0:00

Family Secrets is a production of I Heart

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Radio High

0:12

Family Secrets. Family. It's Danny

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back with a bonus episode. I

0:17

hope you're enjoying this special content we're

0:19

creating as we continue to be hard

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at work getting ready for season four.

0:24

It's been so great to be back in the studio,

0:27

well my basement, talking

0:30

to my amazing season four guests.

0:32

When it comes to family secrets, there is simply

0:35

no shortage of remarkable

0:37

stories and courageous,

0:39

inspiring people who share them.

0:42

Our bonus episode today is a conversation

0:45

I recently had with the hosts of the popular

0:47

Forever thirty five podcast, Kate

0:49

Spencer and Dorry Scheffrier. Forever

0:52

thirty five is a show focuses

0:54

on all kinds of self care, and

0:57

Kate and Dory are honest, funny,

0:59

and very ill. I thought

1:01

we'd be talking about self care in the context

1:03

of family secrets, but given

1:06

the backdrop of the extraordinary times

1:08

we're all living through, we ended up

1:10

focusing much more on self care

1:12

during this time of anxiety and

1:15

social isolation, which, come

1:17

to think of it, pertains to family secrets

1:19

as well. Family secrets cause anxiety

1:21

and social isolation too, so there

1:24

you have it. I hope you enjoy

1:26

and find this bonus episode helpful.

1:35

So, Dory and Kate, I'm so

1:37

happy to be talking to you both, and

1:41

I'm wondering what your

1:43

lives have been like since we last spoke,

1:46

because when we last spoke was

1:48

at the very start of

1:51

the pandemic hitting the U. S. We were originally

1:54

supposed to get together outside

1:58

by a pool and a hotel

2:01

in l A to record

2:03

an episode of Forever

2:06

thirty five, and that feels

2:08

like it's a lifetime ago to me. Just

2:11

the ability to do that feels almost

2:14

foreign at this point, isn't it. It's amazing

2:16

how fast that happens. Yeah,

2:18

I and I think that we

2:20

were supposed to all meet up kind of the weak

2:22

things were really transitioning very rapidly in

2:25

terms of UM moving

2:27

to social distancing and COVID

2:29

cases increasing in the United States,

2:31

and so it all kind of it all kind of happened

2:34

very suddenly and still felt kind of

2:36

new, and and now I think we've both definitely

2:39

settled into UM.

2:41

I think what a listener of our show for over thirty

2:44

five referred to as the next normal,

2:47

supposed to the new normal. I

2:49

like that because the new normal sort of trivializes

2:52

it in a way, right, Yeah, and

2:54

it makes it harder to kind of. Um,

2:57

I think the idea of a new normal is

2:59

a little daunting, but the next

3:01

normal feels like something we can kind of step

3:03

into. So

3:06

what are your what are your days like? Now? Are

3:08

you you know? I think? I mean I'm on the East

3:10

Coast, and I think it's amazing the way

3:12

different parts of the country are in

3:15

different stages of either

3:17

social distance or gathering right

3:20

now. Um, I saw that

3:22

hair salons just opened in l A, which

3:25

probably got some people very excited. And

3:27

here that kind of thing has not been

3:30

declared essential yet. Yeah.

3:33

The l A reopening has been

3:35

very abrupt. We

3:37

for weeks we were told we

3:39

needed to shelter in place and that cases

3:43

dusts were still going up. And then suddenly

3:46

yesterday, we're recording this right after the Memorial

3:48

Day weekend. Suddenly yesterday

3:51

our mayor announced that retail

3:53

stores were going to be reopening. The governor

3:57

allowed other hair salon I

3:59

don't know if responds are open in l A or

4:01

it's California. There's there's a few differences

4:03

between what is allowed in California. Versus

4:06

what is allowed in l A. But in any

4:08

case, it's just for

4:10

me. It just seemed like whoa, whoa, whoa,

4:12

whoa, Like what what what are

4:14

we? What are we doing here? Um?

4:16

I don't really have plans to like

4:19

go hang out of the mall. I'm

4:21

not really leaving my house very much.

4:23

I go onto neighborhood walks and masked

4:25

and that's, you know,

4:28

the occasional grocery store trip, and that's kind

4:30

of it. UM. Kate and I had

4:32

been recording a daily podcast

4:34

called Here for You that we

4:36

started. We must have started it right after

4:39

we spoke to you, I think,

4:42

um. And as

4:44

of this Friday,

4:47

it will be done. We will have done fifty episodes,

4:50

and that has been consuming

4:52

a big part of my day for

4:55

the last ten weeks in a really

4:57

good way. I think I really needed that structure

4:59

and just distraction. UM

5:02

two helped structure

5:04

my days because otherwise

5:07

it's so hard. That's so interesting

5:10

because I don't know if you both

5:12

know I did the same thing. I also

5:15

hadn't done that when

5:17

we last spoke, and I created

5:20

a daily podcast called The Way We Live Now and

5:23

it's still ongoing. But it's

5:25

interesting that we all

5:28

felt a a need

5:30

to create it. Not like

5:32

we didn't have enough to do already, right, um,

5:35

right, but somehow a need to create

5:38

something of this time,

5:41

and also to create structure

5:43

or more structure in days

5:46

that suddenly we're kind

5:49

of unrecognizable because

5:51

of what was being asked of all of us in terms

5:53

of sheltering in place completely.

5:56

It has really helped having

5:59

some sort of regular work

6:02

practice every day, almost as if we

6:04

were going into an office or something like. They're

6:06

like, we just had to show up to do

6:08

it, and think that that's showing

6:10

up that regular routine, similar to the way

6:12

that my children had, you know, kind of zoom

6:15

classes three days a week with their teachers

6:17

or there was just something about that

6:20

consistency that felt very

6:22

grounding and needed. So

6:26

you're you're amazing Listenership

6:29

relies on both of you for conversation

6:33

and ideas about self care, and I

6:35

feel like self

6:37

care, at least for me,

6:39

has shifted

6:42

or is shifting in terms

6:45

of how I think of it or what it means.

6:48

Um. Sometimes it feels like it's expanding,

6:51

sometimes it feels like it's contracting. But

6:53

what are what are you noticing in

6:56

a sort of general way, what is self

6:59

care look like during this time? I

7:01

mean, I think it's really different for different

7:04

people. One thing that I think the pandemic

7:06

is really highlighted is so

7:10

the divisions, um

7:13

among people in this

7:15

country, whether it's race, class,

7:19

um, you know, people who are employed,

7:21

people who are not employed, people who have children,

7:23

people who don't have children, people

7:25

who live alone, people who live with a significant

7:28

other. Like, there's just so many permutations

7:30

of how people are experiencing this pandemic.

7:32

And so I think self care

7:34

looks different for different

7:37

people. Um. That said,

7:40

I think that one commonality

7:42

that at least we have kind of been

7:45

encouraging our listeners is

7:47

to try to take

7:50

some time to reflect, um

7:52

within encouraging people to keep journals.

7:55

Kate started a one line a day journal, which is

7:57

something I've been doing for a few months, and the listener

7:59

a sorry and the guest of ours um

8:02

has been doing for eleven years.

8:05

But just something to have a chronicle

8:07

of this time. And you know, you were kind of alluding

8:09

to that with talking about your daily

8:11

podcast, and I think with our podcast as

8:14

well. Just desire to have a

8:16

record of this time, I think is something that falls

8:18

under the rubric of self

8:20

care for a lot of people. Yeah.

8:23

Absolutely, I mean I think the

8:26

slowing down that is

8:30

an inevitable result

8:32

of this time, like whether in

8:34

some cases I think that's welcome and in

8:36

some cases it's really very

8:39

hard, very very hard for

8:43

some of us who have been kind

8:45

of going full tilt in a

8:48

very structured, very people,

8:51

very busy life too,

8:54

face ourselves in some way and

8:57

um and you know, and what is that mean?

9:00

I love the I love the idea of a one

9:02

line journal because it you know, sometimes

9:05

when I'm teaching writing, I'll often try

9:07

to give my students a prompt

9:10

that, you know, where the bar is really low,

9:13

where it's it's doable, right,

9:15

it's not it's not a mountain to

9:17

climb. You can write one line. I

9:20

mean, I have something that I give my students

9:22

where I have them divide a page into

9:25

quadrants and I have them right

9:28

a number of things that they did, that they

9:30

saw, that they heard, and then

9:32

a doodle of one of those things every

9:35

day, you know, just and

9:37

it's like its own kind of diary. Oh I

9:39

heard a dog barking, and then drawing a picture

9:41

of the dog, and um, or I saw

9:44

I saw a fire truck go by, and

9:46

somehow it it's again like

9:48

one of those the bar is low. You

9:50

know, you can you can do this thing. You can make

9:52

a bad doodle, you can write a list of what you

9:55

remember. But the

9:57

idea of a record feels

10:02

really important because the sands are shifting

10:04

so rapidly. I think we're

10:07

a few months from now, We're not going to remember

10:09

how we felt right now, in a way

10:11

that it's almost difficult for us talking right now

10:13

to remember how we felt a couple of months ago when

10:16

this was first happening.

10:19

It's just it reminds me also of

10:21

the experience of grief and how in

10:24

the moment the rawness

10:26

is so intense, and then it can be hard to recount

10:29

how it felt. As time lose forward right

10:32

like that, it evolves,

10:34

And I think our our feelings during this experience

10:37

are evolving so quickly. Yeah,

10:40

and they are to

10:43

some degree kind of blurry

10:45

and unknowable to us if

10:48

we just try to remember them without recording

10:50

them. Because our days have

10:52

a sameness, you know that you know

10:54

what day is today? You know, is

10:56

it Wednesday? Is at Monday? Is it Friday? Is at

10:58

a weekend? Time? Is

11:00

it there. I mean, the things that create

11:03

structure in our lives,

11:06

tent poles in our lives, plans,

11:09

all of that is being put on pause,

11:12

and so I think it's very

11:15

hard to have

11:18

that feeling of knowing

11:20

really what these feelings are,

11:23

even yes,

11:27

we'll be back in a moment with more family

11:29

secrets. Are

11:36

you finding that

11:38

more people are reaching

11:41

out to therapists?

11:44

Are I mean, is there a sense of

11:47

asking for help more that you hear

11:49

about. I think there is a desire

11:51

to talk

11:53

to therapists, but I think it is sort of

11:55

dodging for a lot of people who

11:58

have maybe who have never done therapy before,

12:00

to start remotely. I think it's tough,

12:03

but people are doing it. I mean, there's there's

12:06

some services that advertise on our

12:08

podcast talk Space and Better Help, both

12:10

of which offer online

12:13

counseling, and I

12:15

think people are using things like that.

12:19

Yeah, it's it's interesting that you

12:21

know, we're we're in a time where that's

12:24

kind of the only mode with

12:27

which people can communicate, and

12:31

that it's also um that it's

12:33

available. Uh you know that that that this

12:35

was something that was already happening. I mean, I

12:38

my therapist doesn't live near me, um,

12:41

And so I'm most of the time

12:43

when I speak to her speak on face

12:46

time and and at a

12:48

certain point. And if you had told me a few

12:50

years ago, oh, that's an effective

12:52

way of speaking to a therapist, I

12:54

would have thought that it couldn't possibly

12:56

be that you needed to be in the room, that you

12:58

know, you needed the bodyline guide and the human contact.

13:01

And um, it's

13:03

in fact, it is possible. It's

13:05

possible to to connect in that way

13:07

and to and to have a real sense

13:09

of intimacy and of

13:12

of being helped. And I

13:14

mean, I've been so struck by how many

13:17

modalities and how many

13:19

different kinds of help are

13:22

available to people right

13:24

now without leaving our homes, just

13:26

you know, through our computers, through our phones. Yeah,

13:29

and thank goodness, I mean, you know, I'm

13:32

sure we would there would be other ways that that would

13:34

be happening in a different time. But we're so

13:37

lucky that we can connect

13:40

this way, um, during a global

13:42

pandemic, you know, I mean, I just it's it's

13:44

unimaginable to me if I if I was

13:46

not able to sit and FaceTime my

13:49

family members across the country to check in

13:51

or FaceTime with my therapist or or

13:53

dory even you know, I mean, it really is.

13:56

It's so grateful that we have that accessible

13:58

or many of us have an accessible on everybody does,

14:00

but right now it's

14:02

I mean, every every yoga teacher

14:05

I know, it seems, is having

14:07

zoom classes, you know, livestream

14:09

classes, and they're doing it very often

14:12

on a totally donation UM

14:15

you know, basis um

14:17

not charging or or pay what you can

14:19

or don't pay if you can't UM.

14:22

And there's this sort of flood

14:24

of generosity

14:26

and compassion that's one of the

14:29

silver linings of this time. I mean, I don't

14:31

mean remotely that sound like Pollyanna, because there

14:33

are so many people suffering and it is such

14:35

a hard time for really everybody.

14:38

It's hard, but within it

14:40

being hard, it feels like there are a

14:42

lot of offerings. And you

14:44

know that people who might be

14:47

isolated and where they live and

14:49

might never have sought out a therapist

14:52

or might not have been able to take a yoga

14:54

class with someone in um,

14:57

you know, New York City or Chicago

15:00

or New Orleans, and all these

15:02

studios have online

15:04

classes. It's like this cornucopia of

15:06

if you just open your computer, you can you

15:09

can have the feeling of being

15:11

with other people and also of instruction

15:15

and of I mean another thing is bookstores

15:18

because you know, writers have they

15:20

still had books coming out, and they still had to find some

15:23

way of having people know about

15:25

them. So bookstores are having all of what

15:27

used to be literary readings.

15:30

They're doing virtually and they've discovered

15:32

that hundreds of people show

15:35

up. Hundreds of people wouldn't have shown up

15:37

if they had to, you know, trudge

15:39

out to the bookstore or the bookstore wasn't

15:41

in their city or their town. But they're showing up

15:44

because they can, because it's available, because it's

15:46

free, and it's a way of gathering. I

15:48

mean, we are such connecting creatures

15:50

and we just long to connect. Yeah.

15:53

You know, a really wonderful example

15:56

of that is taking place in some

15:58

of our Facebook groups, and

16:00

there is a dating subgroup Forever

16:03

thirty five Dating, and they

16:05

get together virtually on an

16:07

app called Netflix Party and

16:10

they watch movies once or twice

16:12

a week together. Wow.

16:15

I love that because I've wondered,

16:17

I've wondered what it's like for people. You

16:19

know, my my son is he turned

16:21

twenty one in captivity a few weeks ago.

16:24

You know, he's home with

16:26

us. And I've saw a lot about

16:28

people who are dating

16:31

or had just started dating someone, or

16:33

are single and in

16:36

this time where we can't

16:38

touch each other, I wonder

16:40

what that's going to be

16:43

like in this period of time.

16:45

However long this period of time goes

16:47

on. So so this on on

16:49

in your Facebook groups, this um, this dating

16:52

subgroup, it's people who are like

16:54

identifying themselves as single and dating or

16:57

yeah, I think it's it's mostly

17:00

it's mostly people who identify single and dating. I

17:02

think there are some people in the group who

17:04

between the times they joined the group and now

17:06

have you know, I

17:08

didn't have become partnered.

17:11

But I think many people in the group

17:14

are single and live alone, and

17:16

so this has been a

17:19

really nice way for them to have

17:21

some connection during this time.

17:24

Yeah, I mean, I think whenever we're

17:26

having a solitary experience, it's

17:28

human nature to feel like we're the only ones having

17:30

that solitary experience. So

17:32

it's like, you know, it's like seeing lights

17:35

on in other people's houses, like knowing,

17:38

oh I'm not I'm not the only one you

17:40

know who's single and who's living alone and who's

17:42

going through this there are so many other people. Yes.

17:45

So one of the things that I love about

17:49

your podcast and your dynamic

17:51

the two of you, is the

17:53

way that you make things

17:56

like just really real. There's

17:59

just a lot of very straight talk

18:02

about sometimes pretty intimate

18:05

physical things and you

18:07

know, sort of bodily maintenance

18:10

things, and it's

18:13

really refreshing because

18:15

it's true and it's real. And

18:18

you know, I've been thinking a lot during this time about

18:21

the way that you know, we're

18:24

we're all growing a little feral,

18:27

you know, like we're all like our

18:30

hair is getting wild, and

18:33

you know, some of us are seeing our real hair color

18:35

for the first time in decades,

18:40

and you know, our

18:42

hands are chapped, and the

18:44

things that some of us, you

18:46

know, I feel like saying asking for a friend, some

18:49

of us who rely on

18:51

certain the kind of self

18:53

care that involves facials

18:56

and highlights and massages

18:58

and you know, manic ars and pedicures. That's

19:01

just like in a time

19:03

capsule. Now, you

19:06

know, it's just like from another time where people

19:08

did such things. And I

19:11

am surprised myself by

19:15

how, at least at the moment, how

19:17

liberating on finding that, like,

19:19

I don't feel remotely

19:23

like I can't wait to be

19:25

doing that again. I actually feel like,

19:28

wow, this is really cool that my

19:30

hair is like halfway down my back and

19:33

and I kind of like that it looks

19:35

the way that it does. And um,

19:37

oh, there are my toes. I haven't seen my own

19:39

toes in a while. I'm just are you

19:41

are you? Are you hearing that from people? And

19:44

how do you feel about that? Oh? Yeah,

19:46

I think I think we're all getting more

19:49

perhaps reconnected or refamiliarized

19:52

with parts of our physical

19:55

selves and emotional cells as well. But yes,

19:57

I mean I like, very plainly,

19:59

I off a pedicure and I hadn't

20:01

realized I had not seen my like

20:04

plan toenails in like a year,

20:07

and it was just it

20:09

was like, what have I been? What have I been doing?

20:11

You know, you get into these kind of

20:13

routines and habits that you and you enjoy,

20:17

but um our may

20:19

or may not be necessary, you know. So it's

20:21

it's been a it's it's

20:23

been a real privilege to get to kind of like re examine

20:26

these things. My hair is very long because

20:28

I've been putting up and getting a haircut since my

20:31

last one in September, and

20:34

it's kind of it's hilarious to me. I look, you know

20:37

my hair is this. It's my hairstyle

20:39

from when I was in college twenty years

20:41

ago. Um, And I

20:43

like reconnecting, but that I never thought my hair would

20:46

get this long unless I cut it

20:48

myself. It's just going to keep going. Yeah,

20:50

And you know, I mean it strikes me. It's sort of like a

20:53

metaphor for what's going on internally,

20:55

Like it's hard to talk about

20:57

some of these things because they feel like,

21:00

you know, sort of privileged problems.

21:03

Like I see my toes for the first you know,

21:05

I hadn't taken the same

21:07

exact thing that you said. I hadn't taken off my own

21:09

tonio polish in I don't even

21:11

know. I don't even know how long, embarrassingly

21:14

long time. Um. And we get

21:16

into these habits, and

21:18

the habits can become ruts,

21:21

or they can become things that

21:23

we think we need to help

21:25

us feel put together. I think that's

21:28

that's what I would say. And you

21:31

know, like right right when the when when the pandemic

21:33

really hit, I was still on book tour and I have

21:36

I have clothes that I bought for all

21:38

of these public appearances that I was going to do,

21:40

and when I opened my closet, uh,

21:43

these days, those clothes like are hanging there on hangars

21:45

like mocking me, like, oh, you thought

21:47

this was important or this

21:50

was going to make you feel empowered

21:52

to get up in front of a crowd of people. And

21:55

you know, they those sounds, those sound like sort

21:57

of small things, but I think that they stand

21:59

in for some of the bigger things

22:01

that have to do with where is our confidence

22:04

really coming from? And where

22:07

does our self knowledge come from? And what

22:09

actually makes us feel good

22:13

about ourselves? Because isn't that, ultimately

22:15

really what self care is all about.

22:17

How how do we feel good about ourselves and

22:20

each other and the world around

22:22

us. I mean, yes,

22:25

it's like it starts. It starts

22:27

to lead you that some very kind of deep

22:29

thinking, right like just to just

22:31

to manicure that you take for

22:33

granted all of a sudden feels like insight

22:36

into who you really are. But you

22:38

know, I also think one thing that has been interesting for

22:41

me is is it's been you

22:43

know, kind of removing yourself from this kind of

22:46

societal beauty industrial

22:48

complex, you know, by being at home

22:51

and not feeling these external pressures. But then

22:53

also there have been days where I've

22:55

put on a full face of makeup and I don't.

22:58

I don't normally wear makeup and my my regular

23:00

you know, pre coronavirus life.

23:03

Um. But's something about doing it

23:05

also feels really comforting and

23:07

soothing and like I'm just doing it for myself.

23:09

And so it's been interesting

23:11

to just take a step back and notice what

23:16

it brings this pleasure, why

23:18

when, what are the pressures that come along

23:20

with it, and and how is it playing

23:22

out right now? Yeah,

23:25

I'm so glad you said that. I mean, that's

23:27

I think that's really that's

23:29

really true that um and I and I

23:31

relate to it. Um. And I've also done

23:33

that, Like I I find for myself that I can't

23:35

like where pajamas on the bottom

23:38

and like be on a zoom call on the top. It

23:40

makes me feel too, like somehow

23:44

unprepared, even though nobody will

23:46

see, um, you know me from

23:48

the waist down or um. Yeah, putting

23:51

on makeup not for the world, not

23:53

for a public face, not for anybody

23:56

else, but for for myself

23:58

because it makes me feel put together. UM.

24:01

And that's that's interesting. Like,

24:04

Look, I'm I'm a meaning maker. That's what

24:06

I do like I'm like I can make meaning

24:08

out of you know, like I can go from

24:10

manicure to existential crisis

24:12

in in one sentences.

24:15

My that's my way.

24:17

But I do think

24:19

that all of these it's

24:21

just an opportunity to come

24:24

out of this into that next

24:26

normal um knowing

24:29

ourselves better and being

24:31

able to hold onto some of that.

24:34

I mean, the thing that I fear

24:37

is forgetting because

24:39

it feels like there's some really really big,

24:42

important, powerful lessons

24:44

to be learned during this time

24:47

that we are all, you know, we

24:49

are all going through. And you

24:52

know, I think it's always it can also be human nature

24:54

to just kind of snap back to the

24:56

way things were, and I feel like they're

24:58

the way things were. Is also

25:01

in that time capsule in a certain way,

25:03

like what are we who are we going to become? From this? Well?

25:06

And I think that's why keeping a record

25:08

of this time is so important, so

25:11

we have that to look

25:13

back on and to know what our

25:15

state of mind was and to know what our days were like.

25:19

And so when we go into

25:21

the next normal, we don't

25:23

just view this as like this weird aberration

25:26

or blip that it is part of us.

25:28

Yeah, exactly is there anything

25:31

else that you're sharing with

25:33

your listeners kind of coping

25:35

skills or things that are helpful,

25:38

you know, along the lines of the one line journal. I'm

25:42

not sure in terms of

25:44

specific activities

25:47

or practices if there's

25:49

something, but one thing we actually just very recently

25:51

talked about today is giving yourselves some grace

25:54

during this time. And I think that first

25:58

of all, easier said than done. Like,

26:00

you know, a listener had written us and said, like, people

26:03

keep telling me to be kind to myself, how do

26:05

I even do that? All the

26:07

things that would normally do I can't do, and

26:09

they were under you know, a lot of stress and kids

26:12

and work and changes at home. And

26:15

I think the ability to just give

26:18

yourself a pass right now and

26:21

then to also remember that that is a practice

26:23

that you have access to any time, whether

26:26

you were in the middle of a global pandemic or not, is

26:29

so important. M I'm

26:32

so glad you said that. I mean, there's this like so

26:34

much negative,

26:37

you know, sort of internal chatter that

26:39

we all share. Everyone

26:42

does it. I think it was and Anniel

26:44

Lamott said something most like, my

26:46

head is a bad neighborhood that I don't want to spend too

26:48

much time, and like, I know when I spend too much time

26:50

up there that like I need to get out of that neighborhood

26:53

and there, you know, it's

26:55

your your your listener put it so perfectly.

26:58

It's like, okay, that's those are words,

27:01

be kind to yourself. But

27:04

but how do you do that? And

27:07

you know, sometimes I look at my dog, and

27:09

I have a lab or doodle, and he's just like,

27:12

you know, one of the loves of my life. And he has

27:14

a very very very

27:16

patient and sweet disposition. And he will

27:18

just sit by the window and

27:21

look out. And I live in the country, and he'll look

27:23

out over the meadow and he's

27:25

not waiting for anything. It's not like he's waiting

27:28

for someone to come up the driveway or you

27:31

know, once in a while a deer will cross the meadow

27:33

and he'll bark, or you know, some really

27:35

exciting thing will happen, like a fox will trot by,

27:38

you know, or a squirrel or whatever. But

27:40

really he's just being and

27:42

he's enjoying. I guess, you

27:45

know, I can't read his mind, but he seems

27:47

pretty contempt looking out

27:49

the window. And I think,

27:51

you know, many of us are working, um,

27:55

many of us have young kids at home who are

27:57

home schooling or or or

27:59

supervising their school work. We're

28:02

with people or

28:05

we're not with people. Seven,

28:08

But there's a way in which we

28:10

do have more time. We just do. And

28:14

I think that there can be something really powerful

28:17

and helpful about just

28:19

being or speaking to

28:22

ourselves kindly, the way that we would speak to

28:24

someone that we felt kindly about, Like

28:26

why why can't we feel kindly about ourselves?

28:28

The way that we would feel to a friend or

28:30

or a stranger. Well, and you mentioned all

28:33

the wonderful surplus of offerings

28:35

right now, which are great, but

28:37

can also feel if

28:39

you're not you know, if you're not doing all the things

28:42

that can I feel like there's some sort of misopportunity,

28:46

yes, and that that can be so

28:48

painful and unhelpful and

28:51

just feel so awful. So I think there

28:54

is something so necessary

28:58

to about being ok a with

29:00

not doing in

29:02

whatever way that looks like for an individual.

29:05

Absolutely, because another way that

29:08

we're being connected to

29:10

each other is often social

29:12

media, and social media

29:14

can often look like everybody's

29:17

living their perfect pandemic life, you

29:20

know, like everybody's everybody's cooking

29:22

sour dope, baking, sour dope bread and

29:25

making elaborate meals and using

29:28

filters on their photographs. And I

29:31

heard the phrase pretty early

29:34

on productivity porn. Yeah,

29:38

and I think we're all vulnerable

29:41

to it, to feeling like, you

29:44

know, we're not mastering a

29:46

new language, or reading war in peace,

29:49

or learning a new skill,

29:52

or even necessarily performing

29:55

at wherever our level of

29:57

performance was before. I mean, you

30:00

know, sometimes it feels like getting

30:03

up and getting dressed and

30:06

making breakfast and accomplishing a couple

30:08

of things is kind of it. And

30:11

I feel like it's important for people to really,

30:15

you know, and I mean myself

30:18

included, and you know, cut ourselves

30:20

a break because this

30:22

is hard, and I think it's

30:24

okay to acknowledge that and to just

30:27

want to emerge

30:30

from this um

30:32

again into that next normal, whatever

30:34

that looks like, with body and soul

30:36

intact. And we don't do that by being hard on

30:38

ourselves. It's beautifully put. That's

30:41

exactly right. We'll

30:43

be right back. Occurs

30:49

to me too, that one of the things that you both are doing

30:52

is you create community.

30:54

You've been creating community through

30:57

your work through Forever thirty five

31:00

and through these Facebook groups,

31:02

and that's community the fact that you have people

31:04

who met each other who are partners now

31:07

and who are watching movies

31:09

together and realizing that there are all these other

31:11

people in the same boat. That's what's

31:13

going to get us through, is that feeling that

31:15

we're you know, that that we're

31:18

keeping it real and and that we are all in

31:20

it together and that we're not alone.

31:22

None, none of us has to feel

31:25

alone. Yeah, I mean I think I

31:27

think that is true. But

31:29

I also think that there

31:31

are people who are really struggling right

31:34

now, um, who live alone

31:36

and you know, maybe they haven't

31:39

seen or touched another person in

31:42

three months. And there

31:46

there is a really engaged virtual

31:48

community, but

31:50

I think the the fact of

31:53

not seeing people in real life

31:55

is very challenging. So I just

31:58

don't want to lose sight of that. No, glad

32:00

you said that. And even as I said, you

32:02

know, no one has to you know, be

32:04

suffering alone, I heard myself say

32:06

it and thought, well, that's not you know,

32:09

there's such a range of there's

32:11

such a range of suffering and a range of experience

32:14

right now, and um, and

32:16

everyone is is is

32:18

contending with their own

32:20

version of it, and and

32:23

and there's you can feel sometimes you

32:25

know, I mean, I feel

32:27

sometimes like the very earth is

32:29

kind of vibrating, you know, shuddering

32:32

with a kind of collective

32:34

pain. Never in our lifetime,

32:36

certainly, and maybe never in human

32:39

history has there been a moment

32:41

where everyone on the globe is actually

32:44

contending with the same thing. Where

32:46

there's there's nowhere, there's no corner of the earth

32:49

where anyone is um

32:52

exempt from this. And I

32:54

think the thing with being in a place where we've

32:56

created a community is that, you know, one

32:58

thing, because we get about that a lot,

33:00

and make surely just did a whole kind of zoom

33:03

present talk about this, but we're

33:06

we're part of the community and can benefit

33:08

from that um like reciprocal

33:10

nature of it. And so I know, like one

33:12

thing that has really gotten us

33:15

through this experience is the communication

33:17

we've had from listeners, you know, like

33:19

r even just right now, is we're recording,

33:23

we get we're getting emails or we get text messages

33:25

into our our voicemail account,

33:27

and and that helps us

33:29

keep going. And so I think like that

33:33

has been that probably sounds somewhat

33:35

selfish, but getting to getting

33:38

to exist in this kind of digital

33:41

community space is really gratifying

33:43

and it's like it's it's kind of a

33:45

reward of podcasting that I didn't foresee

33:48

when we started it is that we

33:50

would get to experience the feeling

33:53

of being seen and um,

33:56

belonging to a group, and

33:58

that has been very comforting,

34:00

especially now when things

34:03

feel so isolating. Yeah,

34:06

I know exactly what you mean, and that's um.

34:08

It is this UM it doesn't sound

34:10

selfish at all to me. It sounds

34:13

grateful, you know, for that sense

34:15

of connection and community

34:18

and and having it reflected back.

34:20

Like oh, when you make a podcast or

34:23

you write a book, or you

34:25

know, you make anything, you're you're

34:28

making it and sending it into the world,

34:30

really not knowing, not having

34:32

any idea, um, who's listening,

34:35

who it's reaching, who's reading

34:37

you, if you're a writer like me, and

34:40

to hear that your words are landing,

34:43

that your conversations are landing, and

34:46

and that it's giving people something,

34:49

um gives so much back. I mean, that's that just

34:52

that feeling and being a part

34:54

of a community in that way. So

34:57

yeah, I mean, I'm just really grateful for

34:59

that myself, and and grateful for the two

35:01

of you, and and for everything that you're doing.

35:04

That's really, so,

35:07

I think the last

35:09

question that I would have for you is

35:11

one that I've been asking my guests on the

35:15

way we live now, which is what's

35:17

bringing you both hope now during

35:21

this time? What do you hope will

35:23

come out of this time? You know, with

35:26

and and and and what's what either

35:28

practices or just feelings or thoughts

35:31

or something that you're reading or listening

35:33

to that's making

35:35

you feel a sense of solace

35:37

or hope. Kind a lot

35:40

of joy and hope.

35:42

Listening to my children

35:44

communicate with their friends, m

35:47

hm, it really I mean,

35:49

one, like, we're very lucky that we

35:52

have, uh they have we have by

35:54

pans in our home, which means they have access

35:56

to you know, Internet, and they're hopping on and like

35:58

they now just kind of like set up

36:01

a zoom with a friend and I'll just

36:03

like my seven year old

36:05

and her friend like play games together

36:08

over face time and she reads to

36:10

her and they like I just heard them both singing

36:12

together one day, and it just struck

36:15

me at how they've

36:17

really one been able to maintain

36:20

their relationships and their little people. You know,

36:22

my kids are seven and nine. And then also

36:24

just how they have adapted

36:26

in such a really like beautiful way.

36:29

It's like that kind of like just when I hear them

36:31

like chattering away to each other about

36:34

whatever nonsense, it just gives

36:37

me. It just gives me

36:39

like a sense of like, Okay, you know,

36:41

like even though I'm panicked

36:43

about everything that's going on right now

36:46

and I'm and I can see the stress in my kids

36:48

as well, like they've been they've been struggling. But

36:50

those kind of moments gives me a lot of They

36:52

gave me a lot of a lot of hope. Um.

36:55

The other thing. The other thing I've been doing,

36:58

um is taking

37:00

photographs of nature. I'm

37:02

going to live like a very suburban neighborhood. It's

37:04

not like I'm going through walks in the woods or

37:06

anything, but just

37:08

just being able to being

37:11

able to really appreciate

37:13

things that are around me all the time. And

37:15

I think I feel that way about my family too,

37:18

you know, so grateful

37:20

for them, and it's just remind It's

37:22

it's just I think many people are experienced

37:25

experiencing this a reminder of like

37:27

what truly value.

37:29

And I know that if this is all resolved,

37:32

I will go back to, you know, being very

37:34

excited to get a facial again. But I, like

37:36

you were saying, Danny, like, I hope that the things I

37:38

do hold on to are the

37:40

time I've spent communicating with my family, because

37:43

all, you know, separated, the times I

37:45

spend just kind of enjoying my children's

37:48

chatter, the experience of the nature

37:50

that is around me, like right out my door. All those things

37:52

are things that take so easily for

37:54

granted. So that makes me, that

37:57

makes me hopeful that those those kind of things

37:59

will linger, you know. I

38:01

am hopeful that people will

38:03

look at how much

38:06

the planet has healed

38:08

during this time when people aren't driving

38:10

and flying and going on

38:13

cruise ships as

38:15

much as they had been, and

38:18

maybe we will all be able to

38:20

help heal the planet going

38:22

forward as well. I'm

38:24

so glad you said that as well, because that's

38:27

yeah. I mean, we read pieces

38:29

every day about how now certain

38:32

um mountain peaks are visible from

38:35

other mountain peaks that had hadn't been

38:37

in our lifetimes. And I

38:39

spoke with the great environmental

38:43

writer Terry Tempest williams Um

38:45

last week and she was talking about she lives

38:48

in Utah, and she was talking

38:50

about the the rivers that would

38:52

typically be full of people rafting

38:55

Um. She and her husband went down there and they

38:57

were full of otters and

39:00

sea life and you know see

39:02

creatures who were probably who were always

39:04

there, but you know, the but

39:07

the river had been taken over by

39:09

by all the tourists and day

39:12

trippers. And so it just feels,

39:14

Yeah, there's just so much that of

39:17

value that we

39:20

can we can take from

39:23

this time. And

39:25

and I've been hearing that so much from

39:28

from people as well. You know, you

39:30

both used the word adapt

39:33

or adaptation. I feel like that comes up in every

39:35

conversation I have. And also

39:38

that sense of in the slowing

39:40

down, that connection with the natural

39:43

world and with nature and with and with

39:45

noticing, you know, noticing

39:48

noticing the sounds of our children, um,

39:50

noticing spring

39:53

slowly emerging, or

39:55

and noticing the way that nature is changing, the way

39:58

the sky looks different. And yeah,

40:01

well, I hope that the next time

40:03

we speak it will be in person.

40:05

That would be nice. Yes, I

40:07

would love that, I went too.

40:10

Well, we will and that that will happen.

40:12

We will, we will sit pool side somewhere

40:16

um pedicured

40:19

toes. That's why or

40:24

not doesn't matter or not exactly

40:27

exactly, but maybe we will I mean, I

40:30

my son who's twenty one and at home. I

40:32

realized I never would have had this kind of time with

40:35

him ever again in

40:37

his life. And while you have younger kids

40:39

in there under your roof, you wouldn't have

40:41

had seven with them. It just

40:43

wouldn't have happened. Um. Now,

40:45

I've been thinking about that whole lot. Yeah,

40:48

yeah, I mean I feel like we

40:50

we will look back at

40:52

certain of the

40:55

gifts of this time with nostalgia.

40:58

Not nostalgia for the time, not nostalgia for the

41:00

suffering, not nostalgia for all of the awfulness

41:02

and the difficulty and the anxiety, but

41:05

for the togetherness

41:07

or the um the noticing

41:10

of blessings, the noticing of blessings

41:12

whatever they are in our lives. Mm

41:14

hmm. It's beautiful. Yeah, that's

41:17

that's that's exactly

41:19

it. Well, thank

41:21

you so much, Story and Kate and

41:24

I love following you and your tribe

41:26

and seeing what you're up to and um and

41:29

just look forward to ongoing conversation.

41:32

Thank you so much for having us. Yeah,

41:34

it's a real it's such a treat. Thank

41:36

you, Danny.

41:54

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