0:00

I'm David Grosso, and you're listening to

0:02

follow the profit today.

0:09

I'm joined by someone from

0:11

our profession. We have a shared

0:13

profession, which is journalism, which

0:15

some people call the fastest

0:18

disappearing white collar profession in

0:20

the world. None other than

0:22

Dina Demetrius Marius.

0:24

I believe it is in Greek. How are you doing today,

0:27

Dina, Greetings from Florida to Sunny

0:29

l A. Well, greetings

0:31

to you two from Sunny l A to Florida.

0:34

Thanks for having me. So what

0:36

is it like to be a journalist? I know

0:38

I could talk about this at length, but you

0:41

have that same war paint

0:43

on your face that I do. Talk about

0:46

a difficult field.

0:48

Tell me about your experience, so

0:52

you know, it is a roller coaster to say

0:55

the least. I mean, I think that

0:57

it is one of the most um

1:01

satisfying and amazing

1:03

jobs that somebody can have. It

1:06

is also deeply difficult

1:08

at times, and um

1:10

it is becoming increasingly so, I think

1:12

in a lot of ways, both financially

1:15

for individual journalists, um,

1:17

both in terms of the time and

1:20

the resources that you're allotted to do the kind

1:22

of journalism that you want to do, and

1:24

if your freelances. More and more journalists

1:26

are becoming That is a

1:29

whole other level of

1:31

of up and down that you're needing

1:33

to deal with in terms of the types

1:35

of stories that you're pitching to various news organizations,

1:38

the financial sustainability

1:40

of that. So there's a lot

1:43

going on in journalism right now

1:45

and for journalists as individuals

1:48

in terms of making their way and

1:50

continuing to do the work that they love to do that.

1:52

Honestly, I feel like a lot of us have a calling

1:54

to do. Yeah, I

1:56

feel like I didn't really have

1:58

a choice but to enter this field.

2:01

Obviously, I was well aware of

2:03

the financial challenges, but every

2:05

type of personality test I took revealed

2:08

politician or journalists. So I heard

2:10

on the side of journalism, what was

2:12

your adventure to journalism?

2:14

Like, how did you wake up one day and say,

2:17

Wow, I'm just a glutton for punishment. I want

2:19

to make my life difficult yet very

2:21

satisfying. As you said, Well,

2:24

you know, I'm I'm generation

2:27

X. So it wasn't necessarily

2:29

a thought of this is going to be a difficult

2:32

road, and you know, honestly, there

2:34

have been times when it's been wonderful and pretty

2:36

easy. And other times when it's been more challenging.

2:39

So again it's you know, it's it's

2:41

a back and forth in that way.

2:43

But as a child, I

2:45

was really um. I had a news

2:48

had an impact on me. Watching television.

2:50

News was really affecting me. And

2:53

my parents weren't the type of parents, you know,

2:55

the Greek immigrants. It's like whatever is on TV, okay,

2:57

if we're watching it, you're watching it too. And so I

2:59

wasn't she fielded from the

3:01

news of the day, you know, like

3:03

I think a lot of parents are doing that now and

3:05

I understand why, but I wasn't shielded.

3:08

So these these stories and

3:11

an impact on me. And I was a storyteller

3:13

from the time I could speak. I was always

3:15

telling stories to my younger brother

3:17

and sister. I was telling a story, you know. That was

3:20

who I was from the very beginning.

3:23

And so um I thought, well,

3:25

if I'm going to be a storyteller, I want to tell real people's

3:27

stories. I want to be able to have the

3:29

type of impact on people that this um

3:32

information and these types of stories have had

3:34

on me growing up. And

3:36

on top of that, you know, and you

3:38

may realize it's too from your family

3:41

history My parents are immigrants from

3:43

Greece on first generation, and

3:45

so I was surrounded by their

3:47

stories, not just their immigration

3:50

stories, but also their stories

3:52

of living in occupied Greece during

3:54

the Nazi occupation and what that was like

3:57

for them as little children and growing up, and

3:59

so all these stories

4:01

around me having to do with

4:03

current events and people's lives

4:06

really really mattered to me.

4:08

So at some point in my

4:11

early teenage years, I decided, well, maybe

4:13

journalism is for me. And

4:15

I was lucky enough to have a television station

4:18

in my high school. We took television. I

4:20

was able to take television classes. We had a we

4:23

had a you know, a TV station

4:25

in their community station, and so I

4:28

started my own news magazine

4:30

show from the time I was sixteen and

4:33

hosted and produced it and and everything.

4:35

And so launched myself that way

4:37

and went to college and then

4:40

afterwards went to Washington, d C. To work

4:42

as a journalists. So

4:44

you've tackled some pretty tough issues, which

4:46

you know, I think that comes with the hardness

4:49

of having an immigrant family, right. We

4:51

come from war torn regions, you

4:53

know, the hard scrabble upbringing.

4:56

You're kind of able to face head on things

4:59

like and I'm seeing he or my notes. You know, mental

5:01

illness and prisons, fracking,

5:03

you know, workers rights. These are touchy,

5:06

complicated issues to break

5:08

down for any audience, never mind

5:10

on video. You need to have

5:13

you need to have a background of steel,

5:15

you know, to to tackle those. Yeah,

5:17

for sure. How do you channel

5:20

people stories without seeming seeming

5:22

biased because that seems to be a big

5:24

challenge in today's media landscape.

5:27

Yeah, um you know

5:30

that that has become quite

5:34

a topic and it is difficult sometimes.

5:37

My when I approach a

5:39

story, I'm not approaching it from the point

5:42

of view of am I telling

5:44

all the sides or am I including this

5:46

person's opinion and that person's opinion.

5:48

My goal is always I'm trying to find

5:51

the truth. I'm trying to understand what the facts

5:53

are so that, um

5:55

I can let people

5:57

know that this is how this particular

6:00

or issue is going to impact their lives

6:02

or is impacting their lives um

6:04

at this time. So I

6:08

don't I don't think about it too much

6:11

in terms of a political bias.

6:13

I think of it in terms of what

6:16

is what is the question we're trying to answer?

6:18

So with fracking, right, I mean, there are political

6:21

their political opinions on both sides of

6:23

that particular issue. My

6:26

question in pursuing that fracking investigation

6:29

as an example, is

6:31

is is fracking actually happening in

6:33

California? And the state regulator

6:35

had absolutely no idea why because

6:37

they weren't asking the question in the oil

6:40

forms that oil companies were filling

6:42

out to find out if

6:44

they were if the types of methods

6:47

that they were using included fracking, So

6:49

they had absolutely no idea. People

6:51

need to know if fracking is happening

6:53

in their area. That's whe the environmental

6:56

concerns that people have. So it's

6:58

not a matter of political lies. It's a

7:00

matter of trying to find out what

7:02

is actually happening, what the truth is, what

7:04

the facts are, and allowing

7:07

people to make that that

7:09

decision themselves in terms of which way

7:11

they fall in the political spectrum with regard to

7:13

that issue. But Dina, you

7:16

bring up an important issue right which there

7:18

are a lot of stories out there, never mind political

7:20

bias. Your it is just lack

7:22

of process, a need you

7:25

know, a cause. Why does everything

7:27

seem to be just an outrage factory these

7:29

days, specifically tailored for left

7:31

or right wing audiences and everything seems

7:33

to have a political bent. But as you've mentioned,

7:36

stories are stories. They don't really have politics.

7:41

Well, they have politics in the sense that they

7:44

they impact people's lives, and so

7:46

you're going to be making a decision one way or

7:48

another with regard to the issue. But you

7:50

don't have to approach the telling of that story

7:53

from a political angle, right.

7:55

You have to approach it, I think, and the

7:57

way I've done it, from a human angle. This

8:00

is affecting all humans. It doesn't matter if fracking

8:02

is happening next to somebody who's Republican or next

8:04

to somebody who's Democrat. It is still happening,

8:07

and you need to make your own

8:09

political decision about what that means for

8:12

you. The reason why

8:14

I think there's so much outrage at

8:16

this point is because that is what's

8:18

driving social media, that is what's

8:20

driving the online um

8:23

news forums, and so people

8:25

are you know, this has been talked about

8:28

endlessly click bait, right, so

8:30

you're looking at a headline it's meant to be outrageous.

8:33

Some people who are into that outrage

8:36

will click on it, and so

8:38

they'll you know, they'll get advertising

8:40

eyes on it, and and that's what

8:42

drives that particular form

8:45

of news. But to me,

8:47

there's an ever greater divide

8:50

between what we're calling news and what

8:52

we're calling journalism. Those

8:54

two words used to be synonymous,

8:56

they used to be interchangeable, and I think that's

8:59

that's becoming the case because

9:01

of what you're saying, because of you know, these outrage

9:04

headlines that are meant to, you

9:07

know, just make people click on it, and

9:09

and it doesn't matter what the outcome

9:12

really is. It's just meant

9:14

to generate anger. And that's what it's

9:16

doing on both sides of the aisle.

9:19

Does it ever, just kind of burn out and

9:21

create a point where for people

9:23

just want zero opinion journalism

9:27

or news or information.

9:31

Yeah, absolutely, it causes burned out, and and

9:33

we've been seeing it, I think, particularly in this past

9:36

year and a half and we've been dealing with the pandemic,

9:38

people have just I

9:41

think a lot of people have just had it. I'll tell you

9:43

have a cousin who is pretty middle of the road

9:45

in in the Midwest, in Illinois,

9:48

who you know, sort of messaged

9:50

me in the beginning of the pandemic

9:52

and said, I just I can't take this anymore. I don't

9:54

know who to believe I don't know what to do. Who

9:57

do you suggest I look to for

9:59

news? And so

10:01

I gave my opinion on

10:04

places that I think do really

10:06

good journalism, and I gave

10:09

him some options. And I also told him,

10:11

look at this website media bias fact

10:13

checker dot com. They're gonna you know,

10:15

that's what they do. They'll tell you,

10:18

you know, are they fact checking? Are they

10:20

promoting conspiracy theories? And so on? For

10:22

all the different news organizations that there

10:25

are. And so that's something

10:27

that I think an audience needs to take upon

10:29

themselves is ask the trusted journalists.

10:31

I'm a trusted journalist to my cousin. So

10:34

he asked me, and I gave him my opinion

10:36

on that these are these are people who

10:39

these are journalists who are vetted, who know how

10:41

to vet information, who know how to vet

10:43

people that they're interviewing, and

10:45

and that is critical to understanding

10:48

and getting the right um,

10:50

getting the right information on a variety of

10:52

topics. So you're

10:54

freelancing these days for CBS, which

10:56

I think is the gold standard in mainstream

10:58

media. And I'm not just saying that because you work for

11:01

them. Yeah, No, I'm not just

11:03

saying that too, because I work for them. Yeah, they're

11:05

great. Yeah. So from a journalist

11:07

standpoint, like if I had to watch TV,

11:09

I would probably be more likely

11:11

to watch CBS and the competitors. Um,

11:15

so what do you think that CBS

11:18

does better than the

11:20

competitors. I would think that it's

11:22

really present more information

11:24

in a more fulsome fashion instead of

11:27

just random sound bites. Yeah.

11:29

Yeah, there's there's that. UM. You

11:31

know, look, a lot of a lot of news organizations

11:33

will do that as well. I think it's a matter also

11:36

of UM having a

11:38

particular ethos within the company, within

11:41

the news organization itself. Look,

11:43

you're you're going to you're

11:46

going to take on the characteristics of the people

11:48

you surround yourself with. And

11:51

I have found UM the people

11:53

I've started working with CBS

11:55

to be people journalists

11:58

of integrity, who are

12:00

interested in telling stories

12:02

that matter to people and

12:05

UM and their journalism process

12:08

is is there and it's

12:11

solid and it's filled with integrity. That's

12:14

not always the case because of in

12:17

part because of the speed that news

12:19

travels and so things sort of

12:22

get pushed under the rug. They're not

12:24

done as thoroughly as they need

12:26

to be. But UM,

12:28

for for other news organizations, that's not

12:30

the case. And CBS, I think you're right, is at the

12:32

top of that. UM, they're just people of integrity

12:35

and their journalists who are trained, and that is a big

12:37

deal. Just because an

12:40

organization has the word news in it doesn't

12:42

mean it's providing you but journalism

12:45

and that's and and that's something to really think

12:47

about. What

12:58

are some of the stories you've been working on lately for

13:00

as the CBS freelancer, you focus

13:02

on the Los Angeles area? Is that correct? Well,

13:06

yes, it comes out of southern California.

13:09

And and I'm working for Newspath,

13:11

which is the part of CBS News

13:14

which provides UM

13:16

stories national stories for all the

13:18

different CBS stations around the country so that

13:20

they can incorporate them into their local newscasts.

13:23

And a lot of the stories have been medical

13:25

stories. They've been consumers stories, UM,

13:28

what travel has been like, UM now

13:31

that the delta variant has really

13:34

you know, emerged, UM

13:36

RV shortages, medical stories

13:38

about double transplants for a teenager,

13:41

UM, the latest

13:43

on covid um studies

13:46

and so on. So there's a lot of that.

13:48

They're pretty they're relatively sure compared

13:50

to what I'm used to reporting

13:53

UM, but they're great, and they're very they're

13:55

very timely, and they're very useful to people

13:58

UM who are watching cities stations

14:00

around the country, So they're they're really great

14:02

stories. So you worked for

14:05

other other organizations like Al

14:07

Jazeera and other

14:10

nonprofits as well. What was that like?

14:15

You know, I really love the stories

14:17

that I was doing UM, that

14:19

had been able to do for k c T, which is

14:22

a PBS station here in Los

14:24

Angeles, and for Al Jazeera America, and that

14:26

was around UM. And the reason

14:28

is that pretty

14:30

much anything I pitched that

14:33

UM needed to be deeply

14:35

investigated was something that they

14:38

would love for me to do, and I was able

14:40

to do that. So I had the ability and

14:42

the resources to be

14:44

able to investigate issues, to

14:47

dive deeply into social justice stories

14:50

and UM and really tell them from

14:52

different perspectives because I had

14:54

the time, both in terms of the length of the story

14:57

and the length of the process, to

15:00

to research the story, to incorporate

15:02

as many voices as I thought were

15:04

needed in there. So those

15:07

are really great times. Yeah,

15:09

I don't think people understand though the life

15:11

of a journalist. I was a local reporter myself,

15:14

and the demand for stories and good

15:16

stories always exceeded our bandwidth

15:18

to cover them. And now we see

15:20

a lot of news deserts in the country, especially

15:23

at the local level. Has that been

15:25

lost permanently or do you think that there's ever

15:28

going to be a way to bring back

15:30

that tradition of strong journalism,

15:32

especially at the local level. I

15:35

really hope so, David, because you're right, it is

15:37

heartbreaking every time I

15:39

see the another local newspaper has shut

15:41

down because they're out of money, they

15:43

can't hire, you know, they can't keep their

15:46

their reporters. It's really it's

15:48

really terrible. It breaks my heart for the journalists

15:50

involved. And it breaks my heart for that community

15:54

because they don't have anyone to tell

15:56

their stories. They don't have anyone to hold

15:58

the elected people around

16:01

them accountable. And so

16:03

that is a huge part of journalism,

16:06

is actually a pillar of journalism to hold

16:09

um those empower accountable. And

16:11

so yeah, there are many many news

16:13

deserts around. What I hope

16:15

is that maybe

16:19

people in those communities will gather, the

16:22

journalists there will gather and create nonprofits

16:26

for themselves to tell stories

16:28

um from a hyperlocal level in

16:30

that way, and that we see that starting

16:33

to happen over the past five years. But

16:35

I think some really great journalism is

16:37

happening at a nonprofit level. Pro

16:40

Publica is a fantastic example

16:43

of that. They do amazing investigations,

16:45

They tell fantastic stories

16:48

that I think everybody should be reading. And

16:50

there are nonprofit The nineteen News

16:53

is another nonprofit news

16:55

room, so I think it might

16:57

be heading in that direction at least I hope

17:00

so as another way to

17:02

to grow those newsrooms again

17:05

in areas where they've just just been

17:07

decimated. Well, I run

17:09

a nonprofit news brand exactly for that,

17:11

because margins are so low and advertising

17:14

skews so much of your editorial

17:16

mission that it becomes easier to run nonprofits.

17:19

And so I'm going to steal your pitch there, Dina.

17:22

I saw this crazy bumper sticker on the way

17:24

back from South Carolina a

17:26

few days ago. It said defund the

17:28

media, which doesn't even make any sense. But

17:30

let's put that aside. Right, Yeah,

17:35

trust in the media is at

17:37

an all time low, right, and we

17:39

I mean, I'm sure Congress is less trusted,

17:42

but you know, we're basically on par

17:44

with proctologists appointments and

17:46

you know, you

17:49

know something, you know, cleaning out your septic

17:52

tank, you know, so stuff that is very

17:54

unpleasant. How did

17:56

we get here? I

17:58

don't know. It makes me said, um,

18:01

well, how did we get here? Uh?

18:04

You know, there are there

18:07

are companies there are creating

18:09

news rooms that are not telling the news.

18:12

So, um, that's that's

18:15

a big thing. So now then you've got

18:17

one one side of you

18:19

know, the political spectrum doing that,

18:21

and then it gets countered by the other side.

18:23

And then there's this tip for tap between the

18:26

right and the left in terms of

18:28

really you know, struggling to get those

18:30

eyeballs, and

18:32

and it just becomes you know, a tug

18:34

of war and and a

18:37

fight that you see, you know, between kids

18:39

on the street. It's really disheartening

18:43

in a lot of ways. Um, but

18:46

that I can tell you, I mean, and you may

18:48

and you may know this too from from your own

18:51

experiences. Um, as a

18:53

journalist. The vast majority

18:55

of the journalists I know are

18:58

really doing a yeoman's job at

19:01

trying to tell the stories that they think are important

19:03

for their community and for the nation. And

19:06

you know, maybe globally, if that's the level that they're

19:08

working at, this is

19:10

really a calling for them, and so it's

19:12

really sad that they're getting

19:16

swept up in the corporate tip

19:18

for tat that UM

19:21

is really decimating the

19:24

political discourse and

19:27

the social discourse in this country

19:29

and frankly around the world. UM, And

19:32

they're getting swept up in that. And but

19:34

they're part of those organizations anyway.

19:36

So UM. Again, I think

19:38

the nonprofit route is a great way

19:41

to counter that. But I

19:43

do think that there are organizations, news

19:45

organizations. You know, Look, I'll just say

19:48

it. A PBS News Hour I think is a great

19:50

program, CBS News

19:52

is great, MPR is great. There are

19:54

news organizations that I hope

19:57

audiences will gravitate toward

19:59

more two um

20:01

and support them with their eyeballs,

20:04

UM, so that they really they

20:07

really get better journalism

20:09

out of this and fill their heads in there and

20:11

their hearts with with real stories

20:13

that matter and not and not support

20:16

stuff that that is UM,

20:19

you know, tearing things down. Well,

20:21

I'm gonna pick on one outlet. So I grew

20:24

up, like you did, know, I'm not that much younger than

20:26

you, idolizing CNN of course,

20:28

Cable News Network, right, And there was this

20:30

they had this you know, reputation

20:32

for being this, you know, unbiased,

20:36

straight news, the best

20:38

journalist. It was always my dream to work at CNN,

20:41

right, And suddenly they

20:44

got on this whole outrage machine

20:47

and the punditry and the really

20:50

stepped outside of their brand mission. And

20:52

basically these days CNN doesn't resemble

20:55

what it used to be. For better or for worse, maybe some

20:57

people like it now, it's just from an outside

20:59

person effective. It seems like they really

21:02

built their brand around

21:05

Trump, and now that Trump's gone,

21:07

they're kind of struggling to find their way

21:10

in terms of how they

21:12

can make any money

21:15

and kind of have you know, a

21:17

mission. Yeah,

21:19

well I think, you know, I think they're seeing themselves.

21:21

Look, I had I had many many

21:24

years ago an interview with um

21:27

with the bureau chief of Fox News here

21:29

in l a national the network, and

21:33

you know, we were having a discussion over well,

21:37

are you actually incorporating people

21:39

from the other side in the stories when you say

21:41

it's balanced, you know, as they were actually balanced

21:44

within the story. And

21:47

his response to me is noring, we see ourselves

21:49

as a balance to all

21:51

the other liberal media. And

21:53

I said, well, you know, I don't think this is going

21:56

to be a good fit this is not you

21:58

know, how I approach a story.

22:00

I think that's what you're seeing now

22:03

with some of what's going on at seeing that. I

22:05

think their investigative work in their daily

22:08

stories and the journalists who are working in

22:10

the field are still

22:12

providing excellent journalism. But

22:14

I think you're right. As a brand, they

22:16

have started shifting over as about

22:19

to be a balance in their minds

22:21

to what they're seeing

22:23

as you know, the right

22:26

um, the right wing angle

22:29

of that. So yeah, I mean,

22:31

look, news organizations evolved,

22:34

I guess, and that's the way they're choosing to evolve

22:36

at this point where they evolve in another way again,

22:39

maybe you know, well,

22:41

they might be forced to be evolved in because

22:44

now, I

22:46

mean, do people younger than us

22:48

watch cable news? I asked my staff at

22:50

Bold TV pretty often, and it doesn't seem

22:53

they even watch cable news. I

22:55

mean, it seems to be I don't

22:57

think so. Yeah, I don't think so. I

23:00

don't think so and I and that may be partly

23:03

why they're doing that, is to, you

23:05

know, to gain attention

23:07

and to and to be part

23:10

of that heightened level of

23:12

of discourse that seems to be so prevalent

23:15

in cable anyway. Um

23:17

But no, I don't think. I don't think younger

23:19

people are are watching cable.

23:21

It seems to me, and it's not the you

23:23

know, I think younger people. Um.

23:26

I think millennials and younger are

23:28

not averse to long form right

23:30

there listening to podcasts. They're

23:33

they're watching things on other platforms,

23:36

but they're not necessarily watching cable

23:38

news. Um So, I

23:41

think that's the difference. And I think it's

23:43

a I think it's something that um

23:46

that news organizations, the legacy ones

23:49

are seeing. And so you see in these NBC

23:52

News starting their NBC

23:54

News streaming service right and hiring

23:57

a bunch of journalists for that now. So,

24:00

um So, as long as something is mobile,

24:02

then that's great. CNN is somewhat

24:04

mobile, but the primary

24:06

viewers are on cable and they're older.

24:19

We talk about young people like their cord

24:21

cutters and like they never watch multi

24:23

media ever again, like they

24:26

fell off the face of the planet. It's

24:28

actually kind of absurd the way we

24:30

talk about it, like they're not consuming

24:33

content. You talk to young people and they consume

24:35

because older, older people are

24:37

putting them in a box, right, and

24:39

you know, they're all like this, But that's not the case.

24:41

I'm constantly any time I'm

24:43

around younger generations

24:46

than nine, I'm always asking him, so, where are you

24:48

getting your news? How are you watching it? Where are you listening?

24:50

And all that kind of stuff, And and this is what I'm

24:52

hearing. It's not that they're reverse to

24:55

to those platforms. Is that,

24:57

um, you know, they want something

25:00

that's more mobile, and they want something

25:02

that's actually going to be meaningful. And

25:06

and the tip for Tad and the and

25:08

the the

25:10

heightened discourse is not it's not something

25:12

that that resonates with them. No,

25:15

it really doesn't. And what's funny is there's a

25:17

huge economic incentive to develop

25:19

brands that really appeal

25:22

to young people because this is kind of

25:24

the wild wild West right now. Nobody knows

25:27

where young people will be consuming their

25:29

news, and we talk about news not being profitable,

25:31

but if someone can figure that out, they're

25:33

going to be the next big thing here. I

25:36

mean, can't you see it being somehow you

25:38

know, like virtual reality related or

25:40

something. Something's going to change, right,

25:42

I Mean when I was first coming up, I

25:44

remember, you know, the veterans I was working

25:47

with lamenting that film had gone away because

25:49

it provided them the time and

25:51

the ability to really tell a good story

25:53

in this really beautiful way. And I'm like, tape

25:56

is so much better. It's faster, you know.

25:58

And so as we move on to technology

26:00

changes, and it provides us with different

26:03

platforms in different ways

26:05

that we can we can consume UM

26:08

journalism. And I continue to use

26:10

the word journalism instead of news because I

26:12

want it to be clear that for me, that's

26:15

what's important. It's the storytelling

26:17

at the end of the day, and how is that storytelling

26:20

getting told? Yes, Specifically,

26:22

what I've noticed is there's a lot more documentaries

26:25

right talking about important

26:27

issues in a long form. I feel

26:29

like there's a huge need for that. And

26:32

you have some experience in that field. I

26:35

do. I I mean, documentary

26:38

work is so is so amazing.

26:40

You get to really dive into people's lives,

26:42

you get to dive into um

26:44

issues. I had the good fortune

26:47

of being sent to direct

26:49

and produce UM work

26:51

down the Nicaragua and

26:53

we followed a family who has an American

26:56

family that sold everything they owned to start

26:58

an orphanage in Managua and

27:01

and just really changed their lives

27:04

and of course change the lives

27:06

of the of the children and the families

27:09

who they helped. And then while we were there, we

27:11

also went into

27:14

the largest garbage

27:16

dump in all of Central America where people

27:19

live they have been displaced by hurricanes

27:22

and we're living in abject

27:24

poverty, um in these

27:26

garbage dumps. And this is how they were making

27:28

their living, is picking through for copper

27:31

and anything else they could find to sell

27:33

off for recycling. And it

27:35

was it was horrifying, but it changed

27:38

me and um, and

27:42

it's important to tell those stories. And

27:44

and I think young people,

27:46

I think people of all ages are interested

27:48

in documentary film work right now. They're

27:50

interested in in really understanding,

27:53

um, human stories at a deeper

27:55

level. And and that's something that needs

27:58

to be supported even more, right

28:00

it's documentary film work. And

28:02

and you see some of that happening with CNN

28:05

right there supporting documentary films.

28:07

Um. They have their own films over there.

28:10

Um, their own they're rolling out their own channel.

28:13

Yeah exactly so

28:15

UM. So that's important and that's something

28:17

that I hope continues to grow because

28:21

it is an important source of

28:23

journalissons to do those documentaries.

28:26

Yeah. I'm specifically seeing a renaissance

28:28

in documentaries about environmental issues

28:30

because obvious oftentimes, as you know through your

28:32

fracking coverage, environmental issues are very complex.

28:35

They're not just like oh, just stop and

28:37

suddenly you know, all our problems

28:39

are solved. These are all interconnected problems

28:42

that have to do with economics, poverty,

28:45

you know, corporations, government

28:48

regulation. Talk about just

28:51

a crash course in humanity.

28:53

When you cover environmental issues, it

28:56

really really is. It's very

28:58

complex. Um. They're

29:01

they're often hard stories to tell because

29:03

you especially visually, because you

29:05

can have nice, nice visuals of like

29:08

oceans and fish and you know

29:10

whatever, but it's you're not able to

29:12

see what the environmental damage

29:14

is sometimes um or

29:17

or what that could look like if

29:19

things were improved in a particular

29:21

area. So it is a hard story to tell

29:24

and UM,

29:26

and so you need to approach

29:28

it as always I think from

29:31

the perspective of somebody, um,

29:34

somebody who's being having it an

29:36

impact on it, or is

29:38

being impacted by it. And

29:40

so to work your way in through

29:43

um, through the human aspect

29:45

of it helps people to

29:48

understand how these environmental policies

29:51

affect them and how they

29:53

can start to think about them. A lot

29:55

of environmental reporting, I think

29:58

could could

30:01

go toward the direction of UM

30:03

solutions type journalism,

30:06

where you really investigate where

30:09

the problem is, why it is that way,

30:12

who's involved in that way, provide

30:14

a roadmap to what a solution maybe

30:18

UM and I think there's a lot of that that's

30:20

going on. I know Pro Publica is pretty

30:22

great at that, but it's something that can

30:24

be applied specifically to UM reporting

30:27

on environmental issues. So

30:30

Dina, I have to bring California

30:32

into this because I am soon headed

30:35

that way. We'll be spending more time

30:37

there. California is always,

30:40

you know, the staying has always been as

30:42

goes California, so goes the

30:44

nation. Right, it's usually the trend

30:46

setter, whether it's economics, government,

30:49

culture, etcetera. California

30:51

seems to be in trouble no matter what your politics

30:53

are. You know, hundreds of thousands of people

30:56

have left, the population perhaps has dropped

30:58

for the first time in re in history.

31:01

What's going on in California? That's probably

31:04

the number one question I get as

31:06

a journalist, By the way, what's up with

31:08

California? And what can we do about

31:10

housing? Housing? That's

31:13

the number one issue there

31:15

is the number one issue on so many

31:17

levels. If you're really wealthy,

31:20

you're doing okay. Of

31:23

course. Um, if your middle

31:25

class is getting harder and

31:27

harder to be

31:29

in affordable housing that

31:31

is anywhere near you

31:34

being able to reasonably commute

31:36

to your work. Right, Um,

31:39

if you're on the edge financially,

31:43

your chances of becoming homeless increase.

31:46

The homelessness issue is growing, right,

31:49

and there's there's not

31:52

that much it's being done to

31:54

really address it in a systemic way.

31:57

So the housing is I think

32:00

the biggest issue. I did a report on this a couple

32:02

of years ago when I was UM

32:04

hosting in Focus at Spectrum News

32:06

one here in Los Angeles, and

32:09

it is one of the driving forces for

32:12

why people are leaving the state. It's just

32:14

too expensive to have a roof

32:16

over your head, and

32:18

there isn't enough of it. There isn't enough

32:20

affordable housing. And

32:22

when new housing is being built and

32:26

um and being zoned for

32:29

by by a city or by the county,

32:31

um, it

32:34

is affordable housing.

32:36

And then the rest is luxury units. So

32:40

that makes it even harder. So that's

32:43

that's I think the biggest reason. And

32:45

and is the rest of the country going to go

32:47

in that direction? I sure hope

32:49

not. But that's what's happening here.

32:52

Well. Single family home zoning

32:55

was invented famously in Berkeley,

32:57

California, and it's actually one

33:00

of the weirdest policies to come out

33:02

of the left wing in my opinion,

33:04

because you know, uh,

33:06

pro people policies, you

33:08

would think you would be for affordable

33:11

housing, right, But if you create such

33:14

strict zoning laws, you make

33:17

the housing stock shrink

33:20

and you make prices go to the moon. I

33:22

am shocked by the housing prices in

33:24

California, and it

33:27

seems like the only way,

33:29

the only way out of it is deregulation, getting

33:31

rid of all these zoning policies. Why

33:33

don't we see the government doing

33:35

something like that, because this appears to be a

33:38

largely manufactured problem with

33:40

all these regulations at the local level.

33:44

Right. But then you also, so this

33:46

is a massive debate um

33:48

both at the state level and at the

33:50

local level. And people

33:52

who already own their homes don't want to

33:55

get rid of that because this is an asset.

33:57

This is you know, their family wealth

33:59

is built around the single family

34:02

home that they have, and so who

34:04

wants to get rid of that and have and

34:06

have you know, aspects of the neighborhood,

34:08

the prices come down and then the

34:10

value of their single family home comes down.

34:13

On the other side, of course, people

34:15

need to be housed, and they need to be able to afford

34:17

to to live there and

34:20

to live within the decent proximity of their

34:22

job. The most people

34:24

do not take public transportation. It doesn't

34:26

go to the places that they need to go. And

34:29

so one of the programs

34:31

that one of the plans that is being

34:34

pushed hard on the left

34:36

side is to build these

34:39

communities around public

34:41

transportation. Again, those

34:43

those buildings are majority

34:46

luxury apartment buildings

34:48

and luxury condos.

34:50

So nobody who is going to be

34:52

able to afford that is going

34:54

to give up their BMW or their

34:56

Mercedes to be able to take public transportation

34:59

somewhere. They're going to drive their car. That's

35:01

part of the culture here too. So,

35:04

um, does there need to be deregulation

35:08

on those issues. Yeah,

35:10

I think that that is something

35:13

that those who are supportive

35:15

of affordable housing are looking to do.

35:18

And I don't think the deregulation aspect

35:20

of it is is a right or left issue.

35:22

I think it's how we're going to get more affordable housing,

35:26

and um, and the zoning,

35:28

the zoning restrictions are an obstacle

35:30

to that, absolutely, and that's and

35:33

that is what's being debated again at

35:35

the state level and at the local level. And

35:37

UM, I haven't seen much traction go in

35:40

either direction. I think this is going to continue

35:42

to be a debate because both sides are entrenched.

35:45

It seems like this problem is spreading across

35:47

the country though, this housing crisis, and it

35:50

seems like it makes every

35:52

other societal problem that we have worse.

35:55

And now we see a lot of journalists or people

35:57

who purport to be journalists talking

35:59

about how a renter society is better,

36:02

how you know, we shouldn't care, but

36:05

it's quickly emerging that you know, rents

36:07

go up pretty fast, and housing,

36:09

as you mentioned, is a pretty safe bet

36:11

in the long term to build intergenerational

36:14

wealth. And it seems like California

36:17

is kind of the canary in the coal mine

36:20

or the warning for the rest of the country

36:22

that eventually, you know, restricting

36:25

the construction of housing leads to homelessness,

36:29

poverty, extreme commuting,

36:32

and ultimately just very sub

36:35

optimal outcomes. Absolutely,

36:38

and every level, as you say, so,

36:41

rents here you can't get

36:43

a one bedroom in a in

36:46

a location that you would you know, be able

36:48

to walk to things or anything like that for less

36:50

than a month. Um.

36:52

It's at New York City Manhattan levels,

36:55

right, three thousand dollars UM.

36:58

So that's that is

37:00

really high. And that's

37:02

really high for even middle class.

37:04

It's really high for for anybody

37:06

unless you're making well over a hundred thousand

37:08

dollars a year. So,

37:12

yeah, you have a society of has

37:14

and have not and and

37:17

the middle class just seems to just head for

37:19

the exit door in California. And

37:21

you guys have a higher poverty rate than Mississippi

37:24

at this point. So you know, when

37:27

is the political class going to wake up

37:29

and say, hey, like, we

37:32

got to stop the exodus. You

37:34

know, I honestly, I don't know when

37:37

they're going to actually do something

37:39

about that, because it is going to

37:41

take um is going to

37:43

take a concerted effort on both

37:45

sides. And you know it's California is

37:47

mostly run by Democrats at this point. The

37:49

legislature is democratic, the governor is

37:52

democratic at least for the time being,

37:54

and so um, and so

37:58

I don't know, honestly when they're going to

38:00

actually do something about

38:02

this. I don't. I think it's

38:04

a matter of there's going to be a critical

38:07

level of an exit by people. I

38:09

don't think that's what's going to do it. I think it's going

38:11

to have to be a lot of voices

38:14

clamoring for something to be done

38:16

who are still staying here in the state.

38:19

I don't think people leaving is what is

38:21

going to be the impetus

38:24

for it. It's got to be a lot of

38:26

ground swell and a lot of ground

38:28

work by people at the

38:30

local level to to demand the change

38:33

um in zoning and demand the change

38:35

in terms of being able to house

38:38

the homeless specifically, which is a crisis

38:41

right now. And that's something we see

38:43

as journalists, right we see the momentum

38:45

growing behind the issue. And you already mentioned

38:48

that you're seeing people of all

38:50

political persuasions and backgrounds

38:52

largely agree that we have to change

38:54

the way we're doing things or else

38:57

you know, things aren't going to get better.

39:00

I mean, this is the thing about being a journalist

39:02

I love, is that you need to you

39:04

need to keep your ear to the ground. You need to

39:07

hear um

39:09

what those whispers are that

39:11

are happening. But

39:14

but they're adamant. Right, they may be whispers,

39:16

but they're strong and they're passionate.

39:19

And so you need to be able to take

39:21

that ball and run with it. And you need to be

39:23

able to have a news manager, right, a senior

39:26

or a news editor, whoever it is that you're working

39:28

with, to be able to trust you and say,

39:31

yeah, give you the space to be able

39:33

to run with that, because, um,

39:35

it is it is the job of journalists

39:38

to to really call

39:40

these things out at the earliest possible

39:42

moment so that something can actually

39:45

be done at the political level.

39:47

And and you know, it doesn't

39:49

always happen, but it's sure meant

39:52

to work that way. Well,

39:54

Dina, I really appreciate your time as journalists.

39:57

We don't have a lot of time, and I like

40:00

the way you approach this. Journalism

40:02

isn't always glamorous, but it is extremely

40:05

rewarding, isn't it It is? I

40:07

love it and there's nothing else I could

40:09

imagine doing. It's it's how you

40:11

It's how you get to know people and you get to know humanity

40:14

and yourself. So if

40:16

somebody feels that calling, I hope they follow

40:18

it. Awesome. Well, thank you so

40:20

much for your time. I really appreciate it. Thank

40:24

you, David, Thanks for having what

40:30

a lively conversation with Mr

40:33

Demetrios. You know, a

40:35

lot of times people don't realize how hard

40:37

journalism is. We're expected to

40:39

be experts at everything, and we

40:41

lack one critical thing time.

40:45

We have to take a crash course in nearly

40:47

everything, and we're always accused

40:50

of being biased, and we lack time,

40:52

resources and bandwidth to

40:54

be able to do a story justice, and

40:56

it's a really hard job. You know, on

40:59

our off days, you notice in our

41:01

voice and you see it on our face, and then we

41:03

have to watch recordings of ourselves from

41:06

our off days. So I always remember

41:08

journalism low margins,

41:11

the fastest disappearing white collar profession

41:13

in the world, also one of the hardest jobs,

41:15

but also one of the most rewarding

41:18

jobs. Talk about a profession where

41:20

you get to meet people, learn more,

41:23

and make sure that you have your

41:26

ear to the ground and are listening

41:28

to change. You know, we get

41:30

to learn about things, as my guests pointed

41:33

out, far before the general public.

41:35

We see the little upwellings of change,

41:38

and that we're always way

41:40

ahead of the curve. And that's why this is such

41:42

a rewarding profession and today's

41:45

complicated media landscape, we have

41:47

to make up new business models to meet

41:49

the challenges that we have today,

41:51

specifically monetization

41:54

and making a profit off

41:56

of delivering unbiased news. Let's

41:58

face it, folks, it's a new early impossible,

42:01

but in the meantime, we're trying to make

42:03

the impossible possible every

42:05

single day. I'd

42:10

like to thank my entire production team,

42:13

including our executive producers Debbie

42:15

Myers and former Speaker of the House New

42:17

Gingrich, as well as our

42:20

young interns who are making sure this show

42:22

is fresh and relevant for all

42:24

of you. Follow The Profit is a production

42:26

of Gingwich three six and I Heart Radio. You

42:28

can download us on Spotify, Apple

42:30

Podcasts, or wherever you get

42:33

your podcasts. Part

42:37

of the Gingwich