0:22

Hey, welcome back, Faithful Politics

0:22

listeners and viewers.

0:24

If you're watching us on our YouTube

0:24

channel, I am your political host, Will

0:27

Wright, and I'm joined by your faithful

0:27

host and my friend, Pastor Josh Bertram.

0:32

How's it going, Josh? Doing well, thanks Will.

0:35

Hey, and this week, our guest who needs no

0:35

introduction unless you're listening to it

0:39

and you can't see is Charlie Sykes.

0:43

He is a conservative MSNBC contributor.

0:46

He's also the author of several books to

0:46

include How the Right Lost its Mind.

0:50

Charlie Sykes was also the founder of the

0:50

bulwark, of which he is no longer a part

0:55

of. And as he tweeted or sheeded, I'm not

0:55

really quite sure what the right term is,

0:59

he felt it was a good time to get off the

0:59

daily hamster wheel of crazy.

1:03

So welcome to the show, Charlie. Hey, it is my pleasure.

1:06

Thank you for the invitation. You're welcome.

1:09

So, you know, I want to, I want to kind of

1:09

get right into sort of like, um, kind of

1:12

the hard hitting, uh, topics that all

1:12

America cares about.

1:16

And, um, at the time that we're recording

1:16

this, um, it is Holy week.

1:21

Um, so I need to ask you, have you bought

1:21

your $60 Trump Bible?

1:26

No, and I'm unlikely to. Actually, I have my own.

1:30

But this is, again, one of these moments

1:30

that feels like it's beyond a parody, that

1:37

you have somebody who has moved from

1:37

peddling Trump steaks and Trump vodka and

1:44

Trump sneakers to now actually

1:44

commodifying the Bible during Holy Week.

1:50

Yeah. It's one of those moments where you have

1:53

to stand, I assume we're gonna get more in

1:58

depth into this, but you step back and you

1:58

go, okay, you know, how do people look at

2:03

this figure and think that here we have a

2:03

champion of Christian values?

2:09

Here is God's anointed one.

2:12

I find that as difficult to deal with as I

2:12

did when it first became an issue back in

2:17

2016. Well, you know, Charlie, Isaiah 45 talked

2:19

about Cyrus and he was the 45th president.

2:25

So I think that's all the evidence you

2:25

need.

2:28

That's all the evidence you need. for some people apparently it is, you

2:30

know, but I think they've stretched the

2:35

Cyrus analogies and the King David

2:35

analogies really beyond the breaking point

2:40

at this point. You know, as he's hawking these Bibles for

2:42

60 bucks because you know those legal fees

2:49

don't pay themselves. So there's irony upon irony.

2:53

They don't, which it's weird because on

2:53

the website of the individual selling it,

2:58

it's like, yeah, the proceeds won't go to

2:58

Trump's campaign, but there's no mention

3:04

about his legal funds. And I don't know too many billionaires

3:06

that are hawking Bibles to raise money for

3:13

whatever. Maybe he's just way more altruistic than

3:14

we give him credit for.

3:19

Yeah, that seems unlikely.

3:21

Actually, I was speculating the other day

3:21

that he's a billionaire and he wants

3:25

America to turn back to God and pray more.

3:28

He could be giving out Bibles. He could be donating them as opposed to

3:32

hawking them.

3:35

But I think the one thing that is, again,

3:35

which irony do you wanna deal with?

3:40

The fact that he may use the sales of the

3:40

Bibles to pay his legal fees for a

3:45

criminal trial involving

3:49

the fact that he had sex with a porn star

3:49

and then had to pay her hush money.

3:52

I mean, that's ironic in and of itself. The other irony, of course, is that this

3:54

is a guy who I think probably has never

4:00

actually read the Bible. And you'll notice that when he talks about

4:04

prayer and faith, he never actually talks

4:09

about what's in it or the content of it.

4:14

Here's somebody who, if he was confronted

4:14

with, for example, the Sermon on the

4:19

Mount, would go more left-wing propaganda.

4:23

And I think that's one of the things,

4:23

because I'm starting to get ahead of

4:27

myself here, but I've been talking about

4:27

this for so...

4:31

You know... You know, back in 2015, do you guys

4:32

remember when he was, I had to look this

4:36

up again, he was at the Family Leadership

4:36

Summit in Iowa.

4:40

And this was a serious organization with a

4:40

lot of evangelicals in the room.

4:44

And he was asked whether you have ever

4:44

asked God for forgiveness.

4:48

And he basically said, no, I never have.

4:51

I've never asked God for forgiveness. And then he referred to communion as his

4:53

little wine and little cracker.

4:58

And at that moment, you go, okay, this guy

4:58

has no idea, but his willingness to sort

5:08

of exploit religious identity has become

5:08

just so cynical over time, but I think

5:14

we're beyond any expectation that this is

5:14

a breaking point.

5:19

Yeah, absolutely. You know, and it's almost like everything

5:20

you're saying is a perfect plug for our

5:25

fourth episode that we've had in our

5:25

Heavenly Homeland series, where we've

5:29

looked at sort of the connection to Trump

5:29

and the evangelical community.

5:32

And I want to play you just one quote from

5:32

Trump that he made back in 2015 to CBN

5:39

about one of his other favorite Bible quotes. So here it is.

6:02

Mm-hmm. Gotta bend. So, uh, so bend to envy.

6:19

I don't know if you guys have that in your

6:19

Bible.

6:21

Um, yeah.

6:24

Do you have that verse in yours, Charlie?

6:27

I'm going to defer to your knowledge of

6:27

this, but this was new to me.

6:32

Okay, yeah, breaking news. Yeah, I believe what I've been calling the

6:34

Trump Bible is the NLT, the New Living

6:39

Trump version, and where Jesus' words are

6:39

all in orange, so that way they're easily

6:46

identifiable.

6:49

So yeah, that's something.

6:51

that interview that he gave with Bloomberg

6:51

where they were essentially asking him,

6:55

would you name your favorite Bible verse?

6:58

And he repeatedly refused to do it, said

6:58

it's very, very personal.

7:02

And they said, well, you know, are you

7:02

more Old Testament or New Testament?

7:05

And he said, well, sort of evil. And you could just tell he was like, it's

7:07

like watching a junior high kid who's

7:11

giving a book report about a book they've

7:11

never read before.

7:14

And I think that that's again and again.

7:20

Hawking the Bible, the King James Version

7:20

by the way, King James Version of the

7:25

Bible, apparently put together by the

7:25

famous theologian, Lee Greenwood.

7:33

And it's sort of reminded about just how

7:33

deeply cynical this man is about religion,

7:43

and also then how credulous so many of his

7:43

supporters have been, and including the

7:50

conservative evangelicals, obviously.

7:53

You know, I just looked it up and the

7:53

Proverbs does say, don't envy the wicked.

7:57

That's one thing it says. Well, that seems a little bit on the nose,

8:00

doesn't it?

8:03

a little bit. Yeah. So, you know, kind of in other news, you

8:05

work for a news network who just recently

8:12

terminated an employee who I did the math.

8:16

Rana Ramney-McDonald, let's see, lasted

8:16

about half a Scaramucci, about four days.

8:25

Yeah. Yeah, I'm not even a full scare Mujin.

8:27

So What do you think about that?

8:30

I mean like, you know our Should should

8:30

people on news networks be I don't know

8:37

canceled for the lack of a better word

8:37

Because of something they've said and or

8:42

did like in the past

8:44

Well, okay, let's talk about this. It's a little bit awkward, of course,

8:46

because I am an MSNBC contributor.

8:50

I'm not paid nearly as much as they were

8:50

gonna pay when I'm not paid, by the way.

8:55

Ha ha So it was interesting what the reaction

8:56

was, I think, among the anchors.

9:40

And again, this was not because she was

9:40

not fired or there was not the objections

9:46

were not the fact that she was a

9:46

Republican or that she was a conservative.

9:49

This was not a right left Democrat

9:49

Republican issue.

9:52

It was the fact that Ronna McDaniel had

9:52

been a co-conspirator in the attempt to

9:57

lie about the election and overturn the

9:57

election, that she had engaged in the big

10:01

lie and that she had not only lied about

10:01

the election, but that she continued to

10:05

lie election when she appeared on Meet the

10:06

Press.

10:08

So the question is, you know, what does it

10:08

mean for a news outlet like NBC to

10:15

essentially put this, well not

10:15

essentially, to put this person on the

10:19

payroll and then essentially say this is a

10:19

credible source of information?

10:23

I have no problem with them interviewing

10:23

her or interviewing anybody else in the

10:28

Trump orbit. It's when you say you are now part of our

10:29

team.

10:32

What was the value added? What did

10:36

bring to NBC News they didn't have before?

10:39

Why did they have to pay her to be a

10:39

contributor?

10:42

And I think that was the dividing line. So it's not about having Republican voices

10:44

or conservative voices on the air, which I

10:47

think they should have. I mean, I think they actually should have

10:48

them.

10:51

But the problem is, you know, are there

10:51

any consequences for attempting to

10:55

overturn the election, for engaging in

10:55

that kind of, you know, deep attack on

11:01

democracy? Because if there is not a consequence for

11:01

that, then in fact,

11:05

you're essentially saying that this is

11:05

within the normal parameters of American

11:11

politics. And I think this is the challenge for all

11:11

of us.

11:13

This is the challenge for the culture, for

11:13

the median politics, that we treat the

11:19

abnormal as normal. that you what Donald Trump tried to do is

11:21

so outside the norms of American politics.

11:28

And that's putting it mildly.

11:30

You know, the serial deceptions, the

11:30

attempt to undermine the democracy.

11:34

Is that just one more? data point in our politics, or is it like,

11:36

wait, there are red lights here.

11:42

We have to understand that this is not

11:42

acceptable behavior, that this is, that

11:48

this in fact is something outrageous.

11:50

And I think this is the challenge that we

11:50

all face that 2024 is not just liberal

11:55

versus conservative.

11:57

It's something fundamental, which is why

11:57

then you have people like, for example,

12:02

Mike Pence or Liz Cheney or Adam

12:02

Kinzinger, who are deeply

12:06

conservative individuals saying, you know,

12:06

I may agree with him on politics, but this

12:13

is just absolutely unacceptable.

12:17

This is too dangerous. And so I think what the NBC executives did

12:18

was they were going through this sort of

12:23

normal process of, okay, so we, you know,

12:23

here's a, here's a flak for the president

12:29

or here's, you know, the RNC chairman.

12:31

Why not? You know, put them on the payroll.

12:36

and what she did, the role that she

12:36

played, really should disqualify her from

12:41

being treated as a credible source of

12:41

information by any news outlet.

12:49

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, the

12:49

explanation.

12:52

You know, I want to take us back a little

12:52

bit to the past.

12:57

In 2016, you interviewed Donald Trump on

12:57

your radio program.

13:02

When I was doing some research for the

13:02

podcast, our interview today, and just

13:08

kind of this idea that you didn't actually

13:08

think that they would really call, and you

13:12

were kind of surprised that this whole

13:12

thing happened.

13:18

out to me and I'll get to my question here

13:18

but what really stuck out to me was that

13:23

like I felt a lot of empathy and maybe

13:23

it's sympathy for your position of being a

13:31

contrarian one two being but being a

13:31

conservative but feeling like this kind of

13:37

conservative party has and the Republican

13:37

Party in this conservative movement has

13:42

left you and I kind of feel in many ways

13:42

the same

13:49

You know, I'd love for you to kind of talk

13:49

about that transformation and tie in what

13:53

it was like to To talk to Donald Trump and

13:53

how that almost like that interview in

13:58

that moment Was one of the other like

13:58

notches in the belt that led you to the

14:05

place of yeah, this is This party is kind

14:05

of moving away from me or and if I'm

14:11

getting that wrong, please correct me on that I mean, it certainly was kind of a turning

14:13

point.

14:16

However, I mean, I was never Trump from

14:16

the moment he came down the golden

14:20

escalator. There was no transformation.

14:22

And this was March 28th.

14:24

I remember it very well, 2016.

14:27

And I did not expect him to call in

14:27

because the previous six months, I made it

14:31

very, very clear that I was never Trump.

14:33

And so when Hope Hicks called my producer

14:33

and said, hey, you know, you know, Mr.

14:37

Trump would like to come on the show. I was I just simply assumed that they

14:39

would Google my name.

14:43

in about 10 seconds, it would come up that

14:43

no, that he probably doesn't want to come

14:48

on the show, you know, what it's going to

14:48

be like.

14:51

So at 8.30 in the morning when I began my

14:51

show, I was surprised to see that little

14:55

light up and there he was.

14:58

And our conversation was basically

14:58

everything that I'd been thinking and

15:02

saying for the last six months.

15:04

Like, who are you? Why do you behave this way?

15:07

You know, the previous week he had

15:07

insulted the looks of Ted Cruz's wife.

15:13

And it was like, okay, you're running for

15:13

the job that Abraham Lincoln once held.

15:17

And why do you act like a nine-year-old on

15:17

the playground?

15:21

And then we went through the various

15:21

issues.

15:23

And I will say that he was a good sport

15:23

about it.

15:25

And at one point I said to him, I said, Mr. Trump, do you understand that I am never

15:27

Trump? And he said he did not know that.

15:31

But he didn't hang up on me. But what struck me at the time was that I

15:32

really did think I knew what it meant to

15:40

be a conservative. actually were looking for in a candidate.

15:46

I did not think that they were going to

15:46

embrace Donald Trump, and they didn't.

15:49

He lost badly in Wisconsin.

15:51

Wisconsin was an outline. I thought that we were going to be this

15:52

firewall.

15:55

Turned out we were just a speed bump. So that wasn't the moment that I thought

15:57

the party was leaving.

16:01

It was only later in the year, because

16:01

most of the people who listened to me for

16:05

the last 20 years, who had voted for very

16:05

conservative Republicans up and down the

16:10

line in Wisconsin, buying what Donald Trump was selling.

16:15

But what we saw later in the year was this

16:15

incredible tribalization, polarization of

16:19

our politics, which I should have seen

16:19

coming, the rallying around, the

16:24

abandonment of all of the principled

16:24

conservatives who we thought had

16:30

represented what conservatism was.

16:33

They were tossed out. The insults against Charles Krauthammer

16:35

and George

16:43

By the time of the convention, it became

16:43

obvious to me that, wow.

16:47

You understood who, at least a few months

16:47

ago, you understood who and what Donald

16:52

Trump represented, but now you're okay

16:52

with it.

16:55

And this was a very disillusioning,

16:55

disappointing, and often very

17:00

soul-crushing experience, watching one

17:00

Republican and one conservative after

17:05

another look at Donald Trump and say,

17:05

yeah, I think this man has the character

17:10

and the intellect and the principles to be

17:10

President of the United States, if that's

17:14

what they were saying. Yeah, yeah, I'm very sympathetic to my

17:18

conservative brethren.

17:23

I mean, I'm a I'm a Democrat.

17:25

Josh is a is a conservative. And I do feel bad because I know a lot of

17:27

like conservative people and within sort

17:34

of my friend circle, my family orbit that

17:34

are just like.

17:39

Like we can't even get measures and bills

17:39

passed that are important to us because

17:45

we're spending all of our time trying not

17:45

to get Trump elected.

17:50

And there is a really great quote from

17:50

somebody we had in the program, Michael

17:55

Ware, who was a spiritual advisor to

17:55

Obama.

17:58

And I'm totally probably going to butcher

17:58

this quote.

18:01

But it was something along the lines of

18:01

like, you know, when people say that they

18:05

feel politically homeless, that the real

18:05

problem is that they actually

18:09

to find a home in politics or something.

18:11

And I'd love to kind of maybe get your

18:11

sense of like, where do conservatives go?

18:20

I mean, I know a lot of conservatives are

18:20

like, I am not voting for Biden, like,

18:23

which I can appreciate that, but like, are

18:23

you just gonna stay home?

18:29

What if there's other down ballot

18:29

measures, other sort of like...

18:32

those conservatives. Yeah, so I'd love to get your take from

18:34

your point of view as a conservative,

18:40

who's been a conservative for a long time,

18:40

but not always, which would be my next

18:43

question. But I'd love to get your thoughts about

18:44

that.

18:47

Well, that's a complicated question, but I

18:47

have given a lot of thought to this,

18:52

because I know that there are some people

18:52

who believe that, okay, so if you object

18:58

to Trump, you need to become a Democrat, a

18:58

liberal Democrat.

19:00

And I understand why people are making

19:00

this argument.

19:02

You have to vote for Joe Biden. But I do think that the voters who are

19:03

going to determine this election, I think,

19:10

are that group of center-right voters who

19:10

are sort of on the bubble.

19:18

They have conservative values. They look at much of what's happening in

19:19

the culture and they find it objectionable

19:22

So it's very hard for them to suddenly

19:22

change their principles and their and

19:28

their Allegiances and vote for a Democrat,

19:28

which is why I think

19:33

The endorsement of, I mean the non

19:33

endorsement of Donald Trump by Mike Pence

19:39

is an under covered story. It's an underappreciated story because I

19:40

mean I remember when Pence was chosen as

19:45

vice president. It was a big thing for conservatives,

19:46

mainstream conservatives, particularly

19:50

conservative evangelicals because they

19:50

knew where he was coming from and he

19:54

brought them into the fold.

19:57

And what he's saying now is I was there, I

19:57

was loyal, I agreed with him.

20:03

politically, but this man is not fit.

20:06

He's not a real conservative. Now, he's not going to vote for Joe Biden.

20:10

But what he does is he provides that

20:10

permission structure for conservatives to

20:14

say, I am still a conservative, but that

20:14

doesn't mean I need to vote for Donald

20:18

Trump. Because I think our tribalized politics is

20:19

so intense now, that sense that it's a

20:23

binary choice, that if you're a

20:23

conservative, it's either Biden or it's

20:27

Trump. And if you don't agree with Joe Biden, if

20:27

you do not agree with the Democrats, you

20:32

must vote for Donald Trump. Donald Trump. And you have these very, very prominent

20:34

conservatives, Mike Pence is just one of

20:37

them, saying, no, you don't need to go

20:37

along with that.

20:40

You can do something different.

20:42

And we also have this extraordinary

20:42

moment, which again, I think is not fully

20:47

appreciated sometimes. I think that there's no historical

20:49

precedent for the number of cabinet

20:54

members and close aides to a president,

20:54

from the Secretary of Defense to the

20:58

Attorney General to his

21:03

whom are saying we were inside the room we

21:03

work with this man don't do it again.

21:08

And you look back on the Republican Party.

21:11

Right now, of all of the presidential

21:11

nominees and vice presidential nominees

21:16

since this century, the only one who is

21:16

endorsing Donald Trump right now is Sarah

21:22

Palin, not the Bushes, not the Cheneys,

21:22

not Mitt Romney, not Paul Ryan.

21:28

So this says something that even though,

21:28

someone like me, it feels like we're

21:35

completely in the wilderness, and politically homeless, there are an

21:37

awful lot of actual conservatives out

21:43

there saying, don't fall into this trap of

21:43

thinking that it is a binary choice.

21:48

You don't need to embrace things that you

21:48

find objectionable, but that doesn't mean

21:53

you need to sign on to Trump. I do think that we need to take that

21:55

segment of the electorate more seriously.

22:02

Yeah. So, um, Charlie, one of, one of the

22:02

reasons I was really excited about talking

22:07

to you is because like you have had a

22:07

pretty impressive story to career.

22:12

Um, and you know, I, I want to, I want to

22:12

kind of dig into that a little bit.

22:17

And so, you know, today you're probably

22:17

known as one of the most vocal critics of

22:21

Trump. Um, you're, you're a wonderful voice to

22:22

remind us that we're not the crazy ones.

22:28

Um, of which I appreciate.

22:30

I need to, I need to hear that. to like on my thought wall or whatever,

22:31

you know?

22:37

But you're definitely defined by a lot

22:37

more than that.

22:41

And I'd love for you just to kind of talk

22:41

to us a little bit more about how you got

22:46

your start, you know, and how you became a

22:46

conservative.

22:52

I mentioned earlier that you weren't

22:52

always a conservative, so maybe you can

22:54

kind of talk to us a little bit about, you

22:54

know, the history of, origin story of

23:00

Charlie Sykes. Well, it's a long story. I'm going to try to make it a short story.

23:03

And feel, feel free to interrupt me on

23:03

this.

23:05

I mean, I grew up in a liberal democratic

23:05

household.

23:07

My father was chairman of the Wisconsin

23:07

Civil Liberties Union.

23:11

My first major political campaign was in

23:11

1968, when my father was the Wisconsin

23:16

campaign manager for Eugene McCarthy, who

23:16

was the Democratic senator from Minnesota,

23:21

running as the anti-Vietnam war candidate

23:21

against Lyndon Johnson.

23:26

I became very active in young Democrats.

23:30

as in my high school years.

23:33

But I think that ultimately the core

23:33

values were that I was a classical

23:39

liberal, but also a contrarian, which is

23:39

that being from a journalistic background,

23:45

I was always skeptical, always asking

23:45

questions.

23:48

And I became a newspaper reporter covering

23:48

urban issues.

23:51

And I'll make this, noticing that, well,

23:51

wait, these things don't work.

23:57

They may have good intentions, but they

23:57

have disastrous concepts.

24:01

And in the 70s, I thought, and this seems

24:01

ironic now,

24:07

that the conservative writers were the

24:07

ones who were the most intellectually

24:12

interesting. They were willing to ask questions.

24:14

They were willing to challenge these

24:14

orthodoxies.

24:17

And I thought liberalism had become

24:17

sclerotic.

24:21

It had become rather smug and disconnected

24:21

with a lot of the, you know, a lot of the,

24:30

I think concerns that a lot of Americans

24:30

have.

24:33

So I became more and more skeptical

24:37

of liberal dogma and began to...

24:41

you know, ask some of these questions and

24:41

people say, well, you're becoming a

24:44

right-winger, you're becoming a

24:44

conservative.

24:46

And I remember thinking, I don't care what

24:46

you call me, maybe I am.

24:52

And so over time, I think I became more

24:52

comfortable.

24:54

Now, this all took a terribly wrong turn,

24:54

I'm afraid, because, you know, as our

25:00

politics became more polarized,

25:00

particularly when I, you know, I, by the

25:04

way, just before we get into the talk

25:04

radio world, I mean, I had written, I've

25:07

written nine books, you know, in-depth.

25:11

about education reform, higher education,

25:11

our culture of victimization.

25:16

I wrote a book about the right of privacy.

25:20

When I became, you know, yes, I'm sorry. where the forward was by William Buckley.

25:25

Yes, the National Review College Guide at

25:25

one time.

25:29

And I really admired people like William

25:29

F.

25:31

Buckley just tremendously. I mean, for me, you know, as a young

25:33

person trying to figure out, you know, who

25:37

do I want to emulate, you know, somebody

25:37

with that kind of intelligence and that

25:41

kind of eloquence. And I was really attracted to that.

25:45

So I came into the conservative movement

25:45

actually thinking that it was a set of

25:49

ideas, very, very provocative ideas, you

25:49

know, and as opposed to the, and again, so

25:58

I come in somebody that did not grow up as a

25:59

conservative in the Goldwater era or

26:03

anything. So I came in a different way.

26:06

So what happened later to the conservative

26:06

movement I think probably took me by

26:10

surprise. Well, very much took me by surprise, which

26:10

it shouldn't have.

26:15

But when I became part of a talk radio in

26:15

the beginning, I thought we were just

26:20

simply presenting the other side of the

26:20

story, that we were providing a different

26:23

point of view. As we know, that morphed into an echo

26:24

chamber, a bubble.

26:29

an alternative reality silo over the

26:29

years.

26:32

It also became more hyper partisan and

26:32

tribal.

26:36

And I became part of that. And I look back on that with tremendous

26:38

regret because

26:44

because, and I think this is one of the

26:44

things that's happened to our culture, is

26:48

that it becomes, you know, the fight

26:48

becomes about the fight.

26:52

And I believed everything that I was

26:52

saying, but at a certain point, you begin

26:56

to think of yourself as the tip of the

26:56

spear, rather than as a thoughtful

27:01

purveyor of ideas and principles.

27:04

And I look back on that with a great deal

27:04

of regret.

27:08

And, but it also provided me with an

27:08

understanding of kind of what happened,

27:15

of the conservative movement, which Daniel

27:15

Patrick Moynihan, I think, once suggested,

27:20

you know, the Republicans had become the

27:20

party of ideas.

27:23

Does anybody say that anymore? So how did we go from William F.

27:28

Buckley Jr. to Sarah Palin?

27:31

How did we go from George Will to Tucker

27:31

Carlson?

27:35

How do you go from Ronald Reagan to Donald

27:35

Trump?

27:39

These are not obvious transitions, at

27:39

least to me.

27:43

Yeah, I would, I would love to dig into

27:43

that a little bit more because I remember

27:50

when, so I voted for Trump in 2016.

27:54

And I remember waking up in the morning

27:54

and looking at the results and seeing that

27:58

he won and being very surprised.

28:01

And all of this, you know, all of this

28:01

stuff was coming out that basically, you

28:07

know, that the liberal media, and that's a

28:07

lot of what I read, right, was

28:12

conservative stuff. So like the liberal media missed it or

28:13

they, you know, basically they didn't take

28:20

into account flyover country.

28:22

They didn't really see how people were

28:22

really feeling.

28:26

They missed it. Brexit. Different things around the world where

28:27

these now more conservative movements.

28:33

like that people were feeling differently.

28:35

And you kind of alluded to like that the

28:35

conservatives in the past were kind of

28:40

tapping into something where maybe the

28:40

common man felt something or there was a

28:45

movement there that attracted them and

28:45

things like that.

28:49

And these ideas that were fundamental was

28:49

what was so attractive.

28:54

What were some of the shifts that

28:54

happened?

28:57

And like, and you, and you've said a

28:57

couple of times, I should have known.

29:00

What do you mean when you say that you

29:00

should have known, you should have seen

29:04

it, you should have understood it before,

29:04

like looking back in retrospect, because

29:10

everything's easier in retrospect to see.

29:13

Right? So what were those things where you're

29:14

like, hmm, at that time, that should have

29:18

been the signal to me that things were

29:18

shifting and that I needed to, you know,

29:24

shift my own thinking and activity.

29:27

Well, it was really only in late 2016 that

29:27

I began to realize the things had gone so

29:34

far off the rail. We'd always known that there were the

29:35

extremists, the crazy uncles in the room,

29:44

but I always believed that the center

29:44

would hold.

29:48

And one of the things that I did over the

29:48

years was I would push back against what I

29:51

thought were the crackpots, the people who

29:51

were pushing crazy ideas

29:57

I was one of those who said, okay, you

29:57

know, let's, this, the left says that we

30:03

are these, you know, ignorant redneck

30:03

racists, you know, reactionaries, and

30:09

let's prove to them that they're wrong. And then of course 2016 comes along and

30:11

it's like, wait, you've taken every

30:14

caricature that the left has of them and

30:14

you've embraced it.

30:18

Like no, we really are like that. So I mean, look, I knew that there were

30:20

the people who supported Pat Buchanan.

30:23

I knew that there were the Ron Pauls, you

30:23

know, populist isolationists out there.

30:28

But I always thought that ultimately the

30:28

common sense would prevail.

30:34

And afterwards, I remember very shortly

30:34

after the 2016 election, I was talking

30:38

with George Will on my radio show, who I

30:38

admire tremendously due to this day.

30:43

And he was mentioning, you know, I think

30:43

our fundamental mistake was that we

30:49

thought that the intellectual

30:49

conservatives, you know, the people who

30:53

wrote for National Review and everything

30:53

at that time,

30:57

were, you know, that was the conservative

30:57

movement, but actually this was this thin

31:02

pie crust on top of this molten, this

31:02

molten populist base that we did not

31:07

understand. And that, you know, even though it was for

31:08

years, we could appeal to the better

31:13

angels, like, no, you don't really believe

31:13

the Barack Obama.

31:17

in Kenya, you know, I mean that's not the

31:17

point.

31:19

You can disagree with him on tax policy,

31:19

but don't go that way.

31:23

We thought that was effective. It turns out that's what the public

31:25

wanted.

31:29

The Tea Party, I think, probably should

31:29

have been a little bit of a warning sign

31:32

in this respect. In the beginning, I think it was, had all

31:34

the marks of a genuine grassroots

31:39

movement, but quickly morphed into what

31:39

we've seen as the pattern, became taken

31:44

over by and took on kind of an ugly tone.

31:51

But again, I always thought, and really up

31:51

through 2016, that did not represent where

31:59

the party was going to go. And even when Trump was elected, even when

32:01

Trump was elected, I thought that there

32:07

would still be a very powerful remnant of

32:07

the conservative movement that'd say,

32:11

well, OK, we'll go along with you on tax

32:11

cuts and judges, but we're going to draw

32:15

the line here. we actually do think that character

32:17

matters.

32:21

And that collapse was shocking and it

32:21

continues to be shocking.

32:27

And you can even see like even right now,

32:27

even within the last few months, if you

32:32

listen carefully to people like Mike Pence

32:32

or Nikki Haley, even Ron DeSantis, they

32:38

are genuinely shocked by how thoroughly

32:38

the Republican party.

32:44

has been transformed, how it's become a

32:44

cult of personality.

32:49

Donald Trump did not change to adjust to

32:49

what the Republican Party was.

32:55

The Republican Party has completely remade

32:55

itself, including evangelicals who went

33:02

from being the group that said, yes,

33:02

character matters the most, to being the

33:07

demographic group that says that personal

33:07

character mattered the least when it came

33:12

to electing a candidate.

33:14

Hmm So some of that was a pre-existing

33:14

condition.

33:17

I mean, the dysfunction was a pre-existing

33:17

condition.

33:21

But I certainly did not understand the

33:21

degree to which they were, these

33:27

principles were contingent.

33:29

They were prepared to drop them.

33:32

On the other hand, to your point, I think

33:32

that we underestimated some of the...

33:42

I really did underestimate the capacity of

33:42

conservatives to tolerate.

33:50

racism and anti-Semitism and a variety of

33:50

other things.

33:55

I'm not one of those who say everybody was

33:55

racist all the time, but there's no

33:58

question about it. Their willingness to tolerate it is

34:00

extraordinary.

34:04

I thought we had reached a point where it

34:04

was like we've moved past that.

34:08

And I think that's been one of the really

34:08

shocking revelations of the last few

34:12

years. Yeah.

34:15

When, when Trump was elected, um, I

34:15

remember having a conversation with my

34:20

wife, um, and, and sort of equating kind

34:20

of his rise as like the Frankenstein

34:26

monster, um, that he was sort of created

34:26

in sort of this like environment, um,

34:32

where, you know, like folks like Roger

34:32

Stone and Alex Jones and, and whatnot are

34:38

become mainstream. And, and like, when you, when you think

34:39

about sort of the, the

34:45

like he wasn't created singularly by

34:45

himself.

34:49

Like Dr. Frankenstein needed components, right, to

34:49

kind of create the contraption or the

34:53

device. And ultimately he pulled the lever, right?

34:56

But like he had to sort of source out

34:56

parts and materials to create this thing.

35:03

And you've mentioned a few times that, you

35:03

know, you felt like you may have

35:07

contributed in some way, small or big to

35:07

sort of like the rise of Trump.

35:12

And I'd love to maybe just get your

35:12

thoughts.

35:15

on what specifically do you think you've

35:15

done and to have contributed, and maybe

35:22

what advice would you have for other radio

35:22

show people or network television

35:30

broadcasters? Well, I mean, there's no question about it

35:32

that Trump was really a creature of

35:36

conservative talk radio and of the new

35:36

conservative media.

35:40

Now, Fox News resisted him for a little

35:40

while, but then caved in.

35:46

Rush Limbaugh caved in very, very early.

35:48

Part of the story, my backstory is that in

35:48

Wisconsin, conservative talk radio was

35:52

very anti-Trump and succeeded in blocking

35:52

him.

35:55

So none of that was necessarily

35:55

inevitable.

35:58

But to your specific question, This goes back, I think, to one of the

36:02

developments.

36:06

I was on talk radio for 23 years.

36:08

So in the beginning, we had people from

36:08

both political parties on.

36:13

We had debates. I was a conservative, but this was a

36:15

discussion of the issues.

36:21

And often what I thought was the strongest

36:21

was, OK, well, here's a serious discussion

36:27

of this policy issue.

36:32

was urban school choice, which I still

36:32

think was a good idea.

36:39

But as time went on, particularly as you

36:39

got into the 2010s, it became much more

36:46

partisan, much more tribal. We had a big fight here in Wisconsin over

36:47

Act 10.

36:51

This was, you know, Scott Walker becomes

36:51

the governor, and they pushed through

36:55

legislation that limited public employee

36:55

union rights.

37:00

At a certain point, that normalization, longer became about public employee

37:01

unionism, it became about us versus them.

37:07

And it became incredibly polarizing,

37:07

incredibly emotional, incredibly take no

37:13

prisoners. And as I look back on what happened later,

37:14

what I think we missed was that the

37:21

tribalization, the polarization, the us

37:21

versus them, that we have to win so that

37:26

you lose. became the dominant ethos.

37:29

And that explains the Republican Party's

37:29

embrace of Trump.

37:34

So that I simply assumed that

37:34

conservatives would look at Trump, and

37:38

even when he got the nomination, and go,

37:38

yeah, no, that's not what we believe.

37:41

We're not going along with that. I mean, we can talk about the, you know,

37:43

the.

37:48

the baggage that Hillary Clinton had,

37:48

which was unique and which Democrats did

37:51

not fully appreciate at the time.

37:54

But what I didn't fully appreciate was

37:54

that the fact is that we had changed

37:58

politics from being about ideas into being

37:58

a team sport.

38:02

And I think that we're seeing that. And I certainly, I think, did contribute

38:03

to that polarization.

38:08

And so when I tried to sort of stand

38:08

athwart all of this and say, yes, but not

38:11

Trump, you're not going to go along with

38:11

this.

38:13

This is not what conservatives believe.

38:16

You know, this is, we're not going to

38:16

build a wall along the border.

38:19

This is not, you know, what is this about? That sort of thing.

38:24

It was already too late at that point. Plus, the other big change happened with

38:26

misinformation and disinformation.

38:32

You know, for decades, I'd been able to

38:32

push back against that and say, okay, so

38:37

you have this story about, you know, dead

38:37

bodies in a warehouse, and here's the

38:41

actual fact check on this. And you don't want to, you know, pass on

38:42

things that are, you know, BS.

38:47

By late 2016, people were saying, well,

38:47

no.

38:53

I mean, before that, people would say,

38:53

well, thank you.

38:55

I'm not going to forward Uncle Otto's

38:55

email anymore.

38:58

By 2016, you couldn't refute the

38:58

disinformation because nothing that came

39:04

from the liberal media was believed.

39:06

And this was the siloing. And that was, OK, I had been critical of

39:08

the mainstream media for years and then

39:13

realized at a certain point, we had

39:13

succeeded not in making them better or

39:18

more balanced, we had succeeded in

39:18

discrediting them completely.

39:22

all the guardrails were gone and the

39:22

immune system of the conservative movement

39:27

to bad information had been destroyed.

39:31

Wow. is. absolutely fascinating.

39:34

And it makes me think about the even like

39:34

I'm an evangelical.

39:40

So it makes me think about the role of

39:40

faith, the role of evangelicalism and all

39:45

of this. I'm also a Pentecostal by heritage and by

39:46

theology.

39:52

And Pentecostals have been at the center

39:52

of this

40:02

the New Apostolic Reformation, which we've

40:02

talked a lot about things like the seven

40:06

mountain mandate that we've talked about a

40:06

lot about people this equation of Cyrus or

40:10

Trump. This is all coming out of the Pentecostal

40:11

charismatic leaders and movements and it

40:16

makes me nervous. It hurts me in a lot of ways in my heart

40:18

because I don't like that kind of talk.

40:25

I think it's like talking about the

40:25

guardrails, the guardrails of good

40:28

exegesis, the guardrails Great.

40:31

Thank you. taken off and we've had a lot of

40:32

conservative, you know, theologians, Bible

40:39

scholars, people that are getting

40:39

published by Zondervan, Erdmanns, Baker,

40:42

these are not, you know, an argument can

40:42

maybe be made, but yeah, these are, these

40:47

are not like liberal, like, you know,

40:47

these are people, this is, these are

40:51

really mainstream good.

40:54

solid people like Trimper Longman. We've talked to him several times.

40:56

He's a very well-known Old Testament

40:56

scholar and we've asked him these

41:00

questions. He's like, people have just abandoned

41:01

exegesis.

41:03

He's also very vocal about... and everything that's happening with Trump

41:06

and Christian nationalism in particular.

41:11

And you know, we had the pleasure of

41:11

having Dan Partland on the show before

41:20

with the director of God in Country.

41:23

And we know you're in that, yeah, it was

41:23

great documentary and really appreciated

41:29

your part in it. But I would love for you to kind of talk

41:31

about this

41:36

senior perspective, this wedding of faith

41:36

in power, faith in politics.

41:42

I mean, religion and politics have always

41:42

been around.

41:44

We cannot, anyone who understands history

41:44

knows that they've seen that.

41:48

The separation has never really worked all

41:48

that well.

41:52

That's always been there to some degree.

41:55

But how concerning is it to you, this

41:55

Christian nationalism in our current

42:01

moment? And how do you see that we've gotten here

42:03

from your perspective, from what you

42:06

understand in your time in conservative

42:06

talk radio, essentially?

42:12

let me take two different approaches to

42:12

that, because you're right.

42:16

Now, so as somebody who was raised in a

42:16

very secular environment, my father was

42:22

Jewish, my mother was, I would say,

42:22

non-practicing Methodist, and I converted

42:30

in my youth. One of the writers that was most

42:32

influential for me was C.S.

42:35

Lewis. I believe I've read every single book that

42:36

he ever wrote.

42:39

But again, this was part of this period

42:41

life where I was searching out the people

42:41

who were the most interesting and serious

42:46

thinkers. C.S.

42:49

Lewis introduced me to a Christian

42:49

theology with real depth, nuance, and

42:56

intelligence. And so this is also part of the, you know,

42:57

watching the abandonment of that, that

43:04

serious approach to theology.

43:08

I have very little to add to what Dan

43:08

Partlin has told you or what Tim Alberta

43:14

has told you about what's been happening

43:14

to the church.

43:19

podcast I had Peter Weiner on a regular

43:19

basis I had David French on and we dealt

43:25

with this and tried to get our heads

43:25

around from the point of view of people of

43:31

faith what is happening to all of this and

43:31

I have to say this remains one of my most

43:37

one of the most difficult things for me to

43:37

really understand and it helps to know

43:44

that people who are much more

43:44

knowledgeable than I am are

43:48

with this and understanding this. Okay.

43:51

So, and yeah, I mean, it is really

43:51

difficult.

43:55

And I think it is a real crisis for the

43:55

church writ large, because, you know, you

44:02

have many, you know, Christians who are

44:02

thinking, okay, this is not my

44:07

understanding of Christianity.

44:09

This seems more, you know, this seems more

44:09

cult-like, but also seems an abandonment

44:15

of to the political, using Christianity and

44:18

Christian identity as a cudgel.

44:24

And so there's a huge price to be paid by

44:24

the church for putting political power.

44:32

Ahead of faith. I mean in many ways it's a means to an end

44:34

I mean I understand that they believe that

44:39

what they're doing in politics is a means

44:39

to an end But you know at what cost you

44:43

know what you know what? Profits at you to gain the whole world if

44:45

you lose your soul So there is that but

44:50

let me give you the flip side of this as

44:50

well because I remember talking about this

44:53

extensively in 2016 and I think it's

44:53

something that people on the left have

45:00

been slow to understand because the

45:00

reality

45:02

is and I and let's go back to 2016 what I

45:02

what I saw happening right there you had

45:09

many Christians who felt that they were

45:09

under siege they were under attack that

45:13

they were being disrespected and some of

45:13

that was exaggerated but it was not

45:19

totally I mean there are people who in

45:19

fact do have contempt for religion there

45:24

are secularists who do not respect people

45:24

of conscience and one of the

45:32

publicly and privately at the time was I

45:32

was telling somebody you know like why are

45:37

evangelicals you know abandoning the Democratic Party and I

45:40

said, well, I do think that you need to

45:45

have more of an appreciation for the very

45:45

specific issue of religious freedom and

45:51

religious conscience because and even now

45:51

I think this is a vulnerable area that if

45:58

you do not have respect for people who

46:03

do not want to be required to perform

46:03

abortions, or people who have different

46:08

views about same-sex marriage.

46:10

If you are not willing to tolerate them,

46:10

then you are going to push them into the

46:14

opposition. And so I think there was an issue of

46:15

respect.

46:18

uh... versus contempt there was also the issue

46:18

of whether or not we were going to respect

46:25

religious freedom so issues like you know

46:25

the and i don't have them you know the you

46:32

know we know what were some of the cases

46:32

that went up they know i remember the

46:36

little sisters of uh... there was there was an issue involving

46:37

obama care and i mean and these issues

46:43

became very big on the right that you're

46:43

forcing people to do

46:48

I remember I used to have a television

46:48

show in Milwaukee and would have the

46:52

Archbishop now, Cardinal Dolan, on.

46:55

was a deeply popular man, but man of

46:55

faith.

47:00

And he told me very bluntly that if the

47:00

federal government required Catholic

47:05

hospitals to perform abortions, they would

47:05

just shut them down.

47:08

They would just shut them all down. And he realized, OK, we can live in a

47:10

society, and again, this is what a liberal

47:17

democracy is, where you tolerate and

47:17

respect different points of view.

47:21

You don't need to adopt them. And I'm not sure that the left has always

47:22

respected that.

47:25

putting that very, very mildly.

47:29

And so I do think that the sense that

47:29

religious freedom and religious liberty

47:34

were under siege was a huge factor behind

47:34

what we're describing here, the

47:41

polarization of evangelicals.

47:43

Because once you convince them that

47:43

they're coming for you, they hate you,

47:48

they are going to force their values on

47:48

you, and they really don't respect

47:56

you are going to get resistance and a

47:56

backlash, and we have seen that rather

48:01

dramatically. And I do remember making this point over

48:02

and over again, and I'm not sure that it's

48:07

fully, has been fully taken on board even

48:07

to this day.

48:12

That is so incisive.

48:14

I know Will's got a question. I'm gonna let him go, but I just wanted to

48:16

say, you hit the nail on the head, because

48:21

for me, the reason I voted for Trump in

48:21

2016 was religious freedom, and I thought

48:26

he was the only candidate who cared about

48:26

it, for me.

48:29

Now, was I right or wrong? I don't know.

48:32

I guess now we're seeing in hindsight all

48:32

the consequences, but that was exactly the

48:37

reason that I did, and my wife, and all

48:37

the other conservative Christians

48:43

Yeah, you know, there's a really good

48:43

book.

48:47

I can't recommend enough. Actually, by the person that Josh has

48:49

mentioned, Trimper Longman, he wrote a

48:51

book called The Bible and the Ballot,

48:51

which is like phenomenal book.

48:56

It sort of talks about like, or it

48:56

addresses some of the major.

49:03

I don't know, issues that people see in

49:03

the media and how we should really view

49:08

them from a Christian perspective. And there's a section there about

49:10

Christians feeling like they're being

49:15

persecuted. And I'll just give you the quick summary.

49:19

He's like, yeah, that's biblical.

49:21

Basically in the book is like, yeah,

49:21

you're going to be persecuted.

49:25

So just like that's what you signed up

49:25

for.

49:34

like Christian nationalism in the media

49:34

and how should journalists approach this?

49:42

because there are some really, really

49:42

great reporters that cover this space.

49:48

There's like Catherine Stewart from the

49:48

New Republic or Brian Kaler from Word &

49:52

Way. But on MSNBC, it was like Heidi Presbola,

49:53

I think that's how you say her name, made

49:59

a comment and it further added more

49:59

gasoline to,

50:12

to believe in God or whatnot. So like how should we cover this?

50:15

you Okay, well first of all, that was a big

50:15

deal, and really, really unfortunate.

50:20

I do think that one of the problems, when

50:20

we talk about the diversity, we need more

50:25

diversity, and diversity of ideas.

50:28

Diversity of religious ideas would help

50:28

tremendously, because in my experience,

50:34

both in academia and in the media,

50:34

Christians are significantly

50:39

underrepresented. And as a result, you have lots of secular,

50:45

who really just don't understand, who are

50:45

completely unfamiliar with Christian ideas

50:51

and Christian doctrine. I mean, it's completely alien to them.

50:55

I mean, I remember there's a famous story,

50:55

going back to the early 1990s, probably

51:02

before your time. where the Washington Post had a front page

51:03

article about who are these evangelical

51:07

Christians. And I think it's had something like,

51:08

they're basically uneducated, easily led.

51:12

And it was one stereotype after another.

51:18

And afterwards people said, well, how did

51:18

that get through the editing desk?

51:22

How did you? write something that was that offensive

51:23

about that, you know, a group of

51:27

Americans. You can't imagine writing that about

51:27

Muslims or about Jews or about any ethnic

51:34

minority or any group. Why would you write something like that

51:36

was that offensive?

51:38

And I think the answer was, and I've

51:38

written about this, was there was probably

51:42

nobody in the editing process who was an

51:42

evangelical Christian or was particularly

51:49

well-informed about evangelical

51:49

Christians.

51:51

I mean, it was a completely different Okay, let's fast forward to the debate

51:53

about Christian nationalism, which is, as

51:58

Josh points out, is a very legitimate

51:58

issue.

52:01

But in order to really understand it, you

52:01

have to understand.

52:06

the relationship of Christian nationalism

52:06

to biblical Christianity, to other forms

52:11

of Christianity, and I will say this as a

52:11

contributor to MSNBC, sometimes these

52:17

arguments, you know, in the liberal media

52:17

do show a complete lack of appreciation

52:23

for and understanding of those

52:23

distinctions, which are important.

52:27

So that leads to that incident you're

52:27

describing.

52:31

And by the way, I know Heidi, I don't know what happened, but let's just

52:36

leave the personalities out of it.

52:40

There was this discussion about what is

52:40

Christian nationalism and You know it

52:46

comes up. Well if you believe that your rights come

52:47

from God rather than from you know The

52:52

Constitution that's a sign of Christian

52:52

nationalism

52:57

And anybody that saw them went, wait,

52:57

that's not the definition.

53:01

This is something that Christians and

53:01

frankly, you know, even non-Christian

53:07

Americans like Thomas Jefferson have been

53:07

talking about for a very long time.

53:12

So there was a level of insensitivity and

53:12

lack of knowledge that was really

53:18

shocking. And so when the media talks about this,

53:19

they have to find a way to be respectful.

53:26

of Christians. And I think that this is something that

53:27

people pick up on.

53:31

I mean, you're familiar with Arthur

53:31

Brooks, who used to be, who's written very

53:37

extensively. And he has a great insight where he talks

53:38

about the dangers of contempt in political

53:45

debate, that the moment when you roll your

53:45

eyes and show contempt for somebody, the

53:51

conversation's over. If you think that I have contempt for you,

53:53

you're not going to be that interested in

53:57

hearing my ideas about social security

53:57

reform or foreign policy or education

54:03

reform. You're thinking this is somebody who looks

54:04

down on me and it's over.

54:08

And I think this is a real problem in

54:08

talking about any of these issues

54:12

involving Christianity because there is a

54:12

distinction.

54:16

Christian nationalism is something

54:16

separate from belief that our rights come

54:22

from God and from the government.

54:25

And I didn't even know how they made that

54:25

mistake.

54:28

But unfortunately, this is what happens in

54:28

an environment where you have a lack of

54:32

diversity and respect for ideas, including

54:32

Christian ideas.

54:36

that makes a lot of sense and getting that

54:36

defining Christian nationalism vis-a-vis,

54:44

evangelical Christianity vis-a-vis, other

54:44

kinds of Christianity is going to be super

54:50

important, I think, as we move into the

54:50

future.

54:52

And that idea, with that idea, what do you

54:52

think, where do you see the future of

54:59

conservative politics and even the role of

54:59

critique within

55:06

system. I love that idea. Where do you see conservative politics

55:08

going and how do we reinvigorate this

55:13

immune system within it?

55:17

I'll be honest with you, I don't know.

55:20

It's hard to see past the moment we're in

55:20

right now because I think things are gonna

55:25

get worse because we've become more

55:25

siloed.

55:28

We have become, all the incentive

55:28

structure in communication has been to the

55:32

extreme voices. And it's very hard to find a forum where

55:34

you can have this intelligent distinction

55:39

like on Christian nationalism. It is this, but it is not this, which is

55:40

really important.

55:44

In fact, those distinctions have just come

55:44

up

55:47

again and again. It's like, okay, George Will is not Tucker

55:47

Carlson.

55:53

William F. Buckley is not Ann Coulter.

55:56

These are important to understand this.

55:59

So what is the internal critique of

55:59

conservatism?

56:02

Right now, I feel like there's almost a

56:02

suspension of serious discussion of ideas.

56:09

It has all been, all the oxygen has been

56:09

sucked out by, are you pro-Trump or

56:13

anti-Trump? Do you believe in the big lie or do you

56:13

not believe in the big lie?

56:17

And so there is work being done, but it's

56:17

very much in the shadows right now.

56:25

And so, you know, early on after Trump was

56:25

elected, I gave a lot of interviews where

56:29

I said there's going to be a, you know,

56:29

big, you know, rethinking of conservative

56:33

values. And I was assuming that at some point, you

56:33

know, this would pass and that we would

56:37

begin, you know, seriously discussing it.

56:40

That is not really happening. Now, again, people will push back and say,

56:41

well, what about this

56:46

that think tank. Well, that doesn't represent really what's

56:48

going on with the conservative movement at

56:51

this point. But, you know, the pieces are going to

56:53

have to be picked up.

56:56

There's not going to be a return to

56:56

Reaganism.

56:59

There's going to have to be a new

56:59

fusionism.

57:02

But this is not going to be over anytime

57:02

soon.

57:06

And unfortunately, the voices that are

57:06

critiquing where conservatism is going

57:11

right now tend to be, to risk

57:11

excommunication.

57:19

Yeah. And again, to circle back to the Mike

57:21

Pence's and the Liz Cheney's, I mean I

57:25

don't necessarily agree with all of them,

57:25

but to suggest that they are not actual

57:29

conservatives is ridiculous. To suggest that somebody like a David

57:32

French or Peter Weiner are not real

57:35

conservatives. Russell Moore is a conservative Christian

57:36

and yet is demonized by MAGA because he's

57:42

not willing to go along with Trump.

57:46

the storm to break. Yeah, you know, so my last question for

57:49

you, and this has been great, by the way,

57:54

like, I just really enjoy just hearing

57:54

what you have to say.

57:58

You know, we sort of pride ourselves on

57:58

this podcast as just being able to talk to

58:05

a bunch of diverse group of people.

58:08

I mean, like, we've had the first

58:08

transgender bishop on our show.

58:14

We've also had the co-founder of the

58:14

Satanic Temple.

58:19

and the founder of the Reawakened Tour.

58:24

President of the Heritage Foundation. Yeah, and a whole bunch in between,

58:25

obviously.

58:29

So that gives you any sense of sort of the

58:29

audience and demographic that we're trying

58:32

to reach. And with that in mind, I'd love for you to

58:33

maybe give us your thoughts on what hope

58:41

do you have for the future of America?

58:45

Because I feel like there's a lot that

58:45

people...

58:49

No, there's a lot for people to not be

58:49

hopeful for.

58:53

You know, but there is some stuff that

58:53

people can be hopeful for.

58:56

Like when we asked this question to Tim

58:56

Alberta and he was like, hey, the young

59:01

people, young people are the are the ones

59:01

that give me a lot of hope.

59:04

You know, and he kind of expanded on the

59:04

reason why.

59:07

So so what is it that gives Charlie Sykes

59:07

hope for the future of America?

59:11

Well, I have a lot that's not hopeful, but

59:11

I agree with Tim.

59:16

And I think part of it is that there's a

59:16

fundamental decency of the American people

59:21

that you notice anytime you get off social

59:21

media and you go out into the world, you

59:25

come out of your basement and you talk to

59:25

people.

59:27

You go to soccer games, you go to little

59:27

league games.

59:30

And people are not talking about politics.

59:32

And it is remarkable to me, the moment you

59:32

step out of politics.

59:37

you realize that we have so much more in

59:37

common.

59:40

I mean, this is why I think you quoted

59:40

somebody as saying, don't make politics

59:44

your identity because once you begin

59:44

talking about that, you have the

59:48

divisions. Whereas if you leave out the top line and

59:49

even talk about ideas, like even have a

59:55

discussion about, what should our policy

59:55

be on infrastructure?

59:59

Let's not talk about Trump or Biden and everything. You'll find that people like wanna solve

1:00:01

problems, want to go through it.

1:00:04

So what you hope for is that the vast

1:00:04

majority

1:00:07

Americans who are not the rabid partisans.

1:00:11

They're now the exhausted Americans that

1:00:11

they will not become They will not the

1:00:16

exhausted Americans will not give up on

1:00:16

politics, but will exert some sort of

1:00:21

influence like okay guys Aren't we tired

1:00:21

of?

1:00:25

Crapping on each other all the time. Are we tired of this because there's

1:00:27

something Exhausting about keeping the

1:00:33

emotional intensity up all the time.

1:00:35

You can't do it There is this, and I know it's a cliche in

1:00:37

politics, the silent majority or the vast

1:00:43

middle. I think they're under siege, but they're

1:00:44

still there.

1:00:48

And so I think in terms of the hope, look

1:00:48

to the younger generation, but also look

1:00:55

to your neighbors who are not necessarily

1:00:55

glued to truth social or to cable

1:01:01

television. I would certainly suggest to people the

1:01:03

less politics they consume, and this is my

1:01:07

business by the way, but the less politics

1:01:07

they consume, the better they are and the

1:01:12

more likely it is that they will be able

1:01:12

to retain their sanity.

1:01:15

Because part of this, my message that you

1:01:15

are not the crazy,

1:01:18

one is you know don't inject this stuff

1:01:18

into your veins all the time life is

1:01:24

bigger life is better than this

1:01:28

That's wonderful and I think it's a great

1:01:28

way to kind of end the show.

1:01:32

Well, for people that don't know who you

1:01:32

are, how can people follow you?

1:01:40

For those that want to get their sort of

1:01:40

post-Bowlwork fix in their veins, how can

1:01:46

folks follow you and just read what you're

1:01:46

up to?

1:01:49

Well, you know, I'm still on whatever

1:01:49

Twitter is called these days, you know, at

1:01:53

sites Charlie. I'm also on threads and I am writing for a

1:01:54

variety of other publications and

1:01:59

hopefully we'll be able to put together a

1:01:59

book that makes some sense of our times, a

1:02:07

post Trump book about what's happening to

1:02:07

our culture.

1:02:11

But that is, as they say, a work in

1:02:11

progress.

1:02:15

Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Charlie Sykes.

1:02:18

This has been a phenomenal interview.

1:02:21

Good luck to just everything that you're

1:02:21

doing.

1:02:24

We just really appreciate just what you've

1:02:24

contributed to America.

1:02:28

Yeah, thank you.

1:02:33

To our listeners and watchers, thanks for

1:02:33

tuning in and as always, keep your

1:02:38

conversations not right, not left, but up,

1:02:38

and we'll see you next time.

1:02:41

Take care.