0:00

This is Hemant and Jessica and you're listening

0:02

to the friendly atheist podcast Please go to

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patreon.com slash friendly

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atheist podcast to support the show.

0:09

We have many things to discuss

0:11

Oh, yeah. Oh, it'll be fun. How

0:13

are you feel? Everyone wants to everyone's

0:15

very concerned about you Are you doing better

0:17

from last?

0:18

No, I mean, no, we lost

0:20

another horse unfortunately It's

0:23

the pits a bit it was a border horse who's somebody's personal

0:25

horse which is like a

0:27

Different flavor of terrible because she's had

0:29

him for like 15 years and

0:31

it was miserable So anyway things

0:34

still bad on the grife family

0:36

front, but thank you for your hashtag

0:39

thoughts and prayers

0:41

Well, I hope things get better I

0:43

will cheer you up with with

0:46

all sorts of things here I'm

0:48

gonna start this week by talking

0:51

once again about our friend Mike Johnson

0:53

the speaker of the house Because

0:55

of I've been very amused

0:58

for the past week, I mean everything is awful with

1:00

him. I've been very amused watching mainstream

1:03

media pundits commentators

1:06

They're very shocked by how

1:08

openly Christian nationalist this guy is

1:11

But it means they're all hearing about David Barton

1:13

the pseudo historian for like the first time They're

1:16

like this guy likes this dude named David

1:18

Barton. And did you all know he's really

1:20

messed up and lies to everyone It's like yes,

1:23

I have known this for a while

1:24

Oh, do you think we're gonna get into a situation

1:27

like with Trump where he could have just like stayed

1:29

quiet and no We would ever scrutinized

1:31

him. Yeah, but now he's about to shine a spotlight on

1:33

his particular brand of

1:35

quick bananas Yes, he and his wife

1:37

had a podcast 69 episodes

1:40

nice and they took it all down real

1:42

fast not before it was saved by everybody

1:45

But like that's yes, it's the scrutiny

1:48

doesn't make him look good. It's him and his wife discussing

1:50

Jesus shit for Episodes

1:53

and episodes and politics, but again,

1:55

they just took it down because they don't think they're ready for

1:57

the scrutiny It's also been interesting to hear

1:59

commentators are like, did you all

2:02

know this guy supports like this

2:04

creationist theme park

2:06

in Kentucky? Like my friend.

2:09

We've been discussing this for many years. Welcome.

2:12

The national spotlight is upon you. Welcome

2:14

to the club. Anyway, there's one aspect

2:17

of it though, of Mike Johnson's likes

2:20

and life and everything that

2:22

is getting scrutiny that I've really

2:24

enjoyed because I don't think people realize how batch of crazy

2:27

it is. And it's beyond the typical church

2:29

state separation stuff, because it's not

2:31

about creationism or whatnot. It

2:34

is his marriage to his wife, Kelly

2:36

Johnson, because it's not

2:38

a marriage like a typical marriage.

2:41

It's a special marriage called a

2:43

covenant marriage, and

2:45

it's better than everyone else's marriages.

2:48

Oh, Jesus. Yeah. Okay. Can I just make

2:50

a prediction? Yes. She

2:53

was underage when she committed to

2:55

this person.

2:56

I'm not.

2:58

That's a fair guess because that does happen

3:00

in some evangelical circles. So we don't have

3:02

proof that this is the case. That's not the case. Okay,

3:04

hit me. But here's the backstory

3:07

about this covenant marriage thing. In 1997,

3:10

when conservative Christians were all

3:12

up on every culture war thing you could imagine,

3:15

and they see rising. In 1997, they

3:18

see rising divorce rates. Conservatives

3:20

in Louisiana passed a law

3:23

that give couples, I mean straight couples,

3:25

the option of choosing a covenant

3:28

marriage under the law. You can have a regular marriage,

3:31

and that's fine. Nothing changes. Or you

3:33

can choose. It's either or, it's not a both-hand. Correct.

3:35

Okay. You can have your regular marriage, but if you want to

3:38

up it, you can have a covenant marriage.

3:40

Fucking dork. Yes. And

3:42

in essence, this is a marriage contract with

3:45

stricter rules. Because unlike

3:47

the marriage of normies, this

3:50

one would be a lot harder to break.

3:53

This marriage contract would be a lot harder

3:55

to break. And I'm going

3:57

to tell you what it consists of in a bit.

3:59

And when you say,

3:59

I just really want to just

4:02

put a pin into it's really hard to

4:04

break for both parties. Yes.

4:07

Is it equally easy for both parties to break it? It's

4:09

not that it's bad specifically for women.

4:12

No, it's hard for both people to

4:14

break it. But inevitably that's going to hurt

4:17

women more. Obviously, because of the patriarch.

4:19

Yes. So like more than anything, this

4:22

is really just a way for conservative Christians

4:24

to send a message that their

4:26

marriages, because they choose covenant

4:28

marriages, are stronger than

4:31

all the rest of you people's. That's

4:34

what this is really all about, having

4:36

this option on the table.

4:38

I guess I just am confused

4:41

about

4:43

what the goal is. That's

4:45

the goal. To have the best marriage. It's to show divorces,

4:47

divorce rates are up. Why? Because

4:50

we allow anyone to get married. But if you

4:52

love Jesus and you're pressured

4:54

to choose a covenant marriage, your

4:57

union will be stronger and

4:59

it'll be a lot harder for you to get divorced.

5:02

And that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to protect

5:04

the family. We're trying to trap

5:05

people into marriages, even

5:08

if it becomes clear that the relationship

5:09

is not viable or

5:12

even dangerous for one of the parties. That's where I'm going

5:14

with it. Because of the parties, how is that said, Nancy? Here's

5:16

what the rules of covenant marriage are.

5:19

Again, this is passed as a law in Louisiana

5:22

in 97, where you have the option of choosing

5:24

this. Any couple that enters into a covenant marriage,

5:27

they are required to go through premarital

5:30

counseling, which, all right, whatever.

5:32

They're probably Jesus counselors, but they

5:34

don't have to be. More importantly

5:37

though, the only way they're allowed

5:39

to end their marriage is if

5:41

there is an instance of adultery,

5:45

abuse, abandonment,

5:47

or a lengthy separation. So

5:50

if someone... It sounds like

5:53

all regular reasons that people get divorced

5:55

all the time. With one very big exception

5:57

to the rule. Which one was it? I don't love

5:59

you.

5:59

anymore. So

6:02

if you're unhappy in your

6:04

marriage... Oh that's not enough.

6:06

That's not enough anymore. So what do

6:08

they call it? Mutual... mutual...

6:11

something. Are you talking about the celebrity

6:13

one? Like conscious, uncoupling... Not

6:15

conscious, uncoupling. That was Gwyneth Paltrow's none. Yeah, yeah,

6:17

yeah. Irreconcilable differences. Right, because

6:20

they're trying to stop no-fault divorces

6:23

here. I pulled that from the attic of my

6:25

brain. I mean the law in pretty much any state right

6:27

now is if you want to get a divorce all

6:29

that has to happen is one of you says I want

6:31

a divorce and the the law

6:34

side of things says all right fine then

6:36

you it's on you maybe we have a

6:39

lawyer figure out who gets what and you got to

6:42

work that out but in general we're

6:44

not gonna yeah that's between the couple we're not

6:46

gonna get in the way if you want to get a divorce the

6:48

covenant marriage says no unless there's a really

6:51

good reason and by really good reason they set

6:54

out to define those right off the bat

6:56

right you are stuck in the marriage

6:59

and if you're not in love with each other and if

7:01

you just want out of the marriage

7:04

you can't leave cool now

7:07

for other reasons so you mentioned like you

7:09

suggested is they're gonna trap someone in well

7:11

if they're in an abusive relationship no the

7:13

covenant marriage you can still get out of it if

7:16

there's adultery going on or

7:18

your husband disappears and you can't find him anymore

7:20

or vice versa or the wife disappears you

7:22

can leave for those reasons but if you're just

7:25

unhappy nope yeah you

7:27

were raising your

7:27

hey they say it's abuse

7:30

is occurring yeah any chance that

7:32

they have the same definition of abuse that

7:34

I have

7:35

I wondered about that myself there is no definition

7:38

of abuse but I did not

7:40

find anything that said like if it's emotionally

7:42

abusive or if it's physically abusive

7:44

but like this it doesn't count I

7:46

didn't see anything like that they just say abuse

7:49

so if a person says there is abuse

7:51

they can get out of this

7:52

because if you are say

7:54

I don't know hypothetically or religion that doesn't

7:57

believe a man can rape his wife then

7:59

you're definitely of abuse is probably gonna

8:01

be pretty different than mine.

8:03

And again, because it just says abuse

8:06

in the law itself, and because

8:08

they cannot bring religion into it, I feel

8:11

like if someone just

8:13

said, I am the victim of abuse,

8:16

that would count. However, keep in mind.

8:18

Have you been

8:19

in the world for long? No. Because

8:21

that never works. Sure, sure, sure.

8:23

But if that happens, they could get out of this

8:25

contract. However, you're assuming

8:27

that a partner in this union

8:30

would be willing to go to government

8:32

officials, some authority, and

8:34

say, I am the victim of abuse, which

8:37

is not an easy thing to ask anybody for,

8:39

because a lot of people don't want to do that.

8:42

Maybe they're prevented from doing that

8:44

for a variety of reasons, or they're afraid

8:46

that if I say this, this will have repercussions.

8:49

I mean, this is just a lifelong

8:51

version of why didn't you fight back harder?

8:54

Yeah. You have like, oh, you're in

8:56

an abusive relationship. The onus

8:59

is on you and only you to fix

9:01

this situation. And don't worry, if

9:03

you do have the courage to go

9:06

tell an authority figure, they probably

9:08

won't believe you. Anyone who say do believe you,

9:10

they'll probably side with your husband anyway.

9:12

So you're pointing out a lot

9:15

of the issues people have brought up about covenant

9:17

marriages, but the idea here,

9:19

the idea here, is that we just

9:21

don't want to make it easy for people to

9:23

get a divorce. So the Johnsons, Mike

9:26

Johnson and his wife, they were married in 1999, a

9:29

couple of years after this law went into effect. But

9:31

when all the articles started coming out about

9:34

covenant marriage and stuff like that in

9:36

Louisiana,

9:37

they were pretty

9:38

much the spokespeople in favor

9:41

of it. They were one of the

9:43

most prominent couples to get hitched under

9:45

the new law. Johnson

9:48

was a law student at the time. Are there

9:49

benefits

9:51

or just- Nope, just

9:53

in your head. An extra ribbon gets pinned

9:55

to your chest. Yes, that's exactly it. And it only

9:58

works in church. Like, it doesn't- matter

10:00

to the outside world, you just

10:02

feel better about your union. So

10:05

like at the time, Johnson was a law student.

10:07

He helped draft the law. You know, Tony

10:09

Perkins, the hate group leader for Liberty Council.

10:12

He was then a Louisiana state

10:14

legislator. He's the guy who wrote

10:16

the law and got it passed. And

10:19

one of the things then 28 year

10:21

old Mike Johnson said at the time,

10:23

in my generation, all we've ever

10:25

known is the no fault scheme.

10:28

Talking about divorces, the scheme

10:30

and any deviation from that seems like

10:33

a radical move. But, and

10:35

because so few people have chosen

10:37

covenant marriage in Louisiana, it

10:39

seems like an unpopular choice. It's

10:42

not unpopular. It's just unknown.

10:44

Once the message is out there, a whole

10:47

lot more people will choose it. To what

10:49

end? That they'll have stronger

10:51

marriages and like they'll come to church.

10:54

That's, I think where they're going

10:55

with it. Okay. So if these people are only

10:58

into like strong marriages as like the

11:00

foundation of humanity,

11:01

what are we saying

11:04

about Republicans who are,

11:06

I don't know, say thrice divorce.

11:07

Yeah.

11:09

Maybe wait one of their wives

11:11

while they were

11:12

pregnant or yeah, or, or, I don't know,

11:13

say you left your wife who's on

11:19

her deathbed

11:21

for another wife.

11:22

Newt Gingrich. Newt Gingrich.

11:24

Yeah. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter

11:26

because hypocrisy doesn't play into religious

11:29

rights rhetoric.

11:30

I guess those are the things that I find

11:32

really puzzling is the, well,

11:34

no,

11:34

I shouldn't because they can permit allies and all that shit. Republicans

11:37

are all for strong straight

11:39

marriages unless they're

11:42

to like relatives, unless

11:43

they're unless it gets

11:45

in the way of everything you want.

11:46

In which case, who cares? We'll just look

11:48

the other way.

11:49

It's very, it's all of a piece

11:51

because it's all the same thing as the

11:54

woman who's a protester at Planned Parenthood

11:56

and then brings her daughter and to get an abortion

11:59

because you don't understand.

11:59

They're called pastors. They're

12:02

called pastors. I

12:05

find the hypocrisy to be particularly

12:07

appalling.

12:07

Oh yeah. So, Johnson, Mike

12:09

Johnson at the time, got a covenant marriage. He

12:12

was a spokesperson in favor of it. The idea

12:14

in Louisiana was, if we can pass this law,

12:16

which they did, everyone else

12:18

in the country will follow our lead,

12:21

and everyone will try to get this.

12:22

Why do

12:24

they think people want to do this? What is going

12:26

on, Hemant?

12:27

To push back against a liberal

12:29

culture that allows divorces

12:32

to occur, which they say hurts the family, and

12:34

so they want to prevent divorces, because they think

12:36

two people living in an unhappy marriage is better

12:39

than two people moving

12:41

on with their lives after getting a divorce. They think

12:44

the unhappy marriage is better for the kids. They want

12:46

that to

12:46

happen nationwide. It feels very, like, star-bellied

12:49

snitches in a way of, like, I

12:51

want this thing to be popular because I want

12:53

it to be popular, and because I want it, it's

12:55

good and popular. Like, I don't understand

12:57

what

12:57

our goal is here. Their goal

13:00

is to make divorce hard, because they think two

13:02

people staying married forever is

13:05

always a good thing even if they're unhappy. So,

13:07

so, they said, if Mike

13:10

Johnson said this repeatedly, people don't

13:12

know about this. Once they realize what we have

13:14

done here, they will start wanting

13:16

this for themselves as well. But it turns

13:19

out, no one wanted this. No

13:21

one was pushing for it. The right, even

13:23

Republicans were not clamoring for this. In

13:26

fact, in 1997, after Louisiana

13:28

passed the law to allow this to happen, only

13:30

two other states passed similar laws, Arizona in 1998, Arkansas

13:33

in 2001, and even then... Maybe

13:37

they're just going alphabetical. Yeah. And

13:39

even then, under 2% of

13:42

married couples opted for

13:44

a covenant marriage. Most

13:46

couples are like, yeah, traditional marriage vows,

13:48

I'm fine. Because

13:49

they're also in a church, inordained

13:51

by God. If they wanted

13:52

to be, yeah. I just,

13:55

this is so, I am so sorry I

13:57

keep asking the same question, but it's just really,

13:59

really cool.

13:59

I don't get

14:02

what's confounding.

14:02

I, because, okay, when

14:05

they want to pass abortion laws like

14:07

this, I understand what the goal is,

14:09

right? They want to stop abortion.

14:12

And this is, they want to

14:14

stop

14:15

divorce, but by doing like

14:18

an opt into a harder

14:20

marriage, because the people who are

14:22

like, what other ways do they have to make it work?

14:24

Well, why wouldn't they go after

14:27

divorce law the way they go after

14:29

like federal

14:30

abortion law? They could, and they

14:32

would if they had a way to make it

14:34

work.

14:34

I just think the opt in nature of

14:36

this is so, it's going to defeat you before

14:39

you start. So you're going to make somebody who you

14:41

already think doesn't take marriage seriously,

14:43

which

14:43

is everybody apparently, you're going

14:45

to make them take extra steps

14:47

to make it harder to get

14:49

married and harder to get divorced. They actually

14:52

said no benefits whatsoever. Republicans

14:54

get no benefits whatsoever. There was, I think

14:56

they were hoping the pressure campaign would

14:58

work because let's say your fiance

15:01

says, Hey honey, we should get a covenant

15:03

marriage. And the husband was like, uh,

15:05

I don't really want to do that. Maybe

15:08

they should think twice before getting married at

15:10

all. Okay. Here's the problem

15:12

though. People can secretly get abortions,

15:14

right? Like I can go get an

15:17

abortion, be back at work on Monday. No

15:19

one's the wiser. If Mikey

15:22

and I divorce, everybody

15:24

is aware of it. So you can't even have

15:26

this. Donald Trump has definitely

15:28

paid for abortions, but we don't have proof of

15:31

it. We have proof he's been married thrice. So

15:34

that's, I think what I'm confused about is

15:36

the hypocrites can't

15:38

who hypocrites get divorced. Republicans

15:40

get divorced. Religious people get divorced. You can't hide

15:42

that.

15:43

So you can't

15:44

pretend that it never happened. They're

15:46

not trying to pretend it doesn't happen. They acknowledge it happens.

15:48

They're just trying to raise the bar for

15:51

what it takes to get divorced so

15:53

that people who are just unhappy think

15:55

twice, and maybe you bring Jesus

15:57

into your life as glue. So The

16:00

thing is, the Johnsons kept trying to make

16:02

such a thing here. Like, this

16:04

is from an AP article about this. Johnson

16:07

told the AP he was trying to persuade all

16:09

of his friends to convert their marriages

16:12

to covenant marriages. The

16:14

Johnsons became the poster couple for it.

16:16

They appeared on Good Morning America, like 20

16:19

years ago, talking to Diane Sawyer

16:21

about being among the few such covenant couples

16:23

in the country. When Sawyer asked Kelly,

16:26

the wife, about the decision, Kelly,

16:28

charming and smiling, made the idea seem

16:31

romantic, as if this was

16:33

a heightened version of marriage. Now,

16:36

as you pointed out, like, I don't care if it works

16:38

for them, whatever. The

16:40

problem with this contract, it assumes

16:43

that everyone else goes into

16:46

a marriage with, like, a foot already

16:48

out the door, which is not how it

16:50

works. Sometimes people take their marriage

16:52

vows the regular kind,

16:55

they take them seriously. Certainly at

16:57

first, they have every intention of staying

16:59

together. But and the fact that no-fault

17:02

divorce is an option doesn't

17:05

bother them because they probably don't

17:07

think they need it. But of course,

17:09

some people, a lot of people, eventually

17:12

do need that out. And

17:15

I am not here to judge anybody for what

17:17

reasons they give for why they

17:19

might want to leave a marriage. So

17:22

at that point, though, when they realize,

17:24

you know what, I'm really unhappy, or

17:26

I just I'm in love with someone else

17:28

or whatever it is at that point, those

17:31

covenant contracts make it harder

17:33

for them to get out of bad situations.

17:36

Because what if they are no longer happy? This

17:39

contract says two beds stay unhappy.

17:41

That's what you promised. The decision you

17:44

made when you were 20, or like 14

17:46

in some homeschooling, like doesn't matter.

17:52

What if they realize they were not compatible sexually

17:55

or emotionally, which happens a lot,

17:57

especially to couples who do a courtship.

18:00

That's really quick or that they get married like

18:02

you said very early because they're just trying

18:04

to get over the abstinence thing And this is the fastest

18:06

way to get to that path to get

18:08

over that like what if they realize only after

18:10

they got married We're not compatible

18:13

as we thought now a lot of couples would say

18:15

well you should date for a while You should

18:17

have sex for a while. Let's see if

18:19

that stuff works, and then you could decide to get married

18:22

Obviously that's not what conservative Christians want you

18:24

to do But that means you were choosing marriage

18:27

and a covenant marriage before you actually

18:29

know the person you are with What

18:32

if your beliefs about politics

18:34

about religion about your direction

18:36

in life? Whatever it is What if they change

18:39

he realized this person that I maybe fell

18:42

in love with at one point Mm-hmm.

18:44

I now regret that because I am NOT the person

18:46

I was anymore and What

18:49

if your allegations like you mentioned a

18:51

physical of emotional abuse are

18:53

either not believed by Relevant

18:57

government officials what if you were prevented

18:59

by threat or otherwise from telling

19:01

anyone about it too? Damn

19:04

bad because under a covenant contract divorce

19:07

isn't permitted for anyone who

19:09

signed those contracts for those reasons

19:11

Mm-hmm, and in fact this is

19:14

from a hypothetical that was in a 1997 Washington Post article

19:18

After the Louisiana law passed already

19:20

for instance Oh churches in Louisiana

19:23

or organizing covenant marriage weekend

19:25

Devoted to couples who wanted to renew their

19:28

wedding vows by signing this paperwork

19:31

This here's what critics said that

19:33

kind of encouragement from pastors friends

19:36

relatives And of course fiance's could

19:39

constitute a form of emotional blackmail

19:41

critics contend in which a reluctant

19:44

man Or woman is pressured into a

19:46

covenant marriage and later resents

19:48

it And the thing is as

19:50

the children of parents who got divorced

19:53

will often tell you they are so

19:55

much happier after their parents Ended

19:57

an unhappy relationship were

20:00

when the two of them unhappily coexisted.

20:03

Like remaining in a bad marriage is

20:05

also a bad idea for anyone who actually

20:07

wants to leave. Research has shown it can

20:10

lead to depression, PTSD, possible

20:12

suicidal ideation. Like, and

20:14

again, it's not that any of these people getting

20:17

married are trying to think about how

20:19

to get on the exit ramp

20:20

or anything like that. It's that life

20:22

happens, situations change. When

20:24

that happens, everyone is better off knowing

20:26

there is a way out even as difficult as that may

20:29

be.

20:29

Like I don't ever want to

20:31

have to use my fire extinguisher, but I'm

20:33

also not going to put a padlock on

20:35

it. That's a wonderful analogy

20:37

for what we are talking about here. It sounds

20:39

nice in theory, but it's a horrible idea in

20:41

practice. And I think it's especially

20:44

dangerous

20:44

in conservative Christian circles where

20:46

purity culture norms, like we said, they

20:49

pressure people to get married young, sometimes

20:51

before they know their partner, a lot of times

20:53

before they know themselves, and

20:55

they play it out in real time on social

20:58

media, which is hilarious. But

21:01

if you're in a broken marriage, for whatever the reason

21:03

is, you should not have to wait for

21:06

abuse or abandonment in order

21:08

to move on. And you shouldn't have to air your personal

21:10

laundry in a courtroom in

21:13

order to get out of it. Like the

21:15

option should be available to those who need

21:17

it, which is what we have right now.

21:20

But that's the thing with, just as with

21:22

abortion rights, conservative Christians

21:24

don't want other people to make choices

21:27

they may personally disapprove of. So

21:29

by creating a contract that sounds

21:31

like a more serious marriage,

21:34

who knows how many couples were trapped

21:36

in a union they wish they could escape?

21:39

Right. And Johnson said his covenant marriage

21:42

worked because his wife has, and I'm quoting

21:44

here, stayed with me this whole

21:46

time, which the

21:48

implication there is that she might have left

21:51

if the marriage contract was a little

21:53

looser. That makes it sound

21:55

like their marriage is based on paperwork,

21:57

not actual love. Truly.

21:59

And I'm just kind of gooping

22:02

into some statistics, but...

22:04

While you were doing that...

22:05

I found it. 47% of Democrats have been divorced

22:08

and 41% of Republicans. It's

22:13

not as if all... I guess that's

22:16

my point that I'm so baffled

22:18

by this becoming a GOP

22:21

thing. It's like, y'all get

22:23

divorced just as much as anybody

22:25

else.

22:27

You just are comfortable burying

22:29

your past life under the carpet for whatever reason.

22:31

And your

22:32

thoughts and your feelings and suppress

22:34

everything. Right.

22:35

I see why this didn't

22:37

gain traction because nobody wants...

22:40

No matter how happy your marriage is,

22:42

if somebody said,

22:43

I love my husband, if somebody said, Jess, you can never, ever,

22:46

ever, ever, ever leave your husband no matter what,

22:48

I would be scared because what the fuck does

22:50

that mean? Why are you trying

22:53

to make it harder for me to get away from you? Right. Which

22:56

is what I... Again, to what end? And

22:58

it sounds like only to make it harder

22:59

for women to gain independence. Because

23:01

they believe, which is wrong, they

23:04

believe that marriage is...

23:07

No matter how close you are and how in love you

23:09

are, it doesn't matter. An unhappy marriage

23:12

is better than a happy single

23:14

person who got divorced.

23:15

Have you ever been out to dinner

23:17

with a couple of, like, ripe...

23:19

Oh, God, no. Other people? Right before

23:22

they, like, end

23:23

up splitting up and you're like, Oh, that's

23:25

what that tension was. Like

23:27

it's just so...

23:29

There's nothing worse than being

23:31

stuck with a person that you feel,

23:34

like, don't want to be around. It makes...

23:37

It makes you feel like a crazy person.

23:39

Like it truly does.

23:40

And here's the thing. So Mike Johnson has a covenant marriage.

23:43

Louisiana passed a law allowing for covenant marriage.

23:45

So did two other states. The fear here now,

23:48

let's say Republicans win a governing trifecta

23:51

next year, which is not out of the question

23:53

right now with Mike Johnson

23:56

still speaker of the House. It is possible

23:58

you could see a national version. of

24:00

this state law and given all the ways

24:03

Republicans have tried to control marriage

24:05

over the years whether that's opposing

24:07

interracial marriage, refusing to protect

24:10

same-sex marriages that are already legal,

24:12

allowing child marriage which

24:14

is a thing in many states, making

24:16

it harder to get divorced would be right up

24:19

their alley and the

24:21

irony that the potential president

24:24

in that situation would be on his third

24:26

marriage totally lost on all of them

24:29

wouldn't matter. Like it's not that anyone

24:31

would be forced to sign a covenant marriage contract

24:33

if such a law passed. It's that the sort

24:35

of people pressured to sign it

24:38

may be the sort of people who like one day are

24:40

most in need of a way to break free.

24:43

I gotta tell you, I haven't been

24:45

this confused by an opinion

24:47

or a push in quite

24:50

some time. I'm really confused

24:52

by this one so yeah, see

24:54

how that goes. Yep, so

24:57

I enjoy the fact that people are discovering

24:59

this about Mike Johnson and like oh

25:01

shit yeah he believes a lot of bad stuff

25:04

but it's not just a belief he is trying to

25:06

enact these beliefs and push them into

25:08

law. I was chatting with my coworker you

25:10

know walked up while they're

25:11

talking and I was like oh what are you

25:13

guys talking about? They're like have

25:15

you heard about this Mike Johnson guy and

25:17

I was like girl I have. Let's

25:19

commiserate. Yes. Jessica

25:22

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25:57

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26:00

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26:02

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I was told by everyone else this is good

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We went on Uploaded it at

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27:00

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27:02

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27:09

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27:11

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27:13

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28:50

Hey, what's the largest

28:53

Christian university in the country?

28:56

You'll get this wrong, fair warning. Largest

28:59

Christian university in the country. Is Loyola?

29:02

Not even close.

29:03

Really? No, I don't

29:05

know.

29:05

Grand Canyon University,

29:08

based in Phoenix, mostly online. You

29:10

made that up. I did not.

29:12

This is a premise

29:14

for a sitcom. It's a community

29:16

sequel and it takes place at Grand Canyon University

29:19

and they're all rangers and going to school. I'm

29:21

gonna write the script.

29:21

You should. The school enrolls

29:23

over 100,000 students. I

29:27

think 80% of it is online. But

29:30

that's still a lot of people. And the reason

29:32

they're in the news this week is they

29:34

have just been fined for

29:37

lying to students for years

29:39

about the actual cost of their grad

29:42

school programs.

29:44

Oh, it's wild. Wow,

29:46

okay, I was assuming that it

29:48

was gonna be religious related.

29:51

I was hoping. They're just bad practice.

29:53

They're just lying to people. They're just monsters. And

29:55

this is important. They're not, the Department

29:58

of Education, which levied. Fine,

30:00

which I'll tell you about in a second. They're not going

30:02

after Grand Canyon University because

30:05

it's a religious school Even though the

30:07

school absolutely believes this is Christian

30:09

persecution, of course So here's what happened

30:12

the Department of Education Just

30:14

issued a thirty seven point seven

30:16

million dollar fine Against

30:19

the for-profit GCU. Oh,

30:21

it's for profit Yes,

30:23

he's twelve profits though. Yeah So

30:26

what they said you make sense the school

30:29

Loballed their tuition fees in

30:32

all advertising on the website Whatever

30:34

to real kids in and once

30:36

they were in the program now you're kind of

30:38

stuck in the program Then they would charge

30:40

them a lot more

30:41

I was gonna ask if this is legal but we are learning

30:43

that it is not because they

30:45

got fine Correct that the lying

30:47

is the problem. So here's what the Department

30:49

of Education said Geez, this

30:51

we're talking specifically about their doctoral

30:54

programs GCU

30:56

lied to more than 7500 former

30:59

and current students about the cost of its doctoral

31:01

programs over several years Basically,

31:04

they said on their website. Here's the sticker

31:06

price if you want to take get a doctorate

31:08

get your PhD Let's say in psychology

31:12

Just to give you an example if you go

31:14

on their website They

31:16

will say oh you want to get your doctor

31:18

of philosophy PhD in general

31:21

psychology The school's website

31:23

says well, it's about 60 credit

31:25

hours that you need to take You

31:28

can only transfer like nine credits from

31:30

another institution which means once

31:32

you're in their program, you really can't get out of it

31:34

because these Credits don't

31:36

necessarily transfer elsewhere.

31:38

Is that all post

31:40

grad? We're

31:42

talking specifically about their PhD programs,

31:45

but in any number of the PhD programs Kind

31:47

of how they work, but they said you got to take 60 credit

31:50

hours and the cost is $725 per

31:53

credit and if you do the math that's forty

31:55

three thousand five hundred well

31:58

for all their PhD programs their

32:00

sticker price, like I just said, it's

32:02

between like $40,000 to $50,000, depending on

32:05

which thing you want to get your PhD in, which

32:08

is fine. Like other schools have

32:11

similar programs, have similar costs.

32:13

That part is not weird. There's

32:16

nothing. The cost is what it is. What

32:18

the Department of Education found is

32:20

that 98% of students

32:23

enrolled in those

32:24

programs paid a higher price

32:27

than what I just mentioned. The $40,000 to $50,000 ballpark, that's

32:30

what it's going to cost you. 98% of students

32:33

in those programs had to pay more, which

32:35

means you are no longer providing an accurate

32:37

estimate of the cost. So

32:40

according to the Department of Ed, GCU

32:42

lied about the cost of its doctoral programs

32:45

to attract students to enroll. Today,

32:48

we are holding GCU accountable for its actions,

32:51

protecting students and taxpayers and

32:53

upholding the integrity of the federal student aid

32:55

programs. Why is the Department of Education

32:57

getting involved in a Christian schools?

33:00

Anything reason is they were footing

33:02

loans. They were, they were footing loans.

33:04

In fact, GCU is, I'm

33:06

looking for the specific thing here. They

33:09

are, I think they

33:11

are the biggest recipient of

33:13

federal student loans because it's such a huge

33:16

place. And the Department of Education

33:18

wrote in their giant writeup here

33:21

that internal emails indicate that

33:23

GCU leadership has been aware

33:26

since at least January of 2017 that

33:28

its disclosures about costs regarding

33:31

costs were incomplete or misleading.

33:35

So basically what happens is you're

33:37

in the program, you're taking, you're getting

33:39

your PhD, you've got to write a dissertation

33:42

at some point, but after you finish your 60 credit

33:45

hours, they may say, Oh,

33:47

you have to take continuing education

33:49

or you need a few more classes to finish up

33:51

your degree and those will

33:53

also cost you. And at that point,

33:56

when you've done this for several years, you're

33:58

like, well, I got to finish my

33:59

degree at this point I've invested too much

34:02

into it

34:03

and that's where these the additional cost

34:05

by the way per student come out to between

34:07

like ten to twelve thousand dollars more

34:10

than they expected it would

34:12

be

34:12

so I want to just make sure I'm understanding

34:15

so say I want to go get my

34:17

doctorate at Grand Canyon

34:18

University or whatever my doctorate

34:20

in holes I go there

34:23

I say one doctorate please

34:28

I do my they say okay they'll be 60 hours

34:31

and I say great and I do my 60 hours

34:33

and I said that's about $45,000 roughly and that's what I'm going to

34:37

website said that's what their

34:40

advertising material said when

34:41

I actually take

34:43

classes and take out loans I can see how

34:46

much I'm gonna be sending right or

34:48

so the idea is like they advertise

34:50

it'd be 45,000 it's actually gonna be like 55,000

34:53

because of this track I'm gonna take

34:54

no you only see that later on because

34:57

what you have to take later on is something

34:59

called a continuation course and you

35:01

don't find that out until down the road

35:03

okay

35:03

so it's so it will

35:06

be that 45,000 that I expected to pay

35:08

and then when it comes graduation day and I say one doctorate

35:10

please like just one thing

35:12

right you got to take some more courses to

35:14

finish that's very

35:17

shady very shady and the school

35:19

says do we told everybody

35:22

about the continuation courses because

35:24

everyone knows that other schools you may have to take

35:27

those which is true but

35:29

what they say is we mentioned the additional

35:32

possible fees to students via

35:34

quote fine print disclosures

35:37

and other documents but the government

35:39

says no it's not an okay excuse

35:41

here because if you go to

35:43

the website there's no asterisk

35:46

share of a number there's no it's not

35:48

clear to students that they would be paying

35:51

a lot more than what you are advertising

35:53

on the site so this is about you're just you're

35:55

lying to people about the cost of an education

35:58

all we are asking you to do tell the truth.

36:01

Like 50, our median 50% of

36:03

students pay between X and Y

36:06

to get a degree. That's all they have to do,

36:08

but they don't want to do that. And so

36:11

what the Department of Ed said, oh here's

36:13

what I was looking for earlier, the reason the government

36:15

is able to levy this fine at all is

36:17

because GCU, despite being a private

36:20

Christian school, gets over 1.1 billion

36:24

dollars a year, not a

36:26

year, but they received over 1.1 billion

36:29

dollars in Title IV funding, which

36:31

is federal financial aid. Students

36:34

take out loans from the government to take classes

36:36

there. So the Department of Ed has

36:38

every right then to make sure those funds are

36:41

being used as intended. And

36:43

the report says as we speak, more

36:45

than 18 million dollars in federal

36:47

loans have been given to 1,344 students enrolled

36:49

in GCU

36:53

doctoral programs. 7,547 students

36:55

have gone through those programs since 2018. They

37:01

have spent over 122 million

37:03

dollars in tuition. A lot of that

37:05

comes from federal loans. So that's why

37:07

the government's like, we want to make sure they're getting

37:09

what they, they're taking out loans because

37:12

they knew what they were getting into. That's

37:14

what the government wants. And actually they're going

37:17

easy on GCU because according to

37:19

the letter, they could have instituted

37:21

a fine of 509 million dollars, which is

37:23

about 67,500 dollars for each violation. Wow.

37:29

The actual fine of 38 million

37:32

dollars, that brings it down to about 5,000 a

37:35

violation. And they reflected on the

37:37

fact that, you know, this wasn't something

37:39

you were doing across the whole college. You

37:41

did it specifically for these doctoral programs.

37:44

Undergrad, we're not seeing that problem. Other

37:47

programs that don't require a dissertation, we're

37:49

not seeing the problem.

37:59

violation? No, it doesn't offset the cost.

38:02

But $38 million is still a lot of money

38:05

and the school does not want to pay it.

38:07

Can you help me understand why

38:09

it's a punishment to like I

38:11

stole $100 from you

38:13

and my

38:14

fine is I have to pay $60. Can you

38:16

help me understand why that is

38:20

anything?

38:21

Probably because by giving

38:23

you that $60 fine and

38:25

I'm also publicizing it and

38:27

the shame and the public scandal

38:30

of it all might deter some students from

38:32

enrolling in that school.

38:33

Say a year of our Lord 2023 shame is no

38:35

longer a factor

38:36

in how anybody does anything. So

38:38

in response to the fine that the Department

38:40

of Ed issued this week, the school

38:42

now has I think 20 days to respond.

38:46

And by the way, to be clear it's not like

38:48

the Department of Ed just magically sprung

38:51

this on them. They've been pointing this

38:53

stuff out for a long time. Sure. The

38:55

school did not fix the problem and

38:58

to anyone's satisfaction that's why they love you to

39:00

find out. But the school now says it did nothing

39:02

wrong. Oh. It says the allegations

39:05

are a series of quote lies and

39:07

deceptive statements. And

39:09

here's what they said. G.C. discourse

39:12

in this country. Uh-huh. Horrible. Here's

39:14

what they actually said. G.C. you categorically

39:17

denies every accusation in

39:19

the Department of Education statement. This

39:21

is further evidence of the coordinated

39:24

and unjust actions the federal

39:26

government is taking against the largest

39:29

Christian University in the country.

39:32

It's like buddy they don't care

39:34

about your religion. So tired. Nowhere

39:36

in the 30 some pages that the

39:39

department sent the school. Do they

39:41

bring up anything about Christianity? Also.

39:44

Because it's not about that. It's about the lie.

39:46

And I yeah this is this

39:48

is a wild accusation. Now

39:50

at this point there's no logic.

39:52

They can appeal the fine through a

39:54

formal hearing or in writing and say

39:56

you missed something. Here's the deal. Whatever. We'll

39:59

see how that plays. out. But if the punishment

40:01

stands and the school refuses to pay

40:03

it, then the federal government could say,

40:06

we're not giving loans to people going to a shady

40:08

school. And they could just cut off

40:11

that pipeline for students, which would be, it would

40:13

destroy the school. The school relies on that

40:15

money. So this is going to have to be resolved

40:18

one way or the other.

40:19

I mean, this, this feels very much

40:21

akin to the schools that have,

40:24

you know, God bless

40:25

America on their walls or

40:27

whatever. And then there's a lawsuit and they're

40:30

like, Oh my God, they're making us pay a million

40:32

dollars in law fines. It's like, well, nobody's making

40:34

you do that. You let

40:37

it get to this point by not

40:39

jumping on it when all you had to do was take a sign

40:41

down or all you had to do was stop being predatory.

40:44

But you ignore

40:45

the problem. If the school just said,

40:47

this is what our average student

40:49

pays to get their PhD. And that

40:51

was the actual number, however

40:54

they wanted to define it. There are ways to be shady with

40:56

statistics and still tell the truth. But

40:58

if 98% of your doctoral students are

41:01

paying a higher than listed price for their degree,

41:03

then the estimated price is clearly

41:06

understating it and

41:07

it's a lie. And you have to assume

41:09

like these are smart people.

41:12

So it's not like, like a payday

41:14

lending thing where they're pre preying on people

41:16

with like less information and less understanding

41:19

of how that works. It's your PhD

41:21

students that you're trying to pull one over. So like, you're

41:24

trying to scam the people you're educating,

41:26

dude, like the

41:27

best representatives of your

41:29

school because they're trying to earn a doctorate

41:32

from your school. These are the people you want

41:34

out in the world. Just be open

41:36

about the fact, look, it'll cost you 60,000, not And

41:40

it costs what it costs. Like that's another conversation

41:43

to be had. I just like, this is

41:45

why like the unfettered capitalism is so

41:47

destructive because it is taking down

41:49

institutions that

41:52

should not be focused on gain on earning

41:54

money. These, I mean, obviously this is a for profit,

41:57

educational institutions, healthcare institutions

41:59

should not.

41:59

be in the business of trying to make money.

42:02

They should be in the business of doing the thing

42:04

they're supposed to do. Yeah, that's do

42:06

the post office thing. I don't care if you make money.

42:08

Your job is to deliver the mail and

42:10

if it comes at a loss so be it. It's not a

42:12

business stop treating it like one.

42:14

It's not a business and we're not trying to

42:16

like get away with

42:18

as little as we can. Like we should be

42:20

spending this much. This is like

42:22

the

42:22

IRS too. Like I like that the IRS

42:25

is getting funded or getting better funded because

42:27

that means they can go after people who are cheating

42:30

the system and I want a Department

42:32

of Education like this one that goes

42:34

after predatory schools because

42:36

I don't trust that that would happen certainly

42:39

not to a Christian school in a Republican

42:41

run administration. So kudos to the

42:44

Department of Education for going after this and

42:46

not letting the Christian side of GCU like

42:49

prevent them from doing it. I'm

42:50

shocked that the largest

42:52

Christian university in the country is A,

42:54

called

42:55

Grand Canyon University.

42:57

B, I've never heard of it and C, a for-profit company.

42:59

And by the way Liberty University which also

43:01

has a robust online thing they're also

43:03

for reasons we talked about earlier they're also in trouble

43:05

with the government because they're not following Title

43:08

IX requirements and protecting students on

43:10

campus. So they're under investigation

43:13

as well. A couple years ago there was a little beef

43:15

between those two schools because Liberty under

43:18

Jerry Falwell Jr. said we're the largest

43:20

Christian university in the country and they use

43:22

this in all their marketing stuff and

43:24

I believe Jack Jenkins the reporter at Religion

43:26

News Service is like actually you're not

43:29

the largest because if it's by

43:31

students Grand Canyon actually

43:33

has more than you and they were

43:36

that Liberty did not enjoy being

43:38

known as the second largest.

43:39

Well yeah success numbers

43:42

are what they are like truly

43:44

the people who teach the world is six thousand

43:46

years old are not really good with numbers.

43:48

Like they just want the world to

43:50

bend around their worldview they don't want to do

43:52

anything to like become better or earn

43:54

more money or be smart they

43:57

just want everybody to like hey just give

43:59

me more money hey just

43:59

Tell me I'm the biggest, tell me I'm the biggest boy

44:02

in the world. I'm the biggest Christian school in the whole

44:04

wide world. Tell me again, dad. Like it's

44:07

so bad. I'm

44:07

pretty sure pissing off PhD

44:09

students, the people who are likely to earn more

44:11

money than regular, uh, graduates

44:14

of the school, pissing them off by lying to

44:16

them about tuition is probably not the best marketing strategy

44:19

either. Sorry, being a Christian university and

44:21

being like,

44:22

you should hold yourself to a higher standard.

44:24

If y'all think Christianity is the fucking

44:26

end-all be-all, then we should be

44:28

holding these places to a much higher standard instead of pitching

44:30

in money. Like a covenant marriage contract.

44:33

Oh boy. Is what they need at these colleges.

44:36

I hate this place.

44:38

Let's talk about the Southern Baptist. No,

44:40

I hate that place too.

44:41

Yes, you do. You're gonna hate them even more after

44:43

this.

44:44

So they've been in the news for the past several years

44:46

because just like the Catholic Church, they

44:48

have a massive problem with childhood sexual

44:51

abuse. And what they just did

44:53

this past week, it's actually an old story,

44:56

but everyone just found out about it like

44:58

this week. Oh, how old?

45:01

Like several, several months old. And

45:04

basically they found a new way to fight

45:06

against survivors of sexual abuse. And

45:09

everyone only picked up on this recently and even

45:11

the leadership is like, oh no, what

45:13

have we- we didn't realize we were hurting

45:15

victims again. So

45:18

let's talk about what happened here. I'm

45:20

gonna tell you a story. This is a disturbing story,

45:22

but it is true and it's important to make sense

45:24

of what happened here. There's a woman named

45:27

Samantha Killary. She

45:29

was adopted at the age of two by

45:32

a police officer in Louisville, Kentucky. His

45:34

name was Sean Jackman. So Sean, the

45:36

cop, he adopts this girl at the age

45:39

of two and she lived with him until

45:41

she was 18. And according to

45:43

her, she was sexually assaulted by the

45:46

cop who adopted her. It

45:48

was only years later, like when

45:51

she secretly recorded him, she

45:54

caught him admitting to what he did. And

45:56

only then was this guy charged with

45:59

crimes. And in 2018,

46:01

this cop was sentenced to 15 years

46:04

behind bars, which is where he is today.

46:06

Okay.

46:08

But what she said, Samantha,

46:10

she didn't just want him to be punished.

46:12

She said there were others who knew what

46:14

was going on, including

46:16

one of his ex-girlfriends. She

46:19

knew what he was doing to her and said

46:21

nothing. She was also in the police department. So

46:24

was

46:24

this guy's father.

46:25

So she wanted to go after them

46:28

as well for keeping silent about this. And

46:30

she sued the police department

46:32

that employed all of them. So

46:34

here's the

46:35

thing, a judge eventually tossed out

46:37

those other cases, not

46:39

the one against her adoptive father,

46:42

because she caught him. She

46:44

had the recording and he's in jail. But all

46:46

the other lawsuits were tossed out. And the reason the

46:48

judge tossed them out is he said the statute

46:51

of limitations to bring these cases has

46:54

long expired. Thank God we

46:56

honor that statute of limitations. Basically

46:57

the assaults against Samantha,

47:00

they ended in 2009 and the law in Kentucky said

47:05

you only have five years to bring forth

47:08

sexual abuse claims. And

47:10

she had passed that. So that's why the

47:12

judge tossed them out. Now, over

47:14

the past several years, as we have talked about

47:17

on the show in the past, several states

47:19

have passed laws, especially in response to the

47:21

Catholic church scandals. They've passed

47:24

laws giving victims, survivors

47:26

of sexual abuse more time

47:28

to file such lawsuits. They've

47:31

expanded the statute of limitations. Sometimes

47:33

they've created a window where like, hey,

47:36

for the next two, three years, it doesn't

47:39

matter when it happened, you can file your lawsuits

47:41

right now to try to make

47:43

up for all that lost time. So

47:46

in Kentucky, they have done the same thing. Because

47:49

in Kentucky survivors, I should say in Kentucky

47:51

now have 10 years to

47:53

file such claims, not just five. And

47:56

as a lot, it's not a lot, but better, better

47:59

in 2020.

47:59

They passed a law saying organizations

48:02

that harbor abusers are

48:04

also subject to those lawsuits So

48:06

look at that. So here's the question

48:09

can her lawsuit Against the police

48:11

department and those other people does

48:14

it get a second life? Can she try again

48:16

more broadly speaking if the alleged abuse

48:18

occurred before these laws were passed

48:21

Can victims who had previously been shut out

48:24

file a lawsuit now to go

48:26

after? You know their abusers and the

48:28

people who harbored

48:28

them normally in the legal system if

48:31

a judge dismisses a lawsuit Is that it

48:33

for that lawsuit in general?

48:34

This is the question It seems like it would

48:37

be that you can't you can't just

48:39

keep filing the same lawsuit again Sure,

48:42

but this law has changed and now maybe

48:44

she can go after them again Huh? So

48:46

this case is now in front of

48:48

the Kentucky Supreme Court Like

48:51

can you? Refile your case because

48:53

you were shut out in the past and now

48:55

the law allows you to do it But

48:58

the judge tossed it out before can you refile

49:00

that case?

49:01

Can these people bring forth that lawsuit?

49:03

What's

49:03

the argument against being able to do that? The

49:05

argument against

49:06

it is it's already been on one

49:09

side You have victims rights groups saying you

49:11

need to give survivors more time to sue It's

49:13

important for the sake of justice Many victims

49:15

don't realize they were victims of abuse

49:17

until long after and even those who are

49:19

aware of what happened may be hesitant To go after

49:22

their assailants in court So allowing

49:24

older cases of abuse to be tried is

49:26

vital to fix the mistakes of the past Now

49:29

the argument against that is

49:32

a general argument against Not

49:35

expanding statute of limitations if something

49:37

happened decades and decades ago And you

49:39

are now saying this person harbored the

49:41

abuser this Person

49:44

abused me but it happened decades and decades ago it's

49:46

a lot harder for your alleged assailant

49:50

to provide a defense of Their

49:53

own actions like I don't know what I did 30 years

49:55

ago Or if there was a witness

49:57

who could have attested to the fact that this never happened

50:00

Maybe that person has died. It's a lot harder

50:02

to form a defense. Now the argument

50:05

against that is the

50:08

survivor would still have to overcome some burden

50:10

of proof. It's not like it's

50:12

just a he said, she said thing. So

50:15

this is the argument for who cares when it happened,

50:17

allowed them to try to get justice.

50:20

And look, if the bar, if they haven't reached

50:22

that bar, okay, it's not going

50:24

to happen, but you've got to give them a chance. So

50:27

again, the Kentucky Supreme Court this

50:29

week heard that case and

50:32

we'll see what they decide to do. It's an entirely

50:34

Republican bench. Oh boy. Yeah.

50:36

So we're not, I'm, it's one thing to say, what

50:39

are they going to do with this particular case involving

50:42

Samantha? But more broadly speaking, like

50:44

how are they going to handle these issues

50:46

of sexual abuse and things like that? So

50:49

this is where it gets interesting because

50:53

while this case is going through, you might

50:55

have, as with the Supreme Court, the

50:58

U.S. Supreme Court, you might have other groups that say, you

51:00

know what, we have nothing to do with this case, but

51:03

the outcome could affect us. So we

51:05

have a take on it and we're going to present

51:08

our legal arguments for why the Supreme Court should

51:10

rule one way or the other. And what's that called?

51:12

It's called an amicus brief. And they're saying, we

51:14

want to file an amicus brief saying, we have nothing

51:16

to do with this, but you should listen to our arguments.

51:20

And what we form the decision, you're about to make

51:22

the decision because maybe you should consider

51:24

this. And what's amazing,

51:26

you would think Southern Baptist at this point who have

51:28

gone through a public reckoning regarding

51:31

their sexual abuse problems, one will avoid

51:33

anything like this.

51:35

But what a reporter discovered this week

51:37

when this case was being heard in front

51:39

of the Kentucky Supreme Court

51:41

is that in April,

51:43

the Southern Baptist Convention, and

51:46

not just Southern Baptist Convention, the Southern Baptist

51:48

Convention, the Executive Committee

51:50

of the Southern Baptist Convention, the Southern

51:53

Baptist Theological Seminary, and

51:55

Life Way Christian Resources, which

51:57

is like their marketing, publishing, everything.

52:00

outlet of the SBC, they

52:02

filed a joint amicus brief saying

52:05

you should totally side against the victims

52:07

here and do not allow any

52:09

victims to bring forth a case when the

52:12

statute of limitations if they were locked

52:15

out before you got to keep them locked down.

52:16

It's a good look you guys.

52:17

That is what the SBC lawyers

52:20

filed and people only found

52:22

out they filed this this week.

52:24

And people are surprised?

52:27

Well they are surprised in part because

52:29

over the past year at least on paper

52:31

and through their elected leadership

52:34

the Southern Baptist said look we absolutely

52:37

screwed up in the past. We are trying

52:39

to make things right. We are taking

52:41

actions to make sure this sort of stuff is prevented

52:44

that it's not a revolving door where

52:46

someone commits an act of abuse

52:49

gets fired from a church and then just moves over

52:51

to the church estate away. They

52:53

have taken some steps or at least that's what they said

52:55

they were going to do. Here's what the Courier

52:57

Journal reported this week. In

53:00

their brief, the SBC's brief,

53:02

they say of course we do not dispute

53:04

the laudable policy reasons

53:07

for providing relief for victims of childhood

53:09

sexual abuse. But not

53:12

even the most sacrosanct policy

53:15

can trump the due process concerns

53:18

presented in this and similar cases involving

53:21

the attempted retroactive application

53:23

of expired claims. Yeah

53:27

basically saying look if it happened a while

53:29

ago the alleged abusers

53:32

will not really get due process under

53:35

the law and that's unfair for that

53:37

and so we're trying to protect

53:39

the law here and the rights

53:41

of anyone accused of a crime because

53:43

the law cares about that. So

53:46

the brief basically says, by the way

53:48

the SBC is a fellowship of 47,000 churches. They

53:50

are on the hook for claims

53:54

dating back to 2003 that they knew

53:57

about abuse and violated their duties

53:59

in response. to it so they're saying

54:01

like look if you allow retroactive

54:04

cases to come forth right we're

54:06

fucked so

54:09

they really don't want the law to set it

54:11

and oh they did not say the word fucked in the

54:13

breeze no no

54:13

how are they well I guess they're

54:16

just

54:18

framing as like their rights of

54:20

the accused is more important than anything

54:22

else yes

54:23

that is exactly how they're putting

54:24

how can you like

54:27

say with one breath we need to be better

54:29

about taking care of victims and then

54:32

immediately be like right

54:34

so the SBC has a sexual

54:36

abuse task force like a select

54:39

appointed group of people whose job it is to

54:41

tell the SBC how to do better they

54:44

just found out about this brief this

54:46

week and so they issued a

54:48

statement basically saying what

54:51

the fuck is going on here here's

54:53

what they said in a really interesting

54:56

statement they put out this brief and

54:58

the policy arguments made in it were

55:00

made without our knowledge and without

55:03

our approval moreover they do not

55:05

represent our values and positions

55:08

represent some of your rally it

55:10

has long been recognized they said that

55:12

access to the justice system is

55:14

a fundamental part of identifying

55:17

and stopping abusers as well

55:19

as creating lasting effective reform

55:21

to protect the next generation

55:23

by taking this stand against

55:25

access to the justice system the

55:27

leaders wait for this the leaders

55:29

who approved this position have

55:32

joined with the Catholic Church powerful

55:35

insurance companies Michigan State University

55:40

and many others who have sought to close the

55:42

halls of our courts to survivors of abuse

55:44

and it was a choice to

55:47

stand against every survivor in Kentucky

55:51

oh my so that's the SBC's own

55:53

sexual abuse task force saying what the

55:56

hell this goes against everything we are trying

55:58

to fix

55:58

I just have to sort

55:59

of

56:00

recalibrate my entire world view after

56:03

hearing that. I know! That's an impressively

56:05

good condemnation. Very impressive. And

56:07

you know it's bad when they're like, SBC, you're acting

56:09

like the Catholics. What are you doing?

56:11

We're supposed to do better now.

56:13

The fact that they not only name checked the Catholics,

56:15

but University of Michigan.

56:17

That's the gymnast's gymnastics

56:20

coach. Yeah, that's exciting.

56:21

Shit, man, they are not here

56:23

to play.

56:24

Wow. They noted that

56:26

opening up older cases may create,

56:28

quote, valid factual

56:30

questions about what happened, but

56:32

opposing this case, taking this position,

56:35

quote, is a deliberate effort

56:37

to ensure those questions are never asked.

56:41

There was also another statement put out by three

56:43

women who have been, who are Baptists

56:45

or were Baptists anyway, and they've been very courageous

56:48

and outspoken about the need to reform the

56:50

SBC. Megan Lively,

56:52

Jules Woodson, and Tiffany Thigpen, they

56:55

said they were sickened and saddened to

56:57

be burned yet again by

57:00

the actions of the SBC against survivors.

57:02

Here's what they said. The SBC

57:04

proactively chose to side against

57:07

a survivor and with an abuser

57:09

and the institution that enabled his abuse.

57:12

These are the same arguments made repeatedly

57:14

by organizations rife with the coverup

57:17

of sexual abuse, including the Catholic

57:19

Church. Dang. Everyone's

57:21

replying to Catholic Church, man. Catholic Church is getting dragged. Yeah.

57:24

So they were asking, they want, this is what

57:26

they said in their letter. We want SBC

57:29

member bodies like the churches to

57:31

denounce the activities, enormous

57:34

costs and pain of

57:36

the double edged sword being shown against

57:38

survivors and reform in the SBC. They

57:41

also wanted to know, hey, SBC, how much money

57:44

did you spend on this brief? Because

57:46

there are eight lawyers who signed their name to

57:48

it and all those people needed to be paid for their

57:50

time. And how much did you spend

57:53

on this brief and fighting this case versus how

57:55

much money you've claimed to invest in supporting

57:57

reform efforts? Because that would be interesting.

58:00

Dang. They fucked

58:03

around and they found

58:04

out. Uh-huh. And again, this was

58:06

filed, this amicus brief, filed back in April,

58:09

only finding out about it now the week the Supreme

58:11

Court is hearing this case.

58:13

And like, there's no way to move forward. I completely

58:15

forgot

58:16

where it was started. There's no way to move forward

58:18

with abuse reform when the SBC is

58:20

clearly dead set on making sure victims of

58:22

abuse are not able to seek justice.

58:25

So here's the ultimate question. Who

58:27

the hell okayed any of this? Because

58:29

the SBC seemed to be caught off guard

58:32

too. Like, uh, the Southern Baptist

58:34

Conventions elected leaders are like, uh,

58:36

I don't remember signing an okay

58:38

on this. And mind you remember,

58:40

it wasn't like one dude who signed off on the six. It

58:43

was the Southern Baptist Convention, their executive

58:45

committee, the theological

58:48

seminary and all that. Like who

58:50

said this was a good idea? What was the

58:52

process for them saying, should we get involved

58:55

in this case that has nothing to do with us? And

58:57

there, someone

58:57

had to say yes. Yeah.

59:00

I really think this is another kind

59:02

of like we talked about before another example

59:04

of like, I'm just going to do whatever the fuck I

59:07

want. And there will be no consequences for

59:09

me. Like it just feels like everything we talk

59:11

about of like, well if I keep pretending

59:13

it's not happening, maybe they'll just leave me alone

59:16

like a toddler or an ostrich.

59:17

So on Friday, when all this hit the fan

59:19

last week, the executive committee's

59:22

officers for the Southern Baptist convention, they

59:24

confirmed no trustees

59:27

approved the amicus brief. None

59:29

of them had anything to do with it. Instead, they said,

59:32

we joined the brief on the advice of our

59:34

attorneys. The statement does

59:36

not address who approved joining the brief.

59:39

But at the time, this is funny, this is from religion, new

59:41

service. At the time, the brief was filed

59:44

like in April, the executive committee

59:46

was led by former interim president

59:48

Willie McLaurin, who resigned

59:51

in August after admitting he had faked

59:53

his resume. Uh

59:56

huh. I do have an update

59:58

to this though.

59:59

What do you mean?

1:01:44

I

1:02:00

thought he partly came off looking pretty

1:02:02

good, but at the same time He

1:02:06

like whiffed on the simplest questions

1:02:08

like well if a 14 year old victim

1:02:10

of sexual abuse Needs an abortion

1:02:13

surely she should be exempted right

1:02:15

like she should be allowed to get it

1:02:17

like no

1:02:18

And gay people should be allowed to have rights

1:02:21

and like merit. No So

1:02:23

like was it a great interview and not exactly

1:02:25

but

1:02:26

Bart Barber

1:02:27

Put out a blog post this he's not the president

1:02:30

anymore. He served two terms. He

1:02:32

is it. They are one-year terms Wait,

1:02:34

he's not the one who didn't

1:02:36

take his resume, right? No But

1:02:39

he served one term they reelected him for another

1:02:41

year and now it's another guy Bart Barber

1:02:44

said He was looking through

1:02:46

his emails and he realized

1:02:48

he was the guy who okayed Going

1:02:52

forward with this case. He wrote quote. This

1:02:54

is my doing I approved it I

1:02:57

take full responsibility for the SBC's

1:02:59

having joined this brief Now

1:03:03

he also says which this doesn't

1:03:05

make anyone feel better about it. He

1:03:07

basically says I did it in haste

1:03:09

I didn't realize like what we

1:03:11

were actually doing the lawyer said it was a

1:03:13

good idea. I didn't thoroughly investigate it

1:03:16

Yeah, cuz then the stakes aren't very

1:03:18

high or anything There's no need for you to be thoughtful

1:03:20

about the actions that you

1:03:21

take here's what Bart Barber wrote You take

1:03:24

this as you will in the middle of the day I

1:03:26

now know that I received an email from the

1:03:28

SBC's legal team making me

1:03:30

aware of this brief and Recommending that

1:03:32

we join it it came at 1 30 p.m Which

1:03:35

was during the executive committee trusty

1:03:37

orientation and a little more than two

1:03:39

hours before I needed to lead that other meeting

1:03:42

The filing deadline was that day the email

1:03:44

said so I had a little more than three hours

1:03:46

to reply one way or the other

1:03:49

So he's like I had a lot of shit going

1:03:51

on and I'm not a lawyer It

1:03:53

sounds like your lawyers are fucking terrible I

1:03:55

say put something in front of you that you need

1:03:57

to read and sign and

1:03:59

don't give you adequate time to do that. What

1:04:03

the fuck

1:04:03

is wrong with people?

1:04:06

I do not recall my exact thoughts in

1:04:08

reading the brief. I did not

1:04:10

know the circumstances of the underlying

1:04:12

legal case involving Samantha. I

1:04:14

do, however, know what

1:04:16

has been my consistent practice

1:04:17

in addressing these legal matters, so

1:04:19

I am very confident that I was reading

1:04:21

that brief, asking myself the question, is

1:04:24

this an honest, true, legal question for

1:04:26

which the Southern Baptist Convention can take this

1:04:28

position in good faith? What was I

1:04:31

thinking? I was thinking about that question. I

1:04:33

did what I did because of the answer to that question.

1:04:36

He thought the SBC needed to inject itself

1:04:39

into this matter, and then

1:04:41

he's like, I don't know what I think about statutes of limitations.

1:04:44

Okay, so he

1:04:46

did it. How come he didn't come forward before?

1:04:49

I don't think he thought this was a big deal until

1:04:52

this couple, like a week ago, when

1:04:54

people found out they filed this brief, and everyone's

1:04:56

like, wait, did the Southern Baptist Convention

1:04:59

just take the side of abusers in

1:05:01

a case involving justice for victims

1:05:03

of sexual abuse? And Barbara is

1:05:05

saying, I didn't realize that's what this case was

1:05:08

about. I thought it was about

1:05:10

some larger issue, yada, yada,

1:05:13

yada. He's trying to make an excuse.

1:05:16

It's also

1:05:18

embarrassing because- And

1:05:19

he's the good face of the organization.

1:05:22

Like he was supposed to be the good face of the organization.

1:05:25

I don't know, man. Like at what

1:05:28

point do you just take the L

1:05:30

and walk away? Like, well,

1:05:32

it's too late now because the case

1:05:34

was hard.

1:05:35

When we talk about the confidence of mediocre white

1:05:38

men, this is the kind of thing

1:05:40

I think we should pay more attention to because

1:05:42

this dude who is some

1:05:45

idiot is

1:05:48

so bad at his job, or

1:05:51

this company is so poorly

1:05:54

run and two things can be true, that

1:05:57

something really important ended up

1:05:59

on his

1:05:59

desk that he either

1:06:03

signed without reading or understanding

1:06:05

fully or did read

1:06:08

and fully understand but did not communicate

1:06:11

that with anybody else in the in

1:06:13

the organization I believe

1:06:15

him that he says like I just didn't know what

1:06:17

I was really signing and my lawyer said yeah we should

1:06:19

do this and he's like yeah

1:06:20

okay then you're bad at your job

1:06:22

and you should be fired like I when

1:06:25

we like when fucking Elon Musk does another

1:06:27

jump and people like oh it's just us or the other okay well

1:06:29

this or the other means he's bad at his fucking job

1:06:32

and he should not have it anymore you

1:06:34

don't just get to keep a job cuz you want

1:06:37

it real bad and

1:06:38

again it's not that he lost his job

1:06:40

it's that his terms ran out so he's not the

1:06:42

leader anymore

1:06:42

no no I understand I'm saying what

1:06:45

so many times when these things happen and something

1:06:47

horrible happens and it's just some like some middle

1:06:49

management dude like oh I just didn't realize

1:06:52

this is a big

1:06:52

yeah no one wants to take responsibility it's you

1:06:55

think it was me but also don't

1:06:57

be mad at me because I wasn't thinking about bad

1:06:59

are

1:06:59

seen for them they just like are

1:07:01

yeah that's

1:07:04

the that's the reformed Southern

1:07:06

Baptist side of things all

1:07:09

right I have a little good news to

1:07:12

report about an older story so 18

1:07:15

months ago there was a public school district in

1:07:17

West Virginia they forced

1:07:20

students to attend an in-school religious

1:07:22

revival yeah that

1:07:24

case offended here's what happened you said West

1:07:26

Virginia West Virginia February of 2022 at

1:07:30

Huntington High School there

1:07:32

was an assembly and it featured Nick

1:07:34

Walker ministries who is Nick

1:07:37

Walker he's a Christian who is long

1:07:39

made clear that his desires to proselytize

1:07:41

in public schools he's bragged

1:07:43

on Facebook about giving talks at high

1:07:46

schools with an intent to convert

1:07:48

kids and he thinks if students invite

1:07:50

him to their school he has a license to preach

1:07:53

which is not always how that works and

1:07:55

after he went to Huntington High School he even

1:07:57

bragged I got the screenshot it says

1:08:10

referred

1:10:00

to Nick Walker as a guest speaker with

1:10:02

no mention of his religious affiliations. Another

1:10:05

teacher said certain students, like

1:10:07

Jewish ones, needed it. Needed

1:10:11

to go to this assembly.

1:10:13

They were also told about leaving the

1:10:15

assembly. I feel like

1:10:16

you inserting the Jewish

1:10:18

ones. I feel like they think like y'all need

1:10:20

Jesus in a way of like, you guys are acting like dicks

1:10:22

and you need Jesus. I doubt she literally

1:10:25

meant.

1:10:26

I'll see if I can find the actual line there. But

1:10:28

students were also told that if they tried to leave that assembly,

1:10:30

they could be suspended for it. Well, that's troubling.

1:10:33

The worst mistake in big quotes is

1:10:35

when the district rationalized their error

1:10:38

by saying this assembly was student led

1:10:40

and it occurred during non-instructional

1:10:43

time. So we weren't pulling kids out of classes

1:10:45

to see this thing. But the thing is

1:10:47

one wasn't student led and

1:10:50

the period in question, the non-instructional

1:10:52

time, it's kind of like a homeroom

1:10:55

period in the district where students

1:10:57

are supposed to meet with their teachers for extra

1:10:59

help, go study somewhere. Like just

1:11:01

because you're not in class doesn't mean it's

1:11:03

not instructional.

1:11:04

If they have to do it every day, then obviously the

1:11:06

school sees some value there.

1:11:07

Right. And in fact, there

1:11:10

was a student named Max at the time. He

1:11:12

staged a walkout during like

1:11:15

this is days later after students complained about

1:11:17

this. He staged a walkout among

1:11:19

his peers saying, let's walk out during

1:11:22

non-instructional time. Wow. Good

1:11:24

for that. Apparently the school doesn't think that time

1:11:27

is important. He said if a revivalist

1:11:29

Christian sermon can be held for students

1:11:32

during that time, we claim the absolute

1:11:34

ability to protest the violation of our

1:11:36

rights that accompanied this sermon during

1:11:38

the same apparently pointless period.

1:11:42

He was joined by over a hundred students, by the way.

1:11:45

Not bad. Not bad. Wow. Wow.

1:11:49

Freedom from Religion Foundation got involved. They wanted all the information

1:11:51

about this. And it turns

1:11:53

out what they discovered is this is so

1:11:55

not a one off mistake made

1:11:57

by the district

1:11:58

in 2019.

1:11:59

They had written to the superintendent regarding

1:12:02

religious clubs that were created by adults.

1:12:04

The school never responded. In 2017,

1:12:07

they wrote to the previous superintendent about

1:12:09

other religious assemblies during the school

1:12:11

day because those were happening then

1:12:14

too. They can't stop. They can't stop. And for

1:12:16

the assembly with Nick Walker, FFRF

1:12:19

found that the principal approved it,

1:12:21

attended it, knew it was not student

1:12:23

led, and did nothing to stop the event

1:12:25

even when it became clear what was happening. Yeah,

1:12:28

that's so suspiciously like the truth. Uh-huh.

1:12:30

So they eventually filed a federal lawsuit

1:12:32

against the district on behalf of that. Yep,

1:12:35

against MAX because they were violating the

1:12:37

U.S. Constitution. Oh, on behalf of

1:12:39

MAX and the parents of several

1:12:41

other students, um,

1:12:44

and they filed the lawsuit. They asked for one dollar

1:12:46

per plaintiff in damages because

1:12:48

it's about the money. And bottom

1:12:51

line is after years of, well

1:12:53

after more than a year of this case, this

1:12:56

week the school district agreed,

1:12:58

will settle this case and just get

1:13:01

it out of court.

1:13:02

And

1:13:03

what they agreed to is the following. One

1:13:05

is they're going to pay the legal bills for FFRF,

1:13:08

which amounts to over $175,000. Yep. That's

1:13:10

what we were talking

1:13:13

about earlier. That's the big headline. It'll come out of

1:13:15

their insurance. Uh, so it's not like they're taking

1:13:17

money away from kids. But their insurance premiums

1:13:19

will probably go up. Maybe their insurance premiums go up.

1:13:22

Also, they will, they said we've

1:13:24

made policy changes that say annual

1:13:26

in-service training will be required

1:13:28

for all employees regarding church state

1:13:30

separation laws. Wow. Um, they're

1:13:33

going to make sure principals will attempt

1:13:35

in good faith to monitor graduations,

1:13:37

assemblies, athletic events, and other school sponsored

1:13:40

activities to make sure religion is not seeping

1:13:42

through. They will require those

1:13:44

principals to report any potential violations

1:13:47

within seven days. And students

1:13:49

are forbid, I'm sorry, teachers, employees

1:13:51

are forbidden from initiating religious

1:13:54

worship with students.

1:13:56

So aren't those all the real regular

1:13:58

laws?

1:13:58

I mean, they should be some of those.

1:15:59

sees her

1:16:01

for saying my religion says

1:16:03

I don't have to follow the law even though my job is to

1:16:05

follow the law.

1:16:05

Sorry that I'm an actual idiot. Like

1:16:07

can you tell me what a sanction

1:16:10

is as I'm

1:16:10

a child? Yeah here's what happened.

1:16:12

December of 2019 Texas

1:16:17

Justice of the Peace, Diane Hensley,

1:16:19

she's allowed to perform court marriages,

1:16:21

court weddings, right? Like a couple

1:16:24

says we don't want to do a big elaborate thing, we just want

1:16:26

to come to the courthouse, get approved, whatever.

1:16:28

She's allowed to do that and she could do

1:16:30

it like for a side cost. It's a side gig

1:16:33

for some of these judges. Sure. Like I'll perform weddings

1:16:35

for like a hundred bucks a pop. Yeah fine. So

1:16:38

she was doing that but she said I'm

1:16:40

not gonna do it for gay couples. Whoops.

1:16:43

In 2019 she was given a public warning

1:16:45

by the Texas Commission on Judicial

1:16:48

Conduct. Doesn't mean

1:16:50

they were removing her from the job. They

1:16:52

just said you're casting.

1:16:53

Like a slap on the wrist kind of deal.

1:16:56

It really was. Like

1:16:56

a public. Hey acknowledgement

1:16:59

of you did a bad thing?

1:17:01

They said she was casting doubt on her capacity

1:17:03

to act impartially and she could be

1:17:05

punished in the future. They were not

1:17:07

removing her from the job but like

1:17:09

hey we might have to do

1:17:11

something about it we're not sure what

1:17:14

yet. Like I said. Keep an eye on this

1:17:16

situation. Right. But

1:17:18

so that's what they mean by sanction. Like we might

1:17:20

slap you on the wrist or say hey you're not

1:17:22

allowed to do this sort of thing. But they

1:17:25

were not saying we're gonna

1:17:25

fire you. Like it could

1:17:28

relate to fines or

1:17:29

disbarred. It could. But nothing

1:17:31

had been decided about that.

1:17:32

I guess what I'm trying to establish is like this

1:17:34

is all internal like internal

1:17:37

like judge. Yes okay.

1:17:39

Yeah.

1:17:40

So how did she respond to that threat

1:17:42

of like hey if you are being a bigot

1:17:44

here we may have to do something about

1:17:46

it. Oh her response was you're right

1:17:48

I see the error of my ways. Right. No she sued them.

1:17:50

She sued the Commission

1:17:55

on judicial conduct because

1:17:57

how dare they point out her Christian bigotry. In

1:18:00

her lawsuit, they said the commission violated

1:18:03

the Texas Religious Freedom Restoration

1:18:05

Act by investigating and

1:18:07

punishing Judge Hensley for recusing

1:18:10

herself from officiating at same-sex weddings.

1:18:12

They did not punish her. But

1:18:14

basically, they said the state of Texas has substantially

1:18:17

burdened the free exercise of her religion

1:18:20

with no compelling justification,

1:18:22

which is weird because there was compelling justification.

1:18:25

The justification is people deserve to be

1:18:27

treated equally under the law. And

1:18:29

a gay couple that wants to get married should have the

1:18:31

same ability to do it as a straight couple. That's it.

1:18:34

And if a judge says, I perform wedding ceremonies,

1:18:37

and if you say I'm only doing it for straight couples and not

1:18:40

gay ones, then you shouldn't be offering the

1:18:42

service. That's it. Being

1:18:44

Christian doesn't allow you as a government official

1:18:47

to ignore the law. It wasn't okay with Kim

1:18:49

Davis. She has now had to pay

1:18:51

the price for it, literally, and it shouldn't be

1:18:53

okay with Hensley. She wanted $10,000 in

1:18:56

damages, Hensley did, because

1:18:58

she's like, that's the money you took from me because I can't

1:19:01

do weddings anymore, basically. She

1:19:03

also wanted a declaration that everyone

1:19:05

in her position could pull the stone stunt

1:19:08

if their God commanded it. Now,

1:19:10

in 2021, a judge tossed out her

1:19:12

case on technicalities, basically saying

1:19:14

the commission, the ethics commission, like

1:19:17

they have sovereign immunity from law. You can't

1:19:19

go after them because you don't like what they say.

1:19:23

It's like suing ethics itself. You just can't do

1:19:25

that. And an appeals court said, yeah,

1:19:27

this is stupid. We're affirming that

1:19:29

ruling. This case is bullshit. But

1:19:32

Diane Hensley wanted the state Supreme Court

1:19:34

to hear this case, and that is what they decided

1:19:37

to do last week.

1:19:38

I think my understanding

1:19:39

of how American law works

1:19:42

is getting more accurate

1:19:44

and darker. Her

1:19:46

lawyer, guess who her lawyer is. His name is Jonathan

1:19:49

Mitchell. What's he famous for? Oh,

1:19:51

God, probably defending a fetus.

1:19:53

Close. Very close. He's the former state's

1:19:56

solicitor general who is behind

1:19:58

the state's abortion bounty law. Oh,

1:20:01

I was really close

1:20:02

actually. So she got the guy

1:20:04

who's like, oh, if you know someone who knew someone

1:20:06

who is getting an abortion, you can

1:20:09

cattle on them and give you money

1:20:11

for

1:20:11

it. Just like Jesus did. Wait,

1:20:13

because Jesus is really happy when

1:20:15

Judas turned him in for 30

1:20:18

pieces of silver or gold or

1:20:20

whatever. It's grazed throughout the book.

1:20:22

Like everybody in the Bible is like, great

1:20:24

job, Judas.

1:20:24

Yeah. Yep. And

1:20:27

the thing is like, she could have avoided this. Take your example

1:20:28

and apply it to the rest of

1:20:30

the world. Yes. She could have avoided this

1:20:32

whole situation if she just said, I don't want to

1:20:34

perform same sex marriages for religious

1:20:36

reasons. All she had to do

1:20:38

is say, fine, then I won't perform marriages

1:20:40

as part of my side hustle. But

1:20:43

no, she wants her cake and need it too. She's like, no

1:20:45

one's forcing her to perform weddings against

1:20:47

her will. She chose to do that. But

1:20:50

she wants the ability to sign marriage certificates

1:20:52

for straight couples and not gay ones. And

1:20:54

she thinks her religion takes priority over

1:20:56

the law, even though she's working for the government.

1:20:59

If we allow government officials to pick

1:21:01

and choose which rules to follow, everything

1:21:04

turns into chaos and it would make a mockery

1:21:07

out of civil rights. Like

1:21:09

as the point, I mean, the commission's

1:21:11

lawyer even explained no one's punishing

1:21:14

or threatening to punish her for her religious

1:21:16

views. It's all about her actions.

1:21:19

If a Christian judge made it clear, he doesn't want to perform

1:21:21

any marriages because he's a bigot.

1:21:23

That'd be fine. No one would be upset about it.

1:21:25

Like legally speaking, but she

1:21:28

is doing something that's illegal. What's interesting

1:21:30

is she can, she did an interview with the Dallas

1:21:32

Morning News last month, Diane Hensley

1:21:34

did. And she said, I haven't performed marriages

1:21:37

in years, partly because like

1:21:39

she's been very depressed about this whole situation.

1:21:42

A huge loss, I'm sure for everyone. She

1:21:45

should. She also claimed falsely that

1:21:47

children living with opposite sex

1:21:50

parents spare better in life. That's

1:21:52

not true. There was also this anecdote. I

1:21:54

did not realize this until now. She has

1:21:57

a now deceased gay brother and

1:21:59

she said. after he had a falling out with

1:22:01

their parents over what she described

1:22:03

as quote economics i don't know

1:22:05

what that means hensley said she hired

1:22:08

a detective to track him down once

1:22:10

a year and take a photograph

1:22:12

as a gift for their mother one

1:22:15

year he was in paris another year in japan

1:22:17

then dubai she stalked

1:22:20

her gay brother

1:22:21

after he had a falling out with her

1:22:23

parents

1:22:24

and he was like living his best

1:22:26

life and she was tired a private

1:22:28

detective like can you take pictures of him

1:22:30

explains why she's a she's interested in the bounty

1:22:33

guy like she clearly

1:22:35

has like a spy bent to you more

1:22:37

no no lunatic

1:22:39

interesting her bounty lawyer also can

1:22:41

you imagine being her poor brother

1:22:43

and it's like my fucking conservative

1:22:46

sister who will not leave the state of

1:22:48

texas just once in a while it's

1:22:50

like i'm still mad at you here's

1:22:53

a picture like what is going on like

1:22:55

yeah yeah

1:22:56

and i'm gonna send it

1:22:58

to mom for the mom who apparently doesn't want

1:23:00

a relationship with the son either so

1:23:01

like what the hell are you doing oh god i

1:23:03

have so many questions about that she

1:23:05

did she did not elaborate her

1:23:07

lawyers argued in court in front of the

1:23:09

texas supreme court like hey the u.s

1:23:11

supreme court already said it's okay for a colorado

1:23:14

website designer who didn't want to make

1:23:16

wedding websites for gay couples like

1:23:19

the supreme court already sided with her

1:23:21

and remember this is the case where no

1:23:23

gay couples actually asked her to make

1:23:25

any wedding websites for them they was a lie

1:23:27

um but obviously there's a difference between

1:23:30

a private business owner and a government official

1:23:32

so i don't get why her attorneys tried to make that

1:23:35

analogy um but

1:23:37

if the texas supreme court you

1:23:38

can draw you can connect us

1:23:41

any which way if the supreme court agrees

1:23:43

with you sure

1:23:44

i mean look if the texas supreme court takes her

1:23:46

side on this one what is stopping

1:23:48

other judges from using religion as

1:23:50

an excuse to deny justice to any

1:23:53

other potential people and like there's

1:23:55

no reason there's no reason the judges

1:23:57

should rule in her favor again they could cop

1:23:59

out of this by just saying look it was tossed out on a

1:24:01

technicality, the sovereign immunity

1:24:03

thing. We're going to take that

1:24:06

out and we're not going to rule on the merits. They

1:24:08

could do that. I don't think they will. It's Republican

1:24:10

court. But there's no reason

1:24:13

to think justice, basic human decency

1:24:15

will win out here. The only hope I guess

1:24:17

we have is that they'll limit the damage they cause

1:24:19

or choose to uphold the earlier correct

1:24:22

decisions. Maybe cross your fingers on that.

1:24:24

That brother stalking is really creepy. I swear

1:24:26

that was the highlight of that article where I'm like, what

1:24:28

the hell is happening in her

1:24:30

life? Not to be too conspiratorial, but do

1:24:32

we know what's cause of death?

1:24:33

No, I don't. Okay. I

1:24:35

don't. That poor man. Seriously.

1:24:37

Although it sounds like he really, what did you say

1:24:39

Paris Dubai?

1:24:40

He went all over the place. Good for him, man.

1:24:43

It's a life. That's all I got for

1:24:45

you. Where do we find you? You

1:24:48

can go to patreon.com slash friendly

1:24:50

atheist podcast to support

1:24:52

this show. My Kickstarter

1:24:55

for the revelation series is still

1:24:57

up for another week. That link

1:24:59

is in the show notes. If you are so inclined

1:25:01

to support it and we'll stick your name in

1:25:03

the credit

1:25:04

as a thank you. Yep. And we

1:25:06

can all, you can always leave us a review.

1:25:09

Do I have any new ones? Oh, this

1:25:11

one is one star. Yes. Want

1:25:13

to like this show. This could actually be a great show of

1:25:15

Jessica didn't sing laugh or talk. Maybe he

1:25:17

should just do the show alone. Oh, well, I will keep

1:25:19

looking for another show.

1:25:21

I'm going to first stop to write

1:25:23

something nasty. Be 80 seconds.

1:25:26

That's fun. All right. Go

1:25:29

leave us five star reviews to offset that

1:25:31

dude who doesn't listen to our show.

1:25:32

On the bonus episode, I

1:25:35

want to talk to you about a couple

1:25:37

of things. One. Oh, you know,

1:25:40

I just recorded today on your therapist needs

1:25:42

therapy. I was a guest on that podcast that should be coming

1:25:44

out. Oh, the later

1:25:46

in the month, I think. I also listened

1:25:48

to a true crime podcast series yesterday

1:25:51

called ghost story. And I really

1:25:53

need to talk to somebody

1:25:54

about it and good news. You're here.

1:25:56

Excellent. And also if we have

1:25:58

time, I'm not finished with it but

1:26:00

fall of the house of

1:26:01

usher is blowing my

1:26:03

mind it's so fucking good I can't

1:26:05

believe it all right we'll see you next week

1:26:08

goodbye