

18:13

he's got a lot of friends.

18:20

So I am very controlling on who he's

18:20

friends with.

18:23

Probably for this very reason it

18:23

reinforces it.

18:27

But it's like what I mean, is it because

18:27

these platforms they don't allow access

18:33

because of You know, they won't take these things

18:35

down because of the ripple effect it would

18:40

have to other groups if they started

18:40

reinforcing the stuff for letting law

18:44

enforcement. I mean, it's a really it's a difficult

18:45

problem because if you let law enforcement

18:49

come in and just, you know, you give them

18:49

their telegram.

18:53

I saw a lot about telegram. You give them that account.

18:58

You let law enforcement come in, and then

18:58

what does that mean?

19:02

So then we just know that the government

19:02

has access to all of our stuff no matter

19:05

what, and does that violate our rights in

19:05

some way?

19:11

It's a difficult thing. And then, yeah, I mean, I can feel your

19:13

pain in that this is a hard nut to crack

19:23

in terms of figuring out how all this

19:23

stuff happens.

19:27

Yeah, I certainly don't have the expertise

19:27

on technology and regulation, but I hear

19:36

reporters talking about it.

19:39

And I think I do come down on the

19:39

regulation side.

19:44

I mean, one person put it like, we created

19:44

the internet, we dropped it on our, we

19:51

dropped this bomb on our children.

19:53

And we do have a... responsibility to control it and to kind

19:56

of protect our children from the toxic

20:04

elements of it. I mean the same way that we would regulate

20:05

who comes in and out of a school building

20:11

or school grounds. Yeah.

20:14

So I'm really interested in kind of like

20:14

how the organization or how they decide

20:28

what crimes they want to commit.

20:30

I mean, I'm just thinking like, is the

20:30

radicalization like sort of very organic

20:36

because you're kind of building this

20:36

community and then you want to sort of

20:39

like be one of the cool kids and...

20:43

And then once you are a cool kid, is it

20:43

like on telegram, you're like, hey, who

20:48

wants to meet me at this synagogue and do

20:48

some crimes?

20:52

Is it like that, or is it just basically

20:52

just a one upper organic type of things

21:01

that they do to try to impress everybody

21:01

else?

21:06

Yeah, I looked at a lot of the telegram

21:06

channels, but I'm not privy to the very

21:10

internal ones. But my understanding from what others have

21:11

told me is that there's just a strong

21:16

encouragement to do, you know, what they

21:16

would call in real life activities to show

21:25

their commitment. But yeah, so we're talking about

21:28

teenagers.

21:31

So most of them don't drive.

21:34

So. you can imagine that it would be a lot of

21:36

solo activity.

21:41

And then, you know, there is a effort to

21:41

kind of get like-minded people together

21:49

who are in the same geographic space.

21:53

So typically what I find with these types

21:53

of groups is that if they live an hour or

22:01

maybe two hours away from each other,

22:01

they'll make some effort to meet in

22:05

person. and 2119 leaders have talked about like

22:06

getting together in person, doing leaders

22:15

doing national tours to meet with the

22:15

members across the country.

22:23

So yeah, that is a logistical challenge

22:23

when you have a group that is, you know, a

22:29

couple dozen people that spread across the

22:29

United States then obviously.

22:34

most of them are not going to be in

22:34

person.

22:38

Yeah, and I'm like, how are they funded?

22:41

I mean, like, are they just using

22:41

allowance money to buy the brick, you

22:46

know, to throw? Or like, to meet up with friends and

22:47

whatnot?

22:53

That is a really good question and I would

22:53

just say, I mean, I've heard some things

23:01

about parents, some parents enabling it.

23:05

I haven't been able to verify that, but I

23:05

wanna pursue that further.

23:13

Yeah, I mean, it's fascinating to me

23:13

because you have this certain group of

23:20

people that are going to be, number one,

23:20

like I'm thinking about the amount of

23:26

steps I'm imagining my son, and I'm

23:26

imagining the amount of intermediate steps

23:32

that it's going to take, that it would

23:32

take to get him like radicalized in that

23:38

way, and what they would have to convince

23:38

him of, and what

24:23

with him would be like that I wouldn't

24:23

know or there wouldn't be regulation on

24:29

what he's doing or I wouldn't be checking

24:29

in right there's a number of things that

24:33

would start happening. I know you kind of covered this in your

24:34

follow-up article to of your first one on

24:43

raw story about the parents and how the

24:43

parents were reacting to all this and the

24:48

kind of you know

24:50

they were being they were like they were

24:50

they didn't know what to do they kind of

24:58

at a at a at a loss and even seeing like

24:58

most kids once they saw the once they saw

25:06

the legal potential legal consequences right

25:08

kids are getting like interviewed by the

25:12

FBI if I was in high school and I got the

25:12

FBI Taking me out of class to interview me

25:18

that would really scare me quite a bit And

25:18

I probably would want to change what I'm

25:23

doing and I'm just wondering yeah I mean,

25:23

I'm just wondering like so Excuse me this

25:31

2119 right sounds like it's

25:37

You know, it's a small group of people.

25:41

Obviously small groups of people can do

25:41

big damage.

25:45

They can do... terrible damage.

25:47

They have asymmetric information.

25:50

So law enforcement don't know to

25:50

potentially what they're planning and you

25:54

have protection from rights and you know,

25:54

things like that where you can't just go

25:58

in and, you know, get their phone without

25:58

a warrant or go and you know, there it

26:03

makes it more difficult for potentially

26:03

law enforcement to predict these things,

26:08

find these things. What is this?

26:10

Like, why is this so interesting to you?

26:13

This group and how does this?

26:16

How does this, what connection does it

26:16

have even to the larger issues that are

26:25

like, I mean, again, it's not as if I'm

26:25

saying that their potential violent acts

26:32

are not important.

26:35

to cover or to understand or anything like

26:35

that.

26:39

But how does this connect to the broader

26:39

movement that you're seeing and what's

26:44

really concerning you and driving you to

26:44

look at and investigate this group besides

26:52

the fact that it's just terrible stuff

26:52

they're saying and doing, but what's

26:57

driving this interest in reporting this

26:57

and making sure people know about it?

27:05

Well, yeah, I mean, what drove my interest

27:05

is just that when I started looking at the

27:10

string of vandalism incidents and hate

27:10

crimes back in this spring of the past

27:18

year and then seeing this group's name

27:18

attached to it, so I was interested in

27:22

what appears to be like a coordinated

27:22

criminal enterprise and

27:31

I'm concerned that it's attached to a

27:31

larger movement, the active club movement,

27:38

that is very aggressive and kind of

27:38

growing.

27:45

and their ambition to or their interest in

27:45

these more extreme forms of terroristic

27:52

violence. But as I was reporting it, I mean you were

27:54

before, the earlier part of your question

27:59

you were talking about the internet

27:59

radicalization and as I was reporting it

28:04

that, I mean that suddenly became more

28:04

important to me.

28:10

That's not why I started reporting it.

28:15

But yeah, I mean, in terms of the internet

28:15

radicalization of children, I do think

28:23

it's important to mention that neo-Nazi

28:23

activity is just one subset of internet

28:30

radicalization. There's a

28:34

Really good article that came out the same

28:34

day as mine by Mac Lammerow at Vice News.

28:42

And it's about online self-harm cults that

28:42

recruit children and they, you know, in

28:50

the same way as 219, they radicalize

28:50

children and then the children, when they

28:57

become 16 or 17, then they are

28:57

radicalizing and recruiting other

29:02

children. really vile stuff encouraging children to

29:04

cut themselves and the most vile and

29:13

dehumanizing kinds of activities that you

29:13

can imagine.

29:19

But gosh, my main point is that when I

29:19

talked to Dana Kester, a professor at West

29:25

Virginia University who studied online

29:25

radicalization, she was saying...

29:32

if your child is on the internet then they

29:32

are exposed to white supremacy and any

29:39

other toxic content you can imagine.

29:44

And I mean, this is just, I think, you

29:44

know, this is where it crosses the

29:51

ideological divide.

29:53

It doesn't matter whether we're right or

29:53

left.

29:56

We have to figure out how to...

29:59

deal with this as a society and to protect

29:59

children.

30:03

And there are no clear answers.

30:07

I kind of, you know, I hear you, Josh,

30:07

about limiting children's, you know, one's

30:15

child's access.

30:19

I kind of myself kind of tend to take a

30:19

harm reduction approach and realize that

30:26

children... are going to be online.

30:30

I would be kind of hypocritical myself if

30:30

I said just stay offline because all of my

30:36

research and engagement right here is

30:36

online.

30:43

I think we need to teach children to be

30:43

very wise and judicious in how they engage

30:50

with the content and be critical about

30:50

what they're seeing.

30:56

and not just passive consumers.

31:01

Yeah, so I can imagine writing stories

31:01

about neo-Nazis probably doesn't make you

31:09

really popular amongst that group.

31:12

Because having read some of your articles,

31:12

you're not necessarily advocating that

31:18

neo-Nazis are full of rainbows and

31:18

unicorns.

31:22

So maybe you can talk to us a little bit

31:22

about some of the challenges you've had

31:27

and even you know, some of the attacks that you

31:28

have experienced yourself just reporting

31:34

on this group. Yeah, well I wrote about it sidebar to my

31:36

piece at Raw Story.

31:41

But yeah, basically when I began reporting

31:41

this, investigating and reporting this

31:48

story, and the 219 members became aware

31:48

that I was reporting on them, it was

31:55

pretty intense backlash.

32:00

They kind of trash-talked me on Telegram,

32:00

which I would not be.

32:06

I'm kind of used to, but it escalated to

32:06

harassing phone calls, warning that they

32:12

were watching me and invoking the brick

32:12

there, obviously what was used to attack

32:20

the synagogue in Pensacola.

32:24

And surveillance, they, 2119 members

32:24

ordered a pizza to be delivered at my

32:32

house and then somehow someone knew about the delivery

32:35

and was outside and took my photograph

32:41

while I talked to the delivery person and

32:41

it culminated with six neo-Nazis holding a

32:50

four minute flash rally in front of my

32:50

house a couple, about ten days before the

32:56

publication of the story. And so these are, 2119 is part of a larger

33:04

ecosystem and they kind of called for

33:04

support from these older neo-Nazis who

33:12

have written about them as well.

33:14

So I guess there was motivation of trying

33:14

to prevent me from reporting and also

33:20

retaliating for past reporting that I've

33:20

done on others.

33:26

But I mean, I just, I mean, I'm not going

33:26

to be intimidated and stop.

33:34

reporting on it and if anything this kind

33:34

of validates the importance that they

33:40

would go to such great lengths to try to

33:40

suppress the truth.

33:49

Yeah, I mean, that's got to be unnerving

33:49

to experience that.

33:55

What was that like experiencing that for

33:55

the first time?

34:02

Well, I'm not going to say too much about

34:02

the impact of it.

34:11

Yeah, obviously it's not fun. But.

34:15

Yeah, that makes sense. going to keep. I mean, whatever they want to bring, I

34:20

mean, I was raised to ask the question,

34:29

like, you know, what would you do if the,

34:29

you know, the Nazis come to power and,

34:37

like, how will you respond?

34:39

And, like, the moral question of, like, do

34:39

you remove the train tracks of, you know,

34:46

when they are...

34:50

taking people to concentration camps or do

34:50

you drop flyers from a dorm hall and take

34:57

actions that would result in almost, you

34:57

know, certain severe consequences and this

35:10

just seems pretty straightforward.

35:14

We're reporters. We're reporting on the...

35:18

currents and political trends in our

35:18

society.

35:21

And reporting without fear or favor is a

35:21

fundamental aspect of democracy.

35:28

So I'm not gonna stop reporting on them.

35:32

I know many of my colleagues are also not

35:32

gonna be intimidated by this kind of

35:40

thing. Well, I appreciate your response and, you

35:42

know, definitely support you in that.

35:51

Do you feel like the...

35:54

Oh, go ahead. Were you saying something?

35:58

Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

36:01

I mean, you know... If you're going to make an impact at some

36:03

point, people are not going to be happy

36:08

with you, especially if you're talking

36:08

about something that is important to them

36:15

for whatever reason. And it's pretty amazing that you've been

36:17

able to

36:24

keep this going and so I really, I do

36:24

appreciate that because we need people

36:29

that are bold and are willing to speak

36:29

against the evils that they see in society

36:35

and take a stand.

36:38

Do you feel like the law enforcement,

36:38

maybe not do you feel like, what response

36:46

have they been able to have, not

36:46

necessarily in your particular case, but

36:49

I'm talking about more widely.

36:54

for them to try to regulate this and you

36:54

know to try to

37:05

to try to quell this kind of stuff and

37:05

react to this.

37:08

It's very reactionary, it seems like, but

37:08

maybe there's more proactive ways that law

37:14

enforcement is doing to try to get ahead

37:14

of this kind of stuff.

37:21

What has been your experience? How have you seen the law enforcement

37:23

respond and what challenges do they face

37:28

in this? Yeah, yeah.

37:32

Yeah, I mean, law enforcement is

37:32

definitely active in trying to build cases

37:38

against violent extremists.

37:41

And... Yeah, I mean, they prosecuted members of

37:45

the base, one of the groups that I

37:51

mentioned, that had talked about in

37:51

January 2020, there was a Second Amendment

37:59

rally in Richmond, Virginia, where people,

37:59

thousands of people brought assault rifles

38:06

into the state Capitol. And these neo-Nazi groups had talked about

38:13

bringing guns and shooting at people to

38:13

instigate this kind of accelerationist

38:19

collapse. They were arrested shortly afterwards.

38:24

Law enforcement uses informants to

38:24

infiltrate these groups and the neo-Nazis

38:35

know it and there is some degree of

38:35

paranoia.

38:40

And I... you know, I guess they have to, to get the

38:43

evidence to build the cases.

38:48

You do worry that the informants might

38:48

kind of push things further than it needs

38:55

to go to try to make the case.

39:00

They're incentivized to get people to do

39:00

something criminal so that they can make a

39:06

case. I don't know, it's tricky.

39:11

But certainly... aware.

39:15

I mean that sounds like so difficult and

39:15

stressful to try to figure out.

39:20

Yeah, totally. And it's like it reminds me of, I'm not

39:21

sure how many of our listeners are

39:28

familiar with like the old show 21 Jump

39:28

Street.

39:31

where a bunch of these high school kids

39:31

are secretly cops and trying to solve

39:38

crimes. In my mind, when you're like, yeah, they

39:40

try to get informants, I'm like, who are

39:43

they getting? Are they going to the class valedictorian

39:44

or whatever and be like, hey, we got a job

39:50

for you. We need you to infiltrate this neo-Nazi

39:51

group, which, I don't know, would probably

39:57

be pretty cool and fun maybe. I don't know.

39:59

But. You know, I'm curiously...

40:02

century generation myself.

40:06

But, I got in. least on the three people on this call.

40:12

So like, what are the schools doing?

40:15

I mean, since this is a population that's

40:15

primarily young, you know, kids, I'd

40:21

imagine the schools are being informed,

40:21

maybe?

40:25

Like, hey, there's this like, radicalized

40:25

group that's sort of spreading in our

40:29

area. Like, are the schools involved kind of

40:30

with any of this?

40:35

Yeah, three of the members, three or maybe

40:35

four, have said that they got kicked out

40:42

of school. Not when my story came out, long before my

40:44

story came out.

40:48

Their activities came to light locally,

40:48

and they were forced to leave school.

40:58

And I think that's understandable, because

40:58

they present a threat to.

41:03

other students, particularly black and

41:03

Jewish and LGBTQ students.

41:12

But, you know, I don't know, broadly

41:12

speaking, I don't know if your average

41:17

principal, middle school principal, or

41:17

high school principal is really thinking

41:22

about this that much. Yeah, I mean, to that end, what do you

41:27

hope that this reporting does?

41:34

I mean, how do you hope it impacts?

41:40

Who do you hope will read it? And what kind of actions do you feel like

41:42

you would hope that this would spark and

41:49

inspire? from your perspective what's most

41:52

important that people do with this

41:56

information besides just be freaked out.

42:00

Yeah, I hope it doesn't freak people out.

42:03

That always worries me that people will be

42:03

shocked and then just shut down.

42:09

But one audience I really, I'm very

42:09

critical as a journalist and as a person

42:15

of law enforcement, but I do appreciate

42:15

people who work in law enforcement.

42:23

And I guess that's one audience that I

42:23

hope to reach.

42:26

And I hope that they will kind of

42:29

understand the contours and I think mainly

42:29

for law enforcement I want them to

42:35

understand that this is not like one or

42:35

two bad actors.

42:40

It is part of a collective cohesive

42:40

movement and it has to be tackled as a

42:48

sometimes you have to you know apply look

42:48

at it as a conspiracy to violate civil

42:53

rights and I wish there was more

42:53

prosecutions along those lines.

43:00

Broadly speaking, I just want all of

43:00

society to be aware of what is unfolding

43:09

and to respond as in whatever role they

43:09

find to be appropriate.

43:19

Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking about the law

43:19

enforcement and so like this side of it,

43:26

you're hoping that they will take it and

43:26

assimilate the information, understand it,

43:33

become aware because why most law

43:33

enforcement's they're unaware of this.

43:38

They don't see it as a big issue.

43:41

Like what what's the motivation again,

43:41

besides like understanding that what

43:46

they're doing is wrong, right? And bad.

43:49

And it's not, I mean, it's this racism is

43:49

evil and it's hurting them as well, like

43:58

their own internal heart, I believe,

43:58

right?

44:01

It's damaging their soul as a pastor, as

44:01

greatly.

44:08

And my prayer and hope would be that they

44:08

would come to some kind of repentance and

44:13

to turn around from this.

44:15

But from the law enforcement standpoint,

44:15

that's more spiritual standpoint, from the

44:21

law enforcement standpoint, the idea is

44:21

like, what do you see as the issue that is

44:30

occurring that you hope this will spark in

44:30

the law enforcement ignorance, will for

44:39

ignorance, right? Just kind of like...

44:43

Well. brushing it under the table, what do you

44:44

think?

44:47

Yeah, I think there's a tendency with law

44:47

enforcement to see this as like a

44:52

localized .. this, I hate to call it vandalism, that

44:56

it's an attack on people.

45:03

But you might see it as like a localized

45:03

issue, law enforcement might see it as a

45:08

localized issue. some crazy teenagers or something like

45:09

that.

45:11

They're just being silly and we just

45:11

gotta, you know, whatever, just deal with

45:15

it and move on. And also to think, you know, these are

45:17

just teenagers who are just did something

45:23

stupid as teenagers do, but if you look at

45:23

the fact that they've been organizing,

45:29

this group has been organizing for two to

45:29

three years on the internet, I think it's

45:35

important to look at the people who are

45:35

organizing the activity and coordinating

45:43

it online. as opposed to just those who commit the

45:44

acts of vandalism or racial and ethnic

45:53

intimidation. So, Jordan, I guess my last question for

45:55

you is, what's next for your

46:01

investigation? I mean, like, what do you need, who do you

46:03

need to talk to, to really kind of gain a

46:08

more comprehensive picture of, you know,

46:08

where this group is going next, and, you

46:14

know, what would be important for the

46:14

public to really take away from your

46:20

reporting? Well, that's a good question.

46:28

I would say just looking forward, look at

46:28

how groups, neo-Nazi teenage groups that

46:40

are inclined towards terrorism, look at

46:40

the hot button issues that they're going

46:45

to exploit.

46:52

the presidential election, the ongoing war

46:52

in Israel and Gaza, is something that

47:01

neo-Nazi groups like this are going to

47:01

play both sides and try to pit people

47:06

against each other. Ongoing...

47:12

look for them to kind of opportunistically

47:12

latch on to various hot-button issues that

47:19

make people passionate and divide people

47:19

and to exploit those to erode trust.

47:26

And also, you know, white supremacist

47:26

groups going back decades and decades are

47:31

very good at rebranding.

47:33

Now that there's a light being shown on

47:33

twenty one nineteen they may change their

47:39

name or they may break into two groups or re-merge

47:40

with other groups and so it's very it's

47:46

very fluid but uh...

47:50

yeah look at the uh... kind of the occurrence of the movement and

47:52

not the particular groups or players

47:57

necessarily That's it.

48:01

That's good. So I guess last question is how can people

48:02

follow you, how stay up to date on your

48:07

reporting or if they've got like you know

48:07

a hot tip or something like that, how can

48:12

folks connect with you? Yeah, the best way to connect with me is

48:15

by email, jordan.com.

48:24

Got it. That's great. And yeah, well, appreciate you coming on.

48:30

We have lots of journalists on the show,

48:30

and I'm always just impressed by just the

48:35

work that you folks do. I mean, putting yourself kind of at harm's

48:37

way. And it's like, I don't know what it's like

48:39

to be a journalist, but based on what I

48:44

hear, see, and read, it looks like a very

48:44

thankless profession.

48:48

Um, so I want to at least, um, be one that

48:48

does thank you for, for the work that you

48:53

do, because it's not easy.

48:59

And yeah, thank you.

49:01

And, uh, and to our faithful politics

49:01

listeners and watchers, we'll see you next

49:06

time. Remember, keep your conversations not

49:06

right, not left, but up.

49:09

We'll, uh, see you next week. Take care.