0:00

Time as a conservative Republican, as you'll

0:02

find, but I want good things for America. When

0:04

they get it right, we should all applaud, we should

0:06

encourage them, and to the extent they're seeking

0:08

our help, we should help them. By the way, when they have it wrong,

0:10

I feel like I have an obligation to said no, I think you

0:12

have that wrong. So

0:20

I'd like to welcome this week a

0:23

very special guest. He's a former Secretary

0:25

of State and of course the former director of the CIA,

0:27

a congressman, lawyer,

0:30

and possibly other stuff that we're finding out.

0:32

Secretary of Mike Pompeio. How are you doing, Mike,

0:35

I'm really good. It's great to be with you. Thanks for having

0:37

me on today. So tell me a little bit about

0:39

your story. I know you grew up in California, but then

0:41

you ended up in Kansas and got into politics.

0:44

Tell me a little bit about that. A little bit of a long

0:46

trip, but that the departure from California

0:48

was to go to West Point. So I graduated from there

0:51

four years later and then was in the army for

0:53

five years. Uh then

0:55

went to law school, practice law for a bitten ended

0:57

up back in Kansas as an entrepreneur, starting

0:59

a company with three of my best friends in the whole

1:01

world, fellow classmates in mind from West Point. We

1:04

we bought a machine shop on the north end of Wichita,

1:07

Kansas, and ran that business for

1:09

a whole handful of years. So I consider myself a manufacturing

1:11

guy more than more than anything else, frankly,

1:14

an entrepreneur. And politics isn't that kind

1:16

of unusual, right? Politicians usually aren't very

1:18

good at money, are They had

1:21

two good and two good opportunities. I ran

1:23

that business and then we sold it, and then I was asked

1:25

to run another company kind of the same thing in the oil

1:27

and gas industry, making stuff,

1:29

making drilling or repairs and

1:32

tools and downhold equipment in the like. Lots of fun.

1:35

So tell me about your experience in politics.

1:37

So I know you rose to become a congressman

1:39

in Kansas, which of course had become

1:41

your home. Tell me about that experience. So

1:44

that was the first time I ran for public elected

1:46

office. The the only thing I'd actually

1:49

run for before was that to be the member

1:52

of my homeowners association board when

1:55

I was unhappy about shakes, shingles or

1:57

something like that. I can't remember exactly

2:00

Uh. And then I've involved a little bit

2:02

in Republican politics back home and been involved

2:04

in the Republican Party as well. But in two thousand

2:07

nine, I was watching what

2:09

it was happening, and I didn't like the direction of

2:11

the country was being taken by President Obama.

2:13

Decided I would take a shot at running

2:15

for Congress, and was blessed enough

2:17

to get elected. So you

2:20

rose pretty prominently because from there

2:22

you and the administration. Of course, became the

2:24

director of the CIA, and you lasted the

2:26

whole administration, which essentially, you

2:28

know, somewhat unusual. Yes,

2:31

there were there was. There was a little bit of turnover, no

2:33

doubt about it. So tell me about

2:35

your time at the CIA. Oh

2:37

my god. It's a big complex.

2:40

Yeah, yeah, a great,

2:42

a great opportunity. Uh

2:44

So I was on the Intelligence Committee in the House,

2:47

so I added a little exposure to the CIA, but

2:49

I've never obviously known it like I came to

2:51

know it when I was the director. It's

2:53

uh, it's a place that provides

2:55

this absolutely pristine, critical

2:58

information to the commander in chief, is

3:00

bellow cabinet members, so that they can have the best

3:02

information in the world when they're trying to

3:04

make really hard decisions around the world, and

3:07

the workforce is fantastic. It

3:09

It ranges from people who do analysis to

3:12

people who are actually out doing espionage

3:14

operations, to engineers and technicians,

3:18

very capable signals people. The skill

3:20

sets we have economists that the

3:23

skill sets are very broad, and there are some of America's

3:25

brightest, most talented people working in a clandestine

3:28

setting. And you know all seen in the movies. Uh

3:32

they don't they don't quite have it right, but the

3:34

work that is done there is truly remarkable

3:36

and important to keeping people safe all across our

3:38

country. Yeah, we kind of

3:40

view the CIA through two lens is like

3:42

this black box that we don't know anything about,

3:45

and also this you know, people who do bad

3:47

things, and that's pretty much the limitation

3:49

of our understanding, right. Yeah,

3:53

well, you know it's the case. Look, every organization

3:55

has bad apples, but the CIA

3:58

is focused on the work we do pseas

4:00

we don't that the FBI does the work back home

4:02

we were we were about chasing down bad guys

4:04

around the world, trying to find and trying to help the president understand

4:07

how decision makers and countries

4:09

all around the world, both our friends

4:12

and our adversaries were thinking about things

4:14

so that they could make really informed decisions

4:16

and have that that real time good

4:19

information upon which to make those decisions.

4:22

So you were kind of an unknown when you became Secretary

4:25

of State. I kind of like remember reading your

4:27

name and thinking, well, I know who he is. I remember

4:29

him from being from Congress and obviously

4:31

you know the CIA obviously. But

4:34

how how was that, you know, flying

4:36

being the face of America abroad?

4:39

What was it? Like? My goodness, it

4:41

was it's uh is it was

4:43

amazing. I

4:45

can't tell you how much people want to see when

4:47

you're Emmeriss America's secretary of State.

4:50

So wherever you fly, right that plane

4:52

lands and they want you to come see

4:54

their leader, the prime minister, the president, that your

4:57

counterpart, the foreign secretary. And

4:59

it was because of Mike. It was never they didn't want to see

5:01

Mike. They wanted to see America's secretary state

5:04

because America's secretary

5:06

state can do an awful lot of good for them

5:08

and if they can develop a relationship or

5:10

make a persuasive argument and

5:12

convince America to assist them, that

5:15

it's much to the benefit of their country. And we are

5:17

so so big so powerful

5:20

and and frankly such a force for good throughout

5:22

the world that I it's quite

5:24

a privilege to be the the embodiment of

5:26

that history of the administration trying

5:29

to deliver for for them, knowing

5:31

full well the mission was always America first,

5:33

getting it right, take care of our people at home,

5:36

and then let's find friends and partners to help deliver

5:38

on that. It was it was. It

5:40

was the privilege of a lifetime, for sure. So

5:43

I had a friend who worked for you, so I was following

5:45

it. Her name's Morgan. Obviously you know who that is.

5:47

And you know, Uh, one of the things I

5:49

was shocked by. You know, you're, of course senior to

5:51

Pompeo. You know your Italian I can

5:53

tell uh. You said one time that

5:55

America is not a multicultural

5:57

country. What did you mean by that? And did we

6:00

get that wrong in the quotations, because I know, you

6:02

know, can you explain

6:04

that more? I can't. Of

6:06

course, we have be well from all over the place,

6:08

right. I love my Italian heritage.

6:11

On my mother's side, she was from Europe. We

6:13

loved that too. People come from all different

6:16

backgrounds. Uh, this is this

6:18

is lovely and wonderful. But

6:20

America has always had this special thing about

6:23

it, and our founders knew it. And when

6:25

they busted away from the Brits now coming

6:27

up on our anniversary from seventeen seventy

6:30

six, in a few days, they knew that there

6:32

was something really unique about being American.

6:36

But this quintessential set of understandings

6:38

that they gave us this document, right,

6:41

they started it with a declaration of independence, and they

6:43

built out a framework called the Constitution. They built

6:45

this republic. And so whoever

6:48

you are and from wherever you come, whether

6:50

you were an indigenous person that was

6:52

here originally or you just arrived

6:54

yesterday and came through our system, and you got

6:57

a chance as I did, to be I

6:59

got just swearing people to become new citizens

7:01

in America. No no matter where it's from,

7:04

you have this incredible privilege, and people

7:07

want to be here. And that's what I meant.

7:09

That's what I meant. We we need to have the unity

7:11

surrounded about understanding about America as

7:14

a as a noble nation, a good country,

7:16

one that takes care of its people. And we have

7:18

fights, we have different political views inside of

7:20

our country, but in the end of the day, we're

7:23

all Americans, and we need to have that at first

7:25

and foremost in our minds as we think about

7:27

not only how we raise our families, but

7:29

how we represent ourselves and find our

7:31

place in the world as well. That's not

7:33

the answer I expected, because you know, especially

7:36

through the image we have a view through

7:38

media. I expected something harsher

7:40

and more brought. I

7:43

don't know what to tell you. This is so amata

7:46

I think about our nation. So

7:56

Secretary Pompeo, I wanted to ask

7:59

you about what hop in or what

8:01

exactly the events were that led up to you

8:03

getting banned from mainland China, Hong

8:05

Kong and Macau. Can you tell us a little

8:07

bit about that. So it's a it's

8:09

very it's it's quite something. They did the sanction

8:11

within just a couple of minutes of the time that we had left

8:14

office, right after the uh swearing

8:16

in of President Biden. You'll you'll

8:18

get a kick out of this. My my son is engaged

8:20

to a young lady named Rachel's was a delightful woman,

8:23

and she called me really quickly and

8:25

said, Mr Pompeo, and I'm

8:27

marrying into the sanctions regime. I

8:32

said, yes, it's me and my family. So perhaps

8:34

you are, but it'll be it'll be fantastic.

8:36

Well, I'll be fine. Look, we

8:39

had begun for the first time to challenge

8:42

the Chinese Communist Party. It's

8:44

doing so many bad things around the world. Forget

8:48

its own political system, it's communist political

8:50

system. But there they've got a million people,

8:53

mostly Muslim people, in the western part

8:55

of their country held in internment camps.

8:57

I mean, that's just that doesn't happen.

8:59

So we had claried, I had declared that this was

9:01

genocidal and was ongoing. We've

9:04

began to confront them when they were

9:06

engaged in activity around the world where they were

9:09

using money to extort

9:11

political favors for themselves what you could

9:13

call a bribery, but it's it's on a grander

9:15

scale than that, And so they weren't

9:17

happy about this. We were confronting them, we were imposing

9:19

real costs on them. We we've also

9:22

seen that they continue to refuse

9:24

to tell anybody how the heck this virus

9:26

got out of Wuhan and

9:28

we had millions of people

9:31

dead, billions and billions of dollars lost.

9:33

America is still trying to recover as our countries

9:35

all around the world, and the Chinese Communist

9:37

Party continues to cover up what actually happened.

9:40

Uh, they're still operating the viral lab that I think

9:42

it's most likely where this originated.

9:44

We have to know that this isn't gonna happen again.

9:46

So we were working hard on those things. They didn't like it,

9:48

and they decided to sanction me to send a message, frankly,

9:51

I think mostly to the Biden

9:53

administration that says,

9:56

you may be in government service now, but someday

9:58

you won't, and when you aren't, if you

10:00

would like to do business with us, you should know

10:02

you should be very careful. I think that's a dangerous

10:05

message to send. And I'm

10:07

confident that the My administration will still

10:09

do the right thing and make sure that we protect

10:11

America from the threat from the CCP. So

10:14

why hasn't more been done? And I'm

10:16

not specifically just speaking to the Trump

10:18

administration, but also Obama, Bush,

10:20

Clinton, going all the way back to Nixon.

10:23

Why have we developed this dependency

10:25

on China and we give them our money

10:27

and we until the Trump administration.

10:29

Admittedly, say what you want about the Trump administration,

10:32

the tone on China was generally

10:35

permissive, like here's our money, do whatever you

10:37

want. Yeah,

10:39

that is certainly true. And uh,

10:42

it is your point, what very well taken. This isn't republican

10:44

or democrat. This was u S policy

10:47

for since roughly nineteen seventy two,

10:49

when Nixon and Kissinger went to China,

10:52

was that this was a developing country, and if we just engage

10:54

with them more, they'll leave us alone. What days in Beijing

10:57

will stay in Beijing. And

10:59

you know, for thirty forty years that might well have made

11:01

sense. But for a couple of decades

11:03

now we should have known better. We could see them become

11:05

explicitive, we could see them become

11:08

expansionary. We could see them start to

11:10

try and force their way on us,

11:13

and for a lot of reasons, most of

11:15

them economic. Right, we have a lot of folks making

11:17

a lot of money, their businesses growing because

11:19

of their connectivity China. They have a market of one point

11:21

four billion people, an important market for

11:24

US businesses. For

11:26

for those reasons, we just turned the other cheek. We'd

11:28

see them do something and we would give them

11:30

an exception. And President

11:32

Trump made clear that was that was

11:34

enough. We've got to fix this. They mean

11:37

they stole tens of millions

11:39

of American jobs by just literally stealing

11:41

intellectual property from the United

11:43

States. Some creative engineers, some talented

11:45

writers, some some person

11:48

who was doing great coding, and they just come and

11:50

steal it for themselves after we've invested our

11:52

money. And then they build the product

11:54

there and they dump it back on our country. This

11:56

this is crazy. No, no, no rational

11:59

nation would permit this to continue. And yet uh,

12:02

it was awfully lucrative to look the other way. And President

12:04

Trump said enough and we began to write

12:06

the ship. The good news is not only did

12:08

we do it, but we convinced lots of others around

12:11

the world who were suffering the same darned thing from

12:13

the CCP, and they're all

12:15

started down this path that the West. Those

12:17

of us who believe in like logic and thought

12:20

and reason uh right

12:22

and good governance. Uh. I

12:25

think all of us can now see that we slept on this for

12:27

a couple of decades too long and are beginning to write

12:29

the ship. And this will be a good thing, and will not only be

12:31

good frankly for those of us in the West. When

12:33

I say the West, that's the West is an idea

12:35

here, but rule of law, property

12:38

rights, human rights. Uh,

12:40

those of us in the West. Doing

12:42

this will actually benefit the Chinese people

12:44

too. There are there are one point two billion

12:47

Chinese people who aren't part of the Chinese

12:49

Communist Party. Uh, and we

12:51

love them. We want them to be successful and prospers

12:54

to and if we get this right, their lives

12:56

will be better off as well. So

12:58

why didn't even the Trump administration

13:00

Because I can't just sit here and give you a free pass. I

13:02

know the Trump administration changed the tone on everything,

13:05

but we're tariffs really the best

13:07

answer. I mean, in the end, US consumers

13:09

paid that. So, like, I know, the narrative

13:12

change, Secretary, but it's more like

13:14

this is like, shouldn't we have convened

13:16

the business community and been like, hey, like, we've

13:19

got to diversify your supply chains like now,

13:22

So we did, but I will

13:24

concede there is a lot of work left undone

13:26

that we didn't get to that there's a long way to go

13:28

to to address this problem. Said,

13:31

That's why I'm so hopeful this doesn't become partisan.

13:33

This can't be part of This is about America, out about

13:35

Trump or Biden or anything else. This isn't about

13:38

politics. This is about getting a right and protecting

13:40

our country. No, we left

13:42

a lot still to do. You know, on tariffs,

13:44

it's a very difficult problems that tariffs are

13:47

imperfect. But boy, when you are trying

13:49

to write the ship and get reciprocal trade,

13:51

all we ever wanted was saying, if

13:53

we sell you a widget and you're gonna you're

13:55

gonna put three percent tariff on, don't you show us

13:57

the widget back. It should be three were

14:00

or zero. If you want nine, team will do nineteen.

14:02

But they have reciprocity in the trade

14:04

relationship. Makes

14:06

an enormous amount of sense. Uh.

14:09

And so we were working our way towards getting

14:11

there. But you know, we did a lot of other things with the business

14:13

community. I assure you we convened to

14:15

them. Some of them didn't like what we were peddling.

14:18

They wanted to keep making money there. But

14:20

I think they all came to realize the enormous

14:23

political risk when they saw the virus and they saw our

14:25

supply chains get honked up. I mean, when

14:27

the Chinese Communist Party tells

14:29

an American company that's doing business in China

14:32

and it's making products under a contract with an

14:34

American company, says no, you can't ship that product.

14:36

So an American company wants

14:39

to ship in a product back to America to

14:41

keep Americans alive, and the Chinese companist

14:43

party says no, you can't ship that. Today, I

14:46

think the game, I mean, it's pretty apparent right

14:48

this makes it's not really fully an American business.

14:50

Its subject to the whims of the

14:52

communists in China. So we

14:55

began to raise awareness and so you'll

14:57

see supply chains start to move

14:59

at these these things. I'll take time. You'll you'll

15:01

see companies make different choices

15:03

about how they produce

15:06

their product and services. And

15:08

I'm hopeful the Biden administration has actually

15:10

done good work so far on this. UM.

15:13

I applaud them for keeping up the good

15:15

work we did on how on Taiwan, and the good

15:17

work we were doing on Hong Kongo's or good things.

15:20

And if we can begin to get this thing ahead

15:22

in the right direction over the course of the next five

15:24

or ten years, we'll be in an awful lot

15:26

better place than we find ourselves today. Wait

15:28

wait, wait, wait, stop the presses. You applaud

15:30

the Biden administration, Is that even something you're allowed

15:33

to say in this political environment? Secretary.

15:36

Oh my gosh, it's for me. Like

15:38

I'm as a conservative Republican as

15:41

you'll find, I believe in in the

15:43

central tenants of what the Republican Party does.

15:45

But I want good things for America, and

15:47

so yes, when when they get it right, when

15:49

I think they've they've got the right end of the stick, we should

15:52

all applaud, we should encourage them, and to the extent

15:54

they're seeking our help, we should help them. This is

15:57

this is what makes America so special and so

15:59

great. And by the way, when they have it wrong, I feel

16:01

like I have an obligation to say, don't I think you have that

16:03

wrong? Uh? And you know that's

16:05

that's what I've done for these four sundred fifty days. That's

16:07

that's what I'll keep doing. So

16:19

tell me a little bit about you know, partisan

16:21

politics these days. It seems like

16:23

you don't hear a lot of what I'm hearing out of

16:26

you right now, which is, you know, the

16:28

other side has some stuff, right. You know I'm

16:30

not from that side, but you know it's

16:32

they're doing some good work, right. Yeah.

16:35

But these are two there two, there's no doubt there

16:37

are. There are two deep divisions.

16:39

And how the parties. Think about the world.

16:41

You've seen inside the parties, there's fractures

16:43

to right. Inside the Democratic Party, there's a

16:46

big, bold left progressive ring, and then there's

16:48

folks like Senator Mansion who are less

16:50

that way. At the same is true inside of my

16:53

party. Uh. We we should

16:55

know that these fact that the founders called

16:57

them factions, but we should

16:59

know they have existed for an awfully long

17:01

time and they'll continue to exist. And

17:03

I hear people say, boy, the rhetoric is really

17:06

heated today. Go back and read what they were

17:08

saying about each other in the seventeen eighties and seventeen

17:10

nineties and during the Civil War, Man

17:13

pretty tame, uh, to be honest

17:15

with you, And so these debates

17:17

ought to be had. I

17:20

can absolutely articulate a vision

17:22

for how I see America moving forward that would

17:24

be rounded firmly in the conservative

17:27

ideas that I think have served our country

17:29

so well. But I'm happy if there's a

17:31

better idea and it comes from some other place, from

17:34

the more centrist part of my party

17:36

or from the Democrat Party. That's

17:38

about getting it right. And uh,

17:41

we should be fearless and speaking about this. We should

17:43

allow every voice to be heard. We shouldn't cancel

17:45

anyone, and we should each

17:47

make our case and then convince the American

17:49

people that were right. And when we are

17:52

elected, whether it's a city council or

17:54

school board seat, when we are

17:56

elected, make sure that we deliver

17:58

on the promises that we've If we turned out to be

18:00

wrong, the American people will see that quickly and they'll

18:02

reject it. They'll move another direction. So

18:05

is there room for diversity of thought in the Republican

18:08

Party or is there room for gay people, brown

18:10

people? All these things tell

18:13

me more about that. Absolutely there

18:15

there's is a big tent has

18:18

been for an awfully long time. I

18:20

can't imagine if moving in any other

18:22

direction. Um, I have good friends

18:24

in the party who are gay. I have good

18:26

friends at the party or African American. I just

18:29

today, for example, as a perfect timely

18:31

example, today I announced I'm sporting Senator

18:33

Jim Scott from South Carolina.

18:35

Soon I came to Congress with Becky in two thousand

18:38

and two thousand and eleven African

18:40

Americans elected from the South,

18:43

an amazing talented leader and

18:45

just a good human being. Yeah, this party

18:47

is plenty big. It's plenty big. For people all over. Our

18:50

party is a party of ideas. We have a we

18:52

have a view of the way the founders intended

18:54

our country to move forward, and the things

18:56

that help our family and protect

18:58

people's religious read them. Those are

19:01

things I care about an awful lot, and

19:03

I'd welcome everyone inside who thinks about

19:05

America in the same way. But the

19:07

Republicans gotta have a pr problem, especially

19:10

among young people. I'm sure you're a normal

19:12

human. You have a family, right, I'm sure you

19:14

have some kids. I think you have one

19:16

son, right, he's thirty years old.

19:18

Yeah, okay, so he's fairly young. Right. I'm

19:20

sure his friends, you know, go oh, I

19:23

know who your dad is, Like, you

19:25

know, like like it seems

19:27

like the Republicans aren't cool. It's

19:29

not cool to be Republican these days.

19:32

Yeah, that could be. I don't know. He also

19:34

has friends to say, can you get my dad's out of your dad's

19:36

autograph forma? It's

19:39

true, there there's a little of each. Uh.

19:42

Look, it's two thoughts. One,

19:44

it's it's often been the case that people

19:47

tend to be more progressive, more liberal

19:49

when they're younger, and they get a little bit older and see a little

19:51

bit more of the world that they

19:53

moved to the right that that's been the case

19:55

for at least the last modern are

19:58

the post World War two air But second

20:00

um, I for one, and I hope all of my

20:02

Republican friends will be relentless

20:05

in addressing the things that matter to the next

20:07

generation and addressing the things that are going to give them

20:10

the chance to to live their life the

20:12

way they want to, to raise their family the way

20:14

they want to whatever whatever that may be. I

20:16

hope that's the case. And you know, if

20:18

if we've got to figure out a different way to market,

20:21

that, so be it. But I think these

20:23

ideas resonate with people of

20:25

of every background, in every age.

20:27

And I hope that the ears

20:29

will be open and that the

20:31

the schools and universities will continue

20:34

to let us come speak and talk, and

20:36

then they'll bring in somebody who disagrees with us,

20:38

so that young people get a chance to hear um

20:40

every thought and every idea and form their own judgments

20:43

in a way that is intellectual and uh

20:45

not based on some legacy idea that

20:47

maybe upomoted or unfit. So

20:50

how about that and deficits we seem to be running

20:52

the federal government deep into the red and

20:54

it seems to be a bipartisan issues these

20:56

days. What are your thoughts on that it

20:59

is it's tragically bipartisan. I agree

21:01

with you. Uh, like that's a difficult

21:03

problem. Uh for

21:05

sure, But neither party

21:07

has taken seriously the responsibile to make

21:09

sure that we know those same young people you were just talking

21:11

about, we've

21:14

got to make sure they can still live in the same America. And I

21:16

would always tell Nick when he was younger. I

21:18

would say, Nick, I'm fine, My sole security check

21:20

is gonna clear. Yours

21:22

may not. We gotta get our act together. Uh.

21:26

It is awful easy to spend other people's money

21:28

and difficult and takes real political leadership

21:31

to make the case for why certain things have to

21:33

change and why we can't spend as much as we I hope,

21:35

I hope both parties will find

21:38

a way to take this more seriously. So

21:41

tell me a little bit about your plans before you leave me,

21:43

because I know, as as always, you have your busy calendar

21:45

and your assistants gonna start hating me

21:47

if I don't. You know, Uh,

21:51

no worries. So I'm

21:53

working really hard to help candidates get

21:55

elected in two good conservative

21:57

people from all across the country. I was in California

22:00

this weekend and in Texas, UM

22:02

swinging back out too. I think

22:04

Wisconsin and Pennsylvania next week. Uh,

22:07

doing the same thing, helping folks get elected.

22:10

I'm also trying to find a way to become

22:12

an entrepreneur again. Start a couple of little projects.

22:14

I have a couple of those in the works as well, and I really really

22:17

love that is something I'll always enjoyed.

22:19

Uh. And then I've got a project I'm working

22:22

on religious freedom as well, doing

22:24

some writing there. Those those three things keep me plenty

22:26

busy, I'm sure. So

22:28

no plans as of Yeah, what do you see landscape

22:31

looking like? Oh

22:34

my gosh. If you'd asked me in in

22:37

seventeen what i'd be doing out and said, well, I'm gonna

22:39

be a member of Congress for two more years, and I ended up

22:41

having two great gigs. I have

22:44

no earthly idea what it will look like. No, no presidential

22:46

plans as of yet, because it seems like you have

22:49

the pitch down good

22:52

and I'm gonna stay in the final I'll be working on

22:54

this project somewhere. These these ideas

22:56

are timeless, and it's really important

22:59

that we get them right. So I don't know, it's hard to know

23:01

where the Lord will put me, but we're

23:03

gonna keep working at it. Well, we appreciate

23:05

your time, Secretary of Pompeio, and all the best in

23:08

your pursuits the Big three right now, especially

23:10

entrepreneurship that the lifeblood of this country.

23:12

And you always have to remember, without that entrepreneurs

23:15

none of this is possible. Things

23:17

happen if we're not creating. Well, bless you have a

23:19

good day. Thank you, You bet

23:22

so

23:22

long. So

23:28

this was definitely not the interview that

23:30

I expected from the former

23:32

Secretary of State in a few ways.

23:34

Primarily the first way was that,

23:36

you know, he fundamentally praised the Abiden

23:39

administration for their work on China. And

23:41

this is something that I think needs to be noticed

23:43

by people both on the left and the right,

23:46

is that the narrative has permanently changed

23:48

on China. For far too long,

23:51

everyone's ignored China like, oh,

23:53

it's just there. You know, they make

23:55

our stuff, it's cheap, Like

23:57

they'll they'll eventually become democratic,

24:00

you know, if we give them enough money and if

24:02

you know, we educate their youth and if

24:04

we trade with them, and they'll

24:06

eventually become like the rest of the world. Right, So,

24:08

say what you want about the Trump administration,

24:10

but the narrative on China is fundamentally

24:13

changed and it's permanent, and

24:15

no matter who's in charge, now, we're

24:17

gonna look at China in a different light.

24:19

And every day we get more and more news from

24:21

people who defect, you know, leaks

24:24

coming out of mainland China that

24:26

things aren't good. And the big canary in the

24:29

coal mine, you know, if you don't know that

24:31

saying it's you know, they would bring a canary down

24:33

into the mine, and if the canary died,

24:35

you know, there was toxic gas in the mind. Well

24:38

for thus that was really Hong Kong,

24:40

right. Hong Kong was a liberal

24:43

democracy, not politically liberal in the

24:45

sense that it was had elected leaders

24:47

in an independent judiciary and

24:49

was basically a Western city. And once the British

24:52

gave it back, slowly but surely,

24:54

the Communists have turned it into a city

24:57

that resembles the rest of China.

24:59

So we

25:01

we have to give credit where credit is due, and

25:03

specifically to Mike Pompeo, who is now banned from

25:05

China. You know, congrats

25:07

on changing the narrative. And also,

25:10

we don't know what your political career is going to be, but

25:13

we wish you well in your pursuits.

25:16

And I'd like to hear more of this bipartisan

25:18

dialogue. I'd like to hear more

25:21

about how sometimes the other

25:23

side has the right answers and

25:25

to give credit where credit is due.

25:27

The Biden administration is pursuing a

25:29

lot of the same things as the Trump administration

25:32

pursuit and you probably won't hear that on liberal

25:34

or conservative media outlets, but it's something

25:36

you should be hearing about. China

25:39

is a threat to the United States, as is

25:41

Russia, and we need to recalibrate

25:44

our commerce and our trade policy

25:46

and our diplomacy to reflect that

25:48

reality. And that was pioneered by

25:51

the Trump administration. The Bush

25:53

and Obama administrations unfortunately

25:55

ignored the problem. And going

25:58

forward, we need more people like

26:00

Secretary Pompeio to stand up

26:02

and say, hey, this is good, keep

26:04

on doing it, because we're going in the right direction

26:07

and reality is reality. No

26:09

matter how cheap our

26:11

products are from China, we are

26:14

funding the rise of someone who is not

26:16

only a rival, but a threat

26:18

to our future, and not just America's

26:20

future, but the rest of the world, because

26:22

China has their fingers in every

26:24

single pie around the world, and they're playing

26:27

the long game and they're playing the smart

26:29

game. Well we sit here and argue

26:31

about, you know, silliness. They're

26:34

focused on building a sustainable

26:36

economy and a sustainable future for

26:38

their people, and you

26:40

know, obviously China has

26:43

its problems. You can't

26:45

build a civilization based on copying

26:47

other countries, and I don't

26:49

know how sustainable their model is

26:51

environmentally or socially. But in the

26:54

meantime, we need to really

26:56

confront the problem and that

26:59

starts with the that Secretary

27:01

Pompeios said, which is recognizing

27:04

reality, understanding that we can't

27:06

continue doing things the way

27:08

we've been doing them and sticking our head

27:10

in the sand. So that was

27:12

what really stuck out to me about Mike

27:15

Pompeios talked with me. It was really his talk

27:17

on China, and you know, it's it's cute

27:20

because you know, Secretary Pompeio

27:22

is a real person. His relationship with

27:24

his son is something I mentioned and

27:26

it's something that you read about a

27:29

lot. His son is very special to him

27:31

and his son's adopted, but they've

27:34

you know, developed a very close relationship.

27:36

And when his son got engaged, you know that the fiance

27:39

said, are you are you the sanctioned family by

27:41

marrying into a sanctioned family? You

27:43

know. Secretary Pompeio is a real person.

27:45

You know, he lives in Kansas. He has

27:47

to make money like the rest of us. But

27:50

for a while there he was the face of America. And

27:52

no matter whether you're left or right, that's

27:54

the ceremony and the pomp

27:58

and circumstance, no pun intended.

28:01

It's something for the history books. And

28:03

no matter what you think, America

28:06

is still the leader in this world for now. And

28:09

he was the leader, at least the face

28:11

of the free world, not the leader that would be the president.

28:14

So it was an honor to have him on the podcast.

28:17

In the same way, I would extend the same invitation

28:19

to Anthony B. Lincoln, who is our current Secretary

28:22

of State. Probably a little busy for the podcast,

28:24

but in the meantime, stay tuned to so many

28:27

more good interviews like this and conversations

28:29

about bipartisanship, about the need

28:32

for entrepreneurship, and about the need

28:34

for a reality check without all the talking

28:36

points. I'm David Grasso, So

28:42

thanks to all of you for joining me as we Follow the Prophet,

28:44

and a big thanks to our producers Cheyenne

28:47

Read, Scott Handler, and of course to our executive

28:49

producer's Knu gang Rich and Debbie Myers. I'm

28:51

David Grasso. If you're enjoying this show as much

28:53

as i am, give us five stars and give us a review.

28:56

We read those and take your feedback

28:58

in mind. Follow the Prophet is a production

29:00

of Gingwich three sixty and I Heart Radio. For more

29:02

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29:14

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