0:07

Welcome to blue fires podcast,

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where we entertain you with tales of famous

0:12

people. You've never heard of each

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week. Steve Lottie Arlinda will guide

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you through the centuries to shine the spotlight.

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Once again, on entertainers, that history

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is forgotten. Join us

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for drama interviews and

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the occasional chat over a bottle of wine.

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As we discovered that the topics of plague

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poverty and overnight stardom

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are not unique to the 21st century.

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Today's special guest is actor and writer,

0:45

Patterson, Joseph, possibly

0:47

best known for his television work, which

0:49

includes peep show law and order UK.

0:52

And most recently playing the ambitious

0:54

politician, Kamala Hadley in the BBC's

0:56

noughts and crosses Patterson also

0:59

has an impressive track record of theater work,

1:02

including seasons at both the Royal Shakespeare

1:04

company and the national theater.

1:07

He's also the author of Julius Caesar

1:09

in me exploring Shakespeare's African

1:11

play and sunchoke an act

1:13

of remembrance, the solo play

1:16

based on the life of Charles Ignatius

1:18

show , who is the subject of today's podcast.

1:46

[inaudible]

1:46

Well PMT Patterson in if , um,

1:48

who is going to chat to us today

1:50

about a very famous person.

1:52

We haven't had to go out , um,

1:56

Charles Ignatius center ,

1:58

You have this man , uh

2:02

, above my dining room table, reminding

2:04

me all the time to get back in the office and

2:06

write more stuff about him.

2:08

He looks like a real inspiration

2:12

20 years of it . In fact, I've been at it. Have

2:14

you really? Yeah, I started in 1999

2:16

or thereabouts, but we can talk about that. Yeah , absolutely.

2:19

So how did you discover him? Okay.

2:22

Um, so let me do the

2:24

, uh, the glamorous version. Uh,

2:27

I'm working with Tilda Swinton , uh,

2:31

on the beach in Thailand and we're playing cards

2:33

, um, and not for money. And

2:35

she said to me, what

2:38

would you like to be remembered for when you're,

2:41

when you die? It's like,

2:43

you know, not a casual question, but it's still between

2:45

two . Um, so I said, Oh,

2:48

and I immediately said this without

2:50

even thinking about it. I said

2:52

that I want to write a, play,

2:56

a book series

3:00

film about black Britain

3:02

before 1948 and

3:05

my parent's generation, the Windrush

3:07

generation, because I'd heard so many stories

3:09

about it. And I want young black people

3:11

to feel art of British history

3:14

and not just the negative , um,

3:16

slavery part . And

3:18

she said, Oh , great. Well, did you go do that?

3:20

I can't even remember what she said. She was going to the I'm sure she's achieved

3:23

knowing her, but , um, that's

3:25

what started the ball rolling. And that would have been 1998,

3:29

started the ball rolling and me trying to do something

3:31

about it. So 99, I got myself

3:33

a bunch of books as I could possibly

3:35

find on black British history. Lot

3:38

of them are very good. The one that

3:40

really struck home was a book by a lady

3:42

called Gretchen Gertz center is now

3:44

a friend of mine. I'm happy to say is

3:47

an African-American author and

3:49

historian. And Gretchen wrote a book called black

3:51

England. And in black

3:53

England, I discovered Septimius

3:56

Severus , um , Roman governor

3:58

, uh, governor of Britain and

4:01

the second I think , or third century, a

4:03

D that century. And

4:06

he second centric Libya

4:09

. This man was from Libya and he was our governor

4:11

for many, many years. And when he,

4:13

Is he the guy who built the balls around the city

4:15

of London?

4:16

No, he was more , um, protecting

4:19

, um, the North from the Scott's

4:22

then known as the , the Caledonian , but

4:26

he was , um, responsible

4:29

for rebuilding Hadrian's wall , uh,

4:32

and protecting and almost giving up

4:34

, uh , invading the North and

4:37

making it a separate, making it

4:39

clear more of a separate country. Um, but when,

4:41

so here's his story was inmate amazing. And then

4:43

John blank , who was the trumpet in

4:46

the quarter pounder, the eighth was also a fascinating

4:49

story. And then I came to

4:51

, um, you know, the 18th century

4:53

and there's this portrait and the portrait

4:56

as , uh , you know, you've seen from what I've just shown

4:58

you is really striking because

5:01

it's a black man it's 1768,

5:04

it's Gainsborough. And he's painted him in

5:07

Barth in a hundred minutes and he's painted

5:09

him beautifully his skin,

5:11

even though it's a dark portrait. And obviously

5:13

it's aged with years. His

5:15

face is glowing. I mean, really

5:18

glowing and his waistcoat,

5:20

which is deep and red and rich

5:22

and with a sort of sip , uh , gold

5:25

braiding is sumptuous. And

5:27

so this man has been painted

5:30

with his hand leisurely

5:32

in his waistcoat as a sort of man

5:34

of leisure when he was a valet valid

5:37

to the Duke of Montagu. So I

5:39

was fascinated by him just by the portrait.

5:41

And then after I investigated his life, that

5:43

was it. I was sold and have been for the last 20

5:46

years.

5:46

Just looking at that portrait, he looks so dignified

5:49

as well. Doesn't he has

5:51

got a twinkle in his eye.

5:53

Smile. Yeah, he's got a little smile . I mean,

5:56

what's , you could argue what did he have to smile about?

5:58

But I think the fact that he was having his portrait

6:01

painted by the greatest that

6:03

ever lived by that app at that point would

6:06

have given him a real sense of where

6:09

he'd come from, because remember , uh

6:12

, I don't know if you remember, but if you don't know, he was born

6:14

on a slave ship. As far as we know, 29,

6:17

his parents died very young. He

6:19

was sent from Columbia where

6:21

he was living at three years old to

6:23

live with three spinsters in Greenwich.

6:26

And then I think they are, some people say it might be the leg

6:29

sisters , Ellie , double G , but their dates

6:31

aren't right. Um, and he

6:34

was brought up as a little pet, like a lot of those 18th

6:36

century, 19th century, even kids

6:38

and before black kids were used as pets

6:41

in portraits, in drawing rooms

6:44

to look as if you had money, you had, you

6:46

know, that was him.

6:48

So they used to dress him up and we

6:51

dressed him up.

6:52

It made him a sort of spectacle

6:55

because he was also

6:57

obviously quite witty, even though he couldn't

6:59

read because they wouldn't teach him how to

7:01

read because they felt, and a lot of people did at

7:03

that time. But it spoiled slaves.

7:06

If you taught them how to read

7:08

Ideas about this station is about

7:10

this station ideas full-stop dangerous.

7:14

Yeah. She didn't want him having ideas. And

7:17

so he ran away from home when he was about seven,

7:19

six or seven, and he was found fortuitously

7:22

in Blackheath park by John,

7:24

do you come on to get , he was a very kindly

7:26

man. And he really was an advocate

7:29

for black , uh , intelligence, black

7:31

freedom. I don't know. That sounds strange

7:33

for us now, but there was a time when people fought

7:36

at the status quo was it was correct. And

7:39

that black people didn't have intelligence. So

7:41

there he was, and he'd done it several times with other

7:44

people, other black people, John

7:46

Duke Montague . So he took him up and he basically

7:48

sent him home course, but gave him books

7:51

secretly. So it was a bit of an audit

7:54

in that he learned a lot while

7:56

he was still with the ladies. He ended up working

7:58

for the , the Montague family for most

8:00

of his life. In fact, apart from a period that

8:03

my novel really deals with , uh , the

8:05

new novel that just written deals

8:08

with that period of his life that we know nothing about. So

8:10

it's a sort of imagined that there may be

8:12

an imaginary journey through st Joe's life

8:14

up to the point where it becomes part

8:16

of the Duke's household. So

8:18

when he grows up, he is

8:21

an accomplished musician. By this point, he

8:23

is a writer. He writes a book

8:26

on the theory of music. He writes

8:28

to the newspapers about art, about

8:31

the American revolution, about the French revolution.

8:33

He was a real monarchist, obviously work . Um,

8:36

so he would protect them and he would , he was very afraid

8:38

of the French revolution, but he got too

8:40

fat and gouty, unfortunately, too overweight

8:43

and gouty to be the

8:45

valet . So they gave him an annuity , um,

8:48

which was a good sign at the time. But 30 pounds.

8:50

I know it sounds ridiculous, but you

8:52

know, a good, a few thousand,

8:54

maybe 35,000. Anyway,

8:57

he puts a deposit down and buys a shock,

8:59

buys, a shock , and the shop

9:03

allows him to be a

9:05

proprietor. And if you have property

9:07

and you're male variable

9:10

in that, you'd be male, but you have property.

9:12

You can vote in 1774

9:15

and 1718. And he did. So he becomes

9:17

the first black man that we know on record to

9:19

vote in an election in this country. And

9:22

he dies the year, but he votes last

9:24

time in 17, 18 . Um, the rather

9:26

extraordinary life really brief 51,

9:29

Just 51. Yes . He

9:32

certainly patched allotting because didn't

9:34

he do some acting as well. He was friends with

9:36

David Garrick.

9:37

See our information about him is so sketchy

9:40

and mainly comes from a guy called Joseph Jekyll. He

9:42

was his , I suppose, a biographer,

9:44

but really he wrote a preface

9:47

to the letters essentially about hundreds

9:49

and hundreds of letters. And they

9:51

were published in 1782

9:53

, two years after he died, made a lot of money for his family.

9:56

But Joseph Jekyll has this very brief.

9:58

Some say, you know, borderline racist

10:01

, um, kind of preface. I

10:04

think we have to think contextually because

10:06

he was , uh , obviously as an advocate. So

10:08

what he's saying is what he thinks is

10:10

what , uh, what would, what would

10:12

cause the most sensation, but also

10:14

would lead people to be a bit more antislavery

10:17

and he sort of sensationalized this story.

10:19

So we don't know all the facts, the correct parts.

10:23

Um, yeah. So he talks about this Jackal

10:26

and what Jackal says is this, he says, sancocho

10:30

attempted a career upon the stage

10:32

with due to a

10:35

speech defect, that

10:37

fact , that career failed. Now,

10:39

of course, my play Santo

10:42

and act of remembrance . I talk about this moment and I address the

10:44

audience and say, I could have been a very fine actor

10:46

if it wasn't for my , um , well, it's

10:48

obvious, isn't it it's really obvious. And I

10:51

could feel the audience going, I'm going to say, come

10:53

on. It's obvious why I played as

10:55

the nose on your face. And it

10:57

is because of my, and the audience

10:59

sometimes go

11:02

skin and I go, what speech

11:04

, speech impediments. And

11:06

then I , as if I'm thinking about it, maybe

11:09

you're right about that. The idea

11:11

that he owned and the obstacle to

11:13

his acting career was the fact that he had

11:15

a little, you know, whatever the speaks to paper , it was

11:17

in the play. I make it a little less, very mild,

11:20

but I don't think that's the case, but he definitely

11:22

did try. Um , the thought

11:24

is that perhaps Garrick auditioned him

11:27

or even set up a play because they would do that. They

11:29

would do some plays on spec and see if people liked

11:32

it. So that's a possibility, but

11:34

again, we can only imagine,

11:36

Seems to have been a guy who would have tried

11:38

anything, you know , it's just,

11:41

you know , full of beans. Really.

11:43

He was, I mean, he's probably affected me more

11:45

than any character I've ever played, I suppose, because

11:47

I've lived with them longer. And I kind of

11:49

kind of created a version of him. Of course, it's my version.

11:51

I don't know him and put , somebody wants to do it.

11:54

And people are trying to do to the films and TV

11:56

things where he appears, I'm very happy

11:58

with his name getting out there. But

12:00

the, but the, the thing about Santo

12:03

actually to say about his acting

12:05

is that he is a man

12:07

who is suffused

12:09

with artistic sensibility at

12:12

a time when black people were not really given full

12:14

expression. So music wasn't Avenue

12:16

because they were musicians working in the theaters Garrick

12:18

and mr. Foot Samuel full to the Haymarket

12:21

or using musicians that were musicians and the

12:24

coat of the Kings, you know,

12:26

they would have been since Henry the X times

12:28

sort of fashion, they were actors. He

12:30

will be black. Um, I

12:33

would suspect bit parks , but there we

12:35

are. Um, so his

12:37

music, his acting,

12:40

his writing are all

12:42

for me, indicators that

12:44

he wants is to have a voice and artistic

12:46

voice. He wanted to be free

12:49

to be able to express himself artistically, because

12:52

if you think about it, poverty

12:54

and oppression really often

12:56

leads to people, just subsisting,

12:59

just trying to get by. And art

13:02

is the sort of province

13:04

of the allegedly the

13:07

luxury I can sit here and write. I mean,

13:09

even myself working class background,

13:11

immigrant parent background, but

13:13

I spend, you know, days just

13:16

sitting right in contemplating. I

13:18

couldn't do that if I was subsisting and I

13:20

was just living hand to mouth. So being

13:23

a servant, being a slave, being black

13:25

and being working class means

13:28

that your whole life is geared around

13:30

working. So having the time

13:32

to paint and to draw

13:34

and to sing and to dance

13:36

is quite a rare thing. And

13:38

an act of freedom. My opinion do

13:40

I think is why is output so prolific?

13:45

He wrote loads and loads of songs and mostly pop song

13:49

pops on the jigs, their reels,

13:52

the odd sort of ballad , but then minuets

13:54

little dance numbers.

13:57

They're lovely. They

13:59

really are

14:21

King in the second novel to put a bit of

14:24

is the lyrics of one of his songs in that

14:26

. But could I find any lyrics apart from

14:28

friendship, which is much later than areas I'm

14:30

writing and friendships source of joy. She is a beautiful

14:33

song. Everything else is

14:35

, um, musical and

14:37

, uh, uh , dance annotation.

14:40

So he'll say there'll be a piece of music.

14:42

I think one of them's called , um,

14:45

lady Montague's real, perhaps, but

14:47

then he goes all round back again.

14:50

Each gentleman turned his partner that

14:52

along just sort of bow and rigor,

14:54

dunes step. Nobody knows what that is, but

14:57

alls and a rigor dune step. So I sort

14:59

of dance with the audience when I'm doing

15:01

that, but those are his words.

15:03

And he's got loads of songs where he goes, so

15:06

the first couple go to the

15:08

right, the second couple of go to

15:10

the left, the third couple goes down the center, they turn

15:13

, they balance , they swap partners and

15:15

he, this is what he does. So his look

15:17

, his mind was that sort of artistic

15:20

performer mind. And he was a sort of choreographer

15:23

as well as a writer. So there is, I call it

15:25

a sort of militant joy is

15:28

that despite everything I'm going to write

15:30

some dance

15:33

In spite of it. I love that. And

15:35

that's, you hear so much today as well about

15:37

the working class actors

15:40

and people not actually getting a break

15:42

and no one's actually got , and it's time.

15:44

Time is our most precious commodity. And

15:47

if you have to work, you don't have time to

15:49

create

15:50

Absolutely true. There was a survey done by

15:52

radio for , I think a little while ago. So

15:54

new report saying that the

15:56

majority of all the literature

15:59

that has been written in the last hundred

16:01

years were demographically

16:04

very narrow , um , as in people

16:06

of a certain class. Yeah.

16:09

And it's sad , isn't it? Because they don't

16:11

get old , then I sort of word

16:14

of mouth family, but then

16:16

they're the richness of our country. So we only get one

16:18

demographic, even if it was, you know, we

16:21

might admire that demographic. But if we only get one

16:23

demographic telling stories, then

16:25

that's not the picture of the nation.

16:28

Why? In some ways I delved into

16:30

writing a novel and latte

16:33

because I felt like I don't have

16:36

a twist version of

16:38

Santeria . In my hand , I don't have a David Copperfield version,

16:41

but yet his life is

16:43

equivalent to theirs. And there's a real story.

16:46

So I wrote the novel because

16:49

I loved those books as a young

16:51

person, reading them. I was immersed in

16:53

them and I believed in them and

16:55

they have affected me and I want

16:58

that to happen for everybody. So then when they look

17:00

at the last 200 years of British history,

17:03

they see it in color. Do you know what I mean? And I'm

17:05

not saying that as a kind of tweeting , but I want

17:07

you to see the Indians who were here for

17:09

hundreds of years, the Chinese, I

17:11

want you to see the Irish and what they were up to. I

17:13

want you to see the working class properly,

17:16

not just served from a distance like

17:18

factory mites or like, you know, fielding

17:20

might be observed from a distance

17:22

peripheral characters, comic characters. Often I

17:25

wanted, I wanted to show

17:27

the color of the United

17:30

Kingdom actually , um, from

17:33

1707 when he was inaugurated, it has always

17:35

been. And even before that, of course the studio

17:38

shooting era, it was, it's always been

17:40

a multi ethnic society,

17:44

always . And people don't realize when

17:47

it comes to glossy , to be honest, it's getting bit

17:49

political, but then it becomes even

17:52

become indignant about people rewriting,

17:54

as they say, rewriting history, but historians

17:57

gathered together sort of against Miranda

17:59

Kaufman and the group of people that I, I

18:02

sort of am involved in and support and

18:04

saying you're rewriting British history. Yes

18:08

we are. Because it needs

18:10

to be,

18:10

Yes, there's a reason for that so

18:13

much has been left out.

18:16

So let's let those voices

18:18

that were not heard be heard because then we get

18:20

a richer picture of who we are and it should hopefully

18:23

make us all feel sort of

18:25

less antagonistic towards

18:27

the stranger because the stranger won't be so strange

18:29

as you realize they have a long history possibly

18:33

even longer than your families. You know , if you

18:35

find your family came, you know, they were Hugo's

18:37

and they came from France in the, you

18:39

know , the , in the 18th century, then

18:42

you might not have been here as long as somebody whose relative

18:45

is John blank. You know, who's been here since

18:47

15, 15 years.

18:49

I haven't my ancestors ravish

18:51

. They came over in the 19

18:53

hundreds very early in life. Wow.

18:57

There you are ,

18:59

Uh , recent immigrants in some ways, you know,

19:02

put in perspective. But if, you know, if we

19:04

all knew that, I mean the Irish community really,

19:07

as far as I know, and I need to do some more investigation

19:09

really looks after , um,

19:11

the black community in a way, because there was

19:13

an area of London called seven dials.

19:16

It's aware, but it's, it's a bit Shishi.

19:18

Now it's a bit posh

19:20

. Whereas back in the day it was a no-go area.

19:23

It was a slum. And the people who

19:25

lived there, obviously the working class, English,

19:28

Irish, and they

19:31

never go area. It means that the authorities wouldn't go in

19:33

there and we'd go do surveys. How many people are living

19:35

in this house? And they didn't know what the hell was going on

19:37

in there. But the rumor is

19:40

that , um, runaway slaves and

19:42

they were Legionnaires so many runaway

19:44

slaves in London. Uh, we

19:46

know that because of the, well, the advert , the

19:48

advertisements, as they said , the advertisements that they would

19:50

put these fly posters on walls,

19:53

everywhere, and foreigners, it comes like the

19:55

city is covered. I'm sure they're exaggerating slightly. So

19:57

the city is covered in fly posters for runaway

19:59

slave , um, uh , young

20:01

Negro, 17 Kofi

20:04

answers to the name , uh , Mungo

20:07

scene , uh, at Blackfriars please report

20:09

to the ships in , uh , to captain

20:12

Froggatt who will give you one Guinea reward, or

20:15

Jamaima slave walks with a lamp , has a scar

20:17

over her left eye last seen . So, and

20:20

so th th B , where did they go?

20:23

Where did they go? Because

20:26

they had to go somewhere and they had to be safe

20:28

enough not to be press ganged onto ships

20:30

, you know, for having no job and having no master.

20:33

So seven dials would have been the place to be,

20:36

you'd go and go in there and disappear. You can still work

20:40

way back in at night. You know, the

20:43

police, you know, there wasn't an immigration service,

20:45

so they could disappear in Irish.

20:47

And the blacks were very linked, which

20:49

is also why I believe the music would have been

20:52

linked to. And I have a fair bit of music in , in

20:54

the , in the book that I've written , um

20:57

, because I've always imagined these black

20:59

frolics black Hawks , as people

21:01

have described them as these gatherings.

21:04

And they would say they were playing their instruments. And they'd say

21:06

some of the instruments we wouldn't say, Oh , and they'd say, and

21:08

they were there with their , with their Negro women.

21:11

Well, they might've been, but what if they

21:13

, they would have been, but they would, they also marry

21:15

to whites and lots of black people to whites.

21:17

So they would have been there too . And then they living

21:19

in the Irish, the Irish would have been there and they love

21:22

a bit of a Kaylee . They certainly do Africans,

21:24

a little bit of a Katy . There would have been Indian people as well,

21:26

but they've been playing so that music,

21:28

which we don't know anything about because they weren't interested

21:31

in it. The historians of

21:34

that demographic, they weren't interested about the coffin.

21:37

I want to recreate that. And I have it,

21:39

I think in part in the book, this

21:41

richness that we know nothing about, and it just,

21:44

it should make us, it suddenly makes me feel more confident

21:46

when I walked down the street as a black person

21:48

here, but it should make all of us feel more confident

21:51

in the environment we're in. Cause it's not much different

21:53

to, you know, the 18th century

21:55

to what Samuel Johnson would've known as he

21:57

had a black , um, ostensibly,

22:01

you know , sort of servant, but he became his

22:03

ward and became his heir Samuel Johnson's

22:06

man servant, as it were , um,

22:09

Francis barber was born into kits and

22:11

came over here when he was probably 11

22:13

or so. Um, and

22:15

then went to see ran away. He sort of ran away from

22:18

home. What did his independence like any teenage boy

22:20

and then came back and looked after Johnson to

22:22

his death and given an annuity and

22:24

married and lived up in Litchfield where Johnson

22:28

richness , this wonderful richness is right, is

22:30

sitting right there. And without it, we

22:33

have a black and white picture of English

22:36

might be in CPS. Sometimes we'll meet and

22:38

we really delve, but actually in color,

22:40

it should be in color . We really should.

22:42

Couldn't agree more. And it's interesting

22:44

that seven dials were all

22:47

that illicit stuff was going

22:49

on just around the corner from Drury

22:51

lane where all the posh

22:53

people would have been going to the theater and the opera.

22:56

But you know, there was a sign on

22:58

windows , um, uh, an

23:00

Irish, an older Irish actor told me this when he came

23:03

to this country. And only if people know this,

23:05

but there used to be science on , um

23:07

, landladies normally landlady windows

23:10

saying, no, no Irish,

23:13

no blacks, no dogs honorable

23:15

. So you're walking past trying to get a place and

23:17

you see this, no blacks. Okay. But my

23:19

friend John said, well, what they actually used

23:22

to say sometimes was no Irish,

23:24

no blacks, no dogs, no actors. You

23:27

would have been stuffed to

23:32

me . That is , that's so hilarious

23:35

that there is a kind of , um,

23:37

shadow history that we

23:39

don't know anything about it. It's rich. It's funny.

23:42

It's co-operative now like

23:44

I'm , I'm sort of obsessed with it, I suppose, because we

23:46

such a divisive society moment,

23:49

but that's because we don't know where we've come from. I mean , if

23:52

somebody's going to live again , but I really do think

23:54

we don't know our history know

23:56

it well enough and we're not interested

24:00

in it enough and it may be. But if you add

24:02

these flavors, people will because they'll start to see the

24:04

world a bit like their world, as

24:06

opposed to this is the way these people used to do

24:08

stuff. And that's very different to mine. And I don't

24:10

have any relation to it. Actually it helps

24:12

people see their world as having

24:16

a long history rather than just, Oh, it's

24:18

only the 20th century. We've had all these different

24:20

ethnic groups here.

24:22

Certainly we, we always say

24:24

when we're doing the publicity for our little shows,

24:26

is that nothing ever changes. So,

24:29

you know , the theaters were closed during the plague.

24:31

They were closed again during the war and they're closed

24:34

now for another reason, you know, it's

24:37

um, and it's the same with families

24:39

and social history. You know, everyone has

24:41

the same problems, you know , every family fights

24:43

and whatever. Um, and

24:46

, and, and you're right, you know, to actually be able to see

24:48

all of it in color properly do wonderful

24:50

things. So key Pat, it when's

24:52

the novel out.

24:54

Well, that's the, that's the $60,000

24:57

question. It is hopefully

24:59

going to be, I want it to be out in 21, but it seems

25:01

that these things take time , um

25:04

, slowly , slowly grinding wheels, but I do have a

25:06

publisher who's interested and it's the publisher I wanted

25:08

to go with. So , um , I'm very happy

25:10

, uh, all being well and

25:12

it's quite a long novel. Um , and

25:15

uh, only half his life , uh

25:18

, I'm calling it volume one. Um , uh

25:20

, but

25:25

she, you know, I , I, I have, I

25:29

didn't know. I mean, I , I feel like , um, when

25:31

the novel comes out, it will be the right time, but it's probably

25:33

22. Right,

25:35

Right. And, and that the play

25:37

continues. I know

25:39

They continue to come out , hopefully

25:41

February, March 20, 21

25:44

at the lyric Hammersmith , beautiful,

25:46

beautiful theater and the main house, which

25:49

is rather big, I suppose, for a

25:51

motto drama, as they calling it nowadays , um

25:53

, rather big for one man show, it's

25:56

going to be distanced. So

25:58

actually we're probably in a , in a 500

26:00

or associates affair to probably only have 150

26:03

people in there, but

26:06

it's going to be interesting. It's a very audience participates

26:08

really sort of show. So I don't know.

26:10

I won't be able to dance with anybody because I won't be able to pick

26:12

anybody up and dance . Oh yeah.

26:16

Oh , the ladies will be crying. They've got

26:18

, I don't know, but I might

26:21

have to have a couple of ringers in the audience, a

26:24

couple of ringers , you know, just , we've never

26:26

met before. Have we met them ? No, dad.

26:29

Oh , yes. It's been done before

26:34

it has. And what did we call

26:36

him ? Did we call him Charles? We call him Ignatius.

26:40

I think most people couldn't stand show

26:42

and fair enough. But of course, you

26:45

know that he was surname

26:47

Sanchez, but he was baptized Charles

26:49

Mesias by the supposedly

26:51

by the Bishop of carpeting in Colombia

26:54

, after that shows of Jacqueline again, who

26:56

knows that's true. Why

26:59

a Bishop would be baptizing, a young black slave?

27:02

I don't know, but there's also

27:04

the possibility that he was a mixed

27:06

heritage. Um, it's

27:08

a hard possibility cause he's very dark skinned , but

27:11

he also has very

27:13

, um, his hair

27:15

is quite light as in, it's not

27:18

l ike properly tight curls. It's w hite a s l

27:20

ight pills. He could have been coming out with a high

27:22

and because he was about

27:25

avail it w ould've had to l earn h airdressing. For

27:27

the other hand. He m ight've been mixed heritage. I

27:29

don't know. It's a , it's

27:31

not a thing we're ever g oing t o find out. Please

27:34

agree. He is not as

27:36

straightforward as, as, u h, as he would appear.

27:38

We c alled h im. S anto i s c alled c entral because the

27:40

sisters w ho w e went to live with

27:42

thought he looked like the f at servant

27:45

I 've t aught, u m, in,

27:47

u h, in, i n S avannah, u h, book,

27:50

u m, S andra Panza, u h, so they c

27:52

alled h im S andra, but h is actual n ame's Charles Ignatius baptized

27:54

by apparently a B ishop in

27:56

C olumbia.

27:58

And , um , how do you, you

28:00

call him, what do you know him as?

28:02

Um, uh , sometimes I'm cheeky and I couldn't be gay . Um,

28:06

imagine that , um , his , his beautiful

28:08

wife calls in ag , but

28:10

that's just me making it up. It might be respectful

28:12

. Um, I suspect he was called

28:14

Charles for the most part for centuries

28:17

, but most people would have addressed

28:19

him as essential. Um,

28:21

except that's super intimate. And then they call it , I

28:23

think they call it the child. That's again,

28:26

we don't know.

28:27

You obviously got a real connection to him in , do

28:29

you, do you take him home with you after you've done

28:31

the show or

28:35

I bumped my head ever eating anyway

28:37

, he is. He is

28:39

ubiquitous. He's everywhere. He

28:42

is what I'm writing about. He's often when

28:44

I get interviewed about he is my

28:47

Twitter handle. I mean, everything Sanchez,

28:50

I've got another person who might want to do a

28:53

book about, and I wonder if I'll become,

28:55

as I don't think I will, as obsessed with things

28:57

is very different. The characters, mine , a guy called Julius, Noreen's

29:00

the president of Tanzania. Uh

29:02

, but such as completing the become may

29:04

an opera company. And I bought some red shoes at some

29:07

point, which I think 10

29:09

years before I would never have dreamt of doing,

29:11

but because Sasha was such a man about town,

29:14

he liked dressing up . He didn't want to hide away. Yes. I'm

29:16

a black man in town . Yes. I'm dressed

29:18

by me and I know you're going to insult me, but I'm

29:20

looking down good on-site while you did it. And

29:23

so I think I dress slightly more flamboyant, but

29:25

not now you can see me, but

29:28

, um , I normally dress , um

29:30

, quite flamboyant and I think that sign shows

29:32

. Yes .

29:33

It's a nice thing. So

29:36

the , um , I'm going to let you go

29:38

in a minute. You'll be delighted to hear

29:41

the , you

29:44

say the nicest things. Um , so

29:46

I just want to make sure we know

29:48

that that's the lyric Hammersmith.

29:50

Have you got a date yet?

29:52

Yes, but it is tentative.

29:55

So I will just, I will just say

29:57

the last week of February

29:58

And something that I have to ask you, because

30:00

I ask everybody on this podcast is

30:03

your fantasy dinner party.

30:05

Okay. Well, I'd like to invite Sandra

30:07

obviously. And his wife, I

30:09

really want to know about women.

30:12

Don't get much say in

30:14

history, if

30:17

they write it themselves, it's usually a diary

30:19

or journal and it gets either

30:21

lost or disrespected

30:23

in some way. So an story as

30:25

a black woman, so

30:27

skew , anything we know about her is

30:30

he loved her to the very

30:32

end, adored her spoke

30:34

about her as his better, half his other

30:36

half, his other soul, his best

30:39

self, you know, I mean, he loves

30:41

her to bits that's

30:43

who I'd want to invite . And then , uh , so those two,

30:46

those two definitely obviously Julius in their area . Cause I'd

30:48

like to find out how he, how he

30:51

managed to bring Tanzania

30:53

from under the British colonial

30:56

rule to have to the first African

30:58

country. And one of only two, I think can

31:00

chose an African language as

31:02

the national language.

31:05

He translated Julius Caesar,

31:07

merchant of Venice and make Beth into

31:10

key Swahili to prove that it was

31:13

good enough for the best of

31:15

English literature. So I'd like to sit

31:17

and chat with him about that. Uh,

31:20

who else would I have? So that's for those,

31:25

for the time being

31:26

That's nice. It's small, small, but select

31:28

gathering. Yeah.

31:29

I don't like huge gatherings anyway. So it would be good. I can

31:31

really interrogate them.

31:33

Yeah. And I'm sure they'd have

31:35

quite a lot to say to each other as well. Yeah.

31:39

Was Mandela's hero . The

31:41

first thing he did and in his first speech,

31:43

I think after getting out, he thanked him

31:45

for always help because the ANC in exile,

31:48

I mean their headquarters was in Dallas

31:51

alone in terms of , and

31:53

uh , he suffered for it. He was

31:55

bombed, he was undermined,

31:58

not a terrorism by the British intelligence, unfortunately

32:00

in American intelligence thinking he was

32:03

a communist. But one thing to say

32:05

that the communist , so he, he, that would

32:07

just be, yeah, I would love that as identify

32:10

small, but I can really get into it.

32:13

Yeah. But that would be great. Well, I should

32:15

come a waitress for you so you can spend all your time

32:17

with your guests.

32:18

It could be wrong. You can be my fifth

32:20

guest interviewing

32:23

so you can interview them.

32:26

Oh dear. Well, thank you.

32:36

Thank you .

32:36

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