0:03

Welcome to episode 309 of

0:07

FBI Retired Case File

0:09

Review with Jerry Williams. I'm

0:12

a retired agent on a mission

0:14

to show you who the FBI

0:16

is and what the FBI does

0:18

through my books, my blog, and

0:20

my podcast case reviews with former

0:22

colleagues. Today we get

0:25

to speak to retired agent Richard

0:27

Denholm who served in the FBI

0:29

for 22 years. In

0:32

this episode, Rich reviews the

0:34

missing person investigation of Jesse

0:36

Davis, the nine-month pregnant

0:38

girlfriend of Catton, Ohio

0:40

police officer Bobby Cuts

0:42

Jr. Rich led this

0:44

case as the supervisor of the

0:47

Cleveland Division's Catton Resident Agency. The

0:50

disappearance of Jesse Davis became

0:52

a national news story. The

0:55

Stark County Sheriff's Office invited

0:57

the FBI to provide assistance

0:59

with interviews of witnesses and

1:01

subjects and the polygraph

1:03

examination of Cuts, after

1:06

which he agreed to show

1:08

the agents where Davis' body

1:10

was buried. Cuts was charged

1:12

and convicted on seven counts

1:14

involving the homicide of Davis

1:16

and her unborn child. Rich

1:19

also talks about the connection

1:21

this tragic case had with

1:23

the investigation of the

1:25

murder of another nine-month pregnant

1:27

woman, Lacey Peterson. Throughout

1:31

Rich Denholm's FBI career,

1:33

he led significant high-profile

1:35

investigations including public corruption,

1:38

white-collar crime, and violent

1:40

crime. Rich received the

1:42

attorney general's award in 2003 for leading

1:44

the investigation of a U.S.

1:48

Congressman. Rich served as

1:50

the FBI's deputy director to

1:52

the U.S. Department of Justice

1:54

Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task

1:57

Force Fusion Center and led

1:59

the efforts of federal law

2:01

enforcement to share intelligence across

2:03

all agencies of the US

2:05

government. He is a certified

2:07

FBI law enforcement instructor and

2:10

has taught courses at all

2:12

levels of federal, state and

2:14

local law enforcement. Since

2:16

his retirement from the Bureau, Rich continues

2:19

to be very busy. He

2:22

is an adjunct faculty member

2:24

at George Mason University in

2:26

the Department of Criminology, Law

2:28

and Society. He is

2:30

also a director at

2:33

A1C Partners, delivering advisory

2:35

services to federal government

2:37

clients and he

2:39

has his own law

2:41

practice, Denholm Law, PLLC.

2:44

Rich is also the

2:46

author of two textbooks,

2:48

Anthologies about corruption in

2:50

the federal government and

2:52

intelligence studies. Now

2:54

before we get to the case

2:57

review, I want to remind you

2:59

that I'm posting three episodes in

3:01

a row in February. So make

3:03

sure you follow FBI Retired Case

3:05

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3:07

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3:09

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3:13

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3:25

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3:34

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3:39

Thank you for your support. Now here's

3:42

the show. I

3:45

want to welcome my guest,

3:47

Richard Denholm. Hey Rich, how

3:49

are you? Hi Jeremy, great. How are you?

3:51

I'm doing fantastic. We are

3:53

going to be discussing a really

3:55

fascinating case today that is a

3:57

murder case that kind of plays

3:59

out all over the country, all

4:01

over the world being

4:06

murdered by their baby's

4:09

father. Why don't

4:11

you set this up and tell

4:14

us where you were assigned as

4:16

an agent and how

4:18

the FBI got involved in a

4:21

murder case because unlike what people

4:23

think, there are only certain situations

4:25

where we're invited into a murder

4:28

case or we have jurisdiction to

4:30

primarily investigate a

4:32

murder case. We'll talk more about your background

4:34

at the end but just tell us where

4:37

you were in your career when this all

4:39

started. Yes, absolutely, Jerry. That's

4:41

the thing is it often comes

4:43

down to whether the FBI will

4:45

get involved or can get involved

4:47

in one of these cases. At

4:49

this time in 2007, I was

4:51

the Supervisory Senior Resident Agent in

4:53

charge of the Canton Resident Agency

4:55

of the FBI's Cleveland Division. It's

4:57

quite a mouthful, quite a lot

4:59

to write but it boiled down

5:01

to I was the supervisor of

5:03

the Canton Office of the FBI,

5:05

a satellite of Cleveland. I was

5:08

the supervisor over about 10 FBI

5:10

agents and support personnel. We

5:13

had jurisdiction for federal crimes in 10

5:15

counties in the central

5:18

part of Ohio, about 35

5:21

miles south of Cleveland. I was

5:23

in charge of all basically FBI

5:25

violations that we could investigate. In

5:28

this case in particular, yeah, it

5:30

is the murder case of a

5:32

pregnant woman. She was nine

5:34

months pregnant. She was literally within days

5:36

of giving birth to her child and

5:38

normally the FBI would not get involved.

5:40

It's such a murder case. One

5:43

way we could get involved in what happened here is

5:46

that if a local department asks

5:48

for the FBI's help because the

5:50

case is very complicated, it's just

5:52

bigger than them. They don't have

5:54

the manpower perhaps or the expertise.

5:56

We call it domestic police cooperation

5:58

in the FBI. And if they

6:00

ask us for help, we oftentimes do help

6:02

them and provide support. That kind of sets

6:04

up where I was at the time, how

6:06

we got into it. Where

6:09

do you want to start? Do you want to start

6:11

at that point of the involvement or do you want

6:13

to take us from the very beginning when somebody knew

6:16

something was wrong? I think it's

6:18

a really interesting point as to where

6:20

exactly I was when I first heard

6:22

about a possible investigation involving her and

6:25

it does have overlap to prove your

6:27

point with another major nationally reported investigation.

6:30

Not only is this a very sad, tragic case,

6:32

but I always found it to be

6:34

very interesting because as I said, in

6:36

my position as the supervisor in charge

6:39

of the Canton office, I had to

6:41

liaison with all the local law enforcement

6:43

in that 10 County jurisdiction, both the

6:45

sheriff's departments and the local police departments.

6:47

What is really odd with this and

6:49

how I found out about it back

6:51

up a couple of days before I first

6:54

heard about the disappearance of Jesse Davis, I

6:56

was invited to attend what they call the

6:58

Buckeye State Sheriff's Association meeting, which occurs once

7:01

a year. And this was in June of

7:03

2007. And in

7:05

my position as supervisor, I was invited

7:07

to attend this and all the sheriffs

7:09

from Ohio's over 80 counties get together

7:12

and talk about law enforcement issues, overlapping

7:14

cases and how we can work together

7:16

and communicate better. So I had gone

7:18

down there for this event and kind

7:20

of unbelievably the guest speaker at

7:22

this event was the chief of

7:24

police of the Modesto, California police

7:26

department. And he spent quite a

7:28

bit of time as the keynote

7:30

speaker talking about his role in

7:32

the investigation, the disappearance of a

7:34

nine month pregnant woman named Lacey

7:36

Peterson. And they had a

7:38

huge investigation that was nationally televised, essentially.

7:41

It was on the news pretty much

7:43

every night. It was a huge event

7:45

as they were looking for this missing

7:47

woman. Her husband, Scott Peterson, came under

7:49

suspicion. There were images of him helping

7:51

searchers look for her. And he was

7:53

having crying fits and breaking down and

7:55

being so upset that she had disappeared.

7:57

A long story short is her. body

8:00

eventually washed up on shore and they determined

8:02

that she had been murdered and they indicted

8:04

her husband, Scott Peterson. That also was nationally

8:07

televised over many days and weeks. And he

8:09

was eventually convicted of her murder and sent

8:11

to prison. At this Buckeye State Sheriff's Association

8:13

meeting, the Modesto Chief of Police was talking

8:16

to all of us as senior leaders in

8:18

law enforcement about how to deal with the

8:20

media for these types of national events. And

8:22

I remember sitting there, typical of us in

8:25

the FBI, we end up in a lot

8:27

of cases and I was thinking, well, it's

8:29

probably never going to happen to me. I'm

8:31

never going to see anything like this. But it's

8:33

good to know. It's good professional development and I

8:36

learned a few tips from it. I

8:38

do recall that the FBI did work

8:40

with the police on the Lacey Peterson

8:42

case. I believe that the FBI's dive

8:44

team was involved and looking for her

8:46

body. I believe they were and I

8:48

think that fits exactly with the idea

8:50

of how the FBI's jurisdiction could be

8:52

used and cross over where we could

8:55

provide that technical assistance to a local

8:57

department. So all of these things were

8:59

in my mind as I drove the

9:01

couple hours back from the Columbus, Ohio

9:03

area back to my office in Canton

9:05

and just kind of thinking about it,

9:07

remembering the story about Lacey Peterson and

9:09

thinking how tragic it was. Literally, as I

9:11

drove into Canton and you cannot make this

9:13

stuff up, as we always said in the

9:15

FBI, one of the agents

9:17

who worked with me in my office, a

9:20

super agent, handled everything just professionally. It was

9:22

just one of the best agents. He called

9:24

me and he said, Hey, I'm getting called

9:26

by the Sart County Sheriff's Department because there's

9:28

this woman, Jesse Davis, who's been reported missing.

9:30

It's starting to develop kind of a lot

9:33

of media interest and just a lot of

9:35

interest from departments around the area. And she

9:37

was nine months pregnant and she's missing. And I'm

9:39

like, Whoa, wait a minute. I'm like, you don't

9:41

know what I just heard. He's like, now what

9:43

are you talking about? And I told him about

9:45

the Modesto chief. This is like the exact same

9:47

thing. I'm like, you just cannot make this up. So

9:49

he said to me, should we

9:52

get involved? Should I go help? And I said, well,

9:54

yeah, you can go over to the Sart County Sheriff's

9:56

Office, see if they need us or if they want

9:58

our help and we're standing by. We'll

10:00

help them if they need it." So he said, fine. So

10:03

he went there, I get back to my office, he calls

10:05

me a little bit later, he's like, they

10:07

don't really need our help right now. And I said,

10:09

well, that's fine. I go, we got plenty to do.

10:11

There's enough federal crimes going on and we have a

10:13

lot of huge cases, a lot of huge drug cases

10:15

going on, but okay, we'll monitor and see if they

10:17

need help. So the agent and I agreed, that's kind

10:19

of what we do. However it didn't

10:22

last that long. I remember later that

10:24

day, I believe it was later that day,

10:26

the agent called me back and said, yeah,

10:28

no, the sheriff's department needs our help. They

10:30

want us involved in this and they're asking

10:32

our help. So at that point, I'm like,

10:34

I don't know what our jurisdiction would be.

10:36

We literally talked about because she was so

10:39

pregnant, the FBI obviously has jurisdiction over kidnapping

10:41

matters of children, mostly. We said, I don't

10:43

know if we have jurisdiction, can we even call

10:46

it a kidnapping? Can we do that with a

10:48

straight face? So I called my superiors, I reported

10:50

to an assistant special agent in charge in Cleveland,

10:52

ran up by him, he ran up by the

10:55

boss of the office, we would call a special

10:57

agent in charge of the Cleveland field office. It

10:59

was decided, yeah, we could go ahead and talk

11:01

to Stark County, see how we could help. That's

11:04

kind of where we were at. So at that

11:06

point, I literally drive over to the Stark

11:09

County Sheriff's Office, not quite knowing what I

11:11

was walking into. And I

11:13

clearly remember driving into the parking lot of

11:15

that office and all of the media trucks

11:17

were already there. I was just

11:20

in shock. I'm like, oh wow, this is

11:22

like already blown up way more than I

11:24

had thought. The CNN trucks were

11:26

there, Fox News, all those with the satellite

11:28

dishes, et cetera. So they were already catching

11:30

on to this. So this is like a

11:32

similar case to Lacey Peterson and they all

11:34

wanted to be in on the action. At

11:37

that point, I went into the Stark

11:39

County Sheriff's Office, met with the sheriff

11:41

and the sheriff's number two in charge.

11:44

And we just kind of started talking about a

11:46

plan about what was going on. I was essentially

11:48

getting my first briefing when I walked into the

11:50

sheriff's office. I didn't quite know all the facts.

11:53

What I quickly learned was that

11:56

Jesse Davis' mother had reported her

11:58

missing and that's a very important fact. fact,

12:00

because as you already kind

12:02

of set it up, Jerry, there was

12:04

perhaps a boyfriend or a husband or

12:06

somebody else involved and they did

12:08

not report this. So that's always a red

12:10

flag to us. A lot of times it's

12:12

common sense is when we do these investigations,

12:15

if it doesn't look right and feel right,

12:17

it's usually not right. In this case, Jesse

12:19

Davis's mother had reported her missing because she

12:21

had last talked to her about the day

12:23

before while Jesse Davis was at a grocery

12:25

store. And then Jesse's mom really

12:28

didn't hear from her for several days. Jesse

12:30

Davis's mother went over to Jesse's

12:32

apartment looking for her and she

12:34

found her two-year-old son by himself

12:36

and it's really heartbreaking. Her two-year-old

12:39

son was basically in a diaper all

12:41

alone in this apartment. It's

12:43

really sad. And that was kind

12:45

of heartbreaking to all of us. The mother

12:47

goes in, finds baby alone and immediately

12:49

notices that the house was in disarray.

12:52

She could smell bleach. There was a

12:54

heavy smell of bleach in the house,

12:56

especially in one area. And

12:58

not a good sign. Again, we as

13:00

FBI agents think who's trying to

13:02

clean something up, it's probably not good.

13:04

And there was broken furniture around the

13:06

house. So obviously something bad

13:08

had happened. Jesse's mother

13:10

told us the son actually could talk

13:13

a bit, very bright boy, and he

13:15

kept saying, mommy broke the

13:17

table and mommy's in the rug. Those

13:20

were kind of the first clues that we had.

13:22

Now we really knew that something was up. I

13:25

can get into it a bit later too, but obviously

13:27

the two-year-old heard things,

13:29

saw things. But how in

13:31

the world, Jerry, do you use that person as

13:33

a witness in an affidavit or even in court?

13:36

It makes it incredibly complicated. And

13:38

also we in the FBI very much care about

13:41

victims and witnesses and we work very hard to

13:43

protect them. In fact, there's a whole division in

13:45

the FBI for victim witnesses and we have to

13:47

be very careful to make sure that we take

13:50

care of them. So at that

13:52

point, we're starting to put out more

13:54

and more press about Jesse and that

13:56

she's missing. And this started

13:58

to attract literally thousands of people. volunteers to

14:00

come to the area to search for her.

14:03

And again, I was very struck with

14:05

the overlap to what I had heard

14:07

from the Chief of Police of Modesto.

14:09

One of the searchers that the reporters

14:12

kept keying on in their video was

14:14

Bobby Cuts. Bobby Cuts was a Canton,

14:16

Ohio police officer, and he was the

14:18

boyfriend of Jesse Davis. He was the

14:20

father of the boy who was found

14:23

in the apartment. And we

14:25

also believed he was the father of

14:27

Jesse's unborn child. And Bobby

14:29

Cuts was out with the searchers and

14:31

they kept showing him breaking down in

14:33

tears, taking a knee, pouring water on

14:35

his head, crying. He's just obviously a

14:38

strut that Jesse was missing. Did

14:40

he live in the apartment with

14:42

Jesse and his son? See, this is what

14:45

was still kind of confusing about their

14:47

relationship. He was married at the time. And

14:49

not to her. And he also had a

14:51

number of other girlfriends. We also had

14:53

found out that he liked to go on

14:55

dating sites. Now, nothing against dating sites. They're

14:58

fine. But I have found in my

15:00

career just some odd activity when people are

15:02

doing that, especially if they're going on to

15:04

dating sites while they're allegedly looking for

15:06

their missing girlfriend, which we found out Cuts

15:09

was actually doing. Just really bizarre. But I

15:11

am not clear and I don't know if we

15:13

ever really nailed that down whether he lived there full

15:15

time, but he was there quite a bit. You

15:17

had talked about receiving this

15:20

training during a luncheon for

15:22

sheriffs. Had the sheriff

15:24

from this sheriff department attended

15:26

that luncheon too? Or was he aware of

15:28

what you had learned about the Lacey Peterson

15:31

case? Yeah, that's a great question. I don't

15:33

think he was there. I don't think he

15:35

or his number two were at this event,

15:37

as I recall. My memory may be a

15:39

little fuzzy, but I don't recall him being

15:41

there. But I do remember when I showed

15:44

up, I was talking to them about it

15:46

was unbelievable with the overlap of Modesto. They

15:48

benefited from our background knowledge of how

15:51

to handle the press and answer questions

15:53

and stuff during these. That is just

15:55

really such a coincidence. Could we talk

15:57

a little bit more about all

15:59

of the things that the FBI

16:01

did to participate in this A

16:23

lot of these sheriff's departments do

16:25

more than just custodial work in

16:28

jails or serving process. Many of

16:30

them actually do have investigators and

16:32

have experience doing it. The sheriff's

16:34

departments up here in Ohio will

16:36

work with us on task forces

16:38

etc. So yes, also they don't

16:40

have the investigative experience that we

16:42

have. I think the other thing

16:45

that was beyond them was the

16:47

national media being there. These are

16:49

jurisdictions in rural Ohio that don't

16:51

have a ton of experience with

16:53

the media and they really needed our

16:56

help with that. Our personnel deal with

16:58

big cases all the time. Our senior

17:00

leadership got involved. They were there in

17:02

Canton a lot. Our media representative was

17:04

helping with all the news conferences and

17:07

also just to use those conferences to

17:09

try to generate leads that would help

17:11

us develop information about her whereabouts. That

17:13

was kind of a big thing. Do

17:18

you recall the size of the sheriff's department?

17:21

It's a pretty big department actually. I mean

17:23

Stark County because it has Canton. Obviously, it

17:25

has the Pro Football Hall of Fame there.

17:27

They do handle events but I don't know

17:29

the exact number of their deputies or anything

17:31

but it's not like a small department. They

17:34

have a bunch of people. The

17:36

agents were also helping with interviewing

17:38

witnesses and the suspect. Did they

17:41

do that in partnership with a

17:43

deputy or a detective from the

17:45

sheriff's department? Yeah, great question. Absolutely.

17:48

Yeah, so our office in Canton

17:50

was pretty much open 24-7 during

17:53

this time. I clearly remember one of the

17:55

senior leaders of the Stark County Sheriff's Department

17:57

was in my office sitting there the whole

17:59

time. time as we were coordinating leads.

18:01

We had a meeting at one point.

18:03

I remember our conference room. They're probably

18:05

about 10 to 15 Stark

18:08

County deputies and my office as we

18:10

were coming up with a plan because

18:12

we'll oftentimes just use brute force on

18:15

these. We would search dumpsters in a

18:17

whole area looking for anything that could

18:19

relate to the murder, bloody clothes, towels

18:21

covered in bleach, whatever it was. Deputies

18:24

were actually in our office working with

18:26

us every day. When we were really

18:28

heavily involved, cuts got a lawyer because

18:30

almost always we're going to start looking

18:33

at the family members around the person

18:35

who was there most recently. The child

18:37

didn't say how mommy got in the

18:39

rug or how the furniture got broken.

18:41

And I was always kind of struck

18:43

by that. We had to start focusing

18:45

on cuts at some point. What's also

18:47

interesting is the fact that there's some

18:49

politics in this. The cuts was a

18:51

Canton, Ohio police officer. We in the

18:53

FBI worked very closely as we discussed

18:55

with the local police. I was actually

18:57

good friends with the chief of police

18:59

of Canton. We met all the time.

19:01

We had some Canton, Ohio officers on

19:03

our task force. It was sensitive because

19:05

anytime you potentially are going to start

19:07

looking at an officer, it kind of

19:09

ramps it up a bit. There's extra

19:11

sensitivities. We definitely don't want to be

19:13

wrong if we're going to accuse a

19:15

police officer of doing something. And early

19:17

on, obviously we didn't know other than

19:19

the fact that there's often this overlap

19:21

between the spouse or the boyfriend or

19:23

whatever when these events occur, but we

19:25

needed a lot more than that. We

19:27

needed evidence. Remember the

19:30

Canton, Ohio police department is a very

19:32

large police department. It's a pretty big

19:34

city in Ohio and they were not

19:36

working with us at all. I understood

19:38

that because it was very difficult time

19:40

when one of your officers is coming

19:42

under scrutiny. But this very much was

19:44

an FBI and Stark County Sheriff's Office

19:46

joint effort. But yeah, they were out

19:48

there. They were in on every decision

19:50

with us, et cetera. There actually is

19:52

one more story overlap as we were

19:54

doing this as well. At one point,

19:56

this was a day or two into

19:58

it. We had secure. We wanted it

20:00

to stay just as it was. And I remember

20:02

very clearly, it was very late at night and I

20:04

actually had gone home for the first time in a

20:06

while. And I get a call from the special agent

20:08

in charge of the office and he says, what's going

20:11

on with the crime scene right now? And

20:14

I'm like, I don't know why. He

20:16

said, well, I'm watching CNN and Greta Van

20:18

Susteren is broadcasting live from inside the

20:20

crime scene. I was like, Oh,

20:22

you've got to be kidding. What? Yeah.

20:26

Yeah. So I was like, Oh,

20:28

I'm not kidding. Yes. What

20:30

had happened was Stark County was doing the

20:32

security for the crime scene for us. That

20:34

was one of the major efforts and a

20:36

huge help because they had manpower to do

20:38

this and somebody had let her in so

20:40

she could show the furniture knocked over and

20:42

report from inside there. I

20:44

was on the phone right away to the

20:46

Stark County Sheriff's Office and not so gently

20:48

said that needs to be shut down immediately.

20:51

So they did. They got her out of there.

20:53

That ended her news coverage from inside the

20:55

crime scene. So again, just one of those

20:57

wacky things that can happen in a fast

20:59

paced investigation and everybody was getting

21:01

tired. I still to this day,

21:03

I don't know how that occurred, but it did. In

21:06

addition to interviewing the

21:08

witnesses, you had mentioned that

21:10

the suspect, Bobby Cuts, had

21:13

lawyered up. Did you have

21:15

any opportunity to interact with him? With the lawyer

21:17

or Bobby Cuts? With Bobby. Yeah.

21:21

So again, that's oftentimes the technical

21:23

expertise that the FBI can bring

21:25

to bear. We have polygraphers

21:28

in the FBI and they are very adept

21:30

at doing interviews and testing witness statements and

21:32

being able to give us some indication whether

21:34

someone's being truthful or not. They actually allowed

21:36

Bobby Cuts to do a polygraph. Sometimes defendants

21:38

will want to do that out of bravado

21:40

or just out of a sense of they're

21:43

going to get away with this. They know

21:45

how to beat a polygraph and maybe it'll

21:47

exonerate them and get the spotlight off of

21:49

them. But the results

21:51

of that polygraph were, if I remember

21:54

correctly, were inconclusive. That Wasn't

21:56

all that important at that point actually

21:58

because we already were getting 10. Recall

22:00

information that is story to match up that

22:02

he was elsewhere north of Cat and when

22:04

he said he never left can we knew

22:07

that was very important as one more way

22:09

to get a story out of the suspects

22:11

subject are descendants and then use that as

22:13

a piece of the puzzle because and once

22:16

they make a same it's very hard to

22:18

go back from that. I am an attorney

22:20

also as you know and I would never

22:22

let a client in any way shape or

22:25

form take a polygraph are taught to law

22:27

enforcement for anything else. I don't know why

22:29

that occurred. I'm grateful Dead because that helped

22:31

us put the puzzle together better to know

22:34

the we're dealing with somebody who was lying

22:36

to us and out new more than they

22:38

were letting on. I. Understand why

22:40

you would tell a client? not

22:43

too. But I. Think and

22:45

the public's. Eyes When someone

22:47

declines to set for a

22:49

polygraph examination, the thought that

22:51

they are guilty as what

22:53

comes from that denial. Yeah.

22:56

But we're able to talk to, cut some

22:58

a little bit and we're able to nail

23:01

down a story from him which is good.

23:03

We always want to get some story even

23:05

if it's Ally so we have some base

23:07

to work from. Any essentially told us that

23:09

he had not left the cat an area

23:12

he ben there and he didn't know anything

23:14

about what happened. So. Using other means

23:16

and I will go into detail what tools

23:18

we used but we were quickly able to

23:21

determine that the story of Cut staying in

23:23

the can while area was a lie that

23:25

he actually been moving around quite a bit

23:28

and then as we did interviews and more

23:30

more people we realize that he had met

23:32

with a former high school classmate of is

23:34

a woman a mice of feral and they'd

23:37

actually band together the night the we had

23:39

trying a nail down as a June fifteenth

23:41

the we had nail down that says he

23:43

Davis had gone missing. So. The

23:46

fact that he was together with this other woman

23:48

was odd to us and we needed to explore

23:50

that more. What The F B? I also was

23:52

really good at as you know juries. We interview

23:54

a lot of people and as we interviewed more

23:56

and more people, we started to focus on my

23:59

use of Feral. So we went to talk

24:01

to her or agents want to talk to

24:03

her to find out why she was with

24:05

cuts, what they were doing It cetera, she

24:07

essentially denied any knowledge and she lied to

24:09

the agents. And as you know, you can't

24:11

lie to the F B I actually eating

24:13

you A C Six, One Thousand One makes

24:15

it a federal offense to light when F

24:18

B I agent pieces interfere with their duty

24:20

and it causes them to write a false

24:22

report. We knew mice was lying to us,

24:24

we knew she was gonna be in trouble

24:26

At this point though, we still did not

24:28

know where Jesse Davis was as. The days

24:30

go on to become more more concerned

24:32

because you want to find the person

24:34

hopefully a live within the first couple

24:36

days and if you circle and beyond

24:38

that you become extremely concerned that you're

24:40

gonna find. A dead body and

24:43

night. The living person that we wanted

24:45

to fight so we're really spending twenty

24:47

four hours a day over a week's

24:49

time trying to find her, figure out

24:51

what happened, were gathering more and more

24:53

evidence to make a look toss like

24:55

cuts was lying to us which was

24:57

not good for him and we need

24:59

is know why but again he had

25:01

a lawyer which often makes it difficult

25:03

for us to talk to the person

25:05

and get the information because any good

25:07

lawyer will tell you that the other

25:09

client nice to talk to. the F

25:11

B I. Especially some other back round

25:13

about Bobby cuts to be. Also knew

25:15

their band previous accusations about him abusing

25:17

women. All these things were kind of

25:19

pointing to him that he had a

25:22

violent past and the he was tied

25:24

somehow to this and that telling us

25:26

the truth as you'd over your career

25:28

to eat just never can predict what

25:30

these defendants are going to do or

25:32

what calculus they're making. It certainly didn't

25:34

help him that we were breaking down

25:37

his friend my you saw getting her

25:39

to tell us which see new and

25:41

what had happened. as you know to

25:43

it's herds of call of times if you don't

25:45

have a body the defending say will pursue just

25:47

took off to mexico or something it makes it

25:49

very difficult there are a lot of cases that

25:52

the government does when it gets convictions for murder

25:54

without a body but it is really difficult at

25:56

that point there searchers there was even a group

25:58

i remember as a big deal, EquaSearch was

26:00

there. They kind of go around the

26:03

country and help out on events like

26:05

this. And it was just a huge

26:07

event with all the people we had.

26:09

We behind the scenes were working to

26:11

do as many interviews as we could.

26:13

There's obviously some means that the FBI

26:16

has to follow up on stories. I'm

26:18

going to go by what is reported in

26:20

the press on this with Bobby cuts. Suffice

26:23

it to say that we were in contact

26:25

with the attorney quite a bit. Cause again,

26:27

our number one thing was to find Jesse

26:29

Davis and her baby. Alive. Even though we

26:31

knew there was inconsistencies in his story and

26:34

we knew about this odd behavior with my

26:36

Aisha Farrell, we still were appealing to the

26:38

cuts team, Hey, help us find her. If

26:40

she's alive and hurt, we want to get

26:43

her help, et cetera. Unbelievably. And this again

26:45

is reported publicly and in the press suffice

26:47

it to say that Bobby cuts was

26:49

allowed to get into a car with

26:51

two FBI agents from the Canton office

26:53

and ride with them to show them

26:55

where her body was located. If

26:58

he didn't take us to the body, I don't know

27:00

what would have happened. I do know

27:03

for sure. We would not have found Jesse

27:05

Davis as quickly as we did, which still

27:07

felt like a long time. It would have

27:09

taken a long time. I mean, she was

27:11

in the woods. It wasn't too far from

27:13

a path. So eventually somebody would have happened

27:15

on her remains and they would have been

27:17

found, but I think it would have been

27:20

quite some time before we would have known

27:22

and had closure, frankly, we

27:24

were kind of lucky to have that happen, but

27:26

we did make our own luck with our efforts,

27:28

our technical efforts, our interviews, et cetera. To

27:31

this day, I'm grateful that we were able

27:33

to find her, but also a bit in

27:35

disbelief that anybody would actually take us to

27:37

where the body is and then not expect

27:39

to be in some type of legal jeopardy,

27:41

but regardless and kind of this crazy story,

27:43

this is what happened. A large

27:46

part of it was just the fact that

27:48

this went very fast too. It was several

27:50

days, but it just seemed to go very fast

27:52

as well. And when it finally broke, it

27:54

just like happened kind of out of the

27:56

blue. And I don't want to go into a

27:58

lot of detail about how. we did it

28:00

or how we came about to this. But again,

28:03

suffice it to say, he took us to where

28:05

the body was. This is actually what was reported

28:07

in the press in an open court. And it

28:09

was just an absolutely horrific scene because she had

28:12

been there a while. Her body was found about

28:14

35 miles north of Canton in

28:16

a metro park near Cleveland. Now, also,

28:18

if you talk about jurisdiction, her body

28:20

was found in a county park, which

28:22

actually sits within a national park itself.

28:24

And I know from some of your

28:26

other case studies that I've listened to

28:28

that are all so intriguing and

28:31

so interesting and shows the scope

28:33

of all the cases the FBI

28:35

can get into, where usually the

28:37

FBI has jurisdiction if a murder

28:39

occurs or bodies found in a

28:41

national park. It's federal land, so

28:43

the FBI has jurisdiction. Now,

28:45

this one, I had an idea from

28:47

our methods of collection, a general vicinity

28:50

of where this body would be. And

28:53

I thought for sure the body was going

28:55

to be in the national park. It's just

28:57

the way it looked. And then was surprised

28:59

that it actually ended up in a county

29:01

park within the federal park. I mean, the

29:03

jurisdictional issues that we have to consider are

29:05

just amazing. At that point, it's really a

29:08

faint accompli. He's taken us to where her

29:10

body is. She's deceased. But how did that

29:12

happen? Because as a lawyer,

29:14

let it happen. We'd polygraphed him. It

29:16

was inconsistent. We were telling his attorney

29:18

that we see these inconsistencies. We were

29:20

telling him without telling him exactly how

29:23

we knew that he was lying to us.

29:25

We're breaking down Maisha Farrell, who finally did

29:27

confess that she'd been with him and that

29:29

she had taken cleaning supplies to him and

29:31

helped him clean up the mess. And in

29:33

fact, to tell you the whole thing, she

29:35

had helped him move the body and the

29:37

carpeting in his pickup truck and take it

29:40

out of Canton to go dump it. So

29:42

we knew all of this. And we were

29:44

telling this to the attorney. And the attorney,

29:46

he should not have had him talking to

29:48

us at all. To this day, Jerry, I

29:50

don't know why the attorney said he would

29:52

take us to the body. Maybe it was

29:54

Bobby had just felt guilt. Maybe there was

29:57

that sense that he was a police officer

29:59

and there was some kernel of goodness

30:01

inside him that he wanted to make

30:03

sure that the mother of his children

30:05

was found. I don't know to this

30:07

day. Or maybe it was because

30:09

he thought that the other

30:11

girlfriend was going to talk to you and tell

30:14

you. That's what I was going to tell you.

30:16

And I still don't know whether he thought he

30:18

was still going to try to just say something

30:20

else happened. I'll talk about in a second what

30:22

he said happened at trial, which to this day

30:24

to me has made no sense at all, which

30:26

kind of leads me to believe he was going

30:28

to try to concoct some other story. But this

30:30

just totally got away from him. He took us

30:33

to the body and I don't

30:35

want to go into it. It was very

30:37

graphic and clearly her baby was viable and

30:39

ready to be born within days, which led

30:41

to kind of a novel criminal charge against

30:44

him for the murder of the baby to

30:46

who had not yet been born. But because

30:48

the baby was so close, they actually charged

30:50

him with the murder. So that's where we're

30:53

at there. How did that

30:55

happen though, that he decided to take you

30:57

there? I never had a good answer to

30:59

that. Maybe he was hoping he was going

31:01

to get leniency if he took us there.

31:03

It was weird because they said he would

31:05

take us to the body but wouldn't admit

31:08

anything. It's kind of like almost like, all

31:10

right, government, you're going to have to be

31:12

put to the task and be put to

31:14

your proof as the government always is in

31:16

a criminal case. I was shocked when he

31:18

actually went to trial. I thought for sure,

31:20

like in that circumstance, you would eventually just

31:22

work out a plea agreement with the

31:24

prosecutors and ask for leniency because you

31:27

actually help resolve the case, you gave

31:29

some closure to the families, you admit

31:31

your remorse. But he took it to

31:34

trial and they actually were seeking the

31:36

death penalty on him, which again maybe

31:38

was going to be leveraged. But those

31:41

types of questions would have to be

31:43

between Bobby Cutts and his attorney. I

31:45

don't know for sure. Why don't we

31:47

talk about the trial? Because even though

31:50

the FBI participated in this investigation and

31:52

did a lot of the major investigative

31:54

work, but at the end, this is

31:57

tried in state court. So talk about

31:59

that. When the FBI does

32:01

assist in these matters and then the

32:03

case is prosecuted, FBI agents can be

32:06

fair game to provide testimony, which we

32:08

did in this case. But yeah, it

32:10

was a state prosecution for murder of

32:12

both Jesse and the unborn child. I

32:15

was surprised that he took it to

32:17

trial, but we waited and watched and

32:19

Cuts did testify and he described what

32:21

happened. He said that he and

32:23

Davis had fought in the apartment and he had

32:25

thrown an elbow. He had just swung an elbow

32:28

and hit her in the throat and she dropped

32:30

and was dead. Now, it

32:32

doesn't take a long time FBI agent

32:34

to question that story because number one,

32:36

it's very hard just to kill somebody

32:38

with one shot like that. I am

32:40

not very familiar with that happening. So

32:42

that was suspicious. Second,

32:45

he said he tried to resuscitate her and

32:47

he couldn't do it. The question came up,

32:49

well, why didn't you call 911? And he

32:51

said he couldn't turn her phone on. None

32:53

of this makes sense because she dies. You

32:55

can't resuscitate her. You can't call 911. So

32:57

what do you do? You wrap her

33:00

up in a rug, throw her in a pickup truck

33:02

with your friend, try to clean up the scene and

33:04

drive the body 30, 35

33:06

miles north and throw her in the woods. None

33:08

of that makes sense. This guy was

33:10

on trial for capital murder on trial for his life.

33:13

And that was the best he could do. The

33:15

jury saw through that and convicted him. The

33:18

point is, though we weren't technically the

33:20

lead on the case because we were

33:22

assisting, personnel from Stark County and the

33:24

FBI all testified to these matters as

33:26

to what happened, and Kutz was convicted.

33:28

He was convicted of both the murder

33:31

of Davis and her unborn child. And

33:33

what about the girlfriend that assisted him

33:35

in dumping the body? Yeah, she took a plea.

33:39

So she pled guilty to obstruction of justice

33:42

for interfering with our investigation. And that's obviously

33:44

a way that we can use leverage on

33:46

people to get them to cooperate where we

33:48

can work with them on charges and what

33:51

they would plead guilty to. She did about

33:53

a year in prison, in fact, for

33:55

what she did and eventually got out. At

33:58

the end, what kind of investigation? the time

34:00

that he get, did he get the death penalty?

34:03

So the jury decided to spare his

34:05

life. When he did testify, he expressed

34:07

remorse. He explained his efforts trying to

34:09

revive her and the jury spared his

34:11

life. So he was given a sense

34:13

of life in prison instead of the

34:15

death penalty. He's eligible for parole in

34:18

57 years. He

34:20

still has a long time to go. I always

34:22

felt bad for Jesse Davis' mother, the

34:24

mother and the son. Cutts had a

34:27

few other children. He kind of ruined

34:29

a number of families here. Jesse's mother

34:31

actually in recent years, within the last,

34:34

I want to say six or seven years,

34:36

has kind of forgiven Cutts, felt he did

34:38

his time and has kind of worked to

34:40

get him out. And I think her main

34:43

concern, I won't speak for her, this is

34:45

conjecture on my part, from what I've read

34:47

about her since is that she definitely wanted

34:49

her grandson to be able to see his

34:51

father even in prison and probably to have

34:54

some type of life with him. But I

34:56

think that from what I've seen lately, the

34:58

son has gotten to see his father in

35:00

prison and I don't know where that will

35:03

go or how long. Knowing Ohio, I expect

35:05

Cutts to continue to spend most of that

35:07

57 years in prison. So that's where he is. Thank

35:13

you for sharing that case

35:15

review with us. I'm going

35:17

to have in the show

35:19

notes for this episode links

35:21

to various newspaper articles and

35:23

court documents that I found

35:25

related to this. I know

35:27

that eventually you worked

35:30

more in public corruption. Let

35:32

me ask my standard question

35:34

and then we'll talk just a

35:36

little bit about the rest of your

35:39

time in the bureau and then what

35:41

you're doing now. So when and why

35:43

did you join the FBI? So

35:46

ever since I was a kid, I always

35:48

wanted to be an FBI agent and I

35:50

remember being very young and the father of

35:52

one of fellow student of mine, even in

35:54

grade school, he was an FBI agent and

35:56

he would come in and talk to classes

35:58

once in a while. And he had great

36:01

stories about his work in the FBI. And

36:03

I just thought it sounded exciting. It sounded

36:05

like a job that you could really be

36:07

doing the right thing. I think I had

36:10

always been a rule follower and a law

36:12

follower. And the work sounded really interesting. I

36:14

started looking into it more and more and

36:16

I kind of set a path even in

36:18

high school to get into the FBI. I

36:21

read up, I read all the books I could, everything

36:23

I could about the FBI. And I

36:26

read up on director Hoover and I knew that

36:28

he liked to hire a lot of accountants and

36:30

lawyers as special agents. I didn't love math

36:32

so much. And so the accounting thing

36:34

probably wasn't going to be for me, but

36:37

I thought, well, if I could get in,

36:39

I could probably get in as a

36:41

lawyer. I went through college, University of Akron

36:43

graduated, then went to the University of Akron

36:45

School of Law. Graduated was in tremendous

36:47

shape, ready to go to Quantico to be

36:50

an FBI agent. Right when I was

36:52

coming out of law school and they had

36:54

a hiring freeze, which often happens with the

36:56

FBI. At that point, I

36:58

had to pivot and figure out something else

37:00

to do as an attorney. I sat

37:03

for the bar and I passed it and

37:05

I actually got a job as a enforcement

37:07

attorney with the US federal election commission in

37:09

Washington, DC and went there. I had a

37:11

thought that if I at least got into

37:13

the federal government, better shot at getting in

37:15

the FBI and little did I realize the

37:17

federal election commission where I was hired as

37:19

an enforcement attorney was right across the street

37:21

from FBI headquarters in downtown Washington. When I

37:23

got there, I thought, wow, this could be

37:26

good. I'll probably bump into people who are

37:28

in the FBI, get to know some folks

37:30

As I'm here and I'll learn a few

37:32

things as an attorney along the way. That

37:34

is exactly what happened. I Spent four years

37:37

with the FEC investigating campaign finance violations. Everybody

37:39

Who runs for federal office in this country

37:41

has to form a committee and report all

37:43

of its contributions and expenditures. I was handling

37:46

a lot of high profile cases as an

37:48

attorney. It Was really strange because by the

37:50

mid nineties, the FBI was doing the criminal

37:52

side of those investigations, often involving contributors at

37:55

that time to several presidential candidates and I

37:57

started working with a bunch of F B

37:59

I agents in the Washington area and try

38:01

to helping them and advising them on this

38:04

really arcane area of the law federal election

38:06

law and I was helping them with their

38:08

investigations and after about four years I learned

38:11

that the F B I was gonna start

38:13

hiring again because they're having a lot of

38:15

retirements from the age of ranks and so

38:17

I talked to some of the agents I

38:20

was working with they thought would be great

38:22

idea. Five applied and I did and I

38:24

got right in. This time I think some

38:26

of it had to do with the fact

38:29

I was already in the Washington area, was

38:31

already a federal employees and I had this

38:33

kind of niche expertise and election law. They

38:35

could benefit the bureau, which is kind of

38:38

what led me into the Bureau de into

38:40

my whole corruption career with the bureau to.

38:43

And how many years to

38:45

do work? Public corruption? So.

38:48

Overall total I would

38:50

say about. Ten. Years

38:52

at least half of my career A retired

38:54

from the F B I and twenty teen

38:56

aged of almost twenty three years as an

38:58

agent. I. Worked corruption matters in Washington

39:00

Field. I was assigned to watch to feel

39:02

awesome. I first got out was on a

39:04

federal corruption squad. So I was four

39:07

years and I were to number of high

39:09

profile very interesting cases they are. My wife

39:11

and I wanted to get closer to home

39:13

in Ohio and the Bureau offers you one

39:15

time a career your office of choice. We

39:18

called as you know p as you know

39:20

or officer preference and I'd put myself on

39:22

the list for Youngstown Ohio and thinking well

39:24

maybe I'll get offered a chance to go

39:26

to Youngstown and fifteen years or so and

39:29

I went. On the list of within six

39:31

months they called me an offer me a position

39:33

in Youngstown, Ohio. I jumped at

39:35

it and didn't quite realize why nobody

39:37

wanted to go to Youngstown Ohio and

39:39

sell. My wife and I were driving

39:41

there and I realized kind of where

39:43

I was getting myself into. Ah, right.

39:45

So wait a minute before you move

39:48

on. What was the issue with Youngstown

39:50

Ohio? While. again it was remembering

39:52

life events i realized his i was driving

39:54

my wife and i in our small infant

39:56

baby in the youngstown late at night one

39:58

night after we have move from Washington.

40:01

I was excited to be in Northeast Ohio because we

40:03

still have family here and to be close to them.

40:05

And I knew the work in Youngstown was good because

40:07

I've been talking to other agents about it. But as

40:09

I drove up, it must have been my dad who

40:11

was deceased. He must have been reaching out to me.

40:14

My dad was a truck driver. And for 20

40:16

years, he drove the route from Akron to Youngstown

40:18

to do deliveries. And he never once took us

40:20

to Youngstown. And I was like, my dad was

40:23

a very practical guy. And I was like struck

40:25

kind of like, uh oh, I wonder why he

40:27

never took us to Youngstown. And I very

40:30

quickly learned about Youngstown. Now, there are

40:32

great people there. I will not speak

40:34

ill of them. But the crime and

40:36

corruption and organized crime in Youngstown is

40:39

well known. They literally write books and

40:41

do shows about it. I learned really

40:43

quickly about the violent crime, organized crime

40:45

arena. And then I did,

40:48

I worked a lot of public corruption

40:50

in Youngstown while I was there. For

40:52

about five years I did that. I

40:54

did a case review with Joe Bushner,

40:56

episode 195, which

40:59

was a bribery and corruption

41:01

case against Congressman James Traficant.

41:03

Were you involved in that?

41:05

In fact, I was. Yes. And I

41:07

guess technically I was the lead case

41:10

agent on Traficant. Joe Bushner, great agent,

41:12

great friend. We worked together on that

41:14

case every day. The Youngstown NRA was

41:16

not huge. So pretty much every agent

41:18

in the office worked together on that

41:20

case. And yeah, we investigated

41:23

that case for about three years on

41:25

a sitting US Congressman, which again, real

41:27

quick as a side note, Traficant has

41:29

been in the news a lot the

41:31

last few days because he was only

41:33

the second US Congressman since the Civil

41:35

War to be expelled because we had

41:37

investigated him and got him convicted for

41:39

corruption. He was expelled. And then obviously

41:41

that is related to Congressman George Santos,

41:43

who was just expelled from the House as

41:45

well. So we were here at Traficant's name a lot.

41:48

Well, if anybody wants to listen to

41:50

that case, which you played a major

41:52

role in, again, it's episode 195. Excellent.

41:56

And it was a great podcast as well. I did hear

41:59

it was great. Then I was the unit

42:01

chief of the public corruption unit at FBI headquarters.

42:03

Actually, I was the acting section chief for a

42:05

time of corruption and civil rights. I did that

42:07

for a couple of years and then kind of

42:10

moved over to the organized crime drug enforcement arena.

42:13

You eventually retired from the

42:15

FBI. When did you retire

42:17

and what are you doing now? In

42:20

my last several years in the FBI,

42:22

I was working with the organized crime

42:24

drug enforcement task forces and the last

42:26

couple of years, I was actually working

42:28

directly every day with Maine justice in

42:30

Washington on transnational organized crime and worked

42:33

a lot on information sharing between law

42:35

enforcement agencies. So I retired in 2018

42:37

and kind of moved into the business world. I

42:39

worked for a company for a while and then

42:42

I did background investigations as many of us do.

42:44

I eventually landed with a company

42:46

called A1C Partners. We're a

42:48

small service disabled veteran owned business. We

42:50

do intelligence work with the government now,

42:53

definitely on the criminal side. I'm a

42:55

director in that company and we provide

42:57

mostly open source research work to the

43:00

federal government. I also am an adjunct

43:02

faculty member at George Mason. I teach

43:04

intelligence studies and also a course in

43:07

government corruption. I've written two textbooks, one

43:09

on intelligence and one on government corruption

43:11

published by Cognela. Also, I have my

43:14

own law firm. In many ways, I

43:16

feel like I'm busier than I ever

43:18

have been in my life, but it is

43:20

good to be able to work a whole career with

43:23

the bureau and then move on to other things. My

43:25

law firm is Denholm Law and I'm based in Washington,

43:27

D.C. and Ohio and do a number of things through

43:29

it. I get comments from people

43:31

who listen to this podcast all the

43:33

time about whether or not FBI agents

43:36

really know the meaning of the word

43:38

retired. That's right. That's

43:40

right. I am going to put a link

43:42

to your textbook. Is it something that the

43:45

public would want to read? I

43:47

hope so and they certainly can. It is

43:50

a textbook and I use that at the

43:52

university, but I've had a number of agents

43:54

who are always very supportive. That is a

43:56

great thing with the FBI group. Everybody's really

43:58

supportive of each other. several said, hey, I

44:00

want to buy your book. Actually you can find

44:03

both of them on Amazon as well. Frankly

44:05

they are a little more on

44:07

the textbook side. I know you

44:09

write great fiction books about the

44:11

FBI. So it just depends on

44:14

what people's flavor is in that. We've

44:16

come to the part of the interview

44:18

where I like to give my guest

44:20

the last word. So what would you

44:22

like to say? One thing that came

44:24

to my mind is, and congratulations again

44:26

on your 300th podcast, and

44:29

I listened to your interview of

44:31

Director Ray and thought it was great. Both

44:33

you and Director Ray, I think were spot

44:35

on about many things. I really wanted to

44:37

say like a couple of things, not that

44:39

the director needs backed up on anything, but

44:42

it really occurred to me two things when

44:44

you were asking him questions about kind of

44:46

the current state of affairs with the public's

44:48

view of the FBI and just all the

44:50

politics involved in the way things are going

44:52

nowadays in this country. Two things as far

44:54

as whether people trust the FBI. And you

44:57

hear a lot of politicians right now saying

44:59

some really very beyond outlandish things

45:01

about the FBI, which I completely

45:03

discount. I really had the thought,

45:05

one, two things. One is that

45:07

trust in the FBI. Yeah. I

45:09

think the American public still very much

45:11

trust the FBI. And here's why I

45:13

know this. If you are a teller

45:15

in a bank or a bank manager

45:18

and your bank gets robbed, or you're

45:20

defrauded by some scammer from some other

45:22

part of the country or the world,

45:24

or you're in some other way harmed

45:26

or your child is kidnapped, who do

45:28

Americans call? They call the FBI and

45:30

the FBI goes and they help them. They

45:32

help Americans. That's always going to be true.

45:34

And I know it's true now. They don't

45:37

call their congressmen. I'm sorry. That's just not

45:39

the case. They don't call their city council

45:41

when those things happen. So yeah, they trust

45:43

the FBI. The second thing, I heard the

45:45

director talk a lot about recruitment levels. I

45:48

know that's true because I told you, I

45:50

teach at George Mason University, and my classes

45:52

are loaded with people who want to work

45:54

for the FBI. These are all young, super

45:57

great people, very high intellects. And they take

45:59

my class. because one, they really think it's

46:01

cool to hear from an FBI agent who's a

46:03

faculty member there. They think

46:05

they have a lot to learn from me, which

46:07

I hope is true. And they all, to a

46:09

person, asked me about strategies about getting into the

46:12

FBI. So to me, that is

46:14

not a discredited agency. That is an agency

46:16

very much still on the upswing. I really

46:18

want to thank you for publicizing this. I

46:20

know most of my retired colleagues are still,

46:22

as I am, very proud to be in

46:24

the FBI and proud of our association and

46:26

look for ways always for that to continue.

46:28

So thank you for your efforts on that, Sherry.

46:31

I really appreciate it. And

46:34

that's the end of the interview.

46:37

In your podcast app's description

46:39

of this episode, there's a

46:41

link to the show notes

46:43

at jerrywilliams.com where you'll find

46:45

a headshot for Rich Denholm,

46:48

links to articles about this

46:50

murder investigation including court documents

46:52

of Bobby Cutts' appeal and

46:54

case-related photos of Jesse Davis

46:56

and Bobby Cutts. There's

46:59

also a link to investigating

47:01

and prosecuting corruption and

47:03

anthology, one of

47:05

Rich's textbooks which I've also

47:08

included in my FBI reading

47:10

resource, my colorful list of

47:12

books about the FBI written

47:14

by the FBI agents who

47:16

have been guessed on this

47:18

podcast. If you

47:20

are interested in listening to

47:23

another case involving the investigation

47:25

of another man suspected of

47:27

murdering his girlfriend, check out

47:29

the link to FBI Retired

47:32

Case File Review Episode 098

47:36

about the Thomas Capano and

47:38

Marie Fahey murder case. I

47:41

hope you enjoyed the interview and that

47:43

you'll share it with your friends, family

47:45

and associates. You can show me

47:48

just how much you liked it by buying

47:50

me a coffee. There's a

47:52

link in your podcast app's description

47:54

of this episode or you can

47:57

visit jerrywilliams.com and tap

47:59

on the little... cup icon in

48:01

the bottom right hand corner of my

48:03

website. Don't forget to follow FBI

48:05

Retired Case File Review on

48:08

your favorite podcast app. Now

48:10

this podcast is all

48:12

about true crime but if you're also

48:14

interested in crime fiction once a month

48:16

via my reader team email, I keep

48:19

you up to date on the FBI

48:21

and books TV and movies.

48:23

When you join my reader team

48:25

you get access to my FBI

48:27

reading resource, a colorful list

48:29

of more than 70 books about

48:32

the FBI written by FBI

48:34

agents who have been guests

48:36

on this podcast. There's nonfiction,

48:38

crime fiction, true crime and

48:40

memoirs. You'll also get my

48:42

FBI reality checklist where I

48:44

debunk 20 cliches about

48:47

the FBI and receive news

48:49

about what I'm up to

48:51

and about my FBI nonfiction

48:53

and crime fiction books. I

48:56

want to thank you for listening

48:58

to the very end. I hope

49:00

you come back for another episode

49:02

of FBI Retired Case File Review

49:05

with Jerry Williams. Thank you.