Ben:
And also an app. So of course, their web application comes with an IOS application, which has caused a bit of a kerfuffle in the Apple world over the past few days. Which is funny that the timing is such that it's right before their Worldwide Developers Conference. That's interesting. But I was thinking about it this morning-

Josh:
Yes, it's very interesting. Some would say it's a little more than a coincidence.

Ben:
I bet you that we will see Basecamp releasing the company version of Hey very, very soon. And when they do, I bet you that the IOS app will be cleared for takeoff. Because I-

Josh:
Ah, because then it will be a company app, right, in air quotes.

Starr:
Oh, yeah.

Ben:
Exactly.

Josh:
Y'all can't see my air quotes, listeners. But ...

Starr:
What is the kerfuffle, as you called it? What's going on?

Ben:
So Apple won't let Basecamp update their IOS app. And in fact, have somewhat threatened to removed the existing app from the store because-

Starr:
But the existing ... I'm sorry, the existing Basecamp app?

Ben:
No, the existing Hey app.

Starr:
Oh, the Hey app.

Josh:
Yeah, it's the new, their email client. Yeah.

Starr:
Yeah.

Ben:
Because they do not support in app purchases for the Hey subscription, which costs $100 a year. And of course, David and Jason are not willing to give Apple any cut. And Apple is saying, "Well, our rules are you got to do IAP if you want to have an app that does something that's tied to a subscription."

Josh:
They want 30% or something.

Ben:
30%. So I bet you, again, that company thing will come out real soon now. And as soon as they do, Apple will be like, "Okay, well since it's not an individual thing, then of course we'll let that app in." Just like a bunch of other apps that are currently in the App Store, like for example, Fastmail, right.

Josh:
The argument is consumer versus business, right.

Ben:
Right.

Josh:
The rules for consumer apps are different from the rules for business apps.

Ben:
And Basecamp, they're making quite a stink about this whole thing, saying it's highway robbery, and it's taxing the internet, and all this kind of stuff, right. But this is a thing of marketplaces, they charge you a fee for being on their storefront. That's just the way that these things work. It's not new, right. And we do the same thing with Heroku, right. We pay Heroku 30% of all the revenue that comes in through people using our service through Heroku. And that's just the cost of being on the platform.

Starr:
So let me ask you, I think I may have misunderstood this slightly. So in order to have any ... I guess, for new apps, Apple is saying that if you have any type of subscription service, it has to be purchasable through the app via Apple's payment purchasing thing that's equivalent to Apple's version of PayPal, or whatever.

Ben:
Yeah. If that app is a personal app.

Starr:
If it's a personal app.

Ben:
And not a reader kind of app, like Netflix falls into the thing of readers I think. So that's-

Starr:
Wait, what?

Josh:
Oh, I didn't know the reader distinction.

Starr:
I was just going to ask about this, because Netflix, yeah you can't sign up through the App Store for Netflix. So what's the difference?

Josh:
Oh, because it's read only. It's just content you're viewing or something.

Ben:
Yes. Yeah.

Josh:
Oh. So if Netflix let you upload videos like Vimeo or something, then they'd have to ...

Ben:
Well, imagine if you download the Netflix app, and there was nothing you could do unless you had a paid subscription, right.

Josh:
Oh, yeah.

Ben:
Then if there wasn't a special exclusion for Netflix, there obviously is, right, then Apple would say, "Well, the app doesn't do anything useful, we don't want that kind of app on our App Store." And that's the argument for Hey. It's an email app that can't load email from any other service except for Hey, and you can't use Hey unless you have a paid account, a paid personal account.

Josh:
Yeah, all you can do is log in.

Ben:
Right.

Josh:
Right. Yeah.

Ben:
Right. So I totally see Apple's stance on this. And a lot of people are thinking they're being jerks about it. But I mean, Apple is saying, "Hey, we have a big platform, and you are reaping the benefits of being on our big platform, so pay us."

Josh:
Yeah. Well, it seems like the bigger question is, is it a good idea to basically just build for one platform?

Ben:
That's definitely the question, yeah.

Josh:
If you're going to start a new company, is targeting solely ... Just building IOS apps for instance, is that a good idea?

Starr:
You want to target IOS and Blackberry.

Josh:
Right. Get that IOS Blackberry electron port or whatever.

Starr:
Yeah, you play them off one another.

Josh:
React Native. Does React Native target Blackberry?

Starr:
I don't know.

Ben:
Probably.

Starr:
My mind is just exploding right now.

Josh:
Yeah. I find it funny just the level of outrage on both sides. It seems like there's two very vocal camps on one saying, "Basecamp is just drumming up all this outrage as a marketing strategy, and it's just like billionaires squabbling over 30% of their empires or something." And then on the other side, obviously you have DHH and everyone else who's upset with Apple. But to me, it does seem like there are more pressing matters in the world right now than-

Starr:
Yeah, you think? You think? Just a couple things.

Josh:
I could think of a few things.

Starr:
Just a couple more important things.

Josh:
Yeah.

Starr:
One thing about this, it's sort of ... Okay. First of all, I have to say, so I was reading Tweets from Andrey Butov a friend of the show, and ... I hope I can say that. I hope he doesn't get mad at me for saying that. And-

Josh:
Well, he built our IOS app, right.

Starr:
Yeah, he built our IOS app. So he's a friend of Honeybadger I think, and we're a friend of his. And he's like, "Why are people taking sides on this? This is two companies that both make a ton of money just arguing over a percentage. Why are people taking up arms about it?" And that made me think. Well, that was an interesting take, because I feel like Basecamp, 37signals, their shtick is, "We're bootstrappers." Jason Fried goes and speaks at bootstrap conferences and stuff.

Starr:
But really, Basecamp is in a league beyond pretty much any bo...

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