0:04

Welcome back to episode 39 of

0:06

First Principles. A few weeks

0:08

ago, you heard the first part of

0:10

my conversation with Anish Reddy, the CEO

0:13

and co-founder of Capillary Tech, a software

0:15

company offering products and services in the

0:17

customer experience space. And you

0:19

might remember that in that episode,

0:22

Anish took me through the journey

0:24

of capillary in installments because, as

0:26

he explained, Anish dreams in installments.

0:28

The second installment were the years

0:30

2013 to 2018, which

0:33

Anish called capillaries confusing years.

0:36

They were particularly difficult years for them. Having

0:39

raised a massive amount of venture funding at

0:41

an expensive valuation, capillaries started burning

0:43

cash as they expanded ambitiously

0:46

beyond India. The

0:48

leadership had to justify the valuation,

0:50

Anish said. The five years were

0:52

an installment of success and

0:54

excess. During this time,

0:56

Anish's co-founder Krishna Mehra or KK

0:58

had moved to San Francisco in

1:00

the US. Communication between

1:03

the co-founders started breaking down even

1:05

as the pressure on capillary started

1:07

mounting. Eventually, both of

1:10

Anish's co-founders left within months of

1:12

each other. But before leaving, KK

1:14

was upfront with Anish. He

1:17

felt that I had kind of become a bully. I

1:20

think KK at least half

1:22

of it he left for the fact that I think I

1:24

was not workable with him at that point in time. Anish

1:28

went to the capillary board and told them he

1:30

wanted to quit. In the

1:32

first part of my conversation with Anish, you heard this

1:34

story. And in this second part,

1:36

you'll hear the two things that Anish

1:38

ended up doing to bounce back. The

1:41

first was executive coaching. And

1:44

I was a hard nut to crack. So I think my

1:46

exec coach had to take that extra effort

1:48

to really say, no, no, no, no,

1:50

people have actually said this about you. Right?

1:54

So it was pretty bad. So halfway through

1:57

the process, I was like, I didn't sign.

2:00

enough for all this. Eventually

2:02

the coaching process proved to be

2:04

so transformative for Anish that Capillary

2:06

today offers executive coaching to not

2:08

just its entire leadership team but

2:10

also all the way down to

2:12

first-time managers. The second

2:15

very interestingly was Vipassana.

2:18

It's a kind of meditation where

2:20

you're asked to observe yourself, you're

2:22

breathing, the sensations on your body,

2:24

your thoughts. Anish

2:26

attended a 10-day Vipassana camp on the

2:29

recommendation of a friend. For 10 days

2:31

you're allowed no distractions. You can't bring

2:33

devices, any books or even a piece

2:35

of paper. You're not even allowed to

2:38

talk to anyone and as

2:40

Anish explained it was very difficult at first

2:43

but it changed him. I

2:45

think if you're an entrepreneur, you know I

2:47

think entrepreneurship is a... I've

2:49

been very lucky as an entrepreneur. I think it's

2:52

a journey of self-discovery and

2:55

self-purification more than anything else. Especially

2:58

if you run something of 15 years, I think you... there's

3:01

no way you wouldn't have gone through

3:03

bad cycles or tough times and

3:06

a Vipassana in the middle I think just

3:08

accelerates that process of self-discovery

3:10

and purification a lot more.

3:13

Again Anish drew so much from

3:15

this process that employees of capillary

3:18

are allowed to go on a

3:20

10-day or 11-day Vipassana camp over

3:23

and above their annual paid leave.

3:26

In this episode Anish talks to me

3:28

about how these two interventions transformed him

3:30

and capillary. He takes me through

3:32

both processes day by day in case

3:35

of Vipassana and how it made a

3:37

difference to his temperament, leadership style and

3:39

his approach to managing. We

3:42

also talk about Anish's fitness journey,

3:44

finding a purpose in work and

3:47

the future of capillary. I think this

3:49

episode might be one of the most

3:51

reflective and in-depth conversations I've had on

3:54

first principles. I can't wait for you to

3:56

hear it. I

4:12

think I'm going

4:15

to take

4:18

you back

4:21

to the

4:24

part earlier

4:27

where I was talking about the part

4:29

earlier where your co-founders left.

4:32

I think KK called you a bully.

4:34

I think around that time

4:36

if I'm not mistaken you also went to the board

4:38

and said that's it I'm done I want to quit

4:41

and your board members said I think

4:43

you said it was Venkat. Was that

4:45

no relax you need

4:47

some executive coaching. Take

4:50

us back to that. Tell us about I mean

4:53

I'm sure at that

4:55

point you would have never explicitly or

4:58

consciously have thought of executive coaching. Few

5:00

founders have especially if they've kind of

5:03

grown businesses through

5:05

the trenches themselves right.

5:07

What was your initial reaction and what

5:09

was the journey subsequently for you. You

5:13

know obviously it came at

5:15

a point when I was

5:18

very surprised right that someone

5:22

and KK was a wingmate of me

5:24

in Nikon campus. So the relationship friendships

5:26

and years plus. We've

5:30

done many things together. Capillary was not

5:32

necessarily our first startup. I mean the

5:34

ESL was our first startup between him

5:36

and me. Capillary was the second. So

5:39

that coming from him obviously shook me up. You

5:44

know and when a co-founder is leaving in

5:46

a super overvalued company it is

5:49

a different ballgame altogether.

5:52

So you will have Miffed investors.

5:54

You will have people who will

5:56

feel that they've been taken for a ride. You

5:59

have all that going. going on the

6:01

side as well. And

6:03

we had all that obviously. And

6:08

when was it that your second co-founder

6:10

also left? Or was it around this

6:12

time or later? They left between about

6:14

two, three months of each other. Yeah.

6:16

So I can imagine the investor pressure

6:19

on you. And even if the investors

6:21

didn't transmit that pressure, you as a

6:23

founder would kind

6:26

of imagine up that pressure, right? This is what

6:28

they must be thinking of me, etc. And stuff

6:30

like that. But again, like back to

6:32

you. Yeah. I mean, look, and

6:34

KK was also a brilliant guy, right?

6:36

So the company always had two faces.

6:40

It was KK and me. And in

6:42

fact, even if you look at

6:44

the fundraise, various from two, KK

6:47

managed one, I would manage the other. So

6:49

right. So when KK decided to move this,

6:52

this other obviously finally, look,

6:54

oh, God, what's happening here? Right. So

6:56

it was just, so

6:59

when, and then obviously, you

7:01

know, so I did get beaten

7:04

up a little bit both by myself

7:06

and people around and saying,

7:08

dude, KK is real. Right. So when

7:12

KK suggested this exact coaching thing, I was

7:14

like, yeah, for sure. You know, I

7:17

think you need to be vulnerable at the point when

7:19

you get into a exact

7:21

coaching engagement. If you

7:23

know, it's like this, right? I think most founders

7:26

have like three layers outside

7:29

and deep inside as this secure,

7:32

lonely founder, right? Actually, I'm

7:34

just quoting something that someone's

7:37

told me here. Right. So

7:41

and so you need to be vulnerable to

7:43

let that guy inside come out. Right. And

7:45

those three shields should have been cracked to

7:47

some extent for you to feel that I

7:49

need help. Very large extent. Right. So and

7:52

the exact coaching process, especially if you get a good

7:55

coach is, is,

7:57

is kind of like they break you down

7:59

before you back you

8:01

know so they're door 360 and you'll

8:03

hear all kinds of stuff being spoken

8:05

about you and

8:08

I was a hard nut to crack so I think my

8:10

exec coach had to take that extra effort

8:12

to really say no no no no people

8:14

have actually said this about you right

8:17

so so it

8:19

was pretty bad you know so it's

8:21

half way through the process I was

8:23

like you know I didn't sign up

8:25

for all this right so luckily

8:28

I think you know as

8:30

I mean

8:33

as I went to the coaching foundation of

8:35

India for coaching and

8:39

and he had broken this problem down to

8:41

me saying only three behaviors to change and

8:44

in those three behaviors here are the five things

8:46

you will do right

8:48

so like one the bully thing was

8:50

basically you know saying let people

8:53

speak first you'll be the last to speak in

8:55

a meeting simple rule right so when you're getting

8:57

into a meeting you're gonna start that meeting with

8:59

saying here is what we should do right

9:02

way to do it is let everyone speak at the

9:04

end you give you a view that is still

9:06

fine but you know so stuff like

9:08

that right so very simple so I think

9:10

the process was a easy one right so once

9:12

I believed that look yeah this is

9:15

all people who are my close friends there's no politics

9:17

here and they are

9:19

telling me that look like look

9:21

you need to change here are the things so I think there

9:23

was enough of acceptance on saying

9:25

key high need to change once

9:28

there is acceptance I think the exact coaching process

9:30

works right so and

9:32

I believe now like

9:34

we have a very active exact coaching thing

9:36

in capillary like all the leadership

9:39

team was to ALI the

9:41

Asian leadership Institute they're really good then

9:44

everyone who's the first time manager gets a coach

9:47

like a proper exact coach from outside

9:50

so I think we've at least had 50 60

9:52

people go through coaching

9:54

as a how long has this been going on

9:57

I think almost for last for five years now

10:00

Even through COVID we didn't cut the exact

10:02

coaching. And this must be a significant expense. So

10:05

we've now found coaches who don't charge a lot.

10:09

So it's almost

10:11

like the exact coaching

10:14

of course, I mean the ALI thing is expensive. Which

10:16

is why it's restricted to only the

10:20

top leadership team like 10-12 people at

10:22

MAX. Then

10:25

we have the LT-1 and all first

10:28

time managers. Which in a year

10:30

will be like 30-40 people. So it

10:32

will be about a crore, crore and a half of expense in

10:34

a year. It's very worth it. Because then

10:37

people stay with you for that much longer. I

10:39

think it's a no brainer investment. Why

10:42

do you think exact

10:46

coaching helps so much? Yeah,

10:50

I think... And the context for that

10:52

is, in organizations

10:55

where it does not exist, you

10:57

would assume that, hey your manager

10:59

or your peers or your HR

11:01

etc. are filling

11:03

in to provide the mentorship, guidance etc. that's

11:05

required for you to grow in Excel. Right?

11:09

Now, as opposed to another organization where there

11:11

is this other individual who is

11:13

not from your organization but

11:15

who is working with you to make

11:17

it better. Why do you think this works

11:20

better? I think first there

11:22

is a neutrality. Right? I

11:24

mean if I were to

11:26

get, let's say the

11:29

HR example you gave, right? Usually

11:31

what would happen? Someone would have said

11:33

something about you and then HR would have got

11:35

involved and said, I want to do a 360 for you.

11:38

Right? And now you are

11:41

anyway, as an employee getting into that situation with

11:43

saying biased HR, they

11:45

have a, you know, knocked

11:48

that off by saying, look, meet 10 people,

11:50

you choose your exact coach. You

11:52

go pick someone with whom you have chemistry.

11:55

Right? And that guy's only intent here is

11:57

to make you a better person.

12:00

better person and as a

12:02

process as a net outcome of that also make

12:04

capillary better. Right. So I think

12:06

the start point is very different. Right. The

12:09

second thing I realized is the exercises we

12:11

have are all trained

12:13

senior folks. You

12:16

know, so and

12:18

they follow a process. There's a method to

12:20

that madness, which I have

12:23

not seen in like, you

12:25

know, if how many your manager is

12:27

never going to be like can

12:29

never be your exact coach. Some might be,

12:32

but there is a deep method and

12:34

madness to this. Right. I

12:36

mean, and it's a lot of work. I mean, it's

12:38

not. Yeah.

12:41

So I and even in

12:44

spite of all this, I think we've seen exact

12:46

coaching work in 80 percent

12:48

of the cases. We've not seen it work in 20

12:50

hours. And usually the thing is, is

12:52

the individual vulnerable or not? Right.

12:56

I think earlier you were talking about the three things

12:58

that your exact coach told you. Right. The

13:01

first one was like resolving the bully

13:03

behavior by letting others speak. What were the

13:05

other two? Are they confidential or? Yeah,

13:07

I actually don't remember them now. I've

13:10

been in the question differently. I actually

13:12

had another. I

13:15

think you should go. I

13:17

did another exact coaching engagement again

13:19

in 2021. I

13:21

think it's a good idea to do it every six,

13:24

seven, eight years or four, five years. Right.

13:27

Because this time, of course, there was no bully

13:29

behavior and such types of stuff.

13:31

But there was no stuff. You know,

13:33

I think I was working on. So

13:36

you personally do it as an interventional thing

13:38

every few years, not as an ongoing thing.

13:41

Yeah. Not as an ongoing thing. Yeah. So

13:44

it's not a business coach. It is more a

13:47

behavior coach and leadership coach.

13:51

What was your lead? How would

13:53

you define your leadership style before

13:56

you did your first executive

13:59

coaching? intervention and

14:01

after. I

14:06

think before yeah

14:08

so I've been I've

14:11

been lucky to have

14:15

a very fast mind which is

14:17

what a lot of people around

14:19

me at least say what your dad told

14:21

you as well right yeah so and so

14:23

the earlier me would be this arrive

14:26

at a conclusion very quickly and like

14:29

tell people that do this it's

14:32

also the engineering mindset right the solution

14:34

like you know let's what's the quickest

14:36

path to an efficient solution

14:39

right anything else is a waste of time I

14:42

think today I think that that's changed quite

14:44

a bit to you still

14:46

get to the solution you can't stop your mind right

14:48

you still get to the solution right

14:50

me approach now has been to say ask

14:53

questions which help them get to the same

14:55

solution or get to a better solution right

14:57

so that's the change that's the

14:59

piece of saying go last in a meeting and don't

15:03

be the first to talk in a meeting be the last

15:05

especially as a founder if you are the first one to

15:07

speak in a meeting it a

15:10

biases everyone towards your solution

15:13

and be at especially in like you know

15:15

startups and organizations and why should I speak

15:17

the solution is already known and like you

15:19

know absolutely you know and the second is

15:21

I think culturally now a lot of

15:23

the org knows that you can say no

15:25

to a niche and you know it'll still

15:27

be fine right and I think

15:30

we've also we also have this very

15:32

open culture of talking about failures you

15:35

know so and you know so

15:37

when folks know that okay he I mean there is

15:39

acceptance and failures on his part then

15:41

there will be that much open about saying I think you're

15:43

thinking wrong about this or pointing

15:46

to you and saying you did the same thing three years ago and

15:49

it got messed up right so sticking

15:52

with the same team how have

15:55

you changed in the way you manage

15:57

people right

16:00

I think till 2013-14, right? Look,

16:05

before that, I

16:07

was a manager at ITC as well, but

16:10

I used to run maintenance in a secret factory. Very

16:13

different, right? The team that reported to me was

16:15

a unionized team. So very

16:18

different from managing, you know, high-quality

16:22

talent and stuff like that. The

16:25

other thing that we started in 2013-14 was, till

16:28

then I would never do these one-on-ones, because you were

16:30

living in the same house. So,

16:33

what one-on-one, right? So you will just

16:35

chat wherever you're going, you're only talking

16:37

business anyways. So now I think

16:39

I have a far more, like, very, this

16:41

is the learning from, like, the three founders

16:43

staying in three different parts of the world,

16:45

right? That one-on-ones

16:47

are extremely critical. And

16:50

this one-on-one is not this random call you just said,

16:52

but, like, a slotted half an hour, 30

16:57

minutes in your calendar, every

17:00

week, like, you know,

17:02

where you actually have a...

17:04

The present. Where you're present, where

17:06

you have a clean agenda saying, look, where

17:08

can I help, where can I not? It's

17:10

not your 10-minute chat to fix the problem,

17:12

right? It's... And in fact,

17:14

now, you know, in the last Exec coaching,

17:16

I just want to... I now have a

17:18

format of how to run each

17:21

one-on-one. Once a quarter, it's

17:23

done very differently from the every week

17:25

one. So, some of that structure, I

17:28

think, has really helped. We, in

17:30

fact, now have a very formal skip level process

17:33

in the company as well, where I do about

17:35

60, 65 skip levels every

17:37

six months. You

17:40

know, so, again, very... I

17:42

think some of that, I

17:44

think, as a management style helps, because

17:46

then, you know, you're not

17:48

taking things for granted that things are

17:50

not getting communicated, right? So...

17:54

People will come to you, right? When you have some of this, I think... That's

17:57

been one... I think we've always been a cultural...

18:00

care. So that's

18:02

not changed whether it was before or now. Is

18:05

there anything that you changed your

18:07

mind about when it comes to

18:11

managing people? I

18:15

do think, you

18:18

know, I am an impatient guy so

18:20

I would have this thing of following

18:24

up. I think

18:26

it's a very common founder thing also, you tend

18:28

to follow up a lot. I

18:30

think over the last five, six years I've brought

18:32

that down to saying I will follow up only

18:34

in the one-on-one. You know, so on

18:37

my phone I have a list of things whenever

18:39

I feel like following up, I add an item

18:42

to that individual's name saying, next

18:45

let's follow up, let's not call him now. Because

18:49

what happens is when you call up someone

18:51

out of the middle, they change their priority

18:53

order for you and it just messes the

18:55

whole thing up. So that's one

18:57

change, like basically taking care of my own

19:00

follow-up thing in a more

19:02

structured, organized

19:04

way. The

19:06

second is this, that I

19:09

think again coming to the impatience, there

19:11

was this big belief that get

19:14

everything done in this quarter. I

19:17

think thankfully that's not the case with me now. I think

19:19

I've really run the company

19:21

into very wrong places by trying to do

19:24

many things at the same time. I

19:26

do think building something

19:29

best in class, building something

19:32

good takes time. So

19:34

spreading things out over a period of time. That's

19:37

the other change. I think from

19:39

being the guy who would say let's do all the ten

19:41

things that are on the sheet to saying, no, no, pick

19:43

two and pushing that down, I think

19:45

that's the change in leadership styles as

19:47

well. Then there is value

19:49

in doing less and doing it well.

19:51

Yeah, I'd say these two are the big changes if

19:54

you really ask me over the last five,

19:56

ten years. Vipassana is

19:58

a big thing for you. and

20:01

you said earlier that you encourage employees

20:03

to take, you

20:05

give them extra leave if they want to take like

20:07

a 10 day 11 day Vipassana break as well. Take

20:10

us through I mean what was your first Vipassana like

20:12

2020 right? I mean you went

20:16

into it in a very

20:18

stressed mindset but what

20:20

was the first what was it 11 days?

20:22

10 days? 10 days is 1 plus

20:25

10 plus 1. So what were those 10 days like? You

20:32

know so I think I

20:34

was 35 when I did my first

20:37

Vipassana so and

20:39

my 35 especially if

20:42

you've been meaningfully successful right your

20:44

mind has built its

20:46

own habit patterns right I mean it will

20:49

judge a few things it

20:51

will like it

20:54

will react a certain way to a

20:56

certain things right so and

20:59

I had some of these very constant habit

21:01

patterns right a lot of negativity

21:03

on you know where I had gone gapillary to

21:06

some things on the personal side like like

21:09

I have always had a very angry relationship

21:12

with my mother and I think

21:14

it's very common most people have a very angry relationship

21:17

with their mother but you know and

21:19

she's also this high

21:23

follow-up you know always

21:25

wants to be in control lady

21:28

right I mean so things

21:30

like that right so there would be a few things which

21:32

were definite landmines right so the

21:34

third thing was this which was for

21:37

a long time I think in that 2013 to

21:40

18 timeframe you

21:42

know you would see people raising these billions of

21:44

dollars this and you know it would hit you

21:46

right I mean it takes you I think now

21:48

I don't actually but at

21:50

that point in time it would hit you right

21:52

so there was one of these very

21:55

standard patterns that

21:57

you would you

21:59

know like things like when a

22:02

senior employee left, there

22:05

was five or six or seven trigger points,

22:07

which one of those happened, then you would

22:09

have your set way of going

22:11

through the rest of it, which would just be a

22:14

lot of suffering, a lot of pain, a lot of

22:16

blame, a lot of shoving, all that stuff. So

22:20

what happens in a Vipassana is essentially

22:24

you're trying to uncondition yourself from

22:26

all these conditionings. So

22:29

the first three days, three and a half days, you

22:31

basically just look at your breath. So

22:34

you sit for cross-legged on a cushion

22:37

for roughly 10 hours a day, starts in the morning

22:39

at 4.30, and

22:42

till the evening nine, it's

22:45

one-one hour slots. So

22:47

you sit for 10 hours a day. So

22:49

the first three and a half days is just breath.

22:51

So all you're trying to do is stop

22:54

your mind from wondering. So if I'm

22:56

focusing on the breath. So basically try

22:58

and break those habit patterns. So the

23:01

first thing- And how hard was it? Yeah,

23:05

I think I would, I'd

23:08

lie if I said that it was very easy. It

23:11

was hard, obviously. I

23:14

think you, like

23:18

sitting cross-legged, you

23:20

don't talk to anyone, which I think is the easiest part

23:22

there. Most people freak out when you say that, 10 days

23:24

you can't talk to anyone, but the easiest

23:27

part of the past is not talking to anyone. I

23:32

think what also happens is, look, you've

23:34

never given yourselves 10 days with yourself.

23:37

So a lot of your extremely deep,

23:42

like if you're in a meeting and this thought

23:44

of your missed capillary comes up, in either five

23:46

minutes someone's gonna say something, you want to reply,

23:48

you're done. So this thought is gone.

23:51

But here you're sitting with that thought for that

23:53

full hour, unless you

23:56

get to that moment when you pull yourself back and say,

23:58

I was not supposed to think. about that I'm supposed to

24:01

be like looking at my breath. So it is hard, right? I

24:03

mean, I've

24:09

seen, I've seen, I

24:11

mean, even I've had my own moments

24:13

and I broke down, right? So I've

24:15

seen people in the room break down

24:18

as well. It is

24:20

hard, right? So it's definitely not.

24:24

But the good piece is look at the end of the three

24:26

and a half, four days, you I think get to

24:28

a 50, 60% cleaner mind,

24:31

right? Because the same anxieties you

24:33

have or the same worries you have

24:35

or the same, you know,

24:37

thought patterns you have, they would have diminished like

24:39

greatly because they would have come to you a

24:42

hundred times and then after

24:44

some time you would have gone back to your breath on

24:46

each of those hundred times, right? So essentially making that, that,

24:49

that tweak in some senses,

24:51

right? So then the next three,

24:53

four days you're

24:56

supposed to look at sensations on your body, right?

24:59

So and I

25:02

think the first by the fifth or

25:04

sixth day, your knees are going to be in like 10 X

25:07

the pain, right? Because you're not

25:09

habituated or sitting cross-legged and

25:13

somewhere on the day four, they introduce this

25:15

thing of don't move for an hour, three

25:17

times a day, the full hour, don't

25:20

move till then you can move, you can do whatever you

25:22

want to do, right? So and

25:24

so essentially what you're being accustomed to

25:26

is to say that pain is inevitable,

25:29

but suffering is optional, right?

25:32

So you kind of trying to build this resilience

25:34

to saying, look, I mean,

25:37

you don't control what's being thrown at you while

25:39

you don't control what's being thrown to you by

25:41

life or even your own thoughts, right? When you

25:43

don't control your own thoughts. So

25:46

that was the other thing. So the

25:48

next three days was really this building

25:51

resistance to pain. So I think somewhere on the

25:54

eighth day, I could sit for, I

25:56

should need to sit for an hour without

25:58

moving. I think I ended up sitting for an hour and a

26:00

half. So you, I

26:03

think it's an, and then you have this

26:05

discourse every evening, you know,

26:08

where, in a very self-deprecating

26:10

way, which I'm deprecating as in, you

26:12

know, Sengoyanka, whose videos

26:14

are played and whose

26:16

gives the instructions. In a very

26:19

self-deprecating way, he will talk about things which you

26:21

will associate with. Self-deprecating with him, not

26:23

for you. But, and

26:25

that's a good way to also realize that look,

26:27

I think it's, yeah, it

26:29

was, it was transformative, right? Those 10 days was, I

26:34

thought, I was amazed at how much

26:37

I changed in those 10 days. The

26:39

first thing I did was I called my Anantap

26:42

and said, look, I think we should make this open

26:46

to everyone. And his first reaction

26:48

was, I don't think anything has changed. You stand

26:50

up and I put these ideas. And

26:54

then finally he went for a Vipassana, like

26:56

six, seven months later, he came back and said, yeah, I

26:58

think we should make it for everyone. But

27:02

it is a, I

27:04

think if you're an entrepreneur, you know, I

27:06

think entrepreneurship is a, I've

27:08

been very lucky as an entrepreneur, right? I think

27:11

it's a journey of self-discovery

27:13

and self-purification, more than anything

27:15

else. Especially if you've run

27:17

something of 15 years, I think you, there's

27:20

no way you wouldn't have gone through

27:22

bad cycles or tough names. And

27:26

I think it is a

27:28

journey of self-discovery and self-purification, right? So,

27:31

and a Vipassana in the middle, I think,

27:33

just accelerates that process of self-discovery

27:36

and purification a lot more.

27:39

You said earlier that like, you know, beyond

27:41

a certain amount of wealth, it really makes

27:43

no difference. And you've gone through your own

27:46

ups and downs as well. So today, what

27:48

really drives you to

27:51

wake up every day, to come to

27:53

work every week, to continue to strive? What drives

27:55

you? You know, I think even

27:57

when we started, right? When we

27:59

started, billion dollar valuations, all this

28:01

is not there, it was 2008 and

28:04

the people you looked up towards the

28:06

Narayan Murthy's, right, extremely simply rest and

28:09

very high principles and in feel

28:11

like cultures, right. So

28:13

the start point of Kapilini was also always

28:16

saying let's build a great organization, a

28:18

good culture organization I think was far

28:21

more than the side

28:23

of, so that is still something

28:26

I think we are on a journey of, right. So

28:29

I do think like in

28:31

Kapilini we one

28:33

stated goal for the company, like

28:36

our purpose statement is we are

28:38

here to help brands build meaningful,

28:41

delightful experiences with

28:43

their customers and to help our

28:46

team build like meaningful

28:48

lives, right. So a meaningful

28:50

I mean this whole

28:53

Vipassana experience for me was saying

28:55

look there are more dimensions to life than just money,

28:58

right and happiness is definitely got

29:01

to do a lot more with you but

29:03

what you are inside and what you

29:06

are feeling inside than what is happening

29:08

outside, right. So in

29:10

Kapilini we now have a inner

29:12

peace initiative where about a hundred folks have

29:14

done a one day retreat which either I

29:16

run or run on runs or funny

29:19

from red bars, experimenting with

29:21

stuff we do believe that companies

29:24

need not be only about your job and

29:26

about the money you make I think it

29:28

can be a lot more holistic in

29:31

that sense. So that's the arc part,

29:33

right. I definitely think there is a

29:36

lot more figuring to do on that part and we spend

29:38

significant time on that side.

29:43

That keeps me driven, I think this is

29:45

an unsolved problem which very

29:48

few orgs have looked at that way, right. The

29:52

second of course I think is I have

29:55

been told so many times that you can't build

29:57

product companies out of India that

29:59

there is this thing. in me or in

30:01

the company to say look we have

30:03

to go out and build the

30:05

best product company in our space

30:09

and that's a few things right. I mean that's beyond

30:12

just the best product it's also about having

30:15

the best companies in the world work for you. You

30:17

have a significant share of the

30:19

fortune 500 for example you

30:23

know our do all analyst to everyone

30:25

say look this is the best product so a bunch

30:27

of that stuff right so that's the other thing that

30:30

keeps us you know

30:33

motivated. Do

30:37

you have any favorite mental models are you

30:39

do you use a tend to use a lot

30:41

of mental models in your decision making or

30:43

what's your management style when it comes to

30:45

decision making. You know

30:47

I think a few mental models

30:50

yes obviously I

30:52

think context is king is

30:55

the first thing so I

30:58

think you could be very

31:00

smart about your decisions or

31:02

you could have very smart people taking decisions but if they

31:05

don't have the right context then it is it's

31:08

not going to work right so. So

31:11

luckily in capillary we've had people stay for a

31:13

long if I now have this mental model that

31:16

if someone's not been in the company for the

31:19

real value add of people actually starts in

31:21

year three so I really don't

31:23

know how startups with two

31:25

year life cycles of employees like

31:27

build great businesses for the future

31:30

because you I mean until

31:32

you've made some mistakes you've been through the

31:34

hard times together I don't think the

31:37

bonding happens in a business right so the

31:39

next time you actually want to go through a hard time you

31:41

will have all the folks who have not seen

31:44

this forming happen really stay with

31:46

you right so

31:49

this context piece so before we decide anything I think

31:51

we do take a lot of time on figuring

31:54

context which is speaking to internally

31:57

externally like anything we do now

31:59

I speak to like another 10

32:01

start-up saying guys like what

32:03

did you guys do what were which situation were you

32:06

in at that point in time as well right.

32:08

So the

32:10

other mental model is of course that this

32:13

whole this is a personal thing is of course put

32:16

me on a on a

32:18

different journey of spirituality and

32:20

some of that purpose

32:22

has been one question I've always asked myself

32:24

right. So whether it

32:26

was ITC whether it was MIT any of

32:28

those calls always had this question of you

32:31

know what's your purpose

32:33

in life in some senses and I

32:37

think one mental model that's there now comes

32:40

from a little bit of Advaita

32:42

a little bit of Buddhism is I

32:45

think what has to happen is going to

32:47

happen right. The way we have

32:49

got here the only way we

32:51

could have got here is the way it happened right. So don't

32:54

stress out too much about you

32:56

know when things go

32:58

bad we tend to like really blame

33:00

ourselves or blame something on it. I

33:03

sometimes feel that we miss the

33:05

bigger picture of why that might have happened

33:07

like for example if Covid didn't happen if

33:09

we didn't go through all the mess that

33:12

we did between 2013 to 18 or

33:14

19 I don't think we

33:17

would have reinvented ourselves and got to this

33:19

place right. So and

33:21

so I do believe till that

33:23

point I think I was a reasonable

33:25

atheist right. Now I

33:28

think I'm a believer more

33:30

than more than anything

33:32

else that I think the universe conspires

33:35

to do the right thing for you and

33:37

but it need not be that it's

33:40

going to be like good for you they're going

33:42

to be local minima's which

33:44

then lead to global maxima's right.

33:47

So I think that's that's a thought point

33:49

as well. How do you balance this while

33:53

also being CEO of a company and you're

33:55

setting goals and ambitious growth targets etc and

33:57

stuff like that because at some level this

34:01

is like what has to happen will happen

34:04

must be balanced with but we had set out

34:06

to do this and why has

34:08

this not happened so I mean when when

34:10

your employees when your peers come to you

34:12

etc and stuff like that I'm

34:15

sure there is sometimes a stress

34:17

right you can't always just say

34:19

you know I think focus on

34:21

stuff that you can control right

34:23

focus on the input focus on is

34:26

that individual doing the right things right

34:29

if it's about hitting a goal or

34:32

something is capillary inputs driven

34:34

organization or an output slash

34:37

goals metrics driven organization we

34:40

are I mean of course you you can't run

34:42

an org without output metrics and

34:44

stuff under every output metric you

34:46

have five inputs so and

34:48

life is such right you can hit all those

34:50

five input metrics instantly out for whatever it is

34:53

so you so you when you do

34:55

okay as you obviously go okay yeah

34:58

was it part of the extra 10x

35:00

intervention as well yeah I was

35:02

part of the extra next intervention we I didn't

35:05

think I don't think we did okay as the okay

35:07

are we earlier you'd have goals and stuff but yeah

35:11

so so it's so you do have metrics

35:13

you do have numbers which people can look

35:15

at but what you judge people

35:17

on is inputs more than outputs right because I

35:19

think inputs are in your control how

35:22

long have you been running okay as about

35:25

four years now and and

35:27

what's yours you know from

35:29

the first year to now what's been

35:31

the I mean if you have to distill

35:34

down some of the learnings on running a

35:36

successful ok our program what would they be

35:38

yeah I think I

35:40

think it helps a lot with aligning

35:43

the company on like we use

35:45

the extraneous tool as well so

35:48

they can actually anyone can look at what the

35:50

goals for the company and how it drills down

35:52

right so so it helps

35:54

with that part because you know and

35:57

everyone's aligned on saying here are the

35:59

four big rocks for

36:01

the company for this year.

36:03

So I

36:05

think earlier when we did OKRs it was not

36:07

as top-down, it was a little bit of okay

36:09

what are you doing we'll put your OKR in

36:11

that kind of stuff. I

36:14

think especially in a startup right if the

36:17

again going back to the question of how are you

36:19

adding value to the bigger

36:21

picture right. Most people like to work

36:23

in startups for the purpose for the

36:25

value they are adding for the

36:27

culture or some of that. I think it

36:30

gets solved pretty nicely. I would

36:32

struggle for many years with this question of

36:35

how do you align like 500 people to like

36:37

say here are the clean way right

36:40

every time they log into the tool they can see that

36:43

here are the five things you want to do this year. Got

36:45

it. Is there anything that you're

36:47

paranoid about? Good

36:52

question. Yes there are.

36:54

Again I think you

36:57

know this question of purpose keeps haunting me.

37:01

Haunting is a bad word but I don't know

37:04

like what is the eventual purpose of life

37:07

is a question which I

37:09

don't think I found an answer to. Yeah

37:13

I mean I do read up a lot you

37:16

know so there's the last

37:18

year, year and a half has been a lot of Advaita

37:20

and a lot of Buddhism. But

37:23

again the question of you know

37:26

I think a company can have like what is

37:28

the purpose of life and especially and the

37:32

answer I'm looking for is

37:34

a non-transient answer right. Sometimes

37:37

your purposes which you

37:39

know let's say it's your first job is to

37:42

say I'll get to financial independence and then

37:44

you know whatever whatever whatever. But yeah I

37:47

think that's a question that does that

37:50

I'm kind of paranoid about that you quote is

37:52

the answer to this and what's the path to

37:54

it. Right

37:59

switching to a better question. questions I

38:01

think you said somewhere that you were couch potato till

38:03

2013 what

38:06

changed after that you know I think

38:08

so so till 2020 2008 to ITC was also a

38:14

fairly high stress job right

38:16

I was running maintenance for a

38:18

cigarette factory it used

38:21

to be a high stress job

38:23

so it was not like I had a lot

38:25

of time right so to

38:27

2006 to pre 2006 you're

38:30

anyway at IIT quality of food

38:32

and I think is a I don't need to talk about

38:34

it so 2006 to I think 12

38:36

was years when you know you

38:39

would live on one meal a day I mean not

38:41

because you couldn't eat the other meal but you're just

38:43

so busy with stuff right and it usually would be

38:45

your you'll have a beer

38:47

for dinner and then you'd have some food and then you're

38:49

like done and then the next day starts right I

38:52

got married in 2012 and then I put

38:55

on I went from 72 kilos to

38:57

like 90 kilos in about

39:00

18 months right I just

39:02

not used to eating food so I

39:04

would come home or

39:06

I would get you know like like I'd

39:09

come home and then they'd be amazing food

39:11

at home one two I would

39:13

get a lunchbox home and then you know

39:16

just it was just you

39:18

know and whatever I'd you read ice cream just

39:20

that so I'd suddenly gone from this this

39:24

not lean but let's say like

39:27

okay but okay built guy 72 kilos

39:30

to like 90 right so and

39:33

I think it was early 2014 when we went

39:36

out for a friend's bachelor's to

39:39

Bali and we were

39:41

trying to surf Bali

39:43

has these and for

39:45

my life I couldn't stand up on that damn thing you

39:47

know I realized I look this is this

39:50

is like too much and and the same thing

39:52

was happening with everyone around me as well because

39:54

you know we were all folks who were kind

39:56

of getting married around the same time we were

39:58

all putting on it I think marriage

40:00

is one point when you start putting your mind up to it.

40:03

So we then started a running club

40:06

in Capillary. We would all head to

40:08

cupboard every Sunday morning. That

40:12

switched the thing for me.

40:14

And again, running is

40:16

also very meditative. I mean, I

40:18

don't run now, but... Why

40:21

do you stop? Yeah, what happened

40:23

was when you're running, you also

40:25

need to make sure you hit the gym and all

40:27

that stuff. So I did

40:29

a lot of running. Limited amount of time to do

40:31

XM. Is that what it is? Or

40:33

you're saying running burns calories, so you need to

40:35

put on muscle? No, no, no. What

40:38

happened to me was I injured my knees a

40:40

little too bad. So it was like...

40:43

So from 2014 to 2017, 2018, I think I did some 20

40:45

half marathons and it was just crazy. Because

40:53

now I found a thing. You chance upon something and

40:55

then you were in the world on it. Yeah,

40:58

right. Either it's

41:00

set to off or it's

41:02

set to max. There's nothing in the middle.

41:05

Exactly. So I hurt my knees and

41:08

then it started hurting my back. And so

41:11

then the doctor basically said, look, I think your

41:13

running days are over. Start yoga. So

41:16

I do an hour of yoga every morning. So

41:18

that's replaced the running. And

41:21

then an hour of a pass. So two hours is like a

41:24

lot of time to spend on yourself

41:26

every day. But

41:28

that's the couch for everything changed hands.

41:30

And I was just super overweight

41:32

and everyone else around was

41:34

also. So it went from

41:36

overweight to running and

41:38

now to yoga and vipassana. That's your

41:41

fitness routine now? Yeah, an hour of

41:43

yoga every morning and an hour of

41:45

vipassana is at

41:47

least six days a week. You

41:50

also use the analogy of running a startup

41:52

to being like running a marathon. Yep,

41:55

it is actually. And if you think about

41:57

it, they're both tax. physically

42:00

as well as mentally because you also talked

42:02

about running is a mental

42:04

activity as well. Right. So do

42:06

you want to tell us what I mean

42:09

about that analogy of running

42:11

and like, you know, running a startup

42:13

as well. Yeah, you know,

42:15

I think especially when you're a

42:17

22 year old starting up, you

42:19

really run like it's like a sprint. All

42:22

out. It's like a sprint like all

42:24

out. Right. So and

42:26

then that leads to a lot of burnout,

42:28

like I mentioned and stuff. Right. So.

42:31

So again, when you're prepping for a marathon, you

42:34

know, the first thing you do is you're told

42:36

not to run too fast. Right.

42:38

So I think

42:40

something applies very well to a startup as

42:42

well. Think about it. Like

42:44

if someone told you back when you were starting up that

42:47

look, you'll be doing this for the next 20 years. I

42:50

would probably build it very differently. Right. If I

42:52

nuts when you open the US

42:54

as a market or not be opening Europe, my

42:57

approach has been that saying this is a 10 year build. I'm

42:59

going to take my time. So frustrates key

43:01

employees that you hire sometimes saying like what

43:03

kind of a guy is this? He doesn't

43:05

want things going fast. But you know,

43:07

that's the right way to build. I feel like so even

43:10

in running. If you if I we

43:12

I joined this Janaga Jaguars, which

43:15

is the running club, I don't know if you heard of them and

43:17

they break it down nicely for

43:19

you. Right. So there is a certain

43:21

180 beats

43:23

per minute is I mean, 180 beats per minute.

43:26

That's the zone is typically

43:28

the pace at which you have

43:31

least injuries at

43:33

which you are most optimally, you know,

43:36

burning energy, etc. Right. Some

43:38

of that stuff. I mean, even in startups, if you

43:40

look at the startup equivalent for it, you

43:43

never think of it that way. Like you

43:45

never like

43:47

this, this back in this back in the

43:49

injury thing. If I had asked

43:51

around saying, look, should I do it? Should I

43:53

like go to the gym? I'm sure people have said, you

43:55

have to do both this year. Overrunning so

43:58

much in startups again. you

44:00

don't do that usually. How many times do you

44:02

actually go out and are vulnerable with

44:04

another founder and say, look, I'm trying to build this,

44:06

but I'm messing it up. Lots

44:09

of parallels. I feel running is

44:11

especially wrong runs are extremely meditative.

44:15

Right. So you're alone with yourself and your own.

44:17

You're not with yourselves. And, you know,

44:19

because I was trying to get to this 90 beats

44:21

per minute rhythm. I instead

44:24

of playing music, I would just play a,

44:26

you know, something that gives me the beats.

44:28

So I just had to, and so that

44:31

also like really comes you down. Maybe

44:33

your mind is just focused. It's almost

44:35

like the equivalent of focusing on your

44:37

breath, right? Because you're focusing on those

44:39

constant beats. Correct. Correct. So

44:41

yeah, no, I think being

44:43

physically and mentally fit, I

44:45

think definitely adds a lot of value to your startup.

44:49

What is personal time for you look like? Personal

44:53

as in family or personal? I

44:55

mean, I'll let you answer it the way

44:57

you feel comfortable. You know, so

44:59

I do my Vipassanas. Right.

45:04

So, so, so, you

45:06

know, there's someone who gave me this four

45:09

ways, four, four buckets, you should look

45:13

at life. Right. So one was professional,

45:16

personal, spiritual

45:19

and family. Right. So,

45:22

so I try and do a good like, every

45:24

year we get, we get professional,

45:27

we get spiritual, we get family.

45:29

What's personal? Personal

45:31

is, you

45:33

know, I think like, for me,

45:36

like an hour or two a

45:38

day is what I really try to keep for

45:40

personal. Right. So I get

45:42

up in the morning at four thirty, five

45:45

to six is an hour Vipassana

45:47

six to seven is is

45:50

yoga, yoga instructor comes

45:52

in. So six to seven is yoga. And

45:55

then typically, of late, I try and read a book

45:57

in the morning, like seven to the kids are gone

45:59

to school. like the school bus

46:01

comes in six, three, seven and ten. So yeah, so you get

46:03

done by I'd say like

46:11

read an hour of books, eight,

46:14

nine, something like that. Because

46:16

we have a large US business now, I've

46:18

kind of changed my work timings around a

46:20

little bit. Right. So

46:23

and I think some of this is consciously

46:25

doing it helps. I get to office

46:27

only by 10. And I get out of office

46:29

at three. So again, three

46:32

to six this time with the office from home

46:34

15 minutes, you know, HSR

46:36

and I'll go to the store. So

46:38

three to six is again, time with

46:40

kids and family. But what I was

46:42

realizing was, was understand now the

46:44

two years he'll be gone. So

46:48

three, I head back home. Sorry,

46:50

why would he be gone? He'll be gone

46:52

as in, you know, by I don't think 1213 your kids

46:55

will spend any time with you. So

46:58

my son's turning 14 next month.

47:00

But does he spend time with you? Well,

47:02

yeah, I guess. No,

47:05

but I mean, it's not so much a question. Yeah,

47:07

you're absolutely right. Right. Like, you know, I mean, they

47:10

do develop into I think their own selves,

47:13

like, you know, mini adult selves by the time

47:15

they're teenagers and stuff like that. But

47:18

I guess it's, but they also have their own world of

47:20

friends and they want to go spend time with them. And,

47:22

yeah, I think the interest and stuff like

47:24

that. But I think, yeah, I mean, to

47:28

be honest, as a parent, I mean, the reason

47:30

I asked you this question was because my mental model

47:32

is that they're here with you

47:35

till they're 17, then they're off. So

47:37

when you said at 12, they're off, I was

47:39

like, wait, what did I miss? Right? So no,

47:42

I think it's, you have a lot

47:44

of stuff to look forward to when they become

47:46

teenagers. I mean, I agree. But, you know, I

47:48

think the, like, I

47:50

think the reality dawned on me in the summer

47:52

this year, when so we

47:54

spend our summers typically in in Hyderabad,

47:56

right parents are there, and lots of

47:58

that and all that. I

48:00

travel in and out and

48:03

so this time he said look I don't want to go to head and

48:06

he's very close to the grandparents

48:09

and he said look I don't want to go to

48:11

Hasabada my friends here so that is when it dawned

48:13

to me saying look hey I think it's

48:16

not like you have as much time as

48:18

you think you have right so perhaps I

48:20

mean the transactional way to or a simpler

48:22

way to look at that would be that

48:25

he's just saying that I want more interesting

48:27

ways to spend my summer vacation perhaps right

48:30

not necessarily that I

48:32

mean all due respect to spending time with

48:35

grandparents I mean through here's a gala time

48:37

with grandpa it's just that

48:39

I think he's got to any are

48:41

very fine there are a couple more

48:43

interesting to absolutely either left to him

48:45

he'll go to hide for

48:47

a weekend or anything like that right so

48:50

yeah so that the other thing I'm so

48:52

three to six is with we've

48:55

lunch together at least one meal and

48:57

then six to ten is the US shift

48:59

so we kind of broken it that way

49:01

but personal times is is every

49:04

weekend I try and do three four hours

49:06

of a longer web past nursing

49:10

and then once in year

49:12

you go for a full web past and

49:15

once in here I'm trying to start serving a

49:17

web past now course I did that last year but

49:21

I'm hoping I can make that a regular as well so

49:25

that's personal time for you

49:27

so probably 20 days plus a

49:29

little bit more every week

49:32

you read what what's a

49:34

good book that you could recommend to us

49:36

that you've read recently interesting

49:41

you know I think from a I

49:45

chanced upon this book called you

49:48

would I'm guessing no Samir Guglani Morpheus

49:51

no yeah that's right that's right I

49:55

think or earlier generation that's

49:57

right yeah Samir

49:59

just Some of you recommended this book

50:01

called The Serenitor Experiment. Ah,

50:04

it's by a guy called Michael Singer. Yes. I

50:06

have it. I have it. Yeah,

50:08

so... I haven't started reading it. I bought

50:10

it like second to after this. There's

50:13

another book also as well. Michael Singer. I

50:15

forget. It's called The Untethered Soul.

50:17

That's right. The Untethered Soul. I think Serenitor Experiment

50:19

is the first read. Then you should read it.

50:21

Oh, is it? I'm reading it the other way

50:23

around then. Yeah. So again,

50:25

he's an entrepreneur, a builder, whatever,

50:28

right? So, large

50:30

medical software play. And

50:33

he basically writes a story of how

50:37

he surrendered to life at like

50:39

22, 23 or 24, something like that. And

50:43

how things happened

50:45

in life. Right? So, because,

50:48

you know, as an entrepreneur, at least me.

50:51

I've always been this. I didn't tell

50:53

my first, the pastna happened. You're always

50:55

very in need for control, right? In

50:58

need for control on outcomes, in need for control on...

51:01

So, that was a... I

51:03

call that as a bridge to spirituality type book. You

51:07

know, that was an interesting book to read. Yeah, I

51:09

think Michael Singer does a good job of, I

51:12

think, bridging Eastern spirituality

51:14

with, I think, the

51:17

Western logic focused mindsets that a

51:19

lot of us are more used

51:21

to. So, I think his book

51:23

bridges that very well. You put it very well, actually. Correct.

51:25

So, yeah. So,

51:29

that started me off on reading more on

51:31

the spirituality side, I think. Off-late,

51:34

I've been doing a lot of reading

51:37

on the Buddha. You know, I

51:39

think it's Buddha and Ramana Maharshi. Ramana Maharshi

51:42

actually didn't write much. Buddha,

51:44

on the other hand, has tons of... So,

51:46

it's very interesting. I mean,

51:48

this is, of course, probably not very

51:50

relevant here. But, like the

51:53

Advaita piece and the Buddhism

51:56

are slightly different but very similar, although they've

51:58

been interpreted. very

52:01

differently. So I'm now

52:03

reading a book on by

52:06

this again Western by a

52:09

guy called John Yates.

52:11

What he's trying to do is he's trying to

52:13

apply neuroscience

52:17

on Buddhism and basically the Buddha's

52:19

teaching on how you should meditate. A

52:21

very interesting book on because I've never

52:24

seen anyone say here

52:26

is a path

52:28

to awakening. So

52:31

this one's one of those

52:33

weird. All right. So is

52:37

there something that like other than the person

52:40

of course which you geek out on a lot, is

52:42

there anything else that you've been like, you know, which

52:44

is a hobby or a passion that you've been geeking

52:46

out lately? Yeah,

52:51

the last two years have been very, very

52:54

high on on

52:56

the spirituality side. Right. So,

52:59

so I've been keying out a fair bit on

53:01

this Advaita versus Buddhism thing. All

53:05

right, that's fine. What's the most interesting

53:07

vacation that you went to recently? So

53:10

whatever like the next

53:12

last few years. Interesting.

53:14

That's a good one. So

53:18

Anant and I, Anant was my co-founder and

53:21

at Capri now both of us did the Grand Canyon

53:23

them to him. This

53:26

is a, I don't know if you've

53:29

heard of it, but it's basically, you

53:32

go all the way into the canyon and then you

53:34

climb up, right? So it's a 45 kilometer

53:36

walk. And

53:40

in that 45 kilometer walk, you lose

53:42

one and a half, 1.6 kilometers

53:44

in altitude and you gain 1.6

53:47

kilometers in altitude back. So

53:49

that's one and a half Bhuj Khalifa is being

53:51

gained and lost on

53:54

the same day. We

53:56

have definitely not, I mean, we, you

53:59

know, we've done 100 kilometers. walk together the Oxfam

54:01

thing and stuff but

54:03

so this one was we

54:06

were told you know do two hikes and you'll be prepared

54:09

for it it was very interesting I thought it was a

54:11

it was again peeling a few layers

54:14

off on on yourselves because

54:17

I think with the with most hikes is you climb

54:19

first and then you are done right this one's you

54:21

go down first and then you

54:23

climb and so

54:25

the last I

54:29

say the last

54:31

15 kilometers last five miles

54:34

is when you climb one bhaj khalifab and

54:37

I thought mentally

54:40

for both of us it was a it

54:42

was a it was an aha that you

54:45

know you're almost on the crossroads

54:48

of being a zombie or hallucinating especially

54:50

if you're not there'll be people around

54:52

who would be like you

54:54

know doing it like it's their morning walk and

54:57

then here you would be like

54:59

totally like murdered on it

55:01

so I think that was a that was

55:04

a I'd say pushing the limits no

55:06

far experience very recently with this mid-October

55:09

about three months ago that sounds fascinating

55:12

is there is there

55:14

a entrepreneur that are there

55:16

entrepreneurs that you kind of

55:20

look to or look up

55:22

to when you think about

55:25

building great businesses that last good

55:30

question actually you

55:33

know I think obviously there's I

55:35

like what the Infosys folks have

55:37

done at least the

55:39

version 2010 for sure I

55:41

think it's a incredible story

55:43

of staying to the

55:47

principles taking the hard calls a

55:50

lot of that right so so

55:53

the Infosys founders for sure right

55:56

so the other

55:58

folks in the in the more contemporary generations

56:00

I think are now

56:03

we're not in Moby again right I mean he's he's been

56:05

at it he's done the right things for

56:09

just such a long time now in the

56:12

sass worlds I think so

56:15

the here ends an OT again

56:17

just second or

56:19

third startups you see the maturity of

56:23

of you know running a marathon

56:25

and not doing a sprint and and

56:27

some of that stuff yeah

56:30

I think of the of the folks

56:32

from the Indians and I would I put

56:34

these you're

56:37

a parent what is what do

56:39

you know observe about the way your kids see

56:41

the world versus what you did when you were

56:43

their age I

56:48

think you

56:51

know upbringing has a big impact on kids

56:53

right I think we

56:55

as a generation will probably what I

56:58

tend to call as the hungry generation you know

57:00

we were brought up with a lot of hunger

57:02

right that you have to prove

57:05

a point you have to be

57:07

successful in life you

57:09

have to I don't know how you were brought up

57:12

but I thought most of us were kind of what

57:14

I brought up that way right so I think

57:17

this generation I think we as parents

57:19

are kind of wanting

57:21

to bring them up to be happy

57:23

right I mean I don't know if that's yes yeah

57:28

I think I'm sure our parents also

57:30

wanted us to be happy but their

57:32

definition of happiness was hunger achieve and

57:34

then you'll get too happy I think

57:36

our definition of happiness but job security

57:38

led to happiness so I

57:40

do see that play out a lot of the kids

57:43

like I think the range

57:45

there like you know what Sun

57:48

turned 10 right so we were went

57:50

to a small trek on in in

57:53

Korg and while we were

57:55

climbing up I asked them look so so what do you

57:57

want to do like this I

58:02

mean, casual question on saying, I

58:04

thought he'll give me an answer to saying I want

58:06

to be a scientist or you know that someone asked

58:08

me that, another kid I had said scientist, right?

58:11

So, and I was asked and I did give this answer and

58:13

another kid, right? And he said, I want to be

58:15

happy. So

58:18

I was like, okay. For a

58:20

minute, you were taken aback. For

58:22

a while, actually. I was like, you know,

58:25

so I think our kids definitely see

58:28

the world very differently from

58:30

the way we saw it, right? And

58:33

I also think this is a generation that

58:37

probably will need to answer the question

58:39

of purpose a lot earlier, because they won't

58:42

have that, you know, do you

58:45

have enough money? Is your education

58:47

going to be good? A lot

58:49

of those questions that we probably grappled with when we

58:51

were children, I don't think I'm

58:54

going to be questions. I think I will be questions

58:56

these folks will take, like

58:58

for granted that, so I think the sooner

59:03

you put them on the path of finding

59:06

purpose, I think the more happy they

59:08

would be. You know,

59:10

I feel even they are probably trying to answer that for themselves

59:12

in some sense. Like

59:14

my son does it for 10, 12

59:16

minutes, once or twice a week with

59:19

me when I sit down to my date as well. So I

59:21

think he's also probably that side of it a

59:23

little bit. It's

59:25

a lovely chat. Anish, thank you so much

59:27

for coming on the show. Thanks.

59:31

Thanks, man. Thank

59:44

you. You

1:00:30

You