0:01

This is a head gum podcast.

0:05

Big

0:05

donation episode three twenty three.

0:08

Hello. Hello. This is Big nation where we talk about

0:10

news, we talk about culture and where we try to avoid

0:12

the east side because it's UN General

0:14

Assembly Week. Wahoo!

0:18

and I'm your host, the dude for a pod.

0:21

And I don't think there's gonna be much peacemaking

0:23

happening there this week because I mean,

0:25

some of the players like China and Russia are just not

0:28

showing up, which is so fun. But also

0:30

because the dignitaries are super into

0:32

bottleneck necking, and it's all just trash

0:34

jams and people being unable to actually

0:37

make make it to their meetings. It's

0:39

too early for us to talk about you and drama because

0:41

don't know how the week is gonna shape up. So instead,

0:45

we're gonna talk about Martha's

0:48

Vineyard. We're gonna talk about the Patagonia billionaire

0:50

who's giving away his fortune. and about

0:52

women who don't have children. I am

0:55

so excited by today's

0:57

panel. Folks, joining

1:00

us for the whateverth time

1:02

She's a veteran of the show. She's

1:06

she's just a remarkable young lady

1:09

who you can follow at

1:11

NYT Valves, this is,

1:13

like, the most hilarious

1:16

parody account. I

1:18

I feel that I that I follow person

1:20

Italy. It's a it's making fun of the wedding

1:22

section of the New York Times, so you can it's NYT

1:25

vials on Instagram and on Twitter. and

1:27

she just has like nonstop

1:30

hilariousness. In the entire bridal

1:33

industrial complex, just

1:35

keeps giving her material. She's

1:38

also the host of the remarkable candle

1:41

based podcast two week

1:44

minimum. It is literally

1:47

a podcast about candles because this person

1:49

is so fucking funny

1:51

all the time. It is the wonderful Selena

1:53

Kappa k. Selena. Hey,

1:56

Negan. Oh, it's so good to see you.

1:58

Right. Very good to see

1:59

you.

2:00

Thank you. love me. Of course,

2:03

I love that you're on the show. It actually

2:05

for a second look like you were talking into

2:07

a candle, just like the way the light was

2:09

hitting -- Hi. -- your your microphone.

2:12

Oh, my gosh. Well, the logo of my podcast

2:14

is my head inside flame of a candle.

2:16

So I'm getting close. I'm getting close. I'm

2:18

getting close. I mean, in this candle season

2:20

right now, breakout the pumpkin candle is so

2:22

into it. Absolutely. And it's

2:24

an exciting time for your podcast. Oh,

2:27

it is. Also also joining

2:29

us on the show for the very first time

2:32

is host of the Wokie of Daily

2:34

Podcast. He's also co loaves of democracy

2:36

ish, which is a show that

2:38

we here in the far side, Tietnam household,

2:41

regularly listen to. She's so

2:44

delightful on that show. I'm

2:46

just I'm just excited to see what she's gonna

2:48

do on this show. It is so

2:50

wonderful, Danielle Moody. Hey,

2:52

Danielle. Hi. Thank

2:54

you so much for having me. Oh my

2:56

god. So excited to have you here for

2:58

the first time. And before

3:00

we get into it, I just wanna remind listeners,

3:03

a bunch of you have written to me about coming to

3:05

see me perform at the battery in San Francisco.

3:07

It's a member's only show, but I have a handful of tickets

3:09

that could share with fake the nation listeners. And

3:11

so I'm gonna be everyone

3:15

who's able to go is gonna

3:17

know what, like, the

3:19

day there's podcast drops, I think.

3:21

But you still have, like, maybe just

3:23

like that Thursday, you could still

3:26

email me. to get

3:28

into the the

3:30

the lottery of me pulling names

3:32

out and seeing who can come see this show,

3:34

but I would love it if you came And

3:36

of course, let me know if you have a plus one,

3:38

so people have been mostly demoing me on Instagram.

3:41

You can also reach out to me on Patreon, and

3:43

you can also email me through

3:45

my website. Just let me know. It'll be great

3:47

to see you in San Francisco on September twenty

3:49

seventh. I didn't mention that. Alright. let

3:52

us get into it with topic number one.

3:55

So a Texas sheriff

3:58

on Monday open investigation into the

4:00

legality of Ron DeSantis' recent

4:03

move to fly mostly

4:05

dozens of Venezuelan migrants

4:08

to Martha's Vineyard. This has been,

4:10

like, huge news around

4:13

the country. And for some reason, I thought

4:15

it was kinda, like, gonna die down.

4:17

But now this this question

4:19

of whether it was legal for him to do it

4:21

is kind of, like, rearing at Ted

4:23

again. So we decided to talk about it at

4:25

the last minute. He

4:27

so what he did to Santos and this is just I

4:29

don't really look at the actual numbers. It's just

4:31

a it's just an odd shocking.

4:34

I mean, we could talk about inhumane

4:36

as well, but it's just up. Let's just talk

4:38

about it odd in shocking. Just he basically

4:40

paid an aviation company, six hundred and

4:43

fifteen thousand dollars. Now, DeSantis is the governor

4:45

of Florida. Did he pay this aviation

4:47

company, six hundred and fifteen thousand dollars to

4:49

to transport forty eight migrants from

4:51

San Antonio, which is

4:53

in Texas, not in Florida.

4:56

Okay? Two, Massachusetts

4:59

to Martha's Vineyard, which is an island

5:02

that during the summer is very popular,

5:05

and a lot of rich people go there. And in the

5:07

winter, it has twenty thousand residents and

5:09

it's, you know, very small.

5:11

The Republican led Florida

5:14

legislature had actually approved twelve million

5:16

dollars the spring for moving

5:18

migrants out of Florida to other states,

5:21

and that's, you know, and DeSantis is basically

5:23

using that fund. It's

5:26

weird though to move migrants

5:28

from another state to another

5:30

state. Anyway, why?

5:33

Can you guys make sense of any of this for me?

5:35

I'm so baffled. You're

5:38

both are just like aggressively shaking

5:40

your heads in, like, utter, like,

5:43

confusion yourselves. Selena,

5:46

it is so I it's a really

5:48

I I just it's such a

5:50

stunning story and I mean,

5:52

just the like, for brass

5:54

tacks, I'm from Massachusetts originally, and I

5:56

used to play Martha's Vineyard. Our our high school football

5:58

team used to play Martha's Vineyard

5:59

in football. And it's -- Yeah. --

6:02

year round. It's a lot of fishermen. It's

6:04

a lot of cops and firefighters. Like, it is

6:06

a blue coat just like east Hampton

6:08

in the off season and just a cape in,

6:10

you know, like, Okay. If he thinks he's

6:12

sticking it to the elites, like,

6:14

he's absolutely not. He's causing a catastrophe

6:16

in a small island

6:19

island place that doesn't have a ton resources.

6:22

And, yeah, I'm I'm glad you explained the Texas tie

6:24

in because I heard that now Texas

6:27

is seeking, you know, trying to

6:29

investigate the legality and the only legality of

6:31

it. And I was like, why is Texas? I thought

6:33

they flew from Florida, but no no no

6:35

it's just that DeSantis was the architect

6:37

of this. but it was a flight from Texas

6:39

to Massachusetts with no warning.

6:41

Also, have you seen I saw online some

6:43

brochures that were supposedly handed out

6:45

to the immigrants You know, speaking

6:47

to them of job opportunities. I

6:49

mean, it is just unconscionable, like,

6:52

the cruelty. It blows my

6:54

mind. It's so inhumane.

6:56

I can't even get over it.

6:58

Danielle, what's your take?

7:02

It's

7:02

hard to talk about

7:03

desantis

7:06

and not riddle everything that I say

7:08

with curse words. So

7:10

let me try, like, my

7:14

my best. Rhonda

7:16

Santos and

7:16

Greg Abbott are probably

7:17

examples of what

7:20

of the most disgusting vile

7:23

type of human beings that

7:25

you can imagine. The moves that they are

7:27

making are steeped in white supremacy

7:29

and just the desire to

7:31

outbid each other in how evil

7:33

they can be. The anchored

7:35

that I have right now is with the

7:37

way that the media is characterizing

7:40

this story as if it's some type

7:42

of political stunt as opposed to

7:44

human trafficking. because there is absolutely

7:46

no difference between what Abbott

7:48

and DeSantis are doing and what

7:50

coyotes are paid to do when we see

7:52

eighteen wheeler trucks that are opened

7:54

with dead bodies that are inside of

7:56

people that paid thousands of dollars to

7:58

flee the devastation in their homeland

8:01

to seek opportunities in the United

8:03

States. There's no difference here

8:05

except for the exchange of money. But instead

8:07

of taking money from those migrants, what

8:09

Rhonda Santos and Greg Abbott are doing is

8:11

taking money, from their constituents because

8:13

it's tax dollars that are paying

8:15

for the dehumanization of

8:17

these groups of people. And so,

8:20

you know, what I would love is that

8:22

if, you know, people in the media

8:24

discussed this with, like,

8:26

the outrageous audacity and

8:29

cruelty that is intended and

8:31

the actions that they are taking, and that

8:33

we would look at these people and think to

8:35

ourselves, my God, Imagine being so

8:37

desperate to flee your homeland and

8:39

then being met with somebody that was

8:41

paid to dupe you into

8:43

getting onto a charter bus or

8:45

getting onto a lane, and then

8:47

dropping you off in a in a parking lot

8:49

or on a Tarmac, which is what they did

8:51

in Marcus Vineyard. Right? And

8:53

then they had when they were dropped in

8:55

Marcus Vineyard, ended up if you've ever

8:57

flown into there, it's miles

8:59

away from anything, having

9:02

to walk, to find

9:04

help, right, to to find

9:06

aid. And the people of Martha's

9:08

Vineyard are lovely people.

9:10

Right? Who did the right

9:12

thing? Because what Greg Avid and

9:14

Rhonda Santis are hoping for is that all white people

9:16

are evil, that all white people

9:18

side with them and our partners and

9:20

co conspirators in white

9:22

supremacy, and they're not.

9:24

thankfully. Right? But III

9:27

wish that we would talk about this

9:29

as what it is, which is human

9:31

trafficking and exactly why

9:33

the sheriff in Texas is

9:35

looking into investigating what

9:37

type of legal measures

9:41

may have laws may have been

9:43

broken because we know

9:45

that there are laws that were broken.

9:47

Yeah. And also I

9:50

mean, I would say that there's this, like,

9:52

human trafficking caution is very interesting.

9:55

Like, it's, you know, In terms of

9:57

because I was, like, wondering if it was a violation

9:59

of some sort of, like, Geneva Convention.

10:02

Rule rate on

10:04

who on humane behavior, on

10:06

humane treatment. You know, and I think

10:08

they were fed and all of that stuff.

10:10

So, I mean, it's it it probably

10:12

doesn't, like, go to that extreme,

10:15

but it can both be a stunt

10:17

and a potentially illegal crime.

10:19

Like because he got the national attention

10:21

that he wanted, he did get, like, you

10:23

know, a cheer

10:26

at the next political rally that he

10:28

went to for what he did. Like, people

10:30

think it's so great to own the lips

10:32

this way without

10:34

thinking about the actual human lives

10:36

that are involved. He also

10:38

pledged on Friday that

10:41

Florida would continue to bankroll the

10:43

transportation of migrants from

10:45

Texas to sanctuary cities across

10:47

the nation. again, which is like

10:49

if I'm a voter in Florida, I'm

10:51

like, why are we bankrolling?

10:53

Like, is this my taxes?

10:55

Like, what's going on here?

10:57

And I would also, you

11:00

know, I would say that, like,

11:02

I'm not afraid to be a progressive

11:05

Democrat and say, that

11:07

there we have an

11:10

immigration problem problem

11:12

or an immigration

11:15

management problem. Like, I think it's

11:17

okay to say, there's a lot of people coming

11:19

over the border and we're not like,

11:21

I would say we have a management problem. I

11:23

don't think we have problem necessarily

11:25

absorbing these people. I

11:27

do think we're not like handling it

11:29

well. For example, how

11:31

it's possible that this could happen is an example

11:33

of how we're not handling like, well. Right?

11:35

Like, this is somehow allowed to happen.

11:37

I don't know how. And

11:40

that it you know, it's interesting because Eric Adams,

11:42

mayor of New York City, went on like the Sunday

11:44

show saying something like, you know, because they

11:46

had sent busload to people to DC

11:48

in in Chicago, New York. And he

11:50

said, Let's

11:52

coordinate. Like, you know what I mean? Let's this

11:54

should be a national problem. Let's make

11:56

it a national problem. Like,

11:58

maybe there's some industries in

11:59

Idaho in Wyoming, they

12:02

could use a few migrant

12:05

workers that might benefit

12:08

from people who are you know, who want declare

12:10

asylum. By the way, these are people that are trying to,

12:12

you know, declare asylum, which

12:14

is not illegal. So that's

12:16

the other thing is, like, treaty you

12:18

know, these are not stolen ways. These

12:21

are people who are trying to, you know,

12:23

declare asylum. I have

12:25

people in my family that were

12:27

refugees, very sensitive

12:29

to that. They're, you know, these are people that

12:31

are, like, that are so desperate.

12:33

They're escaping a place. and,

12:35

you know, they wanna come somewhere

12:38

legally and they wanna start working and they

12:40

wanna start providing for their families and they wanna be

12:42

productive citizens. And I've talked about

12:44

on this show a million times

12:47

how one immigrant ends up

12:49

creating two jobs and like the

12:51

statistics probably have changed in the

12:53

since I've talked since I first talked about

12:55

it, but but it's something like

12:57

each immigrant more than pays for

12:59

themselves. You know what I mean? So

13:01

this is just ridiculous that

13:04

we don't treat it like we don't all

13:06

work together. We we

13:08

have a huge country. We have a ton

13:10

of land. And we

13:12

have a a lot of jobs that apparently

13:14

like Americans who are already here

13:16

don't wanna do. So,

13:18

like, this could be a

13:20

a great solution for a lot of

13:22

people. And it it's instead, it's it

13:24

is a stunt, and it is potentially

13:27

crime depending on what what they think. I

13:29

don't know any any last thoughts on

13:31

this. I mean, I I would say

13:33

that we have I think

13:35

that the language that you used in terms

13:37

of an immigration management

13:40

problem, but it's a problem of our

13:42

own making. Right? Like, it's a it's a problem

13:44

that again is about

13:46

racism because we have no problem

13:48

with wanting to absorb a hundred

13:50

thousand Ukrainians. who

13:52

were fleeing who were fleeing war. But

13:54

when we were looking at thirteen

13:56

thousand Haitians that were at the border, that

13:58

were also fleeing war, pandemic

14:00

devastation. We had no problem shipping

14:02

those people back to

14:05

back to a horror show. Right?

14:07

In Haiti because of how they looked So,

14:10

like, we we have more than

14:12

the capability to coordinate

14:14

efforts, but that would show that you

14:16

actually cared about human beings and who

14:18

you're deciding is in fact a

14:20

human being, warranting, you know,

14:22

empathy and care. And

14:24

what Abbott and DeSantis are doing

14:26

is showcasing that people of color

14:28

are not worthy of that

14:30

level of humanity, let alone that

14:32

level of thoughtfulness. So, you know,

14:34

there are like, our economy

14:36

is based on immigrants.

14:38

Right? It's based on us and

14:40

not paying people a living wage

14:42

so that we can get goods

14:44

as cheap as possible. Right? from

14:46

our produce to our manufactured goods.

14:49

So the idea that people are, like, they're

14:51

coming to steal our jobs. You ain't working

14:53

those jobs. Right? Like, you don't want them.

14:55

And so I I just think that we

14:57

should be honest about the conversation

14:59

and and and how how

15:01

our immigration system got to the

15:03

place that it and it isn't because we're one of

15:05

the wealthiest nations in the world

15:07

and don't have more than enough and

15:09

aren't abundant enough to be able to provide

15:11

for those that are the least

15:13

among us. It's been out of a lack of

15:15

desire. And then

15:18

my last question on this Selena, do you

15:20

think, like, by the way, like Cubans in

15:22

Florida. And some of

15:24

some of the people coming through are

15:27

Cuban. I would say they're by and large for

15:29

Venezuela. a

15:31

lot of them are Republican.

15:33

Do you think that this could,

15:35

like, possibly backlash

15:37

on DeSantis? Or I

15:39

don't know. I

15:40

mean, I wonder, like, a part of me feels

15:42

like, no, people like a lot of, you know,

15:44

Trump supporters are a cult, and they

15:46

will never back down from

15:48

it. But I do wonder if there are, like,

15:50

some people out there who I

15:52

don't like, just how vivid, like,

15:54

how vivid this is. They like, you see people

15:56

being -- Mhmm. -- sent live

15:58

to promise jobs and opportunity. And these

16:01

are, you know, these are people who just wanna have a

16:03

better life for their family. They wanna make some money.

16:06

And, you know, and for them to be treated this way

16:08

and misled and lie like,

16:10

I hope that there are some people out there who

16:12

were sort of towing the line of

16:14

the right somewhat and now are like, this

16:16

is a bridge too far, you know. I

16:18

mean, I really hope that it

16:20

does hope that it does backfire. And I

16:22

think that the Republicans have done a number of

16:24

things in the past year that I hope

16:26

backfire. You know, I mean, I think they thought Roe v

16:28

Wade would be such a coup and this will

16:30

really win us some people and I think it's lost them

16:32

a ton of people. I mean, I

16:34

think that they're very foolish about how they're

16:36

doing a lot of this stuff and I think they're alienating.

16:39

people who maybe aren't super far right. But,

16:41

you know, when I hate to say, like, a reasonable, but, you

16:43

know, I think they're alienating a lot of people, and I

16:45

don't think they've even I think we'll see

16:47

this in fifty days, and I can't

16:49

wait. It's

16:49

I mean, I love that optimism,

16:52

Selena. Of course, you know why I love that

16:54

optimism. My god. And

16:56

and I wanna say just like

16:59

if if this dentist is listening. I'm not trying to

17:01

give him him and give him any, like, campaign

17:03

pointers here. But I would

17:05

say, as a tactic for

17:07

winning over hearts and minds of

17:09

voters, try being nice

17:12

He's like so

17:15

incredibly not nice and

17:17

it's so weird. Anyway,

17:19

I just feel like being nice.

17:21

Let's see how that works. Like, could

17:23

that be some sort of a policy

17:26

platform that you fuck with? You know what I

17:28

mean? I don't know. I mean, I And

17:30

in the immortal words of the movie roadhouse, I believe

17:32

it's Dalton who says be nice until it's time

17:34

to be not nice, but ideally start with

17:37

being nice. And Certainly, being

17:39

nice. Yeah. God. That's what falls

17:41

on the money, you know. Alright. Well, you

17:43

know what? Let's take a quick break. And when we come

17:45

back, we'll continue chatting.

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Today show

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And we are back, and we're ready for topic

21:23

number two. To Yvonne

21:25

Shulie now, the I'm probably I don't know

21:27

how to pronounce his name, founded Patagonia in

21:30

nineteen seventy three an outdoor apparel company

21:32

that you'll be deeply surprised to know I've

21:34

never shopped at. Despite

21:36

never having attracted my

21:38

clientage, It did, in fact, go on to be a

21:40

multi billion dollar company. And now,

21:42

Joey now has pledged to give

21:44

away the three billion dollar his three

21:46

billion dollars in private to a nonprofit that'll flight climate

21:49

change. Now, there might be a

21:51

catch or two along the way, but before we

21:53

get into all of that, what

21:55

did you think when you first heard the news? because

21:57

I feel like the New York Times had this sort of glowing

21:59

headline, a triumphant photo,

22:02

and all that stuff. So and my first thoughts

22:04

were just like, that's awesome.

22:06

Yeah. Give that money to climate change.

22:08

But where were you

22:10

guys at, Danielle? I was like,

22:12

oh my god. There are actually good

22:15

billionaires somewhere, like, how

22:17

nice, you know, to not just want to

22:19

continue to incur and amass all

22:21

of this obnoxious amount of wealth

22:23

and not find a way to use it

22:25

for the greater good. And

22:27

being is how we don't spend

22:29

billions of dollars trying to fight climate

22:31

change. In this country, it's nice

22:33

that somebody is willing to use their

22:35

money to do something other than,

22:37

you know, a dick measuring competition

22:39

into outer space. Like, maybe, you

22:41

know, maybe using your abilities for

22:43

that. Right. To actually

22:45

solve problems on this planet instead of trying

22:47

to get off it would be awesome.

22:50

Yes. Absolutely not.

22:52

Danielle, I agree wholeheartedly. And

22:55

and, yeah, my I mean, my initial thing and I

22:57

think sometimes, I think, yeah,

22:59

I'm very I

23:00

think not that

23:01

I'm like naive, but I think that, you know,

23:03

my initial instinct, yeah, was just to take this

23:05

in good faith. And, you know, I was really struck by

23:07

the fact that you know,

23:09

this guy not ostentatious with his money. He

23:12

drives a Subaru. He wears

23:14

sort of average clothing

23:16

And, you know, and he's not bouncing around at, you

23:19

know, society balls in New York. Like,

23:21

he just he loves nature in the outdoors,

23:23

and this seemed like a a totally

23:25

logical extension of that. And, yeah, a

23:27

great way to prioritize the environment in a

23:29

way that many nations are not

23:31

doing. But then, of course, yeah,

23:33

I mean, there's Adam Conover. Oh,

23:35

god. Like, he I he's I love, like

23:37

but he's so, you know, I mean, Adam ruins everything,

23:39

and he he would really point it out, like,

23:41

wait wait wait. Is this just a big

23:43

tax scheme effectively? Right.

23:45

And so that's like the there

23:48

we we read a piece in courts that said

23:50

it's a it's a masterful bit of

23:52

corporate maneuvering that'll allow his

23:54

family to effectively maintain control of

23:57

Patagonia, direct billions towards climate

23:59

change advocacy, and almost

24:01

entirely avoid taxes in

24:03

the process And I guess

24:05

in in that, when you're looking at

24:07

that way, might make this seem a little less

24:09

altruistic to you. Because

24:12

the other thing that kinda

24:14

came out while when this story came

24:16

out is that there's another billionaire

24:20

named BearSide

24:23

BearSade or something who

24:25

used a similar tactic. He donated his

24:27

entire company, TripLight,

24:29

which is a tech company to a

24:32

nonprofit aimed at conservative political

24:34

advocacy, including opposing

24:36

climate advocacy efforts. which

24:38

I thought was hilarious. Maybe

24:41

the two billion the

24:43

two sets of billions will cancel

24:45

each other out. But do you

24:48

I mean, So, I guess, this so

24:50

this is my question. Like, we're

24:52

sort of, like, on the space of it

24:54

okay with this guy. giving as

24:56

billions to climate change advocacy because we

24:58

believe in doing that on preventing

25:01

climate change and on bettering

25:03

the environment Right? And

25:05

so we so we're willing to log this guy.

25:09

And is it okay that he's

25:11

now avoiding taxes? because

25:14

the money is going to something good.

25:16

And is it then okay,

25:18

you know, for this other billionaire

25:20

to give his money to the exact

25:23

opposite? I mean, these didn't

25:25

do whatever they want with their money. Right?

25:27

Like, that's that's the that's the glorious

25:29

nature about being a billionaire in

25:32

America is that we have tax laws set

25:34

up so that they can fit their entire fucking

25:36

bodies through them. Right? Like, they don't

25:39

these people it it it there is no, I I

25:41

think, such thing as pure

25:45

altruism. Right? Like, everyone somewhere

25:47

is going to benefit in

25:49

some way. And so for me, it's like, am

25:51

I going to boohoo this man

25:53

who probably hadn't been paying taxes

25:55

all this time? to amass that

25:57

amount of money that he's able to give away

25:59

to climate change? No, I'm not. Because

26:02

no one else is apparently

26:04

putting targeted resources in the way

26:06

that they need to be prevent, you know,

26:08

to help prevent the catastrophes that

26:10

we see unfold. Now

26:13

literally every few weeks Every

26:15

few weeks, there is a

26:17

island, a nation that is underwater

26:19

or on fire. Right? Like,

26:21

this is this is regular, like,

26:24

commentary in the news. And so if he

26:26

is wanting to to to I

26:28

hope that it's not just a, you know,

26:31

a photo op that

26:33

money actually will be directed

26:35

towards that. But I mean, for us to

26:37

think that these people haven't been

26:39

getting away and getting off with

26:41

not paying taxes, I mean, like, it

26:42

it

26:43

the taxes

26:44

are for middle class and

26:46

the poor to pay. That's, like, that's

26:48

that's it. That's how that's how our tax

26:50

structure is set up. Okay.

26:52

So

26:53

Selena, let's say you're a

26:56

billionaire and you actually

26:58

hired. Let's just begin You

27:00

have the option

27:03

of doing something like this where you

27:05

direct where the money goes

27:07

or you believe in your or

27:09

do you believe in your ethical responsibility to

27:11

just pay a huge tax on

27:14

it? An estate tax?

27:16

Yeah. One hundred fifty fifty percent

27:18

and you don't know where that money's

27:20

gonna go. You do

27:22

you believe in the government

27:25

as good shepherd of your

27:27

funds. I mean, I

27:28

do think it is more powerful if

27:31

you can do it yourself because

27:33

they were seeing in the Times article just that,

27:35

like, you know, he'd sought out a

27:37

number of different options of,

27:39

like, he could take the company public, which I think a lot of companies

27:41

do and it's not always

27:42

their best decision, especially

27:44

for the workers.

27:45

ah But,

27:46

you know, that he sort of sucks out that this

27:49

would be the one where he could still sort of

27:51

control what was happening. But,

27:53

yeah, not just be handing it

27:55

over to the government in the form of taxes. I mean, I think, you know,

27:57

certainly, the system is

27:59

broken,

27:59

but

27:59

I don't know, from my

28:00

perspective, I feel like I

28:03

need to

28:04

just like, function in the world. I need to try

28:07

to not be I just can't I need

28:09

to sometimes reject the cynicism of,

28:11

like, oh, another you

28:13

know, like, this isn't tax shelter scheme.

28:15

Like, I don't know, he seems like a man who

28:17

loves nature and his whole, you

28:19

know, consistently throughout his life. It's all

28:21

been about introducing people to nature,

28:23

having nature be accessible, great products

28:25

to go out in nature. I mean, it's not some it's

28:27

not crummy clothes. Like, it's really solid

28:29

stuff if you wanna go. hiking.

28:32

So

28:33

but I do think yeah. I mean, it's an ethical

28:35

quandary of yeah. Like and we will

28:37

never know if, like, this is, you know, just truly he

28:39

thinks this is the best way to do it or if,

28:42

yeah, this is I mean, and maybe it's somewhere in

28:44

the middle. I don't know. I but I

28:46

tried it. It's, like, it's interesting because it's, like,

28:48

I don't problem with their be

28:50

being some sort of, like, a

28:52

chair

28:52

you know, a charitable write

28:55

off for your for your

28:59

estate where you can

29:01

direct a shitload of money.

29:03

But I also think that

29:05

you you should you have benefited from

29:07

the government's functioning. And that's

29:09

how you became that's that's a

29:11

big part of why you became a billionaire.

29:14

You know? So now is not

29:16

the time to be like, and now I'm cutting you

29:18

out of my will government. You know,

29:20

like, you know, I I

29:22

just I mean, That's

29:24

not how this thing is worked. This

29:26

thing you've been able to drive on the roads

29:28

and go into the state parks that have given

29:30

you the inspiration for your clothes.

29:33

And you know what I mean? You've been able

29:35

to utilize the

29:37

the the fiber optics

29:39

and the electricity and all of this stuff.

29:41

This is all social contract

29:44

basic stuff. Government is

29:46

not trying to take your

29:48

money and then fucking shit

29:50

on it. Like, that's not what's happening. You know

29:52

what I mean? We sometimes think of that.

29:54

We sometimes think a lot of the guys taking my money. And

29:56

it's like, yeah. They're fucking taking your money because who

29:58

was gonna pick up who was gonna deal with sewage

30:00

treatment plant. Exactly. Okay.

30:03

that stop sign? Yeah. You can't stop

30:05

it. Exactly. I enjoyed the

30:07

stop sign. so

30:09

it's like, I think billionaires, these

30:11

are such vast sums. We

30:13

can make it so that they can feel like

30:15

their states are going to a thing that

30:18

directed where they loved the thing

30:20

that it's going to. And it's

30:22

like they made the Phil Harmonic

30:24

survive for, like, fifteen years past

30:26

their death because of their great the

30:28

fuck that thing is and

30:30

they can pay taxes. It is not all

30:32

or nothing. We can have a

30:35

system that doesn't have such a

30:37

loophole as Danielle put it where they could

30:39

fit their whole body through these

30:41

loopholes. And we don't have to

30:43

like, I don't know. It just guys, let's this

30:45

is a let's be reasonable form

30:47

of government governance that I'm

30:49

like advocating. And I don't

30:51

know who's with me let's

30:53

all vote in fucking November. Mhmm.

30:57

But folks, let me know.

30:59

What would you do with a three billion

31:01

dollar fortune wanna

31:03

have the do you wanna be able to, like,

31:05

control every blast sent? Do

31:07

you wanna be a part of the great

31:09

taxation that that we should be proud

31:11

to give tax to our public

31:14

services. What do you want? That was

31:16

obviously a leading question. Okay.

31:18

Let us move on. to topic number

31:20

three. So special thanks

31:22

to one of our listeners, Dara, who

31:24

sent me this piece. I love it when you all

31:26

give me topic ideas, so keep

31:28

them coming, but she'd sent a piece in Huffington

31:30

Post by Louise Slice. With

31:32

the headline, a stranger asked me if I felt

31:34

like less of a woman because I

31:37

don't have children. Now, this issue has come

31:39

up on their show before sort of ten gently

31:41

when we've discussed other family issues, but I felt like

31:43

this piece was a good opportunity for us to

31:45

take it head on. So

31:47

first, do you have

31:49

kids? And like, what is your relationship with

31:51

this question? Danielle?

31:53

I do not have kids.

31:56

I don't plan on having kids,

31:58

and I believe

31:59

that I still function as a

32:02

full fledged woman

32:03

man

32:04

without having. I don't I

32:06

don't think that kids make you more

32:08

of a woman or less of a woman. So

32:11

my

32:12

thought thought.

32:13

Yeah. Selena. Oh,

32:16

same boat as Danielle. I don't

32:19

have children. I've known my whole life.

32:21

I didn't ever wanna have children.

32:23

You know, when I was like dating in my early

32:25

twenties, I was very upfront with that on a first

32:27

date. I used to put it on my dating profiles. Like,

32:29

if you want kids, I'm not your gal.

32:31

And and, yeah, I mean,

32:33

I I this this article really

32:36

resonated with me because, gosh, I mean, I

32:38

remember having coworkers when I

32:40

would tell that to them. Some of them said would say, it's

32:42

a phase or like you'll grow out a bit or,

32:44

yeah, like, who will bury you

32:46

someday or, like, but then your life has no

32:48

meaning or, you know, the point

32:50

of, like, God wants you to have children. Yeah.

32:52

I mean, I feel like I've been taking it the

32:54

chin. And and, you know, I mean, over time, you

32:56

just get used to it. But it's real I mean, I

32:58

love this piece so much I

33:00

just it's, you know, addresses the audacity of anyone to

33:03

ask such a personal question.

33:05

And to not know, maybe you're

33:07

trying to get and it's heartbreaking, you know? Like

33:09

or, I mean, I had some good friends when I was

33:11

in my late twenties who were in their early

33:14

forties, and they really wanted to

33:16

have children, but they hadn't found a partner. And so being asked these questions

33:18

was so hurtful. It's just it's

33:21

so

33:21

bonkers to me that there is some people

33:23

who assume that, like, Everyone on

33:25

this world wants the same lifestyle and

33:27

that's to have kids. You know, I mean, there's

33:29

a million ways to live for

33:32

me, the best way for me is not to have kids, but

33:34

I don't know, you know, I would never presume to

33:36

know the best way for anyone else, you know.

33:39

You know? I I just wanna say something real quick. The other

33:41

day, I was out with my

33:43

girlfriend. And we had decided to,

33:45

like, randomly, you know, go

33:47

to brunch midday, like,

33:49

whatever no. No. No. I'm sorry. We had

33:51

gone out the night before, gone

33:53

to dinner, then decided to go dancing

33:55

and, you know, and came home in

33:58

the next day, we're going to brunch. And she said to me,

34:00

you know, midway through,

34:02

this thought popped into my head where I was just

34:04

like, I'm so happy. I don't have

34:06

kids. And I said, why is and I and

34:08

I I started I laughed, but I

34:10

was just like, yeah. It is

34:12

such like, there are times when I many

34:16

times. when I walk into my apartment after, like, a long

34:18

day or, like, wake up at ten o'clock

34:20

on a Saturday and I say to myself,

34:23

my god, I feel so grateful that I

34:26

don't have kids, that I'm not

34:28

like juggling the end of the world, and

34:30

then having to manage a

34:32

little people's personalities that are not even formed yet. Right?

34:34

Like, I I think that the the

34:36

other side the other flip side is that we

34:38

just don't

34:40

celebrate people's we don't celebrate people's choices.

34:42

We want them to conform. And your

34:44

choice, somehow, not to have kids,

34:47

means that maybe I made a bad choice if I did

34:49

decide to have kids. And like, what does that say about me?

34:52

So I just like, you know, I'm like,

34:54

I wish that

34:56

we could honestly say, like, yeah, some days I

34:58

wake up a lot of days, and I'm like, I'm

35:00

really happy. I don't have children. Mhmm.

35:02

And like and that

35:04

be okay. that also get

35:06

applause as, oh, I'm

35:08

pregnant.

35:08

the

35:09

Mhmm. I so my reaction to this was,

35:11

well, first of all, I'm

35:13

just I person who said, does that make you

35:15

feel like less of a

35:18

woman is crazy? Like, I don't

35:22

I I like, in my life, in in many years that I didn't

35:24

have children, I have

35:26

one kid.

35:28

No one ever said less of a woman

35:31

just a crazy thing that I think it's like crazy and

35:33

it feels like an outlier. A lot of people said

35:35

a lot of things to me, but like that

35:37

was never one of them. they would

35:39

say, oh, you'll regret it or oh,

35:42

you'll, you know, it the you

35:44

know, oh, it's a phase. Like, that kind of thing was pretty

35:47

common. Less of a

35:49

woman just it is is

35:51

so it's so insulting and

35:53

just like awful. But

35:56

but but in general, you do get you do a list of

35:58

a lot of comments, I think.

36:00

My first thought was,

36:02

oh my god. If this

36:04

piece was written in Iran, it

36:07

wouldn't be a piece because wouldn't

36:09

I mean, a, because I have no rights in

36:11

the Islamic Republic of Iran as we can see right now

36:13

by everything that's happening there, my thoughts

36:16

go out. to my my cousins,

36:18

shit, my my family.

36:21

But but I

36:24

but the reason why this kind of thing what is wouldn't be a piece

36:26

is because this kind of

36:28

question is not personal.

36:32

Right? Like, nothing is personal. Like, it's we just

36:34

have so much like, I just have,

36:36

like, Iranian women coming up to me

36:38

and just

36:40

saying, like, you know, oh, did your boobs get, like,

36:42

bigger? What since you had since

36:44

you had a baby? Or they just stayed bigger? Or

36:46

what's going on with your boobs? Like,

36:48

there's no personal,

36:50

like, nothing is. Like, you can just say

36:52

shit to a person. It's so

36:55

much more There's no I

36:57

there's no concept of, like, personal space or

36:59

that's inappropriate, like, with certain

37:02

stuff like that.

37:04

And I you

37:06

know, with with the Ronnie women, like, I only

37:08

have one kid, and they're just like, oh, you

37:10

need to have another one though. You can't just

37:13

have one. you know what I mean? They need to have a brother or sister or

37:15

whatever. And I'm like, alright. Well, you know,

37:17

in it and as opposed

37:19

to, like, getting annoyed, I just think, like, this

37:21

is so fun. This cultural thing

37:23

is so funny to me that they just, like, walk

37:26

around saying stuff like that. And if they set it

37:28

to like, you know, like

37:30

a wasp b person, that

37:32

person would faint. Like, if any of this stuff, but Ronnie

37:34

and aunties were saying to me, they

37:36

were, like, just straight up faint. And

37:38

so part of it is, I

37:40

I wonder because

37:42

we are such a great and

37:44

vast melting pot, we're we

37:47

sort of are, like, not understanding

37:49

the other people's under understanding

37:52

of what personal means. You know

37:54

what I mean? So there there was

37:56

that. And then also, my thought was in

37:59

defense of all the moms who've see a

38:01

single woman or sorry, not a single woman. A

38:03

childless woman and then go, oh, do

38:05

you have kids? Oh, you

38:07

should or whatever? I

38:09

think like this thing happens when

38:12

you have a kid, which is

38:14

that you just sort of like want

38:16

everyone in on the action.

38:18

And it's like hormonal.

38:20

It, like, takes over your brain.

38:22

And so when I see my

38:24

male friends or my female friends,

38:26

without kids might I don't I try not to say anything. But in the off

38:28

chance that it slips out of my

38:31

mouth, it's only really

38:34

because Honestly, I'm I'm wondering has

38:36

it slipped out of my mouth. I'm not sure. It's only

38:38

maybe because I just want my

38:40

cool friends to then make cool

38:43

people. Like, that's kind of it's

38:45

just that. It's just the kinda, like,

38:47

I just wanna see more

38:50

of you in smaller forms. Like, you know, I don't

38:52

know. And and it's like

38:54

it's not it's not

38:56

a a judgment in

38:58

any way. it more than more it's more just

39:00

like, oh, but you're great.

39:02

Like,

39:02

let's have more of this great thing,

39:04

you know. And I

39:05

don't know. So I

39:08

think that I guess, yeah. I mean, part

39:10

of the role of a think piece is just

39:12

to be really judgmental,

39:14

and I get that. And

39:17

part of the role of a personal essay is to just

39:19

say, like, this is how this thing made me feel

39:21

in that moment. And

39:24

I think part of the role of

39:26

a podcaster is

39:28

is to just is to poke some holes

39:30

and just say, like, what

39:32

if they what if they, like,

39:35

literally meanwhile? What if it's a compliment? You know

39:37

what I mean? I get that. I mean

39:39

and I do I

39:40

do think, like, the world is a nicer

39:43

place if you kind of try to, like, always have

39:45

some grace for people or or always assume

39:47

positive intent. You know? And and I know, yeah, like, I had

39:49

a friend who wants to me, you know, when I was

39:51

like, I don't ever wanna have kids, he was like, oh, I

39:54

just think he'd be such a cool mom. He'd

39:56

be really caring and thoughtful. And and

39:58

you know, I thought that was a really

39:59

kind way to say that, you know, like, I didn't find it annoying.

40:02

But, you know, and I and I

40:04

was like, well,

40:04

there are many ways to be thought

40:07

goal and nurturing to your friends and to my

40:09

nieces and nephews. And but, yeah,

40:11

I think it can be helpful to try to you

40:14

know, I mean, unless someone is really on your

40:16

nerves or you're in a mood. But like,

40:18

you know, just to try to be like, okay, you don't

40:20

know me. And I know you're you're like

40:22

you're saying

40:24

this, but yeah, that just that maybe it yet doesn't come from a place of

40:26

malice or know it all, you

40:28

know, but from a place of like, oh, I have a great

40:30

experience, and I think you might

40:32

too. But but it is such a

40:34

it is such a personal thing. You know, I I

40:36

when when people say that because I've had

40:38

the same type of and I

40:41

I consider it a backhanded compliment. Right? Because

40:43

it is still trying to push

40:45

you into, you know, into becoming

40:47

a parent in some type of way, but it's using

40:49

a compliment and dead. And I think that,

40:51

you know, I joke and but many of my friends who are

40:54

mothers, like, there is a

40:56

mommy mafia. there

40:58

is this desire that, like, I have, you know,

41:01

sometimes, unwillingly signed up to

41:03

be a part of this, like,

41:05

group and this on played and I

41:07

just want more of the people who are in my life who I love

41:09

and who knew me before I was a mom

41:11

to, like, participate in this

41:13

space with me.

41:16

You know, and I think that that like, I

41:18

I get it. I just, you know,

41:20

I don't think that there is even

41:23

in, like, our culture. Like, you

41:25

were comparing, you know, Iran. And

41:27

I'm just like, people are

41:29

rude as hell. at people's weddings, the first thing that people

41:31

the first thing that people say is when are you gonna have

41:34

kids? It's like I literally

41:36

just put this ring on

41:38

my finger. And like your

41:40

immediate question following the

41:42

i do's at somebody's wedding regardless

41:44

of their ethnicity or culture is when

41:46

are you gonna start having kids? Right? And

41:48

it's the same question. I'm clear. It's

41:51

the same question. Right? That is

41:53

that is asked of straight of

41:56

straight people that is now asked of queer people, write the

41:58

assumption that everyone just wants to, like,

41:59

go forward and multiply.

42:02

Mhmm. And so I just I don't think that

42:04

it is a real

42:06

the the personal

42:07

and the and bodily

42:09

autonomy is just not respected.

42:12

Right. And it has and has honestly

42:14

never been respected.

42:16

We just we still don't ask men

42:18

and people that identify

42:20

as men those questions anytime

42:22

that we see a single you

42:25

know, childless man, we're not saying, he would be such

42:27

a good father. When are you

42:29

gonna have kids? We don't

42:31

ask those questions.

42:34

Mhmm. My although I have been

42:36

the woman at a gay wedding. That's

42:39

that's a question. Shout

42:42

out to my buddy, Arvind. But

42:45

yeah. I was like, so you guys gonna

42:47

do have kids or what's going

42:50

on? like, literally. Everyone

42:52

I mean, hopefully, I mean, he's, like, one of my

42:54

best friends forever, so it's, like, fine. But anyway,

42:56

it's, like, go ahead, Selena.

42:59

0II mean, yeah, was it was it Matt was was

43:01

it Matt Gates at who was, like,

43:03

you know, made some comment in the past

43:05

few months about, like, these sad

43:08

cat women single childless tell you.

43:10

And isn't he single and child you know,

43:12

it's like, wow. He is the

43:14

traffic teenagers. We're gonna have sex with

43:16

him. So let's just got you

43:18

out. Exactly. I mean but,

43:20

yeah, just this, you know, sort of demonization of

43:22

single woman whereas a single man, he's a

43:24

rolling stone man, a cake can be tied down.

43:26

You guys do a lot some days. Can you

43:28

swim at us? Like, it's

43:30

so oh, it's so obnoxious.

43:32

Well, and also that listener

43:34

pointed out that it's not it's, you

43:36

know, she's actually a doula, so that's

43:38

I think also really interesting. And a

43:40

lot of my friends who don't

43:42

have kids, you know, one of them

43:44

teaches kids. Right? As a

43:46

teacher and

43:48

is so, like, it's it's not it's funny because it's not even that they're not

43:50

great with kids or have jobs

43:53

that, like, directly involved children.

43:56

You know what I mean? And that might even

43:58

be it. They just kinda get their fill

44:00

from doing that kind of work.

44:03

and then they don't, like, need to bring it home

44:05

-- Mhmm. -- in in with

44:07

the, like, exactly the the terrifying

44:10

personalities that have not even yet

44:12

been formed. So I I think that's the other

44:14

odd thing about

44:16

about the, you know, a

44:19

be know but people who don't have

44:21

them. Some of them are terrific with kids and

44:23

have kids in their lives all day

44:25

long. Mhmm. Yeah. I mean, I was

44:27

a former early childhood educator,

44:30

and I will tell you that,

44:32

like, if you are a teacher,

44:36

likely that

44:38

you it put expend all your energy into your students,

44:40

into your classroom. It's not uncommon for

44:42

people to then be like, yeah, I

44:45

don't wanna have kids. because I

44:47

deal with all your kids

44:48

every day. Mhmm.

44:49

Right. Right. Right. Okay.

44:52

Well, folks, let me know.

44:54

Check check out the piece. It was it was a

44:56

good read and and

44:58

and and definitely food for thought. Folks,

45:01

That is the end of the

45:04

show. I first of all,

45:06

thank you for making me feel just

45:08

good. Chadning

45:10

it out, always makes

45:12

me feel better about everything.

45:14

So thanks for doing that. I'm being so

45:16

delightful, and I would love for the people of Vacation to be able

45:18

to fall you and all of the wonderful things

45:20

you do, Danielle Moody. Where did they do that? Yeah. You can follow me

45:22

on Twitter and on Instagram at d

45:26

two SENSE, DEETW0CENTS and

45:28

I'm on TikTok at danielle

45:30

moody underscore and subscribe to

45:32

my shows, Wokay, f and

45:34

democracy ish. Selena,

45:36

where do people

45:39

follow you? Yes. I'm on Twitter

45:40

and Instagram just my regular old

45:43

Selena cop That's SELENAC0PP0CK

45:46

And then, yeah, Twitter and Insta, NYTV0WS

45:49

where I poke fun

45:52

at the Time's wedding culture, all that fun stuff. And then,

45:54

yes, this fall, I'll be get coming

45:56

back from a brief

45:58

August. I took the month off, but now I'm coming back

45:59

with two at

46:02

minimum. fresh episodes, we're talking about autumnal candles, and I'm

46:04

very excited. So two week minimum, wherever

46:06

you get your podcast. So

46:08

siding, two week minimum

46:10

should be on everybody's feed. And folks,

46:12

you know where to find me in all the things that

46:14

I do. I may be coming to a city near

46:16

you. We're going to places like

46:19

Austin and Ann

46:22

Arbor and Kalamazoo on the Wait

46:24

Wait. Don't tell me stand up tour, so

46:26

please check that out. And I'm

46:28

gonna be on a wait wait. Don't tell me this week

46:30

on on the panel. So

46:32

be sure to listen

46:34

for that. And

46:36

and again, don't forget to send

46:38

me your info if you're in the Bay Area. And when it

46:40

comes to me on September 27th, doing my

46:42

show, comedy from her mouth

46:44

hole. And I would love to

46:46

thank all of the people that make this show a possibility. That's our wonderful producer, Andrew

46:48

Maguire, our fantastic audio engineers,

46:50

Stephanie Aguilar, and everyone

46:52

at headcount who's

46:54

just so lovely. Oh, and, you know, who made it possible for us

46:56

to be nominated for a People's Choice

46:59

Podcast Award at so

47:02

I'm so honored. And,

47:05

you know, you can send us your

47:07

emails at take the nation had come

47:09

com with segment ideas and panelist

47:12

ideas and keep the

47:14

races to watch coming in. That's

47:16

the electoral contest. to watch. And,

47:18

you know, we will be

47:20

back at your earballs next

47:24

week.

47:31

That was

47:33

a head

47:36

down podcast.