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back with another edition of the Federalist Radio.

0:51

Our I'm Emily Russians geek culture editor here

0:53

at the Federalist. As always, you can email

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a show at Radio at the federalist.com by

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was on exit F D R O S

1:00

T. Make sure to subscribe wherever you download

1:02

your podcasts and of course to the premium

1:04

version of our website as well. We're joined

1:06

today by Paul De Perna he is the

1:09

Vice President, A research and innovation at And

1:11

Choice. You can learn more about a Choice

1:13

At and Choice. Dot Org. Paul Welcome

1:15

to the show. And. Will you

1:17

drink beer with you think so much. You

1:20

may be a good spot to start as just if you

1:22

could tell us a little bit about the work that you

1:25

guys are up to, over at a choice. Sure,

1:27

So are you a digital? For

1:30

those with mean who may not

1:32

be familiar with organization, we're obliged.

1:34

And Ninety Ninety Six really been

1:37

around for about three years. Originally

1:39

we were the Million Rows, Leave

1:41

or Freeman Foundation so we were

1:44

founded by known Friedman. Many

1:47

people knew where the Ai Economic

1:49

and Nobel laureate and his wife

1:51

rose Director Friedman and were released

1:54

in Indianapolis. But the scope of

1:56

our work is national. Or

1:58

a non partisan or not

2:00

profit organization. And

2:02

our mission is to advance freedom,

2:04

opportunities and choice for all engaged

2:06

for education as as way to

2:09

successful lies in a stronger society

2:11

and so are of okay our

2:13

our focus is around two for

2:15

education choice issues we inform. An

2:18

entity. Policymakers, parent groups, education

2:20

leaders, more more ambush from

2:22

yours in the space. Ah

2:24

Troop the policy advocacy, legal

2:26

affairs are we do a

2:28

lot of power and workshops,

2:30

an outreach and and and

2:32

my and I areas there

2:34

and resort about Leadership program

2:37

I oversee. The surveys

2:39

in the going on and we

2:41

do and other types those are

2:43

scenario activities around research. Stayed around

2:45

the school choice programs around the

2:48

country. Some.

2:50

People might not be familiar with the background of

2:52

actually not and Rose Friedman in the space if

2:54

you could tell us a little bit Paul because

2:56

I. Find this history really

2:58

interesting. A little bit about

3:00

ah, the. I guess the

3:02

the movement as it was then and

3:04

and what why? the Friedman. Thought this was

3:06

such important work at I think I would

3:09

be really fascinating. Story.

3:11

So Milton Friedman's a

3:13

t happy. Oh really

3:15

it's eyes down. List

3:17

himself as a free

3:19

market. And Freedom

3:22

last August economist I at

3:24

a time when that wasn't

3:26

really high and famer and

3:28

in the profession I were

3:30

you know and it was

3:32

really any and and new

3:34

deal i Iraq and in

3:36

your were more government intervention,

3:38

more government programs for of.

3:41

Launching an expanding and so non

3:43

free men really was one of

3:46

those from the Chicago school economics

3:48

you can offer. You know that

3:50

alternative vision for a what for

3:52

How free markets can? That's ah

3:55

you don't view it serves the

3:57

interests of the altitude and see

3:59

you. Imperium by

4:01

doing individual have more free and

4:03

more choice words opportunity in the

4:06

deal did that can lead to

4:08

better things for a D a

4:10

friend for everyone. Associates were Edinburgh

4:13

and influential. Ah, art

4:15

at article and that and then

4:17

ideas diseases is going about about

4:20

seven years and years ago, lot

4:22

louder all governments in education where

4:25

he laid out his school voucher.

4:27

it's idea and end and proposal

4:29

And and be stated that in

4:32

Capitalism and Freedom which published some

4:34

some years later in the early

4:36

Nineteen sixties. And

4:39

snow and those ideas were

4:41

percolating for a while among

4:43

conservatives in the late fifties,

4:45

sixties and seventies. and ah

4:47

but it did. but it

4:49

didn't really hates acts, act

4:51

and like really answer public

4:53

policy and ah until Ninety

4:55

Ninety in Milwaukee which was

4:57

first guy with the the

4:59

beginning of the first modern

5:01

school voucher programs with it

5:03

was led by the way

5:05

by democrats in in a

5:07

city and so. Our full learned.

5:10

Ah was a on the John or

5:12

quest to the Mayor around Fuller who's

5:15

the superintendent Milosz. Our schools embrace this

5:17

idea they saw on his way. That's

5:19

an increase the competition and Ah for

5:21

school there Manassas to give. Students

5:24

who were in a very message

5:26

you know situation the academically ah schools

5:28

are underperforming even dangerous negating into

5:30

it is a that he one for

5:32

my options when in our schools are

5:35

other private schools in the city has

5:37

as the first my school voucher

5:39

program. That. Lost a lot

5:41

more than thirty years ago. and then

5:43

and now is. Manifesting.

5:46

The dizzy and at vision and

5:48

and the idea that non freeman

5:50

and put forward side and by

5:52

printing previously at and then Cleveland

5:55

was the next school voucher programs

5:57

and slowly over time the and

5:59

idea. Etti Gosh and we

6:01

started. It may begin see a

6:03

move not just focused in urban

6:05

areas but state wide program since

6:07

of Florida. The. Most to

6:10

stay. Why? And it's a school

6:12

voucher program. Ah, violate a first

6:14

in an ace ah in the

6:16

eyes solidified as a full program

6:19

for students with disabilities have called

6:21

me much a scholarship at the

6:23

time of finance and some Florida

6:25

hundred Gov then Gov Jeb Bush's

6:28

leadership. Really, I use discernment to

6:30

amended that into give a lot

6:32

more visibility. I increased

6:34

visibility. It's hours of the school

6:37

Choice idea ah and at gone

6:39

beyond the public charter schools which

6:41

is another version of choice but

6:44

was in the public sector as

6:46

this was opening it up to

6:48

the private sector and then Netscape.

6:51

Like Arizona, they also as with

6:53

Limited Pathway was a cloud Our

6:56

tax credit scholarship program so tax

6:58

credit funded by scholarships took off

7:00

in Arizona in the late nineties

7:03

and early two thousand. And six,

7:05

Amazon Ohio launch a statewide

7:07

program. And some then

7:09

move for ios. Fast forward side

7:11

to the last three or four

7:13

years we see these programs. Now.

7:17

Expanding. Their eligibility and so

7:20

we've seen some really exciting

7:22

developments in the last few

7:24

years. Once again, Arizona and

7:26

New State like West Virginia

7:28

who an active with full

7:30

universal programs, I still see

7:32

any eligibility to all students.

7:35

Have to be twelve a

7:37

spy had to be able

7:39

to take advantage of. I

7:41

went on eat Education savings

7:43

account programs which are miss

7:45

multipurpose types of programs that

7:47

go beyond. Are saying and

7:50

and and and paying for schools

7:52

wish and but also for allows

7:54

for at covering expenses for tutoring

7:56

stare at ease of a child

7:58

as a disability it's online. This

8:00

is by and and other types

8:02

of those educational expenses so there's

8:04

be so. it's really just grown

8:06

over the years I an end

8:08

in this all started school by

8:10

you Are Seven Year almost seven

8:12

years ago and Long Freeman's I

8:14

it's outer idea you it's It's

8:17

so interesting that was. Really deep history.

8:19

One of the reasons I think it's

8:21

so interesting is that especially right now

8:23

as so many people are having these

8:25

conversations about what is conservatism, it goes

8:27

back to in the days of the

8:29

founding. When obviously the framers of

8:31

our constitution sauce as you taste

8:33

and as such an important part

8:36

of republican. Small, a republican government

8:38

and it's remarkable than a look

8:40

at. You know where that was going?

8:43

And and when Friedman was sort of pressure and

8:45

saw where. It was going and understood

8:47

or that's that's. Had to be taken as

8:49

and also to. Trainer understand the the government's

8:51

role and all of this the families

8:54

role in all this in the importance

8:56

of vogue giving people giving people a

8:58

choice paul have you? I guess how

9:00

know I feel like it's very it's

9:03

a little we or there's so much

9:05

consensus on the question of school choice

9:07

on the right. there's even a lot

9:10

of support for it or months braver

9:12

souls on. Full blast. But the

9:14

have there been any. Have

9:18

the been or it would see I have.

9:20

You had to kind of reeks blaine school

9:22

choice to people is this era of Blake's.

9:24

Big conversations about national conservatism and

9:26

all of that. As.

9:29

A great question guy so.

9:32

Move. One of the was a

9:35

lot you know I say in

9:37

the I especially with these programs

9:39

expanding and so these programs are

9:42

just being more relevant and O's

9:44

use an hour in the potential

9:46

there for more people coming from.

9:49

Germany. And or loss of life

9:51

and backgrounds and it's honestly know

9:53

about. Are some choice.

9:56

Use I saw was a

9:58

pretty apparent is interested. Then

10:00

again, I am being able

10:02

to. Utilize.

10:04

A note: Education Savings Account

10:06

Program or on to you

10:08

know to to be a

10:10

chain schools or that someone

10:12

is in the advocacy space

10:14

in one tune It. Is

10:17

be more informed about the different types

10:19

of school choice? Or isn't that there

10:21

has been day as he was under

10:23

the there's been a lot of opportunity

10:25

to be to Ah and because as

10:28

been. Evolving that our

10:30

ally in the last ten to

10:32

fifteen years in terms of just

10:34

a different types of those policies.

10:36

Higher education same as a cast

10:38

and only been around for. About.

10:41

Thirteen or fourteen years, I've first

10:43

being enacted in Arizona and then

10:46

spreading to other states more recently.

10:48

Ah, and and then there's sort

10:50

out of her and my own

10:52

state of Indiana. And

10:55

one of the largest school voucher

10:57

programs which were scholarship program that

10:59

serving more than sixty thousand students

11:01

the school year us and said

11:04

as also really paying off and

11:06

x and eligibility is expanded and

11:08

an odd. Banerjee

11:10

the legislature and the Governor. Expanding

11:13

and in the last can be few years and

11:15

said. that has bring

11:18

more opportunity to see to the to do

11:20

is. Be against

11:22

the Saudis are seasons but what

11:24

choices and nine I'm in. I'm

11:26

in India logical way was very

11:29

practical way.to flee and which is

11:31

really refreshing and ice and com

11:33

and we see a lot of

11:35

progress and and salaam open mindedness

11:37

mom thought I'd have to and

11:39

usual on and so choice but

11:41

in that moment and especially in

11:43

the middle or those who are

11:46

just never really politically engaged. And

11:48

Ward skin thinking about the military

11:50

and and wellbeing of students and

11:52

especially coming out of the coven,

11:54

Pandemic is a lot more open

11:56

next to. A choice

11:58

idea. Which is he. Honestly, most

12:00

famously, but either may. they may not

12:02

be super politically engaged, but they you

12:04

know what? their communities there in: Their

12:06

children, their families, children to be healthy,

12:08

their neighbors Susan to be healthy and

12:11

getting a good. Education and

12:13

Paul. That's where I wanted a

12:15

may be contextualize this conversation we're

12:17

having ah in the last several

12:19

months of especially what has happened

12:21

in higher Education. But obviously you

12:23

don't make it to court higher

12:25

education until you pass through. Arcade

12:27

Twelve Sus in the United

12:29

States. So how would you

12:31

say you're talking to somebody

12:33

who's obsess about some of

12:35

the activism they seen on

12:37

campus. Maybe they're upset specifically

12:39

about oh, bigotry or incitement,

12:41

but maybe there are such

12:43

as more upset with polling

12:45

that shows. Yeah, let's say

12:47

add lacking support for Israel

12:49

compared to other generations among

12:51

young people. I'm. In there

12:53

wondering what's beyond behind this? How

12:55

would you say that? School choice

12:58

can come into play and and might

13:00

be important there. As

13:03

as a really good question, I have a

13:05

rising and we're We do. Surveys.

13:08

Oh, teenagers twice a year and we

13:10

just. Released Liverpool are

13:13

horrid on our server it seems from are

13:15

now about a month or York. And

13:18

you know I think do

13:20

on. Your being able to

13:22

just. Didn't make

13:24

make their high school experience now much

13:26

more real than and will will be

13:28

a similar findings from our survey. Words.

13:31

Maybe. Not as surprising, but still

13:33

alarming. And in terms of just

13:35

how many teams. Most

13:38

muslims in the nursery or a

13:40

nice car squeeze the summer. Also

13:42

in seventh grader Blu B C

13:44

E O a vast majority of

13:46

a majority saying is a very

13:49

ill arm be I'm bored in

13:51

school. And spears

13:53

and nearly the mountains or and

13:55

said today show school boring. Ah,

13:58

about one third said school. When

14:00

and I'm in the I am forty

14:02

one percent only forty one percent see

14:05

the like going to school so a

14:07

majority is what he flipped around and

14:09

don't let go my during the school

14:12

and then when they see their teenage

14:14

years their peers in the last made

14:16

the other the seven out of ten

14:19

teenagers said at all or most of

14:21

their classmates are bored and class saying

14:23

these are all a warning signs the

14:25

Us and the Cia and this is

14:28

not a new end of. Be a

14:30

we don't have a great time series or

14:32

wanted to modi. And.

14:35

The available to see you know

14:37

where these numbers look like. save

14:39

for that and I made by

14:41

that he had been able to

14:44

the video t a holistic view

14:46

look at a different surveys weather's

14:48

can be own the ones conducted

14:51

with us and morning consult with

14:53

our partners or on your be

14:55

commonsense media does surveys of teams

14:57

are some other out the southern

15:00

that use surveys pew Research Center

15:02

who also Surrey teachers and parents.

15:05

On this Understanding America Syria survey

15:07

from Us emails and even when

15:09

you look at all these numbers

15:11

are you see can see that

15:13

there's things that aren't going going

15:15

right now at the say the

15:17

least. And and in here and

15:19

there are some new initiatives to

15:21

the and to be think High

15:23

School and How Young Miss Radio

15:25

potentially new ideas you know to

15:27

try to. Include more

15:29

and I yelled snacks in that

15:32

bag and activity with my higher

15:34

education on a secondary weather is

15:36

Collins who colleges were from to

15:38

attack our other types of professional

15:41

and trade. Education

15:43

ah or skill building and

15:45

so I think there's an

15:47

artist. To

15:50

ah you know, The. Ip

15:52

Oh it did. it is. These kids are more.

15:54

They're going to be looking for things they yielded

15:56

and and instead of the students are born in

15:59

if they think school. The way to time

16:01

the other focus is not on Rubio.

16:03

I'll take you on what they can

16:05

necessarily the learning are you doing themselves

16:08

and so yeah I I don't I

16:10

don't we don't have to be and

16:12

ask questions about that expire the campus

16:15

protests actually and we didn't ask questions

16:17

or teens of about as such as

16:19

a pretty reasons by. Me:

16:22

I think the new if we

16:24

makes the high school experience more

16:26

relevant useful. Ah and to you

16:28

students and trustworthy and with parents

16:30

you know the engaging their parents

16:33

gazing the community more com and

16:35

her and there are you. These

16:37

things like this going on around

16:39

the country, we just how could

16:41

bring more attention to that? An

16:43

end to the jury. We can

16:46

build policies around that and engage

16:48

entrepreneurs. Education entrepreneurs in this way.

16:50

I wish that space is. Growing

16:52

and seems to be growing that, ah,

16:54

you know, a lot more. In recent

16:56

years I've enough to be a good

16:58

thing or two year to try to

17:00

help. You

17:02

are young adults. Are

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18:51

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18:55

about how to. Save

18:58

the Jaguars and all stay at and

19:00

only pay of a baseline. You. Know.

19:04

They'll do on every states have to the terms and conditions rating

19:06

that doesn't seem. Very and it's and seats are a

19:08

could increase it. I was driving all six Iron Casualty

19:10

Insurance Company in affiliates Northwick, Illinois. He

19:14

I know that's really interesting

19:16

on because the and actually.

19:18

I'm. Curious if you could talk a little bit

19:21

too? maybe about. Some of

19:23

those numbers you were mentioning that

19:25

aren't even like particularly political, I

19:27

just kids being bored in the

19:29

classroom. And mean people think of school

19:31

choice among contacts a politics because he

19:34

obviously that's sort of the arena and

19:36

much the policy battle for hearts run

19:38

by it in schools are failing children

19:41

in ways that go well bar beyond

19:43

and are obviously may be related to

19:45

solve these hot button political issues. But

19:47

if you could act as a liberal

19:50

Paul about how educational freedom, how school

19:52

choice I can can help. Improve.

19:56

Schools. Are on some

19:58

of those metrics? The they aren't even

20:00

in the political discussion, but are absolutely

20:02

salient and way very heavily on the

20:04

minds of just about every k to

20:06

twelve kid and their parents around the

20:08

country. Her nose

20:11

against agree the course and so I think

20:13

you are we do As a question of

20:15

our. Was.

20:18

And we as we masterpieces, teachers,

20:21

parents and teenagers in areas with

20:23

he sees the most important arms

20:25

of schooling is and we divide

20:28

Amy and we ask you for

20:30

them to consider elementary. Grades

20:32

cave and then also fries

20:35

Korea's nicer twelve and and

20:37

it's as interesting to see

20:39

that yeah we're what your

20:41

work for Skill building is

20:43

a highly and Angus the

20:45

highest. The registers not ties

20:47

to that percentage. For those

20:50

who among teachers teenagers, parents

20:52

you feel that the most

20:54

important ah it into focus

20:56

on for high school on

20:58

And so we see two

21:00

thirds of teachers and. This

21:02

service or and we just released

21:05

this week believe that's that's extremely

21:07

important for high school buses on

21:09

and and parents and almost the

21:11

same percentage of teenagers say the

21:14

same about don't him work for

21:16

skills and there's it's the the

21:18

circus on that we see a

21:20

little more have variation arm around.

21:23

Our academic subjects, and so.

21:27

I'm on scenes in the is

21:29

Only thirty eight percent said the

21:31

does really extremely important fry school

21:33

is a dog or and learning

21:35

core academic subjects. difference between when

21:37

the parents which is now forty

21:39

nine percent and then I loaded.

21:41

Surprising to me the forty one

21:43

percent of teachers teachers were closer

21:45

to teens on that on this

21:47

ah I don't out a crack

21:49

in a massage I was an

21:51

extremely important and then maybe supply

21:53

most right involve the public. General

21:55

public is most likely. To. Seek.

21:58

Were academic subjects as Burns Eyes. Percent

22:01

and about like. An

22:03

old eighteen and older so

22:05

the that's important and then

22:07

we are We as class

22:10

questioned a items rounds visualization

22:12

Citizen showed ah independent thinking

22:14

and. And family

22:16

see that the a Citizenship the

22:19

lowest score lower among teens and

22:21

forty one percent. Sixty one percent

22:23

of teachers think that's important in

22:25

high school or parents are forty

22:28

six percent and so we do.

22:30

See you have pre world we

22:32

don't often when we release these

22:35

reports that guy like this question

22:37

but I think this is kinda

22:39

least point us in their interaction

22:42

a word or prioritize the experience.

22:44

Ah swore I school. And

22:46

so on. And ten really

22:49

listening to teachers High school

22:51

students are capable school parents

22:53

and and and their organizations

22:55

out there that I'm redoing.

22:59

Ah, focus on it's. Really

23:02

kind of precincts were high school experience

23:04

can be so the. Bar.

23:06

Foundation for Excellence Education. Which

23:10

I gov Jeb Bush's organization that

23:12

this is becoming I priority for

23:14

them. This is something them were

23:17

looking at you had a choice

23:19

is to see how choice can

23:21

you know build some connective tissue

23:24

between the high school experience in

23:26

this and in and Beyond High

23:28

School in San So Mom, Indiana

23:31

Daves and we we we just

23:33

an added a new scholarship program

23:35

on enrichment scholarships. Or

23:38

provide stipends. Of

23:41

for the Sun God.

23:44

Still, Out high school students to.

23:48

Foot. The Bill Dairy Loan build there

23:50

are a serious behind beyond the

23:52

school buildings arm and says something

23:54

that's for a new and and

23:56

and it'll be interesting to see.

23:58

Ah yeah. That grows in

24:00

the coming years so there's there's a

24:03

lot. I'm as he I think this

24:05

was can be one of those air

24:07

yeah it's areas and the education that

24:09

will get more attention and then in

24:11

a shorter. In

24:15

ear we talked about this little

24:17

the earlier but even working in

24:19

the space for a while and

24:21

one of the most is one

24:24

of the most interesting things about

24:26

the movement that you're part of.

24:28

His: How bipartisan it often isn't.

24:30

That isn't to say there aren't

24:32

bitter partisan disagreements. That isn't to

24:34

say there aren't as or partisan

24:36

disagreements that put students last. And obviously

24:38

I'm going from the opinion perspective. That

24:40

encompasses the school and what has

24:42

ah but by a lot of

24:44

kids and difficult situations are necessarily.

24:46

but I can you talk to

24:48

Suss about what it's been. Like in

24:51

a what is the landscape right now.

24:53

Obviously tensions are of. Nationally have ratcheted

24:55

up since oh I don't After all

24:57

you're up there twenty sixteen bytes. It's

24:59

mean hard for people in different movements

25:01

actually to work together but it's a

25:03

it easier and summer strikes by. Could

25:05

use as tells a little bit about

25:07

your experience in what it's like. I

25:09

work in across the aisle on this

25:11

issue on and in Ice and even

25:13

do the binary. Across the aisle

25:15

phrase but we're Jewish people. And

25:18

coalition leaders are people with

25:20

steaks in all kinds of

25:22

different. Groups and

25:24

and Communities on. This

25:26

issue. What's it like today? As it is it

25:29

easier, is it harder? and is there still a

25:31

lot of bi partisan support? Doesn't.

25:34

Agree with him and and

25:36

by email address. By

25:39

I've seen you know more more

25:41

openness in the only non partisan

25:44

I I think people on whether

25:46

your especially when it and logo

25:48

on three levels who are working

25:51

on these issues related to you

25:53

know with the volunteers is not

25:55

and on the radar really and

25:58

as only years it's been waited

26:00

on by an uphill opponents and

26:03

and will we know that the

26:05

least national teachers' unions are very

26:07

opposed to school vouchers in the

26:10

all everything a school voucher even

26:12

if it isn't isn't a school

26:14

voucher sound and so you know

26:17

if we see a lot of

26:19

democrat and demand democratic and republican

26:22

support for Usa is almost equal

26:24

pay our various the Oh similar

26:26

levels were typically seven. Idea that

26:29

seventy percent. Or above are supportive

26:31

of me as a as in so.

26:34

Ah and so you Lbc then I

26:36

yell and whether he is on the

26:39

party Id question where if it's on

26:41

the ideological or so liberal and conservative

26:43

and moderate army their social lives in

26:46

coalescing and married him to gas or

26:48

very small and and to be in

26:50

seem to in and seat as. Around

26:53

and cases savings accounts, And

26:57

I would say the same about

26:59

open enrollment which is our school

27:01

choice allowing students to go to

27:04

attend and other our school. It's

27:06

not in their school district and

27:08

so that's also another area on

27:11

it. We see just you know,

27:13

those cows. Are.

27:15

Year Ideological lines. A

27:19

moderate on the school is gonna

27:21

among school vouchers me there are

27:23

some eats this one we out

27:25

when we do asked about school

27:27

vouchers there are some differences are

27:29

still. Among democrats, there's

27:32

a net positive support an

27:34

argument for for school voucher

27:36

programs and so. ah

27:38

and the same for charter schools

27:40

and and so little and level

27:42

of support for charters it's archers

27:45

if you have been a little

27:47

bit more and are ah in

27:49

flocks overtime as we've been doing

27:51

our monthly tracking poll with morning

27:53

console smile but i really i

27:55

have to the jury would be

27:57

of listeners early and are interested

27:59

in all And that's something that we

28:01

do try to present as demographic

28:03

breakouts. And we try to make

28:05

all the data available to

28:08

the degree people want to wait in the day. So

28:10

there's a lot of it, especially in the crosstabs

28:12

files. And

28:16

you can just draw these comparisons.

28:19

But outside of the polling and like

28:21

in the work that

28:23

our policy and advocacy team do, our

28:26

training and outreach teams, I

28:28

mean, they are working with

28:30

whoever is interested in the issue

28:32

and wants to see forward progress.

28:36

And we've seen a lot of

28:39

more interest in

28:41

recent years around ESAs, and

28:45

especially since school closures

28:49

around the pandemic and just

28:51

that disruption, you know, disruptive force and

28:53

that shock to K-12

28:56

education around the country and

28:58

then varying a lot state to

29:00

state. But I think

29:03

that, you know, with so

29:05

many of these programs and legislative

29:07

activity the last few years, has

29:10

just channeled that, you know,

29:14

desire for more opportunity

29:16

and more options,

29:19

more flexibility. You

29:22

know, the parents have been voicing in

29:24

all sorts of ways, whether it's a

29:26

school board meetings, which, you know, a

29:28

lot of those

29:30

activities, you know, those kind of demonstrations

29:34

or, you know, just being

29:36

very vocal about, you know,

29:38

their challenges families are

29:40

facing at school board meetings or through, you

29:43

know, through other means of voting and elections,

29:48

I think we don't get involved

29:50

in as an organization, but we

29:52

just, You know, our mission is to

29:54

just continue to inform and just try to

29:56

bring as much data and information to bear

29:58

on these. Different

30:00

issues and and and I'm

30:02

really that doesn't. Pay

30:05

on our particular political stripe

30:07

ah from my experience simulate a

30:09

oh well and on the research

30:11

data side and our teams

30:13

experience Lt on a policy.

30:15

Now me to see Siberia we're

30:18

willing in a war and ah

30:20

enthusiastic to talk to anyone.

30:22

it's a mouse or these

30:24

these issues because of really you

30:27

know done when and his family

30:29

experiences and student experiences. Does

30:31

political on a with ideological

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Even more of your kids and grandkids

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Grove we don't need economists a lie

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true and I've heard recently in

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i think this is true of

31:49

myself as well people expressing Culver

31:51

City is are sick of clicking

31:54

on stories. about covered sick of hearing

31:56

about cove him but i have to ask

31:58

pol how covered I'm guessing

32:00

this is a leading question, but it sort of

32:02

galvanized the school choice movement. And

32:05

if that's true, even

32:07

today, now that we

32:09

have some distance from COVID and it's a bit

32:12

in the rearview mirror, what role maybe

32:14

you think or you've seen

32:16

the decisions that some unions

32:19

made around the country, maybe

32:21

even not some, but like the big

32:23

national union made around the country. In

32:26

certain cities like Chicago, this was

32:29

especially acute. So

32:31

is it, did COVID galvanize

32:33

the school choice movement? And

32:35

if so, what role did the decisions

32:38

that unions made play into that? So

32:42

that's a really good question. And

32:45

to be candid, we

32:47

don't have the data to

32:50

make that direct causal link.

32:54

However, it's in between the kind

32:56

of the union obstructionism and this

32:59

again is national union and it's not

33:02

rank and file members, it's the elites and

33:04

the leadership of these unions who make these,

33:07

you know, who end up making

33:09

these decisions. Chicago is a great example. And

33:12

then there were some other cities as

33:14

well that dealt with these closures for

33:16

much longer periods of time because of

33:19

that kind of obstruction. And

33:22

so we don't have the data to

33:24

link that, but at the very

33:27

least it energized, I

33:29

believe, parents and so

33:31

there was kind of the action

33:33

and, you know, reaction kind of

33:35

effect here where parents, I mean,

33:38

parent engagement, parent involvement in their

33:41

children's learning and their schooling, that

33:46

is something that we have seen and

33:48

I've been with our organization for

33:51

almost 18 years and, you

33:54

know, the level of parent engagement

33:56

interest, I mean, it continues to,

33:58

you know, increase. increase at higher

34:00

levels than we've seen. And that certainly

34:03

has happened over the last four

34:05

plus years. And so at least

34:08

from a fly point of view, I mean, I'd

34:10

venture to say from our organization, our experience, I

34:13

mean, parents are

34:15

more engaged, more activated, more

34:18

interested, wanting more information.

34:21

And that has provided, to

34:23

some degree, some counterbalance to the

34:27

opponents of educational

34:29

choice, whether

34:32

it's the National Education Association or from

34:34

the American Federation of

34:36

Teachers and

34:38

CF groups and

34:40

organizations like the National

34:43

Parents Union is one

34:45

of the largest ones that come to mind who are

34:47

very effective with parent ambassadors

34:49

around the country and organizing.

34:53

And then there are just more

34:55

local and state-specific parent groups and

34:57

organizations that

35:00

are not only activating parents

35:03

but really

35:05

zeroing out certain types of policies

35:07

that can support families. And

35:10

so I'm thinking, I love your school in Arizona.

35:12

They do work in Arizona as

35:15

well as in West Virginia. I

35:17

mean, they're really helping families navigate

35:20

and consider and review their options for their

35:22

child's having a tough time in their current

35:25

school. How can the

35:28

ESA program in Arizona help

35:30

them and benefit them and really

35:32

be a positive change for their

35:35

child? And so there

35:37

is more of these local and

35:39

state organizations who

35:41

we like

35:44

to work with and in many ways

35:46

defer to their judgment

35:48

too. And they

35:51

understand the local environment and the

35:53

local context better than we will.

35:56

And so we try to

35:58

provide the resources. and

36:00

the information that can help them. And

36:03

so that's been exciting to

36:05

see where, yes,

36:07

there were, you know, these,

36:09

you know, protests,

36:12

strikes that happened and even,

36:14

you know, extended closures during

36:16

the pandemic. But then, you

36:19

know, there's also been

36:22

a positive effect or a counter

36:24

effect. I guess if you want

36:26

to say, of parents just being

36:28

much more engaged, much more involved,

36:30

much more organized than

36:32

ever before. That is

36:34

just fascinating. Paul, is there anything else you think

36:36

people should know about the work that you guys

36:38

are doing at A Choice or maybe

36:41

the broader movement before we wrap

36:43

up? I

36:46

think, no, I appreciate that question,

36:48

Emily. I mean, I think, you know,

36:50

people are interested in polling and surveys.

36:53

We do have a monthly tracking

36:55

poll that we're actually

36:57

just releasing in the next week, our

37:00

latest poll of parents and the public.

37:03

And then we do surveys of teachers and of

37:05

teenagers twice a year, but at the beginning and

37:08

the ends of the school year. And

37:10

so we just released a couple of reports there. And

37:13

then we have a lot of

37:15

information on our website about

37:17

all the different types of educational choice programs

37:19

around the country. And so

37:22

anyone's interested in learning

37:24

more about education savings accounts

37:26

and what they

37:29

can do for families and

37:31

other types of school choice

37:34

policies and programs around the

37:36

country. We have a lot

37:38

of data, historical data that goes back to the

37:40

inception of these programs. And

37:42

then we're always happy to provide anything or just

37:44

answer any questions to and really try

37:47

to be as an open organization and

37:50

team for people interested

37:52

in learning more about what's

37:55

happening in the Education

37:58

Choice Space. What

38:00

happening in the days are blind

38:02

eye. Every months we have some

38:05

updates about see the latest developments

38:07

that are happening in states and

38:09

we've teaches in this past week

38:11

saw Missouri it's expand the eligibility

38:14

their tax credit. He has a

38:16

program which is really encouraging. Now

38:18

we see new a universal program

38:21

that be enacted in Alabama never

38:23

signed into law by Gov I

38:25

mean in their nominate. And

38:27

and and Georgia even expanded style

38:30

and and created or on op

38:32

program or the is a program

38:34

this year. So sorry we received.

38:36

We're still seeing this movement on

38:38

just even in an election year

38:41

which is not very typical storm.

38:43

and so that guy goes. This

38:45

is show that they're done it,

38:47

there's a momentum and at Mcgill

38:50

is encouraging and and we're hoping

38:52

to see more programs expand the

38:54

eligibility for students, lower the barriers

38:56

for entry. it's. For entrepreneurs

38:58

and micro school not ah

39:00

ah micro schoolers are to

39:02

aerospace and and and and

39:04

yelled and to see more

39:07

entrepreneurial activity is to balance

39:09

the de Mayo to meet

39:11

the demand that's been growing

39:13

or the recent years. Or

39:16

it will. You can find out

39:18

more at and choice.org Pulled. The

39:21

Perna: Thank you so much for getting us up

39:23

to date on everything that you guys are doing!

39:26

Is great beer. Thanks alot Emily. Of

39:28

course I know additions geek culture editor

39:30

here at The Federalist. you been listening

39:32

to another edition of the Federalist Radio.

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Our. Will be back soon! Was more into

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