0:01

Ted Audio Collective. Hey

0:07

everybody, the Fixable team is

0:09

taking a short break before we bring you

0:11

new episodes in the new year. But

0:14

don't worry, we'll still be sharing plenty of

0:16

great content to help you be your best

0:18

self at work and beyond. Today

0:20

we're delighted to share that we were

0:22

on one of our favorite podcasts. It's

0:25

called What's Your Problem? In

0:27

What's Your Problem, Jacob Goldstein, who you

0:30

may have heard hosting Planet Money, sits

0:32

down with entrepreneurs and engineers to talk about

0:35

the future they're trying to build and

0:37

the problems they have to solve to get there. We

0:40

were so thrilled to sit with Jacob and talk

0:42

about our work and share our story. So

0:44

we hope you enjoy it. You can

0:46

listen to What's Your Problem? wherever you're listening to

0:48

this. Today's

0:51

episode is brought to you by

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vary. as

2:00

countries and economies emerged from the

2:02

pandemic. But rather than

2:05

rebuilding the same old systems and

2:07

the same old problems, we

2:09

called for a reboot. I'm

2:11

your host, Ravi Agrawal, Foreign

2:13

Policy's Editor-in-Chief. Here on

2:16

Global Reboot, I sit with some

2:18

of the smartest thinkers and doers

2:20

around, and we push for solutions.

2:22

This season, we're looking at

2:25

resetting the US-China relationship, dealing

2:27

with the rise of AI, preserving

2:30

our oceans, and much more. Check

2:32

out Global Reboot in partnership with

2:34

the Doha Forum, wherever you get

2:36

your podcasts. I

2:42

recently talked with Francis Fry and

2:44

Anne Morris. I'm Francis Fry. I'm

2:46

a professor at the Harvard Business School, and

2:49

I'm married to Anne. I'm Anne

2:51

Morris. I'm a company builder and

2:54

a leadership coach, and the

2:56

marriage is mutual and consensual.

2:59

Thank goodness. We are married to each other. Francis

3:01

and Anne also work together. They're

3:03

the co-founders of a training and

3:06

consulting company called the Leadership Consortium.

3:08

They specialize in helping leaders build

3:11

trust. They also co-host a podcast

3:13

called Fixable. And there is this

3:15

particular project that they worked on.

3:18

In fact, it's the project that inspired them

3:20

to start their company. And I found this

3:22

project so surprising and so illuminating that I

3:24

wanted to have them on the show to

3:26

talk about it. I'm

3:33

Jacob Goldstein. This is What's Your Problem. And

3:35

Francis and Anne are here today to tell

3:37

the story of their work with Uber. It

3:40

starts back in 2017 at

3:43

what was maybe the lowest point for

3:45

the company. Francis and Anne

3:47

got involved when a Harvard Business School

3:49

alum who was working at Uber came

3:51

to Francis and said the company needed

3:53

her help. He

3:55

said, will you come and meet my CEO,

3:57

Travis Galnick? And I said, no. No.

4:01

My first instinct was no. And I

4:03

was like, I read the newspapers. It sounds terrible.

4:06

And then she said, please, as a personal

4:08

favor, he is not the person that

4:10

you're reading about. Will you come and meet

4:12

with him? And so it was entirely as

4:15

a favor that I flew out

4:17

to meet Travis. And what was,

4:19

before you met him, what was your

4:21

impression, not having met him, of Travis

4:24

Kalanick? It sounded like he

4:26

didn't care, was out

4:28

of touch, created a very horrific

4:32

climate for women and not awesome

4:34

for others as well. So we

4:36

help good people do hard things,

4:40

but we don't help bad people. And so I was

4:42

like, I'm not going to work with him, but I'll

4:44

come out and meet him as a favor to you. So

4:47

you go fly out and what happens? Yes.

4:49

It was a two hour meeting. It

4:51

lasted three days. And I

4:53

found him thoughtful, rigorous, open.

5:00

I adored

5:03

him. By the end, I was

5:06

down for the count. So that is truly

5:09

surprising. You're not kidding.

5:12

Because he came across very, the

5:14

two things I really like are

5:16

rigor and optimism. And he was

5:18

super rigorous and super

5:20

optimistic. And

5:22

then he said, and I need

5:25

help. The last company I ran had

5:27

eight people. And how big is

5:29

Uber at this point? Wow.

5:33

Okay. And so you're

5:35

in? Well, he was like, you

5:37

need to come and work here full time. And

5:39

I'm like, I'm never leaving Harvard, but I'll consult for

5:42

you. He's like, no, no, no, we need all of

5:44

you. So I

5:46

left there and came home and asked, you

5:49

know, told Ann about it and was like, what

5:52

do you think about my taking

5:54

a leave from HBS and going

5:56

and working there full time? And

5:58

Ann, what did you say? That's a ridiculous

6:00

idea. Go

6:03

on. I mean, I think

6:06

we sat with it for a

6:08

good week or so. But

6:10

where we got to is if we can

6:12

make it work at Uber and if

6:15

we can make some of these ideas that we're kind

6:18

of batting around, if we can

6:20

really test them at Uber and

6:22

if they can work there, then they can work

6:24

anywhere. These kinds of

6:26

issues tend to, I don't

6:29

think I'm overstating it, but paralyze some

6:33

entrepreneurs who are

6:35

building great companies and get really stuck

6:38

on this stuff. And so the

6:40

opportunity to show the world not only

6:43

how to make progress on these issues,

6:45

but that you can make progress on these issues

6:47

was also super energizing. So okay.

6:50

So you take the job and like, what

6:53

is the problem you're setting out to fix at Uber or

6:56

problems? Yeah. So two

6:58

sides. The problems at any

7:00

organization are always only

7:02

two things, achievement and or

7:04

sentiment. And

7:07

the business working and do people feel good about

7:09

it? Is that what that means? Yes.

7:12

And it had both problems. And

7:15

the sentiment was really rough. And

7:18

the achievement was also, they were magnificent in

7:21

some ways, but this was the era when

7:23

costs were greater than

7:25

revenue. They were losing money. Yeah.

7:29

And that can seduce you into thinking

7:31

all kinds of things that are upside down

7:33

are right side up. And so

7:35

that's where the strategy came. They were growing

7:37

really fast. That is that complicated Silicon Valley

7:39

thing of like incredible growth, but

7:41

like they're selling every dollar for 75 cents. And

7:43

lots of people, it turns out, will buy a

7:45

dollar if it costs 75 cents. Yes. And

7:48

I don't know if it's so complicated. I don't

7:50

think it's that complicated either. I think

7:53

that if you get venture

7:55

capitalists that are willing to take their money

7:57

and put it in the pockets of riders.

8:00

it turns out, that can last

8:02

a long time. But

8:04

that's what we went in is sort of, when we talk

8:07

about stress... So that's the achievement problem

8:09

is they're losing money. What specifically was

8:11

the sentiment problem? Oh, goodness.

8:15

It was a culture of, I'll

8:18

give you an example. If one person was going

8:20

to give someone else feedback at Uber, it was

8:23

an arms race of how cutting the feedback

8:25

could be. Huh. So they

8:27

were mean? They were... Cruel.

8:31

Yeah, there was a... But not

8:33

with the intention of

8:35

cruelty, but yes, it came across as

8:37

cruel. It also... A lot

8:39

of people had their first job here. And so

8:41

when I got there, and I would talk to

8:44

women in particular, the

8:46

climate that they were enduring

8:48

was something like the following.

8:51

A woman's the only woman on an

8:53

engineering team. She's

8:55

working really hard. She's going to stay late

8:57

to work on something. She asks a colleague

8:59

if he'll stay late with her and he'll

9:01

say, yeah, as long as you sleep

9:03

with me. She

9:05

reacts and he says, just

9:08

kidding. You know, like

9:10

the tyranny of just kidding, there was a

9:12

lot of just kidding there.

9:14

And so no

9:17

one had taught anyone

9:20

how to manage and

9:22

how to lead. So if... I mean,

9:24

there were a thousand problems, literally, 1,000

9:27

complaints, and more than 90% of

9:29

them had to do

9:31

with the interaction between someone and their manager. There

9:34

were 3,000 managers. So they were either 3,000

9:37

bad people or something

9:39

systematically was going on that

9:42

we were not setting anyone up for success.

9:45

So when do you start

9:47

wearing the Uber shirt every day? So

9:50

I got there and I was, you know,

9:52

Anne and I were excited and

9:54

I was really proud of the mission. I

9:56

was proud of the work ethic. I was

9:58

proud of... of the

10:00

intelligence of everyone. And

10:03

so I was proud to be there and I got there and

10:06

everyone was ashamed to work there. There

10:08

were all the newspaper things like Delete

10:10

Uber and there

10:12

was videos on the web of

10:14

the CEO that weren't good. And

10:16

so people were embarrassed. They wouldn't,

10:18

when they got into an Uber car, they wouldn't admit

10:20

that they, to the driver, they worked at Uber. Oh,

10:24

so you're saying people who worked at Uber would

10:26

get into an Uber and wouldn't tell the driver

10:28

they worked at Uber because the driver would think

10:30

they're a bad person for working at Uber. Yes,

10:33

they stopped going to parties because

10:36

the topic of conversation was always

10:38

Uber and it was embarrassing for them. So

10:41

they had real shame. And so what

10:43

I said is, I'm

10:45

so proud of what we're all intending

10:48

to do. I'm gonna wear

10:50

an Uber t-shirt until everyone else

10:53

regained his pride because there used to

10:55

be the pride in the organization. And

10:57

so you're wearing it Monday to Friday,

10:59

you're wearing it Saturday and Sunday. And

11:01

tell me, as the partner of the person. Yeah,

11:05

this wasn't an ideal part of the commitment. I'm

11:07

not sure you had, I did not clear it

11:09

with you. This many moves ahead on the chessboard.

11:11

No. Yeah, there

11:13

were a couple of awkward family moments. We

11:15

went to a fancy party where

11:18

you had to dress up and Francis

11:20

wore an Uber t-shirt underneath a jacket.

11:23

But indeed I did. No, I promised to wear

11:25

an Uber. Like you could see it, like a

11:27

blazer. For sure, for sure. The commitment

11:30

was real. So,

11:34

okay, so you've got the shirt, and you've got

11:36

the problem. After the break,

11:39

solving the problem and getting to the

11:41

point where Francis finally feels like she

11:44

can stop wearing an Uber shirt every

11:46

single day. Now,

11:52

back to the show. So,

11:55

okay, you got your shirt, you're fired up.

11:57

What's the first sort of key thing you

11:59

do? to try and make

12:03

people like Uber better. Yeah.

12:06

So the first thing was to

12:08

teach the entire organization how to

12:10

build and more importantly in their case,

12:12

rebuild trust and how to do it quickly. So

12:15

in the presence of trust, everything

12:18

goes faster and higher. So

12:20

if you get trust, nobody's

12:23

gonna re-litigate the decision afterwards, you get

12:25

to stay on one thing. And

12:27

in the absence of trust, people are gonna ask you

12:29

to compromise way more than you should otherwise. So

12:32

when we're teaching about trust, what we're

12:34

doing is delivering on the promise that

12:36

you can go faster and further. So

12:39

our collaboration will be better, our

12:41

innovation will be better. In

12:44

the presence of trust, everything is better.

12:46

In the absence of trust, it's

12:50

a miserable place to be. It

12:52

starts, it stops, we go one

12:54

step forward, two steps back. So

12:58

trust is, we find, trust is

13:00

the foundation for all human progress.

13:03

So that's the abstraction. What

13:05

is a specific thing you do to that end?

13:08

Well, you determine is

13:11

trust breaking down for one of three reasons.

13:13

Turns out there's three pillars of trust. And

13:16

in Uber's case, the reason was

13:19

empathy at every turn. So

13:21

you can be awesome, but if you're

13:23

not empathetic, we're not gonna trust you. I

13:26

mean, you say there's three pillars of trust. I gotta

13:28

say, okay, if empathy is one, what

13:30

are the other two? Logic and

13:34

authenticity. So if you

13:36

think about it in terms of a person's

13:38

relationship to their manager, they are thinking, does

13:41

what my boss says make sense? Is

13:43

it logical? Is my

13:45

boss a phony? Are they just giving

13:48

me a smokescreen? That's authenticity. And does my boss

13:50

care about me? I mean, is that- Exactly. Okay.

13:53

And care about my success. In

13:56

this job. the

14:00

people at Uber in your estimation,

14:03

in your finding, were logical

14:06

and authentic. They just didn't care

14:08

about the people they worked with. And

14:11

it was for the employees. It was

14:13

also for the regulators. It was

14:16

also for the

14:18

investors. So they

14:20

were not caring about the regulators with

14:22

sort of Uber's brand, right? Like that

14:24

was, I don't quite want to say their

14:27

secret sauce, but kind of, right? Well, it was. Going

14:29

into cities where, you know, to

14:31

be fair to Uber, it seemed like the taxi cab

14:35

cartels had the regulators kind of in their

14:37

pockets in a lot of places. So in

14:39

a way, being not empathetic to the regulators,

14:42

there was a logic to it from Uber's point of view. Absolutely.

14:45

And so the question is, is

14:48

what got you here, what's going to take you

14:50

there? And they

14:53

were magnificent at not being empathetic

14:55

to the regulators. And that spilled

14:57

over to many aspects of the

15:00

organization. So you've identified now

15:02

in more detail, okay, this is what's

15:04

wrong. How do you fix

15:06

it? Yeah. So two things. One, we

15:09

created a curriculum. So

15:12

I got friends of mine from

15:14

Harvard, and we created a remote

15:16

curriculum, half of it leadership, half

15:18

of it strategy, to

15:20

teach people how to do things. And

15:22

it was for the 3000 managers, we thought, you

15:25

know, maybe 500 people would show

15:27

up. 6000 people. 6000

15:32

out of 3000. Yes. So

15:34

all of the managers, basically, and a lot

15:37

of other people. Yes. Okay, that's interesting. Like,

15:39

it seems like the problem is, everybody was

15:41

being mean, essentially,

15:44

to each other. How

15:46

does like online courses actually get people

15:48

to not be mean? Like, it seems

15:51

weird to me, maybe I've just had bad online

15:53

courses in my work life. Well, let

15:55

me let me let me add a little let me add a

15:57

little context, which I think is material here into a lot of

16:00

the organizations we work in. It

16:03

was very clear to the organization that

16:05

plan A wasn't working. And

16:09

that this they had not collectively built

16:11

a culture where people were surviving. And

16:15

so the motivation for behavior

16:17

change is partly why we

16:19

like working with organizations that are at this

16:21

point in their life cycle. There's some kind

16:23

of crisis because people are really leaning

16:26

in to changing and

16:28

are very in touch with the potential

16:30

payoff. Is there a

16:32

particular time you remember and when you were

16:34

talking to Francis about what was happening, like

16:36

any specific conversations? Come on, come on. Yeah,

16:39

Francis had, do you remember

16:41

the robot? We had experimented with an, it was actually

16:44

called the WannaTron, difficult product

16:46

name. But the WannaTron

16:48

was the height of a human sitting in

16:50

a chair essentially. So it would wheel up

16:52

to the dinner table. Francis would join us

16:54

for dinner and then we would often

16:57

be brave. And it had like

16:59

a little, like an iPad for a face or

17:01

something like that. Exactly. So Francis

17:03

could be there for us. Bad?

17:07

Sexually? It would

17:09

take maybe three minutes for you and the

17:11

boys to stop interacting with like a robot

17:13

and it was as if I was there.

17:16

Yeah. Okay. I

17:18

do remember coming home, you know, a

17:21

little bit late at night, keeping

17:23

the babysitter a little late, cats

17:25

away, Jacob, you know, and

17:28

pulling into the driveway and the

17:30

WannaTron was just waiting in the

17:32

window. But

17:36

you were super excited. I mean, I

17:39

can remember the image. You

17:41

were super excited and

17:43

you had just finished a class and it had gone

17:46

really well. You can

17:48

tell. I mean, you can tell in the classroom

17:51

when there's the energy

17:53

of engagement and that can get really

17:55

infectious even in these digital

17:58

classrooms. it

18:00

had worked and you basically were like, you

18:02

know, honey, I think we're on to something.

18:06

That's when I knew it was fixable. So

18:10

at some point, Travis

18:12

Kalanick gets, I don't know if he was

18:14

fired, pushed out. He definitely gets pushed out of the company.

18:16

Nine days in. Say that

18:18

again? Nine days in. Nine days

18:21

after you took the full-time job? He

18:23

sweet-talked you and then he was gone. It

18:25

wasn't his idea to leave. No,

18:27

it was really sudden and a

18:29

surprise. And

18:33

he said to me, he said,

18:35

you know, in my absence, please

18:38

do this. Act in the best... Because I

18:40

was like, what can I do to be helpful to you? And he

18:42

said, you can be helpful to me by doing things in the best

18:44

interest of Uber. And so

18:46

that's what I did. So

18:49

let's talk about what else you did. There's

18:51

the course. There was

18:54

one detail that I read about that

18:56

was really interesting to me and it was about how

18:59

people behaved in meetings. Tell

19:03

me about that. Yeah. And I think

19:05

this was illustrative of the

19:07

large empathy wobble, we would say, at

19:10

the organization. So in the

19:12

senior team, it was not

19:14

a safe place. And by

19:16

that, I mean when people were

19:19

speaking, they were like nervous and

19:21

looking at and that

19:23

couldn't quite... Even in like C-suite people. Even

19:25

in C-suite. No, no, no. Even

19:27

in C-suite. Then what I found

19:29

out is that they were texting

19:32

one another about the person

19:34

who was speaking. In

19:37

the room. In the room. And they all knew

19:39

that they were doing it? And they all knew

19:41

it, which was creating... Like if you want to

19:44

create an environment that's not safe, just start doing

19:46

that. Guaranteed to make

19:48

it not safe. That was shocking.

19:51

And super common, we came to discover. Yeah. Super

19:54

common. Wait, and super common. In the tech industry.

19:57

Everybody does that and everybody knows everybody. everybody's

20:00

doing that? I don't think that's

20:02

an unfair statement. It was at that

20:04

time. At that time it... That's

20:07

so weird. It's so weird. I have to say

20:09

I had exactly the reaction that you did. So

20:12

set a norm because I was facilitating the senior

20:14

team. The board asked me to do it in

20:16

between the CEOs. And

20:18

I said, for our meetings, we're going to have technology off in a

20:20

way. Now we

20:22

do that in the Harvard classroom. Meaning no

20:25

phones, no laptops? It turned out

20:27

that when you remove the

20:29

distractions, we actually

20:31

got an unprecedented amount of work

20:33

done. Like we did... We... I

20:36

don't think Uber ever got more done than

20:38

over that summer. So it

20:41

started an incredible improvement

20:43

trajectory. So I'll give you another example

20:45

of something that we did. They were

20:47

not very good at giving each other

20:49

feedback. And I know as

20:51

an operations professor, if I give

20:54

you effective feedback, you will improve at

20:56

a dramatically improved rate. So

20:59

my ability to give you feedback is

21:01

actually going to be a great big

21:03

influence on your improvement. The

21:06

way they gave feedback often made people worse. So

21:08

not only did it not make them better. Well, once we

21:10

taught them how to do it, and

21:13

not only did it help other people improve,

21:15

but it improved the culture, what

21:17

we did. Is there an example

21:19

of helping

21:22

people give better feedback? Oh,

21:24

yeah. Yeah. Like one specific

21:26

thing. Sure. So if I

21:28

want you to improve, the

21:31

ideal ratio of positive

21:33

reinforcement, that is do

21:36

more of this, to constructive

21:38

advice, do it differently. The

21:40

ideal ratio is five to one. Huh.

21:44

So you say five good things that the person

21:46

did and one thing they could improve on. And

21:48

at Uber, it was zero to 10. So

21:53

by doing that, it unleashed all

21:56

of this amazing improvement

21:59

and... We were catching

22:01

people doing things right in sincere and

22:03

specific ways. It can't be performed whenever

22:05

you lose that authenticity thing. So

22:08

the culture improved and the improvement improved

22:10

and this happens overnight.

22:13

Was there a moment when you felt

22:17

like you had done it? Was there a moment when you

22:19

took off the shirt? Yeah. I

22:22

took off the shirt nine

22:25

months in. And was there some thing?

22:30

What was the last thing? What was the thing that,

22:32

why didn't you take it off at eight months? What was the last

22:35

thing you had to do to take off the shirt? Yeah.

22:38

I mean, the thing that was most gratifying to

22:40

you, if I recall, is

22:43

seeing Uber t-shirts on the street

22:46

of San Francisco. Everywhere. Everywhere.

22:48

You just walk in and it would

22:50

have to be like a nighttime

22:53

horror story to tell people what it used

22:56

to be like because you couldn't imagine it

22:58

being like that anymore. You didn't need

23:00

to wear the shirt anymore because everybody else was wearing it. And

23:03

that, by the way, is when I stopped working there

23:05

full time because I also didn't need to be there

23:07

full time anymore. And

23:09

what do you think when Frances first

23:11

took off the shirt? There

23:14

was, Jacob, there was great relief as

23:18

her spouse, as her collaborator,

23:20

which I think it was by the end

23:22

of this story that you had sold me

23:24

and about midway through that you were really

23:26

putting the pressure on. We should go and

23:29

do this together. I

23:31

was intrigued. Tell me more

23:33

about that. So you're saying this story, when

23:36

Frances was working at Uber, was when Ann,

23:38

you really decided that you and Frances should

23:40

go work together as consultants.

23:42

Yeah. Well, we started a

23:45

company that was very informed

23:48

by this experience that was focused

23:50

on removing barriers to

23:52

impact and advancement for

23:56

people, particularly in tech, and the mission has expanded.

23:58

And so that was a great question. And

24:00

particularly for women, people of color, LGBTQ,

24:02

like the people for whom the harms

24:05

were most likely to be done, what we

24:08

decided to do is instead of going and

24:10

helping one company at a time, we started

24:12

a company where we could bring people in

24:15

and help many companies at once. And

24:17

that exists until today,

24:20

all focusing on the education

24:22

part and has been

24:25

enormously successful in unleashing individuals

24:27

and the organizations. We'll

24:33

be back in a minute with the lightning round. That's

24:43

the end of the ads. Now we're going back to the

24:45

show. Let's do a lightning round. Let's

24:47

do it. Okay. What's

24:50

one tip for teaching your kid how to fish? If

24:53

the birds aren't there, go

24:55

come back another day. Ah, good

24:57

one. Because the birds

25:00

eat the fish, and if there's no fish,

25:02

there won't be birds. Fish where there

25:04

are fish, a fisherman told me a lot. Fish where there

25:06

are fish. I

25:08

know you talk on your show about

25:10

the lesbian can-do attitude, which

25:13

is an attitude that I would love to have.

25:16

So like, tell me one

25:18

thing I need to

25:22

have the lesbian can-do attitude. Yeah,

25:25

well, it's

25:27

our affectionate way of saying getting

25:29

in touch with the fixer inside

25:32

you. And

25:34

I think it's fundamentally about mindset.

25:37

So it's getting in touch

25:39

with the agency you have to solve problems. That's it.

25:42

That's your inner lesbian. We all have one. Yeah.

25:45

And you know, this is interesting. I don't

25:47

know if I've ever taught anyone how to

25:50

have can-do lesbian spirit. What I do is

25:52

encourage people to surround themselves with people that

25:54

have this inner spirit. It's

25:56

quite infectious. I think that's the answer. I think that's

25:58

the answer. the answer,

26:00

which is be around people who

26:02

in the presence of a problem

26:05

walk towards it. They neither

26:07

freeze nor do they walk away. What's

26:10

the best thing about working with your spouse? I

26:13

get to know

26:15

her more every day and

26:18

I fall in love with her more every day.

26:27

Francis Fry and Anne Morris are

26:29

the co-founders of the Leadership Consortium and

26:31

the hosts of the Fixable podcast. If

26:34

you want a chance to be on their show, call

26:36

their hotline at 234-Fixable at 234-349-2253 and you can leave

26:38

a voicemail for Anne and Francis

26:40

with your workplace

26:48

problem. Today's

26:51

show was produced by Edith Rousselow,

26:53

edited by Karen Schkergy and engineered

26:56

by Amanda Kay Waller. Special

26:59

thanks today to Isabel Carter,

27:01

Constanza Gallardo and Sarah Zinn.

27:04

You can email us

27:06

at problematpushkin.fm. I'm Jacob

27:09

Goldstein and we will be back next week with

27:11

another episode of What's Your Problem?