0:01

I think it's easy to try to kind

0:03

of beat these voices down and think we

0:05

need to be absolutely fearless to achieve anything

0:07

or do anything that's hard. You don't need

0:09

to be fearless at all. You

0:11

just need to not let fear be

0:13

the one steering your ship. Welcome

0:25

back or welcome to the Finding Mastery

0:27

podcast. I am your host, Dr. Michael

0:29

Gervais. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais. I am

0:31

your host, Dr. Michael Gervais. Dr.

0:34

Michael Gervais is a professional anchor.

0:55

It's a gateway to mastering fear,

0:57

to discovering your potential. This is the

1:18

world of highlining, and Faith

1:20

Dickey is a pioneer and

1:22

a legend in this incredible sport. Now,

1:26

Faith isn't just a highliner, of course.

1:28

Nobody can be defined by what they do.

1:31

She's a symbol of resilience

1:34

and mental fortitude. Since

1:36

2008, she's been redefining

1:38

what's possible in a

1:40

sport that demands extreme

1:42

focus and demands courage.

1:45

She's one of the few women to

1:47

excel in highlighting and has set multiple

1:50

world records and achieved a series of

1:52

groundbreaking firsts. For example,

1:55

she was the first woman to free

1:57

solo a highline. Yep,

2:00

I said that correctly. Free solo I high-line.

2:02

So let's just pause a minute here and

2:04

think about what it means to free solo

2:07

in this way. She's walking on

2:09

a webbing an inch wide, 3,000 feet off the

2:11

ground, and

2:14

she's doing it without a leash or a

2:16

safety harness. How

2:18

about it? In our conversation, Faith

2:21

takes us deep into the mental

2:23

landscape of high-lining. She shares how

2:25

she navigates the delicate balance between

2:28

fear and intuition, and

2:30

how her experiences high above the

2:32

ground have shaped her approach to

2:34

life's challenges. Her strategies

2:36

for managing fear from

2:39

breath work to self-talk are lessons

2:41

in resilience and self-awareness. And I

2:43

think you're going to be intrigued

2:45

by how you can apply these

2:47

high-lining takeaways in your own life.

2:50

So whether you're directly facing your own metaphorical

2:52

high-line or a free solo in

2:54

your life, or simply

2:56

curious about what it takes to

2:58

manage fear just a bit more

3:00

effectively, Faith's experiences

3:02

offer valuable lessons in

3:04

courage and commitment and the power

3:07

of the human spirit. So with

3:09

that, let's jump right

3:11

into this extraordinary conversation with

3:13

Faith Dickey. Faith,

3:16

I am so excited to sit down with

3:18

you. But let's start at kind of home

3:20

base. How are you? I'm

3:22

doing pretty good. I'm pretty tired. I'm currently

3:25

renovating a house that we just purchased. So I've

3:27

been doing that for the last seven days straight.

3:31

But I'm great. I'm excited and happy

3:33

to be here. Awesome. So

3:36

I just want to start by

3:38

having you paint the picture of

3:40

high-lining for our community. So

3:43

we want to just help set the scene for

3:46

people listening. Maybe give us a

3:48

quick explanation of what high-lining is, and

3:51

then maybe transition and bringing them into

3:53

the way it feels for you to

3:55

be up there, and then maybe even

3:58

getting into... your

4:00

record setting free solo. And

4:02

so can we just start, highline

4:04

what it's like for you, and

4:06

then move into free solo? Definitely.

4:09

Highlining is a balance sport. It looks very similar

4:12

to tightrope walking for those who don't know what

4:14

it is. The difference

4:16

is that a tightrope is a steel

4:18

cable that's completely taut, and a tightrope

4:20

walker uses a pole, whereas a highliner

4:22

is actually walking on a flat woven

4:24

rope that's stretchy and sways and bends,

4:26

and it's not quite as taut as

4:28

a tightrope. And we don't use a

4:30

pole to balance. We just use our

4:32

arms and our body to maintain equilibrium.

4:35

And highlining really originated in

4:37

Yosemite Valley, California in the 70s and

4:39

early 80s. Climbers on

4:41

rest days took some of their climbing webbing

4:43

and stretch it between two trees and started

4:46

balancing on it. And they decided

4:48

it was super cool. And they're like, what if

4:50

we do it super high off the ground? And

4:52

that was kind of the birth of the sport. I

4:56

started highlining and slack climbing in 2008. I

5:00

just started in a park between trees. It was totally

5:02

a hobby for me at the very get go. And

5:06

a series of things happened,

5:08

but a year later I found myself traveling

5:10

around Europe, backpacking, I was 20. And

5:13

that's where I was introduced to highlining for

5:15

the first time. And

5:17

I was mind blown. I

5:20

had never experienced fear like that. And

5:23

I kind of immediately had this goal

5:25

of walking one highline. It

5:28

was fascinating for me because I could

5:30

walk a slack line between trees close to the

5:32

ground, no problem. I was quite good. But

5:35

just moving that same line, 50

5:37

to 100 feet off the ground, it was

5:40

like my body stopped responding. I

5:42

was gripped. And I was

5:44

so intrigued by that. Why

5:46

is my mind preventing me from doing

5:48

this? If it's the same exact physical

5:50

effort, why can't I do it? Okay,

5:54

so slack lining, you're

5:56

on a woven fabric

5:58

that's, It's smaller than

6:00

the width of your foot, right? Yeah.

6:03

And then the difference between slack lining and high lining

6:05

is you're doing it in an elevated

6:07

state. And so what

6:10

you're saying is that I could do it on

6:12

the slack line, but as soon as I was

6:15

up X number of feet, it was a completely

6:17

different experience. It felt like you were in

6:19

a different body. Is that close

6:21

to being right? Yes. And

6:23

to clarify, on a high line, most

6:26

of the time, and the majority of people are wearing

6:28

a climbing harness with a leash. So

6:30

you're totally safe. If you fall, you're not going to

6:32

fall to your death. But

6:34

even knowing that, I was somehow unable

6:37

to get my body to respond when

6:39

I told myself, stand up. I

6:41

just couldn't move. Okay.

6:44

So that's a natural response. That

6:47

is what is supposed to take place when

6:49

you're in the presence of fears. Your body's

6:51

supposed to say, tighten up, don't move forward.

6:54

Why go into danger? We're

6:56

trying to keep you alive

6:58

here. What are you

7:00

doing? And so while intellectually

7:03

you know that you're tethered, the

7:06

entire flooding of information coming into your brain

7:08

is, I am at heights. If

7:11

I fall, I could die. So there's this weird

7:13

short circuit that takes place from the thinking

7:16

brain and the automatic response mechanisms

7:18

of the brain. And so how did

7:20

you work through that? Because what you're describing is

7:22

why I got into the field of sports psychology.

7:25

I could do it in practice, but I couldn't

7:27

do it game day. I could do it

7:30

when I felt

7:34

safe to be able to go for it. But then as

7:36

soon as I had this other narrative

7:38

that, oh, there's real consequences on the line, I

7:40

would tighten up. So how did you do

7:42

it? Well, initially, I was

7:44

very frustrated, right? I'd never

7:47

participated in an activity like that where

7:49

fear was stopping me from achieving something.

7:51

Of course, I'd been nervous like anyone.

7:53

But it was a different feeling. It

7:55

was very much like you just explained

7:57

this primal fear, like something hardwired. in

8:00

my brain, you know, don't be out in

8:02

the void. Initially I just decided

8:04

I need to walk one high line. I

8:06

just got to walk one and then obviously

8:08

I'm not cut out for the sport, I'm

8:11

not good, then I'll be done.

8:13

And the first five high lines I tried,

8:16

I didn't walk them successfully. I just stood

8:18

up and fell and stood up and fell,

8:20

stood up, took a step, fell. I fell

8:22

so many times. And so when you fall

8:24

on a high line, you're typically dangling on

8:27

a leash in a harness three

8:29

to four feet below the line. But then you

8:31

have to climb back up that leash and remount

8:34

the high line. So it's very physical. And

8:36

then you have all this adrenaline coursing through your

8:38

body at the same time. And you're trying

8:40

to remain calm. And the people

8:42

I started with, they were a little bit more experienced

8:44

than me, but this was kind of a moment

8:47

in the sport where we're really pioneering

8:50

the sport itself. So there wasn't a ton

8:53

of information out there to rely on

8:55

or refer to. And

8:57

we kind of sort

9:00

of navigated that together as a team. Like,

9:03

how do we take our

9:05

skills on the ground and that calm, that

9:07

sense of calm and focus and

9:10

do it when we're high off the ground and our

9:12

brain is responding that way. And

9:14

so one, one method that I started to

9:16

use was using logic. So

9:19

really reminding myself with that

9:21

internal dialogue, you are safe,

9:24

you are tied in, the high line

9:26

is safe, you will be okay. It

9:29

was really my first introduction to the ego

9:31

as well, because I almost felt like my

9:33

brain split into these different voices. When I

9:35

was on the high line, I had

9:38

this kind of chatter going on of you suck,

9:40

you can't do this, you're going to fall, you're

9:42

no good. And this other voice

9:44

that was trying to combat that of you

9:46

can do this, you can stand up one

9:49

step at a time. And I really

9:51

noticed how I had

9:53

a way of elevating

9:56

one of those voices. I

9:58

couldn't make the chatter the negative. of self-talk

10:00

go away, but I could make

10:02

it quieter. And

10:05

so by kind of focusing on

10:07

that positive voice, it wasn't

10:09

a voice of confidence so much as

10:11

a voice of just encouragement. I

10:14

was able to like, get

10:17

through that block, that

10:19

gripped feeling. And in

10:21

a lot of ways, it was kind of just

10:23

about throwing myself at it over and

10:25

over again. And each time learning a

10:27

little bit more and each time understanding

10:30

more of what worked for me. Faith,

10:33

this is really exciting for me

10:36

as an applied psychologist here to

10:38

hear you talk about the civil

10:40

war inside of yourself. You've got

10:43

this primal reflexive

10:46

fear response to keep you

10:48

alive. You've got this ambition

10:51

to try to get to the

10:53

edge and try to unlock this thing and figure

10:55

it out. You've got a goal, if you will.

10:57

And you've got two types of narrative. You've

10:59

got the, what are you doing? Get off of

11:01

this. This is crazy. You're not going to figure

11:03

it out. You're not built for this. You're

11:06

going to get hurt, whatever that narrative is that

11:08

was constricting you and keeping you safe. And then

11:10

you have this other narrative,

11:13

which is purposeful and productive. And

11:16

you're trying to move yourself forward with

11:18

that type of self-talk. We all have

11:21

both of these narratives. All of us have it.

11:23

This is why I wanted to have the conversation

11:25

with you because most people look at

11:27

what you do and we're going to get to the

11:29

solo bit in a minute, which has the most

11:33

radical consequences that you could

11:35

imagine. Mistakes cost

11:38

lives. That you were able to

11:40

work with your self-talk, to work

11:42

with your narrative. And I'm going

11:45

to stop talking here because I've got a direction I

11:47

want to go. But this idea that you are saturating

11:51

your experience

11:55

with productive, positive, purposeful

11:57

self-talk to damp down and quiet.

12:00

at the other party survival mechanisms is

12:02

awesome. That is great. And

12:05

you were doing it a little bit like, I

12:08

don't know, in kind of an archaic, unsophisticated,

12:12

you know, brute force, you figured

12:14

it out. There are some

12:16

better ways, but I just want to get to

12:19

the raw source of it. Do

12:21

you recognize that we all have those narratives? Like everybody,

12:23

not just you? Yes, 100%. And

12:26

in fact, it's over the last, you

12:28

know, 14 years that I've

12:30

been highlighting, I feel like I've understood so

12:32

much more about how those narratives affect

12:35

us in everyday life. They're

12:37

always there. They're always present. And

12:40

how I approached this voice

12:43

in my mind when I started

12:45

highlighting was via brute force. And

12:48

actually, over the course of my highline

12:50

career, I've come around to a much

12:52

kinder approach, which I find to be

12:54

far more sustainable. I

12:57

think it's easy to try to kind of

12:59

beat these voices down and think we need

13:01

to be absolutely fearless to achieve anything or

13:03

do anything that's hard. And

13:06

now I have realized that you don't need

13:08

to be fearless at all. You

13:10

just need to not let fear be

13:12

the one steering your ship, right? Like

13:14

you can have fear and still do

13:16

these things. And fear is

13:18

there to protect us. Like it's a very useful

13:21

tool. Especially when I'm

13:23

guiding people, I want them

13:25

to be a little scared. The people who just cruise

13:27

right up to the edge of the cliff and get

13:29

too close, they make me nervous. I'm

13:31

like, hey, you want to maintain a little sense of

13:34

fear so that you can understand risk. But

13:38

when the risk is low, but your brain

13:41

is perceiving it as high, those are the moments where

13:43

you do want to be in control of your fear.

13:46

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that, let's jump right back into this

16:35

conversation. I love

16:37

this because when people look at you and you've

16:40

earned the right to

16:42

be world's best, you've set records.

16:44

I want to get to the solo bit here.

16:46

I've teased it three times. However,

16:52

when people look at you, they think

16:54

that oftentimes that you're different. You're

16:56

born with this high

16:59

ceiling for risk and you don't

17:01

maybe even have fear and how

17:03

reckless you are. There's a narrative

17:05

and a critique about it. They create

17:08

that narrative to feel okay

17:10

with their lives, okay that they're

17:12

not pushing it. They make you look like the

17:14

special different one. What I hear you saying

17:17

is, I couldn't even take a

17:19

first step. I was tethered. I was

17:21

up in the air. How many feet? Are we talking about your

17:23

first high line? My first high line was only

17:25

like 50 feet high. It wasn't even that high.

17:28

Five store buildings. It's funny that you say it's not that high.

17:33

It's high. There's some problems if

17:35

you fall from 50 feet. Relatively.

17:37

Good night. I

17:41

love this that you literally have

17:43

earned a world record on free soloing

17:46

and you're saying, yeah when I first started I couldn't

17:48

even take a step. I even thought I went from

17:51

zero to 100. I'm only going

17:53

to do this once and then I'm out of here. You

17:55

ended up staying with it for a long

17:57

time. That to me speaks volumes to... the

18:01

understanding how to work with yourself to

18:04

stay in it, whatever the

18:06

it is, when it matters. And

18:08

it mattered to you. You wanted to keep pursuing it.

18:11

So you're a trailblazer, you've carved a

18:13

unique path, and I love

18:16

it. Let's go to solo. Okay. Help

18:18

me understand why you go from, you know,

18:21

highlighting where you're safe, but

18:23

then you decide to transition into solo

18:26

highlighting. And like, why

18:29

and how did you do that? When

18:32

I first started highlighting, you know,

18:34

there weren't a ton of highliners worldwide,

18:36

but there had been some free solos

18:38

that had existed. So walking a highline

18:41

with no harness, no leash. So

18:43

very high consequence if you were to fall

18:45

off the line. And I thought it was

18:47

stupid. I was like, why would you take

18:49

that risk? But I went super hard when

18:51

I started out. And so I became very

18:54

good very fast. And I

18:57

quickly reached this point where I really

19:00

wanted to explore that space of I

19:03

can walk this line with a harness and

19:05

a leash over and over all day without

19:07

falling. It's super easy. Why if

19:09

I just remove the harness and the leash, is

19:11

it a totally different experience? The

19:14

harness and the leash doesn't make the

19:16

line easier physically. If anything,

19:18

it's more cumbersome. But somehow

19:20

having that leash attached to my body

19:24

makes it entirely different in my

19:26

mind. And

19:28

so for whatever reason, be it

19:30

my brain releases different amounts of

19:32

dopamine and adrenaline and others, or

19:34

just me being inquisitive and curious,

19:37

I really wanted to

19:39

know what was preventing

19:41

me from walking a highline leashless.

19:44

And so I my first solo was

19:46

tiny, it was very small, relatively

19:49

very low to the ground, maybe 25 feet

19:52

up. And it was

19:54

like a good little introduction. Like, if

19:56

I can solve this very easy line, that's not very

19:59

scary for me. maybe

20:01

I'll continue pursuing that space. And

20:04

so I remember soloing that line and

20:06

just feeling pretty

20:08

powerful, like I had

20:11

really been in full

20:14

ownership of my mind and my body.

20:17

And I also recall

20:19

that I didn't think about

20:21

anything while I was on the line. It

20:23

was like I just locked into a certain

20:25

flow. And that was

20:27

a really amazing experience for me. And

20:30

in the next solos that

20:33

I did following that, I

20:35

had plenty of thoughts. I experienced that

20:38

gripped feeling again, where I was kind

20:40

of vibrating with fear because I was

20:42

so aware of the consequence if

20:44

something went wrong. However,

20:47

technically speaking, I had trained myself to

20:49

catch highlines if I fell. So

20:53

a lot of people see it as this

20:55

completely reckless thing, you know, stupid even. But

20:58

in fact, it's a very calculated risk. I

21:01

even went four years without falling off of

21:03

a highline completely. I caught every single time.

21:06

And for me, that was a really necessary type of

21:08

training if I was gonna be soloing. Cause I wanted

21:10

to know that I had a backup if

21:13

I did fall that I could catch the line. But

21:16

a lot of times with soloing, something

21:19

I noticed was that there's this very

21:21

fine line between intuition and fear. And

21:25

I think in our modern world, if

21:27

we don't get to interact with intuition

21:29

very often, we're constantly

21:31

distracted by screens, by communication,

21:33

by people, by busyness. And

21:36

it's rare that we really tune into

21:38

ourselves. And so sitting on

21:41

the edge of a cliff, deciding if I

21:43

was going to walk that highline with no

21:45

leash and no harness, was an

21:47

opportunity for me to really

21:49

look inside of myself. And at that

21:51

feeling I was having and

21:55

ask myself the question, is this fear?

21:58

Or is this a deeper knowing? an intuition

22:01

that's telling me not today, walk

22:04

away. It's super important

22:06

for me when I embark on a free solo

22:08

high line to really do it

22:10

for the right reason and feel

22:13

totally good about

22:15

that decision. And there's been

22:17

high lines where I wasn't sure. I didn't feel

22:19

totally solid that day for some reason. And I

22:21

walked the line with a leash many times and

22:23

felt great about it. But somehow when

22:26

I took off that leash and

22:28

approached the high line and sat on the

22:30

edge, I just felt, well,

22:32

today's not the day. And

22:34

so I guess part of it

22:36

was just kind of wanting to explore that,

22:38

to feel like I could

22:41

know myself on a deeper level and

22:43

to start to perceive

22:46

the difference between fear and intuition,

22:49

if that makes sense. I love the nuance

22:52

that you're sharing between fear and intuition and

22:54

how we are numb to our intuition. And

22:57

I also – so what I would like to do

22:59

is I would like to spend some time

23:01

here to open that up. When

23:04

you got – do you camp or

23:06

do you drive from a hotel in the

23:08

one that you're thinking of? Oh, typically camp. Yeah,

23:10

I'm usually sleeping outdoors. That's

23:13

right. So let's say that

23:15

you know today you're going to solo. Can

23:18

you tell me the one that you're thinking about right now

23:20

that we're going to capture what it was like? Well,

23:24

there was – actually, there was

23:26

a recent one that was – so

23:28

I'm kind of starting to put

23:31

together this film about soloing highlining with a

23:33

couple friends of mine who are filmmakers. And

23:35

it's the first time in my life I've

23:37

created a goal around soloing. There's been lines

23:40

I've wanted to solo, but I never attached

23:42

any sense of –

23:45

you know, an objective for them. And

23:47

this highline recently here in Moab, it's

23:51

a line I've soloed before. I knew I

23:53

could solo it. I'd soloed it maybe a

23:55

month before. But just shifting the pressure

23:58

to be – for filming

24:02

Made it very murky and hard to

24:04

determine if I felt okay about it

24:07

because I've sold for myself entirely Right

24:10

and then to yeah, this is a different variable Yeah,

24:13

I've wrestled with this working with

24:15

folks like you As

24:18

soon as there's a film crew around and just

24:20

like it keeps us Us

24:24

up at night like to knock it in

24:26

the way to knock it on due pressure

24:28

like the over rotation About

24:30

just having a new

24:32

variable a camera a different person Maybe

24:36

there's thousands or millions of dollars thousands

24:38

of people watching millions of dollars on

24:40

the line like it changes things one

24:43

hand Yeah, so I

24:45

do want to talk about that. But so let's

24:48

go. Okay, so let's maybe use your more recent

24:50

one Tent on zips, you

24:52

know, you're gonna solo today What

24:55

is that like when you're I'm assuming

24:57

you're gonna go maybe make some tea or

24:59

coffee or have some breakfast and And

25:02

just kind of have that morning routine. What

25:04

is that like for you? Let's just start there there's

25:07

a lot of Kind

25:09

of internal dialogue going on if I have

25:11

a line I want to solo A

25:15

good example is a high line in Yosemite Valley

25:17

that I've walked numerous times and I've always wanted

25:19

to solo It's 3,000 feet.

25:21

Hey, it's extremely exposed from

25:24

a technical standpoint totally easy for me,

25:27

but something about that line is so

25:30

intense and intimidating I've

25:33

Never managed to fully take off the

25:35

leash and just do it, but I've

25:37

been there multiple times wanting to so

25:39

wait Maybe you're scared

25:42

like maybe I'm not really weak. Yeah

25:47

Yeah, I'm totally joking. I

25:49

thought you would laugh but you didn't okay Yeah,

25:55

that's the voice of my head though, like So

26:00

3,000 feet fully exposed, wind or

26:02

no wind, high wind or low wind? You

26:05

always wind and oftentimes an upward draft, which

26:08

is really interesting. It's coming from under you,

26:10

which is just unusual. We don't experience that

26:12

very often. Oh,

26:14

God. Okay. Yeah. Water

26:17

below, rock below, like what's called? Oh, rock below. It's

26:19

basically between a spire and a wall.

26:23

And so, yeah. You survived 3,000 feet.

26:26

Does anybody survive a 3,000 foot fall? Absolutely

26:29

not. As a matter of fact, that's part

26:31

of what's so scary about it is you would have time to

26:33

think about it. Like you'd be falling for a while, you know?

26:37

And that does go through your mind when you're

26:39

soloing. Like I would be aware that

26:41

I was dying if I did fall. And

26:44

I know the sounds from much, but... No,

26:46

no. Let's... We're going to open

26:48

this thing up. Yep. You don't love your

26:50

mom, right? You don't love your mom and dad. I do love

26:53

my mom. I

26:55

grew up without a dad. So no one there

26:57

to love. I just grew up without a dad.

27:00

Yeah. Okay. Trauma there

27:02

or no trauma? Definitely trauma.

27:05

Yes. Trauma. Trauma. And

27:08

have you talked about your trauma or not so much? Oh,

27:11

yes. I have been in therapy for the last

27:13

three years. So I've done five videos. Have you

27:15

talked publicly about it? Not

27:19

specifically. I'm not private about

27:21

it, but I haven't like blasted it to the

27:23

world, so to speak. Can

27:25

you just shape how... We're going to get back to the

27:28

solo here in a minute, but can you shape...

27:30

Nobody gets to this world without trauma. Big

27:33

T, little T, we've all got it. Most

27:35

people are just so busy and trying to

27:37

protect and project the life of

27:39

success that they never get honest and end

27:42

up living a bit of a shell of themselves. And

27:44

it's like, you know, that movie don't look up, don't

27:46

really look in. So

27:50

my favorite people on the planet are those that go to the

27:52

edge and they've gone to the

27:54

edge in lots of different ways. Emotional

27:58

Edges, in your case, physical and consequential edges.

28:00

And they they know how to take care

28:02

of themselves because are working from an honest

28:04

place. And those that

28:06

on like. The. Base jumpers that the

28:09

have similar time was. The. Reckless

28:11

ones. Nobody really wants to be around

28:13

them. He asked. That.

28:15

The adrenaline junkies, The. No.

28:18

One really wants to be around on amid

28:20

stimulating fun in one way, but it's like

28:22

that's dangerous and reckless and that decision making

28:24

is not cool. What I hear you saying

28:26

is a reason I wanted a solo is

28:28

because it was the next natural step. I

28:30

was really good at what I was doing.

28:33

And. Just like a great mathematician. Just like a

28:35

great historian. Just like a great writer. I

28:37

just wanted to take the next natural step

28:39

and explore and go into that place to

28:41

see if I can add to the. Is.

28:44

Beautiful craft that I love science or

28:46

whatever. Do. I have that close

28:48

to being right. or was yeah narcissistic Like yeah,

28:50

I don't think there was a Texas. And

28:53

you know, I don't think I could

28:55

fully make that opinion about myself that

28:58

I. I felt like it was more

29:00

an exploration us and my own relationship

29:02

to my mind. You. Know

29:04

thousand and I never net. Als ik that

29:06

you actually have all the world records.

29:08

I had work or accidents and sexes. I

29:10

was just extremely driven. I never started

29:12

the sport with the intention as I'm in

29:15

a set records. I. Just

29:17

as pushing very hard and records are sort

29:19

of a byproduct. To. New

29:21

string, the pushing really hard

29:23

to your traumas. And

29:25

are the Keys or Little Tease yeah a big

29:27

teaser Lovers would love you know I have both

29:30

think T and. Little. T M M M

29:32

A happy to share a little bit

29:34

and I sampled a single mom oh

29:36

my fault we left my dad one

29:38

that I was degree that he was

29:40

that an abusive alcoholic and so I

29:42

don't have memories at that time but

29:44

I guess I was around file and

29:46

far as very small am my mother's

29:48

struggle of mental illness my entire life

29:50

and an. Is a severe harder

29:52

and so. I kind of grew up in

29:54

a house where I had no control over

29:56

my own environment and I've made a lot

29:59

of connections to the whole line for sits

30:01

in relation to my upbringing Because growing up

30:03

in our house were not only you have

30:05

to be the parent and you don't have

30:07

a parent parent you but an app. Environment.

30:10

Where you have no control over

30:12

your surroundings you desperately want. Something.

30:16

You can control. And

30:18

so highlighting was bought for me.

30:21

It was something that I could control.

30:23

Like. The line is shaking. Because

30:26

I'm shaking. I'm gonna get the thing

30:28

under control. And so

30:30

I think the initial first five or six

30:32

years I was highlighting, it was quite an

30:34

addiction for me. I was addicted to The

30:36

Control. And I was

30:38

very much. Of

30:40

the mindset that I need to beat myself down

30:43

that I had to. Beat. The fear

30:45

into submission. I needed to be so

30:47

hard on myself that I succeeded. And

30:49

I was also the example I had

30:52

growing up. I love my mom and.

30:54

Yet she also kind of displayed this

30:56

example of just getting herself into the

30:59

ground and say that's kind of what

31:01

I knew. That's what I thought you

31:03

had to do. You know, I didn't

31:05

know how to rest are take a

31:07

break or after an injury, do physical

31:09

therapy and recover. I would push through

31:11

the pain. And I was completely

31:13

unsustainable. And after about six years of High

31:15

Landing I had you know I destroyed my

31:17

knee and I had. Kind. of

31:20

other lingering in an injuries and I

31:22

was totally burnt out. And.

31:25

I think a lot of that was

31:27

related to the trauma I grew up

31:29

with. I'm just not having a healthy

31:31

relationship to the self and not knowing

31:33

how to be kind to myself either.

31:35

And so I i with or a

31:37

sort of rock bottom way. Basically.

31:39

Was no longer the record holder because

31:41

I was ironic as much because of

31:43

his injuries and I had no idea

31:45

who I was. I had completely fuse

31:47

my identity to the faith. Sticky who

31:49

has the world record holding Highlander and

31:51

I didn't know? I didn't know that

31:54

was happening. It just kind of happened.

31:56

you know? under my

31:58

nose and there It

32:00

was really strange to realize that

32:02

I felt totally worthless. And

32:05

it was terrible. And I

32:07

thought, wow, I've

32:09

never learned to just like love

32:12

myself and feel intrinsically valuable. I've

32:15

only known how to do it via my

32:17

performance. And it sort of

32:20

dawned on me how many people do that with their

32:22

careers too, you know? And I

32:24

always thought I was above that like,

32:26

oh, I've chosen the alternative path. I've

32:28

chosen passion and travel

32:31

and living outdoors. But actually the same thing

32:33

was happening to me. And

32:35

so that was sort of a turning point for

32:37

me where I kind of started to work on

32:39

myself and to heal my body and

32:42

change my relationship to fear and

32:44

my relationship to highlining. I

32:47

really didn't want to highline for

32:49

a few years. I was done.

32:51

I just wanted to completely walk

32:53

away. I'm going to pause the conversation here for

32:55

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that you buy there. Let's

36:33

jump right back into the conversation. So

36:36

what you're describing is identity

36:39

foreclosure where I am

36:41

what I do and that

36:43

happens at a relatively young age especially

36:45

when there's a talent or a deep

36:48

interest involved. And

36:50

I am how well I

36:52

am what I do relative to other

36:54

people. Now that's a

36:56

performance-based identity. So the

36:58

first danger that you just described is I shut

37:00

down everything else. I am this. And

37:03

then when you build from that, you build

37:05

a performance-based identity. So I am how good

37:08

I do what I do relative to other

37:10

people. And then as soon as somebody else

37:12

breaks a record and you're not in the

37:14

light anymore, you're not in the thing able to

37:16

demonstrate who you are, you don't matter. Not

37:19

really but that's the way it feels. And

37:21

so thank you for sharing that. And

37:24

also like can you help me

37:27

understand the level of pain

37:29

that you felt and the suffering from

37:32

growing up in that family and how

37:35

that felt or transmuted

37:37

into the deep work that you're doing?

37:41

I think that this kind of rock bottom

37:44

period where I also was totally unsure what

37:46

to do with my life. I've been a

37:48

professional athlete for the majority of my 20s

37:50

and I didn't really know how to pivot.

37:55

You know, I think it's when I started

37:57

to relate my upbringing to the way I'd

38:00

been practicing highlighting. You know, I

38:02

was addicted. The highlighting like you

38:05

to be addicted to drugs. When

38:07

I was on a high line

38:09

experiencing that intensity, I didn't have

38:11

to think about the mom I

38:14

couldn't rescue or save the things

38:16

I've is lacking in my childhood.

38:18

Ah, and after, think about. You.

38:21

Know my relationship to myself because

38:23

I was there for a very

38:25

specific goal and that was to

38:27

become very good at highlighting and

38:29

to control the line and control

38:31

myself. Which. Is. A.

38:35

Propeller towards Excellence. But.

38:37

Not freedom. Not. Masses remotely the

38:39

that might did you really good, you know.

38:41

And it did in your case. One of

38:43

the things that happens with trauma is that.

38:46

There's. And alone experience that happens. And.

38:49

So you could. Feel

38:52

you could physically be in the

38:54

presence of other people, but there's

38:56

a very unique thing that happens

38:58

is that trauma feels so overwhelming

39:00

and then so separating to other

39:03

people. Let's say in the in

39:05

the case of violence or abuse.

39:08

Come. The

39:10

the most grounded level. You don't

39:12

matter. Case. Let's do physical

39:14

violence for a moment. You. You

39:17

are the punching bag. You are

39:19

the. On the way

39:21

to relieve the abusers sense

39:23

of. Agitation,

39:25

irritation, suffering, So.

39:28

You don't matter. They matter more.

39:30

And so when we feel that

39:33

sense that we don't matter and

39:35

there's a separation. I'm

39:37

and in her and her

39:39

objectification of the experience. That

39:41

alone This is where the

39:43

trauma says. That. Feeling that

39:45

I don't matter and. What? You did

39:47

was quite remarkable from that place. Is

39:50

that you took that sense of alone,

39:52

this and sense of need of of

39:54

being in control. not out of control

39:56

because the other person's in control and

39:58

you you used it. In High

40:00

Like? Literally. To. You are

40:02

needing to be in control to to be

40:04

safe. Therein. Lies like

40:06

the propellant for you. It sounds like. Healing.

40:09

Doesn't happen and you. Calibrate.

40:12

With another person where they see you and

40:14

they understand and you're vulnerable enough to share

40:16

with them what it's like to honestly be

40:19

you and what it was like to be

40:21

you. Then. And.

40:23

I and so does this calibration

40:25

happens. Just. By being in the

40:27

presence of another person. That. Their.

40:30

Their commitment is to see you and

40:33

feel you and understand you and and

40:35

want to support you and understand like

40:37

who you're wanting to become based on

40:39

where'd you come from. And.

40:41

It sounds like that's the healing mechanism

40:43

that you had that soloing again and

40:45

breaking a new record. Was.

40:47

Going to be. A. Fruitless. Same.

40:50

But. I'm I'm sitting with another person and

40:53

and this the think was a psychologist

40:55

or therapist. Yes, I ended. Up in

40:57

I could have initiated sell for time

40:59

by myself that I knew that I

41:01

needed someone a professional to help me

41:03

and that you know there was only

41:05

said that girl and but I feel

41:07

like you know during those two years

41:09

why I wasn't highlighting much and I

41:11

was kind of addressing his injuries that

41:13

were a direct result sometimes so hard

41:15

and a sport I started to. Tennis

41:19

I filled in internal sensors

41:21

myself. That. I didn't have

41:23

before and so when I did begin highlighting

41:25

again after kind of a two year break

41:27

of not really wanting to highline and sort

41:30

of doing it occasionally because it was my

41:32

job and I would have a job to

41:34

that do and. I started

41:36

to. Change. My relationship to

41:38

the activity was in the past.

41:41

it was always about getting across

41:43

at right, succeeding succeeding succeeding. Achievement.

41:45

Achievement. Ancestry. Yeah, right.

41:47

accomplishment. And now. When I'm

41:50

on a high line. I

41:52

remind myself that. You.

41:54

Are here for this moment. Each

41:58

moment on the line as wire. there.

42:00

I'm not on the line to get to the other

42:03

side. I'm on the high line

42:06

because of each moment. And

42:08

that's why I fell in love with highlining, right? Was

42:10

that that feeling out

42:12

there being in space being absolutely

42:14

present and feeling a sense of

42:17

focus that is really rare to

42:19

experience in life where nothing else

42:21

matters. It's like everything melts away.

42:23

And the only thing that matters

42:26

is that moment. And

42:28

so it was like... I

42:31

love how you're describing this because adrenaline-based

42:37

environments where you have to gear

42:39

up, to key up, to be

42:41

deeply focused because there are consequences

42:45

are forcing function to be in the present moment. Very

42:48

rarely did they transcend deep wisdom,

42:50

transcend into the

42:53

richness of life. But it is a forcing mechanism

42:56

to be in the present moment more often. You

42:59

can get it on sitting on the pillow meditating,

43:01

which I spend ample time there. And

43:03

you can also get it from environments

43:05

of consequence where it's forcing you to

43:08

be right here, right now. Totally. So

43:10

how did you square your

43:12

practice of being present with

43:14

what it seems to be a sense

43:17

of insight and potentially wisdom?

43:19

How did you crosswalk those two?

43:23

I think just going through that

43:25

transition of sort of separating my

43:27

identity from my achievements and who

43:29

I was in the sport and

43:32

kind of humbling myself in a

43:34

way. And then also just reevaluating,

43:37

really reevaluating why I do it

43:40

at all. And realizing

43:42

that I gain so much from

43:44

those moments on the high line,

43:46

I gained much more from the

43:48

process than I do from successfully

43:51

stepping onto the cliff on the

43:53

other side of the line. It's

43:55

the process of being out

43:57

there that is the most rewarding and what

43:59

teaches... teaches me the most about

44:01

myself. So let's

44:03

drill into the process of freeing your

44:05

identity from your

44:08

performance aspects. Just dive into

44:10

that. It doesn't need to be buttoned up, but

44:12

how did you free yourself from

44:15

defining yourself based on what

44:17

you do and how good you are into the

44:20

new faith, which I want to understand.

44:24

I would say that one of the main

44:26

ways is to let go of

44:28

expectations of myself. So

44:31

part of that rock bottom experience was having

44:33

these crazy expectations of

44:35

myself. And then I was injured and I

44:38

thought I should still meet those expectations. It

44:40

made zero sense logically. But you

44:42

know, we're not always logical. So

44:45

now it's like I approach

44:47

a high line with curiosity, not

44:50

an expectation. And it doesn't mean I don't

44:52

set a goal. You know, maybe the goal

44:54

is I'm gonna try as hard

44:56

as I can or I'm going to walk

44:59

to that spot on the high

45:01

line today or I'm gonna do

45:03

this many runs. But the goal isn't

45:06

something I'm attached to. It's more like,

45:09

huh, I'm gonna see what it feels like today.

45:12

Hmm. I'm gonna see how my mind is today

45:15

and I'm gonna see how this technique works

45:17

today. And I have

45:19

this whole arsenal of techniques that I use

45:21

for navigating my mind while I'm on a

45:23

high line. And generally,

45:27

they're all techniques that I've developed over the last,

45:29

you know, 14 years. But

45:31

it used to be about... Don't hold back now.

45:33

Don't hold back now. What are some of those

45:35

good ones? Okay,

45:38

some of them. Well, I already

45:40

mentioned using logic, but I

45:42

don't even hardly use that one anymore because typically the

45:44

lines I walk, I've set them up so I automatically

45:47

trust them because I know what I'm doing. I

45:51

really like this... Probably the most useful technique

45:53

for me is to get in my body.

45:57

So obviously we can be so cerebral

45:59

and... analytical and be kind

46:01

of lost in this mental chatter.

46:04

So for example, I will really bring

46:06

my awareness and attention to

46:08

the feeling of my foot as it

46:10

touches the slack line that I'm

46:13

walking on and

46:15

what it feels like with my hand

46:17

in space and even just the

46:19

slight breeze I might feel like caressing

46:21

my hand as it goes by. I

46:24

mean, really, The fun on your shoulder. Yeah,

46:26

like it's, yeah, yeah, yeah. It

46:29

sounds super cliche, but it's like it

46:31

gets me in my body and it

46:33

gives my mind something to focus on

46:35

instead of that chatter. Yeah.

46:38

Okay. Love that. And then how do

46:40

you do that on the cliff's edge? Prior

46:43

to getting on the high line. Yeah.

46:45

I'm assuming you warm yourself up and you get into

46:47

your body before. Yeah, definitely. Definitely.

46:51

I sit there on the edge. I might have tied

46:53

the leash to my harness already if I'm wearing a

46:55

leash. If I'm not wearing a leash, then I'm just

46:57

sitting there on the edge. And

47:00

I take very deep breaths and

47:02

I'm sure you have run into

47:04

the breathing component and people you've

47:06

talked to and activities you, you

47:09

work with. Breathing

47:12

is key. It

47:15

is, I would say it's impossible to

47:18

do any of this without being a

47:20

good breather. And the short,

47:22

shallow breaths that we take just elevate

47:24

all of those stress responses, but

47:26

just by taking super deep, calm

47:29

breaths, kind of

47:31

relaxing my body before I go forward is

47:34

super useful to me to just to listen

47:37

to myself and to know if, if

47:39

that's the decision I want to make, you

47:42

know, like if it feels like I'm breathing

47:44

as a way to get into your body. Yeah. Oh,

47:46

sorry. Please continue. Oh, no, no, no, no. Go for

47:48

it. I

47:50

might just ramble about breathing. Okay.

47:52

So breathing is a way to get into your body. Yeah,

47:56

no, no, let's stay here. So it's a way to get

47:58

into your body and it's a way to. regulate,

48:01

it's a way to quiet yourself and

48:04

then I think where you're just pointing

48:06

to is back to that like where we

48:08

started the intuition versus fear responses is

48:10

to try to open those two up

48:13

to better understand what are the signals

48:15

that are coming from the bottom up

48:18

right? So bottom up signals like well

48:22

actually let me not confuse bottom up top down

48:24

so you're just able to listen to the signals

48:27

and so let's get into the

48:29

mechanics of breathing. Are you breathing? Are

48:31

you opening your rib cage? So

48:34

this is how I do it. Let me just so I open

48:36

my rib cage not in so

48:38

that my lungs can drop down so I've got

48:40

more space so I can get a

48:43

deep breath from the bottom of my lungs and

48:45

then fill all the way up into my back.

48:48

Now that that's a very technical thing

48:50

that I'm trying to do. Is yours

48:52

technical or is it more casual and it's

48:54

just like let me settle in long exhale

48:57

settle in? I would say it might as

48:59

more casual because I haven't studied breathing

49:01

I've really just learned about breathing via

49:04

high-lining but mine is kind

49:06

of a combination of rib expansion and belly

49:08

breath breathing. Yeah so it's like an opening. So it's kind

49:10

of like opening and

49:12

then I feel like the the breath

49:14

out is very important. It's like I

49:16

really need to let the full breath

49:18

out because that last

49:21

moment relaxes my body. There's two

49:23

things that happen for me on the exhale.

49:25

One when I'm keyed up it's like a

49:27

jagged exhale and it's

49:29

not smooth and it's not until I

49:31

can find that smooth exhale where I

49:34

know I'm really close to being in

49:36

the slipstream and so like

49:38

big inhale do you take an extra sip

49:40

like to open it up or hold or

49:42

do anything at the top before you exhale?

49:45

Sometimes. And then as you exhale

49:48

you were talking about the end of the exhale

49:50

like you're working to get all the way to

49:52

the end and when you get to the

49:55

end do you pause there or is it

49:57

more like a quick transition?

50:00

pause. And

50:02

pause for like half a beat.

50:04

Yeah, sometimes I'll pause for like a

50:08

full cycle. So if my inhale is say five

50:10

seconds, and my exhale is 10

50:12

seconds, I might pause for another five or

50:14

even 10 seconds, like an extended. To

50:17

me, there's such a rich amount of

50:19

information in that pause.

50:21

But how are you listening between intuition

50:24

and fear? Like tell me

50:26

about that knowing

50:29

or that sensing? I

50:32

don't think I could fully

50:34

say I even know. It's, it's

50:36

more like I'm trying to lean,

50:38

you know, like I think

50:43

if I can really fully relax my

50:45

whole body, then that

50:47

feels kind of like a knowing that that

50:49

it's a choice I want to make

50:51

that I want to solo that line. And

50:54

if I maintain some tension, and that tension,

50:56

I can't really get that tension to go

50:58

away while I'm sitting on the cliff before

51:00

I even get on the line. Sometimes

51:03

that kind of can lead me to

51:05

lean more into maybe today's

51:07

not a good day. Oh, you know, maybe

51:09

there's something about okay, so if you

51:11

can't work with the fear,

51:14

if you can't have a relationship with the

51:16

keyed up nature, that is supposed

51:18

to take place, if you're going to

51:21

do something really important, whether it's death

51:24

risk or life risking or not, if

51:26

you can't work with it, then you're saying,

51:28

huh, maybe my intuition is just saying, yeah,

51:31

like, normally I can work with my fear.

51:34

But today something else is happening. There's something

51:36

that's unavailable to me. And

51:38

if I can't quiet it down, I can't get

51:40

in into my body, maybe

51:42

for another day. Is that how it works? Yes,

51:45

I would say so. And it's important

51:48

to like differentiate that this is this

51:50

is something with a super high consequence. And

51:52

so I'm not willy nilly about it at

51:55

all. I want to live a long life,

51:57

you know, however, if I was having a

51:59

similar experience. was something that wasn't, you

52:02

know, didn't

52:05

have death as a risk, like let's say

52:07

it was a job interview or just some

52:09

other situation that made me nervous. I

52:12

might kind of persevere through that, you

52:14

know, even if I didn't feel like I

52:16

could totally relax. Sometimes you

52:18

still have to step up to the plate in

52:20

life. I love that. It's not,

52:23

you know, it doesn't mean that you can always just walk

52:25

away because it doesn't feel right. But

52:28

in the case of free soloing, which

52:30

is totally something I elect to do,

52:32

that there's absolutely no real

52:34

need to do in life. That's

52:36

a situation where I'm going to err on the side of caution. And

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now back to the conversation. Very

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cool. Yeah. Now it does change

55:49

when you've got a couple

55:51

million dollars on the line. Somebody's invested

55:53

in this filming. Sponsorships need

55:55

something in the can by whatever. And

55:58

there's people and I... Yeah,

56:01

it does change it and I wish

56:04

I was immune to it and I was a true sage in that way but

56:10

I feel it too and so I spent

56:12

a lot of time thinking writing. How can you not?

56:15

So how do you work with

56:17

that? You know, one of the,

56:21

I guess one method is that, you

56:23

know, with this two people that I've started sort of

56:25

this project with, you know, we

56:27

haven't sold this to anyone. We've

56:30

only pitched it to a couple networks too so

56:32

we haven't signed anything. Like there's no pressure yet.

56:37

Well, there is pressure in the sense of we

56:39

need to go gather content, right, to make the

56:41

pitch. But

56:44

I told them, hey, there's a chance we'll go

56:46

out to film and today, that day is not

56:48

the day. Like, you

56:50

all need to be prepared for me to walk

56:53

away if it's not right. I'm not willing to

56:55

risk my life for a

56:57

movie, you know? And

57:00

I think that sort of laying

57:02

that groundwork and making sure I have

57:05

a supportive group who are not going

57:07

to pressure me and really having people

57:09

who understand what I'm doing

57:11

and understand the need for me to not be

57:13

pressured is what makes me

57:15

feel safe enough to do that type

57:18

of project. I love that. And I

57:20

have to be okay with it. Which is hard

57:22

too. It's one thing to

57:24

have your team be supportive. It's another thing

57:26

for you to be okay with walking away.

57:31

That takes incredible strength to do. And

57:33

so bravo for navigating it so

57:36

far so well. So

57:38

can you take, I want to go

57:40

back to a solo, right?

57:42

And you picked the one, but just

57:45

bring me into it. Describe to me

57:47

what it's like, you know, at the

57:49

Cliff's Edge, you found that sense of

57:51

calm, you've done some breathing, you've worked

57:54

with your inner dialogue, you feel like

57:56

you are in your body, you

57:58

stand up. And then bring

58:01

me into a particular environment. Where

58:03

are you? What does that

58:05

first step look like? What do you do before you take

58:07

a first step? Do you make eye contact? Do you hug

58:09

other people? Do you do a prayer? What,

58:14

bring me into that experience, full-bodied

58:16

experience. I definitely don't

58:18

have a ritual. I

58:20

definitely don't hug anyone. That

58:22

would feel far too foreboding to me. I

58:25

want to keep it light. And I

58:27

don't want it to be this big, serious, scary

58:30

thing. And so if I were to act like

58:32

it was my last moment on earth, that's what

58:34

it would become. It's

58:36

important for me to still kind of view

58:39

it as a skill that

58:41

I've honed and developed. And

58:44

to believe and trust in myself and my ability to

58:46

do it safely. But

58:49

typically I'm sitting on the edge of the cliff. I've gotten

58:51

to that kind of calm feeling and I want to

58:53

fill a little line and I feel capable of it.

58:56

So highliners usually scoot out about two

58:58

or three feet from the edge of

59:00

the cliff onto the highline and then

59:02

stand up on the line from there.

59:06

And that's so that when you're wearing a leash and a

59:08

harness, if you were to fall, you wouldn't swing into the

59:10

cliff. So obviously it's unnecessary to

59:12

do it when soloing. However, it's what I'm

59:15

used to doing. So I still do that

59:17

while solo. So I scoot out a

59:19

few feet away from the cliff and I get

59:22

into a position where I'm about to stand up on

59:24

the line from a sitting position. And

59:26

that's kind of the moment where it clicks

59:28

because scooting out on the line is very

59:30

easy physically. So it doesn't feel scary. It's

59:34

when I get into the sitting position I'm about to

59:36

stand up. It's my heart is pounding right

59:39

now. Like my breathing, my breathing has changed.

59:41

Take some breath, Mike, take some breath. I

59:44

just scooted out there with you. Okay,

59:46

I'm imagining a 3000 foot gap and

59:53

this beautiful horizon. There's

59:55

a few people behind me and

59:58

my ass is out there now with you. Okay,

1:00:00

so it's not really, but my imagination is with

1:00:02

you. What are you wearing in this environment? I

1:00:06

typically wear whatever I wear to Highline, which

1:00:08

is maybe some hiking pants and a

1:00:11

T-shirt or a long sleeve depending on the weather. You've taken

1:00:13

your stilettos off. I've seen those images. You're

1:00:16

not- Not stoweling in high heels. You

1:00:18

Highline in high heels. Definitely not stoweling

1:00:20

in high heels. That's pretty amazing. I

1:00:23

have, I have Highline in high heels. Okay, I

1:00:25

encourage people to go to your Instagram to check

1:00:27

it out. So you scooted your ass

1:00:29

out there and it's on. Yes,

1:00:32

it's on. And I really feel the depth

1:00:34

beneath me in that moment. I can feel

1:00:36

how high I am off the ground. It's

1:00:38

almost like, you know, I'm so used

1:00:40

to that space with a harness and a leash, and

1:00:43

I've done it so much and for so long,

1:00:45

but when I'm solo, it almost like takes me

1:00:47

back to the first times I was on the

1:00:50

Highline. It really, I feel the exposure and the

1:00:52

height all over again. I don't

1:00:54

feel the same level of fear

1:00:56

that I did when I first tried my

1:00:58

lining, but I do feel a bit of

1:01:00

that like urge to be gripped, you

1:01:02

know, like a little bit of tension in my body,

1:01:04

like it wants to resist, you

1:01:06

know, my body is definitely saying

1:01:08

like, what are you doing? So fear

1:01:10

is there. Why are you out here? Out of reach. Right,

1:01:13

so you're working with fear. Yes, fear is there.

1:01:15

And then are you using- So

1:01:17

there's two basic strategies. There's physiological

1:01:19

and psychological. Are you using both

1:01:21

or primarily one or the other? Are you

1:01:24

talking your way through it or are you

1:01:26

using the physiological cues to breathe and ground and be

1:01:28

in your body? I

1:01:30

mean, breathing kind of happens the whole way across

1:01:32

the line. However, I've done most of the physiological,

1:01:35

you know, navigating of fear on the cliff before

1:01:37

I get on the line. And so once I'm

1:01:39

on the line, it becomes much more of like

1:01:41

physical techniques to navigate it. So

1:01:44

I try to lock in to that kind of

1:01:46

muscle memory of how to stand up and how to

1:01:48

take steps and how to stay stable. And

1:01:51

so even though I have that kind of tension

1:01:54

arising or a bit

1:01:56

of a heart flutter or even a

1:01:58

slight vibration in my body. from

1:02:00

adrenaline and fear. I am

1:02:02

taking deep breaths and

1:02:05

I'm locking into the progression

1:02:07

of the physical steps

1:02:09

I take so I'm getting

1:02:12

into the position of standing up. I'm setting

1:02:15

my eyes on the end of the line where

1:02:17

I'm focusing on and then I am just trying

1:02:19

to breathe and commit

1:02:21

to it. It's so much about commitment.

1:02:23

What do you say to yourself? Is it like

1:02:25

you got this? This is what you do. Get

1:02:27

your shit together. I say

1:02:30

breathe. I tell myself to breathe. You

1:02:32

go technical. I say calm. Calm,

1:02:35

breathe. Okay, so you're not

1:02:38

having your back. You are

1:02:40

being technical and directional with

1:02:42

your self-talk. Yes. Because

1:02:45

if I can lock into the physical

1:02:47

endeavor then the

1:02:50

rest of the fear kind of

1:02:52

fades to the background. It's forced to because

1:02:54

we can only focus on one thing really at a

1:02:56

time. So you're driving your

1:02:58

attention to something very technical.

1:03:00

Okay, and then cognitively you

1:03:04

said you drive your attention to the

1:03:06

end point. Now,

1:03:08

are you picking up, is it narrow

1:03:11

external at this point? Like you're picking up the

1:03:15

scraping on the metal hook or the

1:03:17

fabric of the slack line or is

1:03:19

it more general? Is it a little

1:03:21

bit more open

1:03:23

in your cognitive direction?

1:03:27

There's definitely kind of a heightened sense

1:03:29

of awareness. So I do feel like

1:03:31

I hear everything a little more

1:03:33

clearly. But

1:03:38

it's like I feel like so much of

1:03:40

my focus is on staying calm, on breathing

1:03:44

slowly and just having

1:03:47

a rhythm out there. You know, I'm not trying

1:03:49

to dwell in that space. I'm

1:03:51

not trying to push it to a

1:03:54

higher risk level. I'm trying

1:03:56

to just feel totally calm and

1:04:00

stable and just kind

1:04:02

of float across the line. That's sort of

1:04:05

the goal. I love

1:04:07

that you added the float. Is

1:04:09

there joy or is

1:04:11

it more intense? It depends

1:04:14

on the solo. It's not the same every

1:04:16

time. Sometimes it's very intense and

1:04:19

sometimes it feels so good and

1:04:21

I wish I had more

1:04:23

words to describe it. It feels so like

1:04:29

I'm in a groove, like the groove I'm supposed to

1:04:31

be in. Just

1:04:34

like the puzzle pieces just fitting together.

1:04:36

I mean I call it slipstream. It's equilibrium. There's lots

1:04:38

of work. Musicians call

1:04:43

it being in the pocket. It's about equilibrium. It's

1:04:49

a balance sport and so it's like

1:04:51

everything's in balance when I have those

1:04:53

kind of perfect solos. It's like my

1:04:56

body is in balance. I'm physically in balance but my

1:04:58

mind is in balance. You don't use the word

1:05:00

harmony. You use balance? I usually

1:05:02

use the word balance but you could use the

1:05:05

word harmony. So

1:05:08

when you say commitment,

1:05:10

like full commitment, and

1:05:12

then how do you muster that? What are

1:05:14

you doing internally? How are

1:05:16

you using your thoughts in your mind to

1:05:20

commit? Positive self-talk.

1:05:25

Obviously this is after I've decided to do it.

1:05:28

I've already committed to going out there to solo

1:05:31

and so then to kind of engage

1:05:35

and to commit to standing up and walking.

1:05:37

Then it's the you've

1:05:39

got this. So it's calm, breathing, and

1:05:41

then you've

1:05:44

got this. You've got this.

1:05:46

You've got this. Yeah, talking to myself and I

1:05:48

talk out loud to myself. I

1:05:50

find that to be far more effective than internally

1:05:52

talking to myself and I

1:05:54

listen to music on a high line too. Oh, okay.

1:05:57

You've got earphones in? Yeah. What's

1:06:00

on the playlist? I

1:06:02

have a whole Highline playlist. Uh, I don't

1:06:04

know if you know the band Grammatic or

1:06:07

it's kind of all like electronic

1:06:09

music, but with like acoustic elements, but it

1:06:11

has a very good rhythm. It's

1:06:14

a little bit upbeat. Interesting that you would

1:06:16

want that. So is that because

1:06:18

you, when you listen to that music,

1:06:21

it helps put you in a particular state? Absolutely.

1:06:24

It helps put me in a particular state.

1:06:26

It also reminds me not to take it

1:06:28

too seriously. And I

1:06:30

know that sounds counterintuitive when it's soloing. It,

1:06:34

it's like, it helps me remember that I'm choosing

1:06:36

to be there, but I made a choice

1:06:38

to be there. Let's dissect. Let's

1:06:40

investigate this simple little noxious

1:06:42

statement. You got this. Okay.

1:06:45

Is that I got this or you got this? I

1:06:48

say you've got this. Right. It's not I

1:06:51

got this. You got this. Okay. So

1:06:53

you, yeah, I sometimes I'll be like,

1:06:55

come on, Mike, you know, like it's

1:06:58

a weird thing that happens. Yeah. Totally. Yeah.

1:07:01

Okay. So you got this. Now

1:07:03

what gives you the right to

1:07:06

say that? How have you earned the

1:07:08

right to say you've got this? What

1:07:11

do you index that on? Well, shit ton of.

1:07:13

Okay. But let me, let me, great. Let me

1:07:15

just hear it. Like you got this. Now you

1:07:17

can, you can, anybody can say that, but

1:07:19

it can be hollow. It can be weak, but

1:07:22

okay. But this is one that has to work for

1:07:25

you. And so you say you got this. What are

1:07:27

you backing that up with? Uh,

1:07:30

years of practice, um, a

1:07:33

lot of successful solos. And another thing

1:07:35

that's an important technical detail is that

1:07:37

I'm not walking a high line that's

1:07:39

at my physical limit solo. So

1:07:41

if I can walk a 350 foot high line with a leash, I'm

1:07:43

not going to solo

1:07:46

that same length if it's difficult for

1:07:48

me, I'm going to solo a line.

1:07:50

That's a tense of that. Oh, I feel 300 not 350 high

1:07:52

350 long. No

1:07:56

long. So the length of the line is very

1:07:58

important because it gets harder. the longer it is.

1:08:01

And so I'm, yes,

1:08:04

and the line is heavier and it's harder to

1:08:06

control and it sways more. Okay. And

1:08:09

it takes longer, you're out there for longer.

1:08:11

And so first of all, I'm, I'm soloing

1:08:14

lines that are well within my ability range

1:08:16

with a harness. And so I know I

1:08:18

can walk them physically,

1:08:21

easily. That is awesome. So you've got

1:08:23

this comes from me knowing I'm capable.

1:08:26

It comes from me knowing I've sold

1:08:28

successfully and done it for years. It

1:08:30

comes from me training comes

1:08:32

from me. Like the last thing I

1:08:35

want is to be solo on a high line,

1:08:37

not knowing if I've got it. And

1:08:39

have you fallen on a solo? I wouldn't do

1:08:41

it. I have not. Okay. And

1:08:44

I have not pushed that hard. So that's

1:08:48

relative. Okay. And in fairness,

1:08:51

I didn't, none of us

1:08:53

saw you do a four foot line

1:08:56

and to get to 40 to get to 400.

1:08:58

Like, so you've been doing this a long time.

1:09:00

And you're very clear that your training has been

1:09:02

real, that you've, you've pushed

1:09:04

edges. Okay. So when

1:09:06

you say you got this, you mean it.

1:09:09

And that is a powerful statement that you can

1:09:11

make to yourself. It's not hollow. Yes.

1:09:14

It's like, for example, if somebody put a calculus

1:09:16

problem in front of me right now, I

1:09:19

could not tell myself you got this face.

1:09:22

Ditto. I understand. Okay. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

1:09:26

So like that is not, I'm

1:09:28

not doing that with highlighting. Like it's

1:09:30

something I've got. This is awesome. Thank

1:09:32

you for bringing me inside the

1:09:35

mind and the body of one

1:09:37

of the world's best. Okay. Now

1:09:40

let's describe finishing the

1:09:42

solo. Okay. So you are, this

1:09:44

is actually in my experience,

1:09:47

there's two very dangerous moments. Three,

1:09:49

actually I'll add one. One is

1:09:51

going when you're not ready. Two

1:09:55

is let's use your kind of thing. Like

1:09:57

you're in the last one third. Of

1:10:00

the thing so you're almost there, but you're

1:10:02

not quite there and there's like this

1:10:05

there's this distraction which is like Oh, I

1:10:07

got it or There's

1:10:11

just a break of distraction you want to

1:10:13

rush you're so close right okay, and then

1:10:15

the third is Within

1:10:18

three days of completing something

1:10:20

that is death defying life

1:10:23

risking there's a window there

1:10:25

that I've experienced with people that you

1:10:27

know that's where they Drive

1:10:29

drunk or that's where they you know speed with

1:10:31

the seatbelt off or because they feel like they're

1:10:34

Superman superwoman that invincible hmm. Yeah,

1:10:37

so there's a three-day glow to

1:10:39

three-day glow post So

1:10:41

I we just understood the first what

1:10:43

is it like towards the end for you? I

1:10:46

would say you know this is all changed over

1:10:48

the course of my career, but my

1:10:51

most recent solo the end is the hardest

1:10:53

part Not

1:10:55

only is the line changing because it's getting to

1:10:57

the end So it's getting tighter as it gets

1:10:59

closer to the anchor where it's secured but

1:11:02

there's also the moment of how am I going to finish

1:11:04

this line am I gonna sit down on it at the

1:11:06

very end or I'm gonna step onto the cliff and Sometimes

1:11:09

the high line itself can can you

1:11:11

know as your weight? stands

1:11:14

on it it it rubs on the rock

1:11:16

edge and so it moves a little

1:11:18

bit differently and so It's

1:11:21

almost like you have to just adapt to it

1:11:23

at the end Something

1:11:26

I have to remind myself of at the

1:11:28

at the the last you know quarter of

1:11:30

the high line solo is To

1:11:32

stay calm and not rush To

1:11:36

keep breathing to stay in control like I'm

1:11:38

not trying to leap onto the cliff To

1:11:41

be out of the realm of risk. I

1:11:44

need to just stay locked in and stay in that flow

1:11:46

and Then that moment

1:11:48

of stepping onto the cliff is quite

1:11:50

a Sensation I'm

1:11:53

sure you know all the chemicals that are being released at

1:11:55

that moment to explain it, but it really is like a

1:11:59

whoa like a wave just

1:12:01

washing over me. And it's

1:12:03

both a mixture of relief and

1:12:06

kind of euphoria too, of

1:12:08

like being in this intense moment

1:12:11

and then like passing through it. What

1:12:15

is the, so those are the

1:12:18

feelings, relief is a feeling and

1:12:20

euphoria is a feeling. Totally. And

1:12:23

do you ever get surprised by sadness? I

1:12:26

have not. So I've seen with

1:12:28

folks that have like risked it

1:12:31

all, whether it goes right

1:12:34

or wrong, like, well, actually let me start

1:12:36

over. I've seen

1:12:38

people who have risked everything. And

1:12:41

then when it's done, the relief is

1:12:43

so overwhelming that there's tears, there's a

1:12:45

sadness with it. And we call it

1:12:47

clearing the tube. And it's almost

1:12:49

like we need to give

1:12:51

some permission for people to feel everything in that

1:12:53

moment because there's so much going on. And there's

1:12:55

other, there's plenty of folks like Luke Akins, one

1:12:57

of my friends who you might know. When

1:13:01

he's about to go do something where his life is on the

1:13:03

line, he is like, high fives and like,

1:13:06

see you guys in a little bit. Like he does

1:13:08

not want to play it like this is a moment.

1:13:10

He's like, why would I do that?

1:13:12

Like I totally believe that I'm not crazy and

1:13:15

I'm not going to go do something stupid. Like

1:13:17

I am committing to going do something. It's dangerous,

1:13:19

I get it. And I'm not being sloppy, but like,

1:13:22

let's go. As opposed to, he says,

1:13:25

if I ever give you that look, Mike, that

1:13:27

I've done a bunch of projects with him, if I ever give you that

1:13:29

look, like, all right, man, I really

1:13:31

appreciate you. He says, please don't let me go. Like

1:13:34

throw the flag. Like, yeah, like that's not

1:13:36

what we're here for. Totally. Yeah, okay. So

1:13:39

at the end, you've got, what do your legs feel like?

1:13:41

Oh, they feel fine actually. It's almost like

1:13:43

an immediate calm because that kind

1:13:46

of vibration of I'm at risk right now,

1:13:48

it just is gone all of

1:13:50

a sudden. As soon as my feet are on the

1:13:52

cliff again, it's like that intense adrenaline feeling. Because, you

1:13:54

know, when I wear a harness and a leash on

1:13:57

a highline, a lot of times I don't get adrenaline

1:13:59

in my body. body anymore because I'm so

1:14:01

desensitized to it. Okay. But if I'm

1:14:03

walking without a leash, so low, the

1:14:05

adrenaline is unavoidable. Okay. So

1:14:07

you're on mother

1:14:09

nature and I

1:14:11

don't want to give you any prompt here.

1:14:14

What do you do in that moment? I

1:14:17

breathe out like big breath

1:14:22

and I'm not a very, I'm

1:14:24

not the type of person who's going to like jump up

1:14:26

and down or shout. Like I shout

1:14:28

occasionally in life at the end of a high line,

1:14:30

but soloing, it's more like gratitude,

1:14:34

I guess. Like I'm

1:14:36

grateful that I made

1:14:39

another good decision about soloing and I'm

1:14:41

grateful to be there and I'm just

1:14:44

kind of like, I'm smiling, you know,

1:14:46

but I'm pensive, I'm

1:14:48

a bit thoughtful. And where do you put your

1:14:50

attention? At the end of the solo. Is it internal? Is

1:14:52

it external? Depends. Depends

1:14:54

if I'm around a bunch of people.

1:14:57

I think if I, if

1:14:59

I'm with people and they just watched me solo, a

1:15:01

lot of times they're nervous. Um,

1:15:03

in the past when I was with, with people

1:15:05

who are also soloing, we were all just sort

1:15:07

of casual about it. Like, yeah, good job. Yeah.

1:15:10

High five, sort of like your friends. Um,

1:15:12

but if I'm with people who don't high line or

1:15:14

don't solo, usually it's quite intense for them. I mean,

1:15:17

they're watching me, a scared to breathe. Um,

1:15:19

so I usually turn to them and smile

1:15:21

like it's okay. Interesting that you're taking

1:15:24

care of them. Okay. So the

1:15:26

first experience is good woman, right? How

1:15:28

about it? So your first experience is

1:15:30

you're taking care or you look inward

1:15:32

and you're feeling the feelings and

1:15:35

then you, you go outwards and sounds like a default is

1:15:37

to take care of other people and you slipped in the

1:15:39

woman thing. I want to come back to that. That's a

1:15:41

cool, cool note to come back to. And

1:15:44

then, so, so then you take care of them. You're not

1:15:46

jumping up and down, who, ha, look at me, da, da,

1:15:48

da. It's none of that. Do you

1:15:50

know, do you look back? Do you

1:15:52

look up? Do you look down? Like

1:15:56

what, what do you do after you've connected

1:15:58

with your people? Yeah. I

1:16:02

definitely look out a bit. It's

1:16:06

almost like I have this kind of, the

1:16:08

visuals are kind of glowing.

1:16:10

It's like there's a bit of a glow

1:16:13

to everything after a solo. Like,

1:16:16

everything just seems a little more vibrant for

1:16:19

a moment, you know? That would make sense neurologically,

1:16:22

spiritually, psychologically. It

1:16:25

would make perfect sense. Okay, what

1:16:28

is your relationship with death? What

1:16:31

is your relationship with life? I'm afraid of death.

1:16:35

I'm afraid of death. I

1:16:37

would say I would put

1:16:39

myself in a normal parameter of fear

1:16:41

of death. I

1:16:44

don't want to die early. I would like

1:16:46

to live a long life. However,

1:16:48

I would say that the majority

1:16:50

of my life I've been more afraid

1:16:53

of people I love dying than of

1:16:55

myself dying. As

1:16:57

a kid, I was quite morbid. I would sign my

1:17:00

name in every house we lived in because I was

1:17:02

sure I was going to die early and

1:17:04

I wanted some relic of my existence

1:17:06

to exist in all these houses we lived

1:17:09

in. Where did that come from? Is that true? Where did

1:17:11

that come from? I

1:17:13

don't know. I really don't know. I

1:17:16

think I was just kind of a morbid

1:17:19

kid, you know? I thought about death as

1:17:21

a kid. I

1:17:24

can't imagine how we could possibly

1:17:26

string together observing or experiencing abuse

1:17:29

and more with a morbid. Totally.

1:17:33

Okay, so yeah. All

1:17:36

right, so one psychologist

1:17:38

to... Are you a risk taker or risk

1:17:40

manager? I would consider myself

1:17:42

a risk manager. Not

1:17:45

a risk taker? I take some

1:17:47

risks. Super

1:17:49

interesting. I would say I

1:17:51

take manageable risks. I don't

1:17:53

like risks that aren't manageable. So

1:17:56

for example, I'm really not attracted to driving

1:17:59

fast in cars. like super fast, you

1:18:01

know? Yeah, makes sense. So let's

1:18:05

go to like, just force

1:18:07

rank these two. My

1:18:10

loved ones dying before me, were dying

1:18:12

early, me dying early,

1:18:15

and me living a life that is

1:18:17

dull. So

1:18:20

I'm gonna rate, you want me to rank those

1:18:22

and the ones that are the most afraid of?

1:18:25

A dull, boring life,

1:18:28

loved ones dying, and me dying early. Biggest

1:18:32

fear is definitely loved ones dying. Second

1:18:35

fear is a dull life, and third would be

1:18:37

me dying early. Okay.

1:18:42

I doubt you should. No, makes perfect sense to

1:18:44

me. Yeah. So

1:18:47

living a boring life is worse than

1:18:50

dying early. It's

1:18:52

not a black and white question

1:18:55

or answer. I mean, if

1:18:58

you're happy in your dull life, then there's absolutely

1:19:00

nothing wrong with it. Do you imagine that to be

1:19:02

the case ever for anyone? I

1:19:05

don't know. Some people really love security

1:19:07

and knowing and having a

1:19:10

predictable life and they're okay. I mean,

1:19:12

I guess, you know, I've run

1:19:15

a highline festival for women for 14

1:19:17

years. And so when I started out

1:19:19

running that festival, I was trying

1:19:22

to encourage all the women to highline the

1:19:24

same way I did, which was just throw

1:19:26

themselves at it as hard as they could.

1:19:28

And over the years, I realized how different

1:19:30

we all are, and how differently we respond

1:19:33

to risk and pain and difficulty

1:19:36

and all the different myriad of challenges

1:19:38

in life. And I realized that I

1:19:40

couldn't expect people to behave the same

1:19:42

way I did, because it wasn't their

1:19:45

path. For some women, they

1:19:47

wanted to come and their challenge

1:19:50

was just to sit on the highline. That

1:19:52

was it. And that was so

1:19:54

intense for them just to sit there and

1:19:56

not even stand up. That

1:19:59

it was enough. It was enough for them. And

1:20:02

I had never been like that. I needed

1:20:04

more. I needed to really go as far

1:20:06

as I could. I needed to really find

1:20:09

my limit. And their limit

1:20:11

was just much closer than mine was. And

1:20:14

so it's sort of how

1:20:16

I developed acceptance for people who live

1:20:18

what I would think of as a dull life.

1:20:20

But for them, it's secure, it's

1:20:22

stable, and they're happy with it. They

1:20:25

don't want the chaos of unpredictability,

1:20:27

you know? Because I loved that.

1:20:31

The world is really unpredictable. So

1:20:33

it is a hard way

1:20:35

to go through life not wanting or

1:20:38

being against the grain

1:20:40

of what is the natural

1:20:42

order. And so like maybe we

1:20:44

had a brilliant scientist on that

1:20:47

made the case, Robert Sapolsky from Stanford

1:20:49

that made the case that, no, there's

1:20:51

perfect order. Like everything

1:20:53

is actually determined. And if

1:20:55

we just knew better how things would work, of

1:20:58

course we'd understand that you uniquely are highlighting, like

1:21:00

soloing. And I think that it's

1:21:02

not that way. And that's a good discussion for

1:21:04

anyone that wants to take a look at the

1:21:07

difference between free will and determinism. Sapolsky's

1:21:09

conversation. I'm imagining you're saying, no, I've got

1:21:11

a high agency in free will. I'm imagining

1:21:14

that that's your orientation. Yes and

1:21:16

no. I mean, I would

1:21:18

agree with him just to some

1:21:20

degree, only in regards to I

1:21:22

think that there's some predetermined aspects

1:21:24

of us in our

1:21:26

genetics. And obviously I didn't

1:21:28

choose the trauma that I experienced

1:21:31

growing up, but I think that

1:21:33

trauma diverted me to certain paths

1:21:36

or made things more attractive. So

1:21:38

in that regard, I didn't

1:21:41

choose to be interested in these kind

1:21:43

of intense experiences. Something

1:21:45

really fascinating about highlining. I

1:21:47

met so many highliners who were

1:21:49

former addicts. It

1:21:53

was wild. I started highlining in Europe and

1:21:55

so I didn't meet that many former addicts

1:21:57

over there. Like

1:22:00

three out of the six dudes I

1:22:03

was highlighting with had all

1:22:05

been addicted to drugs. And

1:22:07

I just found it really fascinating. And I started

1:22:09

to think like, huh. Interesting.

1:22:15

Interesting that this would be attractive

1:22:17

to people who also have addiction

1:22:19

problems. Speaking of like the

1:22:21

psychology of it, if we knew what

1:22:23

you knew, if we knew about the psychological

1:22:27

skills required to

1:22:29

thrive, which

1:22:31

skills would we be investing in? Was

1:22:41

that your first answer, breathing? Definitely. I

1:22:44

was... That was a bad, badly timed

1:22:46

joke. It was either going to be breathing or

1:22:48

there's... I'm so sorry. You know, the long exhale

1:22:50

was so brilliant. I just had to step on

1:22:52

it. They're so sorry. Yeah. But

1:22:55

seriously, you were kind of accurate because I

1:22:57

was going to say like breathing. I truly

1:22:59

believe if we all took three deep breaths

1:23:01

before any intense experience in life, we would

1:23:04

manage our lives so much better. I

1:23:08

do it regularly and sometimes I forget and

1:23:10

I succumb to anxiety and stress just like

1:23:12

anyone else. But there are

1:23:14

days where I am super stressed about something.

1:23:17

And if I can remind myself just to

1:23:19

pause and take those three deep breaths, I'm

1:23:21

so much better at approaching that stressful thing

1:23:23

or situation. The

1:23:26

other thing I would say is, and

1:23:28

it's the thing I learned over the course of my career, was talking

1:23:31

to ourselves kindly. So

1:23:34

I think a lot of us grew up with this idea

1:23:36

of like, you

1:23:38

know, I have to get rid of

1:23:40

these parts of myself. Like, I hate

1:23:42

these parts of myself. And

1:23:45

now I am approaching those parts of myself

1:23:47

with kindness. Like it's there for a reason.

1:23:50

It's trying to protect me. It cares

1:23:52

about me. I'm sure you're familiar with

1:23:54

internal family systems and these different modalities

1:23:56

of therapy, but it was

1:23:58

so cool when I discovered that. those because they

1:24:00

sort of lined up with what I'd already

1:24:02

been discovering on my own, but there was

1:24:05

a better, more eloquent way of explaining them.

1:24:08

And same with the MDR therapy. For

1:24:11

folks that are not familiar with IFS, can you

1:24:14

explain your relationship with it? IFS

1:24:16

is called Internal Family Systems, and it's

1:24:18

a type of therapy. And

1:24:20

part of what's great about it is it's one you

1:24:23

can do with yourself. It kind of basically

1:24:26

breaks all these parts

1:24:29

of us into characters. So

1:24:31

say one that's personal

1:24:33

to me is procrastination, right? I've always

1:24:35

struggled with procrastination. And so you

1:24:38

kind of see that procrastinator as a part of

1:24:40

you, and it's either a part that's trying to

1:24:42

protect a deeper part of you,

1:24:45

or it is the part itself. But

1:24:48

you learn to kind of see those parts

1:24:50

of yourself as a family, and they're not

1:24:52

enemies, and you work with them to

1:24:54

heal them and sort of understand them

1:24:56

and give them more healthy roles. And

1:25:00

yeah, that's kind of what I started doing with highlining before

1:25:02

I was even aware of that type

1:25:04

of therapy. But

1:25:06

like now, when I'm dealing with fear

1:25:09

or negative self talk, I literally approach

1:25:11

it with the same method.

1:25:13

I say, Hey, fear, I see

1:25:15

you. I know you're

1:25:18

trying to keep me safe, and you're just worried about me.

1:25:20

And like, I know this is

1:25:22

scary. It's like, we're so high off the ground. This

1:25:25

is ridiculous. Like, you're totally right. You're

1:25:28

right. But this is scary. But

1:25:31

hey, I really want to do this thing. And

1:25:33

so what if you and I do

1:25:35

it together? Like what if you come with

1:25:37

me, and I'll just like put you

1:25:40

in my little backpack and we'll do it together.

1:25:43

And so I'm I hear you and I

1:25:45

understand you. But like, let's just

1:25:47

try it. And that

1:25:49

has been so much more effective than being like,

1:25:51

Shut up, you're I'm gonna beat you down and

1:25:53

get rid of you. And

1:25:57

it's also cliche these days to talk about

1:25:59

like love and kindness. But man, how

1:26:01

many of us don't know how to be

1:26:03

kind to ourselves? And it's actually

1:26:05

far more effective. The relationship that

1:26:08

you build with yourself and the parts of yourself

1:26:10

and the way you're describing it, one,

1:26:13

it sounds really healthy. And

1:26:15

so I'm a fan of that

1:26:17

approach, accept, commit, more

1:26:20

aikido than karate. And

1:26:23

the goal is not to have

1:26:26

no fear, it's to get

1:26:28

to know your fear. And to work with your

1:26:30

fear. And I love what

1:26:32

you just did there. And so can

1:26:36

I shift gears and just do some rapid

1:26:39

fire, some quick hits and

1:26:41

just kind of see what pops

1:26:43

up for you? Sure. A

1:26:45

little bit of a roar shock, if you will.

1:26:47

But okay, so in a sentence or two or

1:26:49

a word or a handful of words, your

1:26:54

definition of success? Being

1:26:56

at peace with yourself. When

1:26:59

you think of a successful person, who do you think of?

1:27:02

Oh, I think of a

1:27:04

friend of mine who was a high school teacher

1:27:07

of mine, who seems

1:27:09

very at peace with himself. That you're going

1:27:11

to say yourself. That's

1:27:13

awesome that you had somebody else. It's a

1:27:15

hard question, believe it or not. It's a

1:27:17

really hard question. Winning is?

1:27:21

Winning is living.

1:27:26

Failure is? An

1:27:28

opportunity to learn? It

1:27:30

all comes down to? You?

1:27:33

The good life is marked by? Love

1:27:39

and community. Love

1:27:42

and community. I am?

1:27:46

Am I really supposed to just say what comes to mind? Because I

1:27:48

was just going to say faith. Of

1:27:51

course, that is so good. My purpose

1:27:53

is? To share what I know.

1:27:57

What wrongs do

1:27:59

you want to say? set right. Nothing

1:28:03

comes quickly. What rule do you

1:28:05

need permission to break? To play.

1:28:09

This is my year of play. That was my

1:28:11

entire focus for this year. Like 2023

1:28:15

was the year of play and I think I'm gonna rinse

1:28:17

and repeat. I want to play more next year as

1:28:19

well. Oh

1:28:21

we could talk hours about play. That is

1:28:24

awesome. It is so hard for me

1:28:26

to play. Especially your unique environment growing

1:28:28

up with control and

1:28:30

fear and you know I

1:28:33

totally get that as well. I

1:28:35

love that. Okay if you had a boat and you had

1:28:37

the chance to name the boat what would you name it?

1:28:43

Sherbert. Sherbert. I

1:28:47

don't know that's just what came to my

1:28:49

mind. I have no idea why. You have a relationship

1:28:51

with Sherbert? That is hilarious. No

1:28:54

not at all. That's just what popped into

1:28:57

my head. It just popped into the surface.

1:28:59

I was just there. Okay and

1:29:01

then it just rounds us out. If

1:29:03

you could sit with any master with

1:29:06

us or not with us, who

1:29:08

would that master be? Where

1:29:10

would you want to sit with them? And if you

1:29:12

only had one question what would it be?

1:29:17

I still I almost always go

1:29:19

back to Lynn Hill who was

1:29:22

a pioneer in the sport of rock

1:29:24

climbing. Not just

1:29:26

for women but for people. She was the

1:29:28

first person to free climb the

1:29:30

nose on El Kepetan before

1:29:34

any man did it. So she's just such an icon

1:29:36

to me and has been a hero for a long

1:29:38

time. I would

1:29:40

love to sit with her in Yosemite Valley where much

1:29:42

of her iconic history is rooted

1:29:45

in and I would love

1:29:47

to ask her what she's learned over

1:29:49

the course of her life. Fear

1:29:52

is an emotion.

1:30:01

And what I hope

1:30:03

for women is? Equality.

1:30:08

How far are we in your estimate

1:30:11

from that? From equality? I

1:30:14

would say 300 years. Whoa!

1:30:18

What does that mean? I know. What

1:30:20

does that mean? I would say we're 300 years

1:30:23

from actual equality. Oh,

1:30:25

you're breaking my heart. I just read this.

1:30:28

I know. I know. But so few things

1:30:30

have really changed. We had kind of rapid

1:30:32

change, and then we've just sort of stalled.

1:30:34

And now we've actually moved a little bit backwards

1:30:36

in some regards. I

1:30:39

just read such an interesting thing about why

1:30:41

fashion changed a lot during certain

1:30:44

periods. And then over the last

1:30:46

30 years hasn't changed much. Obviously,

1:30:49

you can find differences between fashion

1:30:52

in 1999 and now, but it's

1:30:54

not that different versus the previous

1:30:56

25, 30 years changed a lot. And

1:31:00

one of the theories was that socially

1:31:03

we haven't changed that much. And

1:31:06

that just really hit home for me because, I mean,

1:31:09

as a woman, I mean, almost

1:31:11

every single woman I know has been sexually assaulted.

1:31:16

Almost every woman I know or every

1:31:18

single woman I know experiences sexism on

1:31:20

a regular basis. I

1:31:24

still have to fight for space at the

1:31:26

table. And

1:31:30

I'm a guide. I'm in a male-dominated industry

1:31:33

as a climbing and highline guide. And

1:31:35

so I'm regularly faced with it. I had

1:31:37

such an interesting, the

1:31:40

month of October was very busy for me,

1:31:42

and I guided highlining for several retreats. I

1:31:45

ran a business called Elevate Outdoors here

1:31:47

in Moab. And I guided

1:31:49

almost all men. It was so fascinating

1:31:51

because I've been targeting women,

1:31:54

right? Like, there's not very many

1:31:56

female guides. Like, if you hire me, you're guaranteed to

1:31:58

have a female guide. But I repeatedly would. guiding

1:32:00

men. And it was cool

1:32:02

in the sense that like, this is a neat

1:32:04

power dynamic. I like that a woman is in

1:32:06

this role. But damn

1:32:08

it, why am I guiding so many men? Why

1:32:11

aren't there more women interested in these things? So

1:32:15

and as someone who's ran a women's highline meeting

1:32:17

for 14 years, you know,

1:32:19

I've sort of had a bit of insight into the growth

1:32:22

of women in the sport. And yes, the numbers have

1:32:24

grown, but we're far from equal. It's still probably 10

1:32:27

to one. My wife on a regular basis,

1:32:29

and it's a balanced sport. And it's a balanced sport.

1:32:31

How about it? Yeah. My wife on

1:32:33

a regular basis. She's Latina. And she

1:32:35

says, Look, if you she, she's

1:32:37

very clear on the pay scale in the

1:32:39

US, she goes, I'm at the bottom. You

1:32:44

know, and then and then she's also very

1:32:48

clear about some states in

1:32:50

the union have decided what what

1:32:52

women can do and cannot do with their body. And

1:32:55

she's like, I don't know what we're doing. Like

1:32:57

that feels like a like a radical step

1:32:59

back. And do you have that same position

1:33:01

or? Yes.

1:33:05

The fact that my body is on a ballot shows

1:33:08

you how much inequality we still have.

1:33:11

No, and I feel the same about

1:33:14

LGBTQ rights, like nobody's body should be

1:33:16

on a ballot. No group

1:33:18

of men, but no group of people

1:33:20

should be making decisions about other people's

1:33:23

bodies as a political

1:33:25

move. Like I think that's

1:33:27

just wild. So yeah,

1:33:30

I've never heard it said that way. So that's a new thought

1:33:32

for me is that body should not

1:33:34

be on a ballot. What helped me understand that a

1:33:36

little bit more. I mean,

1:33:38

can you imagine if people

1:33:40

you didn't even know were making

1:33:43

laws in a far away

1:33:45

place about what you could do with your

1:33:47

body? No, no, no, I'm completely down with you. But

1:33:49

so the fact that that

1:33:51

it's on a ballot is what you're saying

1:33:53

is like, we're so far, we're so far

1:33:56

off that it's actually made its way

1:33:58

to a ballot. Yeah, but

1:34:00

it's a bit, but our bodies have been on

1:34:02

balance for a long time. Like what

1:34:05

we do with our bodies has been a part

1:34:08

of politics for a long time. And to me,

1:34:10

that shows how archaic and old fashioned we are.

1:34:13

The fact that we don't have full autonomy

1:34:15

over our own bodies. What

1:34:17

are your, um, how are you contributing to

1:34:19

the solution? Like what are

1:34:21

the ways that you are? You're

1:34:24

very active here. So I, and

1:34:26

I didn't mean that to come off in a weird way. Like

1:34:28

I earnestly want

1:34:30

to understand the actions you're taking. No,

1:34:33

I'm happy to talk about it. Um, when Roe v.

1:34:35

Wade was overturned, I live in a rural town in

1:34:37

Utah. Um, and there's no abortion

1:34:39

access here directly. Um, fortunately there

1:34:42

is still abortion access in Salt Lake City,

1:34:44

but it's, uh, you know, they're trying to

1:34:46

overturn it. The legislatures are. So

1:34:48

I helped, uh, found a

1:34:50

group called Moab Abortion and

1:34:52

Reproductive Rights Network, and

1:34:55

we've been doing various fundraisers, um,

1:34:57

and just sort of spreading awareness about

1:34:59

the current legal situation

1:35:02

with abortion in Utah and also

1:35:04

distributing information on where people can

1:35:06

still access abortion resources. Um,

1:35:09

we mostly are doing

1:35:11

fundraisers and then funneling the funds to the

1:35:14

Utah Abortion Fund, which

1:35:16

is an already established group that

1:35:18

directly like pays

1:35:20

for people to access abortions. So

1:35:22

we weren't trying to reinvent that type of

1:35:24

organization, but we wanted to take some sort

1:35:26

of action. And so fundraising and giving them

1:35:28

funds has been what we've found to

1:35:31

be the most effective. And they often send

1:35:33

us really great reproductive care kits, which we

1:35:35

distribute into the community, which has like plan

1:35:37

B in it and condoms and Moob and

1:35:40

just pamphlets about abortion access. Um,

1:35:43

so that's what I'm doing. Aside

1:35:45

from the very, uh, paltry, but

1:35:48

still necessary blasting on social media.

1:35:51

I want to encourage people to go check out your

1:35:53

social platform. Um, one is like,

1:35:56

it's just that the images are awesome.

1:35:58

And so your, your. Your platform

1:36:00

and your experiences are so rich and I want

1:36:03

to circle back. You said almost everyone I know or

1:36:05

almost all the women I know, actually

1:36:09

according to the National Sexual Violence Resource Center,

1:36:12

which is an online source that you can check out, 81% of

1:36:15

women experience some

1:36:18

sort of sexual harassment and or assault in

1:36:20

their lifetime. So they're collapsing

1:36:22

harassment and assault. Faith, what a

1:36:24

fun conversation. Thank you. A nice

1:36:26

sobering moment at the end about

1:36:29

the reality of a different type of consequence. And

1:36:32

thank you for working from the inside

1:36:34

out, being able to teach and

1:36:36

share how you've become you and

1:36:39

what you're working on even further. So

1:36:42

I just want to say thank you. Thank

1:36:44

you. I would love to tell people about

1:36:46

my guiding business if they want to try

1:36:48

highly. Oh yeah. With a leash and a

1:36:50

heart. Let's go. Where are we taking people?

1:36:54

So I have a business called Elevate Outdoors

1:36:57

Guiding here in Moab, Utah and it's the

1:36:59

first Highline Guiding business in the entire nation.

1:37:01

I'm really proud of it. No

1:37:03

one is guiding Highline except for me. And

1:37:06

I've designed a system with an overhead rope

1:37:09

as well as a Highline that enables people

1:37:11

with no slackline experience to walk out into

1:37:13

the void. So Mike, I expect

1:37:15

you to come do it. I'm loving this. It's

1:37:18

incredible. It's in Moab. It's in

1:37:20

Moab, Utah. Most recently, I

1:37:23

was really honored to donate a Highline session

1:37:25

to a bunch of veterans for a group

1:37:27

called 22 Jumps. I don't know

1:37:30

if you've heard of them, but they're kind

1:37:32

of a skydiving, base jumping group that

1:37:34

does fundraisers for veterans. So it was really

1:37:36

powerful to work with a group of guys

1:37:39

who are all veterans and just have their

1:37:42

own fucked up relationships to

1:37:44

fear. And we're able to

1:37:46

kind of experience it in a different

1:37:48

way, in a healthy way, in a way that

1:37:51

they sought out. I'm just

1:37:53

so excited about the potential of taking

1:37:55

people on Highlines and

1:37:57

what it can help people experience in regards to the

1:37:59

future. regarding their own fear and

1:38:01

their own mind and how

1:38:04

they've navigated fear historically. I think I'm gonna take

1:38:06

you up on this. So I'm very passionate about it.

1:38:08

Please do. For real,

1:38:11

so two part question. Do you work

1:38:13

with teams? It'd be fun to have the whole Finding Master team

1:38:15

come out and do some work with you. Is

1:38:18

it team-based? Absolutely. Okay. It

1:38:20

can be, yes. And if it's individual-based,

1:38:23

what is the average price range that I'm thinking about or

1:38:27

anybody to come out? The rate

1:38:29

kind of changes depending on how big the group is.

1:38:32

So it's a day and a half of work for me because I have

1:38:34

to set up the day before because there's a lot of equipment. However,

1:38:37

if it's three or more people, it's 450 a person, but

1:38:41

that includes almost a whole day out there

1:38:43

and usually walking the line more than one

1:38:45

time. Great. And so it's very

1:38:47

reasonable. We get ourselves there, a hotel

1:38:49

or camping. Is it one or the

1:38:51

other? Is it a choice? Yeah, you can

1:38:53

camp or there's a lot of

1:38:56

different hotels Moab, it's a tourist

1:38:58

town. There's Airbnb's as well.

1:39:01

And then, yeah, it's easiest to rent a

1:39:03

car here. It's much easier

1:39:05

if you have your own transportation. I

1:39:07

can transport up to four people in

1:39:10

my work vehicle, but usually people

1:39:12

transport themselves. Faith, we just might see

1:39:14

you in 2024 in Utah. I

1:39:18

hope so. Starting in spring is a

1:39:21

great time to come. I'm fired up

1:39:23

about it and I wanna encourage our community to go

1:39:25

check it out. And it'd be really fun to have,

1:39:29

it'd be great if our community

1:39:32

stood up and said, I wanna go test my limits.

1:39:34

I wanna go get into that uncomfortable state. I wanna

1:39:36

figure out how my mind works under fear. And

1:39:39

it'd be great if Finding Master Community kind of

1:39:41

booked you out for the entire 2024. How

1:39:44

about it? I would love it. Yes. It

1:39:47

sounds like my target audience. Yes. So

1:39:49

it's like, I want people who are curious about

1:39:51

fear and want to experience it

1:39:53

and navigate it and have a healthy

1:39:55

relationship to it. Is this

1:39:57

one more time your website? is?

1:40:01

elevateoutdoorsguiding.com. There we

1:40:04

go. Faith, I

1:40:06

really appreciate you, how you show up

1:40:08

in the world, and I'm excited that you shared

1:40:10

your insights and wisdom with us today. Yeah,

1:40:14

I hope we have enough. Yeah, very good.

1:40:17

All right, I wish you all the best. Thank

1:40:20

you. Thanks, Meg. All

1:40:29

right. Thank you so much for diving into another

1:40:31

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1:40:33

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in this podcast and from any material on

1:41:46

the Finding Mastery website and social channels is

1:41:49

for information purposes only. If

1:41:51

you're looking for meaningful support,

1:41:54

which we all need, one of

1:41:56

the best things you can do is to talk to a

1:41:58

licensed professional. So seek a safe, assistance from

1:42:00

your healthcare providers. Again, a

1:42:03

sincere thank you for listening. Until

1:42:06

next episode, be well, think

1:42:08

well, and keep exploring.