0:00

this

0:00

is fresh air i'm dave davies

0:02

in today for terry gross imagine

0:05

opening your car door, one morning, and being

0:07

greeted by by the stench of groceries, including

0:09

raw, chicken and and vegetables that

0:11

were left in the the backseat overnight in sweltering

0:14

weather, that happens in the opening

0:16

pages of the new novel by our guest

0:18

john virtue the , character

0:20

of his book is veteran mixed martial

0:22

arts fighter and the groceries rotted

0:25

in the car because the beatings and head

0:27

trauma xavier wallace has suffered over

0:29

the years left him unable to

0:31

remember that he'd bought them them

0:34

novel is about fight game family

0:36

the ravages of dementia and

0:38

about and xavier as

0:40

the son of a black mother who left the family

0:42

when he was young and a white father

0:45

who was now struggling was alzheimer's

0:47

as the story unfolds he learns more

0:49

about his family's past as he struggles

0:51

to resurrect he fighting career like

0:54

his main character john virtual is the

0:56

son of mixed race parents and

0:58

he trained in mixed martial arts as a young

1:00

man though as never fought professionally

1:03

for tour is now a contributing writer for cognisant

1:05

e w b u r's online

1:07

idea and opinion site and

1:09

npr has featured his essays on

1:11

race identity and parenting he's

1:14

the author of a previous novel titled

1:16

three fifths his latest novel

1:18

is after the lights go out john

1:20

virtual welcome to fresh air thanks so much for

1:22

having me dave i'd like us

1:24

to begin with reading this like us very

1:26

beginning of the book when we are learning

1:29

about this character xavier wallace

1:31

a you want to just pick this up horse absolutely

1:35

the game had passed exam years scarecrow

1:37

wallace by too many

1:39

young bucks on the come up looking for stepping

1:42

stone stepping stone next level the cage

1:44

had no place for old toothless lions

1:46

fighting for their pride then

1:49

for a row no tomato gains

1:52

either championship kick boxers

1:54

jujitsu aces each

1:56

one the next big thing but

1:59

none of them had to grind the and

2:01

talent and hormones cardio

2:03

made cowards of them all the

2:05

gravy or drag them into deep waters the

2:07

championship rounds were lactic

2:10

acid towards muscles were

2:12

deep breaths provided no oxygen

2:14

only the desperate need to breathe deeper

2:17

faster shoulders eight

2:19

submissions lacked squeeze hunters

2:22

lost their snap flabby

2:24

thrown with languid legs engine

2:26

and pivoting at the joints from sheer momentum

2:29

break the spirit the body follows

2:31

fast behind but

2:33

he paid cost for his time in the deep end

2:35

to worse than the patchwork

2:38

remnants stitches in his forehead worse

2:41

than the accumulation of crackling scar

2:43

tissue above his jagged orbital

2:45

bones worse even

2:47

than the seemingly interminable intensifying

2:50

headaches worse than all that

2:53

well the forgetting

2:55

and added john virtual reading from his new novel

2:57

after the lights go out so we meet this

3:00

character exam your wildest scarecrow

3:02

was his nickname who are who has

3:04

made made the side game and was hoping

3:06

get back and what he'd been suspended for

3:08

something which eventually

3:10

emerges as the story unfolds

3:13

but we learn about the punishment he's taken

3:15

and the symptoms that the

3:18

this guy sufferers are

3:20

vividly described as we move through the

3:22

book want to describe what what is going through

3:24

so he's experiencing short

3:27

term memory loss he's

3:29

having violence swings

3:32

violence swings of mood he goes

3:34

from happy to anxious

3:36

to angry and not

3:38

of we don't all do that and are normal lives but

3:40

he's now experiencing this sort of

3:42

at very amplified degree and

3:45

all of this is creating a great deal of

3:47

uncertainty and him because he

3:49

would obviously like for these things

3:51

to not be occurring but he's

3:53

got no other options said appoint a slice

3:55

were fighting is all yours list and

3:58

his hearing things he's got and

4:00

it is which comes , goes

4:03

at at varying degrees sometimes to

4:05

a maddening extent but

4:07

he's also ah he's

4:10

experiencing what i what i described as a

4:12

deterioration of his frontal lobe

4:14

and so does voice talking

4:16

to him in some sense it's him but

4:18

it's is unfiltered self

4:20

and what's what's really happening here

4:22

is something that happens to a lot of

4:24

athletes that compete in high impact

4:27

sport is not just mixed martial arts certainly

4:29

football and hockey in boxing what the

4:31

city what is that so the the

4:34

stands for chronic traumatic encephalopathy

4:37

what happens as the as the has

4:39

impacts occurred to the head the brain,

4:42

essentially slides, back and and forth in

4:44

the the skull and and as it it bounces off the hard

4:46

surfaces, it creates damage to those

4:48

areas in

4:51

mixed martial arts as a a young man, man how

4:53

much of of these descriptions come from your experience?

4:55

how how much of of it it comes from to people

4:57

that that you you knew? so it's a

4:59

a mixed experience i i want

5:02

make to the disclaimer the that do i i train died? i don't,

5:04

i never really had

5:06

the same things that at stake for the the men

5:08

and and women who compete in the sport professionally

5:11

or or even as amateurs hoping to do

5:13

it professionally you know i was tourist

5:15

says is how i describe it but

5:19

being immersed in that world being around some

5:21

people that did status aspiration

5:23

professional you do hear the stories of the headaches

5:26

and and the after effects as after

5:28

career that is so physical

5:31

but also some of the experience

5:33

about the symptoms and cells come

5:35

from my working life for

5:37

, a decade i was physical therapist

5:40

com and first a good amount time spent

5:42

some time working in sports medicine

5:44

so i was working with number of athletes

5:47

including football players and

5:49

, in other contact sports and

5:51

you had some experience with mixed martial

5:53

arts

5:55

for people who aren't familiar with the just explain

5:57

little bit about what mixed

5:59

more

6:00

the arts fight our hundred different

6:02

from boxing say that make

6:04

me the expert on mixed martial arts

6:06

and nobody hold me too says but

6:08

ah mixed martial arts is in

6:10

essence what it sounds like it is a t

6:13

a sport that combines and

6:15

numerous martial arts boxing

6:18

reference

6:19

what is known as brazilian jujitsu

6:21

which is a form of fighting on the ground that

6:24

focuses , submissions

6:26

meaning ah join clocks

6:28

chokes things of that nature nature

6:32

it takes place in cage instead of ring where

6:34

the the cage can actually be utilized

6:37

in much the same way that the ropes

6:39

can be utilized in a in boxing ring know

6:41

they say it's fighters can can

6:43

back off of them as they are on the ground can

6:45

use their seat to change positions

6:47

and but it is

6:49

a multi disciplinary

6:51

sport right and it's one a boxers

6:54

were big heavy glass like sixteen

6:56

ounce gloves sixteen be some world ounces of outcome

6:58

world for professional boxer and mixed martial

7:00

arts that much smaller four ounce

7:02

fingerless gloves so i'd

7:04

just enough padding to sometimes

7:07

keep them from breaking their hands but

7:09

these their hands need the fingers need to be free

7:11

because brazilian jujitsu ah

7:14

incorporates lot of grips that

7:16

you say you were a kind of a tourist in mixed

7:18

martial art and but you were serious enough

7:20

about this that to get the cage at least

7:22

was an effect on

7:24

, tube and sound a grainy

7:26

city video of john virtue

7:29

virtue the cage doing it in a match

7:31

wits prevailing pretty quickly

7:35

what does it feel like splitter i have to six

7:38

like i kind of enjoy boxing although i mean

7:40

it's all santa barbara can people beating

7:42

each other up better served some rules do it

7:44

disconnects somebody down exists to get back

7:46

up in mixed martial arts

7:48

just seems so brutal

7:50

to be the get on somebody impound on

7:52

the face while they're down to

7:54

play that the seal of this to us as funny

7:56

as someone mention that to me nuts

7:58

too long ago and i

8:00

and i do push back on that little bit

8:02

because i'm in particular

8:04

there's a section and novel where i talk about this

8:06

were because

8:09

we've applied certain rules set to some

8:11

these sports that somehow

8:13

they seem less brutal barbaric

8:15

but you know when you watch a football game

8:17

then those gentlemen are experiencing

8:19

the equivalent of car crash every down so

8:22

at i don't think it's any more brutal

8:24

than any other sports but i

8:28

think there is something about the

8:31

idea that you presented at once goes the

8:33

ground we're so used to boxing

8:35

were be no referee intervenes

8:37

and they're allowed stand up and get the standing

8:39

eight count think

8:42

it's something have to wrap our minds around know

8:44

this is this the sport while it's much

8:46

more mainstream now is still kind

8:48

of in it's infancy in terms of being

8:50

mainstream so so

8:53

that that either that's how i would speak to that point

8:55

right now and there are rules and absolutely

8:58

when you're down you can't use your elbow to

9:00

come down on somebody's face their i'm up for

9:02

a lotta rules like that yeah of their it's

9:04

from nine to twelve is either described

9:06

that you can't come straight down with an elbow

9:08

but they're stoves elbows are still allowed

9:11

in in certain ways so but

9:13

yes there is rule sets and

9:15

for and for was a period

9:17

where there was an argument

9:20

that in some ways mixed martial arts was safer

9:22

in terms of brain injury because a

9:25

fight doesn't always have to and by knockout were

9:27

a submission can occur with someone can tap

9:29

out and say i've had enough so

9:32

but as the years go on it's

9:34

still quite clear that that had dramas

9:37

is a significant factor

9:40

know now that we've established that you've been in ring

9:42

kill can find this this you can see this

9:44

yard rusher and your friends are yelling for what

9:47

does it feel like what's like what's appeal ah

9:50

what is the appeal

9:52

why i can tell you as far as what it feels like

9:54

it is the one the most frightening

9:56

things have ever done but

9:59

it was also because that

10:01

it was one the most challenging and

10:04

i think because

10:06

it because i was able to be

10:09

afraid and still do it it

10:12

, many things for me personally it was

10:14

it was an accomplishment i never thought

10:16

would be able to do do was

10:18

never much of an of growing

10:20

up so sick to compete in an

10:22

endeavor like that and to succeed

10:25

and even even if i had lost to

10:27

be there supported by friends and family

10:29

to hear to hear them screaming your name is

10:31

your name rust like no sir

10:34

yeah the moment when you stand up with your arms race

10:36

off as a surrogate

10:38

i can i get goosebumps and near thinking about

10:40

it and was so many years ago but you are tempted to

10:42

try and make career i

10:44

think that in the back of my

10:46

mind i eat when decided

10:49

that i would start training and start training

10:51

that hard and start thinking about competing

10:53

i thought sure maybe the

10:56

one thing one thing learn about myself is that

10:58

i didn't have the mental strength

11:01

to do that for career it

11:03

was i often

11:06

defeated myself before i got

11:08

in the cage i wasn't one of those guys

11:10

have walked into the ring or the cage with confidence

11:12

and said site as mine gonna win

11:14

this as it was more i hope i may

11:16

get outta here and if i lose

11:18

i don't i didn't expect to

11:20

win so

11:23

what do you make of it was was that because

11:26

know you weren't as experienced or well trained

11:28

or you didn't have the fire yeah

11:32

i think it comes from a

11:35

you know at one of my one the reasons was so

11:38

interested in writing this book and and focusing

11:40

and around the idea of ah

11:42

mental health was because was

11:45

from an adolescent and well into my adulthood

11:47

i grappled with anxiety and depression and

11:49

so ah i think

11:51

part of what companies that

11:53

is that imposter syndrome right that

11:55

voice and in the back of your head that says

11:58

and maybe you not quite good enough may be done do

12:00

these things as well hum and

12:02

so for me during these

12:04

amateur kickboxing in and the the one

12:06

cage competition tomatoes

12:09

were an , to fight back

12:11

against that voice and

12:13

, and it worked well for me that's that's that's

12:15

what it did for me but i knew

12:17

that i didn't quite have

12:19

the same fortitude to ,

12:21

that professionally to have it be the only thing

12:23

i ever do and we're glad you did because

12:25

you've got the mental capacity or i suspect

12:27

get talk to us coherently some

12:29

any your record of the cages wanna know right

12:32

as undefeated effects are good at

12:35

this character in savior he trains at

12:37

trains gym than gym of philadelphia which i

12:40

know because we're in philadelphia and i'm

12:42

and the trainer is his

12:44

cousin in of

12:46

trainers in boxing movies and stories

12:49

are colorful people in disguise very

12:51

colorful tell us about them tell us by this name

12:53

says , is a shemar

12:56

shot tracy a

12:58

the name shot comes from a

13:00

an uncle of mine a white

13:02

unfortunately never got the pleasure to meet a

13:05

but my father told me many stories about

13:07

them and and i mean come on it's just the coolest

13:09

name a boat for a boxing trainer

13:11

and and just in general so a

13:14

i felt that was a a way to sorta pay

13:16

tribute to him but a

13:18

yeah i love

13:20

sort of that archetype of the of

13:22

the colorful boxing trainer

13:25

but i wanted to take that a step further

13:27

by making him family because

13:29

shots role to me in this book is tourist

13:31

town

13:32

no he he tells the truth whether you wanna hear

13:34

it not and exam

13:37

, needs that in his life because exam

13:39

year tells lot allies to himself right

13:41

he shot runs the german and

13:44

part of it to his turned over

13:46

to the the gentrifying a

13:48

crowd and nary has number classes

13:50

and and i live in i'm cycling

13:53

things and all admins but he's got real

13:55

old classic ring

13:57

where he trains people mother heavy bag and all that

14:00

and he's given it's a beer our

14:02

main character the job there

14:04

because and six ab was suspended for a

14:06

year and what's your read out of about eight

14:08

want people to get sense of some the dialogue that

14:10

you're right herpes i find it so riveting i'm

14:12

you want just set the see my for this is this is

14:14

a heart to heart between shot

14:17

the cousin and trainer and main

14:19

character say this year so it's

14:21

beer has come to the gym

14:23

after discovering

14:26

a , in his car that he had

14:28

forgotten that he adopted and

14:32

as use explaining to shot why he's

14:34

showing up to his gym with this sort

14:37

, haggard looking poor people

14:40

people revealing to shot the

14:42

struggles that he's been going through with his

14:44

city has been keeping them secret as

14:46

as best can and so

14:49

there's some extent i think exuviae came to

14:51

shot looking for pity and

14:54

, shot in his role is true sellers

14:57

not willing to give him that so

14:59

have read from that point the tell

15:01

us who stitch six first shot a speaking first

15:03

to xavier excuses

15:06

is all you got lately cousin xavier

15:09

sucked his teeth and look after side i

15:11

go ahead no you go ahead

15:14

roman up in here late like is your name on

15:16

the front of this bilton like don't owe

15:18

me for giving you this job and the first place

15:21

soon as you got comfortable you just start coming

15:23

and going when please that you family

15:25

and i said nothing today

15:28

that always you late again but you stolen was

15:30

some broke down dog like this is one of them restaurants

15:32

down the street with water bowl out front and

15:35

you have the nerve to come in here and ask me

15:37

what you should do negro please

15:40

what is your problem know my problem

15:43

is you how many your whining

15:45

because you got some headaches of against us whining

15:49

did i mumbled nine the

15:52

like you don't know this as he tapped his temple

15:55

this part again you don't want to

15:57

fight don't fight that's your okay

16:01

then i did open gym and sell out all the

16:03

other gentrifies in the neighborhood when

16:05

you're starting to go yoga classes i

16:07

want to make sure i sign up before you run out of spots

16:10

okay you got jokes net know what

16:12

else is funny you know one to admit

16:15

that you scared and enough like your pop's drooling

16:17

and prison on himself in home so

16:19

you put in on me to tell you stuff lama

16:22

don't

16:23

the subvert are reading some dialogue from

16:25

his novel after the lights go out where's

16:30

his dialogue come from i mean not just the scene

16:32

but there's lot of really rich

16:34

stuff in the book had he do

16:37

i think a as i tend be

16:39

an observer i ,

16:41

to listen to people speak speak

16:44

, when was kid

16:47

my dad used to just

16:49

take trips to the local

16:51

mall and sit and

16:54

just watch people and

16:56

observe and listen hum

16:59

for know the reason than it just sink

17:01

natural curiosity we

17:04

also talked about the fact is that i'm

17:06

mixed race and so for

17:09

me i don't want to speak for all mixers

17:11

people obviously cause we're not monolith but for

17:13

me as i was navigating my way

17:15

through adolescence i'm you

17:18

know we're already trying to figure out

17:20

where we belong just we

17:23

as human beings but when you mixed

17:25

race your there's a there's an added component

17:27

to that to find out where you fit in certain

17:30

certain aspects of society and society

17:32

and you know the term code switching becomes

17:34

a part of that you know you know you your

17:36

dialect to speak when you're with one

17:38

group and then you do the same for another and another

17:40

so a i think a lot of the dialogue

17:43

comes from that experience

17:46

i'm you know i mentioned in the introduction

17:48

that our characters xavier

17:50

that the aging martial arts fighter had

17:52

left groceries in his car overnight and

17:54

they had rotted because his because his

17:56

been damaged looked

17:58

at another piece that was something else

18:00

in car you want to just mentioned this and

18:03

where , comes from yeah so

18:06

he

18:07

finds a dog in the back

18:09

of his car that he rescued

18:13

as , was visiting his father

18:15

at the nursing home a as

18:17

as happens it's i'm nursing home sometimes

18:20

sometimes centers adoption centers will bring dogs

18:23

to to a for

18:25

the for the residents to spend some

18:27

time with com and

18:29

he did so because he

18:31

was worried about being about but

18:34

because of the trauma to his brain he

18:37

forgot the dog was in his car hum

18:40

and i did that not in order

18:42

to manipulate emotions because i know how well

18:45

as a dog owner myself know how most know we can

18:47

get about dogs and about harm coming

18:49

to them but i , it

18:51

was a poignant and

18:53

striking way to

18:55

emphasize how just how bad

18:57

things had gotten from right and

19:00

i will just reassure the audience the dog

19:02

is okay okay does not die

19:04

but was a rough night for the dog and he

19:06

and he urinated

19:08

and and deprecated in the car

19:10

and and then but but it was at

19:12

the other to sing sing about that is that

19:14

he was formerly a fighting done

19:17

by an aging fighter likes

19:19

of his yeah that's it eats the allegory

19:21

there was very there it's you

19:24

know even to the point where the the

19:26

dog had not eaten

19:29

for eaten great deal of time when it was

19:31

found by the rescue and

19:33

there's and parallel there in parallel sort and

19:35

hence weight cutting that takes place and in

19:38

mixed martial arts in order to

19:40

make a week last for face

19:42

let me reduce you we are speaking with john

19:45

virtue of his new novel is after

19:47

the lights go out to be back to talk more

19:49

after this short break they

19:51

davies mint this is fresh air

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air archive dot org

20:22

this is fresh air and were speaking with writer john

20:24

virtue of his new novel tells the story

20:26

of a veteran mixed martial arts fighter

20:28

struggling to revive his career while

20:31

dealing with personal and family issues

20:33

that involve racial identity and the effects of

20:35

dementia virtues book is after

20:37

the lights go out i'm

20:41

a lot of is this story is about

20:43

race and one way we

20:45

learn about it is about it saviors

20:47

father tell us about him sam

20:49

sam was

20:52

a a coach as well as a father

20:54

for xavier and

20:56

as such

20:57

he had a bond with his son that he didn't

20:59

quite have with mother however

21:02

, as sam

21:04

is in throes of his

21:07

late stage alzheimer's some of

21:09

the filters that he may have had in place while

21:11

married to exam years black mother

21:13

are beginning to fall away and quite

21:15

dramatic ways ways

21:18

because he gave years mother

21:20

left his family when nick savior

21:22

was a teenager xavier cares lot

21:24

of resentment for her but

21:27

he's discovering through the fog of his brain

21:29

trauma that is memories

21:31

about his mother and why she left

21:34

and actually memories about his father may

21:36

not be quite so accurate right

21:38

so he goes to the nursing home and

21:41

know the his father as it is angry

21:43

he's talking about you people from referring some

21:45

of people who care for him and then we

21:47

meet this woman mrs thomas who's and administrator

21:50

and administrator home though i bet is like lot of people

21:52

you do and your work as of his therapist absolute

21:55

tell us what she tells

21:57

exam your about what his father's mundo

22:00

those she's she's one of my favorite

22:02

characters as well i than oh that sounds weird

22:04

say that isn't as a writer but she's

22:06

also truesdell she down the

22:08

gravy or exactly what is happening is the

22:10

as that sam is her using horrific

22:13

racist language to many of her

22:15

staff and has become even physically

22:17

violent at some points in the throes

22:19

of his dementia and exhibit

22:21

reviews to believe it until ,

22:23

gets to see it for himself right i'm

22:26

you know this

22:28

race relations and racial identity or

22:30

so much a part of his books it

22:32

, also part of your but a big theme in

22:34

your first novel from three fifths

22:37

tell us a little bit about your own background

22:39

know kind what what where you live what kind of neighborhood

22:41

yeah what your parents were like so so

22:44

father's black my mother's white you know

22:46

i grew up and and growing up mixed

22:48

race while i'd i think

22:50

there were there great benefits

22:52

to it there were also some challenges to it

22:55

before of navigating those spaces

22:58

as an adolescent and than the even as an adult

23:02

the found that as i got older as an adult

23:04

i was doing more exploring and interrogating

23:08

identity and you know

23:10

one of the things that was interesting for me

23:12

is that while my my father

23:14

continues to wear this very big proud

23:16

natural afro my

23:18

, was not like my father's my hair was

23:21

wavy , but much more straight

23:24

so i had lot of those what

23:26

are you anyway questions and

23:28

when you get that question asked

23:30

of you often enough you start asked question

23:32

of yourself and the kids

23:34

at school with as kids school adults

23:37

people adults people very comfortable asking

23:39

that question it wasn't until

23:41

i lost my hair and started

23:43

saving it myself that

23:46

those external perceptions of

23:48

of what i was changed

23:52

that started to shape sort of my internal

23:54

perception so both recess

23:56

and after lights go out are not

23:58

about and during anything

24:01

about race they're they're asking questions

24:03

and interrogating selfishly for

24:05

me but hopefully also for

24:07

people who are like me that that may have

24:09

the same questions right anything a lot of people

24:11

who ask those questions and

24:14

my work a little more deeply about how would

24:16

you answer the question what was after

24:18

what are you work it at first

24:20

eight when i was young enough not to

24:22

really understand depth of that

24:24

question i would tell them mean i

24:26

would say i'm by you know my father's life

24:28

my mother's white i got to

24:30

point where when i understood

24:33

sort of the layers

24:35

to that question i would say it a

24:37

human being you know it's it's not

24:39

about what i am as who

24:41

you mean care to exam your he's

24:44

been trying revive his fight for me or his

24:46

mom who was black had left the family years

24:49

before and circumstances that kinda resented

24:51

her for but that ,

24:53

has the novel progress as and his dad isn't a

24:55

nursing home home he's

24:58

begun to show evidence of

25:00

very racist thoughts

25:02

he's living in his death house in

25:04

montgomery county which is largely white suburban

25:06

philadelphia and he goes there was a

25:08

neighbor read whatever

25:10

, does have with must withdraw with

25:12

race tell us about ray ray was not

25:15

a not pleasant mans eggs a viewer

25:17

see see minute he saw

25:19

him in in questioned

25:21

his presence in his neighborhood i

25:23

can tell you that came from life experience

25:26

i was gonna ask that even yeah yeah yeah

25:28

same thing happened to me in the

25:30

within the first week that my wife that moved

25:32

into the neighbor in which we currently

25:34

live some as i was walking

25:36

my dog down the streets someone

25:40

accosted someone about making sure that i picked

25:42

up after that dog to which of course

25:44

which answered depth of course i would do that and

25:47

then was followed up with the do you even live

25:49

here so yeah

25:52

, re gonna have special place in

25:54

the book right in

25:57

reyes consistent throughout have to read

25:59

the book

26:00

nothing else you can exhibit

26:02

, has an encounter which raise

26:05

generates with police officers and now

26:07

i'm saviors gone in and and

26:10

you mentioned one of the effects of the brain trauma is

26:13

mood swings and sometimes rage

26:15

and he'd gotten angry and from some suffer

26:17

menace part front ray calls the police couple

26:19

police officers show up

26:21

they're kind of tensely hovering

26:24

their hands over there service weapons

26:26

mean it ends without violence is

26:29

this the kind thing you experienced know that

26:31

story i lifted from a

26:33

from a a experience of or

26:35

of close friend i'm

26:37

you know when when he related

26:39

the story to me was it

26:41

it i mean it it raised goosebumps on

26:43

my arms and and one of reasons i included

26:45

it here was because we've

26:49

seen so much trauma

26:51

and and horrible things the

26:53

news about george floyd

26:55

and and all these other instances to

26:58

too many to named count at this point but

27:01

there's still that distance of the screen

27:03

and the ability to turn ability off at some point

27:06

and and not empathizing

27:08

the same way that we do when we're we're

27:11

in book and we're sort of inhabiting this characters

27:13

life let me reintroduce

27:16

your yeah we're speaking with john virtue of his new

27:18

novel is after the lights go out

27:20

will continue our conversation after the short

27:22

break this is fresh air

27:25

this message comes from npr sponsor

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dot com for details

28:01

you know it's interesting

28:03

the exhibitors trainer is his cousin

28:05

who's goes where the nickname shot and com

28:08

and there's

28:10

their dialogue and in their conversations

28:12

developed in the book we learned that shot tells

28:15

him that when he was a youngster when

28:17

xavier was a youngster that

28:19

, would cut

28:22

have to help him out because he would

28:24

get picked on because exam

28:26

your was from was mixed race family

28:28

was lighter skinned and so

28:31

people get some some some people would pick

28:33

on because thought he wasn't really black on black

28:35

enough for tough enough or whatever and

28:37

shot would have to com and helping

28:39

out that one the reason shop got him in defied

28:41

couldn't really needed to learn to defend himself

28:43

rifles any that based your own experience to

28:46

, extent i you know it again is

28:48

the that the navigating of those faces

28:51

can be very challenging and ah

28:53

i was not athletic in school

28:55

i was and i was certainly not fighter was nothing

28:57

there was no no tough kid kid

29:01

you know i didn't have sort

29:03

of the escape of sports or

29:05

the community of sports you know i

29:07

had to fi i found community in different ways

29:10

to friends that were fans of comic

29:12

books or friends that were fans of

29:14

books or video games that kind thing so i see

29:16

yeah it was i

29:19

there was part of me that wished i had that

29:22

safety net kind of of being

29:24

in those of being someone

29:26

who could be more physical or or

29:29

have felt like someone there to protect themselves

29:31

and and so was in high school where i first

29:35

got into taekwondo and and really got

29:37

into martial arts and things i dabbled still sort of

29:39

even though there are other people there's still very individual

29:42

sports so didn't quite have that same sense of community

29:46

there

29:46

yeah think that didn't make you feel more secure

29:49

in yourself physically like you can handle yourself if

29:51

he had a new engine you know i saw i thought

29:53

it would but it didn't system i'm

29:56

not sure much you want to say about the

29:58

mysterious missing black

30:01

mother up in this story i

30:03

mean she does emerge and we learn

30:05

lot more about it but i think it's

30:07

fair say one the things

30:09

we learned is that the racism

30:12

in exam years father which

30:14

he exhibits now and now and

30:16

way in a nursing home where yells at the

30:18

black staff there that

30:21

that it didn't just emerged that and it had been

30:23

there all along and and and had showed

30:25

up in some way or another as the

30:27

marriage and , feel like this

30:30

isn't some ways kind the heart the story isn't it

30:32

yeah you know we

30:35

with i've talked to many people about

30:37

the idea that that no i have

30:39

this great love for mixed martial arts it

30:42

really was a bridge to tell another

30:44

story i'm you know this this

30:46

parallel story about dementia

30:49

in someone younger dimension

30:51

someone older and and the things that get revealed

30:53

through that so xavier has to

30:55

kind of

30:57

then again i'm older people read the book and see

30:59

how this emerging as but he learns a lot

31:01

more about his mother and that's really touching

31:04

part of the story but i guess what's

31:06

guess what's what's here is how

31:09

you know people can be in

31:11

in friendships even close friendships

31:13

or even in marriage with someone who

31:16

, from a different background or a different race

31:19

and think that they free

31:21

of prejudice or people assume that

31:23

that's the case but in fact there are really very

31:26

deep seated feelings

31:29

that emerge cnn did

31:32

did you have this may be

31:34

may complete region and make no sense but

31:36

since your parents were mixed race wonder if

31:39

you ever saw in the have ever heard of any of that

31:41

between your parents not to the

31:43

extent that we see here and here and

31:45

i think this is a

31:47

for me in a novel of interrogations

31:50

you know i think there's there is still

31:53

the narrative that that people like

31:56

to convey that

31:59

i am i racist i black friends

32:01

i can be racist a married to a black person i

32:03

do know i can't say and and it just doesn't obviously

32:05

isn't is not just limited to

32:07

to black and whites but

32:09

, there are people that will still continue to to

32:11

say things like that and and wanted to

32:14

ah i wanted to i wanted

32:16

at that siri and and

32:19

question the

32:21

that the truth behind that idea while

32:24

, the same time trying not to wag

32:26

singer about it and say you know

32:29

that i have definitive answers about that

32:31

day if the if that makes sense friend

32:33

and it's

32:35

it's there in our human relationships and

32:37

you know that the thing that's that's a little hard

32:39

is that in

32:41

fact exhibit expresses this one when the

32:43

people at the nursing home tell him that his father

32:45

has been doing and saying racist things

32:47

about staff has are you kidding

32:50

look at me do you think that this

32:52

that did my guy was a closet racists and it comes

32:54

out now that filter is often i

32:56

think it's it's probably a little hard for

32:58

us to think well you you could have married a black

33:00

woman and still have these really

33:03

the health of violently racist

33:05

beliefs most of

33:08

that did you have about someone in mind

33:10

for creating sam or well

33:12

, stories not not

33:14

one person know but but multiple

33:16

stories of there's

33:19

a large percentage of black women that work

33:21

in the school nurses nursing setting and

33:24

i've heard story upon story of

33:28

these women taking care of

33:31

white patients and residents who

33:33

are arguably in most vulnerable

33:36

state of their lives and

33:38

in need of this significant

33:41

care and yeah hurling

33:43

the most vile and and

33:47

venomous things to

33:49

these people that are to do to these women

33:51

that are that caring for

33:53

them hit trying

33:55

to preserve their dignity while

33:57

they seem have no respect for their dignity and

34:00

i had a we don't talk about it's

34:03

it is they do they those women are and

34:05

unsung heroes and

34:07

ah having worked in the healthcare

34:09

procession i saw the responsibility

34:12

to to

34:13

highlight that story make that know there

34:16

some short chapters in the book which

34:18

written in boldface type

34:21

type there's another voice speaking

34:23

to each savior about his circumstance

34:25

in ways that are kind of taunting

34:28

him you know kind of pointing out truths

34:30

or at least police that he doesn't want

34:32

face

34:34

who is this what's happening here well

34:36

it's gravy ah one

34:38

of the hallmarks

34:41

of that type of brain trauma

34:44

is , there is some deterioration

34:47

of inhibition right there the

34:49

the filters that we set ourselves whether

34:51

be the frontal lobe or whatever part of the brain

34:54

and the

34:56

me you know when when

34:58

we've heard some of these awful ,

35:00

about athletes who has either

35:04

harm themselves or have taken the ultimate

35:06

step of ultimate step their own lives i

35:09

had to wonder about what must have been

35:13

going on in their minds before those

35:15

things happened and it is

35:17

made sense to me to imagine that there there

35:19

must have been something

35:21

that almost felt like disembodied voice

35:23

that was still them that

35:25

was telling them these things that ah

35:29

that were things that thoughts that they may

35:31

have actually had but they pushed down because

35:33

they weren't they thoughts to they should have fried

35:35

one of the sentence in rather stone was

35:38

when he's talking about the fight game

35:42

and says to save your violence is in our

35:44

nature homeboy violence build empires

35:46

violence destroys tyranny violence

35:48

is the only way forward and it's in

35:50

our dna it's damn

35:52

sure in yours further

35:56

says that thats why people love the sport because

35:58

we're all kind of and wells at root

36:00

a is

36:03

that the rage that comes from brain

36:05

trauma

36:06

or is that federal something makes

36:08

sense to and some primal ,

36:11

way again one of those things i was interrogating

36:13

because a and and again

36:15

i don't his that their voices not just referring

36:17

you know that as it goes on it's not just referring

36:19

to mixed martial arts it's for it's referring all

36:21

the sports we watch mean even even

36:23

and nascar i mean when when

36:25

two people cheer the loudest are when people on

36:27

their feet on city's for if it crashes

36:30

so i you know it's

36:32

not that i have this answer that this is why

36:34

we watch those things but find

36:37

myself as someone who worked in sports

36:39

medicine i i i have a love hate relationship

36:42

with live sports that i watched you know

36:44

i love the skill and

36:46

the artistry in the and the discipline that takes

36:49

to become professional athletes but

36:51

for some the sports i enjoy i also know that

36:53

i see i know the cost and

36:55

so that voice and that passage

36:57

in particular is is kind of me

36:59

interrogating woo hoo if i know

37:02

how bad is for them why

37:04

do i still watch it and why do why still enjoy

37:06

it that

37:08

that really is is is what that's about

37:10

it it's questioning vote for myself

37:13

and maybe raising the question for others about

37:16

why we why we have this enjoyment

37:18

from for these sports that people

37:21

now since george floyd

37:23

i mean there's been this movement

37:26

for social justice and the notion

37:28

of white privilege is

37:30

and the extent to which white

37:33

people don't

37:35

think about those

37:37

the ways that they are historically

37:39

privileged and you know

37:41

some of their attitudes that they might not be

37:44

so conscious of are important

37:48

this obviously connects to some of the ideas

37:50

in your blocks

37:51

again my my whole goal

37:53

and writing about this topic is is

37:56

to generate conversation because

37:58

i think conversations or work not

38:00

having enough of i

38:03

think when when we decide that we

38:05

have the answers is

38:07

when conversation get

38:09

stopped selfishly stopped selfishly for me

38:11

first these questions and conversations

38:14

are again self interrogation

38:16

for me that

38:18

i know that i'm not the only

38:20

one that has these questions and so

38:23

it's my hope that that by writing

38:25

to these subjects that others

38:27

consider these these ideas and and questions

38:30

and and maybe we we have a document

38:32

the

38:32

john ritter thanks so much for speaking with steaks

38:34

so much rather me this is great non

38:37

voters new novel is after the

38:39

lights go out coming ,

38:41

critic nick wilde looks at three podcasts

38:43

that take the approach and techniques of reality

38:46

tv into the audio world this

38:48

, air there's no

38:50

denying that reality television is

38:52

widely popular been culturally influential

38:56

and when it comes to podcasts that influence

38:58

is increasingly taking the form of

39:00

imitation podcast critic

39:02

nicoise looks at the trend of podcasts

39:05

trying to import the appeal of reality

39:07

tv there's no

39:09

it's not radical to say that reality

39:11

television sits at heart of american

39:13

culture these days this

39:15

doesn't bother me as much as some others it

39:18

is what it is personally

39:20

i'm a huge consumer or reality television

39:23

and on my last year days i'd even argue

39:25

that brothers below deck constitutes high

39:27

art course the

39:29

weren't reality reality television

39:31

is misnomer any ruler

39:34

and will be documentary instead

39:36

what do you don't or supplies is reality

39:38

as a matter fact theme park people

39:40

place in situations designed to extract

39:43

heightened emotions from everyone involved you

39:46

get conflict drama and

39:48

some semblance of narrative arc however

39:50

contrived and if you're really lucky

39:52

you also get the sublime a funhouse

39:55

window into the primordial human experience

39:59

the protests world the abundant shows

40:01

about reality television mostly

40:04

to form of episode recaps and industry news

40:06

i figure it is do let let months bachelor party

40:09

squid hard enough though and you'll also

40:11

notice a mini trend podcast trying

40:13

to capitalize on reality television's popularity

40:16

more directly by emulating

40:18

the genres concedes mechanics and

40:20

style among

40:22

them is a pike as from earlier this year called

40:24

this is dating which tries to adapt

40:27

to reality dating so the series

40:29

is created by magnificent noise the

40:31

studio behind star psychotherapists as

40:33

the pearls array of popular therapy

40:35

session podcasts which are themselves

40:38

inspired by reality television this

40:41

is dating part social guide and part

40:43

control experiments is constructed around

40:45

virtual blind dates that are arranged

40:47

produced and mediated by producers

40:49

and a dating coach a o

40:54

a possible mm

40:57

colleen a nice the

40:59

un estimates too ah

41:05

right if it's been awhile since you've been on a first

41:07

date i'll let you in on something lot

41:10

of them just like this really

41:12

awkward they're completely focus

41:14

on the small talk they're sitting in shallow

41:16

and of a conversational pool

41:19

there's questions like what do you do

41:21

where you live how many siblings

41:24

do as people never really get to

41:26

know each other they're just exchanging information

41:28

so that kind of push them of hildebrand

41:31

the poor we've decided to play fairy

41:33

godmothers to their dates more

41:35

recently

41:36

the new podcast called being trans presents

41:39

a more explicit relationship with

41:41

it's reality tv inspirations this

41:43

my and will series follows a group

41:46

of trans individuals as they go about their

41:48

lives in los angeles reality

41:50

tv fans work and have to use of zone trips

41:53

the personally concocted social situations

41:55

bouncy background music and

41:57

many listeners who respond well to the shows

41:59

and since of normalizing the can't experience

42:02

but being trans ultimately feels like a

42:04

rough truth

42:05

even as it yields occasional moments

42:07

of you human drama

42:09

like this one where site or ten

42:11

a non binary legal systems discovers

42:13

on tape that their partner thinks of himself

42:16

a street are you know how

42:18

do like how do you identify

42:26

oh yeah

42:30

i know yeah

42:34

when robert answer just

42:36

question that the

42:38

identify the the straight guy you

42:40

honestly it

42:42

let me know that is ben be has

42:44

fundamentally regardless

42:46

how either of us identify

42:48

our relationship is queer relationship is

42:50

t awkward because it's not courses

42:53

in that robert i have really had this

42:55

curious gap between emerging cohort of

42:57

reality podcasts and the television

43:00

phenomenon there and stared back

43:02

when we talk about reality television were

43:04

usually not referring to what looks like buddhists

43:06

feels like is so marked

43:09

for contrivance and more than that not the

43:11

insinuation of miss we

43:13

turn to reality know for reality the

43:15

for even testicle reality

43:18

that spirit isn't quite present in

43:20

his podcast where the focus

43:22

is still very much on realism as

43:25

result it's hard not to come away with the

43:27

feeling that these are sweet nature documentaries

43:29

trying to pass themselves off something

43:31

sexier this month

43:33

we'll see the release of walk of provincetown

43:36

a podcast follows me shrek a bully documentary

43:39

and as you shadows a group of individuals

43:41

over a summer in provincetown the seaside

43:43

haven for the queer community

43:46

before i'd even arrived in p town i'd

43:48

heard of gaia people were

43:50

saying that she's gonna be the it girl of the

43:52

summer remember thinking

43:54

what does it mean to

43:55

the a girl one girl she's

43:57

gorgeous

44:00

he just puts a lot of if or them in can see

44:02

people can see a people like first have the charisma

44:05

poor guy is a phenomenon that

44:07

seen on blasted into town

44:10

a couple years ago and

44:12

you know she appears at just right

44:14

moment have you seen a perform on tuesday

44:16

nights at the club

44:18

i met when she first got here that she was good

44:20

but she's really perfected her crap

44:22

and her voice

44:23

after living and working in town for nearly

44:25

decade this summer she's getting

44:27

her break the naturalistic

44:29

contemplate of were

44:31

wonder has more in common were very

44:33

taste though audio series like raider diaries

44:36

then say mtv the real

44:38

world however that

44:40

doesn't solve walk into province towns distributor

44:42

for marketing show as reality television

44:44

spared it's hard

44:47

not be a little frustrated at tactic

44:49

clearly meant to attract fans of reality television

44:52

who wouldn't ordinarily consider trying a protest

44:55

the these shows aren't likely served

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well but mismatch association

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net documentaries be documentaries

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there's nothing wrong with

45:04

and when a time finally comes for podcasting to actually

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get his own real housewives the

45:08

aftermath be missed the

45:10

acquire his podcast critic for new york

45:13

magazine and vulture he reviewed

45:15

the podcast this is dating being

45:17

trans and welcome to province town

45:20

on , show a parable about

45:22

partisanship we talk with matt

45:24

johnson after writing several novels

45:27

about race in america he's written a satirical

45:29

novel said in the future on a moon

45:31

of jupiter and an artificial ecosystem

45:34

designed to replicate life on earth

45:37

is also copied some of the worst aspects

45:39

of america's class system and politics

45:42

system and you can join us

45:47

the pressures executive producers danny miller

45:49

our technical director an engineer is audrey

45:52

bentham we had additional engineering help

45:54

from our banks are interviews and

45:56

reviews are produced and edited by amy

45:58

salad solas myers sam brinker

46:00

more in friends who heidi some on teresa

46:02

madman and marie bolder nato the

46:05

challenge since kelly jo wool from

46:07

and susan yakunin d or

46:09

digital media producer is my li se viene

46:11

esper roberto [unk] och directs

46:13

the show for terry gross i'm

46:15

dave davies