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(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai - Go Unlimited to remove this watermark) Welcome to Heavenly Homeland, a five-part audio

0:23

documentary from the Faithful Politics podcast that looks

0:26

at the impact of Christian nationalism in America.

0:29

I'm your host, Will Wright. You can call us extremists, you can call

0:34

us domestic terrorists. You know who else was called a lot

0:37

of names his whole life?

0:41

Jesus. I'm a Christian and I say it proudly.

0:44

We should be Christian nationalists. The church is supposed to direct the government.

0:49

The government is not supposed to direct the

0:52

church. So much for this myth of separation of

0:55

church and state. When you look at our platform, it's the

0:58

only platform out there that recognizes the Creator,

1:01

that recognizes that we have rights that supersede

1:04

government. We need people all over the country to

1:06

be willing to put on that full armor

1:09

of God, to stand firm against the left's

1:13

schemes. You'll be met with flaming arrows, but the

1:17

shield of faith will stop them. In America, the complex interplay between faith and

1:25

politics has always been a topic of deep

1:27

fascination for me. From the doctrine of discovery, which empowered monarchs

1:32

to claim non-Christian lands, to the powerful,

1:35

biblically-infused oratory of Martin Luther King Jr.

1:39

I just want to do God's will.

1:54

Our nation's history is rich with examples of

1:58

faith-influencing events. Your perspective on whether the interplay of faith

2:03

and politics is a good or bad thing

2:05

might vary widely, shaped by your upbringing, political

2:09

beliefs, and religious traditions.

2:12

This intricate dance between religion and the American

2:15

ethos has profoundly influenced our national narrative.

2:19

The First Amendment, with its promise of religious

2:22

freedom, has nurtured a diverse landscape of beliefs

2:26

and non-beliefs. Yet, it has also sparked controversies, such as

2:32

the Scopes-Monkey trials clash over evolution and

2:35

education. John Scopes, a young teacher of Tennessee, had

2:39

taught, contrary to state law, Darwin's theory of

2:43

evolution. And ongoing debates about religion's place in public

2:48

schools. Number 468, Stephen I.

2:53

Engel et al. petitioners versus William J.

2:56

Vitale Jr. et al. Among these intersections of faith and politics, perhaps

3:01

no topic has stirred more interest across academic

3:04

circles, political arenas, and church congregations than Christian

3:09

nationalism. But what is Christian nationalism?

3:15

This concept that has woven itself so deeply

3:18

into our discussions about politics and religion?

3:21

Why does it matter? This series aims to unpack these questions.

3:25

We'll delve into the many aspects of this

3:27

ideology, guided by insights from some of the

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nation's foremost experts on the subject. Many of whom have been guests on our

3:35

flagship podcast, Faithful Politics.

3:38

Before we dive deeper, let's start with a

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fundamental inquiry that lays the groundwork for our

3:44

entire exploration. What exactly is Christian nationalism?

3:49

Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah, it's good to start with definitions.

3:52

Meet Brian Kaler, an acclaimed author and journalist,

3:56

currently leading as president and editor-in-chief

3:59

at Word & Way. Brian's work delves deeply into the intersection of

4:03

faith and politics, a theme he explores thoroughly

4:05

in his podcast, Dangerous Dogma.

4:08

I think the easiest way to think about Christian nationalism is this is an ideology that

4:13

confuses and conflates our Christian faith and our

4:18

national identity. And that would be impossible in any country,

4:22

but we'll stay focused on the context of the United States.

4:25

One, because that's obviously where we are. And two, I think it's more significant to

4:29

have – more significant of a problem when you're dealing with a large empire-type power.

4:35

I mean, so like if you're a Christian

4:37

in Moldova or something, it's – Christian nationalism

4:40

isn't as dangerous, I think, because there's not

4:42

as much of a geopolitical threat then that

4:45

can infect the faith. And so it's this idea that to be

4:48

a real American, you must be a Christian,

4:52

and the flip of that, to be a

4:55

good Christian, you also have to be a good American.

4:58

And I think that that is a very dangerous ideology, both for our democracy, but it's

5:04

also – and I'm more concerned even on this side for our faith.

5:07

And it is something that I have written about for years.

5:10

I mean, I know a lot of people have talked about Christian nationalism since January 6th,

5:13

but it's a real thing that has existed

5:15

before that. And I and many others were naming it

5:19

as Christian nationalism before January 6th.

5:22

And I think that's important because some people will say, oh, y'all are just making

5:24

this up. This is just a way to attack Trump

5:27

in January 6th and all that kind of stuff. But Christian nationalism was a real thing that

5:31

we were talking about before that. Why is it so crucial to grasp the

5:39

significance of this intersection? Well, the answer lies in compelling statistics.

5:44

A significant study by the Public Religion Research

5:47

Institute, or PRRI for short, in collaboration with

5:51

the Brookings Institute, aimed to unravel the impact

5:54

of Christian nationalism on American democracy and culture.

5:58

The findings were as eye-opening as they

6:00

were expected. Here to shed light on these findings is

6:03

Robbie Jones, the president and founder of PRRI.

6:09

Yeah, well, you know, one of the first things we have to do is you have

6:12

to get the definition of it.

6:14

I mean, so this is a public opinion

6:17

survey that we conducted, again, with the Brookings

6:21

Institution. And so it's a fairly large survey.

6:26

And what we did is we basically had about a dozen questions that measured various kinds

6:31

of sentiments like that. At the end of the day, we settled

6:33

on five questions that really hang together, or

6:37

five statements that really hang together.

6:40

And by hanging together, I mean like statistically we can measure that they're highly correlated with

6:44

one another. So if you answer one way on one of these questions, you're very likely to answer

6:48

a similar way on one of the other ones.

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So out of the dozen or so that we tested, these five tend to kind of

6:53

coalesce into kind of one group.

6:55

And so we use these as a kind of amalgamation or joint measure of Christian nationalism.

7:03

I'll just read you the statements real quickly so you get a sense of it.

7:06

So these are all agree, disagree questions from

7:10

the survey. So questions like God has called Christians to

7:14

exercise dominion over all areas of American society.

7:18

The U.S. government should declare America a

7:20

Christian nation. Being Christian is an important part of being

7:23

truly American. U.S. laws should be based on Christian

7:26

values. If the U.S. moves away from our

7:29

Christian foundations, we will not have a country

7:31

anymore. So it's those five questions that we made

7:36

a composite measure. And then we looked at people who either

7:39

strongly agreed with those or strongly disagreed and

7:42

people who were in the middle as well. And the top line finding that we found

7:46

is that we found about three in ten

7:49

Americans who are either what we call Christian

7:51

nationalism adherents or Christian nationalism sympathizers.

7:55

So an adherent is one who strongly agreed

7:58

with all of those questions. About 10 percent of the country fell into

8:02

that category that strongly agreed with all of

8:04

them. But another 19 percent of the country fell

8:09

into the category of somewhat agreeing with those

8:13

statements. So taken together, 10 plus 19, that's 29

8:16

percent. About three in ten Americans who are either

8:19

adherents or sympathizers. And so then we looked at the other

8:22

side as well. On the far side, 29 percent of the

8:26

country strongly disagreed with all those statements.

8:29

We call those rejecters. And then another 39 percent somewhat disagreed.

8:34

We called them skeptics. So overall, about three in ten who lean

8:38

that direction and about two thirds who lean

8:42

kind of the other direction away from affirming

8:47

Christian nationalism. Now the idea that America was founded as

9:25

a Christian nation isn't a new concept.

9:28

It has origins in various historical interpretations.

9:32

Proponents argue that the nation's founding fathers intended

9:36

for the United States to be a Christian

9:38

nation with its institutions and legal frameworks built

9:42

upon Christian principles. They often cite references to God and biblical

9:47

phrases in historical documents like the Declaration of

9:51

Independence and the writings of key figures such

9:54

as George Washington and Thomas Jefferson to support

9:57

their claims. However, it's crucial to recognize that the United

10:00

States was not officially established as a Christian

10:03

nation in terms of its government structure.

10:07

Even if this were the case, the Constitution

10:09

clearly prohibits the government from endorsing any specific

10:13

religion and guarantees religious freedom for all citizens.

10:17

We'll delve deeper into this in the next

10:19

episode. The founding fathers, in fact, aimed to create

10:23

a secular government that would safeguard religious freedom

10:26

and prevent religious persecution.

10:29

To offer more insight on this topic, we

10:32

have Kay Cartay, an associate professor of history

10:35

at Southern Methodist University who specializes in early

10:39

American and Atlantic history.

10:42

She's also the author of Religion and the

10:45

American Revolution and Imperial History.

10:47

Most of the people who were involved in

10:50

framing the Constitution or in the break from

10:53

Britain came from a background of a Protestant

10:56

empire. So the British Empire was explicitly a Protestant

10:59

empire. And when they went to found the United

11:02

States, which happens, of course, in several stages,

11:05

most of them associated organized religion with social

11:10

stability. So the sense that the state would be

11:16

stabilized by people who shared a religious background

11:23

was something that they'd all been raised with. But then when it comes to actually do

11:28

it, they kind of they realized that in

11:30

the United States, religion is really divisive.

11:34

And the different parts of the of the

11:37

United States of the early United States have very different traditions.

11:40

They're actively disagreeing with each other on a

11:42

lot of things. They don't want any kind of stabilizing church.

11:45

And in some ways, they associated the British

11:48

establishment with kind of corruption.

11:50

Right. With these fat bishops who would ride around

11:53

London and never go to their bishoprics and all that.

11:55

This kind of stereotype that wasn't necessarily true,

11:58

but that was the stereotype. And so they wanted to kind of many

12:00

of them wanted to move away from the

12:03

idea of a single state church. But that left a hole of how are

12:08

you going to accomplish the goals of state stability without an institution to do it?

12:14

So I think when we see Christianity in the founding or we see Protestantism in the

12:17

founding, we see it with this kind of assumption that institutional religion will do that.

12:24

And over time, after when when there's no

12:26

established church, other other things have to come

12:29

in and sort of fill that role, some of which is just rhetoric.

12:31

Right. You just have to be religious and that

12:34

won't give you a good citizen. And there's no no guaranteeing that that will

12:38

happen. It's just kind of language and then other

12:41

kinds of, you know, voluntary associations and things like that come into the perception of America

12:52

as a Christian nation. This idea has been employed by various factions

13:06

and individuals aiming to assert their version of

13:10

Christianity as the primary religious and cultural force

13:15

in the nation. Here's Kristin Kobus-Dumé, historian and author of

13:20

the book Jesus and John Wayne, to talk

13:22

about the Christian influence we saw in the

13:24

mid-1900s. Yeah, so I'm a historian, so I'm going

13:28

to bring you back a few decades. And what I realized is this Cold War

13:33

era was just really critical. And what we see happening in the late

13:36

40s, early 50s is evangelicals already in the

13:40

early 40s say, you know, we want to reassert ourselves in terms of influencing American culture.

13:45

They felt somewhat marginalized after the fundamentalist modernist

13:48

controversies, and they came together in the National

13:51

Association of Evangelicals and had a plan.

13:53

They wanted to reassert their influence through Christian

13:56

publishing, through Christian magazines, through radio.

13:58

And they felt that they had a special

14:02

role to play. And particularly by the end of the 40s,

14:06

in light of the Cold War, they knew

14:09

that they had a role to play to protect Christian America, because they perceived themselves to

14:14

be the most faithful Christians. And they saw that Christian America was under

14:18

threat and communists were anti-God, they were

14:22

anti-family, and they were anti-American.

14:25

So all the things that evangelicals held dear.

14:28

And so it was the role of evangelicals

14:32

to kind of shore things up. And the threat was a military one.

14:36

And so you needed a strong military defense and you needed strong men to defend faith,

14:41

family and nation. Now, the thing is, at that time, it

14:43

wasn't that unique. Evangelicals were aligned with many other Americans, especially

14:48

white middle class Americans. This was Cold War consensus.

14:51

This was the post-war baby boom.

14:53

Traditional family values were in.

14:55

And all that changed in the 1960s.

14:59

In the 1960s, you have the civil rights

15:02

movement, incredibly disruptive, particularly to Southern white evangelicals.

15:06

You have the feminist movement starting up, challenging

15:09

traditional gender roles.

15:12

And you have the Vietnam War and the

15:15

anti-war movement challenging American goodness and greatness.

15:18

And all of these things lead many Americans

15:22

to question these kind of traditional values.

15:25

And that's when evangelicals really double down on

15:28

all of these things. And they understand how they're connected.

15:31

You need strong men. Gender difference becomes hugely important during this time.

15:36

Like femininity and masculinity are opposites.

15:39

Men and women are different in every cell of their bodies.

15:42

And it's up to men to be strong,

15:44

to be ruthless, to be aggressive. And God made them that way, filled them

15:49

with testosterone so that they can defend faith,

15:51

family, and nation. But the feminists are coming after them and

15:54

the anti-war activists. And, you know, we can talk race, too.

15:57

And what the solution to kind of all

15:59

of these kind of intrusions and disruptions to

16:05

the status quo is the assertion of white

16:07

patriarchal authority. And that really moves to the center of

16:11

conservative evangelical identity. And it is an oppositional identity by the

16:16

1970s, right? The sense of we are the faithful remnant

16:19

here. Too many other Americans are abandoning these values.

16:22

And we have this special role to play to protect and defend these core values.

16:28

And by asserting and defending white patriarchal authority,

16:33

that's how it's done. Supporters of Christian nationalism often use the idea

16:38

of America's Christian heritage to advocate for policies

16:42

that align with their religious beliefs. This includes efforts to introduce prayer in public

16:48

schools, display religious symbols in public spaces, or

16:53

create laws based on specific religious moral values.

16:57

It's important to point out, though, that the

17:00

belief that America was founded as a Christian

17:02

nation isn't something everyone agrees on.

17:05

Historians, legal experts, and many politicians often challenge

17:10

this view. However, it's interesting to note that a lot

17:13

of religious leaders, especially those from the religious

17:16

right, really buy into this idea.

17:19

They often preach about it to their congregations,

17:22

reinforcing the notion of America's Christian roots.

17:25

A great example of this is a sermon

17:28

by Southern Baptist pastor Robert Jeffress, which I

17:32

think really brings this point home. You know, some messages bear repeating, especially in

17:38

the times in which we live. We are living in historic times right now.

17:44

And over the last several weeks, we've seen

17:46

the Supreme Court of the United States issue

17:49

some monumental decisions, not only affecting abortion and

17:54

the sanctity of life, but in the last

17:57

two weeks, there have been two specific rulings

18:00

regarding religious liberty.

18:03

And this is my carnal side speaking.

18:06

I've loved seeing the liberals' heads exploding, literally,

18:11

over these rulings, just going crazy.

18:15

And you hear things like, oh, the Supreme

18:18

Court, they're taking us backwards, they're taking us

18:21

backwards. Well, in a sense, they're right.

18:24

They are taking us back to our Founding

18:26

Fathers' original intentions, especially when it comes to

18:31

the relationship between faith and public life.

18:35

And that's why today we're going to revisit

18:38

a truth that I don't think can be taught often enough.

18:41

In fact, there's a controversy right now in

18:43

Florida about the attempt to teach this true

18:46

version of American history about the Founders' relationship

18:50

to faith in our country.

18:53

You know, if you listen long enough to

18:55

this pagan, atheist group like the Freedom from

18:58

Religion Foundation, the Americans for Separation of Church

19:02

and State, if you listen to them long

19:04

enough, you will become convinced that the bedrock

19:08

principle for the founding of our nation was

19:11

this belief that government should be neutral.

19:15

Translate that, hostile to all things religious, especially

19:19

Christian religions. They tell us that this nation was founded

19:24

by, oh, maybe a few Christians, but also

19:27

a lot of deists, a lot of atheists,

19:29

and they were all secularists who wanted to

19:33

found this nation apart from any Christian influence

19:37

whatsoever. In fact, we're told the Founders wanted to

19:41

build this unscalable wall that would keep any

19:45

spiritual influence from seeping out of the church

19:49

into the public life. Well, that version of American history belongs right

19:53

up there with the story of George Washington

19:55

and the cherry tree. It is a complete myth.

20:00

As we're going to discover today, America was

20:04

founded primarily by Christians, who believed that the

20:08

future success of our nation depended upon our

20:11

fidelity to God and His Word.

20:14

And though it's politically incorrect to say it,

20:18

we can say with great historical evidence to

20:21

support it, that America was founded as a

20:25

Christian nation. And we're never going to stop apologizing for

20:30

saying such a thing. Despite the substantial impact of religion, especially Christianity,

20:37

and molding American society and its historical narrative,

20:40

the Founding Fathers consciously set up a secular

20:43

government. This system facilitates the harmonious existence of varied

20:48

religious beliefs and safeguards individual liberties in matters

20:52

of religion. Let's hear from Professor Cartier once more.

20:56

I think the people who founded the country,

20:58

who are, you know, elite white men, right? Those people were invested in social stability that

21:03

they saw as having in the past come

21:06

from Protestantism. But they were very concerned that they did

21:14

not think an established church would be effective in the United States.

21:18

They eliminated tests for public office.

21:20

That was a little bit controversial. There were people who said in the ratification

21:24

process, people who said, what if a Catholic

21:26

is elected president? Clearly, that will be the downfall of the

21:30

United States. But the Constitution explicitly eliminates tests on for

21:36

religious tests for public office. Right. So they have this background, but they chose

21:42

not to use it. They chose to leave religion out and they

21:46

kind of developed the idea that religion would

21:48

be something private. That, you know, the phrase that Thomas Jefferson

21:54

uses and Madison uses this kind of language,

21:57

too, is, is that religion is something between a person and their God.

22:00

Of course, he uses gender language, but that it's a it's a private spiritual thing.

22:03

Right. It's a it's a thing of thoughts or a thing of feeling, not a thing of

22:07

institutions. So when you transition religion into being something

22:11

that's just kind of private, you can protect

22:14

it like we do in the First Amendment. But without saying that the citizenry must be

22:22

Protestant or Christian or anything else or even

22:24

religious. Right. Or saying that the leaders of the government

22:27

need to be religious. So I wouldn't say that the institutions of

23:11

government are founded as a Christian, as for

23:14

a Christian or a Protestant nation. But I would say that the people who

23:17

did that founding were nervous about the institutional

23:21

transition they were doing. For a lot of the folks who support

23:28

or consider themselves Christian nationalists, the belief that

23:31

America was founded as a Christian nation is

23:33

a pretty huge deal. It influences everything from how they vote to

23:38

the politicians they support and even how far

23:41

they'll go to defend their Christian values.

23:44

I mean, the very thought of challenging the notion about America's purported Christian roots would be

23:51

tantamount to blasphemy and for some even unpatriotic.

23:56

Remember that PRRI survey Robbie Jones talked about

23:59

earlier? It showed that 77% of the hardcore

24:02

believers in Christian nationalism think Christianity or being

24:07

Christian is key to being truly American.

24:11

A whopping 84% believe that if the

24:13

U.S. strays from its Christian roots, we're

24:16

basically not going to have a country anymore. And 81% think that U.S. laws

24:21

should be based on Christian values.

24:24

Now keep in mind, these numbers don't reflect

24:28

all Christians, just the ones really into this

24:30

movement. So why is there such a big difference

24:33

in opinion, even among other Christians? Well, a lot of it comes down to

24:38

how people interpret the Bible, which is what

24:42

biblical hermeneutics is all about. It's the study of how to understand the

24:46

Bible's text, their context, and what it actually

24:50

all means. To get a better grip on how biblical

24:53

hermeneutics plays into Christian nationalism, we're bringing in

24:57

Dr. Trimper Longman III. He's an emeritus professor of biblical studies and

25:02

a distinguished scholar of biblical studies at Westmont

25:04

College. He's a big name in the Bible world.

25:07

He's one of the lead translators of the New Living Translation and has helped out with

25:12

other popular translations like the Message, the New

25:15

Century Version, and the Holman Standard Bible.

25:18

Let's hear what he has to say. The most important point I would make is

25:25

that people who are Christian nationalists, they are

25:30

acting on a fundamental hermeneutical error, which is

25:35

the difference between the Old Testament and the

25:38

New Testament, right? So in the Old Testament, there is a

25:41

godly nation chosen by God, namely Israel.

25:45

But in the New Testament, the people of

25:48

God are not a nation. It is a church drawn from many different

25:53

nations and ethnicities.

25:55

So the idea of a Christian nation is

26:00

an oxymoron in a New Testament time period.

26:05

I recently read a book—I forget the title

26:08

of it. It was basically on how the Founding Fathers

26:11

used the Bible in their thinking.

26:15

And my reaction after reading it is they

26:18

were really bad Bible readers. Christian nationalism, you know, is the idea that

26:24

this country was founded as a Christian nation.

26:27

And there are different shades of that Bible.

26:31

But the most pernicious type of Christian nationalism

26:35

is the one that would argue, say, that

26:40

the law of the United States ought to

26:43

reflect the law of the Bible.

26:49

The intersection of biblical hermeneutics with Christian nationalism

26:53

becomes apparent when adherents of Christian nationalism selectively

26:57

construe biblical verses to back nationalistic ideologies or

27:02

political objectives. They may perceive their nation as chosen or

27:08

blessed by God and aspire to instate policies

27:11

and practices that align with their interpretation of

27:14

biblical tenets. Christian nationalism can also employ hermeneutics to validate

27:21

political actions, thereby shaping their understanding of their

27:26

duties as Christians within the political domain.

27:32

Nevertheless, not all Christians interpret the Bible in

27:35

this manner, and interpretations differ among traditions and

27:38

denominations. For instance, some interpretations of the Bible prevent

27:43

women from preaching, while others place strict guidelines

27:47

on what a person should wear. And, well, some interpretations allow whatever this is.

28:19

I said we better get loud! We better get bold!

28:23

We ain't got time to stop! We ain't got time to back up!

28:27

You waiting on me? You're going the wrong way!

28:32

I'm moving forward for the gospel!

28:35

I ain't bowing down and kissing the ring!

28:39

There's only one set of feet I'll bow

28:42

at, and it's Jesus' feet. Let this mind be in you, which was

28:48

also in Christ Jesus, who being the form

28:51

of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but made himself of no

28:54

reputation and took upon him the form of a servant who was made in the likeness

28:58

of me. So this question, right, of demonic possession and

29:07

how that fits with partisan political identity coming

29:11

from a diagnosis of somebody like this, the

29:14

pastor Greg Locke, is super interesting historically, and

29:17

I talk about some of this in the

29:20

chapter of my book on evangelical politics, and

29:24

specifically on progressive evangelical identity.

29:27

This is Isaac Sharpe, visiting assistant professor of

29:31

theological studies and author of the book, The

29:33

Other Evangelicals, a story of liberal, black, progressive,

29:38

feminist, and gay Christians and the movement that

29:41

pushed them out. So one of the things that happens in

29:43

the course of the 20th century, I end

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up arguing, is that evangelical identity, what it

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means to be evangelical, gets really closely aligned

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and tied to politics and to a particular

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kind of politics and a particular partisan politics,

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such that by the dawn of the 21st

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century, to be evangelical in common association is

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to be Republican Christian, right?

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Like this is part of what happens. Such that somebody like Greg Locke making this

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suggestion that somebody who is a Democrat is

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demon possessed is actually building on a history

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of that kind of rhetoric from certain kinds

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of political leaders. So for instance, in that chapter, the evangelical

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politics chapter, one of the ways that I recount the story of how that happened, how

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this evangelical identity gets so tied to partisan

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politics, is the longer arc of the story

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begins with the rise of a progressive kind

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of evangelical politics and the story that I

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recount in that chapter is how those folks

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got absolutely sidelined and marginalized by the rise

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of evangelicalism.