0:00

Ignite your passion for discovery at the

0:02

Kosai Science Festival May 1st through the

0:04

4th. Experience three days packed with interactive

0:07

community events featuring exhibits, live demos, and

0:09

engaging conversations with experts in science, technology,

0:11

engineering, arts, and math. And on Saturday,

0:14

May 4th, join us for the free

0:16

Big Science Celebration featuring over 100 exhibitors,

0:19

all with interactive activities to share.

0:21

And of course, there will be

0:23

larger-than-life science demonstrations, live music, and

0:25

more from 11 a.m. until 5

0:27

p.m., just outside of Kosai. Visit

0:29

kosaisiphos.org to learn more. The following

0:31

content is not suitable for children. Today,

0:34

we're talking about some of the

0:36

roadblocks, the tough spots to making

0:38

progress in the school of love.

0:41

Hmm, these are the tough ones, the

0:43

tough problems. We're going to talk

0:45

about four things that really do

0:47

stop progress or stop people from

0:49

feeling safe and feeling

0:51

like they could really strengthen

0:54

that emotional bond because these things

0:56

can rob a relationship of its

0:58

safety. Absolutely. Welcome

1:03

to 4th Place Sex Therapy. I'm Dr.

1:05

Lori Watson, your sex therapist. And

1:08

I'm George Fowler, your couples therapist. We

1:10

are here to talk about sex. Our

1:12

mission is to help couples talk

1:14

about sex in ways that incorporate

1:17

their body, their mind, and their

1:19

hearts. And we have a little bit of

1:21

fun doing it, right, G? Listen, and

1:23

let's change some relationships. So,

1:26

George, what are these things? Tell us some

1:28

of the bad scenarios that people are really

1:30

dealing with and are up against. We

1:33

talk about in therapy the three

1:35

A's. If there's some kind of

1:37

abuse happening, some kind

1:39

of addiction happening, or there's

1:41

an affair going on, these things are

1:43

certainly going to get in a way

1:45

of safety. And the fourth one is

1:47

if somebody's just not willing to risk

1:49

anymore, they're not willing to engage or

1:51

to make effort, it's hard to make

1:54

progress. So, let's break these down in

1:56

a little bit more detail. Let's start

1:58

off with the abuse. If

2:01

somebody, you know, you're in

2:03

a relationship where somebody's emotionally

2:05

or physically or sexually abusive,

2:08

it's hard to trust. I

2:10

mean, abuse robs trust, right? Somebody's using

2:13

power to kind of get what they

2:15

want at the costs and they're not

2:17

willing to look at the

2:21

impact of what their actions are doing to that

2:23

partner. The worst thing to me isn't the abuse,

2:26

it's after the abuse where you just don't

2:28

feel safe. Yeah, I mean, the three

2:30

A's, abuse, addiction, and

2:32

affairs, these are relationship

2:35

blockers and stoppers. And like you

2:37

said, sometimes people have given up,

2:40

you know, and they have really

2:43

said, you know, for them

2:45

the relationship has died. We sometimes think

2:47

about burnt out pursuers, but there's with drawers

2:49

too who are tapping out. And

2:52

those kinds of places, it's really

2:54

difficult to take all

2:56

these risks that we've been talking about

2:58

in the School of Love to share

3:00

with each other that, you know, that's

3:02

not even gonna happen, you

3:05

know, because you gotta take care of these things

3:07

first. So abuse, like you said, is, you know,

3:09

physical or sexual or emotional, and

3:12

people are using their power over

3:14

somebody else. And when that

3:16

happens, trust is destroyed

3:18

and it's not safe. And

3:21

so first thing, you gotta be safe. You

3:24

need safety. That's a prerequisite. And listen,

3:26

people make mistakes and lose their cool.

3:28

And if they're willing to take ownership

3:30

for that, then this week can do

3:32

beautiful work. It's just that people

3:34

are not willing to take ownership. It's like,

3:37

I'm gonna hit my wife and I'm gonna

3:39

say, well, actually it's her problem because she

3:41

was disrespectful and I'm not gonna look at

3:43

the impact of what I'm doing. Then there's

3:46

not really a lot of safety to wanna

3:48

share and to have kind of conversations. So

3:51

really that ability to take ownership. Not a

3:53

lot of safety, for sure. It's

3:56

tough. You know, and a lot of

3:58

us grow up in families where we've been. and

4:00

we see the intergenerational kind of passing on

4:03

to this thing that just continues to happen

4:05

and somebody's got to have the

4:07

courage to stop these cycles of violence,

4:10

right and Be willing

4:12

to say like if

4:14

I'm gonna encourage you to take a risk and

4:16

you that risk might be used against you later

4:19

It's really hard for your body to want to

4:21

take the risk You know, you have to have

4:23

that safety net that says, you know, we might

4:25

hear uncomfortable things But that's not going to be

4:28

used against me later and you need both people

4:30

to buy into that process To

4:32

make the progress that was looking about Right.

4:35

And so you're talking really about now emotional

4:37

safety, too You know, we

4:39

can't have somebody who's going to manipulate

4:42

us or use against us our vulnerability

4:44

That's that is abusive and

4:47

so it's you know things that people get

4:49

into all kinds of things name calling and

4:52

you know threats and I Mean

4:55

there's a lot of ways to be emotionally

4:57

abusive But we kind of have some boundaries

4:59

around that in therapy, you know, we put

5:01

a lot of boundaries around this And

5:04

sexual abuse talk about that like how how in

5:07

a marriage Can there be sexual

5:09

abuse if people don't think there can be some

5:11

people don't think there can be I of course

5:13

do but yeah Listen, we're big

5:15

fans when you say no you have a right

5:18

to know it's your body, right? You

5:20

know somebody just can't override what

5:22

your rights are as a person

5:24

and Again,

5:27

none of us are perfect and all of us make mistakes

5:30

I'm not looking for perfection to do therapy all

5:32

I'm looking for is for people if they hear

5:34

from their part that you did something That hurt

5:36

me they take ownership and they want

5:38

to work on changing that if they're

5:40

not motivated to change that if they feel

5:42

Entitled to keep doing this behavior that doesn't

5:44

feel safe. This is going to come to

5:47

a halt and Yeah,

5:50

So like you said in therapy We Have

5:52

these boundaries put these rules in place to

5:55

create safety and if couples are not following

5:57

them Then We're gonna not work with them.

5:59

So. The you All Listen interview Find

6:01

yourself in a relationship with somebody. This is

6:03

tough Families we want to normalize. You're not

6:06

crazy as it's hard to want to take

6:08

risks. If if those risk gonna be used

6:10

against you than this year you're gonna. You're

6:12

gonna need some help here. Yeah,

6:15

I'm late hot anyway. so helpful

6:17

about many theories. Very difficult situations,

6:19

but that doesn't mean that we

6:21

think. You should be putting up with

6:23

us. Things are staying yourself in a

6:26

you need to know sometimes especially I

6:28

think list as Covenants you need to

6:30

get separate said. That use your children

6:32

are physically sais and same with sexual

6:34

abuse. You know if your partner is

6:36

taking advantage of the actually with force.

6:39

That as craziness. In.

6:43

An is be a lot of gas lighting

6:45

here Natalie Are you being abused But you're

6:47

gonna get played for the abuses front of

6:49

your false only when you find yourself and

6:52

that that cycle of violence. I mean I

6:54

don't get you do need a that those

6:56

bands is the perfect words you deserve better

6:58

we all deserve you know our own personal

7:01

integrity to be on and of unless that

7:03

and asked absolutely and then we're gonna need

7:05

some some will have to take some steps

7:08

or for we can do the rest of

7:10

his work that we're talking about. In the

7:12

School of Love. Yeah. Said

7:14

get yourself safe. For startled to sell

7:17

safe affairs is another one. You

7:19

know affairs as if you're turning

7:21

towards someone outside the relationship. For

7:25

support for prefer it for reassurance.

7:27

Realize that First Sachs for whatever

7:29

you're turning towards, you know that

7:31

certainly gonna be com an obstacle

7:33

between working on each other and

7:36

and shrink in the distance. that's

7:38

that's happening. So you know if

7:40

you're. Pulled. Off an affair and

7:42

we work with us all the time. Have

7:44

the couple's I work with a recovering some

7:47

cutters, air and and this school I am

7:49

or to that right helping people and the

7:51

opportunity to recover after affairs to learn to

7:53

know yourself and each other way you've never

7:55

had. I can't say how many couples feel

7:58

you know or after was the world. They

8:00

feel like they're stronger than it ever were

8:02

before The author. Writes. An average

8:04

daily work with idol is fine but if somebody

8:06

is not willing to call off the if there.

8:09

If. They continue to to smell not

8:11

really sure wanna do both and

8:13

like the.really is gonna start their

8:15

abilities take any risks. Yeah,

8:18

I think one of the siege difficulties

8:20

and affairs. Or that the

8:22

person that you are just seen. Ah,

8:24

sauce and lies about it. You.

8:26

Know so what When there's that discovery

8:29

process they may be don't tell the

8:31

whole story or they don't tell it

8:33

at all and the other person discover

8:35

their and that's a psych as you

8:37

know that that. Line.

8:39

And affairs off and go together.

8:41

so it's it's. really a tough

8:44

thing because. You expect your attachment.

8:46

figure this person you depend on

8:48

with your heart. And your soul

8:50

in your body. you know to tell you the

8:52

to them when they're saying something else and then

8:55

you figure it out. It's just it's just you

8:57

know it's like an earthquake. Like an earthquake to.

8:59

kind of managed to go through that people tell

9:01

me all the time. Laurie, I got lost on

9:03

the way to the grocery store. Oh my God.

9:06

It was like an earthquake. You can't even think

9:08

straight when the person that you love and blinds.

9:10

You in your whole world as turn

9:12

upside down so we get that reference

9:14

a good image it's it doesn't just

9:16

and rival the trust in our relationship

9:18

with Shot as your worldview with like

9:20

things you assumed to be true everything

9:22

unravels like your whole twenty five years

9:25

of marriage done is a lie you

9:27

know having your children and how you

9:29

so raise them the all of a

9:31

sudden no longer the same way I

9:33

meets your future or it's just it's

9:35

a ripple effect on both and affairs

9:37

pretty profound and that's why will want

9:39

the affair. Partner. There's. Always

9:41

two things. Were looking for a therapist

9:44

that you know that one day take

9:46

responsibility for a betrayal. And. There,

9:48

you know, they're taken ownership and they're

9:50

doing with a liter to repair trust

9:52

and that super important that's where we.

9:55

With. a certain part which can be a

9:57

bitch our job is is getting both partners

9:59

to see that the state of

10:01

their relationship and the distance

10:04

and the negative cycle always makes

10:06

one partner more susceptible to something

10:08

like this happening. You can't

10:10

get so focused on the affair that you don't

10:12

see the bigger picture that says you

10:15

got to strengthen your relationship. We're

10:17

going to try to do that through repairing the

10:19

affair but there's more than just the affair here

10:21

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10:54

I mean, when the affair is

10:56

first discovered, of course, the person who

10:58

is injured is kind of

11:02

the first patient. They're

11:04

bleeding out and so we got to help them. But

11:08

as we process affairs, we do find

11:10

out oftentimes the fabric of the relationship

11:12

has been damaged in many ways. And

11:14

yeah, this person acted out but affairs

11:18

don't happen in a vacuum. They

11:20

happen in relationships that sometimes

11:23

there are problems and people make decisions

11:25

that they just kind of feel like

11:27

this is the only thing I've got.

11:31

I was sitting with a client and

11:34

he had had an affair and as we talked

11:36

about it, she said, I

11:39

asked about how their life had been and

11:41

how their intimate connection had been over time

11:43

and it turned out they had not had

11:45

sex in five years. I'm

11:48

not excusing the acting

11:51

out. I mean, that should have been done

11:53

with integrity and honesty and the marriage then.

11:55

If you're out, tap out. But

11:58

on the other hand, there was a part that. And he was saying,

12:00

look, I've said it a

12:02

million times. I need to be sexual. I

12:04

am a sexual creature. And

12:08

she refused to engage with me. And I didn't

12:10

know any other way. And this woman paid me

12:12

attention. And I succumbed.

12:15

And I'm not saying that that's right.

12:17

But it is, I mean,

12:20

I think both parties have to kind

12:22

of take responsibility for what was happening

12:24

between us when this vulnerability came.

12:26

George, you and I know, and we

12:29

teach this, and we preach this, that

12:32

the sexual connection has to be

12:34

secure. And if not, people are

12:36

at risk for sort of

12:39

infidelity and the attention of others. That

12:42

is a truth. And again, we're

12:44

just highlighting that point, that you break

12:46

in your vows. We're not giving it

12:48

permission. You've got to take ownership for

12:51

the betrayal. And it is a betrayal

12:53

that devastates that partner's world.

12:55

And we know how trust

12:58

is a process of you

13:00

earn over time. It's not a choice to

13:02

just say, I'm going to start trusting you

13:04

again. And I do know with 100-degree certainty

13:06

that the person who is betrayed,

13:08

when they look in their partner's

13:10

eyes and they see reflected back

13:13

their pain, they can see their part

13:15

of feeling their pain. Like their body

13:18

starts to trust again. So there's a

13:20

really clear map on how to get

13:22

people into a much safer place. But

13:24

both people have to do their work.

13:27

And all we're making space for is

13:29

this affair doesn't happen in a vacuum.

13:31

That there is work, there's dynamics between

13:33

the two partners that also need to

13:35

kind of shine some light into. Because

13:38

we need to make progress for both

13:40

people to feel safe. Both people always

13:42

create a negative cycle. And both

13:44

people are needed to change that into

13:46

a positive cycle. So we're going to

13:48

do the repair, healing, affair

13:51

work. And we're going

13:53

to do that in the context of

13:55

also working with the couples dynamics. And

13:57

the combination of those two gives couples.

14:00

is a really good map on how to get

14:02

back into a place of safety. I

14:04

think if a couple has had

14:06

an affair, I really think

14:09

they need therapy. So

14:12

get yourself to an EFT therapist.

14:14

That's isest.com. i-c-e-e-f-t.com.

14:19

There's a database there. Find a therapist.

14:21

And they're all over the world. But

14:25

you can search by state, by city,

14:28

and you can find an experience therapist

14:30

who understands attachment repair, because an affair

14:33

tears the fabric of our very attachment

14:35

to our partner. All

14:37

right. Let's come back. Pick this

14:39

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14:44

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14:46

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14:48

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14:50

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14:53

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14:59

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18:04

All right, so continue with affairs,

18:07

that when both people

18:09

are taking ownership and addressing their dynamics,

18:12

and we have so much success, the

18:14

school of love is going to help

18:16

you to strengthen that emotional and sexual

18:18

cycle, right? But if the

18:20

partner who is in the affair is

18:23

not willing to accept responsibility, is blaming

18:25

you for all the problems, is not

18:27

calling off the affair, you know, then

18:30

this is a competing attack. Bad

18:32

sign. Going somewhere else. There isn't

18:34

a safety you're going to need for these

18:36

vulnerable conversations to really bear your soul and

18:38

hand over your heart. You know, it's not

18:41

going to happen with somebody who's

18:43

not really sure they want to be in it

18:45

with you or they're going somewhere else. So you

18:47

know, this is the time for some of these

18:49

conversations. You know, one

18:51

of the things that I think is important

18:53

in a fair recovery is the

18:55

sense of accountability. Like the person who

18:57

cheated should say, here's my phone,

18:59

here are all my passwords, here's where I'm

19:01

going, this is my schedule, this is where

19:03

I'm going to be, you can come down

19:05

and see me at the office anytime you

19:08

want. Like they really open up. And

19:10

I think that the person who was

19:12

injured, on the other hand, you know, that

19:14

they become vigilant, they want to check the

19:16

phone, they want to do all this. The

19:19

best case scenario when trust starts

19:22

to be renewed is the person

19:24

who stepped out, opens up,

19:27

and the person who was left and

19:30

betrayed doesn't feel the need anymore to

19:32

be vigilant and keep checking. You

19:34

know, it's like both of

19:37

those things is the sense of trust

19:39

is being restored. Yeah,

19:41

let's face it. I mean, if you're the offender,

19:44

you want to just say, I'm sorry,

19:46

and can we move on with S,

19:48

right? Can we just turn to F? But

19:51

trust isn't earned that way. So, Laura is 100%

19:53

right. When you're

19:55

willing to face, you know, Your

19:58

partner's fears. I Think they're not. responsibilities, triggers.

20:00

I mean they say go. Maybe there was

20:02

a message or be checked the song. When.

20:05

You know feel control to threatened by that.

20:07

You say hey my father's you're scared I

20:09

want to build trust is is actually opportunity

20:12

up in a field bad. I'm going to

20:14

be reminded of of something I don't like

20:16

and how I hurt my partner. But trying

20:18

to avoid that ceiling means you're gonna destined

20:20

your partner the face of alone. When you

20:23

see the author tries, I want to see

20:25

that with you. You see how right he

20:27

started. Build that trust. Exactly.

20:30

Exactly. What? I just

20:32

want to add one other little scary,

20:34

but the are often inconvenience. I.

20:37

Mean a lot of times. The.

20:39

Offended does build a bond with

20:42

the affair partner. right? It,

20:44

even though you pull that off, there's

20:46

there's a lot to that, right? there

20:48

is. There's play in losing somebody a

20:50

minute. It's really powerful when two people

20:52

are caught in said with each other,

20:54

like they don't judge each other, like

20:56

they've accepted that. This is where life

20:58

has them. They, so they did. There's

21:01

there something. Strong that

21:03

develops and you know, research says

21:05

it's at least six months. You

21:07

know there's like a mourning period.

21:09

So you also gotta gotta give

21:11

the space for the city of

21:13

sender to kind of. Even though

21:15

you don't wanna hear that, that's

21:18

the reality. Like. Even though

21:20

they made a mistake and a calling.off they're

21:22

still and played. Should they say start alone?

21:24

I mean I just think there's a lot

21:26

of opportunities for both partners to show up

21:29

in ways that they've probably never done. With.

21:32

And and I know you're speaking the

21:34

truth that you're really asking a lot,

21:37

right? Because. That's. The worst

21:39

thing to think about is my partner

21:41

fond of on Salim lives. Others

21:43

have somebody else and now you want me to

21:45

comfort them as they mind that last, are you

21:47

freaking kidding? You know I mean that I think

21:50

whether or not saying you have to do that

21:52

on day one when I thing you have to

21:54

do that on day one we know that affair

21:56

recovery is a process and and also I think

21:58

you know an affair as a. Open Mean

22:00

hit. I. Mean all it

22:02

is. Ah, It's a

22:05

whole focus is on excitement

22:07

and bill been sexual connection

22:09

mean people put so much

22:11

time, energy and money into

22:14

an affair. I mean

22:16

there's there the whole body and soul as may

22:18

have been in one direction to this. Super.

22:21

Super high you know? and then coming

22:23

back into real life. It's like I

22:25

gotta come back into the middle road.

22:28

the grind. you know, like really? Now

22:30

my life without that can is. Super.

22:33

Hit the tart sorry I like

22:35

to say the affair partner and

22:37

he just kept the said your

22:40

time. But. Ninety percent of your

22:42

engagement when you got that. I.

22:45

Knew exactly what we're at home guess

22:47

ninety percent of the time but only

22:49

gets ten percent a year gauge rate.

22:51

so those are just not great numbers

22:53

and so yes that the timing has

22:55

to be right. but I always ask

22:57

when the time is right. To

23:00

the offended person whose parents. Who.

23:03

Don't wanna be there because they're hurt. But.

23:05

If you're not going to be, there was the

23:07

option. You. Get advice is person a deal

23:10

with their pain on the wrong. When.

23:12

They deal with their paid on the all.

23:14

That is exactly the environment that makes a

23:16

feels more like. When.

23:18

Couples learn how to show off each

23:20

other in a plane that is would

23:22

pass tests or relationship people be isolated

23:24

with their pain is what creates distance

23:27

in relationships. I know it's Lassana time

23:29

is not great. But. When

23:31

you could actually crawl over class and

23:33

love your partner places they don't love

23:35

themselves like that. creates a level of

23:37

security that takes your relationship to a

23:40

whole nother level. Say, I wonder what

23:42

episode Some Beyond Repairs are? We really

23:44

just want a cottage help. You recognize

23:46

that if you're in the midst of

23:48

one of these and you're struggling, you

23:50

know those school loved and really help

23:52

you. What is? Your partner's now willing

23:55

to own it and still continue to

23:57

see other person like this. This is

23:59

Matt. time for the school of

24:01

love. This is too much vulnerability if

24:04

you're just gonna you know gonna be

24:06

there's someone else in the picture that's

24:08

we're not working with so. Alright last

24:10

one addictions we're bonding

24:12

creatures sometimes our partner bonds elsewhere

24:15

right they turn towards a drug

24:17

or they turn towards you know

24:20

alcohol alcohol or something or pornography

24:22

like they're invested in gambling. When

24:24

they're feeling disconnected like this is

24:27

a way of kind of numbing

24:29

out and escaping and getting some

24:31

relief but they're going elsewhere again

24:33

another type of competing attachment a

24:35

lot of people with addictions it

24:38

feels like an affair. It

24:40

is it is an affair I

24:43

mean it's it's like you said it

24:46

they are consumed by something else you

24:48

know I think about addictions George from

24:50

an attachment perspective and an addiction really

24:53

to me is this hole

24:55

in the soul it's a person who

24:57

needs and is missing the connection you

24:59

know whether it's connection of the other

25:01

or a sense of goodness

25:04

that people get connection with God

25:06

I mean there's an emptiness inside

25:08

that then they're turning to something

25:10

else a substance or a process

25:13

addiction and they're trying

25:15

to fill this frantically that's

25:17

empty place and we

25:19

know that that the opposite of addiction

25:21

is really connection not

25:23

just stopping behavior that's why AA works

25:26

I don't think AA works because it's some

25:29

sort of magic it works because people are

25:31

connecting on a really deep level with other

25:33

people they're sharing their vulnerability

25:35

that it might be the first time

25:38

people who were addicted to alcohol have

25:40

ever heard other people share about their

25:42

heart you know I think

25:44

that's what the magic is in AA or

25:46

any of the Al-Anon and

25:49

all of that is people shared

25:51

a deep level and they find

25:53

connection finally you know it fills up

25:55

their soul in a new way that the addiction

25:57

was trying to do amen I

26:00

couldn't agree more. I mean, to

26:02

see addictions as a crisis of

26:04

connection, when you're massively disconnected, turning

26:06

towards something for a leaf makes

26:08

a lot of sense for a

26:10

short-term solution. But that short-term solution

26:13

just continues to drive more and

26:15

more disconnection and isolation. And

26:17

that's why I always loved that I was

26:19

saying, everybody focuses on the drinking and not

26:21

the thirst. Everybody wants to stop the behavior,

26:23

but doesn't understand that it's feeling something. Like,

26:26

you've got to fill that hole in a

26:28

healthier way if you want people to let

26:30

go of the addiction. And that's what AA does a

26:32

beautiful job with. But again,

26:35

in this model, if the person is willing

26:37

to seek help and is able to face

26:39

the pain of their disconnection, it's like, this

26:41

works great. The school of love is going

26:43

to take you to another level. But

26:46

if that addicted partner is not willing

26:48

to seek help, is saying,

26:50

I don't have a problem. You have

26:52

the problem. If they're refusing to engage,

26:54

then this is, again, what robs the

26:57

couple of safety. Because that

26:59

thirst, they don't want to lose the help

27:01

that the alcohol maybe is giving them to

27:03

loosen up and lower their inhibitions. And they

27:06

like how they feel. The

27:08

idea of living without it is too hard for them.

27:10

They just refuse to look at it and put it

27:12

all on you is the problem. And

27:14

now this is a competing attachment. Like, when you

27:16

want to get close, they turn and have a

27:18

second drink. And you want

27:21

to make love afterwards. And you're like this. It's

27:23

like you have a third partner in the bedroom

27:25

with you. And that's not OK. So

27:28

if my rule is one partner thinks it's

27:30

a problem, it is a problem. It needs

27:33

to be addressed. Yeah,

27:35

exactly. Exactly. And

27:37

let's speak for a minute about compulsive

27:40

sexuality and porn addiction and things

27:43

like that. Because I think sometimes

27:45

that does become a process

27:47

addiction. And I have people who come

27:50

in and say, my partner's addicted

27:52

to porn. And it's really

27:54

only because they thought about wanting to use

27:57

porn. They're actually not even using it.

28:00

are an addict. So I mean there's degrees

28:02

here but I think... Yeah so we're not talking

28:07

about that. We're talking about probably a person

28:09

who is who pornography

28:11

is interfering with their relationships and

28:13

with their work. You

28:15

know like somehow or another the desire

28:17

to look at porn they're wasting lots

28:20

and lots of time with it could

28:22

be used productively or maybe it is

28:25

really interfering with their relationship. They

28:27

would rather fantasize and you know

28:29

masturbate to an image then

28:31

they would have sex with their partner

28:33

or you know even

28:35

be engaged with their partner. Yeah

28:38

I'm always surprised not

28:40

so I shouldn't be after all this time but

28:42

you know with couples if a man is masturbating

28:44

to a pornography and I say let's do an

28:46

experiment just can you try not to do it

28:48

for two weeks or a month and see what

28:50

happens almost universally their sex

28:53

drive for that partner increases

28:55

when they're not masturbating to pornography.

28:58

So it is you can see the competing

29:00

attachment it's easy there's no pressure you

29:02

don't have to worry about things not working you

29:04

can get the stimulation level you want you can

29:06

keep changing the imagery I mean we can see like like a

29:09

drug it gives you an

29:11

immediate payoff right so

29:13

the I think the healthy you want a

29:15

good feeling but the the impact of that

29:18

I think so often people are missing with

29:20

addiction. Exactly and I you

29:23

know this is because I think we

29:25

specialize in sexuality I think

29:27

that we often you know

29:30

see this in our work and I

29:33

have again a lot of hope that people

29:35

can fill up like maybe they I

29:37

don't think it's always they're using porn

29:39

because their partner didn't have want to

29:41

have sex with them sometimes they're using

29:43

porn to really fill that empty place

29:45

inside has nothing to do with their

29:47

partner's sexual availability so you

29:50

know but we think you can get help. not

30:00

willing to risk, not willing to

30:03

try. I mean, you

30:05

can't bridge distance if you're not gonna

30:07

try something new. Sometimes people

30:09

are so set in their ways and

30:11

so set in their defenses that they

30:13

just don't need to risk anymore. Like,

30:15

it's then not going to be safe

30:17

to take these risks, to make the

30:19

progress that you need to. Yeah,

30:22

you know, like we talked about

30:24

earlier, there's also the situation where

30:26

people, both people won't risk, right?

30:29

When the lights aren't on anymore for

30:31

either one of them and they are tapped

30:33

out. And that situation sometimes,

30:35

you know, we can't restart. We

30:38

have a lot of hope for helping you,

30:40

but you know, like that new

30:42

Billy Joel song, right? But turn the lights back

30:44

on. I think that there is

30:46

hope for that. And we have hope for

30:49

all of these issues for healing, but if

30:51

you're with a partner who will

30:53

not engage with you, who is using a

30:56

substance or having an affair

30:59

or abusive in some way

31:02

that this is untenable, we're not asking

31:04

you to continue to take risks. You know,

31:06

you need to deal with those things first. But

31:08

again, get yourself to a therapist, find

31:11

out if there is anything left, any hope, and

31:13

that you can maybe turn the lights back on,

31:15

so. Yeah, sometimes negative cycles

31:17

win. And sometimes the

31:19

distance gets too great. The research is really

31:21

clear that eventually it's gonna reach the point

31:24

of no return where one partner just isn't

31:26

willing to risk anymore. And most people we

31:28

work with are getting close to that, but

31:30

there's still something left. And

31:32

then we tap into that and great

31:35

things could happen. But if you find

31:37

yourself in a relationship where somebody's not

31:39

willing to risk, then yes,

31:41

this is gonna block this whole process. And you

31:43

really need to get the help and the support

31:45

you need to, because at the

31:47

end of the day, we're big proponents that

31:49

all of us deserve to feel safe and

31:51

to feel connected and to be wanted. And

31:54

to be in a relationship where that's not

31:56

happening, I think that's some of the loneliest

31:58

places on this planet. it.

32:01

So you find yourself there, you're in a tough

32:03

spot, get the help you need. Thanks

32:07

y'all for listening. Keep grinding

32:09

away baby. Okay so tell

32:11

us about your cutting-edge

32:13

training that you're doing on success and

32:16

vulnerability. Lori we just keep pushing

32:18

it, coming up with a new

32:20

module on the playbook of a

32:22

pursuer playbook of a witcher, a

32:24

really practical moment by moment moves

32:26

or what a therapist can use.

32:29

We're so focused on what's happening in

32:31

session. Enough of this talk about theories

32:33

and these global things. I think most

32:35

therapists are looking for what do I

32:37

do in this moment. Give me a

32:39

tool George so that's what we're trying

32:41

to do. That's awesome. I am so

32:43

glad you guys are doing this work.

32:45

I think it helps us be organized

32:48

to see you do it. You do

32:50

demos, you do explanations, teaching. It really

32:52

is interactive and I think that so

32:54

many trainings that we sit through don't

32:57

give us an opportunity for that. So

32:59

what you're doing is really important.

33:01

No we try to emphasize the teach

33:03

it, show it, do it model of

33:05

learning. You need to have some

33:07

ideas so we try to teach those and then

33:09

we try to show what it looks like implementing

33:11

those ideas. But most importantly you now got to

33:14

practice it. That's how they become yours and that's

33:16

what we want our listeners and watchers to do

33:18

is become their own moves. Find

33:20

George and his teaching at

33:23

successandvulnerability.com. Call

33:25

in your questions to the Foreplay

33:28

question voicemail style 833-MY-4PLAY. That's 833-MY-4-PLAY

33:33

and we'll use the questions for our mailbag

33:35

episodes. All content is for

33:37

entertainment purposes only and should not be considered as

33:40

a substitute for therapy by a licensed clinician or

33:42

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