0:01

Ted Audio Collective Hello

0:07

Francis. Hey beautiful. Francis,

0:09

today we're going to talk about something every

0:11

organization needs to focus on at some point

0:13

in its life cycle, which is how to

0:16

tell the story of the work it's doing

0:18

to people outside the organization, which

0:20

is also known in certain circles as

0:23

communication strategy. Oh, indeed. So

0:26

just to kick this off, I

0:28

wanted to ask you, where do you see

0:30

people most often getting stuck on

0:32

this issue? Oh, it's when they

0:34

use overly complicated jargon. It's when they

0:36

use the jargon from inside the organization

0:38

and they translate it outside the organization.

0:40

Without a decoder ring? With

0:43

no decoder ring. And I'll tell you,

0:45

the one where I was

0:47

struck just so viscerally is I was

0:50

working with a cable company, and

0:53

they would refer to ARPUs. That's

0:56

an awkward acronym. Yeah, and it was, they

0:58

would do it in capital letters, capital R,

1:00

capital P, capital U, and

1:03

they just did it so conversationally, they would

1:05

do it internally, externally, and everyone knew. And

1:07

I finally had to say, what's

1:09

an ARPU? And I got two

1:11

responses. From one people said, oh, that's

1:13

what we mean by our customers. And I was

1:15

like, why do you call your customers ARPUs? Because

1:18

they're revenue paying units. Oh,

1:22

that really hurts. Yeah. Wow.

1:25

Do you remember how you solved that one?

1:27

Yes, I suggested that they were

1:29

animate. No,

1:32

actually, I get paid for, baby. It's that powerful

1:34

insight. Yeah, no, I actually do remember

1:37

my response at the time. I was like, do

1:39

your customers react like you're

1:41

making a two-dimensional caricature of them? And

1:44

their response was yes. And I said, I think I know why.

1:47

I love that. How about you? Where do you see

1:49

people getting stuck on the communication strategy? Yeah,

1:51

I would say one thing we

1:53

observe is this impulse to start

1:56

with Mount Everest in

1:58

terms of the Amazon. The shen

2:00

and complexity of the message when you

2:02

really need to start with a local

2:04

foothill Am and what I mean by

2:06

that is starting with the assumption that

2:08

you have to reach everybody everywhere all

2:10

at once with the great movie Chris

2:12

a great movie it's not a great

2:14

strategies ah and I think this is

2:16

one of the issues within to be

2:18

getting into Tibet. This

2:22

is six a lot. I'm And Morris. I'm

2:24

a company builder and leadership coach and I'm

2:26

Frances Fry. I'm a professor at the Harvard

2:28

Business School and I'm and twice. On

2:32

this show we believe that meaningful

2:34

change happens as anything is fixable

2:37

and solutions are often just a

2:39

single. Conversations Francis: Today we are

2:41

hosting Robin Steinberg. Robin is the

2:43

founder of the Bail Project, which

2:46

is a nonprofit organization that please

2:48

bell for people who care for

2:50

it and also advocates for policy

2:52

reform in the criminal justice system.

2:55

Well, So. Let's hear directly

2:57

from her. The

2:59

questions that we really have

3:02

is. One of message A.

3:05

The. Mission over Organizations to external partners

3:07

and his people who are interested

3:09

in this issue. Over the past

3:11

decade or a majority of Americans

3:13

have become increasingly aware that they

3:15

give a it's it's Criminal justice

3:17

system is in dire need of

3:20

reform. That. Date is clear

3:22

as A we know people see

3:24

the need for change. What we

3:27

are really finding though is that

3:29

when push comes to shove, people

3:31

are afraid of change. Have.

3:34

Been Sirens which is really what

3:36

crime is about which can be

3:38

easily exploited by misinformation and people

3:40

who are opposed. Change So Me:

3:43

Think about this problem. I think.

3:45

About how to we resolve the tension

3:47

between. Our desire to feel safe and

3:50

our desire for better justice in our

3:52

legal system. And. That's really

3:54

the question that I'm. I'm struggling. Where

3:56

is there something that we could be doing that

3:58

would be more and. All in

4:01

bringing people into this conversation

4:03

in a way that can

4:05

lead to leo long term

4:07

systemic change as. Wow!

4:09

This is a varsity sports The. City

4:13

Sports. Where did your head

4:15

down Francis you know on the

4:17

one hand I might oh my

4:19

goodness, Where I think a lot

4:21

of people's heads will go is

4:23

oh my goodness, there is rampant

4:25

crime and that would then cloud

4:28

my thinking about. Even reasonable

4:30

policies. Going after that. So

4:33

the I think this is like a

4:35

very big emotional hurdle to go over

4:37

before you can pour on any logic

4:39

of how to make the system better.

4:41

Totally, that's where my head was going

4:44

to as long as we're framing it

4:46

as a showdown between my need for

4:48

safety and my need for criminal justice

4:50

reform. Money for Safety is always gonna

4:52

win. So I think we really have.

4:54

To re same the problem here for the

4:57

to make some. Absolutely.

5:09

This episode is Bratty by Progressive Insurance.

5:12

Was. Comparing higher insurance rates was as easy

5:14

as putting on your favorite podcast. With Progressive

5:16

it is just visit the Progressive website to

5:18

quote with all the coverage as he want.

5:21

You'll see progress. Has direct rate than their

5:23

toll. Provide options from other companies so you

5:25

can compare. All you need to do is

5:27

use the rate and coverage you like. Quote

5:30

Today A progressive.com to join the over twenty

5:32

eight million drivers you trust. Progressive Progressive cancelled

5:34

he insurance company an affiliate comparison or it's

5:37

not available in officer situations. Prices vary based

5:39

on how you. I. Want

5:41

to tell you about a podcast

5:43

from our Colleagues at Work for

5:46

Business Review It's called Women at

5:48

Work. It's back for season Nine

5:50

to tackle some of women's hardest

5:52

career problems like Divorce a D

5:54

H D and True Masses Sillier

5:57

with expert guests, personal stories and

5:59

practical advice. rooted in real research.

6:01

Women at Work makes women's work lives

6:03

just a bit better. Listen for

6:05

free to HBR's Women at Work wherever

6:08

you get your podcasts. Robin,

6:13

welcome to Fixable. Well, thank you. I

6:15

am delighted to be here. So

6:17

this is a show about fixing things, which

6:20

is why you're one of our celebrity callers,

6:22

Robin. That

6:25

I've been throwing myself into cement walls trying to

6:27

fix them for a very long time. But

6:31

what problem did you set out to solve when you

6:33

started the bail project? So you

6:35

can intervene in lots of places

6:38

along the criminal justice system. They all need

6:40

changing and all need fixing, right? But

6:42

what I really wanted to focus on in this part

6:44

of my career was the front end.

6:47

How can we work on something that's

6:49

very concrete that might prevent

6:51

mass incarceration before it begins?

6:53

We have 3,000 local

6:55

jails across America. And in those 3,000

6:58

local jails, upwards of 60% of

7:02

people in those jails every single day

7:04

are there because they can't pay their

7:06

cash bail, not because they've been convicted

7:08

of a crime or they're serving sentence.

7:10

So it is the majority of people

7:12

in our local jails are there

7:14

because they don't have enough money to pay cash bail.

7:17

And so it really was an effort

7:20

to think about how do we eliminate

7:22

our reliance on cash bail in this

7:24

country. And so we set

7:26

out to address the humanitarian crisis by bailing

7:28

out as many people as we could over the past

7:30

five years. And we have to bail out about 30,000 people across

7:33

the country. But also collecting

7:35

the data to really be able to

7:37

make the case with evidence that you don't need

7:39

cash to ensure people will come back to court

7:41

because if we're paying the bail, nobody has any

7:44

skin in the game. It's not their money on

7:46

the line. So that was sort

7:48

of the idea was let's really think about

7:50

what a better pre-child justice system would

7:52

look like. That's more fair and take

7:54

money out of the system. But

7:57

the ultimate goal is to put ourselves out of business. The

7:59

ultimate goal is. to change cash bail

8:01

and eliminate it and work with

8:03

jurisdictions to stop relying on cash

8:06

to be the thing in the system that determines who's in and

8:08

who's out because that's just wrong. And when

8:11

you solve this problem, who

8:13

benefits? What's the

8:16

up-call for government rights? So

8:18

obviously the most immediate harm happens to

8:20

the person who's held in jail. Jail

8:22

is a horrifying place to be. It's

8:25

traumatic. It's violent. It causes

8:27

all sorts of physical and psychological harm to

8:29

the person being held in the jail cell. It

8:32

also causes harm to their life outside

8:34

and their family outside and their community.

8:37

Yeah. What has surprised you the most in

8:40

the journey of immersing yourself in these issues?

8:43

In particular, what surprised me is

8:45

how misunderstood the Preach

8:47

and Justice system is by most

8:50

Americans. Even thoughtful journalists

8:52

that I talk to will sometimes

8:54

fall into the trap of thinking that bail

8:56

got set because somebody was guilty of a crime.

8:58

And so you have to keep reminding people over

9:00

and over again, right? No, no, no. Bail

9:03

gets set by a judge before any evidence

9:05

has been brought to court. It's

9:07

just about a mechanism to ensure people

9:09

should come back to court. That's

9:11

what its purpose was. And people

9:13

really don't understand that because it's become

9:16

a proxy for let's hold people

9:18

in jail who might cause harm. The

9:20

good side is when you talk to people and

9:22

ask them, you know, should money be the thing

9:24

that determines who stays in jail and who goes

9:26

home free in the pre-child context? Almost

9:29

everybody agrees that money shouldn't be the thing

9:31

that determines that. So how does

9:33

your program work as an antidote

9:35

to some of these trends? So,

9:38

you know, we have a revolving bail fund that

9:40

we use to bail people out in the

9:42

different jurisdictions where we have teams. There are

9:44

local teams and local communities who do the

9:46

day in and day out work of introducing

9:48

people at the jail, determining who we can

9:50

pay bail for, paying the bail, supporting the

9:52

client when they come out, meaning giving them

9:55

court reminders and transportation if they need it.

9:57

And then the policy team and the rest

9:59

of our advocates really want to do that.

10:01

work hard to try and work towards change

10:03

either at the local city state level. Sometimes

10:06

that's legislative change, sometimes that's a

10:08

policy change. It is a substantial

10:10

number of people whose cases get

10:12

dismissed entirely once we intervene by paying bail.

10:15

So the voicemail you left us

10:17

was around messaging. We're

10:20

delighted to dig in there but I wanted

10:22

to pause and just ask how could this

10:24

conversation be most helpful to you today? Well

10:27

so my guess is that you all have

10:29

seen what happens when there is a

10:31

disconnect right between what the facts

10:34

are and what we know and what people

10:36

think and how they behave and

10:38

I'm curious whether there are things that you

10:40

have seen in other spaces and other industries

10:43

where you know the facts say this

10:45

right but somehow we can't get

10:47

people to be driven

10:49

by the facts and the evidence

10:52

and they continue to sort of be said

10:54

misinformation that fuels really bad

10:57

ideas. I don't know if you

10:59

can solve that problem you can probably fix our entire political

11:01

system. If you could have

11:07

anything you wanted as

11:10

an input to your work if

11:12

you think about it from the bench of you like leading an

11:16

army of change

11:18

right now what

11:20

would be most helpful to you? I

11:23

think there's a huge investment in

11:26

the communication strategy would

11:28

go a long way and like we

11:30

have a great communications team that obviously

11:32

is limited by funding so yes if

11:34

there we would love to see a

11:36

real investment in the communication strategy that

11:39

went national that would begin to change

11:41

hearts and minds. Awesome tell us

11:43

about that team. We have a fantastic communications

11:45

team who have been working since

11:48

day one on trying to think

11:51

about How do you

11:53

get the message out there and change

11:55

hearts and minds about our pretrial justice

11:57

system? So they do everything from how

11:59

human. The story is about the devastating

12:01

impacts of cash fail to also tell successful

12:03

so that people getting out in her they

12:05

succeed and thrive when they're out. We knew

12:08

the very beginning of the Barrel project by

12:10

know the bailing out people with going to.

12:12

Be crippling for permission but still was using communications

12:14

as a way to change hearts and. Minds

12:16

and eventually policy and how big is

12:18

at him. Ah we now I think

12:20

it is that is. One Two

12:22

three, four, People on the team nice

12:25

and how big is the team overall? Oh,

12:27

about one hundred and twenty five south across

12:29

the country. So. For

12:31

small in ah to swallow hard hit

12:33

a half the card is there. So

12:37

I think where we are is that. We

12:41

have a situation where there.

12:43

Were. The facts are on our side

12:46

as the this is it's a true

12:48

communication. Found that facts are on our

12:50

side. Yeah, And yet

12:52

we. Are. Struggling to

12:54

overcome the emotional hurdles

12:57

of other people receiving

12:59

them? Yes. To. It

13:01

at it's very simplest. it's a

13:03

communication problem and as it's deepest.

13:06

If we can change the way

13:09

people think, that will manifest in

13:11

new behavior. So I also I

13:13

think that you have a communication

13:15

problem and I also think communication

13:17

is the right solution because when

13:19

we can get this into the

13:22

minds of people. All. Of

13:24

the behaviors will start to be

13:26

different so I'm going to. It's

13:28

a very novel context, but it's

13:30

a very common problem. And

13:33

Simba. and if we the that

13:35

all that here and I'm optimistic

13:37

we can, we're going to solve

13:39

it for everyone else who doesn't

13:42

have quite such an extreme novel

13:44

context and the subset of it

13:46

is we have sex and we

13:48

have to penetrate emotions. Was.

13:52

That's a great sense I love that some yeah

13:54

yeah from what I also find my something

13:56

he a lot about Francis his. Favorite.

13:59

Rodgers were. Com the diffusion of

14:01

innovation which is all about. How.

14:04

Do good ideas get

14:06

adopted. By.

14:08

Sectors by People by communities and

14:11

the premise of the his work

14:13

with this really extraordinary is that

14:15

the facts and on and moss.

14:18

So having and as he starts

14:20

in. Law in actually

14:22

farming technology. Having a better

14:25

axe right is not enough

14:27

to get adoption and some

14:29

pretty good everywhere with at

14:31

including on my favorite. Is.

14:34

The devalued boiling water. As

14:37

a public health innovation and for know

14:39

that's one of the same as case

14:42

studies. So how does this idea disseminates

14:44

And what he found was there's a

14:46

pretty stable architecture for that diffusion of

14:49

innovation. Being defined as a better way to

14:51

do something. And. Wounded. The key

14:53

findings that has kind of seeped

14:55

into our vocabulary is that. It.

14:57

Doesn't make any sense to

15:00

waste your resources on. The

15:02

majority. Of the population,

15:05

you really want to go in order,

15:07

starting with the early adopters, So

15:10

in every community and Mrs what

15:12

he was able to show over

15:14

his his career is. The

15:16

way to get these ideas out

15:19

in the world is to start

15:21

with the people who are really

15:23

predisposed. To. Sink.

15:25

Their interesting And whether that's

15:27

early adopters inside the criminal

15:30

justice system? Whether it's early

15:32

adopters among policy. Can

15:35

we bring some real strategy?

15:38

And really focus our resources on the

15:40

people whose hearts and minds we are

15:42

most likely to win over at this

15:44

point. Mister what his research shows his

15:46

let's not try to win over everyone

15:48

because most the people were not can

15:51

be able to convince at this point

15:53

the sorry for those late adopters they

15:55

need to see all the other people.

15:57

Something on there are going to be

15:59

convened. Bar yeah, Robin's

16:02

Timers passionate. Storytelling

16:05

and presentation of the data. They're

16:07

going away. They're going to be

16:09

were on the sidelines until they

16:11

see other people getting on board.

16:13

Yeah, let me offer an alternative

16:16

to related but an alternative. Pit

16:18

ends Pro twitches I think the.

16:20

You need to partner with the

16:22

police because. The

16:25

police should. Be.

16:28

On your side with it. But.

16:30

They're emotionally know, like

16:32

even. If this

16:34

is viewed as soft on crime it's

16:37

it's the incorrect view on it. So

16:39

if you can tell a compelling story

16:41

that can get and we don't have

16:43

to go to the most extreme. Police

16:46

but see open. Minded

16:48

part of the police. If we can

16:50

say it to then you're going to

16:52

be able to affect everyone else. Another

16:54

way to describe those people, fences or

16:56

early adopters idea is that I think

16:58

it over by a set of try

17:00

to do and a slightly more accessible

17:02

language. But I want

17:04

to that wants to defend our audience.

17:07

Didn't get to see your eyes pop

17:09

out of your head when I said

17:11

it, the partner with the police you

17:13

are very politely he of us sit

17:15

nonverbal urban because I don't see any

17:17

reason why. Except for emotional

17:19

ones. Why Police wouldn't want

17:22

this to occur? I

17:24

think there are right testing audience to

17:27

do it and when we can tell

17:29

a story that they're like of course

17:31

how can we help. Then

17:35

we will get everyone else so

17:37

I first want to hear your

17:39

reaction to that and then I

17:42

have a bunch of ideas of

17:44

how to do it so they

17:46

get a one of the surprises

17:48

has been. We have developed some

17:50

substantial. And really positive partnerships with

17:52

a jail administrator. For.

17:54

It so that that the police but

17:56

as long as are split the. The

17:58

the been really. Have a

18:01

partner is in lots of

18:03

places am I think that's in

18:05

large measure because. There

18:07

are tasked with the job

18:09

of managing jails that are

18:12

overcrowded under resource terrible for

18:14

the people stuck in them

18:16

including the Sas. Their staff.

18:19

Arm and they look in and.

18:21

They can see. oh I don't

18:23

know. why is that seven months

18:26

pregnant woman who stole something is

18:28

in here on cast fail. Can't

18:30

somebody get her? And so they

18:32

have one and up in lots

18:35

of jurisdictions being really good partners

18:37

for us. Because the so let's see

18:39

of proximity of problem I see as a

18:41

lotta love i it so also lied for

18:44

spent more generally instead of police. It's fine

18:46

and so let's say that the earliest doctors

18:48

to and point or chair administrator is I

18:51

think we're going to get a move. Or

18:53

not up the tree, but across the forest

18:55

when we do this. But as his. So

18:57

let's say we're partnering with jail

19:00

administrator for her, you ask me?

19:02

Who will be magnificent storytellers? Think

19:04

he wanted to be law enforcement.

19:08

I want. I think you

19:10

want law enforcement to be

19:12

telling your story because then

19:14

it's not saw. It can't

19:16

be misunderstood as soft on

19:18

crime his own. I'm very

19:20

much praising. Having

19:22

you Don't Tell administrators

19:25

in uniform. Talking.

19:28

About why this is best

19:30

for the criminal justice system.

19:34

and it is best for

19:36

the criminal justice system or

19:38

less i would say let's

19:40

partner with jail administrators and

19:42

and here's then the components

19:44

of the story yeah i

19:46

think that i think it's

19:48

has great like you have

19:50

done something exceptional you now

19:52

have the data said now

19:54

it is simply a matter

19:56

of communicating and the messenger

19:58

matters which is why I

20:00

want someone in uniform. I don't

20:03

even know if jail administrators wear uniforms, but if they

20:05

do, I want it there. Because for

20:07

several reasons, one of which is that

20:09

their system is improved by this. You

20:12

have a solution that is quite

20:14

literally better for everyone except for

20:17

people that profit off of this.

20:21

And they're not one of our art constituents.

20:23

And so it's almost like I want the

20:25

extreme example of someone who we would never

20:27

expect to be on site, but even they

20:29

will be better off. Even they are not

20:32

holding these people and spending this money. And

20:34

what could they do? And then now

20:36

we're in a

20:38

position where we have a

20:41

proven solution that works.

20:44

And the only thing I will

20:46

put on our radar is

20:48

that when people have

20:50

an emotional obstacle, we sometimes try

20:53

to double down with facts. There's

20:56

no stack of facts that

20:59

can penetrate the emotions and

21:01

you need bilingual people. So

21:03

your world-class communications team, I

21:05

want them to be expert in the logical

21:08

part of the argument. And I want them

21:10

to be expert in the emotional part of

21:12

the argument. And the reason I want the

21:14

jail administrator is as much for the emotional

21:16

part of the argument, which

21:18

wouldn't necessarily fall out of the logical.

21:21

But because so many people have an

21:23

emotional obstacle, we need bilingual, logical

21:26

and emotional as part

21:28

of this. So I can

21:30

imagine as a next step, bringing

21:33

your awesome bilingual

21:35

communications team and sitting down

21:38

with jail administrators that you've

21:40

already know and saying,

21:43

how can we co-create a narrative

21:47

for why this is a

21:50

useful thing? And I know the jail administrator is

21:52

going to be able to reach people that you

21:54

probably won't be

21:58

able to reach. And

22:00

it's the same set of facts. We're just

22:02

honoring the fact that there's the emotional

22:04

side to it. I love this. So

22:07

great. I love it because it is this

22:10

issue should be bipartisan. This issue

22:12

really is one that should appeal

22:14

to everybody. And somehow

22:17

it gets caught up in the ideology

22:19

wars. And frankly, you know,

22:21

our partnerships with jail administrators was we

22:23

hadn't really thought about it in the

22:26

communications lane or the change lane as

22:28

much as we'd thought about it in

22:30

the operational need. I was going to

22:32

say, side note, I would be broadcasting

22:35

in every conversation that this your solution

22:37

was co-produced. We'd be in partnership with

22:39

a law enforcement. Yeah. Amazing.

22:41

So here's my one final tactical thought.

22:45

I have no doubt that you have

22:47

four extraordinary best in class

22:49

communications professionals on the project from the

22:51

detail that you shared. I

22:54

would love to somehow supplement that team

22:56

in a way that's going to be

22:58

cost efficient to you. Every

23:01

great advertising agency that I know

23:03

takes on a small number of

23:05

pro bono projects that

23:07

the team really believes in. And

23:11

so I think

23:13

as homework, I

23:15

would also charge you and

23:18

or your team with the past. And

23:20

the listeners of this right now. I know

23:22

I was exactly work

23:24

at said advertising agency of

23:26

finding a partner as a

23:29

pro bono client as a

23:31

pro bono client who really

23:33

thinks about bringing

23:35

messages, bringing messages

23:37

to the general public that will

23:39

really spur action. Can

23:42

we bring that team into the new

23:44

framing? Yeah. How do

23:46

we integrate all of the different

23:48

stakeholders into telling the story? Great

23:51

idea. So fun. So smart. We

23:54

really appreciate it. You're

23:58

right. That is just sort of we think. I

24:00

think sometimes in terms of influencers

24:02

and athletes and, you know, and

24:04

musicians who are all

24:06

amazing. And I think you need all of those voices, but

24:09

had not really thought about

24:12

bringing that team into really thinking

24:14

about how might we do some of

24:16

the communications with unlikely voices.

24:19

Police chiefs, jail administrators.

24:22

That are enormous stakeholders in

24:24

this. Yeah. Robin,

24:27

this has been such a pleasure. For me

24:29

as well. We are team

24:31

Robin. We are team Bail Project.

24:33

Really. Thank you. This

24:42

show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Around

24:45

New Year's, it's easy to get distracted

24:47

by changing ourselves. What

24:49

if instead we simply built on what we're

24:51

already doing right? Maybe you've

24:53

figured out that tricky client deal and

24:55

now you're ready to tackle another. Or

24:57

maybe you're making strides, building trust with

25:00

your team, and you want to take

25:02

on more responsibility as a leader. Therapy

25:04

helps you find your strength so you can

25:07

ditch the new year, new me resolutions and

25:09

make changes that really stick. I

25:11

can't remember a time in my adult

25:13

life when I haven't had

25:15

a therapist on the team. And it's

25:18

been a huge part in helping me

25:20

find my growth edge and build

25:23

the life that I want to

25:25

live. If you're thinking

25:27

of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a

25:29

try. It's entirely online and specifically

25:31

designed to be convenient, flexible, and

25:34

suited to your schedule. You can

25:36

fill out a brief questionnaire to

25:38

get matched with a licensed therapist

25:40

and switch therapists anytime for no

25:42

additional charge. Celebrate

25:45

the progress you've already made. Visit

25:47

betterhelp.com/fixable today to get 10%

25:50

off your first month. That's

25:54

betterhelp.com/fixable. Frances,

25:58

something that always surprises me is how... how

26:00

quickly projects can get derailed by the

26:02

lack of organization. Oh my gosh, yes.

26:04

I mean, not mine. No,

26:07

not yours. But yes, information

26:09

overload, multiple stakeholders, shifting timelines.

26:12

Anne and I love big ideas, and

26:15

big ideas take a lot of coordination.

26:17

Luckily, Miro is here to help. Miro

26:20

is an online visual workspace that

26:22

helps teams streamline workflows, organize information,

26:24

and keep everyone on the same

26:26

page, no matter how big the

26:29

dream. We use Miro

26:31

to coordinate across multiple teams in

26:33

the making of this podcast, from

26:35

conversations about timelines, to season

26:38

maps, to marketing brainstorms. We

26:40

love Miro's flexibility as a

26:42

project management tool. Find simplicity

26:44

in your most complex projects

26:47

with Miro. Your first three

26:49

Miro boards are free when

26:51

you sign up today at

26:53

miro.com/podcast. That's three free boards

26:56

at miro.com/podcast. Where

27:00

does it leave you, Frances? So many

27:02

good places, quite honestly. One

27:05

of which is we can come

27:07

up with such great solutions, and we can lose

27:09

it in the communication. It just means we gotta

27:12

do the thing, and then we have to be

27:14

able to communicate the thing, and

27:16

they both need to be done. And

27:18

I think I may even believe this even more

27:20

strongly than you do, in the sense that it

27:23

is just as important, if not more important than

27:25

the innovation itself. I'm

27:28

gonna go 50-50. Yeah, and it is

27:30

often a secondary thought

27:32

for innovators. And

27:36

all of it fits in our move fast and

27:38

fix things approach. And these things

27:40

do need to be done in sequence. I

27:42

also loved the part of the, how

27:45

many of the stakeholders, like the leader sometimes

27:47

can't be the same person, but

27:49

the jail administrators can participate in both

27:51

parts. And I do think that sometimes

27:55

on our communication, we get

27:57

afraid of our biggest critics.

28:00

When we can actually include our biggest

28:03

critics, it's so much more powerful sort

28:05

of minds the of the story of

28:07

Dominoes that we wrote about where when

28:09

dominoes wanted to do with turn around

28:11

fast customers, What's wrong with our peter

28:13

and then what did they do with

28:16

it? They put it on the ticker

28:18

in Times Square. We

28:21

saw yeah I mean it's it's it's an

28:23

interesting case production like as the Us and

28:25

talk about coal production on the operation sides

28:27

but whole production on this on that were

28:29

yelling ah and. The Camino Snide. I

28:31

think those examples a really powerful and

28:33

yeah that that The Dominoes story was

28:35

a moment in time when they hints

28:38

come around to the fact that the

28:40

pizza did know his. Very good

28:42

as yesterday. There was a

28:44

lettuce data supporting that and

28:46

the team really? Decided

28:49

to bring. Consumers.

28:52

Into the challenge of

28:55

making that. Pizza.

28:57

Better and they have been. They use

28:59

that story to galvanize the whole organization.

29:01

Six of them puts me puts consumer

29:04

comments on a billboard in Times Square

29:06

and it which is it just was

29:08

running of as if he's a pro.

29:10

That guy plays ascribed to act like

29:12

hard. Work on the Princess. And

29:15

was really powerful because then we're

29:17

also super invested it's authenticity I

29:20

also then authentic yeah I hope

29:22

our listeners get these it to

29:24

girl nature of communication out of

29:27

this and that we can cope

29:29

reduce in both the operations and

29:31

the communication and said they are

29:34

amazing public servants of hair and

29:36

the have any pro. Bono Moscow

29:38

and be of service to them

29:41

and love it! Thanks

29:43

for listening every one we wanna hear from

29:45

you to. If you want to figure out

29:48

a workplace prom together, send us a message.

29:50

Email us at that civil it's had that

29:52

com or collison two three. Four Fixable. That's

29:54

Two, three, four, three, four nine, Two

29:56

to five, Three. The

30:06

Moment Brought here by The Tide Audio

30:09

Collective. It's hosted by me and Morris

30:11

and me Francis Nice. Our team includes

30:13

Isabel Critters, Constanza Get Hundred. El

30:16

Video Gene Pot, Grace Rubinstein,

30:18

Sarah Next, Michelle, Clint, Corey

30:20

Hey Jim Alla Hundred Salazar,

30:22

Ban Ban Chang and Roxanne.

30:24

Side this episode with Next and Louis.

30:27

It's very hard if you're enjoying the

30:29

show. Make sure to subscribe wherever you

30:31

get your package. In

30:34

still send a check and were more

30:36

saying if you can please take a

30:38

second to leave. Us a movie and. Didn't

30:40

really help has made the great. Show and

30:42

it totally health the search algorithm.