0:01

Hello and welcome to Foundation, the official podcast

0:03

from Apple TV+. I'm your host,

0:05

Jason Concepcion, and this is your guide

0:07

to the galaxy. From Trantor to Terminus

0:10

and hundreds of millions of other worlds, space

0:12

is a big place. We aim to make it smaller and brighter

0:14

and add some context to everything you see on the

0:16

show. Each week I'm recapping and breaking

0:18

apart every episode of Season 2 with Foundation

0:21

showrunner and executive producer David

0:23

Escoyer. David?

0:24

Hello, Episode 8.

0:27

The title of this episode is The Last

0:29

Empress, and we're joined by the director of this

0:31

episode, Roxanne Dawson.

0:33

Hi, it's good to be here. It's great to have you.

0:36

Quick recap, okay? This episode was

0:38

written by Liz Pong and Adi Roy Manis

0:41

and Bob Ultra. We started on

0:43

Ignis,

0:44

where Telem is trapped Gale and

0:46

Salvor in mental prisons

0:49

that are directly attuned to

0:51

whatever the frequency their mind resonates

0:54

on. There's

0:54

something you really don't want me to see. Salvor

0:57

has discovered the missing prime radiant, hiding

0:59

as a paperweight or a dish

1:02

of some kind. A trivet. A

1:04

trivet. A trivet. As

1:06

a trivet. And she realizes, aha, this is

1:08

my way out. My mind sort of snuck in

1:10

through the back door. She uses it to

1:12

quantum project into the vault on

1:14

Terminus, and Dr.

1:17

Selden's mind is absolutely blown. A

1:19

left hand blissfully unaware of what the right hand

1:22

is doing. Fuck! I'm the

1:24

left hand. So, he teaches her how to use math

1:26

to escape from the mental prison,

1:28

and she returns the favor by telling him the name

1:30

of Hober Mallow. Left hand doesn't get

1:33

to put its thumb on the scale. What's the point

1:35

in having a thumb? Meanwhile, in Gale's

1:38

prison, Telem reveals that she

1:40

has been

1:40

jumping between bodies for centuries

1:43

and guess whose body is next. You can't fight

1:45

me anymore, Gale. The tuning plates

1:48

are aligning us. On

1:50

Trantaur, Rue is doing

1:52

some arguably irresponsible

1:54

movemaking, burgling Demarzel's quarters,

1:57

telling Dusk that she can get

1:59

her memory back.

1:59

and then she remembers everything from their last

2:02

dalliance together. I thought we trusted one

2:04

another. No, you thought

2:06

I trusted you. Soon they both

2:08

realize that Dusk has some

2:11

sort of pre-programmed response teed

2:13

up for whenever the subject of Demorzel

2:16

comes up. She will always be here. That

2:19

she always has been. Rue and Dusk

2:21

find a hidden doorway in the mural of souls,

2:24

but before they could really look into

2:26

it further, they have to go off to the state

2:28

execution of Polly and Constant. Day

2:31

is orchestrating the execution like a product

2:33

launch, and he's streaming it broadband across

2:35

the galaxy. They have the gall

2:38

to send their envoys here, willing

2:41

vessels of Seldin's insolence.

2:44

But before the heads can roll,

2:46

there's an explosion. As a whispership jumps

2:49

into view, it's Hobermallo. He's here. The

2:51

heading's being canceled. He's

2:53

able to save Constant.

2:54

We lose Becky in the process. RIP

2:57

Becky. Polly gets left behind. Day

2:59

is furious about everything that just happened. This is an act

3:01

of war. Surely he then makes the questionable decision

3:04

to head to Terminus and confront the Foundation. That

3:07

planet belongs to us. I'm

3:09

going. Dusk and Rue return

3:11

to the hidden doorway in the mural and discover an old prison

3:13

chamber where they're greeted by the image of Cleon

3:16

the First. You were looking for answers. I

3:18

think we may find them here. From the spirit

3:21

rising, Hober and Constant, take

3:23

advantage

3:23

of some downtime to have sex. Then

3:26

take off your trousers. Yeah. Okay. But

3:28

they're soon captured by Belrios in the Imperial

3:30

fleet. Great timing.

3:32

And in our last scene, while Day heads to Terminus,

3:34

Dawn and Dusk are both realizing that Demarzel

3:37

is Cleon the First's, quote, forever

3:39

empress. Demarzel is Cleon's

3:41

only true heir.

3:43

Whoa! I just can't believe

3:45

that's all one episode. No, I know. Every

3:47

time. I know. It's wild. I

3:51

can't wait to talk more about how these

3:53

events are intersecting. But first,

3:55

Roxanne, let's introduce you to folks. How

3:57

did you become involved with the show? You also

3:59

directed...

3:59

some episodes in season one and another

4:02

one this season. How did you come

4:04

to be part of the Foundation crew?

4:07

Really, I'm a bit of an outsider.

4:09

I mean, I got the script

4:11

and I went, holy moly, this is amazing.

4:14

I just really fell in love with what the script was saying

4:16

and the

4:17

philosophical bends and the questions

4:20

and the probing into human nature

4:22

and where it can lead you. Just all of those things really

4:25

spoke to me. I said, I want to be a part of this, and

4:27

I'm very grateful that I have been.

4:29

Roxanne ended up directing the

4:31

biggest episodes in season one, eight,

4:34

nine, just in terms of scope. Then

4:36

in season two, eight, and definitely

4:39

nine are the biggest in terms

4:41

of scope. It's funny that you end up getting

4:44

saddled with these just massive things

4:46

that frankly, like the

4:49

execution product launch one that you

4:52

did, that you directed masterfully and we

4:55

can talk about that in the Canary Islands. I

4:57

just remember I was on set for a couple

5:00

of those days and just going, thank

5:02

God I'm not directing this. Thank God I'm not directing

5:04

because it's just so complicated.

5:06

Let's talk about that because it feels as if that

5:08

must be a tremendous undertaking to not

5:11

just the specific scene you're talking about,

5:13

but the fact that you're shooting in two

5:15

locations, in two

5:16

countries. How does this

5:18

work logistically? I mean, logistically,

5:21

it's a bit of a nightmare actually.

5:24

The fact that we can all make it work is

5:26

a testament to everybody working on the show,

5:28

to be shooting parts of it in Spain

5:30

and on the different islands and then in

5:33

Prague. But that's the thing that also

5:35

is part of giving the show scope

5:37

to get so many different kinds of locations,

5:40

different kinds of architecture. You

5:42

really can sense that the show is rooted

5:45

in a kind of history

5:46

and the backdrops for

5:49

these scenes are amazing. One

5:51

of the things that I also love about working with

5:53

Roxanne is sometimes I've

5:55

had the experience with other directors where

5:58

there's like a key moment. That's

6:00

just like where you really needed a close-up

6:03

or a push-in on this key moment. I

6:05

think because you've directed so much, but also

6:07

because you've acted,

6:08

there's never a moment that's

6:10

missing. It's like the camera always pushes

6:13

in at exactly the right time. There's always

6:15

the exact right close-up. You just have

6:18

such a great sense of story

6:20

and where to put the camera in

6:23

order to enhance that story.

6:25

Well, thank you. That's so sweet. It's

6:30

interesting because I think I began in the theater and

6:32

I began as an actor in the theater working with playwrights.

6:34

One of the things I loved was just

6:37

working hand in hand with the

6:39

playwrights and really discussing what

6:41

was happening in every moment. I

6:43

think ultimately that's our job as a director's

6:45

story. I wonder if you

6:47

could, we heard David mention a little

6:49

bit of your background, your

6:52

long-time director, very storied, started

6:54

as an actor. You're in 170 or

6:57

something episodes of Star Trek Voyager, which is

6:59

an incredible number. Now you're working

7:01

on Foundation, which is like 10 mini

7:04

movies per season. Do you ever

7:06

reflect on the changes in television

7:09

that have happened over the course

7:11

of your career?

7:11

Oh, massively. Even the seven

7:14

years that I was on Voyager, technology

7:16

was changing right in front of us. I

7:18

was very much aware of it when we started

7:21

Star Trek Voyager. We would walk around

7:23

with these things called PADDs

7:25

and we would talk to people and see pictures of people

7:28

like we do on FaceTime now. That

7:30

didn't exist at the time. That was future

7:33

technology. I still remember one

7:35

of the last weeks we were working together, all the actors sitting

7:37

around a table, and we had our PADDs

7:40

and we were doing all this stuff. Then somebody

7:42

says, cut, and everybody puts their PADDs

7:45

down and picks up their little iPhones.

7:48

That didn't exist when Star

7:50

Trek Voyager started. It was

7:52

just so weird to look around the table and say, oh my

7:55

God, we're actually living this

7:57

crazy technology boom.

7:59

right in the middle of it and I can feel it.

8:02

Well, let's dive into the episode. It strikes

8:04

me that the theme of this episode to me

8:06

was really acts of war. This is the

8:08

opening salvos of the hot war

8:11

between foundation and empire. And we start

8:13

with Rue poking around in Demorzel's

8:15

quarters. I mean, I would imagine this

8:17

is a reckless move by Rue.

8:20

What is Rue thinking here?

8:21

It's interesting that Rue warns Sarath

8:24

about being careful and that Rue takes

8:26

certain risks herself. I

8:29

think that she believes that her

8:31

relationship with Dusk

8:34

is a kind of shield and in other words,

8:36

she can get away with more than one

8:38

would think and that she feels

8:41

that she is more in control. Whereas Sarath

8:43

feels impulsive and is, you know, running after

8:46

love and this and that, Rue

8:48

has a very, or she feels, she's

8:50

got her head screwed on right. She'll be the victor.

8:53

Demorzel is the closest

8:56

empire has to family. Where

9:00

did she come from, Dusk? She

9:03

will always be here. That she

9:05

always has been. The time

9:08

for ambiguity has passed, old

9:10

friend. Demorzel

9:13

is a robot, the last

9:15

surviving robot in the galaxy. And

9:17

yet she sits

9:19

as handmade into empire. What

9:22

is her real purpose? We

9:25

spent some more time in Demorzel's quarters.

9:27

Tell us about bringing a robot's personal

9:30

quarters to life. What does she do in there in

9:32

her downtown?

9:35

I mean, we established it in season

9:37

one and like there's

9:39

a harp in there. That's right. Which

9:42

you use. Yes. Because

9:44

props just found this old harp and we thought, oh, that's

9:47

cool. But like, why does Demorzel have harp in there? But

9:49

it's also interesting that she doesn't have, there

9:51

is no bed in there.

9:53

And there isn't even like

9:56

a stand or a frame that she would like.

9:58

I imagine she just goes.

9:59

in there and she sits in front of a vanity with

10:02

perfect posture and goes

10:04

to sleep or whatever robot sleep is. Or maybe she never

10:07

does. Maybe she never does. Exactly.

10:09

But I also love the idea that it's

10:12

a robot, so she doesn't need a vanity. She

10:14

needs to fix herself sometimes, but she doesn't necessarily

10:16

need to fix herself in this feminine way.

10:18

In

10:19

the back of my mind, I always thought the reason

10:21

why they did that was because it was a

10:24

way of introducing young kleons

10:26

to this sort of maternal

10:29

aspect of her being

10:31

a robot and getting them comfortable

10:33

with her being a robot. She didn't have

10:35

to have all these pretty tools and a vanity, but

10:38

that was part of the way that they sort of indoctrinate

10:40

the kleons. That was my

10:42

reasoning.

10:43

You mentioned the execution

10:46

sequence or attempted execution sequence

10:48

and how complicated it was. What was it about

10:50

that scene that made it so difficult to

10:53

put together?

10:54

Well, we had to connect with a lot of people

10:57

that would be affected by

10:59

the execution. From back

11:01

home, observing it live,

11:04

the reason that it was done live, I mean, has to do

11:06

with days, obviously, his ego and

11:08

his needing to send a message out. I

11:10

think every action says something about the characters,

11:13

even Polly there, when he realizes,

11:15

when he feels that he got constant into

11:18

the situation and he says, I'm sorry. And

11:20

I think it's interesting, they never have a chance

11:22

during the execution to feel betrayed by

11:25

Harry, but yet he did betray

11:27

them. He sent them into the situation where this was

11:29

most assuredly going to be the thing

11:31

that

11:32

happened. So there are just so

11:35

many levels. And on top of that, there was a grand

11:37

execution. So I think it's making

11:39

sure that that grand execution

11:42

for show also has all of the

11:44

other levels and why it's reaching

11:47

certain people in certain ways and affecting

11:49

how they in turn will respond

11:52

and further the story.

11:53

And if you think about it, just on

11:55

the execution veranda,

11:58

there's at least 10 characters. that

12:00

you have to get like mediums and close-ups

12:03

on, and various coverage

12:05

and eye lines on. And then you've got at least 15

12:07

people that you're

12:09

intercutting throughout all

12:12

of this. And that's just a lot. And

12:14

then you've got explosions and stunts

12:16

and wire pulls. And then you've got

12:18

a digital creature running around that isn't really

12:21

there.

12:22

And a whispership that sends

12:24

a bomb through the crowd and bodies

12:26

flying. But that was so much fun,

12:28

actually.

12:29

We filmed this at the Opera

12:31

House in Tenerife, which is

12:33

beautiful. The ocean is actually right out

12:35

there, but in visual effects, we made it look

12:38

like it was a couple of thousand feet in the air.

12:40

And I have to say, at first, I did not see

12:42

the advantage to shooting there. It felt

12:44

like one big parking lot to me. And I just

12:47

couldn't see it. And I think we began

12:49

then to construct the set and then began

12:51

to give it shape. And slowly,

12:53

I began to say, yeah, this is

12:56

the place that it should be. And then imagining it with

12:58

visual effects and everything. But at first, it felt

13:00

very open and like there nowhere to

13:02

hide. You know what I mean? It was just,

13:04

it's very interesting progression.

13:06

The action scene that interrupts

13:08

the execution is quite exciting.

13:11

How do you plan for something like

13:13

that coming at the tail end of this

13:16

already extensive and as you mentioned, complicated

13:18

scene? How do you block it out? How do you get ready for something

13:20

like that?

13:21

Yeah, I mean, as you know, it's storyboarding.

13:23

And previs.

13:24

But also, yeah, it's just sitting down with everybody

13:26

involved and realizing the correct

13:29

order in which to shoot. And a lot of times,

13:31

we also were dealing with a very open space

13:34

and we were chasing the sun. So the sun

13:36

was a very important factor in terms of how

13:38

we shot everybody and knowing we were shooting

13:40

certain people in the morning and could only deal with this in the

13:42

afternoon and constantly searching

13:44

for the sun to be in the right place as we really

13:47

did have no protection there. So that

13:49

was the challenge. When

13:50

you do a big scene like that, it's almost like

13:52

this battle plan. Yeah, definitely. And

13:54

the state, the order that you are

13:56

going to shoot things becomes really

13:58

important and can make the difference between.

13:59

success or failure in the scene because

14:02

it's all about, what's the smartest, most efficient

14:04

way to order everything? Shoot one

14:06

direction first, and then when you

14:08

have to turn, we call it turning around, then

14:11

there's all of these people and

14:13

tents and makeup chairs and all

14:15

these things. Like 300 people then need, in

14:17

all their crap, need to go to the other side

14:20

behind the camera and that can take an hour. So

14:22

you hope that you don't have to do that twice within

14:25

a day, but sometimes you do because of the sun. There

14:27

are just so many factors. The bigger

14:29

the scene

14:29

is, the more factors there

14:32

are. We send two more to

14:34

meet their fate. Polyverus

14:37

of the high cleric of the Church

14:39

of Selden. And

14:43

constant, the spindaughter

14:46

of those who so aggrieved

14:49

us. Who dies first?

14:54

The cleric

14:55

or the girl? This

14:59

season, in this episode, balance so

15:01

many tones just in individual

15:03

scenes even. Thinking of this execution

15:06

and day's performance, he

15:09

is scary but also funny

15:12

in how pompous he is, and then you have got

15:14

this really visceral and exciting action

15:16

scenes, and you've got the sadness of

15:19

everyone on Terminus. How do you balance

15:22

all of these things and make sure one tone

15:24

doesn't override the others?

15:25

Yeah, I know. It's a super

15:27

good point, and it's definitely something that

15:29

I think we as directors and as writers look

15:32

at all the time in terms of finding

15:34

that balance. But if you think about people and

15:36

how multifaceted they are, I mean, especially

15:39

people who rise to the level of dictators,

15:42

are very multifaceted in terms

15:44

of how they woo people to be near them, and

15:46

what their sense of humor appears to be, and then

15:49

how they can turn on a dime.

15:50

It's also a credit. I mean, Lee... Oh,

15:53

so good. I really do think he's one

15:55

of the greatest actors of this generation.

15:58

And, I mean, you see that scene...

15:59

which is highly performative, intentionally

16:03

so. He's really cruel when

16:05

he tosses it out

16:07

to Sarath about she'll Sarath

16:10

choose in that line. Who will go first?

16:12

Yeah, who will go first? Then he mentioned the girl and

16:14

is he talking about Sarath or is he talking about constant?

16:16

But then he's got this amazing scene with

16:19

Polly in the shuttle. Oh, yeah. Where

16:21

he's so quiet and even

16:24

as an emperor, he gets down on Polly's

16:26

level and he's calm. Polly has that

16:28

moment where he says, Viance is the last

16:29

refugee incumbent and he says, oh yeah, you're

16:32

probably right about that. I just love that he's

16:35

day but as embodied by

16:37

Lee is

16:39

capable of both those

16:41

temperatures and his performance. Because

16:43

he's like a dictator, but he's also weirdly

16:46

sometimes self-aware. He goes

16:48

in and out of it. Yeah.

16:50

I have faith in foundation.

16:54

Watch the rigor melt like candy.

16:58

See Polly, you

17:01

think you've just taken on the trappings of religion.

17:05

But once you start kneeling and praying,

17:08

it's hard to get back to standing and thinking.

17:13

That moment on the Rubicon is really great

17:16

because I think Day makes an actual good

17:18

point in that conversation when he says, pretending

17:20

to be a religion can become a religion.

17:23

At a certain point and isn't that what happened? Yeah.

17:26

Well, look, even going

17:29

back to Blade,

17:30

when I was

17:33

doing my first villainy villain,

17:35

I always like my villains

17:38

and I don't think Day's a villain. I think he's an antagonist,

17:41

which is a little different. But I always like

17:43

my villains or antagonists to make

17:45

good points. Day makes a

17:47

ton of great points throughout the show.

17:50

A lot of the things that people are accusing him

17:52

of, Harry or Seldin, are

17:55

culpable of the exact same thing.

17:57

Let's go to Sirmak and Seldin.

17:59

that scene was really

18:02

riveting and really sad. You could feel the scales

18:05

just falling away from Sir Max's eyes in

18:07

this moment as he realizes, oh,

18:09

are we all just pawns in this? We just

18:12

interchangeable pieces for Harry? He

18:14

tries to get an explanation from Dr. Selin, but

18:16

doesn't get too much. How did you approach this

18:18

scene?

18:19

As the sun was going down... I

18:23

didn't think he'd come out. I

18:27

felt I owed you as much. I

18:29

watched the broad beam from Trantor. Is

18:32

she alive? I don't know. A

18:35

whole lot of people have dedicated their lives to

18:37

pretending you know everything. I

18:40

sat her on my knee the moment she started thinking

18:42

about it, and I said, choose any job on Terminus.

18:44

Choose my job. Choose any job. Just promise me.

18:50

Just promise me you won't choose the

18:52

robes. We had Oliver

18:54

Chris, who's a great actor, and he had actually

18:57

auditioned for Day in

19:00

season one. I didn't know that. And

19:02

came very close to getting Day. He

19:04

would be great. And I wanted to cast

19:06

him in something. In this particular role, it

19:09

wasn't as large, but he said,

19:11

I still want to do something in Foundation. I said, well,

19:13

what about if you play this, and we'll write

19:15

the role up a little. So he wrote some more scenes

19:17

for him, and I said, okay, let's write a scene

19:19

between Dr. Selin and Sir Mac.

19:22

And it's also a very classically...

19:26

It feels like a scene that would have

19:28

happened in the Old Testament is

19:31

sort of the way we approach it. Yeah,

19:33

Job asking God, why have you placed

19:37

all these burdens upon me? Exactly.

19:39

And it was this beautiful two-hander, and then we

19:41

were over budget.

19:42

Yeah, and so it really was added

19:44

on to a day that was already very full. And

19:47

we were at the point where we were going to lose the sun,

19:49

and we had maybe 90 minutes

19:51

to get over there.

19:53

And that's not a short scene. It's

19:55

not a short scene. And I have to say, one of the reasons

19:58

that we were able to do that scene...

19:59

is that Jared was so unbelievably

20:03

gracious. He knew that it was,

20:05

in a way, a harder emotional scene for

20:07

his acting partner than it was for

20:10

him. And he said,

20:12

let him go first, let him get all the coverage, you

20:15

know, the sum was going down. We barely had enough

20:17

to cover Jared, and then he brought his A-game. But

20:19

there was this wonderful relationship between

20:21

the two of them of giving and

20:24

literally understanding what

20:26

the obstacles were for us

20:28

to get that scene.

20:29

And it was just, it was

20:32

like such a joy to get it in the can. And

20:34

I actually didn't know if the last couple of shots that

20:36

we had were, if we had enough

20:38

light. They

20:38

were right on the edge

20:41

of like, this isn't usable. There's

20:43

too much grain. The thing I love about

20:46

that scene is, you know, one, the emotion

20:48

of Cermak and the intense

20:52

crushing disappointment in the

20:54

profit. But also the seldom

20:56

attempting to be warm and I think succeeding

20:59

kind of, but also he also

21:01

can't help, but just like lay

21:04

out the entire psycho history thing again. Hey,

21:06

you know, individuals, it can't account for the individuals.

21:09

Sorry about it. They're not important. Yeah,

21:11

yeah, yeah. It's pure, pure

21:13

Dr. Seldin. How much of sending

21:17

constant and poly there was this thought

21:20

of, you know, the foundation could use markers, right?

21:23

I think that was a hundred percent

21:25

the thought. I mean, it was used

21:27

martyrs and also

21:29

using them to provoke day.

21:32

And I think Seldin had every expectation

21:35

that they would be killed.

21:36

It's a lot of, you know, the means to

21:38

justify the end. Yeah. Let's

21:41

go to Ignis where

21:44

Tellum is in the midst of

21:46

doing her mind transference

21:48

procedure. What a performance

21:50

by Rachel House who's mesmerizing

21:53

in this episode is Tellum. Roxanne,

21:55

what was it like working with her?

21:57

Oh, amazing. She's such

21:59

a phenomenal. presence. Yeah, love her.

22:02

She's so cool. Like you

22:04

just want to hang out with her. And she gives so much

22:08

humanity to the role and she sounds so

22:10

reasonable and she's funny throughout the season.

22:13

But she's, I would argue she's

22:16

a villain.

22:17

Like she's evil. I

22:20

mean, she's been hopping from body to

22:22

body to body, taking the body of children and

22:24

living forever. She's like a vampire. She's like

22:26

a psychic vampire.

22:27

You can understand why people fall in love

22:30

with her and why they are wooed by her presence. She's

22:32

charismatic. She's got this weird Jim Jones thing

22:34

going on. And I like that when

22:36

we introduce her in the season, she

22:38

sort of is cards up at first. Like

22:40

she says, I'm going to destroy the prime radiant and then the first time

22:42

you meet her. But you're like, is

22:45

she bad? Is she good? No, no, no, no,

22:47

no, she's really bad. You know, and it's

22:49

just like, I didn't know she was delight

22:52

to work with. To

22:53

your conversation about her being

22:55

a villain, she does seem so reasonable. But

22:57

when she lays out what she's been doing,

23:00

there's no way to square what she has been presenting

23:02

herself as previously with this.

23:05

There's no way to make this fit into any

23:08

kind of moral code. You're stealing the bodies

23:10

of like kids and innocent people. Yeah,

23:13

yeah. And she's doing it. I

23:15

mean, at least what Harry is doing

23:17

or even arguably what Day is doing, right,

23:19

is he's running a galaxy.

23:21

You know, and Harry's ostensibly trying

23:23

to save humanity. She's just

23:26

doing it because she just wants to live forever and she

23:28

doesn't want to die.

23:28

She's afraid of death and admittedly so

23:31

in fact, the only reason. One of the things she

23:33

says is that it was her

23:35

that influenced Gail to leave Synax in season

23:37

one is, was wondering, is she lying? Is that

23:40

a lie? Is that true? I'm

23:42

smiling because that led to many

23:45

discussions, that very particular thing

23:47

on the set and we

23:50

ended up a little bit open-ended. I know

23:52

you have kind of a strong opinion

23:55

on that. No, no,

23:56

I don't know.

23:59

Which is what's cool. She

24:02

says it and maybe it's true or

24:04

maybe it's not. And if it's true, that's kind of mind

24:06

boggling. But I think I'm comfortable

24:09

sometimes with laying

24:11

certain things out where we're not 100% sure whether

24:14

it's true or not or what really happened. You

24:17

know, we had a debate in the writer's room and

24:19

I'm not even sure I know. Does it change things?

24:21

Well, you know, it's

24:24

interesting. I lean that it's a

24:26

lie. So did Lou. My

24:28

sense from Tellum

24:30

is that she is, of course,

24:32

incredibly powerful, but she's also been presenting

24:34

herself as more powerful

24:37

than she is at certain times. And I feel

24:39

like

24:39

across the galaxy you influence

24:41

this one. Randy, come on. Come on, Tellum.

24:44

You may be right. But she has. I definitely

24:47

believe she's influenced people on other

24:49

planets. Yes. I believe

24:50

that. Like she's that powerful. So

24:53

I don't know, man. And yet

24:55

she dissolves in front of the mule. It's

24:58

very, very interesting. There's definitely

25:00

a limit.

25:01

Let's go to Dr.

25:03

Seldin, Salvor, and Hooper Malow. First

25:06

of all, the reveal that this

25:08

is how Dr. Seldin finds out

25:10

about Hooper Malow is talk

25:12

about that. Well, you had asked this in the

25:15

earlier podcast, right? And hopefully

25:18

the reveal was satisfying for you. Yes.

25:21

Because I probably shouldn't

25:23

say this. But when we started

25:25

out episode two and

25:28

the name Hooper Malow

25:29

shows up, I didn't know

25:32

how it got there. And

25:34

that's a very bold, like, you know,

25:36

and I come from the James Cameron School of

25:38

like, that's a cool thing right towards it and we'll figure

25:40

it out. And we

25:42

were like three more episodes

25:45

in and the writers could not

25:47

figure it out. And I remember I

25:50

was walking my dogs one morning and

25:52

I was like, I fucking got it. I got

25:54

it. And

25:57

I texted it to myself. And

25:59

then we had the

25:59

writers room that day and I said, this

26:02

is how. And they were like, you motherfucker.

26:05

That's really good. That's really good. But

26:07

I was like, it just popped into my head one day, because

26:10

it's a fun scene between Selver

26:12

and Selvin, right? Like they like

26:14

each other. And this Selvin knows

26:17

Selver. This is the Selvin that met Selver 138

26:19

years ago. And I think like he's a little

26:22

fond of her. And it's interesting

26:25

that Selver has a relationship

26:27

with this Harry that Gale doesn't. And

26:29

so that's really interesting. And so it's a really

26:31

fun scene. It's a really fun scene watching Selvin

26:34

figure it out just from like really quickly.

26:36

It's like, oh, but that would make me the left hand. Oh my God.

26:38

And back and forth and back and forth. And that's really

26:40

fun. And then I just thought it would be so lovely

26:43

if Selvin is the one that helps

26:45

Selver

26:46

get out and free Gale

26:49

and free the other Harry inadvertently,

26:51

but that Selver also trips up

26:54

and cheats and gives Selvin

26:57

this name, which also saves

27:01

the foundation, but will

27:04

have other ramifications

27:06

in future seasons. Like everything

27:09

we do, it's like the story doesn't

27:11

just end there. The fact that she Selver

27:14

said that and he decided to write that name,

27:17

that's not the end of that storyline.

27:19

Like there's going to be more dominoes that

27:22

are going to fall from that little event. Hobbermallow.

27:26

Hobbermallow. According

27:30

to Gale, he's

27:32

going to pierce the empire's

27:34

hide. You shouldn't have told me that.

27:37

I can't make you use it. So

27:40

I would imagine that our audience, their

27:43

brains were kind of breaking.

27:45

Is it that time in the vault

27:48

is different or did this happen

27:51

at a different time outside the vault?

27:53

Time inside the vault is different,

27:56

but

27:56

my intention with episode eight is to tell

27:58

you that

27:59

over Gale, Harry's storyline is actually happening

28:02

a

28:02

couple weeks in advance. And

28:05

so their episode

28:08

eight coincides with

28:11

episode two of what's happening on Terminus.

28:14

And so we were sort of being a little

28:16

cheeky by not letting the

28:18

audience catch up to that until hopefully

28:20

episode eight.

28:22

Did you get it? Yes, very

28:25

brain twisty, especially with all the other

28:27

brain twisting that is happening in this episode.

28:29

What I love about it, playing with sort

28:31

of time and space, is to find

28:33

out after the fact what caused something that

28:35

you've seen already. That was confusing

28:38

and you didn't know where, why it's happening, what it's going

28:40

to lead to and then you go back and explain

28:43

it. And to me, I love those

28:45

mind twisting things. Yeah. And

28:47

actually,

28:48

when you understand what Selver did,

28:50

it's actually not that confusing. Selver

28:53

just said, hey, dude,

28:55

this guy's going to be really important. You might

28:57

want to tell everyone. And then he was like,

28:59

and he didn't get it through psycho history. And they were like, okay,

29:02

I guess I'm going to. They're

29:04

going to be ramifications. That's all I'm going to say.

29:07

When we shot going into

29:10

the actual prime radiant and

29:12

kind of that mirrored room, that was

29:14

all practical. Oh, wow. And

29:16

most of it,

29:17

if not all of it, was done in

29:20

camera, actually. Almost all of it.

29:22

Yeah. As they moved through these two

29:24

way mirrors, we were able to adjust

29:27

light that would come up and down and be able to reveal

29:29

things and repetitions

29:31

and patterns. And we actually worked

29:34

on a set that was quite small, but had to give it scope

29:37

and had to make it feel like you were at the center of the prime

29:39

radiant so that the lights were constantly moving

29:41

and you just felt like you were in a shimmering

29:44

center of something that was just like

29:46

almost alive. And it allowed

29:49

us the kind of freedom to

29:51

also do a lot of things that were not

29:53

necessarily logical or expected.

29:57

And that also just speaks to the

29:59

idea. that everything has

30:01

its implications. In other words, everything

30:03

that you say and do will have a trajectory

30:06

that moves way beyond from

30:08

that initial statement or that piece of information

30:10

that is revealed.

30:11

It's also very theatrical in

30:13

the classical sense. Yeah. It's

30:15

fun when you have some scenes like that where you have

30:18

creative license to just really

30:20

go crazy. It's such

30:21

a gift. It is so much fun. You

30:23

can get there and just use

30:25

your imagination. Yeah, it's great.

30:28

We have

30:28

to talk about Salvor's

30:31

rediscovery of the prime radiant hiding

30:34

as a trivet, a serving dish. I

30:36

have my interpretation of how this happened and

30:39

involves her own powers and something

30:41

like a post hypnotic suggestion. But

30:44

how did she rediscover that

30:46

she knew where it was? Harry

30:48

gave her a clue. Yeah. Well, yeah, Harry gave

30:50

her a clue, but this is also really tricky because

30:53

you notice, I think it's in Episode 6

30:56

in the flashback, you see a prototype

30:59

of the prime radiant fold up. It's

31:01

in a flattened state. It's on Harry's

31:03

desk in the Helicon backstory. It

31:06

unfolds. We're telling the audience a couple

31:08

episodes earlier, this thing can also unfold,

31:11

and then hopefully they forget about it. Then

31:14

in 6,

31:16

before the flashback, Harry

31:19

says to Salvor, go after

31:21

the primary and it's hidden.

31:23

It won't look like it does, but it's in plain

31:25

sight. But it's in plain sight or basically he says

31:28

that. Then there's at

31:30

least two scenes where it

31:32

is. If viewers go back, it is in plain

31:34

sight. One of them is when Tellum's

31:37

in the beggars talking to Gail,

31:40

it's there in

31:41

front of them. Literally,

31:43

it's like two feet away

31:45

from Tellum the whole time in a couple of shots.

31:49

We played fair with the audience, but we

31:51

really were hiding things. What

31:54

the audience is to infer from that

31:56

is that after the moment,

31:58

right before Harry left in 6, he says to

32:00

Salver, find the radiant,

32:02

protect and protect Gail, that

32:05

Salver went onto the

32:07

beggar,

32:08

found it, flattened it, and put

32:10

it in the lining of her coat. And so that moment

32:13

that she's going back to is actually something she did earlier

32:15

and she's had it on her.

32:17

But it's tricky. But we were really

32:19

particular about, like Alex Gray, she

32:21

did episode six, I was really particular

32:23

about, you got to get a couple of these shots

32:26

when Gail and Telmer talking with this flattened

32:28

prime radiant is sort of in the foreground

32:31

out of focus. And he was sort of like,

32:33

why? And I was like, just trust me, but like, I

32:35

promise you, it'll work. It was tricky.

32:39

And then how did she

32:42

shield that information from

32:44

Tellem's grasp from the mentalics

32:46

probing around? I mean, it's hard.

32:48

It went like that's when- Well, she forgot herself that

32:50

she had it. Yes, exactly. Exactly.

32:52

She had no idea about it as well. Exactly.

32:55

And part of me wonders whether Gail didn't

32:57

help her forget that. Because there's that

32:59

scene in seven where Gail's like, you

33:01

need to hide your thoughts and you need

33:03

to think really carefully about what you're saying and

33:07

what you're doing. So it's

33:09

tricky because we're on an enclave

33:11

of mind readers. And some of

33:14

that idea I remember getting,

33:16

there's a great science fiction author named

33:18

Alfred Bester who wrote a classic

33:20

science fiction story

33:21

called The Demolished Man about

33:23

a future where a lot of people have

33:26

psychic abilities, particularly the cops.

33:28

And a murderer commits a murder and has

33:30

to shield his thoughts from the psychic

33:33

cops. And he has to come up with like

33:35

an earworm that he says in his head over and

33:37

over again. And so there was a little bit of that going on

33:39

in the back of my head when we were dealing with the Ignis

33:41

stuff.

33:42

Let's go to Tran'tor. Day is just

33:45

an amazing figure in this episode. As

33:47

he's leaving, much to the consternation of everybody

33:49

that is trying to advise him what to do. He's

33:52

going against the advice of

33:54

Demorzel, of Dusk, of

33:56

Dawn, of everyone.

33:58

It's interesting to me. that

34:00

he doesn't suspect that Sarath

34:03

and Dawn have some sort

34:05

of spark going. I

34:07

just chalk it up to arrogance, but

34:09

why does he not notice this? Arrogance?

34:13

I think so. I think it's arrogance. He

34:15

thinks he's so much cooler than

34:17

Dawn that there's just no way.

34:20

What's the benefit there? I mean, he's

34:22

the main dude, you know? It's like, I think

34:25

he just can't imagine it. Arrogance

34:27

seems to me the exact same inspiration

34:30

for this trip to Terminus. I'm just gonna go

34:32

and against everyone's

34:34

better judgment, show you how it's really

34:37

done, I'm just gonna take all of the Empire's

34:39

property back, one fell swoop

34:40

with as little violence

34:43

as necessary, and it's gonna shock you. That's

34:45

really his plan, right? His plan

34:48

is to basically prove everybody wrong. If

34:50

they say white, he says black. If they say

34:52

black, he says white. I mean, you feel

34:55

him. If they had said go to Terminus, he would know. I'll be

34:57

the one who doesn't go to Terminus. It's like, there's

34:59

just that part of him.

35:00

Exactly. I will look the coast of

35:02

Seleton in the eye, and I will

35:04

reclaim what is ours. You

35:10

will have a planet as a wedding

35:12

gift. Speaking

35:16

of hiding in plain sight, Demarzel's

35:19

been hiding in plain sight for now centuries.

35:24

Talk to us about how she could

35:26

have, obviously the memory erasure

35:29

and editing would help, but she

35:31

must be doing a fantastic job that no one has ever

35:33

wondered what her role is here

35:36

and how can she continue to be

35:38

here after all these years.

35:40

Well, the interesting reveal, right, is

35:43

that the Cleons seem to be

35:45

as programmed as she is, possibly

35:48

even more so. She's such a complex character

35:50

because you feel so much empathy for her, but

35:53

it's like, is she a villain? Is she the

35:55

Terminator? Is she a victim? What

35:58

is she? Also, some people...

35:59

believe that she might also be a clone

36:02

and part of the same. Therefore,

36:04

it seems justified

36:06

that she's staying the same age. Well, that's certainly

36:08

with the public belief. The public belief that, which

36:11

is how she can get away with the hiding in plain sight.

36:13

I love that the conclusion

36:15

at the end of the episode between Rue

36:18

and Dusk and Sarath and

36:20

Dawn

36:22

is they have this awareness

36:24

of like, oh my God, we have so

36:27

much less agency than we thought

36:29

we had. Just the fact

36:31

that we pulled this thread means

36:33

we might be dead now. That

36:36

was part of the palace intrigue aspect

36:39

of the season that this dawning

36:41

horror on the part of the Cleans, which Day

36:43

is unaware of this aspect of it yet, that

36:45

they're really just puppets. Dawn

36:49

says an incredible line,

36:51

Demarzel is Cleon's only true heir, his

36:53

forever empress. Yep. Or prisoner.

36:56

I find myself wondering as I watch her

36:58

and seeing what

37:00

she has been through in her true relationship

37:02

to empire.

37:03

She is really also a prisoner, as

37:06

powerful as she is, isn't she?

37:08

This is episode eight, so maybe

37:10

we'll learn more about that next episode, we'll see. Can

37:13

I plug the forever empress herself? We'll be with

37:15

us in next week's episode, Laura

37:18

Bierin, who plays Demarzel.

37:20

Well, I know you know what comes next,

37:22

David, but for Roxanne, what comes

37:24

next is building the foundation, our light speed

37:27

round of questions. Show

37:29

you a one. You'll

37:30

be allowed to build your foundation. You're supposed

37:32

to be the one. Why do you put up in the

37:35

boat? You want to be in control?

37:37

You know nothing. So,

37:41

Hobart jumps right into a crowd of people.

37:44

Is it the shockwave that sends out the explosion

37:47

or is it armaments? Is it bombs and

37:49

stuff? Shockwave. Yep. How

37:52

do they project these broadcasts

37:54

across the galaxy? Like, what is the mechanism?

37:57

What do

37:59

we say? There's a tight beam. There's

38:02

needle cast, which is like narrow beam, and

38:04

then there's another phrase that we use at one. It's

38:07

like space Wi-Fi.

38:08

Yeah. Did

38:10

you discuss what else they use it for? Is it

38:13

only executions? Are there sports? Are

38:15

there imperial trans- No, no, no. I

38:17

think this is like for sports and for like

38:19

the Galactic Olympics and for-

38:21

And for announcements. Fire side addresses.

38:23

Yeah. Yeah. This

38:26

is like the public address system across the galaxy.

38:28

Yeah.

38:28

I've seen a previous podcast episode

38:30

from VFX supervisor Chris McLean

38:33

that Becky is a vegetarian, Bishop's

38:35

Claws are vegetarians.

38:36

Does that mean that she wouldn't

38:38

have eaten days? She would just have torn

38:40

them apart? Yeah. I don't think

38:42

he's worthy of her eating him. I don't think

38:44

he has any nutritional value for her. She

38:47

just didn't like him. Yeah.

38:50

Who's Demarzel's favorite Kleon

38:52

of the active Kleons right now? Does she

38:54

have- does she prefer any of them to

38:57

any of the others? It seems like

38:59

she's always

39:01

closest to Dawn, but

39:04

you could argue based on what she's done this season

39:07

being intimate with Day, but I think that's

39:10

artifice. Yeah. I don't think that's something

39:12

that she particularly enjoys. I

39:15

think she likes them when they're kids and she

39:17

is fond of them when they're really old. That's

39:20

my take. Well, thanks so much for joining

39:21

us, David and Roxanne. Oh,

39:24

gosh. What a pleasure. Thank

39:26

you. Until next week, as mentioned, we'll be joined by the forever

39:29

Empress Laura Bierne. Thanks for listening

39:31

to Foundation, the official podcast. Be sure

39:33

to follow on Apple Podcast to get the next episode

39:35

in your feed and watch Foundation on Apple TV

39:38

Plus. We're available. This is an Apple TV Plus

39:40

podcast produced by Pineapple Street

39:42

Studios. Our executive producers at Pineapple

39:44

are Gabriel Lewis and Barry Finkel. Our

39:47

producers are Ahmed Ali Akbar and Ben

39:49

Goldberg. Our managing producer is

39:51

Bria Mariet, Darby Maloney is our

39:54

editor, Engineering and Mixing by Hannes

39:56

Brown. Music by Carly Bond

39:58

with additional music provided by Apple. I'm

40:00

Jason Kitsupcion, thanks for listening.

40:04

Let's promise to always attend

40:07

each other's executions.