0:00

So what happens if you get married and you get like a

0:02

bait and switch on something big like having

0:04

kids? What do you do about that? That

0:07

is a good question. What do you do about that?

0:09

What do you do? Well, in some sense, every marriage is a

0:11

bait and switch, right? Because you marry somebody. It's

0:13

true. No, I'm kidding. You know,

0:15

you end up being married and they become married,

0:18

Selena. The real... Married Ryan is not

0:20

the same as... The real dating Ryan. Date

0:23

Ryan. Date Ryan. Nice to meet me. Nice.

0:26

I should have busted up

0:28

my fedora. We always put our best

0:30

foot forward, right? When we're dating, we put

0:33

our best self forward. And I

0:35

mean, yes, you get to know each other, but

0:37

once you're married and you're committed and there's no

0:39

getting out of it, like all of the sin,

0:41

all the selfishness, everything about

0:44

you that you had so greatly hidden away,

0:46

right? It's going to come to light and

0:48

it's only a matter of time. So what

0:51

do you do when you step

0:53

into a marriage and you both

0:55

agreed at the beginning, like we want to have

0:57

children? And then first

1:00

two years into marriage, you're trying to have

1:02

a baby and all of a sudden one

1:05

of you says no. So this is actually

1:07

a question we got from a fierce marriage listener, which

1:09

we intend to

1:12

answer as well as we can, but

1:15

it brings to bear a

1:17

larger question. Is

1:19

it a moral obligation for Christian couples

1:21

if they're able to have kids? Married

1:23

Christian couples. Are you obligated to have

1:26

kids biblically? In other words, to

1:28

phrase it differently, is it a sin to intentionally

1:30

not bear children? So

1:33

we're going to talk about that on the other side. I'm

1:41

hooked. Were you hooked? I was very hooked. I'm here for

1:43

the rest of this episode. That's for sure.

1:45

I don't know if I will. You might

1:47

check out like 20 minutes in. So

1:50

this is a bit of an onion. There

1:52

are layers. Layers. And you start to

1:54

peel back the layers and you start to realize, oh, there's more

1:56

to this because we mentioned not having kids. Well, by what means

1:58

are you not having kids? That's a

2:01

whole nother conversation. It's a very different conversation.

2:04

And we'll touch on it here. I

2:06

think we don't need to spend hours on it. There's

2:08

a fairly clear Christian stance that

2:10

can be taken, should be taken. Before we

2:12

do that, I'm Ryan, this is Selena.

2:14

We are The Fredericks. We do Fierce Marriage just

2:17

about every Tuesday. We do Fierce Parenting about

2:20

every other Thursday at this point. So

2:22

if you're a parent, check out Fierce Parenting

2:24

on the YouTube channel and or the podcast

2:26

called Fierce Parenting. I haven't mentioned this, we

2:28

also have the Fierce Families Conference. We had

2:31

our first one about six months ago. Those

2:33

episodes are all up. They're not episodes. They're talks

2:35

that were given. I think there's like

2:37

16 of them or something. Power packed.

2:40

There's a lot of content there. Look

2:42

for the Fierce Families podcast. Listen

2:44

to that. Also, go

2:46

to fiercefamilies.com. There's audio and

2:49

video there as well. And on YouTube, you can

2:51

find the playlist. Final piece

2:53

of business, then we'll get into this content here. If

2:56

you'd like to partner with us, we've recently

2:58

gotten some new Fierce Fellowship. What

3:00

do you call them? Fellowshipers. Fierce Fellows.

3:03

Fierce Fellows. Thank you

3:05

and welcome. That means

3:07

the world to us. It's so encouraging when we see

3:09

that come in. Hey, you have a new Patreon supporter.

3:12

And that to me says, wow, the Lord is

3:14

providing. And wow, look at these other people that

3:16

are on mission with this. Yes, amen. And

3:19

so thank you. Thank you. If you

3:21

want to be a part of that, just go to fiercemarriage.com. You're

3:24

welcome here either way. But if that's where the Lord's leading you,

3:26

we ask you to pray about it and then go for it.

3:29

Okay. Okay. Business out of the

3:31

way. Let's get down to real business. Okay. So

3:34

we have this question in from Kimberly,

3:37

not Anon. Maybe they're friends. Anon's

3:39

giving us a break. Yes. What

3:43

do you do when your spouse tells

3:45

you they don't want children after previously

3:47

stating otherwise before marriage? My

3:49

husband and I have been together for six years, married for

3:51

almost two years, and have been trying to have a baby

3:54

for almost a year now. The Entire

3:56

time we've been together, we were both on

3:58

the same page about starting a family one

4:00

day. we've even have had a miscarriage back

4:02

in August and it absolutely devastated is both.

4:04

But just last week he decided to tell

4:06

me that he had a change of heart's

4:08

and he doesn't want a baby anymore. Apparently

4:10

he's been selling like this for a long

4:12

time. I don't even know how we move

4:14

forward from this. I feel so betrayed. I

4:16

love him so much, but I'm in complete

4:18

shock that this is even happening when the

4:20

same process of trying scuse me. We're in

4:22

the process of trying to get marriage counseling

4:24

through church, but in the meantime and need

4:26

some type of insight in this on the

4:28

situation, Please Help. Wealth.

4:32

Can really thank you for sharing.

4:34

It's as very tough topic ah

4:36

to share and to be transparent

4:38

about arm and suffering a miscarriage

4:41

and having to see. Just

4:43

barrier solon ceiling betrayed by your your your

4:45

spouse. So venue for running him up because

4:47

you're not alone I can guarantee you are

4:49

other people that are at least wandering around.

4:51

This quality and the situation going to be

4:53

different? Yes so thank you. I do want

4:55

to speak to the husband a little bit

4:58

on want to be gracious to him. Ah,

5:01

miscarriages a thing, husbands. Are

5:03

often overlooked in the pain that causes

5:06

that to husband noom hours on my

5:08

questions and reading that as or his

5:10

problems reeling in Ns and who knows

5:12

if he's resolved this in the heart

5:14

and in his mind so he's still

5:16

morning. As as

5:19

a potential yes, the other side to be.

5:21

You know I remember when you told me

5:23

that you were pregnant with our first. It's

5:26

like the whole world changes yeah for

5:28

us but that for thousand as well.

5:30

sick also and there's a third life

5:32

yeah and I as the the head

5:34

of household m response to be feel

5:36

the weight of that responsibility. And

5:39

so given the miscarriage or them be could

5:41

be the case that he felt the weight

5:44

of that his his shoulders and the miscarriage

5:46

head there was a mourning process. The

5:49

baby passed away. And

5:51

that's that we. Is. Is it

5:53

at minimum it's changed? It may not be completely

5:55

lifted because you have a child that you are

5:57

threats. And you never get over that in the

5:59

sense. But. He. Made thinking

6:01

I don't know if I can bear that wait,

6:04

wait again, way I can either. That was gonna

6:06

crush me. it didn't in that way. So swollen.

6:08

Go into that cycle of of train and

6:10

then waiting and try again and. Endzone know

6:13

when we were first train. People who are

6:15

like oh the doctors I don't toss me

6:17

and till he's done it for tried for

6:19

six months and now as even heard Saucer

6:21

say, don't talk to me unless you've been

6:23

trying for year so there's there's kind of

6:25

a lot of messages being shot at. New

6:27

couples are people trying to have their first

6:30

children and it's hard to sift through all

6:32

of those things I'm and then yes, you

6:34

do Stuff with suffering a miscarriage is a

6:36

loss of life. Awesome. Intentional. I'm. A

6:39

future rate that the child and so the hard

6:41

things and I think we tend to me the

6:43

address see the impact that they have on our

6:45

hearts. And souls minds many

6:47

so. All. That businesses that

6:49

was the prefers to what we're about

6:51

to say. ah it is is tough.

6:54

On the other side, given what you're you're going through

6:57

together, Yeah. Oh, and I want to say this. Group.

7:00

You're in the right. Arm. Process.

7:02

Of trying to get council from your pastors.

7:05

The. To doing that, purse persevere

7:07

through whatever A In are, so

7:09

there is whatever hurdles you have

7:11

to jump over, scheduling wise, whatever

7:13

logistics to make those. Yeah, that

7:15

council happen. So you have to

7:17

work through this. I'm so with

7:20

that. The. Wife I think in this

7:22

case does have a right to to feel betrayed.

7:24

The and. Are. You

7:26

have a pretext. Before. You

7:28

entered into the Merrill Covenant his name. A This

7:30

is the type of family we want to build.

7:32

This is who we want to be. This is

7:34

as your future husband. I also want to me

7:37

the future yeah father of your children. Are

7:40

that's a betrayal of trust Law and

7:42

Am from. The wife sides whenever I,

7:44

if ever I hear she say i've been

7:46

thinking about this I've been feeling say for

7:48

a while. To me that sells. Betray it

7:51

like a betrayal because you haven't even

7:53

come to me when the initial feelings

7:55

or notion their thoughts started so that

7:57

we could discuss this like as a

7:59

couple as a married couple. So not

8:01

only has Sl betrayed when you. You

8:03

know this: She might have felt betrayed first

8:05

at the altar. Nina we may be

8:07

from says we were under the pretense. Now

8:09

you're telling me use these not wanted this

8:11

for how how long and and now it's

8:13

like it feels like another just job. Right

8:16

Does not clear whether or not

8:18

he didn't want kids before they

8:20

first conceived, ramp or after birth

8:22

since last. Ah, but the question

8:24

that brings to bears his. You

8:27

had clarity around this current reality before you

8:29

got married. In other words as he knew

8:31

you're marrying a guy who did not want

8:33

kids. Same. Lesson from

8:35

com or sets and conversation and he may

8:37

not have chosen to marry. Him

8:40

and. So. Vs with

8:42

the terms of chains are the terms haven't changed

8:45

with the delivery on those terms has has changed.

8:47

Yes, Three, I think you have a right to

8:49

be frustrated to be a little overwhelmed by this

8:51

and to want to get to the bottom of

8:54

it and to want to lord willing get back

8:56

to that plan. Agreement. As

8:58

you want a good thing yeah kids

9:00

are good amounts We we have to.

9:03

Pass. This out. Okay. so. We're.

9:05

Gonna the big next question? Meaning that. Is.

9:08

So. Is is not just a is a just

9:10

a preferential thing. Do we have freedom? As Christians. To

9:14

forgo the blessing of children. Yeah,

9:17

because God call something a blessing or we. Obliged.

9:20

To receive that blessing. On.

9:23

Us to be question but before we can answer that.

9:25

You listener. Couple. Whether

9:27

you whether Kimberly it's you wrecked listen to

9:30

this or her husband listening this or couples

9:32

who would be in the situation. Are you

9:34

speaking another couple? Yes, You have to ask

9:36

yourself this question: Do I actually care what

9:38

the Bible says. It

9:41

is start their we have to start there because

9:43

we we are opinions or matter. And

9:46

and ah, see this lovingly friend. Your opinion

9:48

doesn't matter either in terms of what other

9:50

people should do. Yes, we have to look

9:53

at an authority greater than us and say,

9:55

what does our authority say? What does God's

9:57

Word say. And if we

9:59

see what it. says, then the rubber meets the road

10:01

and we say, does it actually influence how we behave?

10:04

Yeah. Because otherwise we're just talking in circles. That's

10:06

putting it nicely. I'm just like, we have to

10:08

go to the authority, the truth. It

10:12

is not just another opinion. Like God's word

10:14

is the ways. Right. You

10:17

either obey it or you reject it. And

10:19

you disobey it. And so the question is, do

10:22

you care about obeying God? If you do, this

10:24

is something that is required of us in order

10:26

to be obedient to God. Okay. So what does

10:28

the Bible say? You all know

10:30

this, the Bible calls children a blessing, a heritage

10:32

from the Lord. This is

10:34

one of the main themes. This comes from Psalm 127,

10:36

three through five. Behold,

10:39

children are a heritage from the Lord. That's also

10:41

translated as blessing in some of the places. The

10:44

fruit of the womb, a reward like arrows in

10:46

the hand of a warrior are the children

10:48

of one's youth. Blessed is the man who fills

10:51

his quiver with them. He

10:53

shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his

10:55

enemies in the gate. You

10:58

all know that verse and you even hear the word quiver. Depending

11:00

on how you grew up, you might be thinking

11:02

of the opposite end of the spectrum, the quiver full

11:04

movement, which basically says

11:07

like, you should never try to not

11:09

have kids

11:12

whenever you're having sex with a couple.

11:15

It should always be a possibility. And

11:18

in doing that, you are trusting that into the Lord and he's giving

11:20

you the blessings that he would have you have. But

11:23

I'm not a proponent of the quiver full. We

11:27

are not. Because

11:30

I don't think I think that's taking it to

11:32

the nth degree that it's not necessarily biblical. People

11:35

argue for it. So we're not going to make the argument

11:37

counter it right now. We're not going into that level of

11:39

detail. But I just

11:41

want to kind of hedge that some people that

11:43

might be thinking that right now. But

11:45

the big theme we see in Scripture is

11:47

that the value of children and every instance

11:50

and every narrative that we see as

11:53

God is talking to his people, as God

11:56

is talking to the admin, even the garden will read

11:58

this passage next. He says. He

12:00

does have a command to them, go and be fruitful.

12:02

That is a command. But

12:05

in every instance, the value of children

12:07

is presupposed. It's assumed. There's

12:09

never a sense in which children are

12:11

not to be wanted, they're

12:13

not to be valued. Children

12:16

are a vast sign of wealth. And

12:19

that is the mindset of the scripture.

12:21

Now, Selena, what is the mindset of our

12:24

modern day and age around children? What is it?

12:27

Not that. We've got this

12:29

disordered value

12:31

of them, right? We are

12:34

not valuing them in the sense that God

12:36

has given them to

12:38

us as a blessing. We now, our

12:40

modern day sees them as a, what's the

12:43

word? A lifestyle choice. Yeah, like a lifestyle

12:45

choice or just kind of a token of, we

12:47

had our kids, we did the thing. That's

12:50

the next step. We

12:54

don't want to be inconvenienced, right? We want to

12:56

have them at the right time. We want

12:58

to have the right amount and the right

13:00

gender. Those, all those kinds of particulars, right?

13:03

To fulfill our own desires. Right.

13:07

It's the level up in my

13:09

lifestyle. That's how I

13:11

level up. God forbid he actually, the God of all

13:13

knowledge and wisdom have a better,

13:16

bigger, more beautiful, vast reason than

13:18

we could ever comprehend. And that's the product

13:20

of many, the water we're

13:22

swimming in, the

13:25

hyper individualistic, the atomization

13:27

of people, all the

13:29

way back to the enlightenment. And

13:32

just the idea that I am the arbiter of

13:34

my destiny and mix that

13:36

with a good dose of consumerism,

13:38

mix that with culture

13:42

that's detaching sex from procreation at

13:44

every turn. Yeah.

13:46

So you start to see children as a

13:48

lifestyle choice. That's how you level up. The

13:51

same can be said about a wife, right? I

13:54

talked to young brothers who are, you know, they're, they're

13:56

looking out at the landscape at, you know, they're

13:59

single. might be trying to find

14:01

a girl to date, to marry,

14:03

and he who finds a wife

14:05

finds a what? A good

14:07

thing. So being married

14:09

is good. It's normative. It's right.

14:11

It's a good pursuit. But

14:14

many see marriage as a lifestyle choice in the same way. I

14:17

think as Christian couples, we can't step into

14:19

marriage without also

14:22

saying yes to having children,

14:24

right? We're not... Do you understand what

14:26

I mean? When we take a piece apart... I

14:29

do tend to agree, and the reason

14:31

why, biblically, is going to come from chapter 1.

14:33

I'm just saying, when we take apart a piece like, I want

14:35

to get married because I want to get married. It's that next

14:37

step. It's what we do. You're saying it's a whole package.

14:39

I'm saying it's a whole package, yes. So

14:42

if you plan on getting married,

14:44

remaining childless before

14:47

you head into marriage, then is marriage for

14:49

you? Well, but I want companionship. I

14:51

want, well, okay. Let's talk about

14:53

that. Again, we're taking what we want,

14:56

right? Or scooping the cream off the

14:58

top and not... Sure. And

15:00

that's not to say the rest of marriage is

15:02

a cakewalk. No. Kids aren't involved. No, but the

15:04

point... The idea, and it's naive of

15:06

someone to think that. So here's where that

15:09

thought's coming from, Genesis 1.28, and it says, And

15:11

God blessed them... He's in the garden, of course. And

15:14

God said to them, first command. Second

15:19

command, multiply. Third

15:21

command, fill the earth. Fourth command, subdue

15:23

it. And fifth, have dominion over

15:25

the fish of the sea, over the birds of the heavens,

15:27

and over every living thing that moves on the earth. So

15:31

the first charge is

15:33

to bear children. The second

15:35

charge is to multiply,

15:38

to do the same. And then

15:40

only the third, the fourth, and the fifth have

15:42

to do with the dominion, the work, and subduing

15:44

the earth. And so, so

15:46

often, we flip it. Now,

15:50

this is in the context of

15:52

creation, so it's baked in, arguably,

15:54

to what God created man for.

15:56

Now, we'll

16:00

see the similar passage in Genesis 9 here. And

16:03

then I'll address one of the arguments that I can

16:05

already hear in my head. Genesis 9,

16:07

1 says, in God bless Noah and his sons is

16:09

post flood. They're coming out of the ark, right? And

16:12

he said to them, be fruitful, multiply, and fill the earth. So

16:15

if you remember the story of the flood, everybody's

16:19

killed, except for Noah

16:21

and his family and the animals

16:23

in the ark. And now they're

16:25

stepping out and he's giving them the same command to

16:27

be fruitful, multiply, and fill the earth. And

16:31

then again, six verses later, he says,

16:33

and you be fruitful, multiply, increase greatly

16:35

on the earth and multiply in it.

16:38

So what do you hear right

16:40

now? Some might say

16:42

that these two statements, okay, it's

16:44

post kind of apocalyptic event after

16:48

the flood. And then the Edenic

16:50

version, Adam and Eve, was

16:53

post creation. So

16:55

they're unique because humanity was just starting out.

16:57

There was no, they were the seed of

16:59

humanity. Every marriage is just starting out. But

17:02

yeah, they had to have that command. Right.

17:04

Well, did they though? Like, but

17:07

that command was for them in that time.

17:09

It wasn't, it's not necessarily for Ryan and

17:11

Selina. It's not necessarily for Kimberly and her

17:13

husband. They could say that people could

17:16

argue that. Yeah. And so now

17:18

what's the, what's the counter to that? Well,

17:21

it comes back to what I said about it being baked in.

17:23

Is it part and parcel

17:26

with humanity themselves? Yeah, because

17:28

God didn't, I mean, I don't want

17:30

to say God didn't say, because there's

17:32

a lot of things that we can

17:34

leave unsaid, but it wasn't a cutoff

17:36

for the blessing. There wasn't a cutoff for like

17:38

the multiplying. Sure. Go and do it. Just in

17:40

the context of marriage, the context of

17:43

covenant, do these things. Yeah. Does this apply

17:45

to all Christians? Does

17:47

just like it applied to Adam and Eve. Does it

17:49

apply to us? Like it applied to Noah and his

17:51

family? Well, let's look at

17:54

Exodus 20. Just it's

17:58

the 10 commandments. And It says this, Make

18:01

for yourself a carved image or your likeness. Anything

18:03

that is in heaven above or that is an

18:05

earth beneath was in the water under the earth.

18:07

You. Shall not bow down to them or serve them for I the

18:09

Lord your god, I'm jealous God. Visiting. The

18:11

inequity father's on the children in the third and

18:14

fourth generation, but of those who made me but

18:16

showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love

18:18

me and keep my commandments. Two.

18:20

Thousand Generations a think Some

18:22

translations say. So.

18:26

Two. Thousand generations does that sound like a

18:28

month as as I get slow down and

18:30

Ramnaresh have you seen since Range Adam and

18:32

Eve? Are you thousands of

18:34

generations out gray? And it's not like

18:36

a literal his like thousands. It's still

18:39

an ambiguous military like yes, perpetual growing

18:41

around or Asians. And so I'm not

18:43

saying that that's the last the commander

18:45

have as many kids you can spam.

18:47

Saying that there seems to be this

18:50

idea that the fruitfulness should extend for

18:52

long and types and this is more

18:54

universal idea. Even due

18:56

to army Twenty eight. I'm. Italian.

18:59

My blessings for obedience and blessings for cursing and

19:01

and he says you'll be blessed if you obey

19:03

the voice and lord your God bless So you

19:06

be in the city plus a be in the

19:08

field. Bless Shelby The fruits of your womb and

19:10

the fruits of your ground and the food your

19:12

cattle So give me see the same sort of

19:14

order and you as a people. In

19:16

your obedience as a result of it. And

19:18

because of God's Grace Him. He.

19:20

Will be blessed. Now. You

19:23

yourselves will be blessed and. In

19:25

just being you and and living your life. How

19:28

that's work itself out Your children. And.

19:30

First thing the and then it's gonna be

19:32

the cattle from the seal team is first

19:35

in release. Least. Flip flop

19:37

those orders sell his children are

19:39

valued in all of scripture are

19:41

the reasons why. Legitimate reasons why.

19:44

Christian Couples should not have such. I mean. Yes,

19:47

a physical ah an impairment.

19:49

write something that would with.

19:52

It at make them unable to that.

19:54

That's one. I guess yes of course

19:56

is it had Aussie not are some landed

19:58

that's the lord Prague and raise some but

20:00

others was both site. Modest.

20:02

Amount Kids. Paul. Been

20:05

married Inept is married have kids. Bolland married

20:07

have kids. Both.

20:09

Okay, Fund. Marriage is

20:12

not necessarily a command. Minutes. To

20:14

take it for a know they got it all Sell

20:16

It was not said by that. If you get basically

20:18

take marriage and kids are a package straight. The

20:21

starts to make all the more sense in

20:23

that if there's a reason for the to

20:25

becoming one flesh yes that is. Very.

20:28

It almost like uncomfortably.

20:30

Physical. In

20:33

remains as I think as christians i say oh

20:35

yes cut a nice to become one flesh and

20:37

the so symbolic in a so obviously you know

20:39

count me in the mere there's a unity that

20:41

happens in the outer sexual intimacy if is going

20:44

in all that spiritual to see also wonderful but

20:46

the literal out where he not as to becoming

20:48

one flesh. And. I

20:50

gobbled rights on that. That

20:52

child. The Legacy

20:54

as we can be. No one flash

20:56

of the child Laden becoming a the

20:58

child becomes the one that comes from

21:00

the To as a make into. This

21:02

is kind of of the rabbit hole.

21:04

Think about how a soul is created

21:06

okay and how the imputation of Adamson

21:08

through yeah so the does go a

21:10

little bit. And of a weirdly deep

21:13

a more than I realized up to about

21:15

two months ago. But the point of trying

21:17

to make is that there's a very physical

21:19

aspect to to become one flesh marriage been

21:21

that avenue through which that union happens. Yes,

21:23

the natural package our king of that had

21:25

his. Child. Bearing S couple that

21:27

with the census one Mandy gold be

21:29

from for multiply. couple that again with

21:31

Genesis ninth, two normally twenty eight. It

21:33

doesn't only a lot of around for

21:35

a Christian couples who are able. To.

21:38

Not have to choose to not have

21:40

kids and and and still be obedient.

21:43

Is. At to bowl to say like there's not a lot of

21:45

room for. A safe to sorry that

21:47

A lot of room. Yeah, so now.

21:51

Cause. There's gonna be the what about. Stuff.

21:54

There's another big questions or what have we want to

21:56

weights and what if we don't want seven kids we

21:58

would have have to. Being.

22:01

That Fleener to said this and I I

22:03

agree because we've had this conversation already in

22:05

advance. Of there is

22:07

little room. I think for us

22:09

to say. That. A christian

22:12

couple has complete freedom to.

22:15

Choose. Childlessness if they're able to have

22:17

kids now, how does that mean runs from

22:19

the think that if you're married, you have

22:21

to have kids. Or. Let's read

22:23

some articles from. I'm from some some pretty

22:26

park smart people I'm in love The Lord

22:28

or John Piper been one of them. Are

22:30

the guys over at linear. Name's.

22:32

Tim Charlie's which he missed him in the

22:34

past. They all kind of I think resonate

22:36

with. Ah, What

22:38

we're saying in. So we're not

22:40

on an island in this. yeah I'm They

22:43

resonate with us. And but John Pipers addressing

22:45

the missionary thing and six somebody wrote in

22:47

and said i know these said he was

22:49

from this bill for couples to wait to

22:51

have kids. And

22:53

to limit the number of children they have.

22:55

and he said it is permissible in some

22:58

cases for missionary couple to forgo children altogether.

23:00

But how about not missionary christians? Soon as

23:02

we going to get into this the the

23:04

weeds of. Have that conversation great

23:06

but what he so he citizens big

23:08

theme and what he struck me was

23:10

at the end of. The. Article

23:12

by John Piper. By. Which wanna

23:15

look it up? It's on Desiring God and

23:17

it's called Are Christian couples required to have

23:19

kids. Is

23:22

a big themes that children are precious gift wrap

23:24

his on that. He had another big theme that

23:26

God knows families or struggles of some the argument

23:28

that are made around this are wanna want to

23:31

bring kids into a hard life for kids will

23:33

make our life harder because we can afford it

23:35

or what's not mature enough and are ready for

23:37

at an art So he's saying that God knows

23:40

will struggle yet. Still, Calls

23:42

it a blessing family. Still good. Yeah,

23:44

it's it. So that leads to the

23:46

next. Big. Theme that he

23:48

addresses. The gold his life

23:50

is not to avoid struggle right thought to

23:52

avoid hardship among say oh that's a hard

23:55

thing therefore I don't want to. Write. That's

23:57

just our tendency in our self preservation

23:59

and our fear, right? But it's in

24:01

that the bible tells us that even

24:03

and are suffering like we're we're like

24:05

Christ Like you suffer as as cry

24:08

suffered and know that we will. There's

24:10

a promise at the end. Of an array

24:12

and there's there's free to be born. So what he

24:14

says is from the standpoint of God's word. none of

24:16

those possible heart aches and none of those gear and

24:18

he stresses are reasons to not have children because the

24:21

bible does not share the modern viewpoint that the aim

24:23

of this life as the voice of hardship. And

24:26

on the contrary the assumption of the bible's

24:28

that through many tribulations we enter the kingdom

24:31

Max wanting to me to and that the

24:33

testing were faith produces steadfastness. Teams won three

24:35

that there's joy to be found for giving

24:37

ourselves away to the said it is more

24:39

blessed to given to receive that sex Twenty

24:42

thirty five. So. And I mean

24:44

don't think that were just saying these things,

24:46

not having our own sort of internal struggle

24:48

Cause you know here in like it is

24:50

it haven't give yourself away every day. It

24:52

pretty says steadfastness. like looking back at the

24:55

last ten years that we've had children. yeah,

24:57

were not the same people that we were.

24:59

Experience has taught us. The blessings

25:01

of our children and the hardship that they bring

25:03

or it. Every. Thread

25:07

or plus I guess. I

25:10

say this with trepidation. the the hardship is

25:12

not over. Own. I'm a blessing them

25:14

on over rain that they're not grown know. And.

25:17

It's like so when we raise them and

25:19

were cheaper raising him in the nurture now

25:21

punish them. The Lord is with trembling it

25:23

is that we say Lord Please use our

25:25

efforts person the promises we see in the

25:28

Word Caesar Museum to create fruit in this

25:30

little child. Aria him because my prayers not

25:32

on that. Not just that our kids will

25:34

follow Christ with our grandkids will Not to

25:36

me is like the proof in the pudding.

25:40

And we don't have it. so we're here

25:42

with with you. Same like lord be merciful

25:44

to us. Yeah, yeahs or efforts. in

25:47

so and he gets into saw the factors

25:49

that people will consider why don't want to

25:51

contribute to of the problems of society that

25:53

he mentions global warming i'm not sure much

25:56

of our audiences is on that so it

25:58

was signs with this idea that God

26:00

has made the path clear. And

26:02

so what struck me about this article, again,

26:04

I mentioned it earlier, at the end, he says, a lot

26:07

of the kind of heady reasons that people will

26:09

justify not having kids, they'll give you, oh, and

26:12

you get on Twitter and have a fight with, you know,

26:14

have an argument with somebody, you're going to hear all the

26:16

reasons. X, Y, and Z,

26:18

Y, I'm not going to have kids, whatever. And he said

26:20

in all of his time that he's been a pastor and

26:22

he's worked with couples, he

26:25

says, not one in a thousand of

26:27

these couples decides to not have kids

26:29

by sitting down and calculating everything.

26:32

He said, basically, it boils down to selfishness. It

26:34

does. And so that's a

26:36

heart check. Yeah, for all of us. For all of

26:38

us. Yeah. We're not trying to

26:40

wag the finger here. Right. But he, would you

26:42

want to read this last one? I do want to read that because I

26:45

feel like it really, he sums it

26:47

up. Just that biblical blessing, this is

26:49

John Piper, and that voice of nature

26:51

and that God-given longing should be followed.

26:53

I'm arguing unless God himself makes it

26:55

crystal clear that the self-denying path of

26:57

Christ exalting obedience is childlessness. So that's

26:59

that little room. That's that

27:02

teensy-tinesy, that like, and that's just, and that's

27:04

a pastor, like arguing that. That's

27:07

not. And there are for sure some that would

27:09

say Piper's off the rails on this. And

27:11

I'm sure we have some listeners on that side. I

27:15

don't claim to have the full understanding of everything

27:18

that's being argued in this issue. But

27:20

it seems to me that if there is a little bit

27:22

of room, it's very tiny and you better have

27:24

crystal clear confirmation that that's the case.

27:29

And so what do you do now? That the self-denying path,

27:31

that was one of the keywords. The self-denying

27:33

path. We talk about marriage in day in

27:35

and day out and it's always how do you

27:37

love? You love selflessly. You die to self. Ephesians

27:39

5. We are always dying to self.

27:41

We are always dying to our sinful self. And

27:44

so having kids, you better believe

27:46

it's the death of self. Like. Right.

27:49

You can look your, your Lord, your,

27:52

your spouse. You can look yourself in

27:54

the mirror face to face and say,

27:56

I, we are making this choice because

27:58

it is the righteous. thing to

28:00

do. Yeah. Knowing that it's

28:02

going to be hard knowing that we're going to

28:05

have to grow. Well, I'm talking about if you

28:07

choose childlessness, you can look God in the

28:09

face. You

28:11

can pray without, you

28:13

know, stumbling over your words. That's not the litmus

28:15

test, by the way. But what

28:17

I'm trying to say is that you can say to

28:19

God, honestly, you can have confirmation in your gut and

28:21

the Holy Spirit. Now, you have to line it up

28:24

to God's word. You've never contradict his word. So

28:26

if it's just God's voice, quote unquote, if you're

28:28

listening, scare quotes, if it's God's voice saying to

28:31

you that children for you aren't a blessing. Probably

28:35

not God's voice. Yeah, we're not. Now, point is,

28:37

this is just a

28:42

really important thing to consider with God's word in

28:44

mind. Now, if you heard all that stuff we

28:46

talked about from God's word and you can say,

28:49

nope, you've missed this, that and the other, which

28:51

God, what the Bible says, which kind

28:53

of negates the conclusions you're coming to.

28:55

I don't know that that's

28:57

there. But if you can say that, that's to me you're listening to

28:59

God's word. I don't think it's there. That's

29:01

the whole point. So if you care about what God's word

29:03

has to say, then this has to be a consideration

29:06

you're making now to Kimberly,

29:09

what do you do? So

29:11

you're still reeling. August is not that long ago. That's

29:14

when the miscarriage happened. And so, you

29:17

know, your husband could be dealing

29:19

with that. Still, it could be

29:21

that this has just been tucked back away somewhere.

29:23

And it's just easier not to deal with it.

29:26

And that means saying, I don't like the idea

29:28

of having kids. Yeah. And I've been thinking that

29:30

for a while, which honestly probably means like since

29:32

August. Yeah, I wish this hurts. I don't want

29:34

to do it again. So all I

29:37

can say is, are you on the same page with

29:39

God's word? As at one point you were in agreement

29:41

on this, communicate through

29:43

this. I hope

29:46

this has been loving enough that you would feel comfortable

29:48

sharing this episode with your husband, listening with him. Yeah.

29:50

Talk to your pastors about this. Yeah, keep talking. If

29:52

they love God, they love God's word and they loved

29:54

you, they will help you. And

29:57

so, and our prayer is that you

29:59

are blessed that the Lord blesses you

30:02

with every ounce of blessing that

30:04

He has for you unequivocally. And

30:06

we happen to think that if you

30:09

are married, there is a strong case

30:11

to be made that biblical marriage among

30:13

Christian people and even among people who

30:15

don't acknowledge this, who are not Christians,

30:18

marriage is designed for family. For

30:21

flourishing. For the fruitfulness, for the multiplication.

30:23

And yes, it does extend beyond

30:25

having children, but that's

30:27

a big part of it. And that's the place we're trying to make here. So

30:30

Selena, do you think we've put a

30:32

fork in this? Yeah, I

30:35

think we've tried. And I think that, you

30:37

know, you have to go to the word

30:39

yourself and you have to

30:41

sit through it and you have to talk

30:43

to your pastors and you have to

30:45

just do the work. If you want

30:48

to kind of get through

30:51

the situation and to find agreement, reconciliation and

30:53

to, you know, live in obedience to God's

30:55

Word. Whether or not you fall on the

30:58

side that we're on or you feel strongly

31:00

in the opposite way. If

31:02

you go and Google search that thing, you're going to get

31:04

confirmed, by the way, it's going to confirm your bias. Yes.

31:07

And so it's going to, if you really

31:09

want to know what God says about this, you

31:11

have to go to the word and God's word

31:13

is the plumb line, not our selfish desires or

31:15

whatever desires are of the day. So that's the

31:18

hard truth here. So our encouragement is just to

31:20

go to God's word and act accordingly. If you

31:23

don't know who Jesus is, you don't know what it means. All

31:25

these things that we're saying kind of sound like, wow, you're putting

31:27

a lot of weight in this book. But

31:30

I tell you what, we wouldn't have Christ. We wouldn't

31:32

know anything about Him if we didn't have God's revelation

31:34

of Him. I mean, that we don't, He revealed Himself

31:36

to us through creation. Look around,

31:38

prick your finger. Look at what comes out. That's blood.

31:41

That's a life given to you

31:43

by God who created you to operate that this

31:45

amazing creation He's given us. But He's also given

31:47

the blood of His own Son who

31:49

came and became flesh Himself. That's Jesus Christ.

31:51

He died so that we wouldn't

31:54

have to die for our own sins and said,

31:56

He made atonement for our sins and

31:58

gave us right standing before God. when

32:00

we place our faith in Him. We want you to place your faith in

32:02

Christ. And so to that end, we

32:04

recommend that you find a friend who believes in Jesus,

32:06

who follows Him, who knows the Word. Say, hey, let's

32:09

read the Bible together. Find a

32:11

pastor, a church that you can go to and

32:13

spend Sundays there and get under the teaching of

32:15

God's Word. If you have

32:18

a hard time finding either of those things,

32:20

you go to this website. It might help.

32:22

It's thenewsisgood.com. Let's pray. Father

32:24

God, thank you for your mercy. Thank you for your grace.

32:26

Thank you for the reality that you have given

32:29

children as a blessing and that as

32:31

married couples, that is something to behold,

32:33

something to be

32:36

grateful for, to be cautious with,

32:38

but also faithful with, faith

32:40

filled. What I pray for the

32:42

couples that are wrestling with this, I pray that you would help them to

32:46

see clearly. I pray that you would help them

32:48

to submit any selfish desires unto you, that

32:51

they might be made more into the likeness

32:53

of your son, whether that's through the process

32:56

of going through this, through the

32:59

blessings and difficulties and heartache of

33:01

raising children, Lord, that they

33:03

would do all that unto your glory and not

33:05

unto their own. We ask

33:07

these things humbly in Jesus' name. Amen.

33:09

Amen. Okay. Thank you

33:12

for hanging out with us for Fierce Marriage. This has been

33:14

a good episode. I think last week we talked about money.

33:17

So this was kind of a shift. Yeah. It's

33:19

good. If you haven't subscribed yet

33:21

to the YouTube channel, go ahead and do that.

33:23

That helps us a lot. By the grace of

33:25

God, we hope to continue doing these videos as

33:27

long as he allows. And so by subscribing, you

33:29

get to see those. So this episode of the

33:31

Fierce Marriage podcast is... In the can. We'll

33:34

see you again in about seven days. So

33:36

until next time... Stay fierce.