0:04

I would say in the past I

0:11

would react and I would be like

0:14

you know kind of mad and you know

0:16

frustrated and I think I was

0:18

a big asshole when we started

0:20

rebel and you know I rubbed people

0:22

the wrong way. I must have rubbed them the

0:25

right way also because people stuck with As

0:28

a founder when you're just getting started impatience

0:30

is a given. It

0:33

comes from a mix of youth, ambition

0:36

and a desire to prove others wrong which

0:39

is why Ajayati Burman of Rebel Foods

0:41

who you just heard recollects

0:43

from his personal experience. You

0:45

know I would not take setbacks

0:48

and failures lightly and I would be

0:51

like really edgy and things like that. But

0:53

as your startup gets older, as

0:56

you get older you learn to ease

0:58

back from the front lines of daily

1:00

battles and crises into your true role

1:03

as a leader. I think over time I have

1:05

learned to take a long view of things.

1:13

Because once you have passed two things the

1:16

race against time to ensure that your

1:18

business will survive and the race against

1:20

your own mind to prove that you're

1:23

good enough, you change. You come

1:25

to the understanding that you live to

1:27

see another day and that what hasn't

1:29

killed you has indeed made you stronger.

1:31

You start to reflect and see you

1:33

weren't doing all that bad. Reflection

1:36

for most founders is a hard

1:38

pill to swallow because it can't kick

1:40

in early by design. You

1:42

need the passage of time. You have to wait

1:44

it out. All the while the

1:46

people around you suffer and live through

1:48

you being terrible to them during that

1:50

phase. Once that's over

1:53

you're grateful to those very

1:55

people for sticking around despite

1:57

your brashness and unreasonableness. Perspective

2:00

you gain after that is immensely

2:02

valuable. It's not just to you,

2:04

but for your organization to. And.

2:06

Maybe after have you Who have these Knox

2:09

I realized that. Do you know. In

2:13

the long run. It

2:15

alone matter. I think. I'm

2:19

more. Of

2:22

more at peace know it is

2:24

with respect to I was. I

2:27

usually like to lead with reflections

2:29

When starting off the second half

2:31

of our conversation that first principles

2:33

this one to is filled with

2:35

recollections what a bit more possible

2:37

and self reflective. The self reflection

2:39

shots with the entirety of my

2:41

to our long conversation with Jedi.

2:43

Part of this we released on

2:45

twenty fifty. In fact I'd urge

2:47

you to listen to that first

2:49

but if you haven't already and

2:51

then returned to the second been

2:53

really understand what I mean. But

2:55

if you're already done. With it than

2:57

welcome to First Principles. I'm your host

3:00

Roland Emmerich. Months and this is part

3:02

two of my Conversations with Jedi by

3:04

my Club Gets. tight

3:35

are you a premium subscriber to the

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can if you're not i'm not yet

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a fresher take all the time in

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the woods but if you are a

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your subscriber be released of completely the

3:49

lamp was in that was you're not

3:51

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3:53

the making up all that i was

3:56

if i'm being honest a little long

3:58

in the book stop

4:00

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you aren't a subscriber yet. Thanks

4:58

for listening. Switching back to my

5:00

conversation with Jerry Berman now. What

5:05

part of your job do you wish you didn't have to

5:08

do? I

5:26

think running a brick and

5:28

mortar business in India, especially restaurants,

5:32

comes with a lot of regulatory

5:34

and I'm

5:37

sure there are industries which are even more regulated. But like,

5:40

for example, every kitchen of

5:42

us requires five licenses. And

5:47

you never know when

5:50

you're the wrong side of the law

5:52

because it's so sort of fuzzy and

5:54

vague and things like that. And

5:58

now there are Talks of us becoming

6:01

a public company. I think this will go

6:03

to another level But

6:06

the interesting freezing Let's

6:09

leave it at that. Yeah, and

6:11

that's that part

6:13

of the job I've You

6:16

know, I have I have

6:19

struggled with but over time I Think

6:22

we've got the right people to to take care of that

6:25

but There

6:28

are many other things that you

6:30

know the The

6:35

procedural things let's say, you

6:37

know, I have never been

6:39

my forte and I never look forward to Those

6:44

things the question that didn't

6:46

ask you is what's the

6:48

The Skill-set

6:53

complimentary match between you and

6:55

Kahlil What

6:57

does like how the how did the two of you

6:59

fit together? I mean it's very interesting right the two

7:01

of you Studied

7:04

together then decided to start Faso's

7:06

together and then left

7:09

it to do your MBA's together and

7:11

then came back after your MBA's and

7:13

different jobs to do rebel

7:15

foods and you're still together so obviously there

7:18

is a significant

7:20

amount of I think

7:24

Compliment Areas inism if I were to kind of

7:26

use that going on right? What is it? What's

7:29

the equation between the two of you? What is

7:31

he and what are you? Yeah, so I mean

7:33

I'll quote Kahlil on this So according to him

7:35

he told this to all of our investors In

7:37

fact that Chadip takes care of

7:40

business as usual and I take care of

7:42

anything that comes in the way of businesses Interesting.

7:46

So I think our partnership

7:50

You know, I have had a horror story I have heard horror

7:52

stories about you know, two people Not

7:56

being able to continue for a long time, but we

7:58

go really long way. So there is a chemistry

8:00

that is there but

8:06

I think Kullal has a very

8:08

clear mind because he's unburdened with the

8:12

business as usual responsibilities of

8:15

rebel. So for example if you have

8:17

you know when we open a new country

8:19

for example figuring that thing out you know

8:22

how some of the

8:24

laws of the land should be catered

8:26

to or some like the Indonesia business we

8:29

have to get out of and

8:31

that is not easy you know guess I realized

8:33

that getting on is tougher than getting in that

8:36

is not business as usual that is not you

8:38

know impacting us so he would pick

8:40

that up finish it you

8:43

know if you look at his LinkedIn profile

8:45

exactly he says special assignments at rebel food

8:48

sometimes it feels like he's an

8:50

assassin or something but I was about to actually

8:52

while even before you said special

8:56

operations I said the picture that

8:58

you're painting of him is like that typically that

9:01

you know a tiger team that goes in

9:03

operation like a set of commandos which is

9:06

specific set of skills and then they come

9:08

back once the operation is done yeah so

9:11

he does every year they're like couple of

9:13

projects like this he does

9:15

so that's one secondly you know

9:19

he he has

9:21

been a calming in influence

9:24

on rebel especially in the years

9:26

when I was like

9:30

really really

9:35

not a not a great

9:37

boss I would say was that on

9:39

the 2014 timeframe around yeah mostly between

9:44

2010 2011 and 2015 16 you know he had a

9:46

calming influence you know people would go to him and

9:49

you know and and talk to him and

9:52

things so these are these are things

9:54

he and plus the

9:56

other pieces when I am thinking

9:58

about something He

10:00

is a great bouncing board because he has a very clear

10:02

mind. He is

10:04

not, you know,

10:07

technically I am not his boss. He

10:09

can speak his mind out. He has

10:12

a clear thinking, has rebel, you

10:17

know, as his first priority. So, great,

10:20

you know, sort of bouncing board for ideas.

10:23

I didn't ask you, why is it called rebel foods? Well,

10:27

I think, you know, it

10:30

was a name given by one of

10:32

our investors. So, around 2016-17, we had Fasto's

10:34

and then Behrouz came about around 2017 and a bunch of

10:36

brands. So, we are

10:38

thinking, okay, we can't call ourselves Fasto's anymore

10:40

as a company. You should come up with

10:42

a different name. And

10:45

then, I remember in one of

10:47

the meetings where

10:49

there are a couple of investors in the room

10:51

and someone from Lightbox, in fact, he

10:54

said, okay, you guys are doing things that have never

10:56

been done before. You are like, you

10:59

know, always trying to do things differently,

11:01

not mainstream. Why

11:05

don't you call yourself rebel foods? And

11:07

unanimously we say, you know, it's amazing.

11:09

So, yeah, that's how

11:11

it came about. Alright.

11:17

What phrases, do you have any pet phrases

11:19

that you are known for at work, where

11:22

in meetings, in discussions, etc.,

11:24

you end up seeing things

11:28

frequently? Well,

11:31

I think the team can say this. Alright.

11:37

In review meetings, what's the one line

11:40

that your teams dread hearing from you? Not

11:44

raising the bar. Because

11:49

there have been times where I realized that,

11:54

you know, everything is hunky-dory, everything is good, that

11:57

the bar hasn't been raised. So, people are not thinking

11:59

the next level. and not challenging

12:01

this status quo, just

12:03

being comfortable and that's

12:06

always my, you

12:10

know, if I see consecutive two

12:12

months of great contact

12:14

data and great CX data

12:17

and, you know, gradually

12:19

increasing season, I'm thinking that maybe

12:21

we're not, you know,

12:24

raising the bar and not, you know,

12:26

pushing ourselves to the next level. And

12:30

because we do the written format

12:33

of review, that people have to write the whole

12:35

thing, so

12:37

people put a lot of work behind,

12:40

you know, writing that out, a

12:42

lot of thinking, etc., etc.

12:45

And there have been cases where I said that

12:47

this is not, this is not raising

12:49

the bar, this is being comfortable

12:52

and I think that would be the

12:54

one. I want

12:56

to ask you about long-form communication

12:58

for meetings, specifically how

13:00

do you ensure that when someone puts

13:02

in a lot of hard work into

13:05

writing a long-form piece about

13:07

a project that they're planning or like some

13:09

initiative that they're planning and

13:11

if it's being sent out to a group,

13:13

how do you ensure that the group actually reads it and

13:16

values it and it doesn't end

13:18

up becoming a scenario where the person who

13:21

wrote the long-form feels that, look, I wrote

13:23

it, but I don't

13:25

think anyone took it seriously enough. Yeah,

13:28

see, you know, I

13:31

used to work at McKinsey where there was a

13:33

saying that, you know, we

13:35

were changing the world one PowerPoint slide

13:37

at a time. So it's like that

13:40

hardcore. But the one

13:42

thing I realized that the

13:44

problem with PowerPoints is that

13:46

it's biggest use is

13:51

to make the presenter look good. And

13:55

other result, all the charts on PowerPoints are, you

13:57

know, upwards looping towards the right and, you know.

14:00

You just bring in the good news after good news after

14:02

good news. Because you

14:04

have to, you have to present, you have to look good. Secondly,

14:08

you are saying something and

14:10

then someone asks a question which you are already covering

14:12

three slides down the line. So these

14:14

are all issues with PowerPoint presentation. So

14:17

fundamentally long form actually meetings become

14:19

sharper, number one and everybody realizes

14:21

that. So what happens? So

14:24

someone writes is typically meeting at a level. Someone

14:26

would write, prepare, either it's a review, a

14:28

business review or a new project as you

14:30

said, or PR FAQ, which is a new

14:33

product is like new brand is going to

14:35

be launched. The Amazon PR FAQ. Amazon PR

14:37

FAQ, etc. And there is no,

14:41

there is no sending out the document and expecting

14:43

people to read. So the

14:45

meeting starts with the documents. So people read for the first

14:47

10, 15 minutes. So

14:50

there is this, you know, absolute silence for

14:52

like 10, 15 minutes, people are actually reading the document.

14:56

And then the sections, so one is like,

14:58

what's going well, what's not, depending on what

15:00

type. And then there is leadership debates, you

15:03

know, issues. If you

15:05

don't read those, then, you know,

15:08

there are leaders in the room, we have to

15:11

discuss debate based on

15:13

that. If you don't, you know,

15:15

you won't be participating in that, in that meeting.

15:18

Secondly, decisions would be taken on that document. That

15:20

might affect you as a leader, you know, you

15:22

may be expected, like leadership support

15:24

required, there is a section where

15:27

you're asking for support from leaders around the table

15:29

or functions around the table. If you don't read

15:31

it, you don't know what has been asked for

15:33

and it gets passed. And then it

15:36

will come on you to deliver that part of

15:39

the project. So people have to read it. Otherwise, there

15:41

is no somewhere in the system, it will get caught.

15:44

And then secondly, it is more

15:47

efficient for people who are reading because meetings

15:51

become shorter, sharper around

15:53

the most important, you know,

15:55

decision points. So it saves everybody's time and

15:57

nobody wants to have long meetings. and

16:00

all of that. So it's in everybody's benefit

16:02

and the guy who or the girl who

16:04

is writing has to

16:06

put forward the the thinking

16:09

behind you know and

16:12

also it is not a You

16:14

know make me look good kind of a presentation so

16:16

if something is not going well, it is written there,

16:18

you know and and all of

16:20

that, so there's a lot of benefits like The

16:24

right things gets discussed it's sharper You

16:27

know people are on the table who are expected

16:29

to deliver something gets to know they get to

16:31

know You know what I'm expected to deliver If

16:34

something needs to be discussed it will

16:36

get discussed so lots of benefits, but

16:38

it takes It

16:40

took us a year. You know five six years

16:42

back when we started this to actually go through

16:45

some of these cycles and then we used to

16:47

have a Feedback

16:51

Loop there. How was the document? You know

16:53

was it action-oriented a couple of things and

16:55

people started rating those and you know

16:58

There was some coaching etc that was given so now

17:00

it is like second nature You

17:02

know after so many years in writing a good

17:04

document and and reading that document

17:07

having that discussion This is

17:09

something which is just done at a

17:12

senior leadership level or it percolates across various

17:14

levels of the organization All

17:16

meetings are done through You

17:18

know, there is some WBR etc, which is our tricks

17:22

I would say 90% would be

17:24

written material and how easy is it

17:26

when new people join the Organization to

17:28

be able to develop this key scale

17:31

of being able to communicate the thoughts

17:34

Well in a structured manner through a

17:36

narrative form which by the way

17:38

is not a common skill Yeah

17:40

It's not a common skill, but the thing is now

17:43

that we have been doing it at any point in time

17:45

in a meeting It's

17:47

not that every day some new person is coming

17:50

and doing it So as a ratio of number

17:52

of new people trying to do is small and

17:54

they learn quickly They learn quickly because they would be

17:57

there in a couple of I have seen I remember

17:59

our head of engineering, we

18:01

joined about two, three years back in

18:04

the first meeting, everybody silent reading the document. He's

18:06

like, what's going on? And

18:08

then we have to explain that, okay, first we'll

18:10

read it and then we'll discuss. People

18:13

catch on and you know. What

18:16

are some of your favorite mental models when

18:18

it comes to decision making especially? Some

18:28

of the mental models we already probably talked

18:30

about, which we use in business.

18:38

I would say the one, again coming back to what

18:40

I was saying about being different,

18:42

etc., etc., by definition,

18:48

if there is a lot

18:50

of support for an idea, a lot

18:52

of like agreement around

18:54

an idea, etc.,

18:57

usually that is not

19:01

going to lead to massive returns and

19:03

some ideas are table stakes, like good

19:05

customer service, you have to

19:07

do it, right? But

19:10

then I have always seen their

19:13

ideas that do not have support. Can

19:16

you give me an example of such an idea

19:18

from the recent past that internally

19:20

perhaps someone floated but enough

19:23

people won't convince but it eventually

19:25

went on to become successful for you? You

19:28

know, if it's a recent, then I can't tell you. I

19:31

mean, like you could go back in time. So

19:34

like, for example, the whole thing about having

19:38

two Biryani brands, people

19:41

don't, maybe not a lot of people.

19:43

Say which is the other one? Behrouz

19:45

Biryani is your primary brand? The Biryani

19:48

life. I did not know this. So,

19:51

again, someone in the room said that

19:54

with Behrouz, we are addressing the premium

19:56

end of the market, which is groups of luxury

19:58

in that two by two. But

20:01

then there is consumer behaviour which is

20:03

like in between meetings, especially in South

20:05

India, people who order quick Biryani etc.

20:08

Bheerus, if we want to have a

20:11

version of Bheerus, then we will drag

20:13

the brand of Bheerus down to

20:15

that bottom left. And no

20:17

longer stay premium. No longer stay,

20:20

not only premium but also groups of. So

20:24

that was the genesis of this.

20:27

I don't remember who exactly came up with this. We are

20:29

saying, but no, we

20:32

will lose focus, etc. And

20:34

so there was not. But it

20:37

was something that we tried out

20:39

and it worked beautifully. And we saw a

20:41

completely different use case, different types of, and

20:43

it has, again a couple of years, become

20:45

100 crore plus in revenue. I mean still

20:47

early days, but the early signs are great.

20:51

So you know, ideas that,

20:54

and

20:57

there will be lot of ideas where it

20:59

will not work. But what I

21:01

am saying is that gating criteria should

21:03

not be whether this is going to be right or wrong. The

21:06

gating criteria is, you

21:09

know, if an idea sounds like, you know,

21:11

really wacky and you know, really

21:14

out of the box, let's try and do it. And then

21:16

let's see whether it's right or wrong. Usually

21:19

people do lot of analysis on whether

21:23

this is right or wrong. But

21:25

fundamentally right or wrong is not going to define whether

21:27

it will become a huge success or not. Obviously

21:30

you have to be right. But first you have to get

21:32

off the bat saying

21:34

that we go after this idea which is

21:36

not looking like a great idea

21:38

in the first go. And

21:41

we have done many of this, many of this didn't succeed, but

21:43

some of them did and some of those have

21:46

become the whole idea

21:48

of launching a new brand from the same kitchen.

21:51

It was an idea like that back

21:53

in 2016, 17. People

21:56

are investors say, are you crazy? You know, this

21:58

is the, McDonald's was built. because

22:01

of that, you know, that one brand

22:03

focus, you

22:05

know, making that thing, you know, day

22:07

in day out. So you would and

22:10

not many people understood this, not many people

22:12

agreed with this before

22:14

has it worked out because later on it has been

22:16

proven that this will work.

22:20

Interestingly, I mean, if I connect this back,

22:22

I mean, what you seem to be saying

22:24

is that there is a significant premium at

22:27

rebel foods for

22:29

experimentation and not just thinking

22:32

about what is right and wrong, but here's

22:35

something which may not fit into the

22:37

buckets of right and wrong. But

22:41

let's try it out. Yeah, I

22:43

see that as connecting back to what

22:45

your original advantage is your you're saying,

22:48

look, we can spin up

22:50

brands at a very low

22:52

marginal cost. So

22:55

therefore, our cost of experimentation

22:57

is very low. So in

22:59

effect, this thinking aids your

23:01

business model as well, because it allows you

23:04

to play to your strengths, someone else cannot

23:06

just spin up a brand, you

23:09

know, very rapidly or at a very

23:11

low cost, but you can. Yeah, that's

23:13

today. But you're

23:16

right. Absolutely. Today, launching

23:18

a new brand is no more a bold

23:20

decision for us, so to speak.

23:24

But where that brands to be launched and

23:26

you know what price point like this TBL

23:28

example, it was not as much a decision of whether we

23:30

can launch a new brand or not. What

23:33

should be the price point should be positioned differently? Those

23:35

are some of the things and

23:38

around 2016, 17, even launching a new brand was

23:40

a bold decision because we didn't have the operating

23:42

system. It got built while we

23:44

launched new brand. The act

23:46

of following one of these some of

23:48

these parts led to the

23:50

evolution of the business model of the operating

23:52

system. It was not like we

23:55

landed on the operating system and then you

23:58

know, build other things. Are

24:00

there any, the opposite

24:02

of great mental models are cognitive biases,

24:04

right? Like in many ways, are there

24:07

any cognitive biases that you try to

24:09

prevent your colleagues from

24:11

falling into? For example, some cause

24:13

bias, information bias, etc. Are

24:16

there traps that you kind of try and steer them

24:18

clear of? See,

24:21

I also have some of those biases. So it's

24:23

as a team, we

24:27

are, you know, one of the

24:29

things that you say at some cost. We are, over

24:32

time, we've gotten better at it,

24:35

but there were times when we got like stuck on

24:37

that, you know, invested into something and just trying to

24:39

make it work. While

24:42

enough data points are there saying

24:44

that it's not going to work. So

24:48

those are pitfalls that we saw

24:50

ourselves and we continuously remind us.

24:56

The other

24:58

pitfall is analysis paralysis, which is what you

25:00

are, probably that's the

25:02

other end of the spectrum. Where

25:05

for us, if anyone says that let's,

25:08

this sounds like a good idea, the

25:11

first reaction in the room would be let's pilot.

25:15

It's very interesting because today I was

25:17

reading this book by Nassim

25:19

Nicholas Taleb, which is called Skin in the

25:21

Game. And in Skin in

25:23

the Game, he says that information

25:27

learned by experimentation and

25:29

doing is

25:31

worth much more than merely

25:33

theoretical information. So

25:36

a lot of your success you're seeing

25:39

comes back from that thing of, hey, you

25:41

got an idea, why don't you try it

25:43

out instead of just talking about it. Absolutely.

25:47

Yeah, I think an

25:50

idea is good only when it succeeds in the

25:53

marketplace, no, no, no, on Excel sheet and put

25:55

your money where your mouth is. Yeah, put your

25:57

money where, and that's good. advantage

26:00

today is that we don't have to invest

26:02

a lot before we

26:05

get that information back from the market. But

26:30

over time the Sunday newsletter has taken a

26:32

life of its own. Yes,

26:34

it still has self-reflection, life-long learning

26:36

and career growth at its core

26:39

but it also has sections on

26:41

books, photography and interesting articles.

26:43

There is also a vibrant, global

26:45

community of readers who send in

26:47

their recommendations and tips and photos.

26:50

Last week we published a timely

26:52

summer playlist which, in my humble

26:54

opinion, is eclectic, vibing and

26:57

muscle-up. You can subscribe to the

26:59

newsletter for free. Thank God

27:01

some of the wonderful things in life

27:03

are still free just like this podcast

27:05

too. I'll leave a link in the show

27:07

notes. Okay, that's all I had

27:09

to say. Back to the episode. How

27:15

do you most reliably, what's

27:17

your most reliable hack to learn

27:20

new things? See,

27:23

I have been

27:26

a voracious reader all

27:28

my life and a little bit of that has

27:30

to do with my family.

27:33

My father would

27:35

be reading, I don't know, like five

27:37

books a week or something like that.

27:39

And I

27:42

picked up that habit that sometimes

27:45

I overdo and people

27:47

get worried when I'm reading a book because

27:50

I would come up with some new fancy idea

27:52

and will say let's try this out.

27:55

But I've tempered that a little bit but

27:57

I get really, really inspired, maybe over inspired

27:59

by books. So

28:05

that's one. Recently podcasts as well like

28:07

you know my favorite podcast is this

28:10

podcast called Aquired. It's

28:13

like three-yard and I take

28:15

long drives so it suits

28:17

me. Like I realize you know

28:19

our business model is very similar to and when I

28:21

say this people will say I'm crazy very

28:24

similar to LVMH and

28:26

I realize very interesting. I would

28:28

love to the world's largest luxury

28:30

company whose owner at one

28:32

point was the world's richest man. Yeah

28:35

and like the similarity I would love

28:37

to hear the the the same operating

28:39

system philosophy like

28:42

an operating system of and

28:45

it that that podcast open this

28:49

in front of me like you know an

28:51

operating system is distribution layer as

28:53

an operating layer people manufacturing

28:59

the entire supply chain one layer on

29:03

top of that you position

29:05

brands differently. So LVMH has

29:07

its own retail outlets its

29:09

artisans manufacture its own products

29:12

it has its multiple various brands

29:15

and yes and then the and

29:17

the evolution like PNG and HQL

29:20

was established like that but

29:23

LVMH started with one brand and then

29:26

acquired many and then acquired or built

29:28

and on the journey and along the

29:30

journey build this operating system. That's

29:34

why Disney also to to to some extent

29:37

maybe little far-fetched but so

29:41

and then the learnings from there and

29:43

yeah you know I would say

29:45

yeah these are these are places that I you

29:48

know that I get my you

29:50

know. Switching to a bit of personal stuff

29:53

towards the end what does personal time mean for you what

29:55

does it look like? I

30:00

think reading... Physical

30:04

books, Kindle... Kindle... Now

30:06

I flip between books, so many times

30:08

that it's impossible I'm travel, I can't

30:10

carry all those books, so Kindle... Now...

30:15

Also exercising... Because

30:17

in any case I'm going once a year, so I have to

30:20

remain reasonably fit...

30:23

If not... I like how you're... Like

30:26

you know, necessitating the need to stay fit

30:28

to going once a year on a trek

30:31

rather than saying that I need to stay

30:33

fit, period... True, yeah I

30:35

think you're absolutely right on that because I'm

30:38

not... You know... For

30:42

me going out is the ultimate and

30:44

being there is the ultimate goal and...

30:47

You know... That one month of

30:49

the year necessitates you work out for the remaining

30:51

11 months, so be it... Totally... Totally...

30:54

So... What... What... I mean what's

30:56

your work out... Running... A

30:58

lot of running, little bit of strength

31:00

but mostly running... Unless

31:02

I'm you know I'm sore or something then

31:04

I walk... After dinner

31:06

walks as well and that is the time I

31:08

also listen to things... So

31:11

yeah... What does focus mode look

31:13

like for you? It's

31:18

just thinking about a problem... And...

31:21

Like really... When and where... Like is

31:23

there a place... I mean have

31:26

you observed that like you know there are places where you're

31:28

able to kind of do that thinking... So

31:30

I have... I have an attic with

31:33

a treadmill... And

31:36

that is the place... You

31:39

know... I think at least for

31:41

the last 5-6 years I have... You know

31:43

I've done my most... Productive...

31:45

Productive and rigorous thinking...

31:51

While you're on the treadmill... No... No...

31:53

Not necessarily... No... Not

31:55

necessarily but also that... Doing

32:03

what makes you lose all sense

32:05

of time? I

32:10

think walking on a mountain. That

32:13

should be not obvious when I'm married. You're

32:16

married, you have two daughters. How old are

32:19

they? One is just going to

32:21

college, the other is 14. So

32:24

plus seven. One of your daughters

32:26

is leaving for college. How does that feel like? She's

32:31

going to UCLA. In

32:35

fact, she's there. She's just left. It's

32:43

quite crazy in many levels. I

32:48

lived in a hostel all my life. My

32:52

parents knew how to live without me for a

32:54

long period of time. This

32:56

one, especially for my wife, is

32:59

tough. This is the first

33:01

time she's going to a place where it will

33:05

take 24 hours for us to reach. She has

33:07

already gone there. It's

33:10

tough. It's

33:16

our decision, so we can't do

33:19

anything about it. What

33:21

have you observed in

33:24

your daughters, them going to

33:27

college, which is

33:30

similar or different from you

33:32

when you were their age? I

33:37

think totally different, completely different. I

33:40

think maybe a

33:42

function of our world at that point in

33:44

time. I

33:48

think the world is flat now. I

33:51

have a friend, a very

33:53

old friend, living in London. Their

33:56

family visited us over the summer, last

33:58

summer. And

34:01

I realized that the music that these guys

34:03

are listening to, like some... My

34:05

daughter sitting in Pune and this boy

34:07

sitting in London are the same. For

34:11

us, that was not

34:13

the case at all. So the world

34:15

is absolutely flat. Their predilections,

34:18

inclinations, tastes, etc. is

34:20

absolutely global. Exposure

34:23

is great. At our times we are

34:25

thinking, engineering,

34:29

maybe one or two other professions.

34:32

But my younger daughter told me the

34:34

other day that ten

34:37

years down the line people will say, become

34:39

a YouTuber or an Instagrammer. Maybe

34:42

that will also change. But I

34:44

think the whole

34:46

world in terms of options, exposure, everything

34:48

has changed completely. So I think it's

34:51

a totally different world that these guys

34:53

are living in. Do

34:55

you have a nickname? Whether at Trabel

34:58

or at home? At Trabel I am JB. But

35:01

it's not really a nickname, it's just an abbreviation. But

35:04

did you have a nickname growing up? I

35:06

know a lot of Bengalis do have nicknames

35:08

growing up. My

35:10

nickname was Puta, which means a

35:13

small one. Did

35:15

you have elder siblings? No. I am 5'5",

35:17

5'2". I

35:24

am always on the football field. I used to

35:26

be the smallest kid around. On a trekking

35:29

path I am the smallest one. I

35:32

still am. If

35:34

you were locked in a room for 24 hours without

35:36

any internet, what would you do? With

35:41

my Kindle. Read

35:43

books? Read books, yeah. This

35:47

is a great question considering that like

35:49

the Sea of Rebel Foods, what's your

35:51

favourite cuisine? What

35:55

is it that you eat 6 or 7 times

35:57

out of 10 when you go out? Is there such a cuisine?

36:00

No, food is

36:03

anti-habit. You know, you have it too many times. No,

36:06

it's true. I mean, there are people

36:08

who are very habituated to food, but for you

36:10

it's an anti-habit. No, a particular dish. Six,

36:13

seven times. But I

36:15

would say Biryani is probably

36:18

right up there. Also,

36:21

anything else... Are you one of those Biryani fanatics who are

36:23

able to say that there are 17 varieties of Biryani? I

36:27

can pick types of Biryani. It's

36:29

definitely Calcutta Biryani,

36:32

Lucknowi, Hyderabadi, Dindigul,

36:35

Talakapati. I'm

36:39

one of those. Also, South East Asian,

36:42

like Indonesian, Thai,

36:44

Vietnamese, real

36:46

little sushi. I have a

36:49

palette for Asian food. Is

36:53

there anything that parenting has taught you about yourself?

36:59

Yeah, I think... I

37:09

think the biggest thing it taught me, especially

37:11

with my daughters... Is

37:18

that... I

37:23

mean, I know it might come across as

37:25

a very simple thing, that I can't tell

37:27

them what to do. I

37:31

have to make them realize

37:35

and own the decision. Believe in

37:37

something. And on their own

37:39

will. The day

37:41

I've seen it a number of times, even

37:43

if I know that there is a particular

37:46

way that something has to happen or they

37:48

have to behave, the moment

37:50

I instruct, there

37:52

is a problem. But

37:57

having a discussion, having a free discussion,

37:59

open discussion, discussion, discussing things, making

38:01

them realize something. I

38:05

think that's true for this generation,

38:07

you know, in general. So yeah,

38:09

that's the thing. And

38:13

you know, there are other small things like, you know,

38:17

my elder daughter never liked trekking, you

38:19

know, and I tried to take her

38:21

to, you know, mountains many

38:23

times, but I could not

38:26

make her do it. She's a great dancer. My

38:28

younger daughter one fine morning came to me and said she

38:30

was to go to a trek with me and you

38:33

know, that must be one of the

38:35

happiest moments that you know,

38:37

I would have a company for for as long as

38:39

I am able to do this. So

38:43

yeah, so I've seen there's no point forcing

38:46

anything on to these guys. How

38:50

would you rate your own performance as a CEO

38:52

and as a parent on a scale of one

38:54

to CEO,

39:03

I think till

39:05

now I

39:09

would rate like six, seven, but

39:11

I think going forward, I

39:17

think I need to find a better CEO. When

39:21

the company becomes bigger and

39:24

more process oriented and

39:26

routine. I

39:29

just feel that even

39:31

within my team, there are people who are better than me. Is

39:36

that liberating feeling that

39:39

you feel comfortable enough to acknowledge them?

39:41

I feel very good about it because

39:45

if I were the best man or the best

39:47

person for the job, then I'd be very worried

39:51

because then, you know, I'm not going to be here forever.

39:54

And I think we are on to an opportunity which is

39:57

really timeless because people would be eating. And

40:01

I would be very worried about if I were the

40:03

best person to do this. So I can see already

40:06

in my team people who are better

40:08

than me in many things. So I

40:11

feel like... Alright, 6 or 7 on 10 as

40:13

a CEO and as a parent? I

40:15

think lower. I think 4. Was

40:18

that because a lot of your time

40:20

was spent at work? I think so. My

40:27

first daughter was born when we

40:30

were just started. The

40:32

first avatar of fast food and then there were a lot of

40:34

travels etc. My second daughter was born

40:37

just before rebel foods. The

40:39

second innings of rebel foods started. So I think

40:42

these guys went

40:45

through a large part of their life. This

40:49

is a story that my wife keeps reminding me all

40:51

the time. That in

40:53

our society campus, I would

40:55

come on Thursday night. And

40:57

my younger daughter used to think that's how dads

40:59

behave. They go out on Monday morning and come

41:01

back Thursday night. And

41:04

then once I came

41:07

home on Monday

41:09

or Tuesday, I remember she was ecstatic. And

41:11

she was like, how come you're here today?

41:15

And then her friends told her that

41:17

dads come home every night. It's

41:20

not that they don't come. And when

41:22

I look back to those things, I

41:25

feel I could have been better. I

41:27

could have made choices like shifting the family to Bombay.

41:30

I didn't push hard enough. I

41:32

took the easy choices

41:35

which is Pune was a great city. My

41:37

wife loved it and schools were great. Life

41:40

was easier. So

41:43

I took that choice.

41:46

Maybe I could have made better choices as a

41:48

father. And

41:50

on a scale of 1 to 10, how happy are you with your

41:52

life? 6,

41:55

I would say. 6,

41:58

yeah. a

42:00

few questions on fitness because

42:02

I mean you are into

42:05

that as well. What does fitness mean to you? Fitness

42:10

would mean here I go back

42:13

to going out then I can

42:16

keep walking without getting tired. And

42:21

you know

42:23

this is not very

42:25

obvious but the thing about mountaineering

42:27

especially high altitude

42:31

like mountain climbing, hiking whatever you call it

42:34

you can never go fast because you and this

42:36

is very similar to

42:38

businesses. If you go

42:40

too fast you are gasping for air and

42:43

then you have to come so there is a saying in mountaineering

42:45

which is like climb high sleep low.

42:48

So that means you don't sleep

42:50

at your highest point you come down a little

42:53

bit and sleep so that you acclimatize better and

42:55

same for business by the way I have learnt

42:57

it the hard way but

42:59

as long as I can do it I can go to

43:01

altitude and breathe

43:03

in a rarefied atmosphere you

43:05

know come back in one

43:07

piece you know I would say I am fit.

43:10

Has that definition of fitness changed for you

43:12

over the years? I

43:16

think new elements cropped in like

43:19

cholesterol levels and things like that. That

43:22

would have been my next question which is

43:24

is there a metric that you use to

43:26

kind of keep track is like you know

43:29

like if I were to say that fitness

43:31

for you I know it's impossible to reduce

43:33

it to one or two metrics but what

43:35

are the ones that you look at most

43:37

closely to determine your own fitness? I

43:39

think I look at VO2

43:41

max which my watch tells me

43:44

the second is my resting heart

43:46

rate these are like

43:48

everyday like couple of couple

43:50

of times every day and then

43:53

periodically I do normal blood tests

43:55

and things like that. Are

43:57

there any favorite fitness habits that served

43:59

you? well over the years to stay fit.

44:03

I think at least 3 days

44:05

of running a week and

44:08

50 miles, about 100 kilometers a

44:11

month. The

44:14

months that I am slightly injured etc and

44:16

it reduces, I can sense it, the

44:19

muscles are tighter. How

44:22

long do you run? A typical run for you is

44:24

how many kilometers? 8 to 10 kilometers, not

44:27

like in ultra long distance. Is

44:31

there a book that you would recommend on

44:33

fitness, favorite book?

44:38

Not a book, there is one

44:40

book which is called,

44:45

it is

44:48

written by Steve Howes, it is called

44:50

upward athlete. So

44:52

it is about endurance training, especially for

44:54

mountains if you are going there. It

44:56

is not for everyone, the

44:59

one that I would suggest

45:01

is not a fitness book but a good book is

45:04

called outlive. Peter Attia,

45:06

it is a great book, tells

45:09

you more about your body and what you need to

45:11

do and why exercise. Are you also listening to his

45:13

podcast? I

45:17

have listened to war or two but the book,

45:20

I am a habitual reader. Is

45:24

there a physical product that you found

45:27

useful in your fitness journey? Gamin,

45:29

Gamin watch my watch. Because

45:32

it does a much better job than let's

45:35

say an Apple watch, is that the accuracy?

45:37

Plus long battery life, when

45:40

I am on the mountains, the Apple

45:42

watch doesn't work. Last question,

45:45

do you have any role models when it comes to fitness? Not

45:52

really. Thank

45:54

you Jadip, it has been a pleasure chatting. Thank you so

45:57

much for your time. Thank you. Thanks

45:59

very much. First Principles

46:01

is made possible with the efforts

46:03

of a wonderful team. Rajeev Sien,

46:05

a resident sound engineer who mixes

46:08

and masters our sound and audio

46:10

and Hari Krishna who produces and

46:12

researches the episodes. Also, we

46:14

at First Principles love feedback. So write to

46:16

us. Tell us what we can improve. How

46:18

else would we know? Guess

46:20

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46:23

should be asking. Even things you find

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46:27

to read it and almost always we

46:29

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46:33

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46:40

Please, please, please. On

46:42

that plaintiff note, I'm Rohan Dharmukhma, your

46:44

host, and I'll see you next Thursday. Stay

46:47

cool. Stay safe.