0:00

The following content is not suitable for children.

0:02

Stage two, sexual pursueers.

0:05

Here we go. Let's get what you

0:07

need. What do you think? Finally,

0:09

finally, we're gonna talk about

0:11

it. Getting what we need.

0:13

Getting what we need.

0:18

Welcome to four play radio, couples

0:20

in sex therapy. I'm Laurie Watson,

0:22

your sex therapist.

0:23

And I'm George Fallon, a couple's therapist.

0:25

And we are passionate about talking

0:27

about sex and helping you develop

0:30

a way to talk to each other.

0:31

Our mission is to help

0:33

our audience develop a healthier relationship

0:36

to sex that integrates the

0:38

mind the heart and the body.

0:41

Don't forget to check out Uber lube dot com

0:43

with the coupon foreplay. It really helps

0:46

us to support the podcast and keep delivering

0:48

free content. Thanks so much.

0:50

Remember to sign up now. For the October

0:52

twenty eighth, Great Love, Great Sex,

0:54

Couples Retreat at four play,

0:56

sex therapy dot com.

0:58

Sexual pursueers tend to be pretty good

1:00

at asking for what they need. They ask

1:02

for what need with a baseball bat a lot of times

1:05

it feels like for the return. Right? That criticism.

1:07

So how do we get them to

1:10

ask

1:10

for what they need in more productive ways?

1:13

that lead to better outcomes. I

1:15

think that's what we're gonna talk about.

1:17

Yeah. I think in stage two, there

1:19

is, for the pursueer, quite

1:21

a bit of work to do. It's certainly

1:24

there is softening in the way we ask.

1:26

And managing

1:29

the anxiety inside so

1:31

that it doesn't blast our partner. I

1:34

I also think that as a sexual pursueer,

1:37

you know, we need to figure out the same

1:39

sorts of things, though, that there are

1:41

maybe places inside that

1:44

fuel our pursuit that

1:48

are

1:48

about things that

1:49

are deep inside, that

1:51

aren't necessarily always sexual, you

1:54

know, and revealing that becoming vulnerable

1:56

about that,

1:58

I think draws a partner to us.

2:00

Right. Yep.

2:01

Just just a little example, you know, I

2:03

know sometimes wanna have sex when I'm anxious.

2:06

And, you know, sex calms me

2:08

down. It makes me feel cold.

2:10

It makes me feel good. It

2:13

distracts me. And that's fine.

2:15

I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but

2:17

if it overwhelms

2:18

my partner, then

2:20

it's like, I need to probably

2:22

reserve more of the

2:24

asking for the times that I feel

2:26

I want

2:26

him, that I I want it to be erotic,

2:28

that it's not just Why

2:31

are you laughing? I'm

2:32

laughing because so many withdrawers or sexual

2:35

withdrawers are listening and being like, damn, I'd

2:37

love to have that, like, as a stress reduction.

2:39

So often sex is a stress increase

2:42

for them. Right? It's a fair pursuing.

2:44

It's a reduction. They feel like their

2:46

anxiety just melt away after that.

2:48

orgasm. Exactly. Which is really

2:50

cool.

2:50

So But

2:52

it's a it's a need inside. Like, I

2:55

I can learn to talk about those feelings

2:58

and and tell my partner, you know, what's

3:00

coming up inside me rather

3:03

than just asking for sex.

3:05

you know, I could talk about the things that I

3:07

need from them. It's like -- Mhmm. --

3:09

I'm anxious right now. I need some comfort.

3:11

My brain goes to sex. But,

3:13

you know, if you could listen to me. I I mean, I

3:15

think getting in touch with

3:19

what we feel as a sexual pursueers

3:22

becoming essentially more emotionally intelligent

3:24

so that we can strain out the

3:26

eroticism from the other noise

3:29

that feels like it's

3:30

pressure to have sex. you

3:32

know, is part of the work of the sexual

3:35

pursueer. Right. And

3:37

then timing matters because as

3:40

you were saying, sexual pursuits

3:42

try to soften all the time. They're always

3:44

trying to figure out the right

3:46

way of saying things. But

3:48

having that withdrawal reengage is

3:51

a big part of the softening, knowing

3:53

that this withdrawal is is is letting

3:55

you into that world. That's explaining what

3:57

blocks them when, you know, it shows their

3:59

vulnerability. Like, that does a lot that

4:01

a pursue is hard -- Mhmm. -- that they

4:04

feel included. They feel the

4:06

engagement. that makes it easier

4:08

to wanna reciprocate, to wanna talk

4:10

about what's going on with them.

4:12

Right?

4:12

That it's hot. The

4:14

withdrawal's fear is failure.

4:17

They're doing it wrong. That's why they need

4:19

reassurance. Once we go

4:21

to pursue a the fear is rejection.

4:23

I keep wanting it and initiating and

4:25

you don't seem to want it. Mhmm. So

4:27

again, what what is the need?

4:29

What is the longing? in rejection.

4:32

Yeah.

4:33

I mean, I think there is the

4:36

I

4:36

I wanna add something to that.

4:38

The fear is of being rejected with

4:41

the partner, but then the

4:43

self says I'm too much. My

4:45

needs are always gonna be too much. I'll

4:47

always be hungry. I'll

4:49

always need too much. My you know, it's it

4:51

becomes kind of this black hole,

4:54

no pun intended. You know, just, you

4:57

know, the sense of I'm

4:59

going to collapse in on myself

5:01

because

5:01

my need is so much.

5:03

Yes. So if

5:05

you listen to that, shame

5:08

or that rejection, you can

5:10

see the longing is really wanting

5:12

an active response from the

5:14

pot -- Mhmm. -- right, to be wanted.

5:16

to be enough, to be accepted,

5:18

to be desired, to be

5:21

seen, to be chosen, to be

5:23

fought for, to be believed, and to

5:25

initiate with. I mean, these

5:27

are all active verbs. Mhmm. Right?

5:29

These active verbs on the mature

5:31

are so soothing to these pursuing

5:33

longings.

5:35

Mhmm. So

5:37

again, that's the goal that we're working

5:39

towards. How does the how does the

5:41

sexual pursuing tap

5:43

into these places and themselves.

5:46

That doesn't just focus on a mature

5:48

but actually it starts to say, this is my

5:50

insecurity. This is kind of how

5:52

you can help me. Ask him

5:54

for a help. for the need

5:57

is very different than a criticism.

5:59

Mhmm. So

6:01

when I'm rejected as a

6:03

sexual pursuing, I

6:05

have to figure out kind of what

6:07

do I need,

6:08

what would

6:09

what would make it better. Obviously,

6:12

sex would make it better, but -- Mhmm. but

6:14

it's now we have to heal the rejection,

6:16

you know. Yeah. We have to

6:18

heal that feeling inside. Yeah.

6:21

And

6:21

if we go back to what we were

6:23

talking about with the withdraws. If we could

6:25

try to differentiate or break it

6:27

down into three different

6:29

types of needs, I wouldn't so

6:31

I think sometimes to pursue it needs

6:34

permission for their

6:36

frustration and anger. that they

6:38

have they keep trying and they keep getting

6:40

rejected and then they blame because

6:42

they're they're trying so much. I mean, that's a

6:44

really tough spot. to be understood,

6:46

to be given permission that it's healthy,

6:49

to wanna initiate, to fight for

6:51

the relationship, to wanna have sex, there's

6:53

not something wrong with you, It's

6:55

a natural thing. Right?

6:57

It's the cycle that messes it all up,

6:59

but there's nothing wrong that you want that.

7:01

Nothing wrong, it's healthy, and thank you for

7:03

doing that. you know, what's that like for a prosuity

7:05

here? Yeah. Oh, relief. Total

7:08

relief. Right. You know, so

7:10

that

7:10

this part is is a good thing,

7:12

that the relationship needs it, that they need

7:14

it. You know, it's a reminder.

7:17

The fear is I'm too much that

7:20

with you or say, no, this is actually

7:22

good. We need this. Thank you

7:24

for it. How could that not

7:27

feel good? that

7:28

feels good

7:29

to be told that their their

7:31

drive, their initiation,

7:34

their

7:34

risking is something that their partner

7:36

needs. especially I think if

7:38

the partner maybe is female

7:40

and doesn't have as much

7:43

initiating desire, but more responsive

7:45

desire to be re in couraged.

7:47

No,

7:47

this is good. And afterwards, we

7:50

feel so good. We feel so connected.

7:52

This

7:52

part of you that has always risked

7:55

and and

7:56

helped us is a good thing. And even right

7:58

now, even if I didn't want it,

7:59

it's a good thing. You

8:01

know, I I think, yeah, being seen

8:04

as suddenly,

8:05

it turns it on its head. Your initiation,

8:07

your pursuit is good. You

8:10

know, it's like making my head spin.

8:12

yeah, my my categories are

8:14

getting clearer. I'm sorry. My tactical

8:16

brain's always trying to understand things

8:18

and sometimes the

8:21

time is not right, but I'm kinda

8:23

looking at the needs changing in

8:25

no sex situations, struggling

8:28

sex situations, and good

8:30

sex situations. Right? So -- Okay. --

8:32

when we're not having sex, I'm

8:34

really gonna need you to give me permission for the

8:36

frustration of that. Mhmm. if

8:38

we're having sex, but we're it's

8:40

challenging. I don't feel like you're wanting to

8:42

do it for me. I mean, for

8:44

yourself, you're doing it for me. If it

8:46

ties that rejection place. And I'm hopefully, we

8:48

could role play this after break. I'd

8:50

love to know, like, how to put words to

8:52

how you you could help me with that

8:54

rejection. Yeah. And then

8:56

there's the good sex. When we're in

8:58

good sex, like, how do

9:00

we celebrate and let me know?

9:02

Like, Tim, you just rock my world. I mean,

9:04

thank you for that. You will be like

9:06

bring it.

9:07

Like, that that ditches total affirmation

9:10

that soothes that rejection place.

9:13

I know it. That's a that would be a

9:15

good word. Yeah, dude. You rock my

9:17

world. Absolutely. That's a

9:19

good one. Alright. You think we're gonna have

9:21

sex that I am, damn, I'm so lucky.

9:23

I'm with you that. I mean,

9:25

how could that feel pretty awesome?

9:27

Exactly. So

9:28

though you know, just

9:31

again, just zoom in out that

9:33

the beauty of stage two

9:35

is, it's the creation of that positive

9:37

cycle. this couple has done this work to

9:39

understand the good reasons the

9:41

pursuit is critical and the withdrawal goes

9:43

away and how they both lose when that

9:45

happens. and they're in

9:47

agreement. And they start to say, alright, let's

9:49

blame this psycho instead of each other.

9:51

Stage two is trying to get both of

9:53

them to have a different move. to

9:55

withdraw instead of going away, they're

9:57

now engaging in going forward. That's their

9:59

new move. To pursue instead of

10:01

being critical, they're coming forward

10:03

and asking for help in

10:05

these more vulnerable places where they miss

10:07

each other. Right? And is that

10:09

asking for help in what you need that

10:12

restructures the relationship as

10:14

secure. It's what makes the difference

10:16

between the best couples and the worst

10:18

couples on this planet. You have an

10:20

ability to repair when you're

10:22

able to name kind of what's

10:24

happening inside you emotionally and ask for

10:26

help with it and receive that help from

10:28

your partner. You're saying

10:29

so many good things. I am really glad

10:31

that I am gonna be able to listen to this episode

10:33

again.

10:33

A lot of good

10:36

things there. Thank you for that and and

10:38

why

10:39

I love these podcasts is both of us

10:41

become clear and it helps us help

10:43

couples and to help therapists you

10:46

know this. In trying to keep it simple,

10:48

sometimes we have so many words, it becomes

10:50

complicated, and we lose our focus, and

10:52

we become confused. Right? But

10:54

just recognizing the ultimate

10:57

goal is to have

10:59

both partners experience success

11:01

with these unmet needs underneath. Mhmm.

11:04

Like, these places of failure and rejection,

11:07

they need something. Think

11:09

about how healthy a relationship becomes

11:11

when you could ask for what you need there

11:13

and you can get it.

11:14

Like, that couple can repair. I

11:17

think one of the needs that

11:19

helped me was like when

11:21

the supply was there, like when

11:23

I was very confident that

11:25

my partner would have sex with me.

11:27

That sense of there's no

11:30

longer scarcity. There's still

11:32

those three stages, but sexually

11:34

being able to depend on my

11:37

partner that they're going to be a partner with me in

11:39

this. That made all the

11:41

difference in the world. Yeah.

11:42

You get one number threes. And

11:45

we hear a little bit more resilience with

11:47

those one and two's. Exactly. Exactly.

11:50

So I think what we've said as

11:52

therapists that stage two has

11:54

to include

11:56

action from the

11:57

withdrawing partner. They they have

11:59

to be more

11:59

engaged sexually as well

12:02

as being

12:02

able to meet their pursuing

12:05

partner's emotional needs

12:07

in rejection. Yeah,

12:09

both partners what makes it a

12:11

positive cycle, is they're asking

12:13

for help, is met by a

12:15

response and engagement from the partner. Mhmm.

12:17

Right? And in that in that exchange,

12:20

you have a corrective emotional

12:22

experience. Right. You have a bonding

12:24

event. You have that change

12:26

event that is instead of going

12:28

away, they're discovering connection

12:30

in places they normally experience

12:32

isolation. And that change of

12:34

experience connection recoats it

12:36

in a brain, and it really creates

12:38

a different relationship. You're no

12:40

longer the same relationship when you're not

12:42

alone in these places like you chronically are

12:44

in a negative cycle. Mhmm. We can't

12:46

emphasize enough why. It's not

12:48

chance that, you know, this

12:50

model has the results that it does. couples

12:52

that experience these breakthroughs in

12:55

stage two are different couple. I

12:57

mean, there's so much more resilient. They

12:59

carry this this this moment into the

13:01

future makes the world a much safer

13:03

place. Yeah. You're less alone. And you

13:05

know in the worst moments, you can turn to your

13:07

partner for help. They got you back. I

13:09

mean, that's what we all deserve.

13:11

Exactly. Well,

13:13

let's come back and let's let's

13:16

see what it looks like in action. Okay?

13:23

Listen y'all. It's really important that

13:25

both partners reach

13:25

orgasm if you can. And

13:28

sometimes, you know, you don't have the

13:30

time to really put all the energy

13:32

and the work into it, and women do

13:34

take about forty five minutes to reach

13:36

orgasm. vibrators from

13:38

dame products dot com,

13:40

the EVA and the air

13:42

are two products that I highly

13:44

recommend. Eva. It's the first

13:46

hands free vibrator for couples.

13:48

And it's like this little toy that stays in

13:50

place between the two of you when you're

13:52

having sexual

13:52

intercourse. It's easy peasy.

13:55

and it's fun because it

13:57

buzzes and it can stimulate her

13:59

clearest, so both of

13:59

you can have orgasms and

14:02

air mimics oral sex. It

14:04

creates kind of this thrilling pulse on

14:06

your clearest, and I think really

14:08

this might be something to play with and

14:10

to enjoy. There's five

14:12

intensities, there's five vibration

14:14

patterns.

14:14

Please go to dame products dot

14:17

com. Check this out. They have some really

14:19

cool stuff. go to dame products

14:21

dot com and enter the

14:23

code for play today. For

14:25

fifteen percent off, site

14:26

wide, that's code for play. to

14:29

take fifteen percent off your first order

14:31

at dame products dot com.

14:33

Oh

14:33

my god. Yes dot com is a

14:35

place to discover more pleasure

14:38

for women. They have new research

14:40

with over twenty thousand women.

14:42

Age is eighteen to ninety five.

14:44

Thank God, Raul, being sexual

14:46

for a long time. And the

14:48

findings are really the largest ever

14:50

peer reviewed study and research

14:52

about women's pleasure. It's in one

14:54

place. I just encourage you Go and

14:56

explore and try these new techniques to

14:58

feel good. Tell your partner that one looks

15:00

good. That one doesn't. Don't try that one. Do

15:02

try this one. You you'll learn something, you'll

15:04

learn a language. Oh my God. Yes.

15:06

It's for women, their partners, and

15:08

couples together. The videos

15:10

aren't really engaged and

15:13

there's no judgment or shame. It's

15:15

just straight up information. Oh my god.

15:17

Yes. It's not this is a a cool

15:19

thing. It's not a subscription site.

15:22

you pay for access once

15:23

and you get to the content forever.

15:25

So this is really a

15:28

deal. This

15:28

one time payment also funds

15:30

their next waves of research, which they

15:32

keep going. Forplay listeners

15:34

get a discount at oh my god yes

15:36

dot com slash foreplay. I

15:38

think it's a super rich information dense

15:42

place to learn about technique. Oh

15:44

my god. Yes dot com. Try it

15:47

out.

15:50

Okay. So

15:51

I'm gonna be the sexual

15:53

pursuit, you're the sexual withdrawal, and

15:56

let's

15:58

pretend that, you know, I

15:59

was kind of ready for sex and I

16:02

made that very apparent. I'm dressed

16:04

in lingerie, And

16:05

last night, you completely

16:09

ignore that. Don't say anything like,

16:11

oh, you know, you look good, but

16:13

I'm in the mood, you don't say anything. You

16:15

just -- Mhmm. -- get into bed and

16:17

go to sleep. And

16:19

I'm I'm

16:20

feeling very rejected today.

16:22

Good. And

16:23

and kind of I would say, you

16:26

know, while I maybe

16:28

in my best place, I would wanna talk to

16:30

you about that. I think Now

16:32

I'm

16:32

so hurt. I don't

16:34

know how to repair this. I'm

16:36

really afraid we're back in the cycle. Yes.

16:39

And to all listeners that we're

16:42

not activating in these conversations.

16:44

So sometimes we might make it seem easier

16:46

than it is in real life. But we wanna

16:48

give you a target of what

16:50

it could look like. that couples real

16:52

couples have these conversations all the

16:54

time with practice. Right? But if they know

16:56

what they're working towards, they can get there. So this

16:58

is our attempt to just kinda start

17:00

that process. And I would just say to you,

17:02

George, I don't know that you know this, but we've

17:04

gotten a lot of listenership saying

17:06

that

17:06

they really appreciate our role plays

17:09

a lot that those are great

17:11

because it gives them language,

17:13

it gives them a model to talk about

17:15

explicitly sexual problems and

17:17

dilemmas that Nobody's

17:19

really doing that. So thank you for that

17:22

feedback. Let

17:22

me say again, your encouragement to

17:25

us goes a

17:25

long ways, and we appreciate your

17:28

letters and your reviews and and your

17:30

support. Your support. Yeah. Thank you very

17:32

much. To all patrons, thank you. Again,

17:34

that's what keeps this moving. This

17:36

is what keeps the energy going. And we're we're having more

17:38

fun when we role play because we're trying to find our

17:40

words too. And I think the more we find our

17:43

words the more we can spread a

17:45

message. And and again, the world really

17:47

needs

17:47

this. Yep.

17:49

Alright. Okay.

17:51

So so bring on the role play.

17:53

I'll try

17:54

to prepare myself for the for

17:57

what's coming my way, my my body's

17:59

racing

17:59

foot. There we where escalated? So Okay.

18:03

So,

18:03

honey,

18:04

I I wanna

18:06

talk about last night.

18:09

Mhmm.

18:11

Yeah. I'm glad you're bringing it up

18:14

because I know we could I

18:16

don't wanna avoid this conversation,

18:18

but you know, that's that's something that you do.

18:21

That's really helpful for us to kinda

18:23

not let things faster. So -- Yeah. -- I'm

18:25

gonna try not to get defensive and

18:27

just listen to what you're saying, and

18:29

I'm glad you're sharing it with me.

18:31

I I know.

18:32

And I know this conversation goes

18:35

sideways between us so much

18:37

and you know, this morning,

18:39

I'm just feeling I'm

18:42

I'm kinda feeling

18:43

her and rejected

18:45

and not kinda I'm feeling very

18:47

hurt and rejected. I last

18:49

night, you know, when I was waiting for

18:52

you, I was so excited about you

18:54

coming home And I

18:56

had the whole thing set up and

18:59

I I thought it was what you

19:01

liked and you know, when you got into

19:03

bed and didn't say anything about me being

19:05

dressed up and, you

19:07

know, made up and kind

19:08

of sitting there, happy and waiting,

19:11

I didn't first of

19:11

all, it was kinda confusing because

19:14

I thought that would work. And

19:16

then secondly, I was this morning,

19:18

I just I'm,

19:20

like, back in the hole just

19:23

I don't

19:23

know. I can't crawl out. I I

19:26

wanna talk about it, but I'm just

19:28

so hurt.

19:30

Mhmm.

19:31

the Well, I

19:33

am sorry, and I do wanna

19:35

know more about your hurts. I mean,

19:37

I was so exhausted. my

19:39

brain just can compartmentalize. And I kinda

19:41

knew you kinda lying in the mood, but I

19:43

was just, like, done and just, like, just

19:46

turned

19:46

it off. Mhmm. Right? Put it again.

19:49

And and I'm not really getting

19:51

the impact to you when I do that. I'm just

19:53

like, I don't got the energy.

19:55

Good night. but III get that that that's pretty

19:57

unfair to you. It leaves you in a really

19:59

tough spot that even

19:59

today, you know, you wake up and

20:02

it's with you. You know? So

20:04

I I wanna know more about it. And

20:06

I guess I

20:07

I do understand that that you

20:09

compartmentalize I

20:11

guess what I

20:12

need from you is it it would have been it

20:15

was okay. I

20:15

mean, I was absolutely all

20:18

set for sex. but

20:20

it was kind of disconnect from me

20:23

being in

20:23

that place and you not

20:26

saying anything. And I would have

20:28

I think what I need from you is just

20:31

what's going on in your brain.

20:33

Like, if you see that, you see me

20:35

dressed up

20:35

and ready for sex and you

20:37

you

20:37

know, you're exhausted just that

20:40

transition piece like, honey, you look

20:42

beautiful. I so

20:44

I'm just dead meat, you know. I mean, even

20:46

that would have It wouldn't

20:49

have been about me. You

20:51

know? I

20:52

I don't know if you can help

20:54

me in those moments by

20:56

talking to me it

20:58

it was kind of the silence and

21:01

the sense

21:02

of not

21:05

noticing Mhmm.

21:06

I wish I would have done that. I mean, I

21:09

just fell back into my old

21:11

move. I knew

21:11

if we'd talk about it, it would lead to a

21:13

kind of longer to discussion, which I really didn't wanna have.

21:16

But I know when I

21:16

when I avoid to kind

21:19

of protect

21:19

myself, I just I put the burden

21:21

on you and you carry that alone,

21:23

and that's not fair. That's not okay. So

21:26

I'm I'm I'm sorry. I really wish I woulda

21:28

just said, hey, babe, I'm just shot and

21:30

I can't wait to talk about this tomorrow.

21:32

Right? What's, you

21:33

know, right, just got lazy. Leave that

21:35

lingerie on for the morning, you know, anything

21:37

when it worked. Let me

21:40

take that lingerie off in the

21:42

morning. That would've worked,

21:44

Tony. No. But I I again,

21:46

I I do wanna know I

21:48

I know that could that would have stopped

21:50

to hurt. But when you do go to

21:52

this place and you feel rejected, again, I

21:54

I wanna know how to help you with

21:56

that. Yeah.

21:57

I I'm not sure

21:59

what helps.

22:00

I certainly

22:02

this morning, if you'd Had

22:04

a little more energy

22:05

and initiated the conversation.

22:08

Mhmm. That would have helped me even more.

22:10

Like, because it would have told me

22:12

you knew I was rejected. So

22:14

I would have loved that.

22:17

But now

22:17

that I've kind of

22:19

brought it up, I guess, I'm

22:22

not sure I you

22:24

know, it's

22:25

like inside there's this

22:28

sense of not

22:30

being

22:30

good enough for you. It really

22:32

hurts. It really feels bad.

22:34

It's like, you

22:36

know, kind of the way I

22:39

think that even in shining moments

22:41

in my childhood, you know, my parents were

22:43

so preoccupied, they couldn't they

22:45

didn't they couldn't even pause to

22:48

acknowledge that. And it's like, all

22:50

that hurt just

22:51

tumbles together.

22:53

Mhmm. And

22:54

and I feel it, like, wow,

22:57

I was I was

22:57

dressed up like, you know, I don't even like

22:59

makeup. I left it on. You

23:01

know? And it it's like,

23:04

I

23:04

I don't know. It was the

23:05

sense of not being seen that

23:08

hurt me, not

23:09

and then

23:11

then it just all

23:13

merged together from old

23:15

stuff where I felt rejected.

23:17

Wow. I

23:20

I don't I don't mean to, like, lay that

23:23

on you. It's not your fault that my

23:25

parents did that. I'm just trying to

23:27

tell you what it feels like on the inside.

23:29

It it was It

23:30

was kinda this big thing. I

23:33

wanna see these parts of you.

23:35

I wanna know how you make these

23:38

connections

23:38

and you know,

23:39

how me not seeing you in that moment has

23:41

a long history. And that

23:43

sends you

23:44

to some bad places and

23:46

that really makes me feel sad. I don't want you to be

23:48

in those places. I I don't want you to be alone

23:50

in those places.

23:54

feels

23:54

good.

23:55

Thank you. Thank you for saying that

23:57

you wanna know those things about me.

24:00

That

24:00

helps. and

24:02

I

24:02

could do a better job of seeing

24:05

you and

24:05

seeing, you know, the things that

24:07

you do for us that,

24:10

you know, sometimes I just get kinda lost and

24:12

preoccupied in my own world. You know?

24:14

And I'm really

24:14

hearing it in a different way right now that,

24:17

you know, my initiating is

24:20

a way of meeting that need

24:22

of being seen. Am

24:24

I initiating saying, hey, like,

24:26

I miss you. I I

24:29

just wanna be with you because you're

24:31

so important and, like, that's

24:33

that meets that need inside you. I I

24:35

had no idea that's that that

24:37

would do that. I guess maybe I'm not as deep.

24:39

I don't make those connection sometimes.

24:42

Howard Bauchner: I

24:42

think anything from

24:45

you just Even talking

24:46

with me today. Even

24:49

talking right now feels good

24:52

compared to our old pattern of

24:54

not being

24:54

able to talk about it and

24:56

me making up in my head that you didn't care.

24:58

I mean, I'm hearing words that it

25:00

sounds like you care about me and

25:03

I know it may

25:03

seem like that's obvious from your

25:06

perspective, but hearing it

25:08

said over and over again to me,

25:10

it does kind of chip away at that

25:12

feeling

25:12

of rejection that I have. So -- Mhmm.

25:14

-- thank

25:14

you for that. And thank

25:16

you. I feel clear on,

25:18

you

25:18

know, it's the root of the problem

25:21

is you're not seeing. That's kinda what

25:23

happens when you get rejected. I mean, I know

25:25

I can do something about that.

25:27

Like, I feel confident that I can do that.

25:29

Like, I can do a better job of seeing

25:31

you. So I promise I'm gonna try

25:33

to do that. Okay.

25:35

That feels good. I appreciate

25:38

your more targeted

25:41

commitment to me. I mean, I

25:43

I really That feels

25:44

good. Mhmm.

25:46

Thank you.

25:48

you We

25:49

are welcome. Okay.

25:52

Let's debrief this g.

25:54

I guess

25:55

as I entered that role play,

25:57

I could feel that woman's

26:00

rejection and And

26:02

I'm

26:02

Where did you feel out in your

26:04

body? Ugh. I felt

26:07

it in my, sort of, right

26:09

below my heart and above my

26:11

stomach to this

26:12

this kind of

26:14

almost like a pit. It's

26:16

the done. Again,

26:17

so important for our listeners to

26:19

give marker, body in, body out.

26:22

Right? Where do you feel a rejection? And when

26:24

you ask for help in that need and your

26:26

partner responds? Let's see if it

26:28

shifts that body. Mhmm. So how are how

26:30

are you doing here at the end? Did it shift on

26:32

you? Yeah. I think it

26:33

did. I think that I

26:36

felt a little more

26:38

cared about it's like it it kinda the

26:40

the pit shrunk. That's how I would describe

26:43

it. Like,

26:43

rather than her

26:45

feeling it as like

26:47

a baseball feeling almost. It

26:49

kinda went to an apple seed. I don't know how to

26:52

Okay. That's just how it felt on

26:54

the inside. Yeah.

26:54

I mean, I I felt my own

26:57

engagement increase as

26:58

I started to kind of not

27:00

need to defend myself, but to make

27:02

some of the connections that I never made that,

27:05

like, this is about not being

27:07

seen and this is old. Right?

27:08

This is I just triggered this but this

27:11

is a place you go to where you don't

27:13

feel kind of worthy of being seen. It's

27:15

such a horrible place, but that really

27:17

pulled me to wanna fight for you to get closer

27:19

to you, to see you, like,

27:22

that I felt my

27:24

own kind of power

27:26

growing in a session as I

27:28

started to stand as tender place that you go to.

27:30

And I thought, you

27:30

know, that that the sexual pursuit was

27:33

talking about needs

27:35

that were old, that get

27:38

triggered that

27:38

are replicated in the

27:40

sexual relationship. And I

27:42

felt like that could have

27:44

gone sideways in this couple

27:46

you know,

27:47

so many people --

27:48

Mhmm. -- feel hurt from childhood, and

27:50

it does get triggered especially in

27:53

sex, I think. it's just such a

27:55

primitive place of body,

27:58

romance, feelings, and love.

27:59

It's like when we were children,

28:01

being held and touched was so important.

28:04

And, you know, our parents

28:05

seen as all of that just is replicated.

28:08

And I know that many couples

28:10

say things like,

28:11

you know, well, I'm not your father. I'm not your

28:13

mother. I do see you, you know, it

28:14

just it could so easily trigger

28:17

defense, but I really felt

28:20

your compassion for me. That felt good.

28:22

Yeah. Let's zoom out and

28:23

keep it simple. Needs,

28:26

net, is the positive

28:27

cycle, solution to the negative

28:30

cycle. So again, Laurie's

28:31

need in this role play

28:33

was to be in places she's

28:36

never seen because I'm rolling away and

28:38

going to sleep. Mhmm. Or guess what? I'm

28:40

seeing it, and I'm

28:41

coming closer. Mhmm. And I'm telling

28:43

her that's not okay. I want to do

28:45

it differently.

28:46

And my revealing how it

28:49

all connected for me, did that make

28:51

you feel anything inside,

28:53

like

28:53

safer able to

28:55

come closer in

28:56

your role play?

28:58

Yeah. It's again, it pulled me

29:00

in. Your vulnerability pulled me in instead

29:02

of me making about myself. Uh-huh. It

29:04

could allow me to keep my focus on

29:07

your needs, which is what never

29:09

really happens in on negative side.

29:11

So true. So true. I

29:13

think the the pursueer can trigger their

29:15

partner, and then their great

29:17

need is it's like, well,

29:19

you know, is

29:21

met with defense or something. And,

29:23

yeah,

29:23

this this time it was met with

29:26

responsiveness. So I think

29:27

that was that was a neat conversation.

29:30

homework

29:30

assignment, let's go people, get

29:32

out there, start working yourself towards

29:35

these conversations because it's

29:37

a different world. when your

29:39

product could show up for you in these moments.

29:41

Different world in stage two.

29:43

Thanks

29:43

for listening. Keep

29:44

it y'all. We'd

29:46

just love to invite you to our great

29:48

sex, great love, couples retreat

29:50

on Friday, October

29:53

twenty eight, ten to five PM at

29:55

eastern time, George and I are

29:57

really going to help you

29:59

apply what you

29:59

learn in the podcast to

30:01

your relationship. So if your marriage or

30:03

partnership is functional, but it's not

30:05

that exciting or you wanna deepen that

30:08

connection and

30:09

really improve your intimacy or,

30:12

you know, make sex something that isn't

30:14

just a check off your list and try to

30:16

bring the sizzle back,

30:17

please join us we are gonna

30:19

spend a whole day enhancing your

30:21

relationship and intimacy, dealing

30:23

with the cycle,

30:25

making it safe for you to talk

30:27

about desire, talk about the actual

30:29

sex acts that you're doing. Also,

30:32

express what's going on in your mind,

30:34

body, and heart, and your spirit

30:36

to find

30:36

deeper sexual connection with each

30:39

other. That's October twenty

30:41

eighth. You

30:41

can find it on foreplay

30:43

sex therapy dot com under

30:45

our resources to sign up

30:48

now.

30:48

Okay. So tell us about

30:51

your cutting edge training that you're doing on success and

30:53

vulnerability? Laura,

30:54

we just keep pushing it. Coming up

30:56

with a new module on the

30:58

playbook of a pursuing playbook

31:00

of a whichever really practical

31:03

moment by moment moves or

31:05

what a therapist can use. You know,

31:07

we're so focused on

31:09

what's happening in session enough there's talk about theories

31:12

and these global things. We I think

31:14

most therapists are looking for, what do I do

31:16

in this moment? Give

31:18

me a tool, George. So that's what we're trying to

31:20

do. That's awesome. I

31:21

am so glad you guys are doing this work.

31:23

I think it helps us be organized

31:25

to see you do it, you do demos,

31:27

you do explanations,

31:30

teaching, it really is interactive,

31:32

and I think that so many

31:34

trainings that we sit through, don't give us an opportunity for

31:36

that. So what you're doing

31:37

is really important. No. We try to

31:40

emphasize the teach it, show it, do

31:42

it, model of learning. You

31:44

need to have some ideas so we try to teach

31:46

those. And then we try to show what it looks like

31:48

implementing those ideas. But most

31:50

importantly, you now gotta practice it. That's how

31:52

they become yours. and that's what we wanna

31:54

solicit us and watches to

31:56

do and become their own moves. Find

31:58

George and his teaching at success and

31:59

vulnerability dot com.

32:02

Calling your questions to the four

32:04

play question voice mail, dial 833

32:07

my foreplay. That's 833

32:09

my The number four, play. And

32:11

we'll use the questions for our mailbag episodes.

32:13

All content is for entertainment

32:15

purposes only and should not be considered as

32:17

a substitute for therapy by licensed clinician

32:19

or his medical from a doctor. This podcast is

32:22

copyrighted by four play media.