0:00

Some of us fight a constant temperature

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battle of bedtime. Too hot,

0:05

too cold, feeding, feet

0:07

out. These uncomfortable nights can

0:09

cause you to wake up multiple times and

0:11

ruin a good night's sleep. And as the

0:13

seasons change, it's a good time to look at

0:15

how your temperature affects your sleep. The

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0:32

This is GPS, the global public

0:35

Square. Welcome to all of you in the United

0:37

States and around the world. I'm Farid

0:39

Zakaria coming to you from New York.

0:43

Today on the pro ramp. US

0:47

Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin

0:49

joins me exclusively. We'll

0:52

talk about the war in Ukraine and how it is

0:54

going. Putin's nuclear

0:56

threats and the annexation of

0:58

Ukraine's lands and about

1:00

fears over a Chinese attack on

1:03

Taiwan. Also,

1:06

just what is Vladimir Putin

1:08

thinking? I

1:10

will talk to Mikhail Kotokovsky once

1:13

Russia's richest man who knew

1:15

the Russian president well before

1:18

Putin jail.

1:22

Finally, the new term of the supreme

1:25

court starts tomorrow. And

1:28

I will give you a sneak peek of my

1:30

newest document supreme

1:33

power inside the highest court

1:35

in the land, airs tonight at

1:37

eight PM eastern and Pacific.

1:40

But

1:40

first, here's my take. Italy

1:43

and Sweden are about as different

1:45

as two European countries can get.

1:47

One is Catholic, Mediterranean, sunny,

1:50

and chaotic. the other Protestant, Northern

1:53

Chile, and ordered. Over

1:55

the decades, they've had very different political

1:57

trajectories. But now both

1:59

are witnessing

1:59

the striking rise of parties

2:02

that have some connections to fascism.

2:06

In each country, this rise has coincided with

2:08

a collapse of support for the center

2:10

left, and it all centers

2:12

on an issue that the Biden administration

2:14

would do well to take very seriously

2:17

immigration. Georgia

2:20

Maloney, the likely next Prime Minister of

2:22

Italy, is a charismatic forty five

2:24

year old politician. A

2:27

campaign promised her familiar attack

2:30

on the forces of globalization and

2:32

a comforting story that she would somehow

2:34

bring back the good old days before

2:36

George Soros ruined everything. In

2:39

a video that went viral, she

2:41

says she's proud of all the things that globalists

2:43

want you to be ashamed of. be

2:45

Christian, a mother, Italian, etcetera.

2:49

A big part of her actual program

2:51

is immigration. Nations

2:53

only exist if there are borders

2:56

and those are defended. She says promising

2:58

a naval blockade if that is what

3:00

it takes to stop the flow of illegal

3:02

migrants from the Mediterranean. The

3:05

appeal of Sweden Democrats, the far

3:07

right party, also centers around

3:10

immigration. The party

3:12

talks a great deal about the rise of crime,

3:14

gang violence, and abuse of the country's

3:16

generous welfare state. but

3:18

its main campaign proposal was a

3:20

thirty point plan designed

3:23

to turn Sweden, which has arguably

3:25

one of the most generous immigration systems

3:27

in Europe into the most restrictive.

3:30

It is time to put Sweden first,

3:32

says Jimmy Atkinson, the dynamic

3:35

forty three year old leader of Sweden Democrats.

3:38

There is lots of demagogues in

3:40

these two politicians and their parties,

3:43

but there is also an important truth

3:45

at the heart of their appeal. Immigration

3:48

in many European countries is out

3:50

of control. By out of

3:52

control, I do not mean it is too

3:54

high It's impossible to say what the

3:57

right number is for any given country.

3:59

I mean that migration is now largely

4:01

taking place in a chaotic manner

4:04

with massive surges and flows, rampant

4:07

human smuggling and crime, and a

4:09

total breakdown of the legal system

4:11

by which countries evaluate and admit

4:14

applicants. Sweden now has

4:16

about twenty percent of its population foreign

4:18

born which is much higher than the United

4:21

States where that number is about fourteen

4:23

percent America

4:25

is different from Europe. American

4:27

identity is political, while European

4:29

country's national identity, at least

4:32

historically, has been based on

4:34

ethnicity, religion, and culture.

4:37

Either way, there

4:37

are limits to how many people

4:40

a country can absorb. About

4:42

five percent of the US population was

4:44

foreign born in the nineteen seventies. Since

4:47

then, that number has almost tripled.

4:49

Even so, people can be convinced that

4:51

large numbers of outsiders can be assimilated

4:54

and absorbed What enrages

4:56

them is the sense that people no

4:58

longer become immigrants through

5:00

a process that the host country

5:02

controls but rather by

5:04

crossing the border illegally, claiming

5:07

asylum status, gaining

5:09

entry, and then simply sticking

5:11

around. and

5:13

that fear is justified.

5:16

The American asylum system has broken

5:18

down. It was designed after

5:20

World War two in the wake of the Holocaust

5:23

to take in people who faced immediate

5:25

and dire persecution. Today,

5:28

many people seeking asylum face

5:31

hardships but much like

5:33

those that have traditionally led

5:35

people to seek a better life here.

5:37

Poverty, crime, disease, dislocation,

5:41

They are deeply deserving of dignity

5:43

and decent treatment. But

5:46

anyone claiming asylum for

5:48

only those reasons is abusing

5:50

the system in order to bypass

5:52

the normal immigration process. And

5:55

that process in America is now utterly

5:57

dysfunctional. Already clogged

5:59

and

5:59

understaffed, Donald Trump

6:02

deliberately jammed it up even

6:04

more. to the point that routine business

6:06

visa applications from countries

6:08

like India can take months. Students

6:11

cannot enter the United States even after

6:13

getting scholarships. And work visa

6:16

applications now rest on the chance

6:18

of applicants winning a lottery,

6:20

literally. The Biden

6:23

administration is going into this midterm

6:25

with a strong hand. It

6:27

could be undone by this one issue.

6:29

It's found an intelligent way to speed

6:32

up the consideration of asylum request,

6:34

but it still feels woefully inadequate to

6:36

the backlog at hand. There

6:39

are more than six hundred and seventy thousand

6:41

people living in America waiting

6:43

for their asylum applications to be

6:45

considered. Biden needs

6:47

to find a way to demonstrate that his administration

6:50

is taking control of immigration in

6:52

general and the border in particular.

6:55

then he can propose the obvious compromise

6:58

that could appeal to most Americans. A

7:01

better, faster, more predictable

7:03

legal immigration system but

7:05

a tougher, more effective way to

7:08

restrict illegal immigration. Or

7:11

else, the populist right will

7:13

use this issue. to keep gaining

7:15

ground in America just as it

7:17

has in Italy and Sweden. Go

7:20

to CLN dot com slash freed for a link

7:22

to my Washington Post column this week. and

7:24

let's get started.

7:35

I

7:36

want to start today's show with my exclusive

7:38

interview with the Secretary of Defense, Lloyd

7:40

Austin. Austin spent forty

7:43

one years in the army finishing up

7:45

as commander of CENTCOM. When

7:47

we spoke on Friday, secretary Austin

7:49

was in Hawaii, where he held meetings

7:51

with Indo Pacific allies about security

7:54

in that region. We'll get to all that in

7:56

a moment, particularly concerns about

7:58

China's military moves

8:00

but first,

8:01

Russia and Ukraine. Secretary

8:04

Austin, pleasure to have you on the program.

8:06

Thanks for for reading. It's a real pleasure

8:09

to be with you.

8:10

I

8:11

was in Ukraine a couple of weeks ago

8:13

and talked to a number of people there, including

8:15

your counterpart. One

8:17

of the things that they do say is

8:19

that they would dearly wish

8:21

for more American

8:23

weaponry, but particularly longer

8:25

range weapons The

8:28

Biden administration has been hesitant to

8:30

do that because of the fear

8:32

of these weapons essentially

8:34

reaching into Russia seeming

8:36

to be an attack on Russia. Now

8:39

my question to you is Russia has just

8:41

changed the game. They have a mixed all

8:44

this or the entire Don Bass,

8:46

all those four regions. So in effect,

8:48

any missile that hits Russian

8:50

positions in the Don Bass is

8:52

already an attack on Russia. In

8:55

this new circumstance, why

8:58

not lean forward give

8:59

the Ukraine's the longer range weaponry

9:02

they they were asking for,

9:03

you're by Russian law, you're hitting Russia

9:05

anyway when you when these missiles are hitting

9:07

the darn best. Well, two two things

9:09

here for Reid. As you've heard

9:11

us say, this referendum

9:14

is a sham. It's fiction. and

9:17

and we will never respect

9:20

their illegal annexation of Ukraine

9:23

territory. And nor

9:25

will most

9:27

of the the international community. So

9:30

that's one thing. the second thing is,

9:32

you know, I talked to my counterpart, the

9:34

Minister of Defense there in in

9:36

Ukraine, mister Ereznikov. routinely.

9:39

As a matter of fact, I just talked to him last night.

9:42

We talk about what's what's what's

9:44

how the fight's going, what's what's needed,

9:48

in what's upcoming. And

9:50

we've been very effective in providing them

9:52

those things that are

9:55

are very very effective on the battlefield, and

9:57

they have used them in the right way.

9:59

So they have

9:59

a capability with the high Mars and

10:02

the gilders, which is around at the Highmark's

10:05

employees, they they can range

10:07

targets in in almost

10:10

every piece of of Ukraine

10:12

territory. Now

10:13

part of the the annexation the

10:16

Russian the Russia's annexation is

10:19

the statement by president Putin that

10:22

he has now made twice, that

10:25

these territories are now Russian

10:27

and that he will defend these

10:29

Russian territories with every means

10:31

possible. And Russian media has

10:33

repeatedly interpreted

10:36

that to mean very specifically

10:38

nuclear weapons as has Dimitri

10:40

medvedev.

10:42

So

10:43

this seems to raise the stakes enormously.

10:46

What do you make of the fact that Vladimir

10:49

Putin is essentially saying at this

10:51

point that if there if

10:53

if

10:54

he feels there is an attack from

10:57

NATO, I suppose, on Russian

10:59

territory, which now includes all of the Don

11:01

Bass.

11:02

he reserves the right to

11:04

use nuclear weapons in response.

11:07

Again, it's an illegal claim.

11:11

It's an irresponsible statement.

11:14

These are nuclear

11:17

saber rattling is not a kind of thing

11:20

that we would expect to hear from

11:23

leaders of large countries

11:25

with with capability. And

11:27

so what what we can expect

11:29

to see, we can expect that the

11:31

Ukrainians will continue to

11:34

move forward an attempt to take

11:36

back all of the

11:39

territory within their

11:41

sovereign borders here. And so

11:44

I don't think that's going to stop and

11:46

we will continue to support them in their

11:48

efforts. Howard Bauchner:

11:49

What have you conveyed

11:51

to the Russians privately

11:53

just how dangerous

11:56

these threats are or what kind

11:58

of retaliation they might

11:59

expect from the west were there

12:02

to be a usage of tactical nuclear

12:04

weapons?

12:05

Well, you've heard people

12:10

in our in our leadership,

12:13

among our leadership that have said that we we have

12:16

communicated to them recently. Personally,

12:18

I've not talked to show show you in

12:21

in recent days, but I have talked to him

12:24

in the past, and I have addressed this very

12:26

issue. to and

12:28

warn to to not go down his path

12:31

and and and conduct this

12:33

type of irresponsible behavior.

12:36

So, yes, I have done that in the past

12:38

personally, but I've not talked to him recently.

12:41

Did you get the sense he he got it? He under

12:43

you know, you were you felt like he

12:45

heard your message? I do.

12:48

I think he heard my message. But,

12:50

you know, to be clear, The

12:53

guy who makes that decision, I mean, it's

12:55

one man. There there are no no

12:57

checks on on mister Putin

12:59

just as he made the irresponsible decision

13:02

to to invade Ukraine.

13:06

You know, he could make another decision. but

13:08

I don't see anything right now that that

13:10

would lead me to believe that he has made such

13:12

a decision.

13:14

Mister Secretary, what is your

13:16

analysis? of how

13:18

well Ukraine has done. We've

13:20

all seen and been stunned by this

13:23

recapture of territory the

13:25

Russians fleeing. But

13:27

what I want to ask you is question that everyone

13:29

has is that, you know, they've been able

13:31

to do a lot they'll probably be able

13:34

to push forward some more. But

13:36

is it likely that in the next few

13:38

months, the Ukrainians will be able to

13:41

really route the Russian position in

13:44

the in the down bas? Or are we likely

13:46

to get to some kind of stalemate where

13:48

Ukraine takes back some territory, but

13:51

Russia defends a lot of it, and they're

13:53

they're kind of stuck in a stalemate. It's

13:55

hard to predict what exactly

13:57

is gonna happen. I think the Ukrainians

14:00

have amazed the world

14:02

in terms of their ability to

14:05

to fight back their ability to

14:08

exercise initiative, their

14:11

commitment to the defense of of their democracy,

14:14

and that willingness to fight. has

14:17

rallied the international community in

14:20

in an effort to help provide

14:22

them the security assistance so that they can

14:24

continue to fight. They

14:26

they did a magnificent job early on.

14:29

They won the battle of Keith. We

14:31

saw a bit of a

14:34

slowdown, a stalemate as a battle

14:36

transition to the Don Bass and

14:38

it was defined by long

14:40

range fires. But then, you know, as

14:43

the as the Ukrainians began

14:45

to receive the high technology

14:47

like Haimars and employed

14:50

that technology the right

14:52

way and begin to conduct a

14:54

tax on things like logistical

14:57

stores and and command and control.

15:00

That's taking away taking away significant

15:02

capability from the from

15:04

the Russians. that's also changed the

15:07

dynamics and it's created an opportunity for

15:10

the Ukrainians to maneuver. So

15:13

what we're seeing now is kind of

15:15

a change in the Battlefield dynamics.

15:18

They've done very, very well in the Marquee

15:20

area and moved to

15:22

take advantage of opportunities. The

15:26

fight in the in the Kershun regions

15:28

going a bit slower, but they're making progress.

15:31

So they're they're getting the right

15:33

things and they're employing them the right way. So

15:35

it's not just about the equipment that you

15:38

that you have for Reed. It's about how you

15:40

employ that equipment. how you synchronize

15:43

things together to create battlefield effects

15:45

that then can create opportunities. And

15:49

they've done very, very well. In terms of

15:52

what will happen going forward, hard to

15:54

predict, but I would say

15:56

that whatever direction

15:59

that this goes in. We will

16:01

continue to provide security assistance

16:03

to the Ukrainians for as long as it

16:05

takes. We're all very hopeful that

16:08

they'll continue to make progress at the rate that

16:10

they have. But again, I

16:13

fought in enough wars

16:15

to to enough battles to to

16:17

know that no one

16:19

can really predict a particular outcome

16:22

of of any battle. You just have to focus

16:24

on doing the right things at

16:27

at the right time. And so we

16:29

we will continue to support the Ukraine

16:31

as you've heard our president say for as long

16:33

as it takes. Next

16:35

on GPS from Ukraine to

16:37

Taiwan, does the American Secretary

16:40

of Defense think that China will

16:42

attack the self governing island and

16:44

how will the United States respond to

16:47

the dust back in a moment.

16:50

Overwhelmed

16:52

by headlines this week, you may be asking

16:54

yourself which one should I really pay attention

16:56

to? I'm David Rhine, host of CNN's

16:58

one thing podcast. and I'm here to help.

17:00

Each Sunday joined me and a rotating cast

17:03

of CNN correspondents to make sense

17:05

of the news everyone's been talking about.

17:07

This week, CNN's Priscilla Alvarez tells

17:09

his wife, Florida's governor, sent a group of migrants

17:12

to Martha's Vineyard, and how it's shaping the

17:14

immigration debate. Listen to CNN one

17:16

thing, an Apple Podcast spotify iHeartRadio

17:19

or wherever you listen to podcasts.

17:22

the

17:23

Two weeks ago, president

17:26

Biden pledged on sixty minutes to

17:28

defend Taiwan if the island

17:30

were to be attacked. The man who

17:32

would actually have to oversee, manage,

17:34

and execute that defense is my

17:36

guest today, defense

17:37

secretary, Lloyd Austin.

17:40

I wanted to get his stake on the map.

17:43

President Biden said that if China

17:45

were to invade Taiwan, the United

17:48

States would come to its defense and

17:50

he was very categorical. American men

17:53

and women would fight to

17:55

deter that, to defend against that attack.

17:59

That has struck many people

18:01

as a line further than presidents

18:03

have have committed to

18:05

in the past. Are you preparing

18:08

the American military for

18:10

a

18:11

full out defense of Taiwan using

18:14

all America's means if there

18:17

were to be an innovation? The

18:18

president's been consistent in

18:22

his approach to this in what he said.

18:25

He's also said on a number of occasions

18:28

for read that our

18:30

China policy, one China

18:32

policy hasn't changed. In

18:35

addition to that, he said that that

18:38

it's -- we don't want to see a

18:41

unilateral change to the status quo.

18:44

And so again, we'll

18:46

continue to do what we've been doing

18:48

and working with our allies and partners

18:51

to make sure that that

18:53

we can maintain a free

18:55

and open Endo Pacific region. In

18:58

accordance with Taiwan Relations Act, we

19:01

We're committed to helping Taiwan develop

19:04

the capability to defend itself. And

19:06

that work has gone on

19:08

over time. It will continue into the future.

19:11

But as you said, mister Secretary, in

19:13

that very diplomatic answer, the Taiwan

19:16

Relations Act commits the United

19:18

States to help Taiwan defend itself.

19:20

President Biden said the United

19:23

States would defend Taiwan. These

19:25

are two different things with enormous implications.

19:28

And I'm asking you, the president has pretty clearly

19:30

said he wants the second. Is

19:32

the American military prepared to do that?

19:35

American military is

19:38

is always prepared to to

19:40

protect our interests and and and

19:43

live up to our commitments. Now,

19:46

certainly the president's I think the president was

19:48

clear in in providing his answers

19:50

as he responded to hypothetical

19:52

question. But again,

19:55

we continue to work to

19:57

make sure that we have the

19:59

right capabilities in

20:02

the right places to

20:05

ensure that we help our allies maintain

20:08

a free and open endo Pacific.

20:10

You are in the Asia

20:13

Pacific, you're dealing with

20:15

some of the issues that the countries there

20:18

are asking you about. And when

20:20

I've talked to leaders there, regarding

20:22

the kind of central issue of Taiwan. What

20:25

I hear is they are all

20:27

concerned about China's increasing

20:30

velocity But they

20:32

do think the immediate crisis

20:35

has passed the period

20:37

after Nancy Pelosi's visit

20:40

and they don't seem to fear an

20:42

imminent invasion by China.

20:44

Would you agree with that?

20:46

I would, Fareed, I

20:48

don't see an imminent invasion

20:51

either. What we do see is

20:54

China moving to establish

20:57

what we would call a new normal. Increased

21:00

activity we saw a number

21:02

of centerline crossings of Taiwan

21:05

straight by their aircraft. And

21:08

that number has increased over time.

21:11

We've seen more activity with

21:13

our surface vessels in the waters

21:17

in and around Taiwan. So

21:19

I think that China used

21:22

that opportunity of the congressional delegations

21:25

visit to begin to try

21:27

to create a a new normal. And

21:30

again, this is something that bears watching.

21:33

We're gonna continue to work with our allies

21:35

and partners in the region

21:36

to make sure that we're doing

21:39

what's necessary to ensure that

21:42

we maintain a free and open

21:44

Endo Pacific. we want to be able to

21:47

sail the seas and fly the skies international

21:50

spread airways. And so

21:52

we're going to continue to stay focused on that.

21:55

As China develops

21:57

its military capacity and as

21:59

it moves

21:59

more aggressively

22:02

forward in places like the Taiwan

22:05

Strait of China seas. It

22:07

seems that the risk of some kind

22:09

of miscalculation could

22:11

grow. And I'm wondering, are you

22:13

comfortable with the level of dialogue

22:16

you have with your counterpart in

22:18

China? And do you wish

22:21

you could have better working relationships

22:24

with the Chinese military? If

22:26

if nothing else to avoid some

22:28

kind of miscalculation?

22:30

I think that those

22:32

open channels are critical

22:36

to both of us. I think that we

22:38

should do everything that we can

22:40

to ensure that we have

22:42

the ability to engage our counterparts

22:46

routinely. And I've

22:48

spoken with minister Wei both

22:50

on the phone and in person and

22:54

and emphasize how important this

22:57

is. And so we'll

22:59

do everything we can to continue

23:02

to signal that we

23:04

want those channels open. And

23:06

I would hope that China would begin

23:08

to lean forward a bit more and

23:11

and work with us. But

23:13

they're not open right now. What does he say to

23:15

you when you tell him that? Well,

23:16

of course, he agreed that that

23:19

it is important, and you're right. They're not open.

23:22

And we'll keep working to

23:24

ensure that we can't open them. Mister

23:26

Secretary, pleasure

23:28

and honor to have you on the program, sir.

23:30

Always

23:30

a pleasure for REIT.

23:31

Next on GPS,

23:34

understanding Putin. I

23:36

talked to former Russian oligarchy for

23:40

his insight on what Putin may

23:42

be thinking with his explosive rhetoric

23:44

and erratic moves.

23:50

It's the big question in global affairs

23:52

today. what in the world is Vladimir

23:54

Putin thinking?

23:56

It may not be answerable by anybody

23:58

except the Russian president himself,

23:59

but I find it helpful to talk

24:02

to people who know Putin, who

24:04

have worked with him. And my next guest

24:06

fits that bill.

24:08

Mikael Korlowski was a Russian

24:10

oligarch. owner of Russian oil

24:12

and gas company and at one time

24:14

the richest man in Russia. But

24:17

then he got on Putin's bad side while

24:19

promoting roof forms in Russia and

24:21

spent a decade in prison for

24:23

fraud and tax evasion,

24:25

charges, he says, were politically motivated.

24:28

He

24:28

is now one of Putin's biggest critics

24:30

and lives in exile in the UK.

24:32

His new book is the Russia conundrum,

24:34

how the west fell for Putin's power

24:36

gambit and how to fix it.

24:38

Mikael, welcome.

24:40

So let me ask you first

24:43

the question I think that is the most urgent

24:46

and important,

24:47

which is

24:48

Putin's threat to use nuclear

24:51

weapons.

24:52

He said, this is not a bluff.

24:55

What

24:55

do you think? Is Putin bluffing?

24:58

Let's

25:02

see. is in a difficult situation now.

25:05

If he loses in Ukraine, he

25:07

is going to lose

25:08

power and also possibly his life.

25:10

And in this context,

25:11

his readiness to

25:14

use any method.

25:16

at his disposal

25:19

is not a bluff.

25:21

But at the same time,

25:24

the rare fact that he has led mobilization,

25:27

this means that

25:28

-- -- in the nearest

25:30

future,

25:30

he is not planning to use nuclear weapons.

25:33

and it is unlikely that

25:36

this is going to be posted on the agenda in

25:38

a proper way before the beginning of

25:40

next year.

25:41

But

25:44

let me just be clear. You're saying that

25:47

he's now gonna try as it were

25:49

to use mobilization and to use

25:51

these new

25:52

three hundred thousand Russian forces

25:55

to to attack the Ukrainians but

25:58

you do believe that if that doesn't

26:00

work and if he is cornered,

26:02

he could in fact use nuclear

26:04

weapons.

26:06

I

26:08

think that if mobilization

26:11

does not yield

26:14

The desired victory.

26:17

The question of using tactical nuclear

26:19

weapons is going to be on the agenda.

26:21

And when you think about

26:24

this question, how are

26:27

you thinking about what

26:29

Putin's mindset is right now? You said

26:31

he's worried about losing because if he loses

26:34

in Ukraine, he would he would

26:36

he would lose in Russia

26:38

and he might even lose his life. Explain

26:41

to me how that would work.

26:46

When he declared mobilization, He

26:49

made a very dangerous step.

26:52

He has handed

26:53

weapons into the

26:54

arms of ordinary people, common people.

26:57

Who are these ordinary people?

26:59

When they arrive on the battlefield and

27:01

find out what's happening there, they

27:04

can easily turn their

27:06

arms against the Kremlin itself,

27:08

and this has already

27:09

happened in Russian history

27:12

before. A hundred

27:14

years ago, it happened. The

27:16

last time you talked to him,

27:18

you said he he

27:20

told you, you know, it's alright for you to keep doing

27:22

what you're doing but make sure your company

27:25

does not in any way

27:27

fund the political opposition. And

27:29

you responded and said, well, the

27:31

company won't, but I'm not gonna promise

27:33

that any individual will

27:35

not. What I'm wondering is

27:37

tell us what his his What

27:40

was he like at that time? Was he was

27:42

he threatening? Was he was it

27:44

like a mafia boss? give

27:47

us a sense of how Putin wields

27:49

power.

27:51

In the Kremlin during our conversation,

27:53

make sure your company

27:54

does not in any way

27:57

fund the political opposition. And

27:59

you responded

27:59

and said, well, the company

28:02

won't, but I'm not gonna promise that any individual

28:05

will not. What I'm wondering is,

28:07

tell us what his his what

28:10

was he like at that time? Was he was

28:12

he threatening? Was he was it

28:14

like a mafia boss?

28:17

Give us a sense of how Putin wields

28:19

power.

28:20

In the Kremlin, during our conversation,

28:23

it became clear

28:24

that he had decided

28:28

To rule The

28:31

country as one would rule again.

28:33

But at the time, he wasn't a bloody

28:36

dictator. this happened

28:38

in front of eyes. In

28:41

front of our eyes -- step

28:44

by step from somebody

28:47

who violated a sovereignty

28:49

of a neighboring country in two thousand fourteen.

28:53

When he A next crimea.

28:56

From that person, through

28:58

the person who decided to attack a

29:01

neighboring

29:01

country, this evolution has

29:03

happened from an autocrat through

29:05

a theft via a dictator into

29:08

a bloody murderer, a bloody

29:10

us in.

29:11

Do you think people like President

29:13

Macron and chancellor Schultz should

29:15

be talking to Vladimir Putin at all?

29:18

I

29:21

think that

29:22

dialogue is necessary.

29:24

With anyone,

29:26

even if it's a gangster

29:29

who has taken hostages. Nevertheless,

29:32

we have to realize.

29:34

that

29:36

for any gangster.

29:39

for group of about one bungie

29:41

A dialogue with this gangster in

29:43

situation when the bandit or the gangster

29:45

feels that he has the upper hand is demonstrating

29:48

your weakness. And if you demonstrate your weakness

29:50

-- --

29:51

over and over again trying to negotiate

29:53

something with his gangster This

29:56

provokes this gangster to

29:58

further attacks, to further

29:59

steps because they think that

30:02

they're strong.

30:04

When they're in fact weak,

30:06

and I think this is the problem

30:08

of some western leaders who are trying to

30:10

negotiate

30:11

with Bújin and don't take it into

30:13

account.

30:14

Stay with us. We will be back with more

30:17

of my interview with Mikael Korokovsky. I

30:19

will ask him whether this possible to imagine

30:22

a Russia after approval.

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30:57

On this week's episode of the podcast, all there

30:59

is with Anderson Cooper.

31:00

I'm joined by doctor b j Miller. He's

31:02

the co author of the bestselling book, a beginner's

31:05

guide to the end, practical advice for

31:07

living life and facing death. Somebody

31:09

who's listening, who's dealing with

31:11

grief. What do you say to them? I say,

31:13

hey. Welcome to being a human being. You

31:15

have a lot in common with everyone who has

31:17

ever lived by virtue of having lost

31:19

things. and you're okay. Listen to the

31:21

podcast all there is with Anderson Cooper

31:24

on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen

31:26

to podcasts.

31:30

And

31:30

we are back with the man who was once

31:32

Russia's most successful businessman,

31:35

Mikhail Kotakowski, now living

31:37

in exile in London.

31:39

You say in your book that as

31:41

long as Putin and his regime

31:43

is ruling Russia.

31:45

Russia should be treated like North Korea.

31:47

But

31:48

the question I have is like North Korea in

31:51

a way, many people have

31:53

been waiting to see fissures or

31:55

cracks

31:56

in the ruling elite in Russia

31:58

or some sense

31:59

that Putin is under pressure.

32:02

And so far, it's been difficult to

32:04

find. Do you think there

32:06

are cracks in Putin's

32:08

structure of power.

32:11

It's evolutionary. These

32:14

cracks. Undoubtedly

32:16

have appeared after

32:19

the mobilization was declared and

32:21

these cracks are

32:23

in fact

32:24

Between

32:26

those people who think that

32:30

the mobile

32:31

There should be no

32:33

doubt About

32:35

the war and those people who understand

32:37

that what is happening

32:38

now is

32:41

if

32:42

Kicking

32:42

them out not just from a

32:45

civilized community of people, politicians,

32:48

but from

32:50

life itself,

32:52

spelling

32:52

them, not just them, but

32:55

their families as well. And

32:57

this split these

32:59

cracks have already appeared.

33:01

So one way of course to deal with this

33:03

issue is more more assistance

33:05

to Ukraine

33:06

help Ukraine do better

33:08

and better on the battle front.

33:10

Is there are there other things

33:13

that Western countries could do

33:15

to help put the pressure on Vladimir

33:17

Putin.

33:18

no mean you are missing

33:21

witnesses

33:21

I think that at the moment,

33:24

the most effective

33:24

chief lever of

33:27

pressure on Putin is

33:29

victory on the battlefield. If

33:32

the supplies of modern weapons

33:35

allowed Ukraine.

33:40

Two Quickly

33:43

move to the internationally recognized

33:45

borders. This

33:47

would remove the risk But

33:49

when we're talking about longer term, here,

33:54

the west, has a

33:56

serious lever of pressure.

33:58

of influence. These

33:59

are sanctions.

34:02

And I think that sanctions

34:03

linked

34:06

to Kirby prices

34:09

on energy are quite odd.

34:12

The decision that has been

34:14

offered now on

34:17

having a cab on Russian energy

34:20

is something that doesn't work.

34:23

in

34:23

the market economy.

34:27

If our objective is to

34:29

reduce the income that

34:31

Russia is getting

34:32

from selling energy, from

34:35

supplying energy. One

34:37

could introduce tariffs.

34:40

For Russian energy supplies,

34:43

that would actually remove the

34:45

premium that Russia is

34:47

getting today because European

34:50

market for Russian energy

34:52

supplies is a premium market. Of

34:54

course, this would not impact short

34:57

term, but in the medium

34:59

term, it would have

35:01

a deal a real serious blow

35:04

to the finance that Putin

35:06

has at his disposal. When

35:08

I look at Russia under Putin, what

35:10

strikes me is how

35:12

personalized the power structure

35:15

is. You know, when you think

35:17

about

35:18

the

35:18

the rules of succession, for example,

35:21

you know, We know what happens in a

35:23

monarchy. When the king dies, the crown

35:25

prince becomes the king. If

35:28

in a pallet bureau in China, for

35:30

example, if the leader does,

35:33

the colored bureau gets together and elects

35:35

a new leader.

35:37

What happens if Putin

35:40

dies?

35:41

It feels to me like

35:43

nobody knows. Russia is run not

35:45

by a set of institutions, but just

35:47

by this one man.

35:49

put him there are lots

35:51

of live free will

35:52

Over the past twenty years of his

35:54

rule, PETING HAS

35:56

FORMED.

35:59

TOTALLY CRIMINAL. Reporter: TOTALLY

35:59

CRIMINAL GOVERNMENT

36:02

It is a regime

36:05

he's holding under

36:06

his control because he's pitching

36:08

people against each other in his underbrush.

36:11

This already happened. in the Soviet Union

36:13

and to Stalin. And after

36:15

Stalin's death, his

36:18

closest circle fell into

36:21

conflict, which lasted

36:23

for two years, and then they crowned

36:25

Kutuzov.

36:25

yesterday he would you do

36:28

So if nothing is being done, A

36:31

similar scenario would

36:33

emerge after the death of

36:35

Vladimir Putin. Anyone who's

36:38

going to aspire to become the next

36:40

poutine would either have

36:42

to face or put

36:44

his face in the power structure

36:47

including the security, various security

36:49

services, or guarantee their

36:51

entourage a better relationship

36:53

with the West, and this is very portant because

36:55

Russian society is tired

36:57

of aches, strong

36:59

hand.

37:00

And I think it is quite likely

37:03

the second type of leader is going to

37:05

be in a greater demand.

37:06

If

37:08

they work together, the rationale position

37:10

the regions and the west, There

37:12

is a great chance that we

37:14

will get.

37:16

A normal.

37:19

I didn't

37:19

hear acceptable.

37:23

Peacefully minded country.

37:26

the purpose

37:27

with

37:28

quite a sufficiently democratic.

37:33

Political leadership, at least at the federal level.

37:36

Mikael Corikowski. Pleasure

37:38

to have you on. I

37:39

said. Thank

37:40

you.

37:43

Next on GPS, I will give

37:45

you a sneak preview of my latest documentary

37:48

on the huge controversies roiling

37:50

the Supreme Court of the United States.

37:53

I get into the leagues, the overturning of

37:55

president, the politics, the personalities,

37:58

the history, that preview,

37:59

and just a moment.

38:02

The supreme

38:05

court's last term shattered precedents,

38:07

especially with the landmark decision,

38:09

Dobbs v Jack, which overturn federal

38:12

protection of the right to an abortion.

38:15

Tomorrow,

38:15

it will begin a new term.

38:17

on the docket are cases that could determine

38:19

the status of protections under

38:21

the Voting Rights Act and the Clean Water

38:24

Act and

38:24

the Future of Affirmative Action.

38:27

These decisions will be made by a supreme

38:29

court that

38:29

has become more nakedly partisan.

38:33

How did we get here? That

38:35

is the subject of my latest special

38:37

airing tonight at eight PM eastern

38:39

and Pacific,

38:40

supreme power inside the

38:42

highest court in the land. Perhaps

38:44

the most illuminating place to

38:46

start is

38:47

how the Supreme Court reached

38:49

the decision this summer

38:51

to overturn Roe v Wade.

38:55

May second of this year,

38:58

an idyllic spring morning. No

39:01

hint of what is to come. that

39:03

night. The nine justices

39:05

of the supreme court attend

39:08

a memorial service for one

39:10

of their own. the late John

39:12

Paul Stevens. The

39:14

end of the court's term is just

39:16

weeks away, a whole host of consequential

39:19

decisions to come. A bitterly

39:21

divided country awaits a

39:23

momentous decision. Is this

39:25

the end of drove v wave. Of

39:30

law and of life. At the service,

39:32

the judges look collegial. They call

39:34

themselves a happy family. Beneath

39:38

the surface, there is much more

39:40

to the story.

39:41

They not only aren't getting along with each

39:43

other, they don't like each other.

39:44

It

39:47

is a court at war with itself.

39:51

And in the center stands

39:53

chief justice John Roberts.

39:55

John Roberts is someone who is

39:56

used to it He's very much

39:59

a judicial conservator.

39:59

Not a fan of Roe versus

40:02

Wade. But the chief is set

40:04

to be keenly aware.

40:06

That abolishing row could

40:08

tear America apart. He

40:10

cared more about preserving the legitimacy

40:13

of the Supreme Court, which meant

40:15

saving room. Come

40:17

on. Come on. Come on.

40:19

He wasn't gonna let go.

40:23

months only. Oral

40:26

arguments in the case of Dobbs

40:28

versus Jackson Whelan's Health Center.

40:32

that issue, a Mississippi law

40:34

that would limit but not eliminate the

40:37

right to an abortion. But five

40:39

justices want to abolish

40:41

it altogether. The conservatives, to

40:44

his right,

40:45

wanted to go all out against

40:47

Roe V. Wade.

40:48

The fetus has an

40:50

interest in having a life.

40:53

I thought it was stuck. To save rope,

40:56

Roberts must change one

40:58

vote.

40:59

There was really only one desperate

41:02

hope, but all came down to Kavanaugh.

41:05

Justice Brett Cavanaugh. There's

41:09

lots more. Watch my special supreme

41:11

power inside the highest court in

41:13

the land tonight at eight PM Eastern

41:16

and Pacific. right here on CNN.

41:18

And thank you for being part of my program this

41:20

week. I'll see you tonight and then right

41:23

back again here next week.

41:26

Some of

41:27

then