0:06

The Chinese government was desperate. By

0:08

eighteen o nine, pirates had taken over their shipping

0:10

roots, their trade deals were in jeopardy.

0:13

Two navy admirals committed suicide

0:16

rather than face being captured by the pirate leader

0:18

who had a stranglehold on the South China Sea,

0:21

the one who controlled a fleet of sixty thousand

0:23

men, a crew at least twice as

0:25

large as the Spanish Armada. Desperate

0:28

times called for desperate measures, and

0:30

the Chinese government asked the British and Portuguese

0:33

navies for help to defeat the pirates. The

0:36

Portuguese men of war, backed up

0:38

by the Chinese navy, rendezvous

0:41

on the ocean side of the island of Land Tau,

0:43

hoping to sneak up on the pirates. They

0:46

tried to take them down with a cannon attack from the sea,

0:48

but couldn't get close enough. They

0:51

edged on to the shore, hoping to corner

0:53

the pirate ships, and

0:57

then out of nowhere, the pirates

0:59

came bearing out on the Portuguese, driving

1:01

their ships directly into the Imperial fleet.

1:04

The pirates never should have survived, but after

1:07

a six day battle they hadn't lost a single

1:09

ship. The Portuguese

1:12

again tried to take them down with a cannon attack

1:14

from the sea, but once again their boats

1:16

couldn't get close enough. The

1:19

pirates escaped. With the Portuguese hot on their

1:21

heels. The

1:23

men of war unleashed fire vessels literal

1:26

burning boats after the pirates, hoping

1:29

to blow them out of the water, but

1:32

the pirate fleet managed to organize around the floating

1:34

fire bombs, extinguish them

1:36

and break them up for firewood. When

1:39

the wind shifted, the pirates once again escaped.

1:43

The most successful pirate of all time would

1:45

continue her reign of terror on the Chinese

1:48

government for another day. Yes,

1:52

her reign of terror. From

2:10

I Heart Radio and Tribeca Studios, This

2:14

is Fierce I Can't Type.

2:16

Women Problems

2:19

a podcast about the incredible women who never

2:21

made it in your history books and the modern

2:23

women carrying on their legacies today. Yours

2:25

to the ladies, the fair and the week.

2:28

I can't find women workers don't

2:30

mind routine, repetitive working. Will

2:33

you make a copy of this naturally?

2:35

Each week we're bringing you the story of a groundbreaking

2:38

woman from the past who made huge contributions

2:40

to the present, but whose name still

2:42

isn't on the tips of our tongues for whatever

2:44

reason, maybe it's

2:46

because men wrote most of history.

2:51

At the end of each episode, I'll be joined by a woman

2:54

living today who's standing on the shoulders of this historical

2:56

figure. Whether she knows it or

2:58

not, today's

3:15

story changes the

3:18

greatest pirate the world has ever known, the

3:20

pirate who reigned supreme over the Chinese government

3:22

during the nineteenth century. Afterwards,

3:25

we'll be talking to Tracy Edwards, a

3:27

sailing captain who fought her way into the man's

3:29

world of racing. The Skipper, the first all

3:31

female crew to race around the world, but

3:36

first changes in

3:41

China. During the nineteenth century, a woman's

3:43

most important job, her only

3:45

job, in fact, was to get married and bear

3:48

children for her husband, hopefully

3:50

boy children. Women had

3:52

no direct access to money or to power unless

3:55

they somehow obtained it through sex or marriage.

3:59

It was at the end of the eighteenth century. The little

4:01

Girl with no name or at any rate

4:03

and name forgotten in history, was born

4:05

on a floating village in the South China Sea

4:07

near Guangdong Province. We

4:10

don't know much about her early life. There

4:13

are a few stories, but not

4:15

that many written documents. We know

4:17

Her family probably belonged to the ethnic Tanka

4:19

group. They were considered c gypsies,

4:22

a group of people treated as no better than slaves

4:24

in the Chinese class system.

4:27

She was likely poor and illiterate, which

4:29

means she had almost no options except to

4:31

marry early or find some way to support

4:33

herself. The options for supporting

4:36

herself were few and far between, and

4:38

somehow the girl found herself working as a prostitute

4:40

on a flower boat. The

4:43

flower boats were like a floating entertainment

4:45

village. Think of a cruise

4:47

ship with illegal activities like gambling

4:49

and prostitution. Even

4:52

though she was likely illiterate, she was clearly

4:55

smart. She found ways to gain

4:57

small amounts of power and make extra money on the

4:59

boat from a very early age.

5:03

One story claims that the girl would extract money

5:06

from clients by blackmailing them with secrets

5:08

they divulged during their vulnerable

5:10

time with the prostitutes on the flower

5:13

boat. It

5:15

was a strategy that one our money, power

5:18

and the small amount of respect that a prostitute could

5:20

hope for at the time. One

5:24

day, when this woman was about a

5:26

rich and powerful pirate named Cheeny came

5:29

to visit the floating brothel. There

5:33

are two versions of this story. In

5:35

one, the pirate takes the woman captive,

5:38

but, overcome by the young woman's

5:40

beauty, asks her to marry him on the spot.

5:44

In the other, the pirate finds out about her side

5:46

hustle extorting cash for secrets. He's

5:49

impressed by her savvy and her brains,

5:52

and then he asked her to be his wife. In

5:55

both versions, this nameless girl saw an

5:57

opportunity, not just a way out,

6:00

but away into something bigger. See.

6:03

She wanted off that boat. She wanted

6:05

more power than she'd ever get selling

6:07

secrets. The pirate

6:09

king was smitten, whether by her beauty

6:12

or her brains, and the girl knew it.

6:15

She used that leverage to her advantage. So

6:18

she said she'd marry him, but only

6:20

if she got half his business, half

6:22

his pirate hall, and an equal voice in

6:24

running his pirrating empire. As

6:27

a twenty six year old newlywed, that nameless

6:29

girl took on a derivation of her husband's name.

6:32

History would remember her as Chengy saw.

6:36

She was not content to have

6:38

a subordinate role to her husband.

6:41

That's Laura Sook Duncan. She's a pirate storyteller.

6:44

The author of two books, pirate women, the

6:46

Princesses, prostitutes and privateers who

6:48

ruled the Seven Seas, and a

6:50

pirate's life For she, she wanted to

6:52

be an equal business partner, and

6:54

she wanted to rule their

6:56

pirate empire by his side,

6:59

and change E allowed her to do

7:02

so, probably because she was so good at it.

7:05

Now, there were other female pirates in the world

7:07

prior tour. Some of my favorites are

7:09

Anne Bonnie and Mary Reid, the women

7:11

who crewed with Calico Jack in the

7:14

Bahamas. Both of them were

7:16

captured and sentenced to death. They

7:19

escaped hanging when they were both found to be pregnant,

7:21

but changy Sou likely wouldn't have been aware

7:24

of them, and they were never as powerful as

7:26

she became. Over

7:29

the next nine years, the young prostitute

7:31

from the Flower Boat went on to become one of the most powerful

7:33

pirates the world has ever seen. Piracy

7:38

was a dominant force in the South China Sea, so

7:41

much so that during the Qing dynasty, the Chinese

7:43

government didn't even consider the deep sea

7:46

as a place belonging to them.

7:48

It was a separate space entirely, and

7:50

one to be feared. Changi

7:53

saw in. Her contemporaries operated about a

7:55

hundred years after what we typically consider

7:57

the golden age of piracy in the West, the

8:00

age of black Beard, Captain Morgan, Captain

8:02

Kidd, and Calca Jack, all

8:04

those men who plundered the Caribbean. Chinese

8:07

pirates were a little different. Instead

8:10

of operating in far away colonies, they worked

8:12

in direct proximity to the Chinese coast,

8:14

terrorizing the Chinese government where they lived and

8:17

worked, upsetting many

8:19

of their legitimate trade routes, and wreaking havoc

8:21

on the economy by plundering ships and coastal

8:23

villages and towns for cash and

8:25

commodities. The

8:29

pirates were also thugs for hire. They

8:32

often worked as privateers for the King of Vietnam

8:34

to fight against the Chinese government. But

8:38

until Chineseau came along, the Chinese

8:40

pirates were a rag tag bunch of opportunists.

8:43

They had very little organization. It's

8:48

not even really a controversial opinion

8:50

that she's the greatest pirate of all time. In

8:53

her career, she was in command

8:55

of somewhere between forty thousand and

8:57

sixty thousand pirates, and

8:59

she had around a thousand ships. Uh,

9:02

you know, black Beard in contrast, was active

9:04

for two years. He had at the most around

9:07

five ships. Her fleet

9:09

was bigger than many of the legitimate navies

9:11

of the time. She outclasses

9:14

every other known pirate by every

9:16

metric he would use to discover success.

9:19

By orders of magnitude. There's

9:21

just no comparison to what she did to what any other

9:23

pirate was able to accomplish.

9:26

Cheny Sal wasn't like the other women on

9:28

the South China see the ones who at the

9:30

mercy of the men in their lives. She

9:33

came on board as an equal. The men

9:35

were at her mercy. She made

9:37

sure of that. When

9:40

Cheny Sau came into her husband's operation,

9:42

he had about two hundred boats. I

9:44

was impressive, but not impressive enough

9:47

for her. She had plans to grow,

9:49

to innovate, and she didn't

9:52

want to waste time duking it out with the other pirates

9:54

for the same booty. So

9:57

less than a year into her marriage, Changy Style

9:59

proposed something right dical, something

10:01

she'd learned in previous battles they'd fought

10:03

together in Vietnam.

10:05

She proposed cooperation. Piracy

10:08

at this point was sort of you know, every man for himself,

10:10

every boat for himself, and they

10:13

learned that when you work together, you

10:15

are more of a force to be reckoned with,

10:17

and so they started building their

10:19

fleet. She was

10:22

a magnificent manager, and under

10:24

her guidance, the pirate fleet

10:26

just grew by leaps and bounds. I was able

10:28

to become the successful force

10:31

that no one was able to take down. Here's

10:35

what she proposed to the other pirates. You

10:37

can steal all you want from Imperial China

10:39

and the barbarian merchant ships, just

10:42

don't steal from the other pirates in our confederation.

10:45

The same goes for battle. We fight the Chinese

10:48

government, we don't fight each other. Next

10:52

up, changes Sau tackled organization, taking

10:55

the bands of pirates from ragtag marauders

10:57

to something closer to an actual navy.

11:01

Cheeny Sao and Cheeny color coded

11:03

the squadrons. The Changs took the red

11:05

flag, which is how they became the feared Red

11:07

Flag Fleet. The other squadrons

11:10

in the confederation Black, Green,

11:12

Yellow, White, and Blue were able

11:14

to remain somewhat autonomous, but they

11:16

all kind of tied for a second. Chany

11:20

Saw and her husband crafted familial alliances

11:22

through adoptions and marriages, making

11:25

sure that each squadron's leader had some kind

11:27

of family allegiance back to the Changs. It

11:30

was a system that would keep the Red Flag fleet decidedly

11:33

on top. And in the

11:35

midst of it all, Changes Sa managed to give

11:37

birth to two sons who she raised on her

11:39

ships. Cooperation,

11:43

structure, and organization paid off. Within

11:46

the year, the commander in chief of the Guangdong Province,

11:49

the coastal region the Pirates terrorized, had

11:52

been sacked and his general, Old

11:55

Tiger Huang was dead. The

11:57

Pirates were firmly in control of the South

11:59

China to see, all because

12:02

of Changes Sad. In

12:07

eighteen oh seven, Changy felt to his watery

12:10

death during a terrible typhoon. Another

12:13

story claims he was killed in a rebellion in Vietnam,

12:16

but the details don't actually matter that much either

12:20

way. At thirty two, Changes Saw was suddenly a

12:22

widow. In Confucian

12:24

culture, that meant one thing. Widow

12:27

chastity. Changes

12:29

Saw was supposed to go in the morning and remain unmarried

12:31

forever. This would have

12:33

meant giving up all her power and likely all of her

12:35

wealth too, everything she'd

12:37

fought so hard for, worked

12:39

so hard for. The

12:42

deal she'd made with her husband when they first started out

12:44

was for radical equality, profits

12:46

and power slipped right down the middle. That

12:49

deal died with Changy. There's

12:52

no reason to believe that anyone would hand over

12:54

half the Red Fleet fortune and let her sail off

12:56

into a life of virtuous chastity. Her

12:59

life, the one she'd meticulously

13:01

crafted for herself, could

13:03

have been over, but

13:06

she hadn't been a good Confusian wife to date. She

13:10

wasn't going to start now. Instead,

13:15

changes saw acted quickly and

13:18

with the opposite of chastity. There

13:21

were plenty of relatives and lieutenants who could

13:23

have claimed they were her husband's rightful heirs.

13:26

Cheni Sau decided to hand select the one who

13:28

would make the best puppet for her to retain her

13:30

power. Her best option

13:32

was her husband's adopted son, Chung Pao

13:34

Si. It was common practice

13:36

back then to adopt lieutenants as heirs. It

13:39

made them loyal to the family. This

13:42

meant that Chung Pausi had a legitimate

13:44

claim to power if he wanted it. So

13:46

Changi Sau decided it was worth her while to

13:48

cement his loyalty to her. She

13:51

seduced her husband's adopted son to keep him

13:53

on her side, but also squarely

13:56

under her. Her biographer

13:59

Dion Murray outed she seems to have acted

14:01

in open defiance of Confucian behavioral

14:03

norms. She was

14:05

anything but a docile, submissive,

14:07

and homebound wife. Within

14:11

weeks she had everything wrapped up. Changes

14:14

Sau was the undisputed commander in chief

14:16

of the Red Flag Fleet. That's

14:18

when she went about making it the most dominant and

14:21

successful pirate operation history

14:23

had ever seen. Under

14:25

Changes Sou's soul command, the Red Flag Fleet

14:28

continued to grow and thrive. At

14:30

its height, the red flag was flown on eight ships

14:33

in the South China Sea. Changes

14:35

Sound knew she needed to continue to unify her pirates

14:38

solidify her power. So, like

14:41

Hammurabi and Genghis Khan before

14:43

her, Chenghesau developed some codes,

14:46

and like her fellow warlords, hers

14:48

were brutal. Go

14:51

off shore without asking, lose your

14:53

ears for not listening. Do

14:56

it again. Instant death

14:58

by beheading, don't

15:01

turn over your fleet share of the booty first

15:04

time of beating, second time

15:07

your head. There were no

15:10

trials for these offenses. The justice

15:12

was immediate right there on the deck. You

15:15

just hope the cutlass was sharp. That

15:19

wasn't all she did. Changes

15:21

sound did something else that was completely

15:24

revolutionary, something that was

15:26

entirely unheard of. More

15:29

on that after a quick break. Changi

15:37

Sa was brutal and meticulous in her

15:39

control over her men. You

15:42

don't become more successful than Blackbeard without

15:44

being a little bit brutal. And

15:47

she had one final rule for them,

15:49

something no male pirate had ever done

15:51

before. She protected

15:53

women. She outlawed all rape

15:56

within her fleet. If a

15:58

male pirate saw a female captiv liked,

16:00

he had to marry her before he could touch her. Similarly,

16:03

if a man mistreated his wife, neglected

16:06

her, or otherwise harmed her in any way,

16:08

he got his head cut off. This

16:12

is just not something we've seen any

16:14

other pirate do before and certainly not

16:17

since. So she is protecting

16:20

women. It's orders of magnitude better

16:22

than what they could expect if they were captured

16:24

by other pirates and any other time of history.

16:27

Not all was rosie for the women captives. The

16:30

wealthy ones were still often ransomed off.

16:33

The poor ones were still sold to other pirates

16:35

as wives. Changes

16:39

Sau had thousands of ships working across the

16:41

South China Sea. She couldn't

16:43

be on all of them at once. It was her

16:45

codes that did the work of making sure every ship

16:47

had the same culture, the same laws,

16:50

and the same respect for one woman changes.

16:54

For it to work, she needed ironclad

16:58

obedience, and she was able to bring this about

17:00

by her code. There's

17:04

one more rule that's set the Red flag fleet up

17:06

for total dominance. And there was

17:08

another stroke of Chinese Sou's genius.

17:13

Of every hall went to the house. Each

17:15

ship's purser reported directly to her, and

17:18

her accounting was exact and merciless.

17:21

This created a kind of centralized bank that

17:23

bolstered the pirates in bad times as well

17:25

as good. It meant they didn't have to

17:27

be reactionary anymore. Piracy

17:31

prior to Chinese Seal was opportunistic.

17:34

It was all about whatever ship happened across your

17:36

path or didn't, and

17:39

that meant you were often hungry and poor and

17:41

desperate. When pirate ships

17:43

got too hungry or poor, they are prone to mutiny

17:46

or taking on battles they couldn't win. This

17:49

economic system allowed changes Sau

17:51

to keep all the ships equally well stocked and repaired,

17:54

to keep her crew happy. Having

17:57

money and security meant they could choose their battles,

18:00

and when they planned their battles, they

18:03

won. But

18:06

she wanted even more, and

18:09

so she learned to diversify.

18:12

She started a protection racket. Here's

18:15

how it worked. Imagine you have a

18:17

nice family fishing operation or assault

18:19

trade. You're regularly sailing

18:21

between Macau and the deep waters of the South

18:23

China Sea. You have two

18:25

main problems, typhoons

18:28

and pirates. For

18:31

a long time, you had no way of stopping either from

18:33

destroying you. Changi

18:36

Sao had a brilliant solution to the pirate problem.

18:40

Fishermen and traders could come to her and

18:42

buy themselves a protection card. Then

18:44

when a pirate stopped them and boarded their ship, they

18:46

could simply pull out their card, say

18:49

I'm under your protection, and they'll be on their way.

18:52

Caught without a card, the pirates would plunder the boat.

18:55

Anyone foolish enough to resist was often brutally

18:57

murdered. The protection

19:00

was a steady source of income because everyone

19:02

is afraid of pirates in the whole South China

19:04

Sea, most of them are afraid of her,

19:07

and so that dependable source

19:09

of income was what allowed

19:12

her to maintain her fleet. You know,

19:14

you can imagine someone getting a little

19:16

bit of power, um, you know, getting greedy

19:18

and building their empire bigger than

19:20

they can actually logistically maintain.

19:23

But she had the foresight to realize, it's

19:25

going to take a lot of money to keep

19:27

my massive empire afloat.

19:31

It's a great myth at pirates buried treasure

19:34

because they spent it as soon as they had

19:36

it, and sometimes before they had it. Uh

19:38

So this is another way in which Changhy Sao

19:40

is just thinking steps ahead and doing

19:43

way better than other pirates.

19:46

She has the foresight to establish

19:49

this steady stream of income so her

19:51

pirates don't go hungry and her empire collapses.

19:54

Cheny says focus was the salt trade

19:58

here as everywhere she

20:00

was being strategic. Salt was in

20:02

the top three tax exports for the Chinese government.

20:05

It was a cash cow, and Changes sound

20:07

exactly how to attack every single piece

20:09

of the supply chain. At the height

20:11

of her power, she had two hundred and sixty six

20:13

of the two hundred and seventy ships in

20:16

the Chinese salt trade under her protection.

20:21

Changes Sa became the scourge of the Chinese

20:23

government. They tried everything

20:26

at one point, they even moved every village inland

20:28

by ten miles to try to cut off the pirates

20:30

resources, but still

20:34

she remained undefeated. In

20:36

eighteen o eight, for example, she wipes

20:38

out about half of the Chinese navy

20:40

in one year. She's able to do that. Naval

20:43

captains would commit suicide rather than

20:45

be captured by her, So everyone is absolutely

20:49

terrified of her and completely

20:51

unable to stop her. The

20:55

government began calling her pirates the foam

20:57

on the sea because they literally

20:59

had the water is covered. Chany

21:02

Sao, who at that point was a more powerful

21:04

pirate than either black Beard or Captain Morgan,

21:07

became known as the Terror of the South China

21:09

seas. There's

21:11

no doubt she was a strategic genius. She

21:13

planned all the red flag fleets battles,

21:15

and they won nearly every battle. Their

21:18

numbers were so big that even the few

21:20

times they lost, there was another ship to sail

21:23

more pirates to add to their fight. So

21:25

by eighteen o nine, only two

21:28

years in the changes Sau's reign as commander in

21:30

chief, China was on its knees.

21:35

But then Changi Saw went and surprised everyone

21:37

all over again. She did something

21:39

else that her more famous male counterparts

21:41

like black Beard and Captain Kidd couldn't

21:44

or wouldn't do. She

21:47

retired. See,

21:51

Changi Saw had something most pirates lacked,

21:54

foresight and self preservation. She

21:57

had had a good run, an amazing

21:59

one, and she knew it. She

22:02

had the foresight to see that the golden age of piracy

22:04

couldn't last much longer. She

22:06

wasn't defeated, not even with

22:08

three world powers conspired against

22:10

her did she go down. But

22:12

having to fight more was making the piracy less

22:15

lucrative. She miraculously survived

22:17

battle after battle, but

22:19

she wasn't sure she wanted to fight for the rest of her

22:21

life. You know, all good

22:23

things come to an end. Nobody stays on top forever,

22:26

and chenes Saw understands this. So

22:28

she decides that she's

22:30

going to get out while the beginning is good,

22:32

you know, while the Chinese government is still terrified

22:35

of her. And like so

22:37

many other things that she did, she had to write

22:39

her own rules because no one had ever done it

22:41

before. On

22:46

April eighth, eighteen ten, Cheni Sau

22:48

entered the office of Pie Ling, the

22:50

Chinese governor General. She

22:53

was on foot, she was unarmed,

22:56

and she brought with her just seventeen women and

22:58

children from her fleet. Imagine

23:01

the contrast between the pirate tyrant

23:04

who terrorized, brutalized,

23:06

and murdered out on the open ocean for the past

23:08

nine years, with this

23:10

weaponless woman surrounded by innocence.

23:14

Changes sau knew how to put on a show. The

23:18

government wanted her to surrender peacefully in return

23:20

for a pardon. Now that would

23:22

hardly be worth it, not after she'd worked

23:24

so hard for all those years. She

23:27

refused to leave until she got exactly what she wanted.

23:30

She wanted to retain her fortune and eighty

23:32

ships in five thousand subordinates under

23:34

her command. She wasn't just negotiating

23:37

for herself, she was negotiating on behalf

23:39

of her men too. She wanted the government

23:41

to promise to provide a path to legitimacy

23:43

for the men who had worked under her, either within

23:46

civil service or within the Chinese military,

23:48

complete with government finance pensions. Changes

23:52

refused to leave her people high and dry, terrified

23:56

of what she'd be able to do if she continued in piracy.

23:59

The Chinese government conceded. They

24:01

gave her everything she asked for, a plus forty extra

24:03

ships, to make her own foray into the self trade

24:05

legitimate. Basically,

24:08

the government is paying these pirates to go

24:11

straight. So you know, most

24:13

pirates ended their career at the business

24:15

end of a cannon or on the end of a noose, and

24:18

these pirates get a government check when

24:20

they retire. So if that

24:22

doesn't demonstrate how incredibly

24:26

successful and unprecedented Changy

24:28

Sou's reign as a pirate queen was, I

24:30

don't know what does. She

24:33

received amnesty for her family, great

24:35

many of her crew, and she kept every

24:37

last piece of silver she'd won. She

24:40

was just thirty five, she

24:43

had decades of the good life ahead of her. Sources

24:48

are different how she lived out her retirement,

24:50

but everyone agrees she made money of some kind.

24:52

Some people said she opened up a brothel.

24:55

Some people said that she started a casino.

24:57

Some people say she lived a quiet life in the country.

25:00

But she died at the age of sixty

25:02

nine years old, one of the few

25:04

pirates, certainly one of the few notorious

25:07

pirates who was able to die of old age.

25:12

We're gonna take a quick break here. When

25:14

we get back, we'll have Tracy Edwards with us in

25:16

the studio. She's the modern

25:18

sailor who took on the patriarchy of the high seas.

25:31

Changes Sao took on the patriarchy of

25:33

both the Chinese government in the world of pirating.

25:35

In order to survive, she

25:37

had to be successful in order to live her life the

25:40

way she wanted to live it. With power

25:42

and agency, she brought

25:44

a decidedly female point of view to the Chinese

25:46

seas, introducing cooperation and

25:48

collaboration to complement her strategic

25:50

genius and at times brutality.

25:56

Nearly two hundred years later, another woman

25:58

took to the seas to infiltrate and con are

26:00

a world of men. Tracy

26:02

Edwards was the captain and navigator of Maiden,

26:04

the first sailing vessel with an all female crew

26:07

to race around the world. In

26:09

order for Tracy to survive in competitive sailing,

26:11

she had to prove she deserved to be taken seriously

26:13

in a male dominated industry. It

26:16

was a feat that seemed impossible even as recently

26:18

as the nineteen eighties. It's

26:20

extraordinary, isn't it that we are still having

26:22

this conversation? It does who

26:24

feel as if it's going round around circles, isn't

26:26

it? My name is Tracy upwards.

26:29

I used to be around the world sailor and now I'm a

26:31

social exist. In nine,

26:33

Tracy Skipper the first all female crew

26:35

and the Whitbread Round the World yacht Race. It's

26:38

a grueling nine month challenge that takes place

26:41

over thirty three thousand nautical miles

26:43

and involves sailing to the literal ends of the earth.

26:46

Welcome to the solvent, where we're only

26:49

minutes away from one of the most spectacular

26:51

sites in sport, the start of the Whitbread

26:53

Round the World Race. A documentary

26:56

also called Maiden, chronicles both Tracy's

26:58

journey around the world in her battle for survival

27:01

in a sport and industry mired in misogyny

27:03

and sexism. We'll be playing

27:06

some clips from Maiden throughout this interview. There

27:09

are the girls.

27:18

Tracy tried to break into the whip Bread Race for the

27:20

first time. At

27:22

the time, there were only four women sailors

27:24

participating on any of the twenty three boats.

27:27

Tracy had to fight to even get a place on a boat, and

27:30

even then she was offered the only job they thought

27:32

a woman should have, the position

27:34

of cook. But she took it.

27:36

So you know, I did learn a lot.

27:39

I I absorbed information from them, and

27:42

I thought, I would love to do this

27:44

again. But I'm a navigator, you know, and

27:46

I don't want to cook again. So

27:48

you know, my mom, as you say to me, if you don't like the way

27:50

the world looks, change it, don't mean about it. So

27:53

I thought, how do I change what this

27:55

looks like? I wanted

27:57

to be navigator on my own boat, and

27:59

I thought the only way can do that is to actually create

28:01

my own project, because no male crewise up going to let

28:03

me do that. And it's really

28:05

only in the last couple of years that women have

28:07

sailed around the world on men's boats as

28:09

navigators. So I was right.

28:12

The second thing was the all female crew bit, because

28:14

let's prove that women can do this, and

28:17

I guess really the whole female empowerment

28:20

thing, and the way we've ended up feeling about

28:22

that was because we had so much anti

28:24

sentiment about us during the race, so

28:26

it went from being a starfish reason to do it being

28:29

right, that's it. I want to fight for all the

28:31

women of the world, and we all ended up

28:33

feeling like that, Well, it was an all woman

28:35

crew. Yes,

28:38

I'm not surprised people have prepared

28:40

a better guess than there

28:44

was nothing to show that they would

28:46

ever be really acknowledged

28:49

for anything other than failure. What

28:55

told you that you could be a leader on

28:57

this belt, that you could lead this

29:00

our female crew? I guess I

29:02

had no preconceived ideas. So I just kind

29:04

of did it, and I just had the

29:06

best team in the entire world

29:09

who let me learn as I was

29:11

going along. I mean, you would never

29:13

be able to do that under man's boat ever. I

29:16

mean it was hard because the skipper

29:18

and navigator are two very different rules. Um

29:20

doing them both it was interesting.

29:23

So yes, I was the skipper,

29:25

but I mean I did the navigation, then discussed

29:28

with Dawn and Michelle what

29:30

we would do about where we were going and how we were

29:32

going to get there, and we would make a joint decision

29:34

about tactics and the best course.

29:37

Yeah, it was a real joint venture. T had

29:39

to me a little bit about organization of your crew

29:41

and what it was like to sail with an our female crew

29:43

versus and mostly male crew. It's

29:47

so different. It's not better or worse

29:49

for me. It was much better. You know, they listen,

29:52

we communicate better, We look after each other,

29:54

we respect each other. We talk a

29:56

lot. Sometimes there'd be days

29:58

on the guy's boat and no one would anything, and I'd

30:00

be like, I find that really

30:02

hard. We were a sisterhood

30:04

and and there was this huge sense of

30:07

responsibility for each other. You

30:09

know, you'd always notice if someone was looking a little

30:11

bit quiet or down, you know, and pick your arm around the

30:13

shoulder of great, thanks

30:15

very much. That was brilliant for me. I

30:18

loved signing with all female crews, and I

30:20

was well aware that people wouldn't be anxious to have us

30:22

in the race, but I was not prepared

30:24

for, you know, sort of the barrage of criticism

30:27

and then the great comments like you will die, you

30:29

know not you might, or you know you

30:31

might be taking a bit of a risk. Also,

30:34

my other favorite from men, women don't get

30:36

on. That's what we had the most of. More

30:39

than you're not strong enough, you're not skilled enough, you'll

30:41

you know you'll die, or whatever else the other things they

30:43

said. It was a

30:45

huge uphill battle, but we did

30:48

change minds, so that was the good past

30:50

about it. Not only did Tracy's

30:52

crew not die out there on the water, they

30:54

wildly exceeded everyone's ridiculously

30:56

low expectations. The

30:59

race that year was divided into six different legs.

31:02

That meant that each boat had the chance to quote

31:04

win a leg. Treacy's boat

31:06

made and ended up winning the most difficult leg

31:08

of the race, the one that traversed

31:10

the bottom of the world. So when

31:12

we set out on the second leg, we were

31:14

more than a little determined, and

31:17

I think as well, you know, we

31:19

had to fight so hard to be there that we were such

31:22

tight enknit, bonded team by

31:24

that point. By the time we set off into the

31:26

Southern Ocean, we were ready. It

31:29

was a hard leg, you know, it's it's seven thousand,

31:31

eight hundred miles longest leg the Whitbread has ever had.

31:33

Because of the partite in South Africa,

31:36

we can't go there because of the sanctions, so

31:38

you pretty much go across the bottom of the world. So

31:41

it was six nearly seven

31:44

weeks at sea, which

31:46

is a long time, and it's you

31:48

know, you've got conditions minus twenty monas, thirty

31:50

degrees blow freezing, you're dodging icebergs,

31:53

You've got this cold, You're constantly wet because

31:55

salt water doesn't dry, so the clothing

31:57

you're wearing fills damp all the time, so

32:00

it's not for the faint hearted. We

32:09

didn't see the first, but

32:12

party not the line that is

32:14

a bit. And

32:18

then coming up out of the Southern Ocean, coming

32:21

up towards land, it's an extraordinary

32:23

thing because it's been wet and cold and dark

32:26

and gray, and then suddenly you see blue sky

32:28

and sun and birds and

32:31

it gets warmer and you start drying stuff,

32:33

and as you get closer to land you

32:35

can smell land, and there's

32:38

always a competition see who can see it first. You know,

32:40

everyone's sitting there, eyes peeled a can

32:42

see land. We didn't know we were in the lead

32:44

at that point until we crossed the finishing line

32:47

and people in the support boats who

32:49

come out to see us, Okay, your first,

32:52

I thought, they said your third. I'm like dead

32:54

again. What turns

32:57

out we were first and it was amazing, absolutely

32:59

fancy. The first

33:02

time in twelve years a British

33:04

boat there's one, a leg of the Whitbread

33:07

Round the World Race. As they

33:09

crossed the line, the anation was obvious

33:11

as the crew celebrated the victory, many

33:13

who said it was impossible, and

33:15

soon afterwards they've replaced maidens

33:17

sales with the battle flag that fund

33:19

out the spirit of female defiance.

33:23

The girls say the victory is a victory

33:25

for all women sailors. Your

33:28

woman, You're thought you have to look like this. They

33:31

like that. You have to use this, use that. You can't

33:33

just suppose the cart of this. You have to wear the

33:35

right things. The elation. He spends

33:37

twenty eight days and had to wash and add a dress

33:39

cloth, lead added in your hair. It's great

33:42

to be loved it the person you

33:44

want to get drunk,

33:47

get drunk and eat a bacon sabage. I

33:50

have to say that coming into New Zealand, a

33:52

lot more people did start to take her seriously.

33:55

Bob Fisher, who had previously called us

33:57

a tinful of tart, decided

33:59

that we were not just a tin full of tarts. We were

34:01

a tin full of smart fast tarts.

34:05

Better. Yeah, better, much better, much better.

34:07

But you know, we had a little bit longer to get rid of the

34:09

word tarts. But anyway, but he was

34:11

one yussing journalist that really did go well.

34:13

I was so wrong. Very few did, very

34:16

yusing journalists. The guys on the race

34:19

very much did a wow that

34:21

was pretty amazing. And ye we

34:23

underestimated you, which was good, but

34:26

the questions at the press conferences

34:29

still exactly the same. So did you get

34:31

on this leg? Oh my god Almighty, never

34:34

ask guys that. And we

34:36

were actually the only crew that had stayed together the whole

34:38

time. Everyone else had people coming and going

34:42

the whole way around. The only

34:44

other boat that did that was the boat that came

34:47

first. We came second. So

34:50

that's really proof of keeping a great team together

34:52

and not having these rock stars come on and off the

34:54

boat, which is what some of the other boats did after

34:56

the race is over. You didn't die two

34:59

legs and amazing. What were the attitudes like

35:01

then? What Doris did that open for the women who

35:03

came after you. So at

35:06

the end of the days, we had this extraordinary welcome

35:08

coming into Southampton. Hundreds of boats came out to

35:10

see us, fifty people on the dock. I

35:12

mean, we were instant celebrities.

35:14

It was quite extraordinary and

35:17

a little daunting. But we've done what we set

35:19

out to do. Maybe we hadn't won, but

35:21

no one really seemed to care about that. We've done

35:24

so much better than anyone thought we would, so

35:26

that was great. The legacy from

35:28

Maiden is that we inspiled a lot of women to get

35:30

out there on the water, and there was amazing

35:33

women sailors out there at the moment. I mean, they are

35:35

legendary, They're so good

35:38

at what they do. So I'm very proud

35:40

of that you had said something and Maiden

35:42

about being on the sea and doing

35:44

this race. It gave you the sense of

35:46

freedom. And we

35:48

saw that a lot in cheny sound story.

35:51

That she earned her freedom, her

35:53

actual literal freedom by

35:56

working on this belt and by leading

35:58

this belt. What was freeing about

36:00

it for you? I love

36:02

her story so much. I mean, I just love what she

36:05

did. She was so smart, you know,

36:07

and I've just fascinated

36:09

by it. And of course I'm going why

36:11

I happened? I heard about it, and why don't I know

36:13

it? As so much a female history

36:15

I'm finding out now. But I did not know about Maiden.

36:18

So many people say to me, I didn't know about it. I had no idea.

36:20

So really not much has changed. No,

36:23

women are still being written nows of history, you

36:25

know, un as we scream and shout about and then we get called

36:28

hysterical Harrodins, you know, always

36:32

absolutely, And

36:35

if I can link back to this amazing lady.

36:38

I always feel when I'm out on the ocean that I'm

36:40

seeing what every historical sailor before

36:43

me saw as long as we can't see land,

36:46

you know, Columbus, everyone who

36:48

sailed before me, so exactly

36:50

what I'm seeing. That

36:54

blows my mind. And

37:01

I've never forgotten. We've never forgotten

37:04

sailing in through the harbor. I

37:07

did that. Excuse me, I

37:10

did that. Thanks

37:14

so much to Laura sup Duncom and Tracy Edwards

37:17

for joining us on this odyssey. Don't

37:19

forget to watch the documentary Maiden about Tracy

37:21

Edwards Landmark sail around the World, and

37:24

order Laura Suck Duncan's latest book, A

37:26

Pirate's Life for she Swashbuckling

37:28

Women through the Ages. Fierce

37:34

is hosted and written by Joe Piazza, produced

37:36

and directed by me Anna Stump. Our

37:38

executive producers are Joe Piazza, Nikki

37:41

Etre, Anna Stump, and from Tribeca Studios

37:43

LEAs RB. This episode

37:45

was edited and soundscaped by Julian Weller, with

37:47

additional editing support from Aaron Kaufman.

37:50

Our associate producer is Emily Marinoff.

37:52

Fact checking by Austin Thompson Research

37:55

by Lizzie Jacobs. The Fierce theme

37:57

is by Hamilton Lighthouser and Anna Stump. Additional

38:00

music for this episode by Blue Dots. Sessions are

38:02

very sincere thanks to Mangesha ticket Or

38:04

for making this series possible and to

38:07

Nikki etre Are, co executive producer

38:09

who literally moved mountains on a daily

38:11

basis to make this all happen. We are very

38:13

very grateful to you. Sources

38:15

for this episode Pirate Women, The Princess's

38:18

Prostitutes and Privateers who ruled the Seven

38:20

Seas by Laura Suke Duncan and

38:22

the article One Woman's Rise to Power, Chang's

38:24

Wife and the Pirates by Dion Murray, published

38:26

by Bergen Books in the academic journal Historical

38:29

Reflections. For

38:31

more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I

38:33

Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

38:35

you listen to your favorite shows.