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Hello, I'll be Donaldson. And if you're listening to

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and we're bringing you it

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first. But don't take our words for it.

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This is the inlet three hours after we launched

1:00

episode one. According to Andy Robinson

1:02

speaking on the video games chronicle podcast,

1:05

according to Andy Robinson via the

1:07

VGC pod cast according to that new

1:09

VGC video game podcast.

1:14

They're all talking about us. I'm not hundred percent on last

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a video games podcast, listen wherever

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t or forward slash VGC.

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That's ellen care dot t or forward slash

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VGC.

1:38

Welcome to Undercontinent, your definitive

1:40

guide to the week in European football. I'm

1:42

Dawson

1:43

Adibail. I'm Adibrasil.

1:44

And I'm Nikki Bandini. On this tale

1:47

of three knockout edition,

1:49

Meland, back where they belong in the quarter

1:51

finals of the Champions League for the first time in

1:53

over a decade, were they saved by

1:56

their goalie? Also, same

1:58

old knockout for PSG in the Champions League

2:00

as they come unstuck in the last sixteen. Again,

2:03

can in Baffey ever win the biggest

2:05

prize in football if he stays in Paris?

2:07

And was it the financial superiority

2:10

of the Premier League that knocked out Dotsman?

2:12

Or was it a mid table English

2:15

club? What done it? Just asking.

2:29

You we are on the road

2:31

at the moment on the continent

2:34

end. Tonight, in

2:36

the background, you are broadcasting essentially

2:38

from Vashava Airport

2:42

And don't forget to leave a tip. Before we get

2:44

on to this edition's topics,

2:47

is there anything that we may have missed, Andy,

2:50

if football wise, on the continent. Well,

2:53

I don't I don't know if anyone's missed it because

2:55

the chaps on ramble reacts with talking about

2:57

Scott Parker and his Gillette

3:00

suit combo in Lisbon earlier

3:02

in the week, rather controversial. But

3:05

if if you're gonna go out, you've gotta go out with a

3:07

bang. And of course, after they lost

3:10

five one Benfica, seven

3:12

one on Agrigger, he was fired from the

3:14

Clubrigger job with the shortest

3:16

statement that you've ever seen. It simply said

3:19

Scott Parker is no longer the coach of Club Burger.

3:22

That was the club statement, which is

3:24

fair enough I I have to say, I I think

3:27

it was a weird appointment. But on the other hand,

3:30

a lot didn't go for him. He

3:32

had to oversee the departure on loan of

3:35

Ruud Forma, one of the club legends

3:37

to Zolta Vadigem. He had a really,

3:39

really difficult program when he came in. Fixtures

3:43

and very little time to to to work

3:45

with the players. And it showed because wasn't

3:47

really able to impose any style on

3:50

the team and Of course,

3:53

they were really second best against Benfica, but, you

3:55

know, they were up against a really, really good side

3:57

that I I don't think many people wanna draw in the

3:59

court

3:59

finals. The shortest dismissal

4:02

notes in football is going to be

4:03

hard to beat, Nicky. Anything that we may have

4:05

missed from your perspective? Well, people

4:08

wanted to miss it if they follow me on Twitter, but I just

4:10

I thought there was a a really sort of wonderful

4:12

video put out by Legacy Yahoo! I'm

4:15

often critical, and I think, with justification of

4:17

how say how handles its marketing,

4:19

but they they did just a a really simple,

4:21

minute long video from before

4:24

almost came against events at the weekend of

4:28

they obviously just miked up the stadium in such

4:30

a way that you could hear the the the

4:32

fans especially and not so much what's happening

4:34

on the pitch, but it's like a a

4:36

sort of pre match moment

4:38

where you had cameras cutting to what's happening on the pitch,

4:40

cutting to Marina, and then I've got cutting to a Legacy on the bench.

4:43

But then cutting back to and hearing

4:45

the pre game and and the inner Roma,

4:48

Roma, my Ventiti at at at the

4:50

Sadio Limbico, and I I know Andy

4:52

can match for this. It's one of

4:55

those iconically Italian experiences

4:57

to be at the Olympic go for that

5:00

anthem. Lots of Italian clubs have

5:02

their own thumbs. I I do think Chromarama

5:04

hits different, some of them. And that

5:07

feeling before kick off, before a big

5:09

game at the Olympics. Go, I think, is right up there

5:11

with with your never walk alone at Amfield.

5:13

think it's it's one of the really special world

5:16

football experiences, and think they

5:18

captured it as well as you probably can, you know, minute

5:20

long Twitter videos. So people haven't seen

5:22

that. They should check it out and then they should go buy

5:24

a ticket to go see team. Go see it over now

5:26

because, frankly, every game is selling out right

5:29

now because of Josie Moreno.

5:30

They need to employ you to

5:33

do their sales mate because you sold

5:35

it to me and said, I can't wait

5:37

to get there. On to the

5:39

other big topics, you know, we have to start

5:41

with Milan and what a

5:43

week for them, Nikki. We will

5:46

come on to what a week it's been for Antonio

5:48

Conte also. But let's start

5:51

with Milan. With this question

5:54

from Michael on Twitter, Are

5:56

they back?

5:59

It's a great question because, of

6:01

course, they are still not

6:04

really in the Championsy places right now for next

6:06

season that they're joined forth with with their grandmother.

6:09

The the tight the headset tie breaker

6:11

is currently unsettled because

6:13

they drew the first game one off. So they're

6:15

very much in a scrap to get back in the championship

6:17

next season. This has not been a plain

6:19

sailing kind of season. But

6:22

it's Milan, and they're back in

6:24

the the Champions League Court of Finals. And I

6:27

I've been really sort of wrestling with this

6:29

thought guys, because,

6:31

look, none of us here are that

6:33

young. So we remember

6:36

Milan as what they have been

6:38

get this great European team. And that

6:41

is the identity of Milan. Milan has seen

6:43

themselves as the European team in Italy.

6:45

Noventis have been for a long time

6:48

the dominant domestic side. They're the team that wins

6:50

the most domestic titles. Milan's

6:53

a whole sense of itself in

6:55

the Sylvia Berfrisco and the ownership era

6:58

was, okay, you know, we

7:00

might want wins there quite as often as events. So we

7:02

wouldn't have plenty, but we don't want as much of them,

7:04

but nobody wins in Europe like we do us

7:06

in real Madrid. And that's what really matters.

7:09

We're the worldwide club. We're the ones that go out

7:11

and conquer the world and and represent

7:13

Italy on the world stage. And and

7:15

a whole generation of fans, so I made

7:17

that point about the the age thing.

7:19

It's a whole generation of fans who doesn't know that mainland.

7:22

Now. They they haven't they haven't won the league for

7:24

eleven years. They haven't played in the European court final

7:26

for eleven years. And

7:28

they're not suddenly back to

7:31

those glory glory days.

7:34

This team is not the team

7:37

that that Stak is to to

7:39

the Champions League final with Chevchenko

7:41

upfront or of ambassador even

7:44

people in Saudi Khakar. This is not

7:46

that team. But

7:49

as a sort of return to

7:52

a a sense of grounding for Milan in

7:54

who they are and who they want to be,

7:56

You've got Paulo Marni back in the directors

7:58

box as of two thousand eighteen. And

8:01

then you've got Stefan

8:03

Appioli leading this young group back somewhere

8:05

that as a club, they

8:07

they think they're supposed to be, and they feel like they belong.

8:10

And and I think that moment is

8:12

is really really meaningful for them.

8:14

They might well be the worst team that ends

8:17

up in the quarterfinals. We'll see, but

8:19

they're in the quarter

8:19

finals, and and that's a big stepping stone.

8:22

I think that sense of history is

8:24

really important actually because, you

8:27

know, you often wonder if it weighs on

8:29

like, it was globally quite a young

8:31

group of players. I mean, you know, people will look

8:33

at Jiroo, etcetera. But the

8:36

the rest of the team is is is very

8:38

young. And you

8:40

can see them growing. I mean, they played pretty well

8:42

in the Champions League last season and didn't get

8:44

out of the group stages, but it seems like they learned

8:46

a lot from in terms of game

8:49

management at this sort of

8:51

level. The the other thing I want I wanted

8:53

to say is in in terms

8:56

of that history thing, I went to

9:00

I I went to Milan Uventis at San

9:02

sierra about three or four years ago.

9:04

And it was when Iguayan

9:07

was playing for Milan. And

9:10

basically, there was a huge chorizo

9:14

on one on one of the covers. And it was

9:16

saying pretty much what you said, like, this

9:18

was when Milan were out of of

9:20

of Europe when they were in the champions league

9:22

for a while. Saying to you venters.

9:25

Look, you you may be on top now,

9:27

but we're the dons in Europe. So and

9:31

making making the most of their latest defeat

9:33

in the in in the Champions League.

9:35

So it it is it is a big deal. But

9:38

it's it's weird looking at how the season's gonna

9:40

end because particularly with that

9:43

LACIO win at Napoli,

9:45

last weekend. It makes everything from

9:48

two to five really condensed. So

9:50

obviously, Roamer have kind of

9:52

kicked the vendors to the curb a little bit by beating

9:54

them last Sunday, and it's huge for them.

9:57

But what we know is taking the vendors

9:59

totally out of the picture. Those teams two to

10:01

five. One really good team is

10:03

gonna miss out on Champions League this season.

10:05

Right? Yeah. Absolutely. The

10:07

the Italian title races is

10:10

long done as they're on who listens to this show will

10:12

know. And and Natalie, yes, they finally

10:14

lost weekend to to Alex here, but they're still

10:16

fifteen points clear. But the

10:18

the top four is is incredibly

10:21

intense. You've got both

10:23

Rome Club making a a real case

10:25

for themselves for the the first time

10:28

in it's it's two decades since they both

10:30

been in the Champions League together. And

10:32

and that is sort of a thrilling sub sub

10:34

narrative of all of own. I mentioned the

10:36

atmosphere at Roman in Romania and

10:39

impact he's had there, but Maritzio Sadis,

10:41

I think connected to the L'Almirall fan base in

10:44

almost is is is power half of the way and

10:46

and he's doing fantastic work there. Obviously,

10:49

in terror currently in in second spot

10:51

and and probably of all of those teams,

10:53

the one who I look at their squad and think, well, you absolutely

10:55

should be qualifying for the Champions League. And

10:58

Milan, as you say, Andy, they are a

11:00

young team still. think when

11:02

we talk about this Championsy Court of Final,

11:04

I wanted to remind everybody because

11:07

this came up on radio interview I did yesterday when

11:09

they were saying, oh, I think that one

11:11

of the hosts was saying, oh, you know, Milan,

11:13

they got the European know how. They

11:15

don't. I mean, six six players in

11:17

the starting eleven yesterday. I'd never play the Champions

11:19

League game for last season. So they are

11:22

still a team of of of

11:24

kids. They've got I

11:27

think the six youngest starting elevens in setting

11:29

out a season, which is not quite as low as it

11:31

was last season, but still

11:33

it's it's really not

11:36

an old group. And it is sort of

11:38

reliant on Sherrude to give

11:40

some of that leadership, especially since Ebrahimovic's while

11:43

he finally did get back on on the pitch recently,

11:46

but but he's no longer the presence that he was.

11:48

And and I think what's actually really

11:51

fascinating in that context to bring it back to this

11:53

ties where you do find the

11:55

leaders in this team and and

11:57

I know a dozen already sort of mentioned it in

11:59

the intro. For me, Mike Meignan's

12:02

return, the leadership impact, the

12:04

the the a free sensitive comfort and composure

12:07

at the back of his team is transformative

12:10

for him

12:10

there. think a completely different look to that

12:12

back line when he's there. It's amazing.

12:14

You've mentioned this before by Mike Mannion,

12:16

but I certainly saw it in this match.

12:19

He arguably was the match winner

12:21

of a of you know, a Neil Neil

12:24

drawer. And we will come on to Antonio

12:26

Conseil, like I said, in a moment. That's

12:28

perhaps an important piece of

12:30

the narrative. But why

12:33

has it taken? You kind of touched on it,

12:35

Nikki, but I don't think you're quite nailed

12:38

why it's taken Milan

12:41

a decade. To

12:43

to to get back to this stage in the Champions

12:45

League, the Court of Finals. You're absolutely right. What

12:47

you said about their legacy you

12:50

know, a decade. That's a long

12:52

time for the team that was on

12:55

in our minds.

12:56

Certainly, in my generation,

12:58

slightly older than yours, in our minds in the 60s

13:00

and 70s when we knew very little about the European

13:02

cup until Manchester United one of course.

13:05

Yeah. It it comes down to

13:07

to, I guess, heaps

13:10

and heaps of of of

13:12

small decisions and and and chapters

13:14

and moments that happen along the way, I think there was a sort

13:17

of steady decline under Bettersgrohe at the

13:19

end where he was no longer able to

13:21

fund the bankroll this extraordinary

13:23

team that he had for so many years and

13:25

and his ability to do that gradually weaned

13:27

off, and then there was the looking for a buyer period, and

13:30

then there was a massive

13:32

of different ownership and and

13:34

and different leadership, and I

13:36

think it's sort of really indicative. One of the things

13:38

I always come back to is Paulo Maldini was offered

13:40

director's jobs at Milan several

13:43

times before he took it. And he he took it

13:45

under Elliott

13:47

Management, which is, you know, a hedge

13:49

fund that looked to make money off the club and did make money

13:51

off the by by sort of buying it, owning

13:53

and then moving it onto Red Bird Capital.

13:56

But nevertheless, was able to sort of convince

13:58

him in that period that we've got

14:00

a serious project. And sometimes

14:04

cynical financial motivation of

14:06

wanting to make money encourages you to make

14:08

good football decisions because those things can go

14:10

hand in hand. And I think it's

14:12

only a miss sort of most

14:14

recent chapter perhaps that Milan have come to terms

14:16

with who they are now, which is something

14:19

that all of Italian football has to do now, which

14:22

has come to terms the fact that we

14:24

are not the richest league. We do

14:26

not have the resources to go toe to toe

14:28

with the Premier League. But, hey, have

14:30

a look at this season. You can still beat their clubs if you

14:32

do it right. And

14:35

and and and cut your cloth accordingly and and make

14:37

sensible decisions. Milan now,

14:39

as we've touched on, here

14:41

because of a youth movement. They're not here because they've

14:43

got millions in or

14:46

hundreds of millions spend to get here. They're here because

14:48

they've got smart recruitment of young

14:50

players. They've hired a manager whose

14:52

greatest strength is nurturing those young players.

14:55

And they've accepted when they

14:57

can't break their bank to

14:59

keep players. I mean, of course, Dunaruma,

15:02

the player of the tournament or the euros, gone

15:04

and into his shoe

15:06

steps, Mike Mangan, who turns out to be even

15:08

better. But you could even look

15:10

at this last summer and say, saying goodbye to

15:12

Franchesia was not an easy thing to do. They would have

15:14

loved to keep him, but they couldn't break their budget to

15:17

to get in there. And they've

15:19

managed to weather it. And I think that's

15:23

Perhaps lesson that in some ways is taught to

15:25

Italian football by Atlanta Land Tour of all the teams, look,

15:27

you can still succeed while being different. You

15:29

just got to do it the right way and and maybe Milan

15:31

if that's my as

15:32

well. I think that's the interesting thing. How they've

15:34

been brave, I think, on and

15:36

off the pitch. I I mean, in in this game at

15:39

at Totham and, you know, I thought I

15:41

thought it was interesting. We'll come to content in a minute, as

15:43

Don was saying, but how he afterwards

15:47

lent into the Milan cliche.

15:49

Someone who knows Italian football is intimately

15:51

as him said, oh, well, look, they've got this incredible

15:53

history in in the competition. What

15:55

do you expect? I think what Hotham

15:58

fans may be expected is to play

16:00

with a little bit of bravery. I I think if

16:02

you look at the way that in

16:04

very different ways, Emmanuel, Tomory,

16:08

Braggendias, and

16:10

Rafael Leard in the way that they carried

16:13

the ball. I think they really cared that they

16:15

hadn't been there before. You know, they

16:17

just applied themselves,

16:19

you know, realistically, on on

16:21

on paper. The top number one, the ten richest clubs

16:23

in the world. You know, it shouldn't really

16:25

be a question, but

16:28

the the appetite they showed, the hunger. And when

16:30

you were talking about manor, I mean, you know,

16:32

we've we've had to have a word beforehand, so we

16:34

don't talk about it for the entire part because

16:37

I also love it. But I

16:39

mean, we're we're talking about the guy who's gonna

16:42

succeed, Hugo Loreese, in

16:44

in the France team. We showed the top and fans why

16:46

last night because you

16:49

know, I think the fact that he was

16:52

largely idle for a lot of the game, probably

16:54

a lot less busy than he would have expected.

16:57

We did everything very tidily and

17:00

then made that key save from Harry Cain

17:03

right at the end. I mean, that shows that he's

17:05

not just is is is not

17:07

just a good goal keeper. He's not just good shot

17:09

stopper. He's someone who's got incredible concentration

17:12

and he can stay in the game

17:13

-- Yeah. --

17:14

even when he's removed from it for a

17:16

lot of it. It's really not just the saves

17:18

for me. I I think the saves are almost the

17:20

the the least of it with my mind. Yeah. Nobody isn't

17:22

very good at making the saves because he is. And and in

17:24

the end, he had to make one crucial

17:26

save at the end of the game and he made it and and

17:29

I don't think every keeper would. It was a tough one

17:31

down by his feet. I

17:33

think his command of

17:35

that penalty area is so drastically

17:38

different to Tatarishani. It's

17:40

such a different experience. When a cross goes

17:42

in, the number of crosses he just claimed

17:44

without making a fuss that wouldn't have been

17:46

claimed before. And and the message that

17:48

then transmits to a

17:50

a central well, a three player

17:53

and back line that's made up of Tamori Kalulu

17:55

and Chow. Tamori is the eldest

17:57

statesman in that group at twenty five years old.

18:00

This sort of the maturity that

18:03

the whole defense showed in this game I thought was

18:05

was really impressive, but I think having that

18:08

certainty of of money behind you

18:11

is a big part of it. And then on top of that, Andy,

18:14

the distribution, I think, is the bit

18:16

that people don't necessarily

18:18

think about with goalkeepers, but think

18:20

is so fundamental to

18:22

all goalkeepers now. You

18:25

see with Maoyan immediately he

18:27

plays higher than Tetrishanu. He plays

18:30

in the sweeper keeper style, and I think

18:32

that pushes the whole team higher. It was noticeable

18:34

to me that even in the first half of

18:36

this game, Meeting had a much higher line than

18:38

they did in the first leg, which is surprising when

18:40

you think they're winning. They're not the team that needed to chase

18:43

goal. And think

18:45

that's part of it. And then the speed

18:47

of his decision making with that distribution, there

18:49

was a moment which I feel like I'm now just

18:51

repeating to anyone who had listened to me because

18:54

It didn't matter in the game in the end,

18:56

but there's a moment in the I think the

18:58

second minute of injury time in the first half.

19:01

When a cross comes into the box and it's not

19:03

a particularly threatening cross and myyingying

19:05

claims it and you've got thirty seconds maybe left

19:07

to go in injury time. And I think

19:10

that it would've been perfectly fine and normal just

19:12

to hold the ball and that's the end of the half, but

19:14

he doesn't. He grabs it and immediately launches

19:17

a overarm out to to the wing and

19:19

Milan get a chance out of

19:21

it, not not a scoring chance, sorry, but an attack

19:23

out of it. This attack breaks down. The cross isn't

19:26

good enough. It doesn't happen. But

19:28

there was an attack there that wouldn't have happened without

19:30

Mike Meininger. And if you do that

19:32

enough time, some of these attacks come good. And

19:34

I think that's the difference that he makes. If

19:36

those those percentages he adds to you every time

19:39

by giving you more of those

19:40

breaks, more of those opportunities

19:42

to to go somewhere with the ball. The

19:45

the post match story from

19:47

the British newspaper

19:49

perspective was where

19:51

to now for Antonio Conte?

19:55

That is the right question maybe from

19:58

our perspective even as on the continent.

20:00

But our listeners in Britain will want to know

20:02

that. How how does this match impact

20:05

on what he decide or if he hasn't already

20:07

decided what to do, Nikki?

20:10

Yeah. I'm I'm reading between the

20:12

lines with my answer here, but

20:15

I think listening to the things he said since coming

20:17

back from his school about a surgery looking

20:19

at his body language, his demeanor,

20:21

the way he is. I I think

20:24

Antonio Conte is is ready for

20:26

a break, honestly. And I think some of that

20:28

is is down to is

20:30

down to real life. Right? Take a step away

20:32

from football for a moment. He's lost three

20:35

people that he was close to to cancer

20:37

in the last year Ventroni, obviously,

20:39

especially his close collaborator and

20:41

the fitness coach who who

20:44

I think has meant so much to him as

20:46

on an individual level. Then

20:49

Luca Viali, who was also close to Nissan

20:51

of Hailevich. And and

20:54

then undergoing his own surgery, gallbladder

20:56

surgery. To me, his his

20:59

whole persona and

21:02

looks so sort of beat

21:04

down at the moment. And I think on a human

21:06

level that's really understandable and

21:08

and I I think it will be absolutely

21:11

my expectation that if this

21:13

Totnam chapter comes to an end as we

21:16

expected to at the end of the season, they've not before,

21:18

I don't think he'll rush to get into another job. I

21:20

think he'll take a break. And he's done that before

21:23

or he's not actually someone who needs to working all the

21:25

time. think you'll see him say, actually,

21:27

I I want to prioritize some other things in my life.

21:29

Yeah. I I think all that's very fair to say.

21:32

And I I think you have to sympathize on a

21:34

on a human level with what he's been through.

21:37

I think as well, though, we have to say that

21:39

Taunton would been like largely

21:42

below par all season than the performances

21:44

have been poor. The football's

21:46

been really poor, and it's not just not aesthetically

21:49

pleasing. The football is is genuinely been

21:51

poor. That was the culmination

21:54

of that really in in in this game gives me land

21:56

where they just couldn't muster any intensity

21:58

at all in a game that they really

22:00

needed to win. Against the team that,

22:03

as you said, club that have great history, but the team

22:05

that they should be able to to beat.

22:07

I I do have some sympathy with him because I

22:09

just don't think the clicks there between

22:11

him and Tatum. It was always a bit of a weird

22:13

fit. And of course, Conte is a winner.

22:16

He's a great coach. But I think, you

22:18

know, when people say, you

22:20

know, would I don't I don't know. Would

22:22

Pet Claudia be able to do it with Stockpork County?

22:25

Maybe we're getting like a mini, mini,

22:27

mini version of of of that in

22:29

a way. Because the way Conte

22:31

goes in and he's he's a whirlwind, he

22:35

he demands change and he gets it.

22:38

I'm not sure if that is actually

22:40

possible in in a Premier

22:42

League context. I mean, they've they've tried to give

22:44

him what what he's wanted. I don't think there's

22:46

any doubt about that. You know, there went a full way to get

22:48

Pedro Poto in. For example, he made a bit

22:50

of difference when he came on. But I

22:53

think really in terms of the sort of extent

22:56

of change he would want the

22:58

extent of squad pruning he would want. I

23:00

don't think he could do that in a Premier League context

23:02

because the budgets are so high. Is

23:04

far harder to ditch unwanted players.

23:07

And to bring everyone in, it's just prohibitively

23:10

expensive. Unless your Manchester

23:12

City, who they're competing against

23:14

theoretically. don't mean to defend

23:16

Totnam's performances with everything I just said about

23:19

Conte and and real life. I think you can

23:21

separate those two things out totnam were

23:23

abysmal across these two ties and

23:25

and and such a disappointment. I think was

23:28

really sort of illuminating to

23:30

bring it back to the initial conversation about

23:33

Milan and how they got to this point of not being

23:35

a a force in European football anymore. You

23:37

know, before kickoff, they

23:39

were they were taking Italian journalists I

23:42

mean, our directors around Totnam

23:44

Stadium to show off this

23:46

is what we want to do. We want have our own stadium.

23:49

We need to seventy's future and have all this financial

23:51

possibility. And I think

23:53

from the Italian side, everyone's sort of looking

23:55

at Tata Motors going, and you have all of this financial

23:58

possibility and and that's the best you can do

24:00

as a football team. You know, it's it's

24:02

it's sort of striking, I think,

24:05

the the perspective is on this and and and

24:07

sound underwhelming tone of my

24:09

across to you next.

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26:06

Let's go from Tottenham to

26:09

PSG because arguably, the

26:12

fans of buying could be looking at PSG

26:15

and say, you've got all those

26:17

big stars and that's the best

26:19

you can do. Come on,

26:21

guys. Is it time for

26:23

PSG to clear

26:26

the decks and start again? This

26:28

project of Freddie

26:30

Galatikos

26:31

isn't working. Andy? No,

26:33

it's not. And talking of Galatikos,

26:36

I love the cover of marker today. Where

26:38

it had a picture of a rather cheese, off

26:40

looking kiln and bape from the

26:43

game in Munich, and it said, if

26:45

if you want if you want to win the Champions League,

26:49

now you know where to go. Meaning,

26:52

like, you you you ain't ever gonna do it AAA

26:55

Paris and look

26:57

what you could have won. And

26:59

I don't think as we've said on OTC

27:02

before in in previous weeks that

27:05

a revival of the possibility

27:07

of Mbappe going to Madrid

27:10

is is off the table by any stretch of the imagination.

27:14

But III mean, we we said

27:16

before how and I've I've said before

27:19

extensively how I

27:22

think it's impossible really for

27:24

them to win the Champions League with this front three

27:26

of and Bape messing a

27:30

Naimar. Of of course, because

27:33

they're they're just not good enough off the ball.

27:35

Having said that, they were

27:38

without Naimar and

27:40

yet the fit of the midfield was

27:42

still a little bit clunky last night.

27:44

And I think because Accommodating

27:48

that three has made

27:50

it difficult to put out a a champions

27:53

league winning midfield. I

27:55

I think it's it's It's made it tough. It's

27:57

made it tough. Even though it's been excellent in recent

27:59

weeks for Fabian Ruiz to

28:01

settle, Vittinia, who obviously needs

28:03

scored in the first half half that Jan Jan

28:06

Sommer era. He has

28:08

started the season very well and then was

28:10

needlessly pushed forward into the ten and

28:12

and that sort of messed with his form. And

28:17

then you have Marco Venati's

28:19

performance, which I'll really be

28:21

interested to get your opinion on this, Nikki.

28:23

But I I thought it was interesting how

28:26

the teenager bit shy of who got got

28:28

it in the neck for that opening

28:30

goal by cheaper moting. And

28:33

yet, really, it's Ferrari dribbling

28:36

it across his own penalty box that that gives

28:38

it away. I I know he he receives

28:40

the ball in a less than ideal area. But

28:42

Verrati who, you know, I think

28:45

Verrati is a player, a midfield player

28:47

that no one in the world really can quite

28:49

do what he does. But if we're

28:51

talking about fulfilling and

28:53

completing potential, I

28:56

I think of going back about ten years to when

28:58

first arrived and it is that long ago. And

29:00

Carla Angelotti absolutely used to do his

29:02

nut about variety dribbling

29:04

across the face of his own penalty box.

29:06

And he stand there shouting in

29:08

in Italian not to do it. And think it's remarkable

29:11

that ten years

29:12

on, Faraci is still doing that.

29:14

I

29:14

have such a I have such a soft spot for Margarati.

29:16

I can't help that. He's one of those

29:18

people who I I have had the pleasure

29:20

of of of sitting down with and and

29:22

and speaking to one on one, and and he's just got such

29:24

a character that is hard not

29:26

to warm to in person that that

29:28

what you sort of want to you want good

29:30

things for him. And I and I think

29:32

what's interesting, I was

29:34

just thinking as as you were talking, it

29:38

was such a brave decision at least

29:40

considered at the time to to

29:42

go and take that move

29:44

to Paris. You know, you had

29:46

a young player coming up initially at

29:48

a time when Italian football was

29:50

not at its at its peak,

29:53

so there isn't, but it was in that sort of

29:56

difficult phase of of not just Milan

29:58

as we talk about, but lots of clubs hitting this realization

30:01

point of of no longer being the swaggering forces

30:03

of Europe they used to be and the money not being

30:05

there and and a lot of sort of introspection

30:08

and and questions about where Italian football

30:10

was going. And he he took a

30:12

a leap and went to Paris and said, no, I'm gonna

30:14

go somewhere where I think I can play at the highest

30:16

levels and and push myself on. And

30:19

I think my fellow extra brave decision at a time.

30:22

And I I wonder if there's been a lack of bravery

30:24

and not moving on again at

30:26

some point in staying in Paris where it's been

30:29

very comfortable in lots of ways. But he hasn't

30:31

necessarily grown

30:33

as much as as he should have done. And

30:35

of course, that then needs into might

30:38

there be someone else who, everyone's worried,

30:40

could stay there too long as then French

30:43

center forward who might have just

30:45

won the World

30:46

Cup, but couldn't make it happen in the Champions League.

30:48

Yeah. And lots to think about in that respect,

30:50

but the reason well, part of the reason

30:52

why we're talking about this, you feel

30:55

your team with mate in a ideals.

30:57

There's gonna be a lot of interest. In

31:00

the team, what happens to the team and

31:02

where their project has gone right or wrong.

31:05

So there's a lot of feedback from

31:07

OTC listeners on

31:09

this. This question on Twitter from

31:13

Seth, he says, this to you

31:15

shortly, Andy. So let me

31:17

get my head around this. Wood PSG

31:20

supporting a greater redistributive

31:23

model in League and give

31:25

them a better chance of

31:27

winning the Champions League by ensuring that they

31:29

play

31:30

competitive games more regularly. That's

31:33

a great question. It is.

31:35

But I think there's a bit

31:37

of myth attached to it because

31:39

I think if you look at if

31:42

if you look at the the the top European

31:44

leagues or top continental European leagues

31:47

over the the last decade or so,

31:50

think we can accept Italy from there since the

31:53

Uventis sort

31:56

of domination as split

31:59

But when you look at,

32:01

say, that

32:03

when the event has had their several times

32:05

in a row, when you look at buying and

32:08

their tenant where's

32:10

the league where there's

32:12

an exception where you've got a Montpellier or

32:15

a Monaco or a little, and

32:17

you've got title race this season with

32:20

Lars and Marseille doing their thing.

32:23

It's France.

32:25

And I think it's

32:28

it's it's something that Jean Michel Alastair never

32:31

shuts up president of of Lyon. Brought

32:33

up originally after QSI took

32:36

over PSG. He went

32:38

to them and he said, well, why don't you lend us Mamadou

32:41

Saco and Clemen Shantong because now you got loads

32:43

of you won't need them in your team, and it

32:45

will make the league more attractive. And

32:47

it was easier to say back then as well

32:49

because They

32:52

were being being

32:54

sport and thus the owners of PSG

32:56

were also part owners of

32:59

the legal rights. So it's like if you wanna preserve

33:01

the value of your rights, you gotta preserve the integrity

33:03

of the competition. This this should

33:05

be the the way you went. I I don't know if

33:08

if being slash QSI really

33:10

ever took that that seriously

33:12

enough. But I think we've seen with Brian

33:15

and how good they are in the Champions League. I mean,

33:17

this is the way to frame it. There's one ten in

33:19

a row and they're they're still able to to

33:21

muster that intensity. They're still able to

33:23

to to knock it up a level. The

33:25

biggest matches still bring the best out of them

33:27

domestically and and internationally. And

33:29

we saw that particularly in the in

33:32

the second half last last night. And,

33:34

you know, Levandowski may have gone, but, you

33:36

know, they just find a a different way of getting it

33:38

done because they've got loads of great

33:40

players and loads of huge personalities in

33:43

in that team. So I'm necessarily

33:47

sure that it's that. I just think

33:49

at the moment PSG,

33:51

I don't think it's even they don't know what they wanna

33:53

be. They can't be what they wanna and

33:56

it's partly because of that Stak model.

33:58

So, you know,

34:01

that they wanted to hand

34:03

the keys to mbappe. And it's been overcooked

34:06

a bit, like, with people taking it out of context

34:08

and saying, well, he's basically the sporting

34:10

director and all the this sort of stuff, which is

34:12

non really. But the the

34:15

the team would move to the the rhythm

34:17

of his drum makes makes better sense in in

34:19

every way, in an ideological way

34:22

in a cohesion

34:24

way in all of those, but you can't shift Naimar.

34:27

And of course Naimar is was

34:29

unavailable for this because

34:31

of his injury, which will keep him out for

34:33

the rest of the season. It's a

34:35

recurrent injury.

34:38

I think it's more likely that Mbappe leaves the

34:40

summer than the name are. I don't see how they can shift

34:42

it. Well, I'll tell you one joke,

34:45

Nikki. We've got a tweet from Jay who says

34:47

does anyone agree with Danny

34:49

Mills on commentary saying

34:52

PSG should sell Embappe

34:54

and higher Moreno. It seems

34:57

that completely insane idea to Jay,

34:59

but it would be hilarious. I think we'd have to agree.

35:03

I mean, you

35:05

know, I I think it would be

35:09

as of all things, ringo. A

35:11

fascinating thing to watch from the outside.

35:17

I don't think that that would make them better

35:19

as a football team know because Killeen

35:22

and Vape is the best one of the best players in

35:24

the world. I think probably the best player in the world still.

35:27

And No. I don't think it's

35:29

good idea. I think it would be something

35:31

to

35:33

to observe, but no, I don't think

35:35

it's a good idea. See,

35:37

if if you're playing devil's advocate, you could

35:39

say that if they if they

35:41

can't shift Neymar, maybe

35:43

they have to move to a way of of

35:46

of working around him. Mhmm. I I guess

35:48

that's that's that's the only way

35:50

of of looking at at it in that direction.

35:53

But it but it is it is difficult. And

35:55

I think at the moment where it's

35:57

just been messier than they are, you

36:00

just see how incredibly bleak

36:03

a post and ballet future

36:05

is. Mhmm. IIII think it's it

36:08

looks it it looks bad. And without the financial

36:10

flexibility, that you're gonna get

36:13

with without with getting Namar off the wage

36:15

bill. You kind of stuck anyway. Just

36:17

to reiterate, he has a contract till

36:19

twenty twenty seven That

36:22

is very hard to get out from London, especially

36:24

at that price.

36:30

Let's talk about Daltzmann now who

36:32

went down at Sanford Bridge,

36:34

you could say, hardly without

36:37

a fight, I would have

36:40

thought. And Andy, it just strikes

36:42

me that we are watching two

36:44

teams at this stage of the two different

36:46

teams at this stage of Champions

36:47

League. Who are in two different leagues?

36:51

Yeah. It it did actually. I I would agree

36:53

with that, Don, because, I mean,

36:55

Ed in Tursich, the coacher, Bruce Adorn,

36:57

was very careful afterwards to say, I don't want

36:59

to talk about Chelsea's budget. And

37:02

you're thinking what we just did really didn't.

37:04

By by by mentioning

37:07

it. And yeah, I think

37:09

it's I think it's kind of unavoidable when you

37:11

look at the options to to

37:13

Chelsea. And, you know, Dortman had been sensational

37:16

this year. Ten wins out, ten before they got

37:18

to Stak Bridge. And then

37:21

they gave a really flat

37:23

performance. I was I was there on

37:25

Tuesday night. And, yeah,

37:28

that that that there just wasn't much energy in them.

37:30

And that to me said, where's

37:33

the depth? I mean, they've lost some important players

37:35

like not adi, Amy,

37:38

No. Cobalt, they're goalkeeper, and we talked about

37:40

we're talking about the gap between my

37:43

man yard and Tata Rusanya, the confidence

37:45

that gives that defense the ability

37:47

to distribute all all that sort of stuff.

37:50

That's what that's what Dortman will act in

37:52

as as well, I think. You

37:54

know, Alexander Meyer is an okay

37:56

gold keeper, but really not on the same level

37:58

at all. And the the Union

38:00

Brant goes down in the first five minutes and think

38:02

this is really an injury too far. You know, someone

38:04

who's been in the absolute form of his life this

38:07

season, and it really negatively

38:09

affects their ability to get up the pitch. Because

38:11

Dortman had more of the ball, but they

38:14

played at such a glacial pace. It

38:16

was it was difficult for them to really threaten

38:18

Chelsea, even quite a fragile Chelsea.

38:21

But then you look at the other side of that, Chelsea

38:23

who've been out of Nick for

38:26

a lot of this season. And

38:28

then you get the

38:31

flickers from Schwab

38:34

Felix who thought was pretty good.

38:36

Can I have it? Who I thought was really good?

38:38

And he's still laboring little bit

38:40

on in in trying to become a center forward,

38:42

but, you know, I think it's something worth

38:45

persevering with. And in

38:47

that context, when Chelsea

38:50

are where they are, when they're still a bit dysfunctional,

38:53

and yet they're able to beat

38:55

all my do. I had that had their own difficulties and,

38:57

you know, it didn't make it easy for for

38:59

Chelsea. I think it is kind

39:02

of hard not to draw that conclusion to an extent.

39:04

Nicki, I suppose when

39:06

you look at the two teams,

39:09

it's hard to -- from

39:11

what Andy says in ePEB's sort

39:13

of different or slightly more profound

39:16

perspective on this by being at the

39:18

match. But it's hard to

39:20

sort of get away from the fact

39:22

when watching it on television, it looked like

39:24

Dortman were fighting a rearguard action

39:27

and they were losing in that as

39:29

well. Is it simply a question

39:32

of now that the Premier League is

39:34

pulled so far away from the

39:36

rest of Europe that you can't have teams

39:38

like Dortmann, standing

39:40

much of a chance against what is a mid

39:43

table team in the Premier League.

39:45

III think it's really tempting to build those

39:47

narratives around thing. And and I'm one

39:49

of the first to always say, like, look,

39:52

be realistic about it. Premier League teams should

39:54

win more often than not. In Europe because they've

39:56

got more money. That's that's that is the reality.

39:59

But I I think it's it's easy to

40:01

sort of let that sort of bigger

40:04

picture forces into

40:06

these sort of stories that

40:08

that don't capture the individual scenarios.

40:11

And I actually just thought this was a really

40:13

compelling game of football with

40:17

two teams that that went

40:19

for it. Instead, contrast to the

40:21

to the Totnam game. I

40:23

thought the whole atmosphere inside Fernando and

40:25

you can see to this part of it better than I can, but

40:27

it it felt like it was electric watching

40:30

Antelli. It felt like the whole place was alive and it was

40:32

buzzing and that

40:34

sort of transmitted itself to

40:36

the pitch because You know,

40:38

again, adult men were winning from

40:40

the first leg and played quite

40:43

aggressively. I think perhaps took more risks than

40:45

they should have done given they were one loved different approached

40:47

to to Milan who again, as I said, before,

40:49

did play higher up than they had in the first leg,

40:51

but not with that sort of tempo and and and

40:53

risk taking. And I thought Graham Potter

40:55

just got his his tactics bang on

40:57

when it went to that back three, pressed

41:00

the pressed possession

41:03

really aggressively and look for those quick transitions

41:05

and hit them very effectively. And I think that sometimes

41:08

we can get lost in in the big picture

41:10

in and and step away from the fact that, like, these

41:12

were two good teams. I think Dortman showed

41:14

in the first, like, that they can be better than Chelsea

41:16

in ninety minutes. But in this

41:18

game, perhaps lifted by

41:21

that great sort of loud atmosphere

41:23

at Stanford Bridge. Chelsea got

41:26

the wind in their sails, got those those

41:28

successful got

41:31

that press working successfully, and and I think

41:33

maybe got into doorman's heads a little with the

41:35

noise and with the pressure and with the feeling

41:37

of where snapping your your heels and taking

41:39

the ball off you constantly.

41:41

Having said all this, Daughman is

41:43

still up for a chance of the double

41:45

in Germany, Andy. Yeah, they are.

41:47

And III think that's where Nicky

41:50

but on in saying, you know, we can write

41:52

a narrative around it that's not completely

41:54

there because there was still not that much in it. Even

41:56

even though Dortman didn't play that well, they were still in with

41:59

chance right to the end. There was the

42:01

stuff with the penalty, which was

42:04

interesting applications of the law. I

42:06

think we can say it, the the very least, very literal

42:09

applications of the law in in in in

42:11

many cases. But I

42:14

think for for Dortman to to to

42:16

hide behind that is is is not fair. They could they

42:18

could have been better on the night, and and they

42:20

will know that. I think for them getting

42:23

their players back is really important.

42:26

They're away at Shawke this weekend. I mean,

42:28

this has been a huge week for them

42:30

because they were home to Lactic last Friday,

42:32

which they won. And my

42:34

goodness, they had to put a lot into win that,

42:36

particularly in the with the closing stages

42:39

where they really did have to fight a proper rearguard

42:41

action. And then the Chelsea game now

42:43

have got to go away to Shawka who are in their best form

42:45

of the season. Surprisingly, there's six matches unbeaten

42:47

and they've won the last two. So, you

42:50

know, there's there's lot still to

42:52

be gained from this season. And

42:54

I I think if if you look at where

42:56

Dortman were at Christmas, remember they went into

42:58

the winner break six and on two successive

43:00

defeats. And now they're living on points

43:02

of buying at the top. It's it's still pretty

43:05

amazing. And you talked about them

43:07

before how they in previous years,

43:09

they've they've done stuff in the Champions League.

43:11

That's right. But it's it's not been for a while.

43:14

This is a team that needs

43:16

to gain a form, gain

43:18

an identity, which I I you know, there are

43:20

early signs there in the process of doing that.

43:23

And then the Champions League is the next stage because

43:25

that's what they did the first time on the

43:26

clock, you know, they they won the league twice in twenty

43:29

eleven, twenty and twenty thirteen was the one where they

43:31

went and did it in Europe. Jude Bellingham got

43:33

a lot of criticism from the German

43:35

fans after this match.

43:40

Was it justified? They suggesting

43:42

they were suggesting anyway that he didn't show

43:44

up.

43:45

III think you know, that's

43:47

that's a little unfair. He's been outstanding

43:49

in the whole time that he's he's been there.

43:52

He didn't have his greatest match. And funnily enough,

43:54

I think Enzo Fernandez, the most expensive

43:56

player in British history. British

43:58

football history, let let us remember, was

44:00

a big part of that. I thought he was absolutely terrific,

44:02

really energetic, snappy, tightly

44:05

on the ball as as as well. So

44:08

look, it wasn't one of you, Bellingham's best

44:10

night, but he's he's given Dortman an incredible

44:13

amount and he'll continue

44:14

to. He's a he's a leader. I mean, and he won't

44:16

try and duck that. He won't shy away from

44:18

the fact that he was he was below par than

44:24

Like LL Cool Jay said, Mama said, Nocula

44:27

and we have given you a tale of three

44:30

knockouts on this edition of

44:32

OTC. So all that remains

44:34

is for game

44:36

of the week. From Nikki and

44:39

from Andy. I feel I feel a bit nosy with this

44:41

one because I feel like it's almost so obvious

44:43

to figure chan music game, but know what? It

44:45

is in the next week until on

44:48

the continent. And the game that I'm honestly

44:50

looking forward to most this week is Porto

44:52

again Zinta. Obviously, it's always a treat

44:54

to watch Napa in Europe, but fair tie against Frankfurt.

44:57

It looks like it's pretty done. So

44:59

this is the big question mark for me

45:01

among the Italian clubs is can into

45:04

a hold on to what they got in that first leg against

45:06

portal. And I thought they

45:08

rode their luck a little bit in that game, and

45:10

I thought they definitely showed

45:13

some vulnerabilities as vulnerabilities are still there.

45:16

They've got so many

45:18

questions with this team about what's going

45:20

to be there from week to week will or time be good, Lattaro

45:23

or bad, Lattaro. Will Luca

45:25

likely be able to to play to

45:28

give us those glimpses of of what he used

45:30

be rather than what he's been lately. And

45:32

and on on the portal side, I think they got quite

45:34

a few injuries coming into this one. So it's

45:36

a tie that I think I'm most excited about

45:39

in the in the a Champions League

45:41

and and seeing how it plays

45:42

out. And I also

45:45

know you'll want a food pairing and

45:47

I'm gonna keep it simple with

45:48

Oh, we relish it. We

45:50

wait. You know your your true

45:52

always were to hear, mate. Yeah. Of

45:54

course. That's must say, that's

45:56

amazing. But I relish when you come

45:58

on to give us a little bit of cultural

46:01

delicacies, and I love it. Is it gonna

46:03

be pizza or pasta?

46:06

Neither. Neither. I I think

46:10

for for a a millionaire's club, but in week

46:12

that Milan won in Europe as well, let's go for

46:14

a classic Just

46:17

traditionally, it's a aveal

46:19

cutlet, just bashed

46:21

in bashed in and covered in breadcrumbs, but

46:24

Mammoy's do them with pork. So if don't wanna have a meal, you

46:26

can just do them with pork or even chicken, and they're all

46:28

tasting goods. So, yeah, have that with some little

46:31

small little roasted potatoes, roasted olive

46:33

oil, yum, delicious. Yeah.

46:35

That

46:35

sounds good. Although David cartridge and I

46:37

will be out there doing an at the match,

46:40

at the drag out next week. So

46:42

we'll be strictly on the Francesineas

46:45

in the behind. So what would be your

46:47

day of the week? Well, looking outside and

46:49

seeing the snowy fields of at

46:51

least some parts of of of Warsaw, I'm

46:53

gonna have to head straight for Andalicia, Sunday

46:56

afternoon. Severe

46:58

versus Almirall. Now Severe

47:01

got an absolute chewing at

47:03

Adletica last week. I mean, when

47:06

Antoine Grier has meant in that kind of form

47:08

is hard not to couple for Memphis as well on

47:10

his first start for for Atlantica. But

47:13

I think it was Marco said

47:16

severely defended like a team.

47:19

Their defense was not worthy of a top division

47:22

team, which I I thought was quite a

47:24

brutal way of putting not particularly unfair. They've got a

47:26

lot of injuries at the moment. They're big

47:28

defensive signings. Mark How has missed most of

47:30

the season. And there's been a lot

47:32

speculation in in in Seville that Jorge

47:36

San Paolo might actually get a push. And

47:39

he he said, look, if if they sat

47:41

me, I'm not sure I could complain at at the

47:43

moment. Know, there's been even talk about hiking

47:45

caparoz coming back as

47:47

a sort of firefighter. They really

47:49

need a a result out of this against

47:52

now, Maria, who, as we've seen recently, brilliant

47:54

our home, not so much

47:56

on the road. There is only

47:58

one way for Severe. They have to go

48:01

and win this because it's it's it's super tight

48:04

at the bottom. But yeah.

48:06

IIIIII think even though it's

48:09

Portuguese, I'm gonna have to say Francesania for

48:11

because it's such a substantial meal. I don't

48:13

think you can just have it over one match.

48:15

think maybe like half of this

48:17

match and half of the the the the

48:19

next

48:20

one. I like the way you did that.

48:22

Thank you. The

48:31

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