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1:03

Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts.

1:08

Three cheers for Martin. Hip hip. Hooray! Hip

1:11

hip. Hooray! Hip

1:13

hip. Hooray! And over four

1:16

years after raising concerns about patient

1:18

safety, obstetrician Martin Pittman

1:20

now finds himself for an employment

1:22

tribunal, having been sacked earlier this

1:25

year. If he loses, he

1:27

faces the end of his 30-year medical

1:29

career. But his chances

1:31

of winning are tiny. Very

1:33

few whistleblowers who start legal action

1:36

are successful in court. I'm

1:38

Brian Ely again from

1:40

BBC Sounds. I

1:42

have to be realistic. I don't know what I'm up against.

1:45

It's felt from day one that this is very much

1:47

David B. Goliath. Over the

1:49

next fortnight or so, Martin's legal team will

1:51

argue that he was badly treated because

1:54

of his whistleblowing. His NHS

1:56

employers will tell the court that it wasn't what

1:58

he said, but how he was treated. how

2:00

he stated his communication style that

2:02

forced them to take action. Martin

2:12

Pittman and I met well over a year

2:14

ago when he told me about his concerns

2:16

about maternity care at his hospital. What

2:18

I didn't know then is that he'd soon

2:21

be dismissed. On tonight's Five

2:23

on Four we will get unprecedented access

2:25

to his court case, hearing the impact

2:27

on one doctor of taking on the

2:30

NHS as he tries to solve his

2:32

disease. This

2:39

is the most extraordinary start to unemployment

2:41

I've been on. Right side this

2:44

large, quite ugly grey building

2:46

in Southampton, you can hardly

2:49

hear the rain. But standing

2:51

here are dozens of supporters

2:53

of Martin's old red

2:55

and yellow t-shirts saying we support

2:58

Martin Pittman. How do you

3:00

like Martin? Good morning. Good morning. Linda, I

3:02

just want to say hello, Michael, nice to

3:04

meet you. Michael, hello, nice to meet you.

3:07

You've got dozens of people here, why? He

3:10

is the most amazing doctor and has been my

3:12

doctor for 20 years, so to make our feelings

3:14

known that we think they've made a terrible mistake.

3:17

Martin Pittman worked in Pittman for 25

3:19

years and Martin was a

3:21

voice for all of us and we were too

3:24

scared to get up and

3:26

this demonstrates why we were right

3:28

to be scared. Martin

3:32

Pittman hopes a court win could perhaps

3:35

allow him to resume his work, but

3:37

for some medics who whistle blow, even

3:40

a legal victory does not mean

3:42

their careers continue. We're

3:46

going to go cold water swimming in a

3:48

minute. No, we are in Cuba. It's not

3:51

healthy food at all, isn't it? Yes. You

3:54

go over and over what's happened

3:56

and it just improves

3:58

your mind. The

6:00

island is a crown dependency which means

6:02

there is got its own government which

6:05

rules over the 85,000 or

6:07

so population that live here. When

6:10

it comes to the health

6:12

service it is legally separate

6:14

but it is hugely dependent

6:16

on policies, procedures and personnel

6:19

on what happens in the UK. That

6:22

reliance on the UK, particularly England,

6:24

meant ministers in the Isle of

6:26

Man's government initially decided to follow

6:29

Public Health England's advice to catch

6:31

it, bin it, kill it. Covid

6:34

was to be treated like a

6:36

winter flu with no additional enforced

6:38

restrictions. Rosalind Ranson thought

6:40

the advice was ruthless. Obviously

6:43

I knew that we needed to have essential

6:45

travel but my message was

6:47

close the borders and in fact

6:49

I received a message saying

6:52

the policy of the government is

6:55

to follow Public Health England. If

6:58

you want to change that policy then you

7:00

can do a presentation. In consultation

7:03

with clinical colleagues Dr Ranson

7:05

prepared a presentation. She

7:07

sent it to her boss Catherine Magson, the

7:09

Chief Executive of the Department of Health, for

7:12

it to be shown to the island's ministers. The

7:14

advice was clear, the borders had

7:16

to be closed. Then on

7:18

the 24th

7:22

of March I got

7:24

home and my husband said that he'd

7:26

listened to the Chief Minister's press conference.

7:29

Why would the Isle of Man not choose to enforce

7:32

a lockdown at this stage? It

7:34

really is based on the

7:36

advice from the professionals that we

7:38

get and whilst we are waiting

7:40

for that advice we are putting

7:42

in place the measures to enable us to do

7:45

it because it's not just... Well either the

7:47

Chief Minister is misleading the

7:49

public or they

7:51

didn't get the presentation.

7:55

So at 0146 in the morning and that's... At

8:00

the moment I wrote to

8:03

Miss Megson and I said,

8:06

I've heard what the Chief Minister said.

8:10

Can you tell me, did you

8:12

pass on all of these presentations,

8:14

this information? Rosalind Ranson never

8:16

did receive a direct answer to that

8:19

question. As an employment tribunal

8:21

would examine in great detail in 2022, it turned

8:23

out to be the

8:26

start of what the judges

8:28

said was a period of

8:30

hostility, marginalisation and humiliation that

8:32

the medical director would endure.

8:35

And the panel

8:37

was particularly scathing

8:40

of her boss.

8:42

Catherine Megson joined the Isle of Man's

8:44

Department of Health around the same time

8:46

as Rosalind Ranson. She was

8:48

not a clinician, her background was

8:50

in banking. She came

8:52

on secondment from her job as

8:54

chief executive of an NHS clinical

8:57

commissioning group in Hertfordshire. She

8:59

insisted that all communications for ministers

9:01

had to go through her. Dr

9:04

Ranson says that Catherine Megson's decision

9:07

not to immediately pass on the

9:09

clinical advice urging the borders to

9:11

be closed had far reaching consequences.

9:14

You quite early came to the conclusion that the

9:16

borders should be shut. Would that have made a difference

9:18

to the initial deaths on the Isle of Man? Yes,

9:21

I think almost certainly they would have

9:23

been avoidable. Because when we were

9:25

advising that we needed to shut the

9:27

borders, there was no Covid on

9:29

the island. The

9:32

Isle of Man's borders were eventually closed 11

9:35

days after Dr Ranson had sent

9:38

through her presentation. But

9:40

by that period Covid was spreading

9:42

on the island. 53-year-old Sharon Burgess

9:45

was the first patient to be admitted

9:47

to the intensive care unit where

9:49

she spent six weeks. I went

9:51

to meet her and her daughter Jamie Lee because

9:54

the consequences of catching Covid in

9:56

2020 are still ravaging her

9:58

body. Is that mummy T?

10:01

Yeah. I hope you're not playing that movie when you say mummy's

10:03

it. Oh. Pup-bussy.

10:06

Well this is Lewis and he's two. He

10:10

was Nana's promised child in

10:13

a moment of weakness. We

10:15

promised that if she woke up from

10:17

the coma We'd give

10:19

her the other grandchild that she

10:21

wanted. We don't

10:24

regret it honestly. No. It's

10:26

lovely. Yes. I remember my

10:29

mum ringing us. And saying I'm going

10:31

for a Covid test. And then it

10:33

just spiralled from there. Wow. It was

10:35

frightening. Before Covid

10:37

my mum would have done anything

10:41

for anyone. Now

10:44

she still wants to be that person but she physically can't.

10:47

Could ask you how you're doing Sharon? Yeah.

10:50

Crap. I

10:53

need help with washing and

10:55

things like that. What

10:58

do these do? And they've got enough problems of

11:01

their own without me being a

11:03

burden. I know they say I'm not a burden but

11:06

I am definitely a burden. I

11:09

don't think they feel you're a burden. No,

11:12

no but I know that I am. I

11:15

know that I am. At

11:17

one time it would have been me looking

11:20

after everybody else. And now I'm

11:22

just sat at home and

11:24

I don't do anything. Because I can't do

11:26

anything. I

11:31

would rather not have been resuscitated to be

11:33

left like this. After

11:37

the initial outbreak of Covid the

11:40

island eradicated the virus and life returned

11:42

to normal. Businesses and schools

11:44

were open. There was no social

11:46

distancing. No mask wearing. But

11:49

despite the island's success for the suppression of

11:51

the virus, Rosalind Ranson told

11:53

the tribunal that throughout 2020 she

11:55

was being cut out of major

11:58

decisions and started whisking. She

12:01

was concerned, for instance, that a

12:03

new testing procedure was unsafe and

12:05

that government modelling was misleading. On

12:08

top of the professional challenges, the

12:11

medical director said she also experienced

12:13

personal slights at the hands of

12:15

Catherine Magson, being made

12:17

to attend a non-urgent near five-hour

12:19

meeting late into the night and

12:22

even being denied at one point a

12:24

toilet break. Catherine Magson

12:26

strongly denied that she bullied Dr

12:29

Ranson. She was

12:31

trying to break me, maybe trying

12:33

to get me to lose my temper, maybe

12:36

trying to just make me

12:38

not be able to cope. It

12:40

was setting me up to look as if I was

12:43

fading. In December 2020, the Isle of

12:45

Man government got access to the global

12:47

supply of vaccines, but the

12:50

judges heard the medical director was sidelined

12:52

by Catherine Magson. A problem

12:54

arose, however. She decided that

12:56

she was going to lead the role

12:58

out of the vaccine. I

13:01

was given instructions that I was not to be a

13:03

part of that team. And

13:06

then she realised that

13:09

actually the legal

13:11

process required me to

13:13

literally sign a document.

13:16

So suddenly she demanded

13:18

that I sign the

13:20

document. There were many things,

13:23

many things that were not in place to

13:25

safely give this vaccine. So I

13:27

just refused. And she was furious

13:29

because she told the minister we were going

13:31

to be ready to go. Everybody was going

13:33

to start receiving the vaccine. Rosalind

13:36

took over preparations for the delivery of

13:38

the vaccine. But a few

13:40

days later, another problem emerged. A

13:42

guest at the island's busiest nightclub

13:45

tested positive. This was a

13:47

serious threat to the island's freedoms. But

13:49

the medical director, the most senior clinician

13:52

on the island, was excluded from dealing

13:54

with the outbreak. Instead,

13:56

Catherine Magson and another civil

13:58

servant would decide to respond.

14:01

So what was the consequence of them making

14:03

the decision rather than you and your team?

14:06

There was an outbreak because of

14:08

the treatment that I was subjected

14:10

to. And these were people with

14:13

no clinical knowledge? Yes. And

14:15

they were excluding the medical director from

14:17

having an input into these decisions? Yes.

14:21

In total 116 people

14:24

died on the Isle of Man due

14:26

to Covid and to this day Dr

14:28

Ransom believes that total could have been

14:30

lower if she'd been allowed to do

14:32

her job throughout the pandemic. What's

14:34

it like being back here? It's

14:36

very strange. Brings

14:38

back all of the memories of coming here

14:41

every day. I think

14:43

it's sad. Rosalind has agreed

14:45

to go back with us to Nobles

14:47

Hospital where all Covid patients were treated

14:49

during the pandemic and where her

14:51

office once was. So you walked

14:53

in here one day and all you confronted with?

14:56

I found that my difficult surrounding

14:58

of work was removed. My office was

15:00

taken from me. I asked where I

15:02

was going to be able to work

15:04

from and I was directed to an

15:07

office at a small office down the

15:09

corridor with broken chairs, no

15:11

computer, no telephone, nothing in it

15:14

completely empty. That wasn't all

15:16

behind her back, the tribunal heard lies

15:19

were spreading. They sent around communication

15:22

amongst themselves that you accepted,

15:24

that you were ineffective. Incompetent.

15:28

I only found this out two years later that

15:31

they had sent communications to each other

15:33

and to many people

15:36

saying that I was incompetent and

15:38

that I agreed I

15:40

was incompetent. She had

15:43

agreed to know such thing but

15:45

Catherine Magson succeeded in convincing colleagues

15:47

that Rosalind was no longer needed

15:49

and she lost her job as

15:51

medical director. Within weeks she

15:53

launched a claim for unfair dismissal against

15:55

the Isle of Man government. In

15:58

March this year the judges... I

18:00

played once last year and

18:02

when I try playing I can't

18:05

immerse myself in the music. I

18:07

still have these distracting

18:09

thoughts. It takes your back

18:11

still. Yes. Sorry,

18:20

I hope that was enough. That was fantastic. In

18:23

2022, Catherine Magson returned to the

18:25

NHS and file on Fortkin reveal

18:27

that she is now working for

18:29

one of the country's leading mental

18:31

health trusts, the South London Unmaudly.

18:34

Ms Magson said her employers were aware

18:36

of the tribunal's findings. While

18:38

she has been able to continue her

18:40

career despite the judgement back in Southampton,

18:43

Martin Pittman, who blew the whistle over

18:45

concerns of maternity care, is now fighting

18:48

for his livelihood. Well, after

18:50

several hours in the witness box, Martin

18:53

Pittman is done for the day. However,

18:55

it was to sum up how both

18:57

sides are approaching this hearing.

19:00

I'd say that one quote from Martin

19:02

stands out and said, they decided to

19:04

not investigate the whistle going but to

19:06

take out the messenger. While

19:09

the barrister for the trust accused

19:11

Martin of being a freelance agitator

19:13

stirring up dissent. So

19:18

we've just got home after the

19:21

second complete day

19:23

of cross-examination. The

19:25

days have been incredibly gruelling.

19:29

Martin has agreed to send his voice notes

19:31

recording his thoughts and fillings each day. Today

19:34

was particularly difficult and

19:38

basically opened up wounds from the

19:40

darkest period of the last four

19:43

and a half years which caused

19:45

a bit of a meltdown, really,

19:47

which I always knew could happen, but

19:50

hoped and prayed it wouldn't. The

19:53

style of questioning from the trusts, Casey

19:56

is incredibly

19:58

challenging. I

22:00

personally knew that I could go to him

22:03

with anything and I knew that

22:05

he would listen. He

22:07

would stand up in meetings and say, you know, this

22:09

is not good enough. Is

22:11

it your view that Martin

22:14

was fired because he raised

22:16

concerns? Yes. Why

22:19

do you say that? Because

22:22

I think they saw him as

22:24

a troublemaker and wanted

22:26

him out of the way. Sometimes

22:29

over a lack of staffing spilled onto

22:31

the streets of Winchester in November 2021,

22:33

the midwives protested in

22:35

the city centre. Are

22:37

you going to care

22:40

according to the city? In

22:43

the same month, the Care Quality

22:45

Commission inspected the hospital. The very

22:47

issues that CQC raised as being

22:50

hugely concerning were absolutely exactly identical

22:53

to what I'd raised nearly three years

22:55

earlier. While the CQC echoed his

22:57

concerns, Dr Pittman's employers were becoming

22:59

increasingly worried about the manner in

23:01

which he was raising them. In

23:04

the same year he raised his safety concerns, four

23:07

managers complained about his communication

23:09

style which a subsequent internal

23:11

investigation found had negatively impacted

23:13

a number of colleagues. Disciplinary

23:16

proceedings then followed which ultimately

23:18

culminated in the obstetricians' dismissal

23:20

in March. Martin felt

23:22

compelled to take legal action. So

23:26

it's a Thursday evening

23:28

and thankfully the end

23:30

of my climate across

23:32

examination, it was truly

23:35

horrific. And

23:37

the reality is no one that this

23:40

process isn't about finding fact or

23:43

establishing truth. It's basically

23:45

a battle against an

23:48

extremely skilled, experienced and

23:51

intimidating barrister whose

23:54

role it is to discredit you.

23:58

So tonight I'm feeling... probably

24:00

the most down I felt since

24:03

I started really. The highly personal

24:06

nature of the questioning is not

24:08

unusual in employment tribunals. The BMA

24:10

supported Martin Pittman in court. Here's

24:12

Philip Bunfield from the BMA Council

24:14

again. Most often the

24:17

defense from the organisation is

24:19

a character assassination of

24:22

the professional who's been trying to raise concerns

24:25

and that adds to the

24:28

fear of people starting out

24:30

on the process in the first place.

24:32

That just has to stop and

24:34

it's very all-consuming,

24:37

it ruins careers,

24:39

ruins your life and at

24:41

the end of the day actually

24:43

really no one at one. It's

24:46

become like for the last four and a

24:48

half years his complete everyday

24:51

conversation there's nothing else

24:53

he will think,

24:56

talk about. This is

24:58

Martin's wife Liz. It's just like

25:00

taken over our lives and I

25:02

also think he's become quite

25:04

angry which she didn't

25:07

used to be. Would I

25:09

want him to do it again? Yes

25:12

but I don't like what it's done to us

25:14

as a family. So

25:18

it's now Saturday morning and

25:21

what a hell of a week it was but yesterday

25:24

it genuinely felt like

25:26

the sun came out. I

25:29

genuinely feel positive for the first time

25:31

in about four and a half years

25:33

and at last I

25:36

can once again start to look

25:38

forward. actually

28:01

showed the degree of decency and

28:03

honesty and stop and

28:05

think for a second what

28:08

they are doing to me and then more

28:10

importantly what was being done to the patients.

28:14

Dr McAnavich said the niddling technique

28:16

was dangerous and breached national and

28:18

international guidelines. She said

28:21

the procedure could cause infections and

28:23

uncontrolled bleeding. Lives she feared

28:25

could be lost. The

28:50

Portsmouth Hospital's NHS thrust carried out

28:52

evaluations of the procedure and decided

28:54

it was safe. But Dr

28:56

McAnavich was unhappy and raised her

28:58

concerns with the General Medical Council

29:00

and the Care Quality Commission. Neither

29:03

stopped the procedure. Having satisfied

29:05

themselves with the technique's efficacy,

29:08

the trust launched a disciplinary

29:10

investigation into Yasna's conduct. Roughly

29:13

at the same time when the

29:15

investigation was starting, one

29:17

of my colleagues was effectively told that I

29:19

would be dismissed and that they should distance

29:21

themselves from me. And I withdrew to myself,

29:24

tried to do my best for my

29:26

patients while this time disciplinary process was

29:29

going on. Unemployment tribunals

29:31

found in Yasna's favour with the

29:33

judge finding the trust had gone

29:35

on a counter-offense of against the

29:38

doctor despite her raising genuinely held

29:40

safety concerns. At the end

29:42

of a three-year fight she was awarded £219,000 in

29:44

compensation. Dr

29:48

McAnavich's legal fees exceeded that however and

29:50

she is around £80,000 out of pocket.

29:54

But she has no regrets. I was

29:56

completely aware the time I was

29:58

looking at the abyss. But I

30:01

had no doubt then, and I still

30:03

have no doubt now, that

30:06

what I did was 100% righting to do. I

30:10

had done virtually everything possible

30:13

to get my colleagues to see some sense

30:15

and see that this was a disaster waiting

30:18

to happen. And I feel sorry and I'm

30:20

deeply distressed about the fact that I wasn't

30:23

able to correct some of the

30:25

applications. You

30:28

OK? You want a break? No, no, I'm fine. I was just getting

30:30

too sick. I'm deeply

30:32

sorry. I know

30:34

that I have tried my best. I

30:37

really don't. The Portsmouth Hospital's

30:39

NHS Trust said it had made

30:41

improvements to its whistle-blowing systems after

30:43

the tribunal judgement. Adding

30:45

together the legal fees and her

30:47

compensation, sacking Dr McAnavich cost the

30:50

Trust around £700,000. The

30:53

man who authorised the investigation, the

30:55

Trust's former medical director, Simon Holmes,

30:58

is now a senior independent director

31:00

at the Hampshire Hospital's Trust, where

31:03

Martin Pittman worked. Among

31:05

his bold responsibilities is

31:08

whistle-blowing. Campaigners

31:12

say there is little accountability for

31:15

executives who pursue disciplinary action against

31:17

doctors that later turns out to

31:19

be erroneous. Georgina Holford

31:22

Hall leads Whistleblowers UK. We

31:25

have got to get a grip of

31:27

this now, and ultimately we need an

31:29

independent office of the whistle-blowers, a body

31:32

with statutory powers and responsibilities and duties

31:34

to protect the whistle-blowers from wrongdoing, and

31:37

very importantly, holding both

31:39

wrongdoers and also organisations

31:42

to account. In

31:44

the wake of the Lucilite B scandal,

31:46

there has been renewed discussion about whether

31:49

NHS executives should be regulated. A

31:51

former NHS board member says that any

31:53

new system has to be

31:55

truly independent or it won't be effective.

31:58

He asked us not to use his name. alone to

32:00

speak more freely. It has to

32:02

be something that sits outside of the NHS because

32:06

there are too many close links

32:08

with NHS England and trusts. People

32:11

call it the merry-go-round if NHS

32:13

managers. Were you ever made aware

32:16

of somebody being brought into

32:18

your trust to sort of give them a

32:20

job to get them out of a sticky

32:22

situation that they had been in somewhere else

32:24

previously? Oh goodness yeah it's

32:26

quite commonplace people moved around like pawns

32:29

on a chessboard if you want. I've

32:31

heard people described to me first

32:34

hand that the same person has

32:36

actually been dismissed three times and

32:38

they're still in post somewhere else.

32:40

And the former executive supports the view

32:42

of many who speak up that the

32:45

NHS often doesn't want to hear their

32:47

concerns. What's so cool was

32:49

always very much frowned upon. Somebody

32:51

just trying to cause trouble, something

32:53

that was just looked upon as a real

32:56

pain. You know we don't want to have

32:58

that in the public domain. We don't want

33:00

to have our reputation damaged. There was

33:02

more emphasis placed on

33:04

things like LGBT, how

33:06

diverse the stuffing levels

33:09

were which would be

33:11

you know perceived to make the

33:13

organisation more apparent to

33:16

the outsider as being a very

33:18

sort of liberal organisation.

33:24

To my great surprise I received everyone

33:26

today and I expected

33:29

email from my solicitor which

33:31

has completely knocked me for

33:34

six. About

33:36

a month after the hearing in

33:38

Martin's case they've just been sent

33:41

the email with the judgment opening

33:44

it up now it's long it's

33:46

75 pages and just

33:48

scrolling to the bottom. I

33:52

have so much fun and

33:55

I'm really struggling

33:58

to reconcile. The

34:01

conclusion is made with the

34:03

evidence. The key

34:05

line is the last line in paragraph 382.

34:08

It is the

34:10

unanimous judgment of the tribunal

34:13

that the claimants' complaints, that's

34:15

Martin's complaints, of detriment on

34:17

the grounds of whistleblowing fail

34:20

and are dismissed. He

34:23

lost. I

34:30

want to read you one line and just get your

34:32

reflections on it. There

34:57

is an overview, an overarching reason for what

34:59

has happened to the claimant. It is the

35:01

claimant's communication style and not the message he

35:03

was trying to convey. I was

35:06

pretty aware that I would be accused of having a

35:08

lack of insight into the effect of

35:10

my communication and I accept that. What

35:14

do you want of a senior consultant? Do

35:16

you want somebody who's passive, who isn't prepared

35:18

to react when

35:20

things don't go to plan,

35:22

when patient care is suffering? Or do

35:24

you want somebody who's actually prepared to

35:27

say, actually, I don't think that's right?

35:30

Martin's former colleague who still works at

35:32

the hospital was appalled. Remember, her words

35:34

were spoken by an actor. After

35:37

he had his last court date, I met him

35:39

and I just

35:41

said, it's

35:44

terrible, I'm getting upset now because I got upset

35:46

in front of him. I

35:48

just said, I never

35:51

thought this would ever lead to

35:53

your dismissal or

35:56

the loss of your career that

35:58

I know you absolutely love. The

36:01

Hampshire Hospitals Trust say that given

36:03

Mr. Pittman multiple opportunities

36:05

to rebuild working relationships with

36:07

colleagues, that they would

36:09

never treat anyone negatively for raising concerns.

36:13

Yasna Mckanovich found a new job

36:15

at a different NHS Trust. Martin

36:18

Pittman believes he is unemployable, and

36:21

Rosalind Ranson, the Isle of Man's

36:23

former medical director, has lost the

36:25

confidence to ever work again. All

36:28

three have been severely tested by

36:31

their recent experiences. I

36:34

am extremely happy that I am practicing

36:37

medicine. I am very

36:39

progressive, supportive, environment,

36:41

you know. I consider myself

36:44

to be extraordinarily lucky to

36:46

have survived relatively

36:49

intact. If you look at other

36:52

visible ways, unfortunately, very few practice medicine, and

36:54

I think that is going to be a disaster

36:56

for me because medicine is where. You

36:59

are forever labelled as a whistleblower, so any trust

37:01

is going to look at you and think, how

37:03

can we be confident that that guy isn't going

37:05

to do the same? A lot of people, their

37:08

sense of self is wrapped up in

37:10

their job. Who is the Martin Pittman

37:12

that I'm sitting in front of? It's

37:16

a very good question. That

37:19

was a very, very painful day when it dawned on

37:21

me that I'm not the person that I was. At

37:24

the age of 16, I decided I

37:26

would be a doctor. It's

37:28

an enormously rewarding career

37:31

because you can

37:33

help people, you can really affect

37:36

people's lives, and

37:38

just to have that taken

37:41

away. This

37:45

File on Four podcast was presented by Michael

37:47

Buchanan and produced by Katie Langton. The

37:50

technical producer was Nicky Edwards and the

37:52

production coordinator was Tim Fernley. The

37:54

editor was Carl Johnston. It was a BBC long-form audio production for BBC

37:56

Sounds where you can find the best audio production in the world. The film is

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called The more radio, music

38:01

and podcasts. Hello,

38:04

I'm Kirsty Warke and this is The Reunion.

38:07

Reflecting on a shared news event, a

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cultural moment or just the experience

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of all being there at the same

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time and the same place. I

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just started doing that voice to

38:18

Armando. When he was stressed. Nervous

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breakdown, nervous. We all started sounding. It

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From the Brighton bomb to Olympic heroes. From

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with Seb Coache's to be on the last

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