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slash audio. That's

1:00

carshield.com/audio. Details

1:24

at gianteagle.com/my perks. Perks cannot

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be earned or redeemed on

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select items. Restrictions apply. Hello

1:31

everyone and welcome to Slash Film Daily. Today is Friday, April

1:33

26th, 2024. On today's episode

1:36

of the show, we're going to be

1:38

talking about Luca Guadagnino's new film, Challengers.

1:40

And we're also going to present an

1:42

interview with the movie's writer, Justin Kuritzkis.

1:44

My name is Ben Pearson. I'm an

1:46

editor at slashfilm.com. And I'm joined on

1:48

today's episode by Slash Film Editor, BJ

1:50

Colangelo. Hi, hi, hi. BJ,

1:53

what did you think about Challengers? Let's just

1:55

get right into it. General thoughts. We'll save

1:57

some spoilery stuff for a little bit. later

2:00

on. But like, broadly speaking, what do you think

2:02

about this movie? I love

2:04

sexual tension. And

2:07

this movie is dripping with it.

2:09

That is my feeling. Yeah, this

2:12

is one of my favorite movies of the year so

2:14

far. It is like incredibly, yes,

2:17

seductive and full of tension. And like,

2:19

you could slice the tension, you know,

2:21

with a knife in this movie. There

2:24

are so much that said

2:27

in this film without actually saying things.

2:29

There are so many looks between characters

2:31

that are just like loaded with meaning

2:33

and the churro

2:35

scene. I mean, we'll get to it. But like,

2:37

there are so many things in this film that

2:39

are just, yeah, very much like right

2:41

up my alley. And also very

2:44

unlike typical mainstream American movies, you

2:46

know, you don't really see films

2:48

that deal with this subject matter

2:50

in this way coming out

2:52

of America very often. And I know

2:54

Luke Guadagnino is not an American director,

2:56

but this is like a, I think

2:59

it's Amazon, MGM Studios production kind of

3:01

thing. So yeah, it's just like an

3:03

incredible achievement of filmmaking. So energetic,

3:05

the pacing was awesome. It's like, we're bouncing

3:07

back and forth in time. Like we're a

3:09

tennis ball being hit back and forth over

3:11

the net by these people. What were some

3:13

things that stood out to you that you really loved about

3:15

it? So yeah, the pacing is definitely

3:17

just so electrifying. I am somebody

3:20

who for a very long time

3:22

did not understand tennis. Like there's

3:24

no real cheering. It's like very

3:27

quiet. It feels very like it

3:29

for me, tennis falls under the

3:31

same umbrella of other like wealthy

3:33

exclusionary sports like skiing and lacrosse.

3:36

And then I watched a tennis

3:38

match. And I was just riveted

3:40

the entire time, because you can

3:42

feel the energy of a tennis

3:44

match. And I feel like this

3:46

movie does such a great job

3:48

of capturing what that sensation is

3:50

like, and making you feel

3:52

it through a film because you feel like

3:54

you're being volleyed. So when you were like, you

3:57

know, you feel like that we're a tennis ball being

3:59

thrown between these characters. that is such

4:01

an accurate way to describe it. And

4:03

it also has such

4:05

an undeniably like sexy score.

4:08

Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross are

4:10

on another level with

4:12

this score. The score is unbelievable.

4:15

It made me feel like I could lift a

4:17

school bus and hurl it into the sun. It

4:19

was just like, you know, it's so

4:22

pulse pounding and intense. And it really

4:24

just like adds this kind of hypnotic

4:26

quality to the movie that kind of

4:28

like heightens the intensity of everything that's

4:31

going on. There are scenes where the

4:35

score is playing over lines of

4:37

dialogue. And I'm paying as

4:39

much attention to the score as I am

4:41

the lines of dialogue, which is typically not

4:43

how these movies are sort of formulated,

4:45

you know, like typically music is like

4:47

under the dialogue. And like, at

4:50

certain moments, it feels like the two of

4:52

them are sort of given equal importance by

4:54

the filmmakers, which is just an interesting choice.

4:56

And then, you know, I guess, like, separate

4:58

from that the music itself is just killer. So

5:01

so it's so good. I was telling a friend who

5:04

saw it, like this score is

5:06

making sure that all of us remember

5:08

that half of this songwriting duo wrote

5:10

the song closer by Nine Inch and

5:12

Ill's, which is probably on more sex

5:14

playlists than any song in history, maybe

5:17

like, let's get it on. Like, if

5:19

it's not that it's closer. Yeah. The

5:22

one thing that I, you know, I

5:24

mentioned about the feeling like we're a tennis ball,

5:27

there's a moment where that is literalized. And that's

5:29

my one thing that I didn't really care for

5:31

in this movie. You know, you talked about how

5:33

it's sort of like dripping with tension and style

5:35

and all this. And I love the style of

5:38

this movie for the most part, but there is

5:40

one little section where it

5:42

goes into like some POV stuff. And

5:44

there's like a piece of POV of like, the

5:47

tennis players. And then I think there's a POV

5:49

of the tennis racket. And then at one point,

5:51

there's even a POV of the tennis ball that

5:54

is bouncing around between, you know, in the middle

5:56

of a match. And the camera is

5:58

just like spinning all over the place. And it's like inventive.

6:00

I haven't really seen anything like that before. But I

6:02

kind of feel like that's

6:04

for a reason because I hated the way

6:06

that that looked and made me feel it

6:09

was just like so I understand, you know,

6:11

the sort of thematic significance of

6:13

trying to put us in that position, and like

6:16

make us feel that way as an audience. But

6:18

like, I just didn't care for it. So I

6:20

don't know, did you react strongly to the POV

6:22

stuff? Thankfully, there's not really that much of it

6:24

in the movie. Yeah, it's really jarring. I

6:27

get a little seasick with these sorts of

6:29

things. But I thought that it was

6:31

a really like you said, it's a

6:33

really inventive choice. It

6:36

really does let people I

6:38

think fully understand like how intense

6:40

tennis can be. Because from a

6:43

distance, it doesn't look nearly as

6:46

exhausting or as powerful I think, then it

6:48

is. It's like watching somebody hit a golf

6:50

ball and it's like, wow, they did a

6:52

great job. But you don't understand like

6:54

what goes into being able to do

6:57

that because they make it look so

6:59

effortless. Yeah. And so honestly,

7:01

what this reminded me a lot of is

7:04

there's a show on stars that I love called

7:06

P Valley. That's about like exotic

7:08

dancers. And they do these

7:10

like POV shots of

7:13

the women on poles and like they take the

7:15

music out so that you can hear what

7:18

it sounds like for them and like how intense it is

7:20

and how it like, you know, exhausts their

7:22

body. And yeah, like the skin gripping

7:24

the pole and stuff like that. Is

7:27

that what you mean? Trying to like

7:29

get your body weight up the pole kind

7:31

of thing. And it's like, it's so incredible

7:33

to watch. And I feel like I can't

7:35

guarantee it. But I feel like someone

7:38

in the the challengers camp was

7:40

like, What if we did that?

7:42

But tennis? I

7:45

don't know if it works as well, because it

7:47

is so fast that it's a bit disorienting. But

7:49

I feel like that was the point and like, you

7:51

know, mission accomplished. You did it. So let's talk

7:53

a little bit about the the trio of actors here. We've

7:56

got Joshua Connell. This has been from the future. I just

7:58

wanted to jump in here and say that for some

8:00

reason I refer to him as Josh O'Connell, his

8:02

actual name is Josh O'Connor. So sorry about that,

8:04

I do that a couple times throughout this episode.

8:06

Apologies to Mr. O'Connor, here we go. Mike

8:09

Feist and Zendaya of course. I

8:11

was not really familiar with Josh O'Connell, very much, I'm

8:13

trying to think if I've seen him in anything. He's

8:16

in the crown. Yeah, I haven't caught

8:18

up with the crown. So like, and I feel

8:20

like he was in a couple other sort of

8:22

like more, like smaller indie kind of movies in

8:24

the past few years. La Kimera from last

8:26

year that I think is having like another run

8:28

this year, he's in and he's really, really good

8:30

in. But I feel like this is the movie

8:32

that's gonna like really put him in front

8:35

of people, which is great because he deserves

8:37

it because he's talented. Yeah, he was killer.

8:39

I really enjoyed his whole sort of like

8:41

the swagger that he brought to his character.

8:43

I thought he was great. Mike

8:46

Feist obviously the- Oh, my boy. Yeah, he burst

8:48

on the scene with West Side Story. I was

8:50

just looking at his IMDb net too long ago.

8:52

He's actually been in a bunch of stuff since

8:54

like 2015, I think

8:57

several movies that I just, you

8:59

know have never heard of like smaller films and stuff but

9:01

he obviously like 2021, whenever that was 2022 when

9:05

Spielberg put out his version of West Side Story that was when

9:07

Mike Feist like really blew up on the scene. And

9:10

he's been in like a couple things since then the

9:12

bike riders, which got delayed that's

9:14

coming out later this year. And let's

9:16

forget he was also on Broadway in

9:18

Dear Van Hansen and great, but was

9:20

smart enough to not do the movie.

9:23

Yes, of course. Yeah, he's like

9:26

a what Tony nominee or something. He's like

9:28

a big Broadway guy. He's so talented, but

9:31

I do think it's forever funny. It's like, no,

9:33

you were on Broadway playing this role and you went,

9:35

no, no, no, I'm gonna go to a Side Story

9:37

with Steven Spielberg instead. Yeah, I really enjoyed

9:40

him as well. I mean, he's like sort of like

9:42

more of the, I

9:44

guess the beta to Joshua Conner's alpha

9:46

in several ways in this movie. But

9:49

I thought he like stepped into that really well given

9:51

the sort of like grittiness of riff

9:54

in West Side Story. Like I thought

9:56

this was a very different type of

9:58

performance and he. and he acquitted himself very

10:00

well. Just on a personal note,

10:02

I was like, this guy sounds like somebody in this movie

10:04

and I can't figure out who it is. And then like,

10:07

I don't know, three quarters of the way through, I was

10:09

like, ah, John Mulaney, that's who he sounds like. So

10:11

just something about the accent work

10:13

and the speech patterns and stuff

10:15

like that. So if anybody else

10:17

happens to have my same weird

10:20

brainwave kind of thing going on out there and you're

10:22

like, ah, this dude sounds like somebody, maybe it's John

10:25

Mulaney. Anyway. All I can picture

10:27

now is John Mulaney actually being in Challengers

10:29

and how hilarious that would have been. Yeah.

10:32

So we gotta talk about Zendaya because this is

10:34

like- My girl. Yeah,

10:36

this is her first big sort

10:38

of solo, above the

10:40

title movie where she's really,

10:42

the movie is being sold on her in a

10:45

huge way. And she's not

10:47

part of like a big ensemble like Spider-Man and Dune

10:49

and stuff like that. Wow, that is Malcolm

10:51

and Marie Erasure. And guess what? It's

10:53

fine, you're erasing. Well,

10:56

yeah, theatrically anyway, I guess. Malcolm and Marie,

10:58

the very, what was that? Black and white,

11:00

like pretty small scale movie that came out

11:02

of Netflix during the pandemic. Yeah. Yeah,

11:05

I never saw that one. Did you see that movie? You

11:08

don't need to, it's okay. Okay, all right, fair enough. There's

11:11

some good ideas in there and great performances, but

11:13

woof. So what did you think

11:15

about Zendaya as this character, Tashi Duncan? Oh

11:17

my God, she's so phenomenal. I

11:20

have been watching Zendaya forever. She's

11:24

in that group of the child

11:26

star into adult star realm that

11:29

I'm always very fascinated by just

11:32

from like a cultural touch point. I

11:34

am a huge Euphoria fan. She absolutely deserved

11:37

both of the Emmys that she has gotten.

11:40

Who knows if we'll ever see a season

11:42

three, but Zendaya is just,

11:44

she's incredible in

11:46

that show. But this movie, I

11:48

think like really understands all

11:51

of her strengths as a performer

11:53

and really like lets her go

11:55

for it, which is just, oh

11:58

God, she's so, good

12:03

because like she she can

12:05

change her emotion on like

12:07

just the drop of a dime but also

12:09

she has so much like subtle

12:11

work going on in her face throughout

12:13

this movie because this is a movie

12:16

of a lot of glances for as

12:18

like sexy as this movie is it

12:20

is not gratuitous in any way it

12:22

is all an exercise in like teasing

12:25

and tension and seduction and like getting

12:27

right up next to it and not

12:30

touching it like it's that feeling for

12:32

a whole movie and she's so good

12:34

at it yeah she's great

12:36

she's so mercurial is the word that

12:38

I keep coming back to when I think about her character

12:40

like I loved how I couldn't really get a

12:43

full read on what she was doing because there

12:45

were things there were times where I was like

12:48

does she genuinely want to be doing

12:51

this thing or is this part of

12:53

like a 4d chest move where she's

12:55

manipulating these guys into you know taking

12:57

some action later on down the line that is

12:59

going to be beneficial to either them or her

13:02

or is it like a combination of

13:04

all of the above and I loved that sort of um

13:06

ambiguity of like what exactly was going on

13:09

here because these characters don't really spell out

13:11

their motivations very much in

13:13

dialogue anyway so I love

13:15

that about this movie yeah I I'm

13:17

under the impression that she's operating

13:20

like 10 steps ahead of everybody because

13:23

I want to give her that power so

13:27

yeah let's talk about the the sort of

13:29

like sexiness angle of this movie it's really

13:32

being like marketed in or you know they're

13:34

really relying on that in the marketing which

13:36

I actually am sort of encouraged by given

13:38

like the draconian

13:42

is sex necessary you know kind of conversation

13:44

that seems to be have been like popping

13:46

up over the past few years so I

13:48

was happy to see Amazon and MGM actually

13:50

like leaning into that in the marketing campaign

13:53

I think some people might be a little disappointed

13:55

when they actually see the movie that there's really

13:57

not that much sex in this film Yeah,

14:00

like actual sex, you know, but the movie

14:02

like it's in the beginning is kind of

14:04

like dripping with sex the whole way through

14:06

So it's like there's there's not a lot

14:08

of um, I don't know like explicit gratuitous

14:11

stuff in this film, but every single Scene

14:14

just feels like these characters are are

14:17

um either having like a

14:19

form of like Intellectual sex or

14:21

you know, there's like a back and

14:23

forth going on that doesn't necessarily get

14:25

represented in a physical way every single

14:28

time But I just found

14:30

that to be like really mesmerizing So what would you

14:32

make of this movies? I guess

14:34

that it's treatment of sexuality and sort of sensuality

14:36

and how it was sort of like woven into

14:38

the tapestry of the film This entire

14:41

movie is foreplay like that. That's really

14:43

what it is It's like no the

14:45

best part of sex is not coming.

14:47

It's what you do beforehand It's the

14:49

foreplay like that is what is fun.

14:52

That is what generates intimacy It

14:54

can last as short or as long as you

14:56

want it to like This is a thing that

14:58

you very much have control over and

15:01

that is how this movie operates is

15:03

that it is constantly Like edging you

15:05

because it's fun and because it feels

15:08

nice and because it's exciting and exhilarating

15:11

Because the second it happens the second

15:13

completion happens It's done and it's over

15:15

and the fun is over and that's

15:17

not fun anymore And so I really

15:20

like how this movie is doing that

15:22

because I don't I think so many

15:24

movies In this, you know, you

15:26

know like the pushback against people who are like

15:28

sex scenes aren't necessary I think a lot of

15:31

people like oh well Then the answer to that

15:33

is just like, you know filthy rock is gratuitous

15:35

sex and like absolutely there's a place for that

15:37

But I don't think that's the response to it

15:39

No, the response to it is this sort of

15:41

thing where it's like no, no, no, we're gonna

15:43

remind you Why yearning is

15:46

such a human impulse and

15:48

why like lust and like

15:51

Having all of these feelings Mean

15:53

something because I think really when people like

15:56

I don't like sex scenes I think what

15:58

they're really getting to is They

16:00

don't like things that don't feel like

16:02

they have a purpose. And like, I

16:04

have plenty of non purposeful sex. That's

16:06

fine. But it doesn't always add to

16:08

the story. Whereas in this case, like

16:10

you cannot remove the tension and the

16:13

yearning from this movie. It does not

16:15

work without it. And so I think

16:17

this is like such a great example

16:19

to be like no, no, no. Here's

16:21

why this is important and here's why

16:23

it's awesome. Yeah, it's really the foundation on

16:25

which this entire story is built. The whole

16:28

thing would absolutely not work without it. And

16:30

the filmmakers have talked a lot about how

16:32

like this is a movie about

16:34

a love triangle and how each side of

16:36

that love triangle has to touch for that

16:39

sort of foundation to remain intact, you know.

16:42

So yeah, I'd love that and like the

16:44

scene I mentioned are sort of alluded to

16:46

about the churros and stuff like these two

16:48

guys in the where wherever it is like

16:50

the Stanford cafeteria or something like just chomping

16:52

down on churros and one of them leans

16:54

over and takes a bite of the other

16:56

one. I mean, there's so much like innuendo

16:59

and sort of like suggestiveness

17:01

going on with the physicality between

17:03

these characters a lot of like thigh grabbing and

17:06

stuff like that too, you know, it's just it's

17:08

so you just don't really see

17:10

it very often in movies like this. I

17:12

love that Luca came over and was just like, let me

17:14

show you how it's done. You know, that's how I felt

17:16

like I was I was in the hands of somebody who

17:18

was like, all right, step aside. You guys want to make

17:20

a movie, you know, dripping with sexual tension. Here you go.

17:23

What kind of thing? Yeah, it's

17:25

like they really really nailed it.

17:27

And if it wasn't because Love

17:30

Lies Bleeding hits like a very

17:32

specific intersection for me and also

17:34

we're recording this on lesbian visibility day. If I

17:36

don't shout out Love Lies Bleeding, I get struck

17:38

by lightning. But if that movie

17:41

didn't exist, I feel like challengers would be my

17:43

number one of the year, but it is

17:45

very comfortably sitting at number two. And I do

17:47

think it says a lot about me that my

17:49

two favorite movies this year are also

17:51

movies that are unapologetically horny. Yes,

17:54

for sure. So I want to talk to

17:56

you about the ending of the movie. So let's get into some spoilery

17:58

stuff right now. If you've not seen this film yet. Definitely

18:00

go seek it out. Like I said, it's

18:02

one of my favorites of the year and

18:04

one of BJ's favorites It's it's really like

18:07

this is what I want from the movies,

18:09

you know films made for adults that are

18:11

original and like just exciting and opportunities for

18:13

up-and-coming actors to become full-on movie stars It's

18:16

like a collision of a bunch of things

18:18

that we care about So all right

18:20

now that everyone has paused

18:22

or whatever. Let's talk about the ending of

18:24

the movie. So this

18:26

final match between art and Patrick these

18:28

two guys and Zendaya sitting on the

18:31

sidelines and basically,

18:34

there's I Guess

18:36

one player communicates to another hey,

18:38

basically I slept with Zendaya without

18:40

actually saying it. There's a whole callback to a Racket

18:43

move. Yep. We've done earlier in the film

18:46

the racket. Yeah, exactly and so

18:48

that sort of spurs on

18:50

this final confrontation on the

18:53

court that Becomes

18:55

this electrifying I

18:58

guess it's a match point the final point of

19:00

this match that they're playing together and The

19:03

the camera intensity picks up the I think

19:05

this might be where the POV ball

19:09

Cam a type of situation comes into play. It's

19:11

like right around here Ball cam

19:14

means something very different Please

19:17

don't Google that but

19:21

Yeah, so anyway it ends with arts character

19:23

who is kind of like As

19:26

we've learned in previous conversations with Tashi He's

19:28

kind of like basically given up on being

19:30

a professional tennis player and

19:32

Tashi is not really thrilled about that And

19:34

so it ends with art basically like getting

19:36

his mojo back in a really entertaining way

19:38

and like these two guys finally like going

19:40

at it on the court in a way

19:43

that they've never done before and he art

19:45

like leaps up and Crashes down over the

19:47

net and ends up in Patrick's

19:49

arms and Zendaya

19:51

who's been watching this whole thing from horror

19:53

or with horror really on the sidelines because

19:56

she understands that like some some

19:59

unspoken thing went down between

20:01

them and like some some

20:03

damn has burst and like some information

20:05

has crossed that shouldn't have crossed you

20:07

know she initially

20:10

kind of seems she screams

20:12

come on in the very similar way to

20:15

the way that she did once when

20:17

once earlier in the movie when she's on the court playing

20:20

somebody else in tennis and then she goes

20:22

from looking kind of like horrified to kind

20:24

of like into it and then the movie

20:26

ends so I was wondering what you thought

20:28

about the ending of this movie I

20:30

think she's like like this

20:32

is what she's been looking for this

20:35

is what she has been wanting is

20:37

like you need she needs art to

20:39

go that far

20:42

like he it needs to become a relationship

20:45

like this game with your competitor

20:49

they can't be your competitor it has to be

20:51

a dance and like she got

20:53

him to that point because ultimately

20:55

she's controlling the situation like

20:57

she's the one that's been doing all this and

20:59

she knew this is how to get it

21:02

to happen this is how to get

21:04

it to work and I think that

21:06

it's very weird that as a culture

21:08

we refer to people as cucks as

21:10

like a negative thing because clearly as

21:12

challengers has shown us the the threat

21:14

of cuckoldry is a great motivator and so

21:18

I really really like this ending a

21:20

lot because to me like she's watching

21:23

what she's been what

21:26

she's been working for for a very long time

21:28

finally pay off yeah so

21:30

in that interpretation it's almost like the ending

21:32

of whiplash or something where it's like yeah

21:35

the jk Simmons character kind of like you

21:37

know putting miles teller's character

21:39

through hell basically to get this

21:41

sort of glorious final result and

21:44

I have to admit like when I first saw

21:46

this movie and walked out of the theater I

21:48

was like a little confused exactly by the ending

21:51

actually lead to or what kind of like affects

21:53

their consequences that might have on Tashi and her

21:55

relationship with them or the relationship between her and

21:57

her family like there's so many things that we have

22:00

no idea what happens right afterwards. But it's

22:02

not really about that. It's about just the

22:04

reunion of this triangle, I think that has

22:06

been like reassembled in this final moment. To

22:08

me, it felt like the relationship

22:10

between those guys was fractured.

22:12

And that last point is they're playing against each other.

22:14

It seems like something becomes reconstituted.

22:17

And it kind of seems like the ideal

22:19

form of this relationship for all three of

22:21

these people is when all points

22:23

on that triangle are actually connected. And and

22:26

then that's what happens. You know, like

22:29

for that brief moment where I think

22:31

Tashi says, in that beachside conversation

22:33

with the guys early on in the movie, there was

22:35

like real tennis happening, you know, and like that is

22:37

just as much of a turn on for her as

22:40

anything that she experiences physically with either

22:42

one of these two dingbats. So yeah,

22:45

I think what you're trying to say

22:47

is that the moral of challengers is that it's

22:50

not whether you win or lose. It's how

22:52

you play the game. I guess

22:54

that's true. Think about it when you really

22:56

break it down. I believe that's correct. It down

22:59

to its fundamentals. That is

23:01

really what it's about. That's

23:04

great. Okay, so anything else that you

23:06

wanted to highlight about your experience watching

23:08

this or anything else that jumped out

23:10

to you before we go to the

23:12

interview? I just really hope that this

23:14

year is going to usher in more

23:16

movies like this. I'm really hoping that

23:18

with the combination of poor

23:20

things, winning some Oscars, Love Lies Bleeding

23:22

being like the most viral movie so

23:25

far of 2024. And now challengers

23:28

that we're just going to usher

23:30

in a new wave

23:32

of like erotic cinema because we have

23:34

been in a drought for far

23:36

too long. And now that I have it,

23:38

I need to swim in these waters. If

23:40

you drain this, I will be very upset.

23:44

Okay, you hear that

23:46

Hollywood? That's a warning from BJ Colangelo. So

23:48

that is my warning. Do not drain the

23:50

eroticism from my cinema. God damn it. All

23:53

right, let's take a break and then we'll be right back. Do

23:56

you want a chance to go to the most

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24:57

today. Okay, so Justin Kuriskis was

24:59

watching the 2018 US

25:01

Open match between Serena Williams and

25:03

Naomi Osaka and was captivated when

25:05

Serena was penalized because her coach

25:08

on the sidelines was allegedly communicating

25:10

with her through hand signals. And

25:12

Kuriskis had never heard of that rule before

25:14

and was immediately intrigued by the idea of

25:16

a tennis match where somebody really needed to

25:18

have like a crucial personal conversation with the

25:20

person on the sidelines but wasn't able to.

25:22

And that was the spark for coming up

25:24

with this movie. So with that

25:27

as the sort of background information, here is

25:29

my conversation with Justin Kuriskis. Hey,

25:32

Justin, how are you? Hey, how are you?

25:34

I'm great. Congratulations on this movie. I

25:37

have heard you tell the story about your inspiration

25:39

for this project. So I'm not going to ask

25:41

you to talk about that again. But I am

25:43

curious about what your first steps were in

25:46

transforming that sort of

25:48

amorphous kernel of an

25:50

idea into an actual story. Well,

25:56

honestly, my first steps were

25:58

writing the first scene. the

26:00

first scene of the movie because a lot

26:03

of the desire to write the movie in

26:05

the first place came from this feeling I

26:07

had as a tennis fan, which was that

26:10

tennis was becoming the only thing that was occupying

26:12

my attention in a real way. You know,

26:14

it was like the best thing I was

26:17

watching was better than movies, better than TV. And

26:20

so I started to ask myself, what

26:22

would make tennis even better? And

26:24

for me, the answer to that question was if

26:27

I could know what was at stake on this

26:29

microscopic level for each of the players at every

26:31

moment in the match. And

26:34

so I always kind of knew that I wanted

26:36

to drop the audience right into the middle of

26:38

a tennis match in this ostensibly

26:42

low stakes environment and

26:45

then figure out gradually, why

26:47

are all these people looking at each other like

26:49

this matters more than a grand slam? So

26:52

that all sort of came with the desire to write

26:54

the movie in the first place. And

26:56

then it really became a question for me of filling

26:58

in the gaps that I didn't know

27:00

as I went along. So

27:02

I was a fun way to approach a project.

27:05

Yeah, it was because there was a sort of it

27:08

sort of presented itself to me as this geometry

27:10

of these three people on

27:13

or around this tennis court. And

27:15

then it was really a question of figuring

27:18

out where I needed to jump back

27:20

to to understand why this mattered so

27:22

much. Yeah, that's great. I read

27:24

that Luca asked you to write the scene with

27:26

Tashi and the boys in the hotel room where

27:29

Patrick and Art end up making out. What was

27:31

that conversation like between you and Luca? Well,

27:34

it wasn't quite as direct as that. It was

27:36

that, you know, I had

27:38

written this script on spec and it

27:42

was, you know, got into the hands

27:44

of Amy Pascal and then Zendaya and

27:46

then Luca. And Luca and

27:48

I met in we

27:50

met on the phone and then a week later I flew

27:53

to Milan to hang out with him and, you know, figure

27:55

out if we could work together and figure out if this

27:57

was a thing that this was a collaboration

27:59

that made. And

28:01

one of the first conversations we had was that

28:03

Luca said, in

28:05

a love triangle, all the corners should touch. And

28:09

I heard that, and I

28:11

thought, yeah, you know, all these people's lives

28:13

are so deeply entwined, and there's all this

28:15

desire flowing between all three of them, they're

28:18

touching. And it quickly

28:21

became clear that Luca meant, no, no, literally,

28:23

they literally should all touch. And

28:26

so I was thrilled by that idea, and

28:28

the question then became how to make that

28:30

happen in a way that

28:32

felt earned and organic, and

28:35

that deepened

28:37

the dynamics and the story that was

28:39

already there and was already happening between

28:41

the characters, and didn't shift everything too

28:44

radically so that we lost

28:46

the structure, you know, the movie or

28:49

what happened in the movie, because we felt really good

28:51

about that. So the question became

28:53

where to place it and how to give it the proper runway

28:56

so that it felt like it was always there, you know.

28:59

And that was something that came

29:01

about through a lot of conversations with

29:03

me and Luca, and me trying things and us

29:06

talking about it. And then finally

29:08

the thing I arrived on, which

29:11

was having it happen

29:13

when they're juniors in that

29:16

hotel room, that

29:19

became something that instantly felt

29:21

right to all of us. And

29:25

now it's one of my favorite scenes in the movie. I

29:27

was wondering, I think I read that you were

29:30

on set a lot for this movie, if not

29:32

every day, a ton. I was curious how else

29:34

the story changed over time. Did you have to

29:36

write stuff on the fly, or

29:38

what was that experience like for you? Well,

29:42

yeah, I mean, it's a real testament to Luca's

29:44

generosity and foresight as a

29:47

collaborator, that he wanted me in

29:49

pre-production and on set the whole

29:51

time. Which

29:53

is not the norm necessarily for a

29:55

screenwriter. I mean, it

29:57

was my first script, so I had nothing to do with it.

30:00

to compare it to, but I quickly

30:02

learned that that was not really what,

30:04

that's not an expectation you can have. And

30:08

it was a mixture of things. I mean, there was, we had

30:10

this really luxurious

30:13

six week rehearsal process,

30:16

where we were going through the scenes every

30:18

day with the actors and with Luca and

30:20

the producers there. And so a

30:23

lot of stuff was getting refined in

30:25

that and through that and becoming

30:29

more in the actors' voices and in

30:31

their bodies and more lived in by

30:34

them. And then

30:36

there was occasional stuff that was

30:38

reworked on set because,

30:42

either because of very practical constraints or

30:45

because of the way a line was sitting in an actor's

30:47

voice or any

30:49

of the kind of stuff that happens on any

30:51

film ever made.

30:54

But there were, you know,

30:58

trying to think of, well,

31:00

there was a really interesting insight

31:02

that Zendaya had when we were in

31:05

rehearsals that changed the movie

31:07

in a small, but I think significant way, which

31:09

is that originally I had written that Tashi

31:12

and Art are traveling with a

31:15

nanny for their

31:17

daughter. And Zendaya said, I

31:19

don't think they would have a nanny. I think she would

31:21

have her family member there. She'd have her mom. And

31:24

so that immediately made sense to all

31:26

of us. And so Tashi's

31:28

mom became a character in the movie, you know,

31:31

who's traveling with them. And then it allows

31:34

Patrick to say things like, your mom looks

31:36

good and for Tashi to say, I know

31:38

she does, you know. So that that sort

31:40

of stuff was happening, which

31:43

is a really amazing part of the

31:45

collaboration that happens when you make a movie. That's

31:48

wonderful. Was the ending always

31:50

in place? Was it always what you

31:52

envisioned for when you first, I

31:54

guess, when you when you wrote your first draft? Yeah,

31:58

I mean, I think. This

32:01

will be presented with spoiler alerts or

32:03

something? Okay, cool. Yeah,

32:05

just because I'm very careful

32:08

about protecting that experience for the audience.

32:12

I would say the last 10 minutes

32:14

of the movie are pretty close to what

32:16

I had always imagined. There was some sort

32:19

of calibration of exactly

32:21

how the last point would

32:23

end. But

32:25

I always knew that the movie would end without

32:30

us knowing who won, quote unquote,

32:32

the match. And I always knew

32:34

that it would end with Tashi leaping

32:36

to her feet and screaming, come on. You

32:40

know, I always kind of knew that this movie was

32:42

going to end on her face screaming.

32:46

So, yeah, but how exactly the point

32:49

leads to that was something that we

32:51

worked out a lot. But

32:54

I would say that the spirit of the

32:56

ending has pretty much remained consistent

33:00

throughout the whole development of this movie. I

33:03

suspect people are going to have their

33:05

own readings and sort of interpretations on

33:07

Tashi's reaction there at the end. And

33:09

I was wondering if you felt comfortable

33:11

sharing your own interpretation of that

33:14

scream and her response on the

33:16

sidelines in the closing seconds. No,

33:19

I think that should be for people to

33:21

have. You know, I think that's part of the

33:23

fun of engaging with a

33:26

movie is that you get to think

33:28

about something like that or talk about

33:30

it. So I wouldn't want to

33:33

speak from any place of authority about that. Totally

33:36

fair. There's so

33:38

much in this movie that is said

33:40

without words. And I was curious from

33:42

a writing perspective how you go about

33:44

conveying the intention and the meaning of

33:46

those moments on the page without having

33:48

dialogue to sort of fall back on

33:50

in that way. Well,

33:53

a lot of that had to be in the

33:55

screenplay because when you write something on spec, you're

33:57

trying to make somebody see the movie on the

33:59

page. So you're really not trying

34:01

to describe the

34:03

movie or feel like you've given

34:05

someone an outline for the movie. You're trying to make them feel

34:07

like they've watched it. So it

34:10

was important that a lot of that

34:12

stuff be presented as a conversation

34:15

that people were having through tennis

34:17

on a tennis court and through

34:19

gestures and through glances and action.

34:23

So there

34:25

was a sort

34:28

of...you try to give

34:30

enough information so that it's

34:33

very clear what's happening between

34:36

the characters, but not so much information that

34:38

you're very micromanaging

34:42

a performance. Right. Yeah,

34:44

that was going to be my next question because

34:46

it seems like you would have to have something

34:49

in the stage direction so people understand what the

34:51

intentionality is, but you don't really want to box

34:53

your actors into a corner with having to look

34:55

at things through a very narrow

34:57

lens. Well, you want

34:59

to trust that they're emotionally

35:03

intelligent enough to read

35:06

what's there and understand what's happening, to

35:08

give them enough so that they

35:12

can inhabit it themselves. And

35:15

with these actors, that was never a problem. So

35:19

yeah, it's a bit of a

35:22

delicate calibration you're doing there, but it's

35:24

about just trusting that the people

35:27

you're going to make the movie with

35:29

are really

35:31

smart and good at what they do.

35:36

I think in terms of the way

35:38

that the conversations without language were

35:40

happening, something I found useful that

35:43

found its way into the script that

35:48

I would gesture at every once in a while,

35:50

but certainly helped me think about the movie was

35:52

I realized at a certain

35:54

point that there was some relationship

35:56

that the way I was thinking about tennis

35:58

had to to Getty Western for

36:01

a movie about duels. I

36:03

think I even wrote at some point in the

36:05

script, it's a Mexican standoff. They're

36:08

all looking at each other and it's like a

36:10

Mexican standoff. So there was stuff

36:12

like that that I found useful in terms of

36:15

locating tennis within a language of

36:17

film that everybody had access to.

36:20

Yeah, that's really cool. There are a

36:22

couple sports that I think about like

36:24

this, like, I don't

36:26

know, I guess golf might be one, but tennis

36:28

in particular is so isolating, you know, like, unless

36:30

you're playing doubles, it's just you out there and

36:32

like mental game just as much as it is

36:34

a physical one. So sort of piggybacking off of

36:36

that a little bit, there's like a, there's

36:39

a recipe for high drama there, but

36:41

it's also tough to translate exactly what those

36:43

characters may be thinking during a match. And

36:46

so you chose not to rely on

36:48

a voiceover narration. And

36:50

I was wondering if you ever played around with

36:53

that as an option in the early days of

36:55

writing a script. No,

36:57

because it, the desire

36:59

to write the thing in the first place

37:01

came from this desire to watch people have

37:03

a conversation without language. So

37:06

it never really, I never

37:08

wanted to have anything

37:11

but gesture and action

37:13

and perspective dictate meaning. Because

37:17

that- The studio never came in and said like,

37:19

hey, you know, it might be helpful if we

37:21

got a little bit more clarity on what's going

37:23

on here. I mean, I'm glad they didn't, but

37:25

did that conversation- Never about

37:27

voiceover, I'll say that. One

37:34

of my favorite things about this movie that I wanted

37:36

to talk to you about for a second is that

37:38

how it kept me guessing about Tashi's motivations. And it

37:40

seems clear from the start that she can really manipulate

37:43

these guys and basically

37:45

any way that she wants. And I

37:47

loved how there was some murkiness kind

37:50

of about whether or not she's like

37:52

a pure mercenary or if she's actually

37:54

getting caught up in the emotion

37:56

of certain moments or maybe this combination of both.

37:58

So can you tell me about Stripe? that

38:00

balance with the Tashi character? Well,

38:03

it was important to me for all the characters

38:05

that, you know, on

38:07

the surface of it, this movie includes

38:09

many instances of people being selfish

38:12

or petty or cruel to each other or

38:15

playing games with each other. But

38:17

I think it's important that

38:21

any time they're doing that, they're also

38:23

being kind. They're also trying to

38:25

take care of each other in their own fucked up

38:27

way, you know, that there is

38:30

a really deep care that these people have

38:32

for each other because they're

38:34

all, they all recognize that

38:39

they're in this deep relationship with each other, you

38:41

know, that they can't get away from each other.

38:44

And so with Tashi specifically, I think

38:47

every time she does something in

38:49

the movie that could be read

38:51

as cruel or manipulative or could

38:53

be read as her playing a sort

38:55

of game, I do think

38:57

it's always also coming from a

38:59

place of her trying to get not just what

39:02

she needs, but

39:04

what she thinks these other two people need,

39:07

too, you know, and to take care

39:09

of them in

39:11

a way that she feels resentful for having to take care

39:13

of them, you know. But

39:16

she's not shirking her responsibility. She

39:20

takes her responsibility to take care of them

39:22

very seriously. But that's coupled

39:25

with a deep resentment for being in that situation

39:27

in the first place. But

39:29

also an acknowledgement that she's not an innocent

39:32

in that either, you know, that she's, she

39:36

has entered into this dynamic somewhat

39:38

willingly. So

39:41

yeah, I think it's never the case in

39:44

this movie that somebody is doing something for

39:46

just one reason or

39:48

for just a, yeah,

39:51

for just a dark reason, because

39:55

I don't think that's how people operate in life,

39:57

you know, just like I don't think in life people

39:59

ever do things for just a purely

40:01

good reason. There's always a

40:03

lot determining our action. Can

40:08

you talk to me about coming

40:10

up with the art and Patrick

40:13

characters? Like when you were first

40:15

envisioning this triangle, did you

40:17

think of those guys almost as not necessarily

40:21

mirror images of one another, but in different

40:23

personality types? And like what kind of evolution

40:26

did each of those guys go through in

40:28

your mind as you were sort of committing

40:30

to this final version of them? Well,

40:33

I thought about them as two guys who

40:36

had grown up together in

40:38

this really deep intense way because

40:40

they're both kind of orphans. You

40:42

know, they come from these well-to-do families

40:45

who have shunted them off to a

40:47

tennis boarding school to be raised by

40:49

coaches and raised by, you know, administrators

40:52

on a tennis court. And

40:54

so they've grown up together in

40:57

locker rooms and in

40:59

dorm rooms and on the court. They've gone

41:01

through puberty together. They've had crushes on the

41:03

same girls. They've gone through all of the

41:05

things that boys, you

41:08

know, go through when they're growing up and they've done

41:10

it with each other. So I

41:12

think they are

41:15

so deep in each other's emotional

41:22

and professional lives that

41:24

it's inevitable that they sort of feel

41:27

like mirrors of each other. Yeah.

41:31

And I think they're both also drawn

41:33

to each other because they recognize that

41:36

the other one has in his game and

41:38

in his life the thing that his

41:40

friend is missing. Yeah. And vice

41:43

versa, you know. So

41:46

I think when you meet somebody like that, you're

41:50

inevitably sort of drawn to them because

41:52

you recognize that there's something that

41:54

makes them different from

41:57

you in a sort of way. sort

42:00

of exact way. This

42:03

sauna scene is so, was

42:05

so powerful to me, just like the, it really

42:07

feels like a culmination of everything that,

42:09

you know, that they've been experiencing together and

42:12

how their whole relationship has been building to

42:14

this moment. And then obviously the

42:17

final point is like an ecstasy of its

42:19

own kind. But that sauna scene really does

42:21

feel like this wonderful prelude to the final

42:24

confrontation, I guess, in this moment. Was that

42:26

a scene that sort of flowed out of

42:28

you quickly? Like tell me about your approach

42:30

to that scene in particular. Yeah,

42:34

that one did actually. I mean, I, it's

42:38

always fun to write scenes where

42:41

people are trying to say

42:44

what they mean to each other, you know, where they're

42:46

trying to put their, put it all

42:48

out on the table. So

42:52

that scene was a joy to write, actually. It

42:55

took some time to find the

42:58

language of it exactly. But

43:04

yeah, that wasn't one that I had to

43:06

agonize over very much. I'm

43:08

wondering about, because you were

43:10

on set and collaborated

43:12

so closely with Luca, did

43:15

you know that the

43:18

way that he was going to film some of

43:20

these tennis scenes where the ball is flying directly

43:22

at the camera, was that something that was like

43:24

in the, in your script or is that a

43:26

flourish that he added later on? Like, did you

43:28

guys have any conversations about like the sort of

43:31

energetic way that the tennis was actually going to be filmed

43:33

in this? Well,

43:35

I mean, so

43:37

much of that is just the invention and

43:40

mastery of, or he wouldn't go for the

43:42

drop volley, you know, and we have this

43:44

real intense conversation about what

43:46

the tennis in each moment should

43:48

be so that it looked authentic

43:50

and felt dynamic and real. And

43:53

then we had this beat sheet of tennis

43:56

points and we brought that to real tennis

43:58

players, real pro or something. semi-pro

44:00

tennis players, and we

44:02

had them play through all the points on

44:04

courts in Boston, where

44:06

Luca and me and the DP and

44:08

the assistant director went around and Luca

44:11

shotlisted with his team. And

44:13

Luca would ask me questions and ask Brad questions

44:15

and, you know, he would have his own thoughts. And

44:17

then we really got to,

44:21

we really got to have a very firm idea of what

44:23

we were going to do on the tennis court before we

44:25

got there. So that when

44:27

we were there, Luca had these

44:30

massive, what do you call them, poster

44:32

boards with all of the shots laid out. And

44:34

we would know exactly what we were going to

44:36

shoot that day. Wow, that

44:38

is like an unbelievable level of work

44:40

that like, you know, you don't feel

44:43

that when you're watching the movie, but

44:45

thinking about just doing all of

44:47

that work for every single shot that's hit in

44:49

the film is unbelievable. Like, well,

44:52

it's it is, but it's also I mean, you know,

44:55

I don't I don't think I don't

44:59

think most directors would

45:01

be so

45:03

bold or so brave to shoot tennis in

45:05

the way that Luca shot it. But I

45:07

think something that I certainly felt as we

45:09

were in preproduction and something that I think

45:12

influenced the way it happened is that we

45:15

thought about tennis as fight choreography.

45:18

You know, these are action sequences, and

45:21

they should be as dynamic and exciting

45:23

as, you know, anything that Jackie Chan

45:25

has ever done. That's kind of how

45:28

it should feel. And

45:31

there's a real there was a real opportunity

45:33

to treat tennis that way, you know, and

45:36

Luca really took that opportunity

45:39

and, you know, went in a rocket ship

45:41

with it. Yeah, that's amazing. I

45:44

was wondering if there was something that you

45:46

could sort of pinpoint as like your biggest hurdle

45:48

in writing this script. Was there a scene or

45:50

a line or something that you got hung up

45:52

on for a long time and then ultimately figured

45:54

out how to tackle it? Probably

46:01

the most labor intensive thing was

46:03

making sure that what was happening

46:05

in the tennis match was. Matching

46:08

what was happening emotionally, You.

46:11

Know and making sure that the.

46:14

That. That. That

46:17

the progression of the match

46:19

was dynamic. And. Also

46:22

felt. Real. And

46:24

felt like tennis. Felt like a. You.

46:26

Know felt as dynamic as a real tennis

46:29

match can feel. So. That that. That

46:31

was a lot of. That.

46:34

Was probably the part of the writing that

46:36

felt the slowest. You. Know was

46:38

working through that. Ah,

46:42

But. The you know, the other

46:44

thing. that sort of. Really?

46:47

Important in any. Story.

46:49

That's about a triangle or any any story

46:51

that's about a. Dynamic. Between

46:53

three people. Is. Making

46:56

sure that. You.

46:59

Keep track of where all of they all of them

47:01

are. In. The. In.

47:04

The Field. you know? That

47:06

you. Yeah. That you don't lose track

47:09

of any of them. And that. whenever.

47:11

Somebody seems to be receding into

47:13

the background. They come back with

47:15

a vengeance, you know, and they

47:17

reassert themselves. So.

47:20

That was, I wouldn't put pull out a hurdle, but that

47:22

was certainly something I was thinking about a lot as I

47:24

was writing it. Yeah. And is the

47:26

one last I guess like production level thing

47:28

they want to talk to about was the

47:31

i'm like a windstorm the night before the

47:33

final match. Is that something where you're riding

47:35

on the page and then you realize that

47:37

oh crap people actually have to translate this

47:39

into into like a physical representation on camera

47:42

like to do. I go too far for

47:44

years. too difficult for people to do like

47:46

what was your out, what kind of conversations

47:48

that you have with Luca about like the

47:50

practicality about. Well. Look.

47:54

I never shies away from that. sort of

47:56

a challenge. If anything, he will kind of

47:58

wants more of them and. know. But

48:01

it was certainly something that was

48:05

a revelation to

48:07

me in the process of, you know,

48:09

this being my first script and something that I wrote

48:12

on spec really just for me that

48:14

was meant to be a meaningful reading

48:17

experience for people. All

48:19

of a sudden when a script is getting

48:22

produced, it goes from being

48:24

a literary document to now being a very

48:27

practical document that hundreds of people

48:29

across many different departments are going

48:31

to use to do their jobs every day.

48:34

You know, so I remember feeling

48:39

the weight of that when I was

48:41

on set and I realized that every

48:44

day everybody's given two things, which are

48:46

the call sheet and the sides. And

48:49

the sides are literally the pages that you're going

48:51

to do that day. And that

48:53

is often the only thing that people

48:56

across all these different departments are using to

48:58

know how they're going

49:00

to like something, how they're

49:02

going to address people, you

49:04

know, what kind of equipment

49:07

we need, all of that. So

49:10

it's very hard once you see that, once

49:12

you see all the machinery and all the

49:14

moving parts of a film production to forget

49:16

about that when

49:18

you're going and writing something else. It's really

49:22

hard to get back to

49:24

a place of innocence where you can't see

49:26

those trucks unloading gear. But

49:29

you know, I think something that was something

49:32

that I found really inspiring about all of

49:34

that, because I remember we would

49:37

do, sometimes we would rehearse the scene as they

49:39

were setting up the equipment, you know,

49:41

as they're setting up the lighting, as they're setting up the camera,

49:43

all of that. And you could see all

49:45

of these different professionals at the top of their

49:47

fields who have these really

49:49

intense skilled

49:52

jobs, you know,

49:54

that They've built up

49:57

experience over years or decades in the

49:59

industry. And they would be listening

50:01

to our rehearsal. And I

50:03

remember feeling like there's so many things

50:05

that can go wrong. On.

50:08

This said, there's so many practical

50:10

things that can prevent us from

50:12

making the day. And it's

50:14

not going to be me. Who.

50:16

Does All I have to do is come up

50:18

with things for people to do and for people

50:21

to say. And so if you know if that's

50:23

all I have to do, I don't have to

50:25

deal with any wonky equipment, I don't have to

50:27

deal with the elements, you know, Ah,

50:29

I have to respond to those things. But.

50:32

I don't have to make them happen. Yeah.

50:34

So. So. I found

50:37

it, I found that very inspiring and energizing,

50:39

and I felt the deep responsibility to all

50:41

of those people when I was on. Out

50:45

When I was preparing for every I read

50:47

that you're married to saline songs with amazing

50:49

time flies of my favorite film of last

50:51

year's oh Incredible, I realized how cool it

50:53

would have been to potentially see you both

50:55

out on the award circuit and same year

50:57

for different movies last year around as one

50:59

eight What it was like from your perspective

51:01

just watching Saline experience that whole whirlwind last

51:03

year. I. Was the

51:05

most incredible thing in the world. I. Mean.

51:08

I love her movie and then.

51:11

I'm incredibly proud of her just as

51:13

a partner, And you know I. Have

51:16

known that she's this brilliant artist for

51:18

the whole time. I've known her. so

51:20

to see other people on this massive

51:22

scale recognize that was. More

51:25

gratifying than I can explain. Am.

51:28

And I got to go around with her

51:30

to a lot of these things and and

51:33

watch her navigated all with this amazing level

51:35

of grace and them. And.

51:37

Yeah, so it was. It was a it

51:39

was a spectacular thing to be a part

51:42

of a circle. ah John Wick are character

51:44

in the movies loosely based on you. must

51:46

have been pretty surreal to watch that the

51:48

home playoff from your perspective. Well.

51:51

John Mcgraw is one of the best

51:53

actors working. Today. I

51:55

really, really love him and love that

51:57

performance. I think in terms of any.

52:00

anybody confusing me with the character,

52:02

I think

52:05

it only can sort of

52:07

break the spell of that

52:09

movie or pollute the

52:11

work that Celine and John

52:13

and all of her actors did

52:16

for anybody to sort of make

52:18

too much of a slippage between

52:20

me and a fictional character. But

52:26

I love his performance and I love that

52:28

character. Yeah, terrific. I've not yet read Don

52:30

Winslow's City on Fire, but I know that

52:32

you're working on a movie adaptation of that

52:34

and Austin Butler is lined up to star

52:36

in that, which is pretty amazing. What can

52:38

you tell me about your take on that

52:40

project? I can't tell

52:42

you much because it's very

52:44

early days, but I am very

52:47

excited. I love the book. I'm

52:51

really excited about Austin. On

52:53

one level, it seems so different

52:55

than Challenger sort of on

52:58

the page, but Challenger also has this

53:00

really amazing like thriller aspect to it.

53:02

And so maybe it's not

53:04

as different as I would think

53:06

from a writing perspective. I mean, I know you

53:08

can't go into detail, but just maybe, I don't

53:10

know. I mean, I think Challenger, I've

53:13

been asked a lot of what genre I

53:15

would describe it as. And the closest thing

53:17

that I've heard, it's not my

53:19

phrase, but I've heard somebody describe it this way

53:21

and it felt real, which is that it's an

53:24

erotic tennis thriller. And

53:26

I like that because I don't know what

53:29

that movie looks like, you know, but

53:31

I think it looks like Challenger. Yeah,

53:34

for sure. I think I probably have time for

53:36

one more question with you. And the

53:38

score for this is unbelievable Trent

53:40

and Atticus. What they did with

53:42

it is just kind of mind-blowing

53:44

and it changes the

53:46

movie in so many ways. Like I

53:48

was wondering from the guy who

53:51

originated this who came up with this concept,

53:53

sitting in your room, typing on a computer

53:55

to have That be added over the

53:57

top of the words that you wrote.

54:00

The argument and everything it was the together.

54:02

What was that experience like for you? Just

54:04

like sitting area hearing that score over this

54:06

movie for the first time. While.

54:09

I mean, I've been such a massive

54:11

fan of Printed Atticus and their work

54:13

in film for ever. But I've also

54:15

been a massive Nine Inch Nails fan

54:18

forever. So. The idea that. They.

54:20

Had even read the script. was exciting

54:22

to me. You know, Lucas obviously work

54:25

with them before and they have a

54:27

deep relationship together. So.

54:30

I was very. Grateful to

54:32

be able to. Have.

54:34

My work be a part of

54:36

that collaboration. You. Know I'm.

54:39

I think. The. The.

54:42

Thing that was most exciting to

54:44

me beyond the score which is

54:46

incredible and is you know rightfully

54:48

being praised and is like. A

54:51

I think. It

54:53

serves the movie so completely dutifully.

54:57

I was so excited by the song at

54:59

the end of the movie. That's

55:02

an original song that Luca wrote

55:04

the lyrics for. You know that's.

55:07

Inspired. By this movie that to

55:09

me was that. Kind. Of

55:11

surreal moment Yeah that these people whose

55:13

music is med so much to me

55:15

and this guy. those movies have meant

55:18

so much to me and they made

55:20

something together that the. That.

55:22

Is that wouldn't have happened without

55:24

Challengers? It's It's pretty incredible. Yeah.

55:27

Smith Perfect World doesn't take you so much free

55:29

time today to regulations a movie. I really really

55:31

love that. Thank. You. That really

55:33

means the world to me. Thank you so much thought

55:35

Daycare. Is. Eric.

55:37

That's gonna do it for today's episode of the

55:39

show. Can find much more about Challengers at/film.com Apple

55:41

links to few things from the show notes including

55:44

our review as well/on deal is published every weekday

55:46

bringing the most exciting news from the world of

55:48

movies and Tv as well as deeper dive into

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the great features you can find on the site.

55:53

You can subscribe to the show on Apple overcast

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spot if I were gay. Five Cats send your

55:57

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56:00

Be Pearson a flash well.com They should leave your

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56:14

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