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2:00

Michael Adams in the Blue Mountains of

2:02

New South Wales on land traditionally owned

2:04

by the Darug and Gundungurra people. I

2:07

pay my respect to Aboriginal elders past

2:09

and present. Every

2:11

episode of Forgotten Australia is the

2:13

result of weeks or even months

2:16

of research, writing, recording and production.

2:18

So until mid-May I'm working on

2:20

new episodes. For your listening pleasure

2:22

and in line with this seasons

2:24

theme of Murders that Shocked Australia,

2:26

I'm re-releasing two of my favourite

2:28

three-parters dealing with very bad men

2:30

who left trails of death and

2:32

destruction in their wakes. If

2:34

you're an Apple or Patreon supporter

2:37

you'll have full, immediate and ad-free

2:39

access to all instalments. This

2:41

episode includes graphic descriptions of violence

2:43

and references to mental illness and

2:45

to suicide. Listener discretion is advised.

2:51

It's around mid-day Sunday the 5th of April

2:53

1936 and

2:55

in the Victoria Coffee Palace on Little

2:57

Column Street in Melbourne receptionist Miss Crooks

2:59

is a little startled. A

3:01

moment ago, head down at her desk she was

3:04

asked for a single room for one night. Looking

3:07

up to see the owner of the masculine

3:09

voice she was surprised to see a man

3:11

in woman's clothing. His face doesn't

3:13

have any makeup at all. He's freckled

3:15

and tanned. But around his

3:17

jawline and on his neck there's a

3:19

heavy smear of cream and powder. But

3:22

it's doing nothing to conceal the two-day

3:24

growth of beard. Miss Crooks keeps her

3:26

composure and asks for a name. The

3:29

man says, N Williams. The

3:31

receptionist refrains from asking is that Miss or

3:33

Mrs. Instead she makes a booking for room

3:35

441 on the 4th floor. After

3:40

Miss Crooks hands over the key and

3:42

watches this Miss Williams depart for the

3:44

upstairs, the receptionist goes to find her

3:46

manager Mr. Horn. But he's not

3:48

available so she sees the assistant manager.

3:51

This assistant relays Miss Crooks report to

3:53

the man in charge. Mr.

3:55

Horn does not like what he hears. The

3:58

Victoria Coffee Palace is a respectable Melbourne

4:00

Institution. It's been a temperance

4:02

hotel, that is, alcohol free since it

4:04

opened in 1880. The

4:07

Victoria Coffee Palace is a place for

4:09

single women, families and clergy to stay

4:11

without fear they're going to be exposed

4:13

to sin and debauchery. What

4:16

will people think if a man in a dress

4:18

is wandering around the halls? The

4:20

ruffled Mr Horn picks up the phone and calls

4:22

the police at Russell Street. In

4:24

the meantime he sends an attendant up

4:26

to room 441. He's

4:28

to say he's just looking for a parcel

4:30

left by a previous guest. In

4:33

reality he's to ensure that the man dressed

4:35

as a woman is in the room. Yet

4:38

in doing this he's tipped off Herbert

4:40

Coppett. I'm

4:43

Michael Adams and this is the third and

4:45

final part of the Forgotten Australia episode, Nightmare

4:48

on the Night Train. Herbert

4:53

Coppett just needed a place to rest for

4:55

an hour. His plan was to get out

4:57

of the women's clothing, get out of Melbourne,

4:59

get to Adelaide and then get out of

5:01

the country. What he wanted was

5:03

to put all of his behind him and to

5:05

just disappear. But when the attendant

5:07

came to the room on that flimsy

5:10

pretext he knew the police wouldn't be

5:12

far behind. His nerves shot, he needed

5:14

an escape plan. A

5:18

phone call to Russell Street Police headquarters

5:21

about a man in a dress checking

5:23

into a Melbourne hotel was hardly an

5:25

investigative priority. Mr Horn wasn't

5:27

on the phone saying that the man in

5:29

question was drunk, that he'd offended anyone or

5:31

that he was acting indecently. Last

5:33

year when police had arrested a fellow for wearing a

5:36

frock in the city the case had been chucked out

5:38

of court by a magistrate. Except

5:40

on this Sunday in what was described

5:42

as an amazing coincidence Melbourne police were

5:44

actually on the lookout for a cross

5:46

dresser who'd lately been making a nuisance

5:48

of himself in the city. This

5:51

might be their man. Detective

5:53

Constable William Garvey got the job and

5:55

with his partner Senior Constable Morgan went

5:57

to the Victoria Coffee Palace. manager,

6:00

Mr Horn, accompanied them up to room 441.

6:04

Herbert Copet had not left. Inside,

6:06

the police found a man in women's clothing,

6:08

just as they had been told. Detective

6:11

Garvey came right out with it. He said,

6:13

you're not a woman, you're a man. The

6:16

suspect was equally forthright in his reply.

6:19

I'm a man, alright? This is part of a joke.

6:22

The police asked who he was. He

6:25

told them, Harry Stevens. He

6:27

lived in Victoria Valley in the Grampians, where

6:29

he worked for a man named MacArthur. But

6:32

right now, he was on holidays and staying

6:34

in Elwood Street in St Kilda. He

6:37

and a mate, a Mr Zolio, had come up

6:39

with a practical joke. A mutual

6:41

friend, John Buchanan of South Yarra, was going to

6:43

visit a young lady at this hotel. The man

6:45

in the dress told the police and the manager,

6:47

quote, and I am to be the young lady

6:50

in question. Detective

6:52

Garvey checked the room. There was

6:54

a bottle of peroxide and a tin of powder. The

6:57

man in the dress explained they were going to be used

6:59

to help him carry out this prank properly. Detective

7:02

Garvey wanted to know, where did you

7:04

get the clothes you were wearing? My

7:06

sister, the man said. These are some of

7:08

her old clothes. The

7:10

officer asked, what's your sister's name? The

7:13

man replied, Katherine Williams. The

7:16

man said that this sister was staying with him at

7:18

St Kilda. For the police,

7:20

this was all shaping up to be nothing more than

7:22

a waste of time. But there

7:24

was a loose thread in what the man had just

7:26

said, and Detective Garvey pulled at it. About

7:29

this sister, he asked, her name

7:31

is the same as yours? The man

7:33

in the dress answered, yes. But

7:35

this fellow had given the name Williams when he checked

7:38

in, and now he just said his

7:40

real name was Harry Stevens. Detective

7:42

Garvey called him on it and said, you're

7:44

lying. You've given me different surnames

7:46

for yourself and your sister. The

7:49

man in the dress hesitated and he seemed

7:51

agitated. At this moment, Herbert

7:53

Coppert only had to say that his

7:55

sister had a different surname because she'd

7:57

been married, or even that she was

8:00

his half-sister. Instead,

8:02

what he said was this, Well,

8:05

you'll get me sooner or later, and I may as well

8:07

tell you the truth. My proper name

8:09

is Herbert Coppett, and I come from Pialba in

8:11

Queensland, and I am wanted by the police for

8:14

killing two men in a train up there a

8:16

few days ago. It's

8:18

hard to imagine what hearing this was like for

8:21

the police in hotel room 441. Early Sunday

8:24

afternoon, an ordinary enough day.

8:27

Then this call-out to what looked like a

8:29

harmless practical joke. Now this man

8:32

in the dress claimed he was responsible for

8:34

battering two men to death three days ago,

8:36

some 1200 miles north. Detective

8:40

Garvey kept cool. The man

8:42

might be playing some other sort of joke. He

8:44

asked, What men were they? Tell

8:46

me about them. Herbert Coppett

8:49

did just that. He

8:51

also showed the police a pair of blood-stained pants

8:53

in his suitcase, saying, These are the trousers

8:55

I was wearing when I attacked the men in the scene.

8:58

Senior Constable Morgan left to get higher ranking

9:01

officers. While he was gone, Detective

9:03

Garvey told Herbert to get out of the women's

9:05

clothes. He did, and he

9:08

also showed the police officer the coat

9:10

and trousers that he'd stolen from Harold

9:12

Spearing. The two men

9:14

who arrived from the CIB were

9:16

Inspector Alex McCarroll and Senior Detective

9:18

Bill Sloan. These two

9:20

men had been instrumental recently in

9:23

arresting Arnold Soderman, the serial killer

9:25

who'd murdered four young girls. Right

9:28

now, Soderman was awaiting his date with

9:30

the hangman at Pentridge Prison. Was

9:33

this creep in room 441 sitting on

9:35

the bed in his singlet and underpants

9:38

really another murderous fiend? Detective

9:40

Sloan asked who he was. The

9:42

man answered, Herbert Coppett, I'm known

9:44

here as Colbert. Detective

9:47

Sloan asked, Why did you kill those men

9:49

in Brisbane? Herbert Coppett answered,

9:52

I was at the old game. I was going to

9:54

barber one of the men when the conductor came up.

9:56

He told them what had happened to conductor Tom

9:59

Boyes and to Frank Costello. Detective

10:02

Sloan asked, what about the third

10:04

man? Didn't he put up a fight? The

10:07

suspect replied, no, he was asleep.

10:09

The officer asked, well, why did

10:11

you knock him if he was asleep? Herbert

10:14

replied, I thought I might as

10:16

well do the lot once I got started. Herbert

10:19

dressed and was taken to Russell Street,

10:21

CIB for questioning. There, Detective

10:24

Sloan followed the procedure of

10:26

handwriting a statement based on

10:28

Herbert's confession. This filled five

10:30

blue full-scale pages. Herbert

10:32

made some alterations, initialed those and

10:34

signed the statement, the wording including

10:36

that he'd not been threatened or

10:38

induced to make his confession. Herbert

10:42

was well aware that Arnold Soderman was

10:44

about to hang. In the

10:46

past few days, his story had been

10:48

all over the newspapers in Australia, often

10:50

sharing pages with the latest updates about

10:53

the Queensland mail train killer. That

10:55

was because Soderman was due to hang

10:58

tomorrow morning until a last minute stay

11:00

of execution had come through. Herbert

11:03

Copet knew he didn't have to worry

11:05

about having a noose around his neck

11:07

because Queensland had abolished the death penalty

11:09

back in 1922. He reportedly said

11:12

to the police, quote, up north,

11:14

you can only go to the boob for life. The

11:17

boob was Boggo Road Jail. What

11:20

Herbert didn't want was to go to

11:22

Goodner, which was Brisbane's lunatic asylum. Herbert

11:25

reportedly said he'd rather go to prison for

11:27

the rest of his days than suffer that

11:29

fate. Herbert's confession was

11:31

florid, detailing how he'd first attack

11:33

conductor Tom Boyes, then Casello and

11:36

then finally spearing, quote,

11:38

there was only one other left, so I thought

11:40

I'd finish him off too. I went to where

11:42

he was sleeping in his birth and let him

11:44

have it. His two

11:46

murders had netted him about 22 pounds.

11:49

Of this, he had just five pounds, 15

11:52

shillings left in his lady's handbag. He'd

11:54

spent most of the money he'd stolen getting

11:56

away. Herbert also told

11:59

Melbourne police that he'd stayed in Room

12:01

7 at the Doncaster Hotel in Kensington the

12:03

night before last. He still had the

12:05

key in his possession. Melbourne

12:07

Police called their Sydney counterparts. Detective

12:11

McCray and Queensland detectives Mahoney and Brannelly

12:13

were astounded and grateful for the news,

12:15

though no doubt they wished they'd been

12:17

the ones to call her the killer.

12:20

The Queensland detectives also had to be

12:22

surprised at hearing the name of the

12:24

suspect. They knew Herbert Coppet,

12:26

who'd been convicted several times recently in

12:29

their city. The three police

12:31

officers went out to the hotel at Kensington.

12:34

In Room 7, on top of the

12:36

wardrobe, they found Harold Spearing's PMG attache

12:38

case and the folded paper that contained

12:40

the hair that Coppet had shaved off

12:42

as he prepared to escape Sydney dressed

12:44

as a woman. This

12:47

evidence meant that there was absolutely no doubt

12:49

Melbourne Police had the right man. In

12:52

Melbourne that night, at Russell Street Police

12:55

headquarters, Herbert Coppet was formally arrested. The

12:58

next morning, he'd be remanded for a week

13:00

on suspicion of murder and was to be

13:02

held until Queensland Police arrived to extradite him.

13:05

News of his arrest was a national sensation.

13:08

The courier mail said, quote, "...the

13:10

pursuit threw three states of the unknown

13:12

suspect who travelled 1,200 miles in

13:15

three and a half days, using half

13:17

a dozen taxi cabs, a motor bus,

13:19

a rail motor and two interstate express

13:22

trains for his flight has been the

13:24

greatest test Australian interstate police organisation has

13:26

had." There was no doubting

13:28

that. But there was also

13:31

no doubting that in the end, just

13:33

as Herbert Coppet had been incredibly lucky

13:35

to make such a rapid escape, he'd

13:37

been unlucky to front up to a

13:39

receptionist who was suspicious enough to raise

13:41

the alarm. Queensland

13:43

detectives Mahoney and Branley went down to

13:45

Melbourne to extradite the alleged killer. By

13:48

Friday, they had him under guard on the

13:50

express train back to Sydney. There,

13:53

he showed them the Kensington Hotel where he'd

13:55

stayed and the shops where he'd bought the

13:57

women's clothing. In the days it

13:59

followed, in North More than New South Wales

14:01

and southern Queensland, the accused killer

14:03

helpfully retraced his steps for detectives.

14:06

He showed them where he'd caught cabs and where he'd

14:08

caught buses and trains. Herbert showed

14:10

them where he'd thrown the tyre iron from the train

14:12

near Woollewyn. In a Lantana

14:15

bush outside my Wollombaar, they recovered,

14:17

conducted tomboys, diagram of the sleeping

14:19

carriage. The police took him

14:21

to Car 997, which had been kept sealed

14:23

and in the same condition that Herbert Coppert

14:25

had left it in. He'd took

14:28

them through what he'd done. Herbert

14:30

participated in several lineups. Most

14:33

of the witnesses couldn't pick him out because they'd

14:35

seen him in the dark or in the dawn

14:37

light. But blue and

14:39

white taxi driver Mr Bourne was certain

14:41

that Herbert Coppert was the man he'd

14:43

driven from South Brisbane to Coolen Gatta,

14:45

the man who'd paid him with four

14:47

one pound notes including one that had

14:49

been blood stained. Woollewyn

14:52

station mistress Henrietta Roberts also made

14:54

a positive ID. Charged

14:58

with the murders of Harold Spearing and Frank

15:00

Costello, Herbert Coppert faced his committal hearing at

15:02

the City Police Court on 29 April 1936.

15:07

His barrister was Daniel Casey. Then

15:10

a brilliant up and comer, he'd later

15:12

become a Queensland criminal defence legend. He

15:15

tried to have Herbert's statements to the police in

15:18

Melbourne suppressed. The grounds for

15:20

this were that the accused hadn't been

15:22

officially arrested and in custody when he'd

15:24

made his supposed confession. Further,

15:26

he hadn't been adequately cautioned that what

15:28

he said could be used against him.

15:31

Why had Detective Bill Sloan written the statement

15:34

when the accused was able to read and

15:36

write? The answer, Detective Sloan

15:38

said, was that it was just procedure in

15:40

Melbourne. The judge allowed the

15:42

statement to be entered into evidence and he also

15:44

allowed it to be released to the press. Now

15:47

all of Australia could read the

15:49

callous confession made by Herbert Coppert.

15:52

About 40 witnesses were called. And

15:55

Dr Tom Boyes was not going to be one of them.

15:58

He'd survived but he had no... Memory of

16:00

the attack or anything much else. Even

16:03

if he had, he wasn't able to speak. Tomboy.

16:06

Was never to fully recover. Could.

16:08

Suffer a raft of physical, psychological

16:10

and emotional problems for the rest

16:12

of his life is devoted wife

16:14

Rachel now is full time carer.

16:17

The witnesses who did testify included the

16:19

Melbourne police or hotel porter from Kansas

16:21

could sing type of. at the time

16:23

he'd stolen the rail pass and John

16:25

Forbes who's to Get had been stolen.

16:28

Grow. I put a Arthur saw describe

16:30

discovering the crime scene. An ambulance driver

16:33

Donald Smith told of trying to say

16:35

the victims. Detective Mahoney told

16:37

is going to Melbourne and taking another confession

16:39

from her that and said that the accused

16:41

had told him he was pleased to have

16:43

been caught because he affair was quite getting

16:46

on his nerves. To take

16:48

the money gave evidence regarding the tar

16:50

leave Us and the bloodstained cash. The

16:52

hearing lasted three days and was the

16:54

subject of intense public and press interest.

16:57

When all the evidence was heard the judge

16:59

committed heard that type of to stand trial

17:01

to the murders of Herald Spearing and Sang

17:04

Castillo. In. Response has pleaded

17:06

not guilty, but said he'd reserves his

17:08

defense with the trial. The. Crown

17:10

then asked that the accused be reminded

17:12

that eight days until the charge of

17:15

attempting to murder conducted tomboy could be

17:17

heard. This. Was granted and after

17:19

that reminds would be sued h wait

17:21

until the trial. While.

17:23

He was in custody herbert at his first

17:26

visit. her. This. Was a step

17:28

sister who traveled up from city and gotten

17:30

permission to see him for ten minutes. This.

17:33

Is it under supervision was reported to

17:35

be a warm reunion. The step sister

17:37

was said to be planning to come

17:39

back, but if she did, it didn't

17:41

make the papers. However, reporters did

17:43

protect her privacy by not disclosing

17:45

her name. Has. It was

17:47

described as being caught and well behaved

17:49

behind bars. He shunned other

17:51

remind prisoners and spent most of his

17:54

time reading books from the prison library.

17:56

headed surprise gods with is fairly

17:58

refined glittery ties When

18:02

Herbert went to trial in the Supreme Court on

18:04

the 24th of June 1936, it was

18:07

on the sole charge of having murdered

18:09

Harold Spearing. Should he

18:11

be acquitted, he could then be tried for Frank

18:13

Clostello's murder. Henry's barrister

18:15

Dan Casey again tried to have

18:17

the confession excluded. Mr

18:20

Justice Neil McCrossan ruled it was

18:22

admissible. The witnesses were the

18:24

same as they'd been in the committal

18:26

hearing and they gave much the same

18:29

evidence. This included the taxi driver and

18:31

station mistress making positive IDs. A

18:33

gruesome and dramatic moment came when the doctor

18:36

who performed the autopsies produced a piece of

18:38

Clostello's skull and showed how

18:40

the flat end of the tyre lever fit

18:42

perfectly into the fracture. When

18:45

the Crown case was concluded, Dan Casey

18:47

told the court his client would be

18:49

relying solely on the defence of insanity.

18:53

Herbert Coppet, he said, had killed Harold

18:55

Spearing in a frenzy. He

18:57

hadn't known what he was doing and he

18:59

hadn't really understood right from wrong. To

19:02

set up this defence, Dan Casey told the

19:04

court how Herbert's mother had recently been

19:06

in a mental institution and

19:09

how all those years ago he'd

19:11

been abandoned by his Cairo-born optician

19:13

father. Dan Casey said to

19:15

the jury, This was Dr. Julius

19:17

Streeter and he'd be the only witness for the defence. Contemporary

19:44

references I've seen to Dr. Streeter say

19:46

that he was the heroic surgeon of

19:48

the Great War who'd survived a mustard

19:50

gas attack at the Battle of Ypres.

19:54

If that was the case, it's not in his

19:56

military file. Rather, he embarked from

19:58

Sydney in March of nineteen-six. and

20:01

by the middle of that year was at

20:03

death's door because he'd contracted the Spanish flu.

20:06

Dr. Streeter survived, came back to

20:08

Australia, became a psychiatrist and the

20:11

leader of the Douglas Credit Party,

20:13

a political party that espoused the

20:15

state giving money directly to its

20:17

citizens. So he was a fairly

20:19

high-profile citizen in Queensland in 1936.

20:23

As a psychiatrist, he examined Herbert at the

20:25

end of May. Dr. Streeter

20:27

told the court there was nothing physically wrong

20:29

with Herbert. Quote, the first

20:31

thing I observed was what is known

20:34

as emotional deficiency. Justice

20:36

McCrossan asked if this was the same

20:38

as being callous. Dr. Streeter

20:40

said not quite. He said

20:43

Herbert had discussed the crime freely, but

20:45

quote, did not show any remorse or

20:47

emotional excitement. The

20:49

judge asked if that meant the accused

20:51

had quote, lack of sentiments one usually

20:54

associates with human nature. Dr.

20:56

Streeter said yes, that described it

20:58

correctly. Justice McCrossan said

21:00

he'd been watching the accused in court

21:02

and that he seemed amused by the

21:04

proceedings. He didn't seem lacking

21:07

in sentiments in that regard. Dr.

21:09

Streeter said, I'm endeavouring to

21:11

give an explanation of Copet's peculiarity

21:14

in killing people. His

21:16

honour asked, you're not treating it as a

21:18

habit, are you? Dr. Streeter said, no,

21:20

he wasn't. His honour continued,

21:22

there is one thing about Copet. He is

21:24

very much seized with the law of self

21:27

preservation, isn't he? Dr. Streeter

21:29

didn't agree. Quote, I

21:31

think with Copet, rather less than in the

21:33

average human. The judge

21:35

wasn't buying this. The

21:37

man was in the dock accused of killing

21:39

another person to preserve himself. Dr.

21:42

Streeter pressed on, telling the court of

21:44

Herbert's youth in the reformatory and his

21:47

disadvantages. The judge countered

21:49

by saying many children pulled themselves

21:51

up from such circumstances. He

21:53

could point to the present state premier as

21:55

an example. Dr. Streeter claimed,

21:58

I would say for the normal child. it would be

22:00

a very difficult task, but with Coppert,

22:03

with Bad, her Reddit3 as well, it

22:05

would be almost, if not quite, an

22:07

impossible task. Dr. Streeter

22:09

told the court about learning about Herbert's

22:12

auto-sexual habits in the reformatory, his fear

22:14

of insanity, and the cruelty

22:16

to animals that the doctor put down

22:18

to unconscious sadism. As

22:20

for the crime, when the conductor had rushed

22:23

him, Dr. Streeter said, quote, I

22:25

think that he acted instinctively, the intellectual

22:27

part of his emotional reaction being that

22:29

he rushed for the spanner, but

22:32

I question whether a perverted mentality of that

22:34

type from the moment the guard rushed at

22:36

him could have acted in any other way.

22:39

In other words, Herbert hadn't been able to

22:41

help himself. Dr. Streeter

22:43

said that his bad hereditary and environment

22:45

would have seen him suffer thousands of

22:47

traumatic moments that had moulded his character.

22:51

Yet Dr. Streeter was arguing that

22:53

Herbert hadn't been able to control

22:55

himself only during a very specific

22:58

period. That was from when he

23:00

attacked conductor Boyz to the moment

23:02

he delivered the last skull-shattering blow

23:04

to Harold Spearing. And this

23:06

was a major problem for the defence. Herbert

23:09

had displayed nothing but cool cunning after

23:11

the crime. The judge asked

23:13

when it was exactly that Herbert's

23:15

madness had ceased. Dr.

23:18

Streeter answered, I take it that his

23:20

intellect began to work almost immediately afterwards.

23:23

The judge spelt this out for the jury,

23:25

quote, his dementia, I take

23:27

it, had ceased by the time he

23:29

took Spearing's clothes and clad himself in

23:32

them in place of his own blood-stained

23:34

garments when he washed the tie lever

23:36

and took Spearing's ticket. Under

23:38

cross-examination, Dr. Streeter had to say that

23:40

he did believe Herbert Coppett had known

23:42

what he was doing when he stole

23:44

the tie-line and that he'd been planning

23:46

for the possibility of violence. Dr.

23:49

Streeter said that at that moment Herbert had

23:51

known right from wrong. Quote,

23:53

the dementia lasted only from the time

23:56

he hit the conductor until he had

23:58

killed Spearing. sounded incredibly

24:01

convenient. And what

24:03

also didn't help Dr. Streeter's argument was

24:05

that his correspondence with a colleague was

24:07

read in court. It

24:09

included this, quote, This

24:11

case offers the opportunity of educating

24:13

some of the judiciary at least

24:15

with regard to scientific determinism, and

24:18

may help on the inevitable conclusion

24:20

that a very large proportion of

24:22

criminals, and he put criminals in

24:24

inverted commas, are manufactured by the

24:27

defective social and economic system. So

24:30

this psychologist politician was using Herbert

24:33

Coppet's case as a teachable moment.

24:36

In rebuttal, the Crown produced Dr.

24:38

Gavin Cameron, government medical officer, who

24:41

said he'd examined Herbert Coppet a

24:43

dozen times and found absolutely no

24:45

suggestion of insanity or mental impairment.

24:49

He said the accused had known what he was

24:51

doing and knew the difference between right and wrong.

24:54

Charles McCrossan, who had made

24:56

several sarcastic observations about the

24:58

judiciary's supposed lack of understanding

25:00

of matters scientific and psychological,

25:02

told the court he believed

25:04

Dr. Streeter's argument was, quote,

25:06

A great deal of nonsense.

25:10

On the third day, with the Crown and

25:12

defence cases closed, the judge summed up by

25:14

setting out the definition of murder and what

25:16

was expected of the jury. Of

25:19

Dr. Streeter's insanity defence, he said, quote,

25:21

I sincerely hope his form of

25:24

scientific determinism will never be addled

25:26

upon the administration of the criminal

25:28

law of Queensland. The

25:30

jury retired around 4 p.m. on Friday, the

25:33

26th of June, 1936. Forty

25:37

minutes later, they were back. Herbert

25:39

Coppet turned pale and drummed his fingers on

25:42

the side of the dock. The

25:44

foreman delivered the verdict, guilty

25:46

of willful murder. Justice

25:49

McCrossan was satisfied and said that no

25:51

other outcome had been possible on the

25:53

evidence presented. Herbert

25:56

was asked if he had anything to say before

25:58

he was sentenced. He said, I

26:00

wish to thank my legal representatives. What

26:03

they did was without any assistance from me.

26:06

In other words, he knew he wasn't insane."

26:10

Justice McCrossan sentenced Herbert Coppett to life

26:12

in prison. The Crown said

26:14

that at this point they weren't going to

26:16

proceed with the second charge of murder and

26:18

that they'd also not proceed with the attempted

26:20

murder charge. Queensland had

26:22

Herbert Coppett where he needed to be,

26:25

behind bars in Boggo Road Jail for

26:27

the rest of his life. Coppett

26:30

was only 23 years old. As

26:32

it stood, he might serve 60 years,

26:34

but there was anger he wasn't eligible

26:36

for the noose. Three

26:39

weeks earlier, down in Melbourne, serial

26:41

killer Arnold Soderman had been executed

26:43

for his crimes. Tired

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26:50

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to catch up on the latest

27:11

episodes without the ads. Somehow,

27:17

while Herbert was on remand, Truth

27:20

newspaper had gotten access to him

27:22

for an interview. They'd

27:24

held off reporting this during the trial and

27:26

then waited until it was announced he wasn't

27:28

going to appeal his conviction. Then,

27:31

his interview was front page, complete

27:33

with a photo of the smiling,

27:35

now convicted killer. Herbert

27:37

had told the paper quote, Of course,

27:39

when I started as a crook, I never thought I'd

27:41

end up a murderer. Even when

27:44

I got on the train at Gimpy, I didn't think the

27:46

trip would end like it has. He

27:48

continued, I just meant to barber

27:50

the passengers, and I took the tire lever, not

27:52

with the idea of killing anybody, but because I

27:54

thought that it might end in a case of

27:56

robbery with violence. As for reflecting

27:58

on what it actually happened, he said, I

28:01

haven't thought much about what I did. I never

28:03

thought it was wrong of me to steal, and

28:06

since my arrest I haven't thought about the murders,

28:08

but I feel a genuine regret for the relatives

28:10

of the dead men, and I'm sorry for them.

28:13

Herbert alluded to experiencing what sounded

28:15

like shock after his bloody rampage

28:17

on Car Quote,

28:20

My mind was a blank when I left the train

28:22

and started on my flight. I didn't

28:25

feel any remorse, didn't regret that I'd killed.

28:27

I didn't think I was conscious that

28:29

I'd done a terrible thing. He went

28:31

on. Well, it wasn't until I got to

28:33

Sydney that I began to feel any nerves.

28:36

I suppose it was the reaction. I don't really know,

28:38

but I seemed to be conscious of what I had

28:40

done. I thought more of it than I

28:42

had done before. He

28:44

thought more of it, but not enough

28:46

to actually feel any remorse, let alone

28:48

turn himself in. In fact,

28:51

quite the reverse. Quote, But

28:53

all along I was absolutely confident I'd be

28:55

able to beat the police. I hadn't any

28:58

doubt about that. Herbert told

29:00

of how he'd walked around Sydney in women's

29:02

clothing and seemed not to be noticed. But

29:05

at Mossvale and on the train to Melbourne,

29:07

people had seen through his disguise. Herbert

29:10

claimed to truth that in the Victoria Coffee

29:12

Palace, he'd known the police were coming for

29:14

him after the porter had come up to

29:16

the room on the pretext of looking for

29:18

that lost parcel. Quote, I

29:20

tried to think of some way of escape, but I knew

29:22

there was none. My nerves weren't too

29:24

good. I racked my brains, but I couldn't see

29:26

how I could escape. Herbert

29:29

claimed, if only I'd had

29:31

another hour in Melbourne, they would never have got

29:33

me. I would have slipped right through their fingers.

29:36

During this interview, which was before his trial,

29:38

he said he didn't really care what happened

29:40

to him. And after he was convicted, truth

29:42

reckoned he'd said, this will be easy. I

29:44

can do this on one leg. A life

29:47

sentence, Herbert said, was a bit like a

29:49

book. Sooner or later, it'd end.

29:53

In August 1936, Herbert

29:55

slashed himself with a razor. The

29:57

wounds were not serious. This

30:00

was depicted in the press as a

30:02

fake suicide bid meant to get him

30:04

attention and sympathy. After

30:07

this, Herbert settled into prison life and worked in

30:10

the tailor's shop. Soon, many

30:12

of Boggo Road's prisoners were wearing clothes

30:14

that he'd made. And

30:16

as he had on the outside, Herbert kept

30:18

himself as neat and clean as possible. Newspaper

30:21

reports about him were based on released

30:24

prisoners' accounts and on jail scuttlebutt. Not

30:27

surprisingly, they varied. Some

30:29

reports said he was quiet, unassuming, if

30:31

a bit of a dandy and reasonably

30:33

well-liked by other prisoners. But

30:35

other reports depicted him as a hated

30:38

figure, both for the brutality of his

30:40

cowardly murders and for the haughty way

30:42

he conducted himself in prison. In

30:45

1941, five years after the

30:47

murders, Herbert sought leave to

30:49

appeal his conviction. This

30:51

was denied, dismissed as frivolous.

30:55

Five years later, 1946, he

30:57

was reported to be in the prison hospital with

30:59

asthma. Further stories of his

31:01

respiratory problems popped up now and again.

31:05

On the 1st of July, 1950, 14 years after he was

31:07

battered, at the age of 72, former conductor Tom

31:13

Boyes died. Given

31:15

he'd never really recovered from his injuries,

31:17

his death was reported as him being

31:19

the victim of a slow-motion murder. Preparing

31:23

to make this episode, I contacted the

31:26

Queensland State Archives and used supporter funds

31:28

to pay the fee to have Herbert

31:30

Coppett's murder file forwarded to me in

31:32

digital format. Given

31:35

numerous 1936 newspaper reports included references

31:37

to extensive police documentation of this

31:39

case, I'd hoped it'd be a

31:41

treasure trove. But all that was

31:43

left was a few pages. Yet, these

31:46

provided an insight that wasn't found in any

31:48

of the press coverage. In

31:50

the form of a handwritten letter that

31:53

Herbert Coppett wrote to Inspector Jessen of

31:55

the Brisbane CIB. He wrote

31:57

it in July 1937, when he'd been in prison for a year. year.

32:01

What he wanted was the return of his

32:03

possessions. He said that Detective

32:05

Mahoney and his colleagues, quote, know the property

32:07

I refer to. Herbert was talking

32:09

about the female clothing he'd been wearing

32:12

when he was arrested. He

32:14

wanted these garments and accessories sent to

32:16

him in Boggo Road Jail. Remarkably,

32:18

the archive file contains a

32:21

follow-up document. This was a

32:23

typewritten form, signed by Herbert, acknowledging

32:25

that the items had been returned

32:27

to him, from bra and undies

32:29

to skirt and handbag. What

32:31

he wanted with these isn't known. If

32:34

anything, they weren't a trophy of his cunning,

32:36

but the opposite. If Herbert

32:38

had merely bought another male suit in Sydney,

32:40

he would have slipped out of the city

32:43

and arrived in Melbourne undetected. By trying to

32:45

pass himself off as a woman, he'd sealed

32:47

his fate. Herbert Coppett

32:49

suffered a bad asthma attack in the third

32:51

week of March, 1951. It was

32:54

bad enough that he was moved to Brisbane

32:56

General Hospital. And that's where he

32:58

died on Monday, the 26th of March. He

33:01

was 39 years old. Herbert

33:03

wasn't lamented. Truth railed

33:06

that he should have died 15 years earlier

33:08

in the noose, rather than passing comfortably

33:10

in a hospital bed. The

33:12

paper's big feature that week recounted his

33:15

life and crimes and it bore the

33:17

headline, Man without a soul. I'm

33:21

Michael Adams and you've been listening to Forgotten

33:24

Australia. If you've enjoyed this

33:26

show, I'd love it if you could leave

33:28

a rating or review at Apple Podcasts or

33:30

wherever you get your downloads. Doing

33:32

this really helps the show reach other people.

33:35

Also, make sure you're subscribed so you get

33:37

every new episode as soon as it's released.

33:39

Thanks to everyone who's supporting the show via Patreon,

33:42

and if you want to chip in, the link's

33:44

in your show notes. Forgotten

33:46

Australia is written and produced by me in

33:49

the Blue Mountains of New South Wales on

33:51

land traditionally owned by the Darug and Gundungurra

33:53

people. As always, thanks for

33:55

listening. you

34:06

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