0:00

Hello and welcome to Foundation, the official podcast

0:02

from Apple TV+. I'm your host

0:05

Jason Concepcion and this is

0:07

your guide to the galaxy from Trantor to

0:09

Terminus and hundreds of millions of other worlds.

0:11

Space is a big place. We aim to make it smaller

0:13

and brighter and add some context to everything you

0:15

see on the show. Every week I'm

0:18

recapping and breaking apart every episode of

0:20

Season 2 with Foundation showrunner and executive

0:22

producer David S. Goyer. Thanks for

0:24

having me. And this

0:25

episode we are talking about the finale, David.

0:27

It's the last episode of Season Yep.

0:31

The finale is titled Creation

0:33

Myths, which really started

0:36

a lot of wheels turning for me. I thought it was amazing.

0:39

And for our finale, we're

0:41

very excited to be joined by I think

0:43

arguably the most romantic

0:44

member of the

0:46

Imperial trio, Cassian Bilton, who

0:48

plays Dawn. Cleon the Younger, welcome Cassian.

0:51

Hey Jason, very happy to be here. I

0:54

like being called a romantic as well, that's kind. All

0:57

right, quickly a recap.

1:00

This episode, written by yourself,

1:02

David, and Liz Pong, directed by Alex Graves.

1:05

We start by learning

1:07

Harry's plan, how he escaped what

1:10

seemed to be sure death.

1:13

You drowned. I saw your

1:15

body. I held it. Of

1:17

course, we saw or appeared to see Harry

1:20

drown in episode six, but we learned

1:22

that he actually didn't drown. You

1:24

held a body, Salvo. It

1:26

just wasn't mine. Gail used a bit

1:28

of her mentalic powers. Harry

1:31

overpowered the guard. Gail used

1:33

some illusion magic and through the last few episodes,

1:36

they both went into mental and physical

1:39

hiding to prevent anyone from seeing

1:41

through the ruse. So we counted primes

1:43

together, a barricade of numbers

1:45

to shield our thoughts.

1:47

Very, very sneaky. With Tellum off

1:50

the board, the mentalics wake up and they

1:52

seem very pleased at this turn of

1:54

events. Our thoughts are on. You freed

1:56

us. They even throw a

1:58

barbecue for their new friends. celebrate their freedom,

2:00

but unfortunately, young Josiah

2:03

has a little echo of Telham

2:05

still bouncing around somewhere in there, and

2:07

he draws down on Gail, but Salvor

2:10

senses that something's about to happen. She catches the

2:12

bullet for Gail, and

2:14

I was left absolutely

2:17

floored by this. She dies in

2:20

Gail's arms, essentially.

2:21

Help! Someone help us!

2:24

Still wary of the Mule, Harry and

2:26

Gail enter Cryosleep. Together,

2:28

Gail is on a power

2:31

trip after destroying Terminus. He wants to blow

2:33

up every planet that crossed him. We

2:36

will destroy them all!

2:39

Belle refuses. You know,

2:41

that's just too much. One planet fine, but seven

2:43

or more planets, that's too much. Hobur

2:46

then shows that he has

2:48

been in cahoots with the Spacers and

2:51

unveils their plan to crash the Imperial

2:53

fleet into itself. We played

2:55

you. And then through the use of

2:57

that nifty castling device, day

3:00

is ejected into space. Constant

3:02

is loaded up on the only ship that can escape

3:04

the Desti's destruction. Not a

3:07

ship, a cleaning module. That's the cleaning module.

3:09

The external cleaning module. Hobur

3:12

and Belle go down with the ship, toasting

3:14

the rebels with some of that terrible, terrible

3:17

wine that's over his mid-saving

3:19

up.

3:20

They taste the, I mean,

3:22

there's a sweetness, but it's shit, right?

3:25

I think it might be cold. Constant's

3:27

cleaning module docks into

3:30

the vault, floating through

3:32

space. And guess what? Everybody

3:34

is in the vault. The vault can do a great

3:37

many things. Space of course works

3:39

very, very differently in the vault, as we know, but this

3:41

is a shock. Dr. Seldin reveals

3:43

he always planned to sacrifice Terminus, but not

3:46

its people. A kind god after all.

3:49

Finally on Trantor, Demorzel is

3:52

trying to mop up all the kleonic

3:54

messes that have spilled everywhere. She's

3:57

now told Dusk and Rue her whole story.

3:59

We could reprogram you.

4:02

I would destroy you if you tried. She

4:04

can't leave them alive, so

4:06

she must kill them. It is my job to root

4:08

out secrets. She also reveals that she

4:10

was the one responsible for hiring the Blind Angels

4:13

to assassinate Day in our first episode,

4:16

framing Sarath and Rue in order to prevent the

4:18

marriage and preserve the authority

4:20

of the Genetic Dynasty. You're the one puppeteering

4:23

this whole show. A puppeteer

4:25

pulling her own strings. Sarath is rested.

4:28

Dawn realizes that Demarzel has

4:30

betrayed them. He sages a public wedding,

4:32

so she can't kill them brazenly.

4:36

Demarzel is ready to step in and kill

4:38

them anyway, but then she realizes, wait, that's not them.

4:40

They're using face-gramblers. I've been duped. Dawn

4:43

and Sarath, ready to start the rebellion

4:45

from somewhere in the galaxy, they

4:47

flee. I will be required to

4:49

hunt you down. That's three Kleons down for

4:51

Demarzel. She goes to the Kleon Cellar

4:54

to decant a fresh batch. And

4:57

she has the Prime Radiant, another

4:59

huge shock. I can already

5:02

see the wonderful things fly ahead. But

5:05

that's not it. We end the season on

5:07

a delicious cliffhanger of

5:10

a hook. We see the Mule looking

5:13

terrified, vulnerable, scared

5:15

of Gail Dornick talking to

5:18

someone.

5:18

You're not going to tell us, but who is

5:20

it, David? Obviously, I'm not going to tell you. Gosh.

5:26

I feel excitement

5:29

and a little bit of pride of

5:31

not calling things, but

5:34

kind of knowing that there was a larger plan taking

5:36

place. How are you feeling? Emotional.

5:38

I mean, it took us about two

5:41

years to make it. We shot for 213 days. So

5:46

yeah, this season finale

5:48

was trickier than season

5:50

one, because yes, there were some surprises

5:53

revealed, in particular the parentage

5:55

of Salver. But that

5:58

episode functioned a bit more.

5:59

like a coda, whereas this one, it

6:02

was just we had to make due

6:04

on all of these things that we'd

6:06

set up. And so it was like, are

6:08

we going to stick a landing and is this

6:10

going to be elegant or is this the whole

6:12

thing just going to collapse under its own weight

6:15

and just break apart? But I'm

6:17

incredibly proud of it. And I

6:20

think we stuck the landing. I would say

6:22

so. And a lot of second

6:24

seasons falter and I don't

6:27

think we did.

6:28

I think you guys elevated, if anything.

6:30

Well, thank you. And yes, a lot

6:33

of your predictions were right, but not all

6:35

of them. That's right. Not all of

6:37

them. Cassian, I'm curious from you. Well,

6:41

A, I'm curious to hear how you feel about how

6:43

Dawn's story ends, but

6:45

I'm also curious like when you were

6:47

reading the final script,

6:50

what was your experience? Like what

6:53

was your takeaway?

6:54

I think from a Dawn point of

6:56

view, I remember we

6:58

had this great chat at the beginning of the season and you were like,

7:01

I just want Dawn to have the ending that we

7:03

all thought and wanted for him in season one. And

7:06

there's something really like nicely redemptive about

7:09

Dawn finally getting that, driving off into

7:11

the sunset moment that in

7:13

season one from the outset, it's just

7:15

bad news after bad news after bad news. Yeah,

7:17

yeah, yeah. And I've had a lot

7:19

of people say when they sit home and watch it that Dawn

7:22

is this like, as

7:24

you said, Jason, like romantic in some way. And

7:27

his dreams are so crushed in season one that

7:29

I think when I read the finale of season two, I was

7:32

like, oh, thanks, David. Because

7:37

I just don't trust the writers at all. I'm like, Dawn's

7:39

going to get it. He's going to get it. And

7:44

that's why I love playing him so much. I think he's so inherently

7:47

hopeful in a world that seems

7:49

so hopeless a lot of the time. I think

7:52

Cleon

7:53

is hopeful at that age. You

7:55

know what I mean? Before he's been sort of crushed

7:58

by the weight of the show.

7:59

Yeah, I think he is. I think he

8:02

is more hopeful than the others because I think he

8:04

doesn't really have the responsibility yet. And

8:06

it's such an intriguing question

8:08

to ask. It's like, where is that inflection point? When

8:11

does Dawn become day? And is

8:13

it that he hardens so that he can take on the power?

8:15

Or is it that the power itself hardens him? I don't

8:18

know the answer to that yet. But

8:19

that's kind of the joy of playing the part. Is it the lines

8:22

of blood? One of the things I love about season

8:24

two, Dawn, is he's still idealistic,

8:27

still hopeful, but there's a little bit

8:29

of strength underneath

8:31

this kind of gauzy hopefulness

8:34

that he has. Do you have a favorite version

8:36

of Dawn?

8:38

I don't know if I have a favorite because obviously I've got a bit of

8:40

a soft spot for the original Dawn.

8:44

But I think there was something really fun about turning up on set

8:46

at the beginning of this season and

8:48

saying to Alex, one of our directors and David,

8:50

like, so are we playing the same part

8:52

or are we starting again? Or are

8:55

we kind of doing both? And that's basically what we ended

8:57

up doing, which is, yes, I'm

8:59

wearing the same costume on the same sets with the same

9:01

actors. This is a very distinct person

9:04

and holds himself and feels comfortable

9:06

in his skin in a way that season one, Dawn, never would.

9:08

I think something that I certainly tried

9:11

to point towards is we

9:13

need the audience to conceivably believe that

9:15

this Dawn could end up being day, maybe not

9:17

in the near future, but for Sarah's

9:20

character to be that much of a threat, it's far

9:22

more exciting for the audience to think, well,

9:24

actually, this succession could be a lot sooner than

9:27

it would have ever been for season one, Dawn. And

9:29

actually, he could have sat on that throne. And the fact

9:31

that it's been stolen from him

9:34

is far more impactful.

9:35

It's interesting what you said about

9:38

the portrayal of Dawn this season kind of being a combination

9:40

of both because it's this really tricky tightrope

9:43

that we walk, my fellow writers and

9:45

I, with Daedon and Dusk, because

9:49

they are different characters.

9:51

But at the same time, we are aware the

9:54

audience sees him as different but

9:56

not different. Yeah. Do you

9:58

know what I mean? Yeah. want to

10:00

portray them as different characters, but also

10:03

build on the audience's awareness

10:05

of what they did. So to that end, we felt

10:07

this dawn needed to be not

10:10

quite as naive as

10:12

the previous dawn. It's a really tricky

10:15

writing, performing conundrum

10:17

that we've set upon ourselves that I've never

10:20

experienced before. Yeah, 100%.

10:22

And Jason, I think this is why David

10:25

is

10:26

such an unbelievable presence to have on set

10:28

because he is kind of our lighthouse in a lot of ways,

10:31

and he's so good at directing us

10:34

and saying, we know actually you don't need

10:36

to worry about that right now. Or really,

10:39

what is the scene about? What is the relationship

10:41

here? And as much as the show is so enormous,

10:46

what makes the show so compelling, at least from

10:48

the Klingon storyline, is what's going

10:51

on between these people. Like, at

10:53

least for me, it feels like relationship is everything in

10:55

that story. And so when we're working, yeah,

10:58

you asked me if it was overwhelming. I'm

11:01

going into a scene going, what do I want from

11:04

day? And what is Demiz I want from me? And

11:06

how are we going to navigate that? And that

11:08

to me feels like you could be on any set.

11:11

That's what it always comes down to, is what

11:13

do I want and how am I going to get it and who's in my way?

11:16

And in the Klingon household, everyone's in your way.

11:20

Cassian, so much of what

11:22

is fun about this and great about the show is

11:26

the relationship that your character,

11:28

Dawn, has with the rest

11:31

of the Imperial trio, Dan Tusk,

11:33

played by Lee Pace and Terrence Mann,

11:35

respectively. What was it like when

11:37

you first got into a room,

11:40

got on set with those two actors

11:42

and started doing scenes together? When

11:44

did that first take place? I remember when I

11:46

first arrived on Foundation, I was

11:48

cast maybe two days before and put on a plane

11:50

and everyone

11:53

had just landed in Iceland and we all

11:55

sat around this table and everyone was very quiet and then Terry

11:57

lent in and was like, hey man, sorry

11:59

we haven't met. met, like, who are you? I said, oh,

12:01

I'm, hey, I'm Cassian, like, I'm playing

12:04

Dawn, and he was like, brother Dawn? I was like, yeah. And

12:07

he stood up, and he just shouted, hug me,

12:09

brother, and gave me this huge

12:12

hug. And then ever since

12:14

then, I felt so welcomed by

12:16

him and Lee. I mean, there's such,

12:18

it's kind of like a riddle, this part. I've heard Lee say that

12:21

before, and that's definitely how I feel. It feels

12:23

both like we each have distinct ownership, but also

12:25

like collective ownership. And it's

12:28

a bit like jazz music, and you sort of learn the rules

12:30

of the Cleons, or Cleon the First,

12:32

I guess, and then we each independently break those rules

12:35

in ways that are similar, but also ways that are different. And I think

12:37

what's so fun about season two is that

12:39

we've kind of laid the groundwork, and we don't need to

12:41

be too on the nose with it with the audience. Like,

12:44

they already get that we're meant to be identical, and

12:46

we just have fun riffing with that idea. And I remember

12:49

there was a moment, I think it was you, David,

12:51

or maybe it was Alex, where we were

12:53

just on set doing scenes.

12:55

And yeah, I think you come up to us and I'm like, wait,

12:58

you guys are doing like the identical stuff in the

13:00

scene. Do you realize that? So I think it's like,

13:03

embedded into us by now. Like,

13:06

I think it's sort of just in our bones, trying to match

13:08

and trying to be distinct. What was the audition

13:10

process like, Cassian? Before

13:12

this show, I was doing a whole bunch of theater and

13:15

then starting out as an actor, it's no easy

13:17

feat. And I was, as a result,

13:19

doing ticket stubs and selling ice cream in

13:21

the interval of a theater in London. And so

13:24

I go every night and

13:26

sell my ice cream and do my tickets.

13:29

And then I got this email that was like the guy that

13:31

made Batman and Superman wants you to audition

13:33

for this thing. And I was like, really? And then I went

13:35

in and

13:37

I hadn't auditioned in a while. And so I went in and I was like,

13:39

you know what, I'm just going to go in as an American. Yeah,

13:42

we didn't know. Because let's just roll the dice. We

13:45

didn't know what was just funny now that I'm hearing you talk

13:48

in your native accent. We didn't know that

13:50

you weren't American. I just

13:52

went in and I was like, Oh, hey, guys, nice to

13:54

meet you all. Should we do the

13:56

scenes? And then did that

13:58

two scenes.

13:59

coming in and I was like, oh well, you

14:02

sent me five scenes, didn't you? And I could

14:04

see them being like, oh,

14:05

okay, we weren't probably

14:08

meant to send you those, but let's just do all of them then. And

14:10

so I did all of them. So

14:13

I was like, you know what, I've prepped them. We might as

14:15

well have a go. And then I got

14:17

called back maybe a day later

14:20

by Lucinda Sison,

14:22

who was

14:24

so unbelievably kind and generous. One

14:26

of her casting directors, I just want to say. Yeah.

14:28

I think as a young actor, you can certainly

14:30

feel like you're on a bit like a factory line. You turn up,

14:32

you get taped, you walk out of a room. And

14:34

instead, Lucinda just sat there and spoke to me for

14:37

about 40 minutes about the kind

14:39

of work I wanted to do, who I admired, where

14:42

I wanted to be in my work. And

14:44

then at the end was like,

14:46

yeah, should we just put this on tape for

14:49

the people in the States? We might

14:51

as well. As a result, I was so

14:53

free and so open and

14:56

so relaxed and ultimately so present

14:59

that I left the audition and I called my mum

15:01

and I was like,

15:03

you know what, even if I don't get this job, I

15:05

feel so valued

15:06

and I feel

15:08

so great. And then I got a call like two

15:10

days later and was on a plane, sat there with

15:12

David. It

15:14

was all within like six days, maybe. Yeah,

15:17

it was really fast, really, really fast. But that feels

15:19

like a million years ago now, doesn't it, David? I mean, that

15:21

feels like... I mean, it was four years ago. Wow.

15:24

Yeah, yeah, wow.

15:25

Well, let's talk about the episode, the

15:27

theme of which I think was something for

15:29

me like Checkmate. David, we've heard you describe

15:32

the show as a thousand year

15:34

chess match between two great men.

15:37

And here it feels as if Harry

15:40

has certainly won this round

15:43

of the game. For sure. Harry and

15:45

Dr. Seldin have seen many moves ahead of everyone

15:47

with only a few notable hiccups. Tragic

15:50

hiccups, really, when you think about Salvor dying and

15:53

all of Terminus being destroyed. But

15:55

really, an incredible checkmate

15:58

from Harry and Dr. Seldin. So

16:01

many threads come together in this episode. How

16:03

are you able to kind of keep track

16:06

of all of this throughout the

16:08

season to get here? I have no fucking

16:11

idea. I don't know.

16:15

I can't. Now

16:18

that I'm removed, now that we've finished

16:21

it and I'm watching it, I'm like, how the fuck

16:23

do we do that? I'm

16:25

being really honest. Look,

16:27

we

16:28

rewrite and we rewrite and we rewrite. I

16:31

have the best fellow writers in the world.

16:34

And we do the

16:36

large moves in the first draft

16:38

or even the second draft sometimes. Brute force them

16:40

in and they sort of work

16:43

but they sort of don't. And something

16:46

that I learned from working with James Cameron is that

16:49

he will come up with a big idea

16:52

or a big ending for a story.

16:55

And he'll say, I want to write towards

16:57

that. Like I don't know how we're going to get there,

17:00

but I have faith that we can figure

17:02

it out and make it make sense. And

17:05

so what I try to do was

17:08

invert expectations for where the characters wound

17:10

up the last season. So that's

17:13

why I felt Dawn should have a happy

17:15

ending this season. And

17:17

as horrific

17:19

as it was to kill Salver, I

17:22

felt that that also,

17:24

you can't always get the audience what

17:27

they want. And I also felt that

17:29

the interesting thing with Salver is that

17:32

we start out this season with whether or not we're living

17:35

in a deterministic universe and

17:38

whether or not Gail's visions can

17:40

change. And so

17:43

she loses this daughter that she barely begun

17:46

to embrace. But the

17:48

weird gift that her daughter gives her is

17:50

that the future can be changed, which

17:53

is also

17:54

really like a big fucking

17:56

deal.

18:01

Don't you see what this means? It

18:04

means we're not trapped. You

18:08

were right. The future can

18:10

be changed. You

18:13

can still get it back

18:15

on the right course.

18:19

I have absolute faith.

18:20

No,

18:25

no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

18:27

no, no. It's all

18:30

right.

18:57

I mean,

19:00

we were playing fair. We do talk about

19:02

it at the end of the second episode. I

19:06

don't think it's a move that comes out

19:09

of left field. So I do think

19:11

the audience will be surprised, but

19:13

if you go back and rewatch the season,

19:16

they're talking about it the whole time. It's

19:19

one of the major motivating forces

19:21

for Gail's storyline this season is, what

19:23

if Salvador died? I need to prevent that. Yeah,

19:26

yeah. So the writers, my

19:28

fellow writers did not want to do it when

19:31

we first talked about it. Liz Pong,

19:33

who was the co-writer of

19:35

the episode and a tremendous writer, she

19:38

really did not want to write that scene.

19:41

She was like, I don't think I can do it. And I said, I

19:44

will take a stab at it. So I wrote

19:46

it at those

19:48

scenes.

19:49

And I said, listen, if you

19:52

don't buy it, if

19:54

you don't think it works,

19:55

we won't do it.

19:58

And to a person,

20:00

They all said,

20:01

fuck you, it works. And

20:06

even then, we didn't let

20:08

Apple or the studio know about it until

20:10

we were halfway through shooting the scene,

20:13

basically until we had to shoot that scene. And

20:15

we had a fake script

20:18

where she didn't die. Because

20:21

I wasn't sure. We

20:24

filmed for about three

20:26

or four months before

20:29

we started to let some people,

20:31

Alex Graves was, well, Leah was the first person and

20:34

then Alex Graves, because I just wasn't

20:37

sure. I wanted us

20:39

to marinate on it for a while and think

20:41

about it. And one of the hardest

20:44

days and nights of my professional

20:46

career was when I had dinner with Leah and let her

20:48

know what was going to happen.

20:51

And I said,

20:52

read it

20:54

and let me know what you think. And we

20:56

still hadn't shown it to Skydance

20:58

or Apple. And I said

21:01

the same thing. I said, tell me honestly

21:03

whether or not you think it works. And she was like

21:06

really sad, but she said, I think it works. And

21:08

I said, okay, I guess we're going to go for it. So,

21:12

it's a weird one.

21:13

I was thinking a lot about the title of this episode,

21:15

Creation Myths, and the opening epigraph that

21:18

Gale opens with.

21:19

When I was a child, I used

21:21

to ask my mother endless questions.

21:24

What happens after we die?

21:27

Where does our energy go? And

21:30

what about the universe?

21:32

Can it die?

21:34

How was it ever born?

21:38

How could there be nothing?

21:40

And then suddenly, something.

21:44

And it started, Donna, me rewatching this, that really

21:47

she has answered those questions to

21:49

a degree. And part of that is,

21:51

can the future be changed? She realizes

21:54

now in the worst

21:56

possible way that yes, the future can be changed.

21:59

And yet Harry comes out unscathed yet

22:02

again. This guy,

22:04

I guess he is a genius. What

22:08

an amazing chess player, poker player

22:10

he is. I need to

22:12

talk about this opening sequence that comes off

22:15

almost, it feels like a mini heist

22:18

movie to watch how Harry and Gail

22:20

got away with this. Well, first of all, Alex

22:22

Greyes did a spectacular job on that opening

22:24

sequence. Because we basically

22:27

had to shoot everything,

22:30

not even twice, we had to shoot everything like three

22:32

times because we had Jared

22:34

in

22:34

the pool and then climbing

22:36

and in the woods doing all that stuff. And

22:39

then we had Gail also doing the

22:41

exact same shots in the pool

22:43

and in the woods so that we can intercut between

22:46

them. But then we also had Gail sort

22:48

of mimicking those emotions because

22:51

she wasn't physically there. She

22:53

was back in the summer palace or trying

22:56

to hide her thoughts from Salvador,

22:58

trying to hide her thoughts from Télam. And so we

23:00

kind of had to shoot all that three times. And

23:04

it was intensely complicated to

23:06

plan and there's a beautiful shot

23:08

in there that was not written that

23:10

Alex came up with where Harry

23:13

goes to get some water and he sees

23:16

his reflection in a puddle of water

23:18

and then he scoops some water up and then it's Gail. And

23:21

that's just a beautiful example of a director

23:23

kind of taking what's on

23:25

the page and visualizing it

23:27

in a way that's even more poetic than

23:30

you had anticipated. It was really

23:32

complicated shooting and really, really complicated

23:35

to edit. We spent

23:38

a full week

23:40

editing

23:41

and just shaving frames

23:43

and shaving frames and going back and very

23:46

complicated.

23:47

It's cool also that I've been

23:50

sitting here before I actually

23:52

watched the episode just wondering, okay,

23:55

how did they get out of this and to learn how they did?

23:58

And then part of it was this. for

24:00

citing of primes in order to shield their

24:02

thoughts from the mentalics. And

24:04

that you actually get a hint of that when

24:07

Salvador and Gail meet

24:09

each other in the woods, and Gail

24:11

seems so remote, and it's because she's just kind

24:13

of keep track of all these numbers. You really

24:15

played, again, in your words, played fair with the

24:17

audience here is really great. I hope we did. I

24:20

mean, and the other thing that

24:21

they do in this episode is, in episode

24:25

six,

24:26

Talim gives Gail this sort of primer

24:28

on how to be a mentalic,

24:30

right? And to ground your illusion and

24:33

do all these things. And so it really

24:35

is like a dummies guide to how to

24:38

do this. And then

24:40

everything that Harry

24:42

and Gail do in what you see

24:45

in 10, which is a flashback, is everything

24:47

that Talim taught her. So

24:50

hopefully the audience won't feel like

24:52

we've cheated them, and

24:54

that we've played fair.

25:53

opposite

26:00

this massive future ahead of

26:02

her.

26:03

Yeah, Mamet's is this great thing that I returned to a lot,

26:05

which is great story moments

26:07

are both completely surprising and utterly inevitable.

26:10

There's something about Gail's future

26:13

being so intensely impacted. There

26:15

was such a stroke of wisdom from

26:18

David, because finally the audience get

26:20

that moment.

26:21

So yeah, I'm very,

26:23

very sad to see Leah go because Leah

26:25

brought such a brilliant energy

26:27

and a vitality to the show and

26:29

is a formidable actor, I got to say, but

26:31

in the same breath when it comes to story,

26:34

I think

26:35

that will really, really pack a punch. Well,

26:37

well said. I

26:39

have to say. Thanks

26:41

David. I think if we do this

26:43

third season, you should co-host this.

26:47

But

26:48

the other thing though, I would say

26:51

is it's fucking foundation. So

26:53

like we killed off. Fucking

26:57

bad. But we killed Alfie,

26:59

gracious character off. Right?

27:02

In episode five of season one and

27:04

then did a scene with him. Yeah. In

27:06

season two. Yeah. And so

27:11

it's not impossible that

27:13

we'll see Salver again,

27:15

even without

27:17

trickery. So that's one of the things

27:20

that I enjoy about the show

27:22

is that we go back and show you

27:24

scenes that reframe the context

27:27

of certain things.

27:28

Okay.

27:30

Let's break down where we are

27:32

essentially in this story. Empire

27:36

seems very, very creaky now. In

27:39

addition to the threat from

27:41

foundation and Dr. Seldin

27:44

and Harry Seldin, now there seems

27:46

as if there could be a nascent

27:50

counter faction brewing with Dawn

27:52

and Sarath and perhaps backed by the

27:54

Cloud Dominion. That and

27:57

Empire also doesn't.

27:59

I mean, and this is a biggie.

28:02

It doesn't have access to the spacers anymore. Yeah.

28:04

So what that means

28:06

is that Empire

28:08

won't be able to just jump, you

28:11

know, fold space willy-nilly. So they've

28:13

really been kind of crippled.

28:15

And conversely, even though Foundation's

28:18

fleet is small, Foundation can

28:21

jump these whisperships to

28:23

Trantor and back. And so

28:26

Empire's really back on its heels.

28:28

Okay, let's talk about Day for a moment. I

28:32

began to think about the corruption of the Genenic

28:34

Empire as essentially like, you

28:37

know, three kind of bodies

28:39

orbiting each other, slowly coming out of

28:41

alignment. And I think you really see that with Day,

28:44

who is in his full grandiosity

28:46

here after what seems to be truly

28:49

a victory. His aura,

28:52

though, is off. Why does he never put his aura

28:54

back on? Is he just that arrogant

28:56

in that moment, full victory? Oh,

28:59

yeah. Everything is destroyed. Yeah. Well,

29:01

the question is whether or not the aura would have saved him in space.

29:03

I don't think it would have. Would it have saved him

29:06

from decompression?

29:08

Maybe? But

29:11

not the lack of oxygen. So

29:13

I'm not sure that that would have made a difference

29:16

in the end anyway. And

29:18

I do think if he had paused

29:20

to get his aura

29:22

when he left the vault, he probably

29:25

would have turned it off when he was fighting Hobart

29:27

anyway. Because I just think he's so fucking

29:30

arrogant. I agree. He thinks he's completely

29:32

owned them. He's just like, I destroyed

29:34

the planet. I'm just

29:36

on the top of my game. I'm awesome. You

29:39

know? And he's completely wrong.

29:41

And that's due to the spacers and their deal

29:44

with Harry. Yeah.

29:46

Something's wrong with the jump sequence. What? What's

29:49

wrong? What's happening? Each

29:52

ship is jumping into the space occupied by its

29:54

neighbor, a chain reaction that will consume

29:56

the entire fleet. Stop it. Jump

29:58

us to safety. I cannot. Space

30:02

once folded stays folded.

30:04

Then prepare a lifeboat for me. The command

30:07

sequence also disabled all of the landing bays

30:09

and the launch tubes. But your spaces

30:12

will also die. It's suicide.

30:14

A small price to pay for my people's

30:16

freedom. Talk about the breadcrumbs,

30:19

the little things you laid here, because I felt like this

30:21

is the one thing I felt like I got right.

30:24

Um, sort of. You got a couple of things right.

30:26

You know, it's set up in

30:29

episode three, right? You see

30:31

Hobart trying to pull a con. So

30:33

you think

30:34

when Harry talks to him, you know,

30:36

we were saying to the writers like he's got to try to pull

30:39

a con. Like he's, he's good at being

30:41

a con man. So Harry, or

30:43

Dr. Seldin rather has to employ him to be

30:46

a con man

30:47

and to play this shell game with the spacers.

30:50

But the other thing that's set up in episode three is

30:52

the fact that Bell is

30:54

mining for this material,

30:57

the spacers require

30:59

for their diet. That's

31:01

the choke chain that Empire uses

31:04

to keep the spacers in check, because

31:06

that's how they're able to navigate. And

31:08

so it's not

31:10

by happenstance that those Hobart's

31:12

con, initial con, and

31:15

this material that Bell is mining

31:17

are introduced in the same episode. We

31:20

talked about Salvador's death, how it affected your

31:23

team, the show. Tell

31:25

us about the decision to have, have Bell and Hobart

31:27

go down with the ship drinking the worst

31:29

wine in the galaxy. You know,

31:32

I

31:32

was pretty sure early on that I wanted

31:35

them to do that and

31:38

share the wine. And it's, it's

31:40

tough because I, I really

31:43

like both of those characters. I

31:45

liked them in the books. And then

31:47

I liked our versions of them in the show and I

31:49

adore those actors. And

31:51

so, you know, I toyed

31:53

with, oh, you know, could

31:56

we have contrived

31:57

to have certainly at least

31:59

hobo survive, you know, get in that

32:02

cleaning module, it seems like if they

32:04

really squished in with, you know, constant,

32:06

they could have fit. And I, it, it,

32:08

that was just one of those things where it's like, as

32:11

a sort of viewer slash person,

32:13

it just, it felt

32:16

poetic and funny. And

32:19

it's, it's, I find that scene heartbreaking

32:21

though. There's a moment where there,

32:23

you know, I think the audience isn't quite,

32:25

my perception is the audience isn't quite sure whether or not we're

32:28

actually going to do it, right? That's

32:30

how I felt. And, and

32:32

there's this beautiful moment, I remember

32:34

seeing the take where

32:36

Hobart sort of glances off camera

32:39

at the lights that are flashing, and

32:42

you see both of

32:44

the characters are trying to be brave, but Hobart's

32:46

kind of getting distracted and,

32:49

and just looking out there and just, fuck, I'm gonna

32:51

die. Like this is the guy who

32:54

keeps escaping death, like Houdini, you

32:56

see this moment on his face where he realizes he's

32:58

gonna die. And Nancy and Belle says, hey,

33:01

hey, and redirects his attention back to him.

33:03

And you know, what was that crazy creature, you

33:05

know, that horrible beast. And it's

33:07

such a generous little moment that Belle does. And

33:10

he does distract him

33:12

from his impending death. And I, it just kills

33:14

me every time I see that.

33:21

What was the name of that

33:25

horrifying creature on your ship? Who,

33:28

Becky? Yeah. This

33:31

wine tastes like Becky's asshole. Yeah,

33:38

Becky's asshole. You

33:40

know, and then just undercutting it with just

33:42

the most ridiculous toast of all time,

33:45

which is funny, but also heartbreaking. I

33:47

don't know, I'm

33:50

just really proud of Alice Graves

33:52

who directed that and just

33:55

everyone. It's

33:57

exactly the kind of

33:59

being for a character that I like

34:02

where it's just funny but heartbreaking

34:04

at the same time and bittersweet and all

34:06

the things that the shows

34:08

that I really admire, that's what

34:11

we strive for. And I just think we would have been

34:13

cheating the audience if Hober

34:15

had escaped. I think his journey

34:17

was to be the fool who

34:21

then does the right thing at the end and

34:23

makes this grand sacrifice. And

34:25

because of that pierced his empire's hide by

34:29

robbing them of the spacers.

34:31

The vault, how? How

34:34

big is it? Clearly we're just scratching

34:36

the surface of the capabilities of the vault. But

34:39

how did it achieve saving everyone

34:42

on Terminus? And I would assume

34:44

there's an upper limit to how big it can

34:46

get.

34:47

If you go back to the

34:49

opening of episode 10 of season

34:52

one, we did show the vault in space because

34:55

it had to get from the deliverance to

34:57

Terminus in the first place. So

34:59

it is clearly capable of

35:02

moving through space, of having

35:04

some kind of propulsion and whatnot

35:07

and containing some kind of environment within

35:09

it. Is there an upper limit to it? There

35:12

is an upper limit to it. But

35:15

I think the inside of it is at

35:17

least as big as Manhattan.

35:20

Possibly even as big

35:22

as the entire planet of Terminus. I do

35:24

know that if we ever get to the

35:27

end that I have

35:29

in my head for how the show

35:32

ends,

35:34

we will have to calculate

35:36

the upper limit of it.

35:38

Ah, interesting. It

35:41

is something I've thought about

35:43

and is sort of a hanging physics

35:46

related question. Thinking

35:48

of this chess game, on paper I think you could

35:50

say that Demarzel won. She

35:53

put down this kind of nascent rebellion.

35:57

She has swept away

35:59

the karate. corrupted clions, broken

36:02

out, a few fresh ones. But

36:04

what a tortured existence that she

36:07

lives when you really understand what

36:09

she's doing with and has been for

36:11

all these years. On paper, she fulfilled

36:14

her program. That's a better way

36:16

to say it. Right. Right.

36:19

Better way of saying it. And it's keeping this ridiculous

36:22

imperial confection going, you know? But

36:26

yeah, she lives this horrendous

36:28

existence. Cassian, talk about your

36:31

relationship, your character's relationship

36:33

with Demerzel, played by the wonderful Laura

36:35

Bieran. Because it, like

36:38

your character, really seems to have

36:40

evolved a lot by season two. Hugely,

36:42

yeah. And I think in season two, you

36:45

see

36:46

so much more of that yearning

36:48

in

36:48

Demerzel

36:49

for connection.

36:51

Sometimes she utilizes that to her benefit

36:53

in order to control the clions, which I guess is more programming

36:56

oriented. But I think particularly when

36:58

it comes to her relationship with Dawn,

37:00

there is something maternal there. And yeah, she

37:03

is this robot who ultimately

37:05

will rear these children, then sleep

37:07

with them, and then basically nanny

37:10

them as they become these adult babies. But

37:12

I do think there's a real tragedy, particularly in this episode,

37:15

that

37:16

she doesn't like losing her Dorns. Yeah.

37:19

And

37:19

there's something about them that

37:22

reminds her of the

37:24

love that we see in Ep 9 between Demerzel

37:28

and Cleon I. And so I think,

37:32

weirdly, there's something about Dawn that

37:34

is strangely nostalgic

37:37

for Demerzel. There's something about Dawn that

37:39

roots her in what

37:41

originally gave her that spark

37:43

to fall in love with Cleon I. And

37:46

so I think that the vision at the end of this episode is really,

37:48

really tragic for her. And

37:50

Lara does such a great job of walking

37:52

that tightrope between

37:55

playing something that's entirely automated,

37:57

something that is inherently so soulful.

38:00

I also think that they're

38:03

all prisoners. Yeah. Right? Everyone

38:06

after Cleon the First is a prisoner. And yes, I think there's

38:08

heartbreak, but I also think there's a part of her that's

38:10

glad that this Don managed

38:13

to escape. Yeah. Yeah. She

38:15

couldn't escape, but he did. Yeah.

38:17

I know your true feelings are

38:20

always hard to ascertain,

38:22

but I do hope you're happy for me.

38:25

And I hope you find happiness too, Dempisaille.

38:30

With all my heart,

38:32

you were good to me.

38:36

The closest thing to a mother I ever had. I

38:40

know your programs be there, but

38:42

I'd like to believe you would have been that way. Even

38:47

without it.

38:49

There's so much baked into that

38:51

phone call, which is really testament to our writers,

38:54

but I think there's an element of jealousy

38:57

at the end of that phone call, particularly after what

38:59

we see in Ep 9. There's

39:02

jealousy, but there's also this gift. It's like, oh, I wish

39:05

I could escape like you are, but

39:07

in the same breath, I'm

39:10

so grateful that someone can.

39:12

Yeah. Because I think a lot of the time she must look at the Cleons

39:14

and go, well, none of you want to be here either.

39:16

I don't think any of us want to be here. I think we're all stuck.

39:19

Yeah. It's like Harry and

39:21

the Prime Radiant in Ep 1. That's sort

39:23

of

39:24

the internal life of these people living in this

39:26

palace the whole time.

39:28

But I'm also interested in pursuing

39:31

the hanging chad of

39:33

Don and Sarah's child. Yes.

39:37

Yeah. So I hope we get

39:39

to that as well, because we have

39:41

some really interesting ideas for when

39:44

that other shoe drops a couple centuries

39:46

later.

39:47

Don and Sarah's new

39:49

baby, is this the

39:52

final nail in the coffin of the genetic dynasty?

39:55

Will this try the existence of this

39:57

child be the thing that finally ... tears

40:00

the genetic dynasty apart?

40:03

I think the answer would be possibly.

40:07

And then what's not to say that that child

40:10

or the descendant of that child

40:13

could also show up after the genetic

40:15

dynasty is empire has fallen.

40:17

Look, if we have our way that that descendant

40:20

will return, but

40:22

it may not be before empire falls.

40:25

Cassian as the only

40:28

surviving member of this round

40:30

of imperial trio. I wonder,

40:33

you know, the

40:35

imperial fleet is in ruins. Demarzel

40:37

is in full janitor mode. But

40:41

now you have Dawn cut loose

40:43

from the tethers of empire. How do you feel

40:46

like he's going to respond to that? Because

40:49

on one hand he has yearned for freedom

40:51

as long as we've known him. At the

40:53

same time, he's never truly experienced it. How

40:56

do you think he's going to do it? I always

40:58

find there to be such like

41:01

an interesting and funny

41:03

irony whenever the Cleon stand on public stages

41:06

and say respect and enjoy the peace.

41:08

Because there is no peace at all. And

41:11

I think

41:11

there's something about

41:13

the way that Dawn ends this season. I

41:15

just hope for that he finds peace. I feel like there's

41:17

so much in a turmoil with these Cleons. I

41:20

feel like they're so unhappy and I feel

41:22

like so much of them just wants to be

41:25

like held and told they're going to be okay. And

41:28

that's really where Demarzel this season

41:30

has learned that and uses it to her benefit.

41:33

But yeah, I hope he finds peace.

41:35

I think that's what I hope. Who

41:37

knows? Listen, he'll probably go to another

41:40

planet and become like a massively tyrannical

41:42

leader again. But

41:44

I think that's the question of the show, isn't it? Are

41:47

these traits genetically embedded

41:49

and is everything deterministic or do we

41:51

have some agency in how we turn out? And

41:55

I quite like the fact that the show asks that question

41:57

but doesn't answer it.

41:59

We'll see. What do you think, David?

42:02

Well, I'm not going to tell you. It looks not on

42:04

this podcast. Other

42:07

than if we get there to expect the unexpected.

42:10

Let's talk about Demarzel and the Prime Radiant. Okay, she

42:12

has the Prime Radiant, which is a shock.

42:15

And we've seen that the Prime Radiant has

42:18

acted this season as a sort

42:20

of listening device. Maybe. Or

42:22

a seldom, maybe. Yeah. How

42:25

did Demarzel get her hands on the Prime Radiant?

42:28

You mean physically? Yeah. How did it... It

42:31

was physically in the vault. She just

42:33

picked it up and left. Yeah. Wow.

42:36

Brazen. Tell us about the decision

42:39

to give the

42:42

Radiant to Demarzel.

42:44

Well, that's one of those examples of writing towards

42:46

something, right? So I think I

42:48

had that idea pretty late in the

42:50

game, like when we were writing Episode 9.

42:53

And

42:55

I just thought it would be unexpected.

42:57

Yeah, it was. Right? It really was. You

42:59

know? And just

43:02

like a baller move on Seldin's part,

43:04

we've explained that it's a quantum

43:06

device that essentially exists in the state

43:08

of super positions. It can effectively

43:11

be in two places at once. You can think of it in

43:13

that way. And so if

43:16

Gail has the

43:18

Prime Radiant, Gail or Harry, on

43:20

Ignis, a Prime Radiant, or an aspect

43:22

of the Prime Radiant, that could allow them

43:25

to spy on

43:27

Seldin in the

43:29

vault. But once Seldin realizes

43:31

that he's the left hand and not the right hand, and

43:34

that there's another foundation, one

43:37

could surmise

43:39

that Seldin could use

43:42

this to spy on Demarzel,

43:44

an empire, in the future, which

43:47

could be valuable. Can

43:49

I tell you my theory? My control had theory.

43:52

She's the only thing holding this empire

43:54

together, really. And I think,

43:57

what's the thing that she wants more than anything else,

43:59

I think, for you. I

44:01

think with the prime rating, she could try for a factory

44:04

reset. It's a supercomputer. She could

44:06

try and figure out if that thing could

44:08

set her free somehow. I

44:11

think that that is a

44:15

definitely plausible, viable

44:18

idea, which I'm not going to confirm more

44:20

than I am. But I will say this. There's

44:24

another aspect to it too that

44:28

beyond even those two things that we talked about,

44:31

that's interesting.

44:35

And finally, the Mule at the end of this episode

44:37

seems truly

44:39

scared, which is such

44:41

an amazing cliffhanger. Flipping the script.

44:45

Yeah. Of Gale. Yeah.

44:50

I

44:50

have to find

44:53

Gay Dawn. And

44:57

what he finds me.

45:03

I have to destroy her.

45:06

It's interesting. That scene was

45:08

a scene that I

45:11

wrote very,

45:12

very late in the game. I mean, we were

45:14

well into shooting the season and

45:17

had this idea for that scene. And

45:20

I just thought it would be really interesting to

45:22

just, you know, it'd be like, I don't

45:25

know. I'm going back to like the early MCU

45:27

days of like, you know, showing Thanos

45:29

early on, but then showing Thanos like all

45:32

doubtful, you know, or something like that.

45:34

Every time in the past people wanted to adapt

45:37

foundation, they always wanted

45:39

to start with the Mule. And I just felt in

45:41

my bones. I said to Apple when we pitched

45:43

it, you're not going to get the Mule until

45:46

season three. And then I sort of trickily

45:48

found a way to

45:50

preview the Mule in season two.

45:53

And

45:54

one of the reasons why I wanted

45:56

to go with Apple is because everyone else

45:58

wanted to have the Mule in the first season and

46:00

Apple was willing to wait. So

46:04

yes, it seems like Empire's

46:06

on its heels and Foundation is ascendant

46:09

and and then this mule guy is going

46:11

to show up and just completely put

46:14

everything in a blender. And what's exciting about

46:16

that is it creates

46:18

for the possibility for some unexpected

46:22

alliances. Hmm. Is

46:24

the mule alive during the

46:26

events of season two? Is he witnessing the

46:28

things going on? No.

46:33

So you're like, how does that work? Yeah. Well,

46:37

all right. Well, David, it's our last

46:39

game of building the foundation. The

46:52

foundation is very

46:54

solid right now. But it's

46:56

often space floating off to who knows where on,

46:58

you know, it's on Ignis, it's maybe on Una's world, but

47:00

still, we must build the foundation

47:02

together. Are you ready? Yes. Cassian,

47:05

to let you know, in every episode of the podcast, we play

47:08

a light speed round of questions

47:10

called building the foundation. I

47:12

know Jason, I'm a fan. I'm a fan. Wonderful.

47:15

He's listened to all of these. Please

47:17

join in when the when the spirit moves. Okay.

47:21

Do you think Dawn

47:22

ever has to hide anything from dusk, you

47:24

know, like a like a teen from

47:26

his grandfather, like his excursion

47:29

to the Gossamer court? Or are they really the same

47:31

person? They don't hide any of the things that they

47:33

do from each other.

47:34

I feel like after day

47:36

breaks the collective deal between the

47:39

three of them,

47:40

as much as they're working together, when

47:42

it comes down to it, it's every man for themselves.

47:44

David, what is the is

47:47

there a name for the spacer scales

47:49

that were embedded in Hobart's arm?

47:52

No.

47:52

Yeah, what did they do? How did they work? I

47:55

have no idea. Okay.

47:59

I'm not even trying to bullshit

48:02

you. I love

48:04

that.

48:05

Is there another foundation?

48:08

Like a third foundation? Like a third foundation. Why

48:11

do you think that? I mean, what is Kale

48:13

doing? Oh, interesting.

48:15

You know. Well, I will say this. There

48:19

is another faction. Mm. Okay.

48:22

I like it. That's kind of been laying, hiding

48:24

in plain sight from the beginning. Okay.

48:28

Now, fine. Thank you very much. I mentioned

48:30

Kale as part of my clearly

48:33

not correct theory that there might be a third foundation

48:35

out there, which leads us to

48:38

the enduring mystery of Harry's body.

48:42

How did it get his body back?

48:45

If we get to the second

48:48

or third episode of season

48:51

four, you

48:53

will learn that answer. Wow.

48:57

Who was it that Kale and Harry talked

49:00

to? I can't tell you that. Gentlemen,

49:07

you have to choose one form of immortality,

49:11

which would you prefer? Harry's, Telums,

49:13

or Empires? Only one is truly

49:16

evil. Yeah,

49:19

but they're all awful. Yeah.

49:23

I don't think

49:25

I'd want to be a digitized

49:27

consciousness. I mean, I guess

49:29

if I didn't care about morality, it

49:32

would be Telums, right?

49:35

And I don't think I'd want to be just a clone

49:38

with no agency. Yeah. If I didn't care

49:40

about stealing a body, I would go for Telum.

49:42

I don't know. What about you? I

49:44

think, obviously, I'm biased, but

49:46

I think there's something about the illusion of the fact you're

49:48

your own person. There's at least something. Oh, okay. There's

49:52

something about the fact that you like, at

49:54

least I can pretend that maybe I'm different. So

49:58

maybe the clones.

49:59

The other two seem pretty bleak to me. They're

50:02

all bleak. They're all awful. We just

50:04

really... Yeah, yeah, yeah. What a good question

50:06

because it's like we offer by season two

50:09

three forms of immortality and they're

50:11

all awful. They're all terrible. Yeah.

50:15

Well, gentlemen, thanks for joining us, David and

50:17

Cassie, and it's been a wonderful journey this season.

50:20

Rousing season finale. Thanks

50:22

so much for joining us. Thanks very much. It's

50:25

a pleasure to be here as always. Wonderful

50:28

wrap up. And I cannot wait for season

50:30

three. I got to find out how we got that body.

50:33

It looks like we may get the opportunity

50:36

to delve into that now, which is

50:38

cool. And thanks to all

50:40

the listeners out there listening to Foundation, the

50:42

official podcast. Be sure to follow on Apple Podcast,

50:44

get the next episode in your feed and watch

50:46

Foundation on Apple TV Plus, where available.

50:49

This is an Apple TV Plus podcast produced by Pineapple

50:51

Street Studios. Our executive producers

50:54

at Pineapple are Gabriel Lewis and Barry

50:56

Finkel. Our producers are Ahmed Ali Akbar

50:58

and Ben Goldberg. Our managing producer

51:01

is Bria Mariette. Darby Maloney

51:03

is our editor, Engineering and Mixing by

51:05

Hannes Brown. Music by Carly Bond

51:07

with additional music provided by Apple. Very

51:10

special thanks to Madison Perna and

51:12

I'm Jason Gazzepcion. Thanks so much for listening.

51:15

Close

51:17

your eyes. Listen to my words.

51:22

And dream.