0:05

Here's the question. Has

0:07

Hillsong changed, Has it listened

0:10

to critics, has it listened

0:12

to people like me? I left

0:14

Hillsong two years ago. I started

0:16

working on this series more than a year ago,

0:19

and now I know a whole lot more. In

0:22

the past seven episodes of False Prophets,

0:25

we've heard stories of all kinds of abuse,

0:28

spiritual, sexual, and economic.

0:31

The Hillsong I knew did not challenge

0:33

abuse of behavior by star preachers

0:36

instead of protected the brand. I'm

0:40

no Emmy would ebit. And this is the final

0:42

episode of False Prophets, and I'm asking

0:45

can there be justice? It's

0:51

a Sunday, which means

0:54

that today Hillsong

0:57

had their service. And I

1:01

don't feel like I owe the bunny

1:03

thing. I don't feel weird being here anymore.

1:08

This is the Boston Commons, the park where

1:10

I took my dog Teddy. We're

1:13

not far from Royale, the nightclub

1:15

that gets transformed into Hillsong Church

1:18

every week. After leaving

1:20

the church, for some time, I wouldn't

1:23

go out. I was living outside of the city and

1:27

I would get panic attacks if I ran into

1:30

someone, and I

1:32

wanted it to be my home again and

1:35

not feel like I was invading

1:37

a place, or I was out of place, and

1:40

so I moved into the city, into the Back

1:42

Bay area, close to

1:44

this park. And I've

1:47

been here for a year

1:50

or so, and honestly,

1:53

now I feel so much more

1:55

confidence to just walk on the street.

1:58

And now I'm able to contin They need

2:00

to live in the city knowing that

2:03

Hillsong Church is still here. You

2:06

know, my hope speaking out is that they

2:09

will cease to exist as a church

2:11

organization. But for now,

2:15

for now Boston is my city again. I

2:18

can enjoy life. Hillsong

2:33

has made it clear they are not

2:35

prepared to engage with people who want it to

2:38

close down, and they won't discuss

2:40

individual grievances. Hillsong

2:43

needs to face a simple fact. When

2:45

people get hurt by religion, there's

2:47

no quick fix. The church

2:50

wants to move on. Brian Houston

2:52

is out, a new leadership is in, but

2:55

that's not the end for many of us. Trauma

2:58

stays with you. I'm

3:01

going to go back to a guy named Andrew to

3:03

help you understand. In March

3:05

of twenty twenty two, and media

3:08

reports of Brian Houston's stepping

3:11

down from church, those media

3:13

reports created a setup

3:15

in so many different ways for my body

3:18

to relive exactly what it was

3:21

like at twenty to come out and

3:23

lose everything. It's nearly twenty

3:26

years since Andrew was shamed, tormented,

3:28

and rejected when he came out as a gay man

3:31

in Hillsong. He's built a successful

3:33

and happy life since then. But

3:36

when Hillsong scandals hit the news headlines,

3:39

the past came flooding back. My

3:41

body felt like a prison. I

3:44

had rashes all over my feet, a

3:47

rash all over my face. My

3:49

body became inflamed.

3:52

My chest felt like

3:54

it had metal wire trapping it. And

3:58

it is astounding to me that

4:01

after all of these years, my

4:04

buddy is remembering that

4:07

isolation, that threat to my

4:10

existence. I can

4:12

see why some people

4:14

have not been able to survive these experiences.

4:17

Andrew never had an apology from Hillsong,

4:20

and I don't think he ever will. We

4:23

asked Hillsong to respond to the issues

4:25

raised in this series. So

4:27

far, Hillsong has decided not

4:30

to respond on the record or on tape.

4:33

The church wants to tell a story of renewal

4:36

and change, but for me, renew

4:39

means a lot of hard work. Healing

4:41

takes time, and it comes at a

4:44

financial cost. You

4:47

can't talk about Hillsong for long without bringing

4:50

up money because it's obviously a really

4:52

big issue. And if

4:54

I could, I would definitely submit

4:57

an invoice for a refund

4:59

for all the day images and all of the

5:02

work and free labor that I gave. That

5:05

would be amazing. I would definitely get a lot

5:07

of money back. So I

5:09

did put together an Excel spreadsheet

5:12

with all my costs, and so

5:14

I like to now jokingly say that

5:16

it's my invoice for that one year

5:19

that I spent recovering from

5:22

being at Hillsong, Texas

5:26

twenty twenty medical expenses here

5:28

we go. So I

5:31

divided it between medical expenses

5:34

and ESA expenses because Teddy

5:36

at the time was my emotional support animal.

5:39

Just for Teddy. The

5:41

grand total was one thousand,

5:44

seven hundred and fifty six with sixteen

5:47

cents and for medical

5:50

cost this included just

5:52

regular PCP visits, and I needed

5:55

more than the usual in going

5:57

to my psychiatric doctor, going

6:00

to my therapist, dental.

6:03

A lot of people don't talk about this, but mental

6:06

health can really affect your teeth with

6:08

grinding and your gums swell.

6:11

It could be pretty dangerous. I had to get

6:14

a lot of work done, and I still go every

6:16

three months. The usual is every

6:18

six months, so I actually have a

6:21

lot of costs that add up there. So

6:23

with all of that together in twenty

6:25

twenty added to two thousand, five

6:28

hundred and six dollars with fifty

6:30

seven cents, And honestly, that

6:33

seems really low to me because I had

6:35

a good insurance that year, luckily, and

6:38

it covered a good portion, but I

6:40

still had to pay twenty

6:42

five hundred dollars out of pocket.

6:47

Twenty five hundred dollars is a lot to me,

6:50

It probably wasn't a lot to some of

6:52

the Hillsong pastors. Remember

6:55

we reported Hillsong pastor Carl

6:57

Lentz in New York was happy to blow

6:59

five thousand dollars on a dinner

7:01

with celebrities. But for people

7:03

like me, a financial reckoning is

7:05

probably not going to happen. No

7:08

one's going to get their tides back, are they or

7:10

get help with therapy. But

7:12

a simple acknowledgement of the past might

7:15

be a start, because I

7:17

don't see how Hillsong can fix things until

7:19

it owns its past. Smoke

7:22

and smoking

7:25

beers. The

7:28

track is Gritten and performed by my friend

7:30

Janice Legata it's called

7:32

Disneylands. It's

7:37

all about her Hillsong experience. You

7:41

don't have to believe to just

7:44

drinking deep and don't forget to

7:47

sing were Janice

7:50

isn't hopeful that Hillsong will change, so

7:54

she keeps on using her

7:56

music, her blogs, her podcasts,

7:58

and her videos to call out mega church

8:00

culture. You

8:05

can here. So

8:16

in the beginning, it would have been enough for it to just

8:19

just go out of business, But

8:22

now it doesn't help

8:25

as much as I would like. Because of every Hillsong campus

8:27

closed tomorrow and they were just gone,

8:30

probably eighty percent of those people would

8:32

just gravitate to the next mega church

8:35

like I'm not special. There are a thousand

8:38

means Hill Songs not special. There are a thousand

8:40

hill Songs like it's it's the system.

8:43

We need to see the system kind

8:45

of face justice. The leadership

8:47

of Hillsong. Those people should have to account

8:50

for what they did and offer

8:53

true repentance and again

8:55

reparation. But you know, so

8:57

far a lot of these people, these

9:00

bad actors Carl Lentz include

9:02

it, right, They kind of have

9:04

their moment, oh I'm

9:06

no longer in Hillsong, and then they

9:09

they just disappear and they go off and they continue

9:11

living off of the money of the people they

9:14

abused. Legally, Yeah,

9:17

there's very little at this point they could

9:19

be done to make them pay up. But

9:21

you know, if they want to keep moving from

9:24

church to church, or they want to keep existing,

9:26

I think it's just to keep shouting, well,

9:28

hey what about these people

9:30

over here. Hopefully people

9:32

just see how they're treating the people who have left,

9:35

and just see how they're not willing to help

9:37

people heal. Hopefully, as more

9:39

people see that, you know, if you want

9:41

to stay in Hillsong, stay but

9:44

stop giving your money. Some people

9:46

have stopped going and some people have

9:48

stopped giving. Hillsong

9:50

finances have taken a hit. COVID

9:53

has been a big factor. The

9:56

annual report for Hillsong in Australia

9:58

shows revenues was more

10:00

than twelve percent in twenty twenty one.

10:03

But here's the thing. Hillsong

10:05

is being replicated by other churches and

10:08

the Fallen Stars. There's always

10:10

a shout at Redemption and Hillsong

10:12

Church itself. They didn't want

10:14

to talk on the record, but this is what we know.

10:17

They're working to promote the message

10:19

that it's a church again, it's not a corporation.

10:22

That the message is about God and

10:25

that God is cleaning out the church. This

10:28

is l Hardy, the journalist has been with

10:30

me throughout the series. I've spoken to

10:32

people close to the new Hillsong Board and

10:35

they believe that they've implemented

10:37

a new culture and that they're putting in place

10:40

a more robust set of policies

10:42

and procedures that's going to stop some

10:44

of the problems happening again. They

10:46

said that the Hillsong today is absolutely

10:48

different from the Hillsong of a year ago, and

10:51

Hillsong without Brian Houston doesn't

10:53

look like the Hillsong of Brian Houston. They

10:56

say that the services are different, that

10:58

the celebrity cultures go on the

11:01

expenses of being cut back. They're

11:03

also saying things like Brian Houston was

11:05

a micromanager. Everything had to go

11:07

through him, no one ever knew really

11:09

what was going on, and that it

11:12

was this culture under Brian's leadership

11:14

that became detrimental and toxic.

11:17

They're keen to tell people that financial

11:20

oversight has changed, that the old

11:22

board was gutless. They're also saying

11:24

that the big thing is that under the old system,

11:26

the senior pastor had all the control.

11:29

This is no longer the case, and complaints

11:31

about senior passes should be dealt with externally

11:33

and independently. They're talking

11:35

about things like having psychological assessments

11:38

come in for candidates and ministry, and

11:41

they're pretty explicit that their

11:43

old system failed. Well, what about

11:46

the specific issues you raison the series

11:48

we reported on serious allegations

11:51

of abuse at Hillsong, New York. We

11:53

know from the reports leaked to you that Hillsong's

11:56

own lawyers recommended changes. It's

11:58

really interesting to me because that report

12:01

that came out of everything that went wrong

12:03

and Hillsong on the East Coast was so

12:05

damning about their culture and

12:08

made some really explicit recommendations.

12:11

But speaking to my contacts within Hillsong,

12:14

it's really unclear whether these recommendations

12:17

by their own lawyers have actually been implemented.

12:20

And now some people are saying, oh, we've

12:22

had a new review and we're putting in a

12:25

whole lot of recommendations and procedures

12:27

and policies in place based out

12:29

of this new review. And this is being

12:31

implemented right now. In fact, it should

12:34

be complete by around August twenty

12:36

twenty three. One thing that Hillsong

12:38

is clear about is that a hypercharismatic

12:41

preacher like Carl Lentz isn't going

12:43

to happen again. They can't

12:45

let someone get out of control and

12:47

damage the church, no matter how many

12:50

souls they bring through the door. It

12:53

sounds to me like the messages the

12:55

bad stuffers in the past. Yes,

12:57

people got hurt, but trust us, it's

13:00

all going to be different. But I still

13:02

don't hear much acknowledgment of the hurt cause

13:05

to people who've left. I'm

13:07

talking about what i'd call spiritual

13:09

abuse. Bostravijian

13:12

is a lawyer who works with victims of church

13:14

abuse. He's had professional experience

13:16

with Hillsong. Yeah, so I wanted

13:18

to ask a bit more of what

13:21

does spiritual abuse or

13:23

religious abuse? A lot of people define it differently.

13:26

A lot of people use those two words interchangeably.

13:28

But what does that look like for you in the

13:31

legal sense. Yeah, I'm not sure

13:33

if there's a set working definition

13:35

of spiritual religious abuse.

13:38

I think in the work that I've done, if I

13:40

was to try to unpack that a little bit,

13:42

I would say that it is the

13:45

use of spiritual matters which

13:47

could include community theology,

13:50

teachings to abuse

13:53

or disenfranchise others. Now,

13:56

what does that mean? That can mean so many different

13:58

things. So, for example, I believe that

14:00

any form of sexual abuse is also

14:02

a form of spiritual abuse, especially

14:06

within the faith community. There's

14:08

no way that you can have a spiritual leader

14:11

engaging in sexual abuse of somebody

14:13

under their care and there not be profound

14:16

aspects of spiritual abuse.

14:19

People believing that this is what God God

14:22

wants, or that it's okay with God, or

14:24

that you know, a twisting of theology

14:27

to say and to justify that

14:30

type of conduct which does just devastates

14:34

individuals emotionally, physically, but

14:36

also spiritually. I

14:38

think that legally there

14:41

really isn't a cause of action

14:43

in the United States for spiritual abuse.

14:46

I think that courts generally stay

14:48

far away from that because courts

14:51

generally don't like to get involved with theological

14:54

disputes or ecclesiastical

14:56

matters. So to say something spiritually

14:59

abusive can be a nebulous

15:01

term. I mean, I think anybody who's been spiritually abused

15:04

gets it. But you

15:06

know, there would be some people in the Christian world.

15:08

You talk about a particular conduct

15:10

and say that's spiritual abuse, and they would have

15:12

no clue what you're talking about. They would say, no, that's

15:15

not spiritual abuse. That's part of our belief

15:17

or our faith system. And there'd be others who

15:19

would say, oh my god, that's about as spiritual abuse

15:21

of as you can get. Often in

15:24

the work that you do, what is

15:26

the most common type of case

15:28

that you've seen in which you're

15:31

able to find some form of accountability

15:34

or justice. One thing people have to understand

15:36

is a difference between criminal and civil law.

15:40

Criminal law is when the

15:42

government comes in and prosecutes

15:45

or holds an individual or individuals accountable

15:47

for committing crimes, and the ultimate consequence

15:51

of a criminal case can be incarceration.

15:54

On the other end, you have civil cases.

15:56

Civil cases are private actions

15:59

where one person and sues another

16:01

based upon what we call a recognized cause

16:03

of action, and in a

16:05

civil case, the ultimate consequence

16:09

is compensation, not incarceration.

16:12

And the big difference between civil and criminal

16:14

case is that in a civil case, the

16:17

victim is in the driver's seat in the case,

16:19

making the decisions. But what I

16:21

look back on my cases were I

16:24

think most of my clients and I think

16:26

they would say this, that was the most

16:29

positive and healing aspect of the process,

16:32

and it's a difficult process, was

16:34

the fact that they were empowered through

16:36

the process to be a party,

16:39

to step out of the shadows, to file

16:41

a lawsuit with their name on it against

16:44

that church or against that institution,

16:46

to hold them accountable in some

16:49

fashion, and to force them to higher

16:51

lawyers, to force them to come to depositions,

16:54

to force them to answer questions. That's

16:57

very empowering and in essence healing.

17:00

Who a lot of my clients who as you know,

17:02

as a as a survivor, so much is

17:04

taken away from you. Yeah. Often, power

17:07

is like the biggest thing that I have to work on

17:09

in therapy. I've been hearing a lot

17:11

of folks, mainly on social media,

17:13

when different things come out. The

17:16

biggest thing that comes up is there

17:18

a possibility for a class action lawsuit

17:21

if we were to all come together to

17:23

present the case. I know the burden of proof

17:26

would be on us to show that there was

17:28

intent, but what would that look like. I'm

17:30

not a class action lawyer. Having

17:33

said that, I really don't believe

17:35

that these type of cases lend themselves

17:38

to class action lawsuits. And the

17:40

reason is that the primary objective

17:42

of a class action lawsuit is really not financial.

17:45

It's really to hold whatever entity, whether

17:47

it's a you know, a company, business,

17:49

a car manufacture, whatever, to

17:52

hold them responsible to fix a problem.

17:54

And what the secret about class

17:56

action lawsuits is is

17:59

that lawyers are the ones who benefit the

18:01

most from class action lawsuits. Boz

18:03

doesn't believe class action lawsuits are

18:05

an answer, but he says individuals

18:08

can bring legal action, and he

18:10

believes that this can be a part of taking

18:12

back power. The monetary damages

18:15

can be economic and can be noneconomic,

18:17

So pain and suffering damages. How

18:19

do you even put a dollar a figure to that.

18:22

One of the things that we think about, because

18:25

a lot of my clients, which is which is a good thing,

18:27

one of the things that get really uneasy talking

18:29

about is money. And what I have to sort

18:31

of gently push back on is, no,

18:34

this is about money, because if

18:36

you sat down and counted up the

18:39

financial cost that

18:41

this abuse has

18:45

cost your life, it's significant,

18:48

It's beyond significant. And so why

18:50

in the world should you be, as the victim,

18:53

be pulling out money from

18:55

your wallet or your bank account

18:58

many survivors who don't even have it. Why

19:01

should you be having to do that when

19:03

the one that's responsible or the entities

19:06

that are responsible, should be doing that.

19:08

That's part of why we sue churches

19:11

and sue organizations because we're saying,

19:13

listen, one way we hold you accountable

19:16

is to make sure that you are going to compensate

19:18

me for all of my loss, financial

19:21

and non financial. When

19:24

it comes to law and religion, accountability

19:27

is elusive. Doctor Stephen Hassan

19:29

is trying to come up with an answer. He

19:32

spent more than forty years helping people

19:34

get out of all types of authoritarian

19:36

groups, religious cults, political

19:39

cults, therapy cults, and multi

19:41

level marketing groups. He's

19:43

best known for his work on something called

19:46

the Bite model. You can check it

19:48

out on his website. But to explain

19:50

it simply, it's a list of red

19:52

flags, a checklist of characteristics

19:55

of mind control. Well, I believe

19:58

everyone should understand stand

20:00

the influence continuum and Bite

20:02

model, and they should understand

20:05

the qualities of most

20:07

cult leaders is malignant narcissism.

20:10

And what I advocate is people

20:13

be good consumers. So

20:15

if they're being invited to something

20:18

that they should do an independent investigation,

20:21

not depend on the recruiters. To

20:23

give you information. And

20:26

the simplest thing these days with Google

20:29

is to put the name in quotes of

20:31

the group, the name of the leader

20:33

in quotes. Then you do plus

20:35

cult or plus scam,

20:38

plus brainwashing, plus

20:41

x members. And don't just settle

20:43

for the first page, go ten

20:46

pages in because most

20:48

of the big cults manipulate search

20:50

engines because they know most people won't

20:53

look more than three pages on

20:55

Google. But the other thing is

20:57

so research the leader, the story,

21:00

and so you want to ask hard questions.

21:03

And most cult leaders go for power,

21:05

money, and sex, and some want all

21:08

three. And you want to get

21:10

involved with a religious group where the leader

21:13

isn't me me, me, Me, Me me. You

21:15

want the centrality to be

21:17

focused on helping lift up members

21:21

and support them and teach love rather

21:23

than hate. And if a group's

21:26

legitimate, it will stand up to scrutiny.

21:28

So you know, allow your inner

21:31

gut or your inner voice,

21:33

it's saying there's something wrong here, listen

21:36

to yourself and reality test. When

21:39

he was nineteen, Stephen was recruited

21:41

into a cult, the Moonies. His

21:44

experience motivated him to try and change

21:46

the legal system. He wants

21:49

those who exercise destructive

21:51

mind control to be held criminally

21:53

accountable. It's become a mission

21:56

and a crusade for forty six years,

21:59

and the last seven years I've

22:01

been focusing on getting a doctorate

22:04

and trying to create

22:07

a formula that judges and juries

22:09

can use to evaluate undue influence

22:12

in courts of law, because

22:14

I feel that what is being done

22:16

should be illegal. There's a long

22:19

way to go before we see any legal

22:21

changes. But Stephen Hassan's

22:24

focus is also on recovery, and

22:26

a part of that is dealing with guilt. So

22:29

I think that one should own

22:32

the fact that you did interfere

22:35

with other people's lives and perhaps

22:38

cause great harm, but also

22:40

acknowledge you were doing the best

22:42

you could with the information and experiences

22:45

you had. You were believing you

22:48

were doing a good thing. And so

22:50

it starts with not having a

22:52

black and white judgment on your

22:55

younger self. But here's what

22:57

I tell all of my clients as

22:59

a therapist. I say, the key

23:02

to recovering from destructive mind

23:04

control is controlling your own

23:06

mind. I ask people

23:08

to answer, if they knew

23:12

then what they know now, what

23:14

would they have said or done differently. So,

23:18

in the case of the younger me when I was

23:20

nineteen. If Steve knew

23:22

these women were moonies and they were going

23:25

to ask them to drop out of college and become

23:27

a right wing fascist, I would have told them,

23:29

no, you can't sit at my table. In

23:31

fact, get the hell off my campus. I'm

23:34

calling security. So the idea

23:36

is I'm empowering my clients

23:39

to heal themselves. And

23:41

the critical thing is to be in your body,

23:44

to be in the now and have

23:47

goals for the future

23:49

that can be very positive

23:51

and attractive to you that you have a

23:54

future you want to live. We

23:56

can rewire our brains

23:58

to be the way we want to be now. I

24:02

was told by a professor at this

24:04

forensic think tank I've been a part of at

24:06

Harvard. He said, if you really want to change

24:08

the law, you need a doctor at Steve,

24:11

and you need to do a quantitative study

24:13

or in your model to prove that it has

24:15

efficacy. And I said,

24:18

Michael, I'm sixty three, and

24:20

he said I'm seventy seven. Do

24:22

you want to change the law or not? And

24:25

I was like, damn, I

24:27

guess I'm gonna go

24:29

back to school and crack

24:31

the textbooks and learn.

24:34

And it turned out to be one of the best choices

24:36

I made because I got smarter.

24:39

And that's one thing I hope you'll take away from false

24:41

prophets. All of us, even

24:44

the smartest people, can fall for stuff. But

24:47

what about some of the people we've met in this series.

24:49

How did the Hillsong experience affect their

24:52

lives and faith? Oludharado

24:55

was part of Hillsong, New York, New Jersey,

24:57

and Los Angeles. So my

24:59

relationship to faith is that you

25:01

know it exists. I still

25:04

believe in Jesus, but I'm definitely

25:07

not part of a church. I don't plan to

25:09

be part of a church ever. Again. I

25:11

do believe churches do do good, but

25:14

for me, the damage that can be

25:16

done to the individual supersedes

25:19

the good that it does overall.

25:22

So for me personally, I can't

25:24

do it. I just can't be a part of a church

25:26

at all. I really just don't think they

25:28

are safe spaces for people who

25:30

aren't white. And after

25:34

I left the church, I definitely

25:36

was scared that I wouldn't be as

25:39

close to God or

25:41

my faith, and that was

25:43

proven wrong. I didn't necessarily need to

25:45

be part of a church to be close

25:48

to God or to have strong faith. Racism

25:51

came up a lot in this series. Who

25:54

Song says on its website that it's

25:56

woken up to diversity and

25:58

inclusion issues. Also

26:00

says that their new board is more diverse.

26:03

And what about people who work for really low

26:05

wages for Hillsong pastors and left

26:07

feeling exploited? How

26:09

do they feel now? Megan

26:12

Fallon was one of the nannies and volunteers

26:14

at Hillsong New York. She moved

26:16

to San Francisco and she gave birth to twin

26:19

daughters soon after talking to us. I

26:21

don't know the answer that what Hillsong could

26:23

do to get better, but I know it starts

26:25

with like listening to the people that they've

26:27

hurt. And I just am

26:30

a firm believer that like, if your intentions

26:32

are good, you can go into any situation and

26:34

spin it around. But you

26:36

know, this church and these people

26:39

are hurting or have hurt a lot of folks,

26:41

and so just be careful

26:44

and if you did feel like it's time

26:46

to leave, like trust that gut feeling

26:48

the first time you feel it. And there's

26:51

a lot of us kind of on the other side

26:53

that there's like a lot of support

26:55

out there now, which is really awesome. Hillsong

26:58

isn't going to engage with us. We

27:00

are the past. I guess it says

27:02

the Hillsong of today is not the Hillsong

27:05

of Brian Houston. Ashley Easter

27:07

has been with us through the series. She's

27:10

an abuse survivor and an advocate

27:12

for victims. In her experience,

27:15

powerful people don't change. The

27:18

people that you're dealing with in

27:20

these church systems are not like

27:23

you most of the time. They

27:25

do not have the same kind of empathy you have

27:28

most of the time. They're not driven by the same

27:30

care for other people that you are driven

27:32

by. And so don't

27:35

be disillusioned that talking

27:37

about the problem and bringing

27:40

up these issues is going to some

27:42

help tug at their heartstrings and they're going to

27:44

want to do the right thing. So focus

27:46

more on what you can do for survivors

27:49

and to advance the cause of survivors

27:52

and protecting other people from getting

27:54

in these situations. In the beginning,

27:58

I used to think that AVOCA to see

28:00

work. The goal was to maybe change

28:03

the systems or the churches, or maybe

28:05

get the pastors to listen. I

28:07

don't believe that that's the goal anymore. I

28:10

think the goal that realized now is

28:12

really just to empower the survivor

28:14

community and to sound

28:17

the alarm so it doesn't happen to other

28:19

people, so they can make decisions to keep themselves

28:21

safe. And to be able to have your story

28:24

told and validated

28:26

by a community, and to warn other

28:28

people. I think those are some huge winds

28:30

that we're seeing in the survivor

28:33

community as a whole. What

28:39

about my personal story and queer identity?

28:41

No sign of change there from Hillsong. Will

28:44

Hillsong affirm gay people? The

28:47

message we're getting is no, will

28:49

gay people be accepted in leadership roles?

28:52

No? Will Hillsong be more

28:54

clear on their message? The sign

28:56

we're getting is no. But the

28:58

message is still welcome home,

29:01

you belong here. It's

29:04

time for a final catch up with Oh Hardy.

29:06

We're not surprised that Hillsong doesn't want to talk

29:08

on the record. From

29:11

your perspective, does it look any different to the Hillsong

29:13

that you left? To be honest,

29:16

I guess different in terms of

29:18

the leader at the front, the person holding

29:21

the mic, But in terms of systems,

29:24

I see it the same, Like nothing

29:26

has changed. The system was founded the

29:28

way it was and they liked it the way

29:30

it was and it's not going to shift from that.

29:33

Yeah, I've also been wondering, I mean, for

29:35

you, is there going to be a point where you draw

29:37

a line and say, Hillsong is so far

29:39

in the revision mirror now I'm not thinking

29:42

about it talking about it anymore, Like are you ever

29:44

gonna have you ever sort of set that point

29:46

for yourself or are you just kind of just

29:49

kind of rolling with it. That's a great question.

29:51

I think as a person of color,

29:54

as a queer person, when

29:57

you go through experiences, you often

30:00

and to use your story

30:02

in order to advocate for change, and

30:06

knowing that things are not going to change

30:08

in terms of LGBTQ policies, if

30:10

they were to change our LGBTQ policies,

30:13

then I'd be like, Okay, my work is done. But

30:15

if they didn't until the day

30:18

they change their LGBTQ policies and actually

30:20

say we do not

30:23

affirm LGBTQ people within

30:25

their website, make it loud and clear

30:28

that they are homophobic, then I will

30:30

stop talking. I think that's

30:32

the line I'm going to draw, But for now

30:35

that hasn't happened, So I'm going to continue to do

30:38

it. That's really admirable. I think it's

30:40

really cool if you're still energized by

30:42

it. And yeah, I think like

30:44

you have to have a good sense of division within

30:47

your life. I have the Noemi

30:49

that goes to work, the Noemi that goes

30:51

to advocate for LGBTQ people within

30:54

the work that I do outside of

30:57

all of this, and then there's a Noemi

30:59

that speaks out within this

31:02

podcast or within Hillsong

31:04

Realms. Once I walk out of

31:07

here, I'm gonna take a deep

31:09

breath and say, Okay, now let's go

31:11

have fun. I don't need to carry this all

31:13

day with me. But it takes years

31:15

for things to change when you're speaking out,

31:17

and it hurts and it's sad, but

31:20

it's the reality of how Hillsong

31:22

had us before, where Hillsong was our

31:24

whole life. So then to now have it

31:27

only be a small part of your life where you're speaking

31:29

out, that's really hard to make that division.

31:32

But I think it's also empowering to do that,

31:34

to place that situation in a little

31:37

box and to be able to go have fun. I

31:40

think, honestly, that's the best form of

31:42

revenge. That's the best form of justice

31:45

and accountability that I have found within

31:48

to be able to

31:50

pick up and be happy. Yeah, you got

31:52

a smile an her face. Man, it's the hard

31:54

work of healing. Awesome.

31:58

Yeah, should

32:00

we see? Yeah, let's go. Look.

32:03

I want to get a flag. This is New

32:05

York Pride twenty twenty two, my

32:08

first time here. For me,

32:10

it feels like the best end to my story.

32:13

We started the Pride Parade just a couple of blocks

32:15

from Hillsong Church. It no

32:17

longer has the power to hurt me. It's

32:20

fun. Welcome to my

32:22

life. It all

32:24

came together and it

32:27

all became even more

32:30

special and monumental in my life.

32:33

When I was able to walk in the Pride

32:35

Parade, I

32:37

got to take back the start and finish

32:40

where I wanted to finish, without

32:43

someone telling me where to go or what to do, and

32:45

telling me who I could or couldn't love. I

32:49

think that for me was very special.

32:53

You could hear Teddy barking in the back. He

32:55

also believes it was special, even though he didn't go. It

33:02

brings me to tears because I

33:05

went through so many dark nights and

33:08

to just hear myself embrace

33:11

all of me in that parade and

33:14

just like seeing the people around cheering

33:16

and like embracing and yelling and accepting

33:19

me was like a very

33:21

big contrast in comparison to my

33:24

experience at a Hillsong where

33:26

I was told to complete opposite. So

33:30

yeah, a

33:34

lot of emotions. I

33:39

started the series wanting to do this, get

33:42

answers from Hillsong. I'm

33:44

still waiting to shine

33:46

a light on things Hillsong didn't want to see.

33:49

We've done that, and to take

33:51

back power. This march

33:53

and this series was definitely a

33:56

take back from me. I'm

33:59

nomoibe and this is false

34:01

prophets, and I want to thank everyone

34:03

who shared their stories with me. Special

34:09

thanks to l Hardy. The series

34:11

producer was Louise Cotton, Assistant

34:14

producer was Leo Schick. Thanks

34:16

to our executive producer Alex

34:18

Holland's sound design was

34:21

by David Thomas. Location

34:23

production in Australia was by Sharon

34:26

Davies and thanks to our production

34:28

manager Carrie Louder. The

34:33

development producer was Naomi Harvey.

34:36

False Prophets Hillsong is a story Glass

34:38

production and is distributed by iHeartRadio.

34:42

The executive producer from iHeartRadio

34:44

is Dylan Fagan, with special thanks

34:47

to beth N Macaluso.