0:07

Hello and welcome to Friends with Deficits. I'm your host Adam Sultan and my next friend is Rebecca

0:14

McEnroy, who is an award-winning executive producer, creator and host of many different

0:21

radio shows and podcasts. If you are in Austin and listen to KUT, you've probably heard her show Two

0:28

Guys on Your Head. She also produces the podcast American Compassion and See You Now, which is on

0:35

the work of Nursing and Nurses created in collaboration with Johnson & Johnson and the

0:39

American Nurses Association. So you know, a real host and podcaster and I'm more than excited to

0:46

have her on the show. We had a great conversation, covered a lot of ground about her life and life in

0:53

general and various other issues. We didn't even really have a beginning to speak of, so I'm just

1:00

gonna drop you in right as we were discussing a party we were both at about a week earlier where

1:06

maybe we had a little too much fun. I don't know. Anyway, here's my conversation with Rebecca

1:11

McEnroy. I got so fucking wasted. I was like, all of a sudden I'm like, I'm fucking drunk. I don't think

1:21

I've been that drunk since, I don't know, at least a couple days before that. I was waiting for the

1:28

answer to that. I'm like, no, I don't know what I mean. I just don't usually get. I can drink like,

1:34

you know, a couple glasses of wine relatively frequently. And I'm fine. You seem fine until the

1:42

very last moment. We're like, whoa, Rebecca's cool. No. Right now. I gotta leave right now. But

1:48

it's fun. Yeah, it's fun. Good time. Yeah. Do you identify as an alcoholic? I don't see alcoholism.

1:58

I don't see alcohol. See alcoholism? Oh my God. I've never asked that question. Have you had an

2:10

alcoholic in your family? Since you don't see it, I guess it's hard to tell. It is true. It's hard to

2:18

tell. You know, I think probably my dad is an alcoholic. I don't know. I mean, I haven't seen my

2:25

dad for 25, 67 years. But I think that growing up, my grandpa made wine and sold it and like, you know,

2:35

like had a winery. So there was always wine in our house. It was always like we had wine. Everybody

2:43

had wine. Kids, like everybody, you know, when we'd have like lunch on Sunday. I can't remember

2:49

not having wine with a meal when I was a kid. Were you taught to drink it responsible or were you like,

2:56

whoa, I feel funny. No, I think we were supposed to drink it responsible. It was like we were supposed

3:00

to, you know, there was a little bit of wine in your glass, you'd get just like this much and they'd fit

3:06

water and the rest of it. When did you discover, oh, this has an effect? It never really had that much of

3:12

an effect. I mean, we probably, it probably did. But the way that we had a meal was it took like five or

3:18

six hours to eat our lunch and Sunday afternoon. And so it was so boring to me that I just, this is just

3:25

boring. It didn't really have an effect. But that said, I think my dad and my grandparents drank a

3:32

lot. My mom didn't drink a lot. My dad and my grandparents, I think did. And then my dad drank a

3:37

lot of like scotch and stuff too. But it was always like, this is what we do, you know. I think this is a

3:45

generational thing. Yeah. You know, there was always like get the, bring the bottle of scotch to

3:49

the friends, the other dinners and it's just a thing you do. It was like, there was alcohol

3:54

everywhere when I was a kid, everywhere, all the time. And now, I wonder what my kids think because

4:01

like, I'll buy a bottle of wine for if we have a nice meal and then drink like a glass or two. And then the

4:09

bottle of wine will be there until our next nice meal. You know, but when I was coming up, there was

4:14

like a liquor cabinet with liquor in it, like all kinds of liquor. As you do. As you want to do. And in

4:22

high school, I drank a lot of that liquor. I was a really big Elkie when I was in high school. But

4:29

then, not so much after that. What about other drugs? I think there was a time in high school when

4:38

all my friends started doing drugs. But I didn't because I had to have surgery on my nose and throat.

4:46

I think I was turning 16 or 17, maybe turning 17. There's a group of us, seven friends. And they kind

4:54

of all went down the weed road and like, I just missed the window of opportunity. And then I

5:03

wasn't in the no, you know, I wasn't in the group to do it. I wasn't, I just kind of, and they would do it.

5:09

And what's really funny is that like, I kind of a little bit lost my mind because I was on demoral and

5:15

some things when I was had after the snow surgery and it was very difficult surgery. So that was when

5:19

we were like 17, right? We're still friends. And they came here a couple of summers ago. And they, or

5:25

I mean, anytime I get together with them, they like get high before we go out. And they don't even

5:31

invite me to get high with them. They don't even like let me in on the thing. Because I think they're

5:36

just so like, you don't get high. I mean, I would like to, yeah, with friends and, you know, but

5:42

like, I just, just not my scene. I don't know how to get into the thing. Like my daughter for, this is

5:49

really funny. But my daughter, I went, I got in her car the other day and there was a packet of vising in

5:56

her car. And I was like, who's getting stoned in your car? And she goes, and I was like, she just

6:01

didn't say anything. And I was, and then I asked her again about it. And she's like, Karina did it was

6:05

not me. And I was like, where did, does she smoke it? Does she get gummies? Like, what does she do? You

6:11

know, because it's everywhere now, right? You can get by it. Actually, I buy it gummies. And then I

6:16

usually give them away before I even do them. Well, I never, I don't do them. So I give them away. I like

6:22

to smoke a joint and like have a lot of sex. And then that's, I'm good, you know, but that's the only

6:28

time I've ever done it. And I don't like when I like, so if I have some to try to go to sleep, I can't

6:33

because I can't connect thoughts. I hate that. Anyway, long story long, I said, she told me Karina

6:38

did it. And she was, I was like, well, what does she do? How she smokes? I was like, where do you buy

6:43

that? You buy weed like that? Like, how do you what? You know, I was like, genuinely curious. And she's

6:49

like, I do not want to talk to you about that. She drives to Colorado. And then she tells me that they

6:55

make it in a vape thing. And so I was like, oh, and to me, vaping is the epitome of like, trash.

7:06

Everyone's doing it. It's so trash. Like, and I think, like smoking at least was elegant a little

7:14

bit, you know, like, not the way that Americans do it. But like, you know, there is a type of romance

7:21

and a romantic history of smoking, right? There is no fucking romance in vaping. Vaping is just so

7:30

gross. First of all, I guess it doesn't smell that bad. But like, I see people vape, like they hold it

7:36

weird. I know. It's the fucking word. Like, what are we as a people? Like, this is what we're doing

7:42

now. It's not even sexy. I know. I know. It pisses me off vaping. I guess it's sexy on the inside. I don't

7:48

know. I'm so judgmental. Chloe says I'm the most judgmental person. That's my daughter. She's

7:52

like, you're so judgmental. You're the worst. And maybe I am because stuff like that, I really do have

7:56

like a strong opinion. Like, oh, yeah. People like friends I know who do it, they're kind of like

8:03

embarrassed by it. Like, they just seem like they're kind of hunching over and like, let's get

8:05

this over with, you know, like an inhaler. It's like an inhaler. It's like an inhaler. Yeah. It's

8:10

like an inhaler. It is an inhaler. You cannot be. But it's like the old school, you know, asthma

8:13

inhaler. It's so not sexy. Yeah. At least drinking wine and like smoking is a little sexy, you know?

8:22

Yeah. And like, just imagine if you even smoked with like one of those long holders, like, oh, get

8:28

out of town. Like, but it's like, but being actually around it or having to smell somebody.

8:35

It's so weird how sterile our society is now, just for like cigarette smoke. I don't mean like. Yeah,

8:40

but that's maybe what the vaping is. Sterile. It's like sterile. Yeah, but it kind of kills you from

8:47

within. Sucks your life out. Gives you popcorn on whatever the fuck that is. What the fuck is that? I

8:54

don't know. I hate life. I just hate people. I don't hate people. I do. What happened? Why did you have a

9:03

nose and throat surgery? Because I smoked for six months. Get the fuck out. And I was a kid, you know,

9:11

and I played volleyball and I just. Wait, no, smoking for six months does not equate having a

9:17

surgery. It does for me because I had, I guess, like I had broken my nose so many times when I was a kid

9:23

that I had a very bad deviated septum and I couldn't breathe. Why did you break your nose so many times?

9:27

I broke it playing football and playing frisbee and soccer or football. No, like football,

9:34

American football. Okay. I broke when I was a child, both my legs, both my arms twice, my nose,

9:42

all five of my toes, my finger. And that was just when I was a kid. And then growing up, I broke a lot

9:47

more things. But I'd broken my nose so much that the septum was so deviated that I had to have it crushed

9:53

and reconstructed. And my ad, I had to have my adenoids out and then my tonsils out because there

10:00

was so much like buildup or whatever from cigarettes. And I didn't, I was a teenager, you

10:06

know, I got cigarettes when I could steal them. So. You sure it was from smoking? I mean, it was

10:11

probably from everything, like something else, but they were just like, oh, she's in bad shape. But

10:17

after that, I tried to smoke again. I couldn't. It was too painful. Is it still painful? If you smoke?

10:25

No, psychologically. I mean, I'm not around smoke enough to, and I don't want to smoke. You're not

10:31

like I smoke when I drink and then you end up getting drunk and smoking a bunch. No, no. Oh, I can't even

10:36

hardly drink and not have to take a shower. Wow. Like I feel so gross. Things make me feel gross very

10:44

quickly. So I, and maybe it's because I run a lot. I run a lot. I clear out a lot of detritus. How much you

10:52

doing? Yesterday I ran for three hours. Wait. Because I think that's like a fucking, that's

10:59

like, that's a marathon. No, it's not for me. It's not a marathon. Okay. Three hours is a lot. How many

11:05

miles are you clocking? Probably not every minute, like, because I take my time. I take my

11:09

sweet time. And after I severed my hamstring in that ski accident, then I just kind of have to not go

11:14

fast. But I ran from the understates or trevus, you know, and moped back right on Lake Austin

11:21

Boulevard to the Pernallis Bridge on the east side and then just ran back, just that little loop. It's

11:27

at least 10 miles. Something like that. Do you do that how often? I'll do that like, you know, every

11:33

couple of weeks whenever I can. And then every day I just run four or five miles a day. It's like, you

11:39

said like, yeah, whatever. It doesn't seem like a lot. It's a lot. I used to do that. Like I ran a half

11:46

marathon and training for it was like that. But I took days off. Yeah. I take days off when I have to,

11:52

like today, probably. I mean, hopefully I'll get to go run after we have our interview. And I'll edit

11:58

my show while I run. But how do you do it while you run in your head? I edit my head and I make notes. Okay. I

12:04

really like to run. If I don't run, I feel really bad physically and mentally. Running is one of the few

12:11

exercises where I feel like where you get the high basically. Yeah. You get that like runner's high

12:15

thing. Do you get the runner's high? I did when I was running. When I was running long lengths. Yeah.

12:22

I'd be like, have you not had it? I don't know if I have or not. Oh, I mean, you know, you feel high.

12:27

Like it's like after run, it's like, I would do this morning like in a running group on a Saturday

12:31

morning and afterwards I'm in my car and I'm like, oh man, I feel fucking amazing. I just felt really

12:37

like, you know, just cleansed or something. See, maybe I feel like that every time. Maybe I get high

12:42

every time I run. And I also like how you could be like, I need, I could eat two steaks because you

12:46

need to. Yeah. I know. And you know, another thing about it is sometimes I'll listen to the music that

12:53

my daughter makes these playlists for working out. And the music is so good that she chooses that

12:59

sometimes I feel like I'm flying. I feel like there's one song by Saul Williams. I think it's

13:05

called Burundi. I listen to that song when I run and it's just like, I feel like that's what humans are

13:12

supposed to do. They're supposed to run through the woods like to this type of music. Wow. And I like

13:22

to run on the trail. Tapped into the primal. Right. I really do feel like, yeah. You know, have you

13:29

always been an athlete of sorts or? In whole life, yeah. Like that's really all we did when I was a kid.

13:36

Every single sport we could do. Damn. And just, you know, run around like I grew up in a very small town

13:43

right on the edge of the, between the town and the country in Iowa, Wilton, Iowa. As kids, I have two

13:51

older siblings, a brother and a sister and one younger. My older siblings and I and our kind of

13:56

friends that were around the town. When we weren't in school during the summers, we would play

14:01

outside all day, every day. We would play this game where we would go jowing, it was called, and we

14:07

would break up into teams. We would hide. Like we would hide in the town, you know, sometimes on the

14:14

roof of our house, sometimes like we would just hide. And then the other team had to wait in our

14:19

garage and then they went and tried to find us. And it took all night long. We would hide and then run,

14:27

you know, like if they saw us run and they had to chase us all over town. It was all over town. It was

14:33

fucking insane, lunacy. I don't know what we were thinking when we were kids. One time my brother

14:37

couldn't find me and I fell asleep in a tree. In a tree. Yeah. And I think my sister found me or

14:43

something like that. She's like, I think that's a rag. Hang on a tree. No, that's Susie. My nickname

14:47

is Susie. Yeah, that's Susie. Yeah. And then I just played track and basketball, volleyball,

14:53

whatever they'd let us play, you know, baseball. So much baseball, softball. You still play any of

15:00

those? I coached my son's baseball team. I would play volleyball, you know, and basketball, but

15:06

you need other people. And I don't have that many people who play sports like that. And I'm so busy. I

15:14

guess. Busy is not the right word. Everybody's busy, right? But like, I have so many other things

15:20

that press on my need to be somewhere. So like you're busy. Yeah, I guess that's it. But it's

15:27

different than being busy because busy, you have like, control over your time. I mean, sometimes

15:32

I'm with my kids. I'm not busy, but I can't be anywhere else. You know what I mean? So like, my

15:39

time is not always my time. But when it is my time, I don't have work that I have to get done. Or house

15:48

fucking cleaning and shit like that. Like, I would love to like go out with a bunch of friends and play

15:54

volleyball, you know, but like, I can't fucking get people together. I'm not very good at tennis. I

16:00

would love to play tennis with somebody. You know, I take my kids bowling and play soccer with them and

16:06

do a bunch of kids stuff. My daughter likes to bowl, but she doesn't really like to do a lot of other

16:12

sporty stuff. But now she's working out. So that's really fun. Like working out and lifting weights

16:17

kind of thing. At the Y. Cool. It's so cool. It's so cool. I feel like I've dreamed about this day on my

16:23

life. Like, oh, she's working up. I gotta go work out with my daughter. Like, I used to drag her to the

16:30

gym and she would hate it, you know, just so I could run if it was cold outside. Did you put her in the

16:37

kids section? Yeah, she fucking hated that. Like, that never ever worked out. Or I'd put her in the

16:42

stroller. I still have a stroller for my son and he's five. And I would put Chloe in the stroller

16:47

until she was like six. I'd bribe her. I'd be like, let's run down to Sandy's and I'll buy you frozen

16:52

custard and french fries if you sit in this stroller. I mean, I pushed her from where we live in

16:58

West like to Sandy's. Like down Barton Springs, you know. You kept your word at least. I did. I got

17:06

her stuff. But it would be like cold and dark by the time we'd get home. But it was fun. I don't do that to

17:15

Jack because now I make Chloe watch Jack so I can run. I have had some little crazy moments when I

17:21

haven't been able to run. I remember driving down Lamar because my ex husband Chloe's dad said he

17:26

would watch Chloe for an hour so I could run. And I was stuck in traffic and that hour was like

17:32

shortening and shortening and shortening and I punched the roof of my car and I bled and Chloe was

17:38

like, Mom. And I was like, this is mommy freaking out. I was going to ask you something. Do you think

17:58

buddhism helps you to calm your nervous system in situations where it's hard to calm your nervous

18:10

system? Possibly, but it's not, that's a byproduct, I would say. Yeah. It's not a goal per

18:19

se. I had a conversation with a friend of mine the other night and she was like, are you a buddhist?

18:25

And I was like, why would you say that? I was like, no. But the little conversation was about when I

18:31

left Houston and moved here, I was living in a house with my ex and my kids and we were moving back here

18:40

but we're going to keep our place in Houston. Moving here was going to be a temporary thing and my

18:45

daughter was going to finish high school here and then we'd move back to Houston and keep the house

18:48

and everything. So I came here with my summer clothes and a few things and everything else was in

18:59

Houston, like all my books, all my memorabilia, all my clothes really, all my accoutrements. Like

19:07

basically a whole house, your whole life. So long story long, I was recounting this experience of

19:14

coming here with just basic stuff that I needed for the summer, knowing I'd be able to go back and forth

19:20

and then when my ex left us during the summer and went to Houston and split completely, I haven't

19:29

been back to that house in Houston and I don't have any of my stuff. It's all in storage. I haven't seen

19:35

it. But I was just saying, well, I guess that's all my stuff. I want to be that person to be like, throw

19:44

it all away. Motherfucker. You know what I mean? Throw it all away. I want to be that person. I want to

19:49

be that strong and then I think, oh, I'm not. Yeah, it's hard. I mean, sometimes life will take care of

19:56

that for you. Yeah, it might just blow up, right? Everything and I don't care. I do care but I don't

20:02

really care because when I was with my ex and had the kids there and everything, I was buying furniture

20:09

because we had a bigger place but I was buying furniture that I wanted them to have with them

20:13

their whole lives. I bought my son this chair that we could read stories in and he could take it to

20:19

college, stuff like that where it was very root oriented. It's funny because usually in my life,

20:25

there's been these moments where I set down roots and then uprooted then more roots and then

20:31

uprooted and then more roots and then uprooted and it's like... How many times have you set down roots

20:37

and been uprooted? Well, when I left high school, I moved to Europe and I just brought a backpack. I

20:46

actually probably a suitcase too, way too much stuff but after high school, I lived out of a

20:52

backpack for pretty much at least three or four years until I came back to my mom's house and at that

20:59

time, my dad was leaving all of us and I remember going through all my stuff that was from high

21:09

school and trophies and shit and just throwing it all away, just throwing every single thing away

21:16

and crying, throwing all of my ribbons, all of my... And I was just like, does it matter? Like none

21:22

of it matters, right? And I had to come back from Greece and I was in heaven in Greece. I really

21:28

wanted to stay there and then my dad wanted me to come back to the States and I came back under the

21:33

pretense that he was having a mental breakdown and then I came to find out that he was having more of

21:41

a... It was a mental breakdown but both of his parents had died, his parents had died and then he

21:47

was coming out of the closet and he'd been cheating on my mom with dudes, their whole marriage and he

21:53

was just this person I didn't even know. He didn't even relate to us, didn't want to have anything to

22:01

do with us. Did your mom know? I mean, he told her but she didn't know before that and it's funny because

22:08

he said, she said, well, we should tell the kids and he said, oh, Rebecca knows and I didn't know. So

22:14

maybe he told me when I was drunk. Full circle. But yeah, he was like having this big breakdown and I

22:23

was like, what the fuck? Now I can never go back to Greece and you've ruined my life. I didn't really

22:29

think you ruined my life. I just thought, oh, this is happening. It was just very painful. It was very

22:34

painful. My whole life was being upended again plus reverse culture shock, plus I'd had such an

22:41

incredible experience in Greece and there were so many possibilities there. I wanted to be a

22:47

observer in the Balkans and one of my professors was hooking that up and then this and that and doing

22:54

more of the program that I was working on and I was speaking Greek and I was studying in Greek and I had

22:59

such wonderful friends there and then he was like, well, you have to come back for the family and he

23:04

wasn't supporting me. I was working. I was teaching English. I was, what else was I doing

23:08

there? I was doing something else for money. We won't talk about that. No, I'm kidding. I was doing

23:16

something else for money, but I was teaching English and it was like, you have to come back for

23:21

the family. Did he give you any clue? What was going on? My mom was like, well, your father's in the

23:27

hospital. Was he in the hospital? Yeah. He had a stroke and some other stuff. That's more than

23:33

just- I know, but he was diagnosed with being schizophrenic and bipolar and it was just all this

23:41

craziness and I was like, what? Who are you? At that time? Yeah, but I don't think he was

23:47

schizophrenic. I don't think he was bipolar. I just think he was gay and he was living a double life

23:50

and the people who he was seeing who were the therapists were all these religious therapists.

23:57

My dad was a bishop in the Lutheran Church. Oh, shit. So he was also leaving his job and leaving his

24:05

life really and his identity. We'd been a mask for him, the kids and my mom. He was having a legit

24:14

breakdown, but I didn't have to be there for that. Why do I have to be there for that? I'm just a kid. So I

24:20

was a little bit pissed and I couldn't really get back. So that was one uprooting upheaval. That was

24:27

a big upheaval. What happened to him after that? What happened to him after that? He moved out. Was

24:33

there any sense of reconciling and like- Yeah, my mom was like, well, we can work this out. I remember

24:41

watching like Masterpiece Theater and sitting on the couch together and holding hands and I was

24:47

like, what the fuck? Crazy shit is this. They never held hands when they were together. And I was just

24:57

like, this is so fucking weird. And I just feel like he struggled. I mean, my dad, I feel bad for him. He

25:08

grew up very difficult time in American history in Sioux City, Iowa, where they were arresting

25:15

people and beating people up for being gay. And he grew up religious. He grew up on a farm to immigrant

25:21

parents. He just had a really bad childhood, probably was abused in his youth and never could

25:32

fully accept himself as a gay person, never could fully accept that he was desired men. I don't even

25:39

know, right? He hasn't even really talked to me about it, but I just feel like that's very, it must

25:44

be a very hard position to be in. But then again, at the same time, he was able to move to London. That's

25:51

where he met my mom. And I'm like, shit, man, that was your out. You could have gotten away and lived

25:58

your life in Europe and not had to hide yourself, not had to be still in the church. He could have done

26:07

something else with his life. Your parents are British, your mom's British. My mom's British.

26:12

But yeah, I mean, it's like, like the literature I read was like, I mean, I just finished reading

26:18

Tropic of Thunder. No, Tropic of Thunder. Tropic of Cancer. That's hilarious. So I just written a

26:30

Tropic of Cancer and I was like that was published in 34, given it was banned for 30 years. But like,

26:37

fuck, you know, I mean, there's enough that he could have, that was on the road, you know, there

26:45

was, in Ginsburg, there were like, there were other pathways. I don't know why he, I don't know.

26:51

The incident where he talked to me about it. Yeah. So again, like when he left, did he ever come around

26:56

to like accepting his identity or do you know, do you have a relationship with him? I don't know. I

27:00

don't know. I mean, he moved out and then I heard he was seeing a guy that he was dating, you know, when

27:07

he was with my mom and then I heard that he had this like boy move in with him and he was like really,

27:14

really close with, I mean, I say boy, my dad's like in his 80s and this is like a 20 year old. That's a

27:19

boy. He's a boy. And so he was like living and I don't, I have no idea. I don't know. He doesn't talk

27:25

to me. Do you not, do you try to reach out to him or did you estranged him or? I never reached out. I mean, I

27:31

reached out a couple of times in the beginning. I was like, I would, I asked him if he would come to my

27:36

wedding when I got married. And I said, you know, I really, you kind of betrayed me as a dad and left,

27:43

but I would like you to be at my wedding like as a friend and he wrote my in-laws and he said, Rebecca

27:52

doesn't want me to come so I won't be there. And I was like, dude, that's not what I wrote in that letter.

27:58

So it was like stuff like that where I'm like, I'm not even gonna deal with you. Because he is, I mean,

28:04

he is very narcissistic. And he was abusive and he, and he was abusive physically, emotionally to me

28:15

and he, and not to all of us kids, but he didn't like me. And he really favored my older sister to the

28:22

point where it was kind of gross. He treated her like she was his wife and he treated me like I was

28:31

this evil thing that he didn't have time for. Were you the only person that he was abusive to? My

28:39

brother too. My older brother too. I mean, looking back, I feel very fortunate that I was not the

28:44

favored one because my older sister has really bad problems. And so does my little sister. I mean,

28:51

like sexual abuse or? Like emotional incest. Wow. But for me, you know, he hated me from the

29:01

beginning. So I kind of felt a little bit like that was a gift because I didn't have the pretense of,

29:08

oh, I'm supposed to adore you and love you and you're right about everything. I always thought

29:12

you're a fucking dick and I hate you. What do you mean he didn't like you from the beginning? Like he

29:19

didn't like me? No, it's weird to explain. It's like I was in every sport, you know, my older sister

29:26

was in every sport and he would go to her games, but he would never go to my games, you know. It was stuff

29:32

like that. And I would ask him, why doesn't that ever go to my games? And my mom, he was always so

29:36

busy, you know, and she'd try to like cover up for him and it would be like, like little things like I

29:42

would be setting the table or something and he would be like, go to your home, it's your attitude,

29:48

you just have a bad attitude and you know, stuff like that. It was just a very different

29:53

relationship. Like for example, he didn't pay for any of my college, he paid for my siblings

29:57

colleges. Did you feel like you behaved as an outlier or felt like yourself like you were? Oh

30:02

yeah, I was like, I'm the total, I'm the rebel, I don't care. Like, my family was so fucking weird.

30:10

That's what we're here for. I know. This is in the psychiatrist's chair. But my family is so strange

30:16

that it was very much, there was this idea because we were very religious that like girls should be

30:23

seen and not heard. We were not supposed to talk or question. And I questioned everything. And I was

30:29

always making jokes. And I was always making jokes that were not appropriate. And I was always

30:34

getting in trouble at school. And I was always hanging out with my friends. And I was always like,

30:39

I just thought it was all such bullshit. You know, like the whole authority, I thought the church was

30:48

bullshit. I mean, I was a true believer. You know, don't get me wrong, I like put in my money for

30:54

tithing or whatever the fuck. But I couldn't really come to terms with the fact that the church

31:01

hated women so much, you know, and, and honestly, when I was growing up, like, hated black people,

31:09

you know, it was very racist. My upbringing was very racist. My dad was very racist and very

31:15

sexist. And my mom and her dad, you know, my grandpa, like I look to them and I look at their

31:22

faith. And I'm like, wow, you're really, you really believe this, you know, and my mom, like,

31:28

she was, she is a nurse. She did home health care. We delivered meals on wheels together. She

31:35

demonstrated a type of love that I could get down with. And she was religious. I'm like, okay, so not

31:43

it's not all bad, you know, like, here's my dad, this like, not nice person, alcoholic. It wasn't

31:52

my mom's religion. My mom was just like, love, you know, love and care and devotion and

32:02

selflessness. And I was like, if I'm going to be religious, I'm going to be that, you know, but I'm

32:09

not religious at all. But it was like such a bifurcation for me, because I'm like, this shit's

32:15

fucked up. But that, but my mom is really a kind person. Did you ever talk to her about her

32:26

relationship with your father or? Oh, yeah. We talk about all the time. Yeah. All the time. Like,

32:33

was she blindsided by a lot of it? Or was she there because she all devoted or? She was blindsided.

32:38

And she was there because she was devoted. I mean, he was her only love, you know, she was 20 or

32:45

something when they got married. She was so, she grew up very, you know, in Orpington, Kent, like

32:51

went to a girl's school, went to nursing school, worked at an orphanage and then got married. Wow.

32:59

Moved to the United States, moved to Nebraska, like way Western Nebraska, Potter, Nebraska,

33:06

town of like 300 people from London. And what had to like behead chickens when my dad went off to the

33:16

seminary and went off to school and got a PhD and did all that stuff. She was by herself with two kids,

33:22

you know? I mean, dropped there in the middle of fucking Nebraska. Can you imagine? Nebraska,

33:28

that shithole. That's such a shithole. I mean, it's a shithole. Noted. Oh, God, you know, I can't

33:43

even imagine. Did she remarried? No. She didn't even date really after my dad. She's so devoted to

33:50

us kids. Are you in touch with your siblings? Get along? Oh, yeah, you get along really well. Get

33:56

along really well as long as I'm not there. I tend to stir up the pot a little bit, but we get along, you

34:03

know, I talk to them on the phone and stuff. Is there one place or are they all spread out? They're all in

34:07

Iowa. Still. Yeah. Wow. My brother lived in New York for a long time and Chicago for a long time and

34:13

then got married and moved back to Iowa. Had two kids. Do you like it back there? I can honestly say

34:22

no, I don't. Better in Nebraska, though, right? No, Nebraska. Well, the thing is, I always thought

34:28

of myself as someone who could live anywhere. You know, just drop me in the middle of the world and I'd

34:32

be fine. In actual fact, I really don't like the Midwest and I really don't like Houston where I

34:40

lived before. And I really feel like I need certain things in my life. Like I need to be outdoors. I need

34:49

to be, you know, I need to have food that I like and the friends that I like, the work that I like, you

34:59

know, like the life that I like, the intellectual life that I like. And Iowa has a lot of really great

35:05

things and I have great, great friends there. But every time I go there, I feel like I'm suffocating.

35:14

But I felt like that since I was a teenager. So it could just be the air, the pesticides. I feel that

35:23

way in the summer here. Do you? From, you know, like March to October. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because

35:28

it's oppressive. Yeah, yeah. It's pretty bad. But do you feel like that anywhere? Like in California

35:33

when you go back? No, no, it's great. It's great. If it's not small, but generally that's, you know,

35:39

ocean air is great. It is great. We're going back to Greece this summer and I am going, my mom and my kids

35:45

and I'm like, I'm panicking already that we won't be able to go because we have like made two trips to

35:50

go and we haven't been able to make it. I want to go back so bad. It'll be great. It's weird how those

35:55

places like certain places just make you feel alive, you know? I just want to get away from it all.

36:04

I think that was the thing with, I studied anthropology when I was an undergrad for a while

36:07

and did archaeology and I think that was my drive was just like to not be around civilization,

36:15

ironically enough. It was just like- Like digging up old civilization. Get me out of here. I don't

36:22

know. I just, I do get that feeling. You're just like, just get me the fuck out of everywhere. Sure.

36:28

Yeah. For me, it's more like suicidal thoughts, but you know. It can't be that. Yeah, I don't- If it

36:35

ended now, maybe okay. I don't want to end it now. I just want to have time and space to think and be

36:43

without everything, you know? Without so many responsibilities. Well, that's running for me, I

36:50

think. If I were to run a marathon, I've said this before, people are like, how fast did you go? How

36:57

much was your time? And I was like, how much did they give me? I will fucking run. They'll give me seven

37:04

hours? I'll run for seven hours. If I have the space and time to run for seven hours, I would do it. Do you

37:10

get tired or in pain when you run great distances? And there's a second part of that question. Do you

37:17

feel like you're in pain and like you have a chronic- I feel like some people just get through

37:23

their lives and they're experiencing some sort of pain where it's like I'm kind of a wimp about that

37:27

stuff. I either feel like I can't really feel my body or like, oh no, I'm gonna die. I've got an itch.

37:33

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I do feel pain. I don't really- I just run through it. If it's bad enough,

37:44

I'll stop and walk. But I think yesterday I was like, my knee kind of hurt because I have a severed

37:51

hamstring on my left leg and that causes some problems every now and then. And was that from

37:57

running or something else? It was from a ski accident. But I feel so lucky for surviving that

38:02

and still being able to run that I just kind of run through it. I mean, I run slow, really slow. So, and

38:07

my runs are like, I don't know, I just run slow. I just listen to books on tape and then sometimes I

38:14

walk if I feel like it. If I feel like I'm in a lot of pain, then something would be wrong probably. I'm

38:20

not usually in a lot of pain. I usually just dicking around. That's like, I was a slow runner, but I love

38:29

sprinting. Yeah. Like, I'm gonna fly now. And you're sort of like, you're almost airborne. Yes,

38:35

I love that. I used to be a sprinter. Really? Yeah, that was what I did in, I did the 100, the 200. Oh,

38:41

damn, okay. I know. I used, I set a bunch of records when I was a kid in sprinting, but since my ski

38:48

accident, I can't sprint anymore. And you have no more medals to show for it or trophies? No medals,

38:54

nothing. I threw them all away. All my medals and trophies and badges and we're getting it on the

38:59

record now, here and now. Badges and plaques. Certificates of authenticity. It's funny. I wish

39:10

I kind of still had that stuff, but what am I, what the fuck am I gonna do with it? I don't know. Have a

39:15

party and you're like, oh, you can throw your coat in the bed in that room over there, open the door.

39:18

It's like, just like gold. All the awards and shit. Just flinging on top of that giant award. I would

39:26

love that. I don't even have my degrees from college or anything. I didn't go to any of my

39:33

graduation, my college graduations or anything. The only reason I was at my one when I got my masters

39:39

was because I was reading the names for graduation. Like the Moody College was paying me

39:44

to read the names for graduation. It was the only reason I was there when I got my masters. And like,

39:48

oh, and Rebecca, if I can write you have yours. So you went back and finished your grad or when you

39:53

were when you left Greece? Yeah. I got my undergraduate degree from the University of

39:58

Iowa. I took like five classes, got a degree at the University of Iowa, anthropology. It was so

40:04

bananas. And then I moved to Las Vegas with my now ex-husband, who is a wonderful person, a dear dear

40:12

friend of mine. But we moved to Las Vegas together. We were dating. We were dating in high school too. I

40:17

was teaching Greek at UNLV and I was waitressing, cocktail waitressing, waitressing, and doing

40:24

photography and producing his movies and whatever. And then he got into graduate school at

40:30

UT for our RTF. And I was like, I want to go to graduate school. So I applied and got into do a

40:36

masters in media studies. And so that took me a long time to finish because I got pregnant my last

40:43

semester of graduate school. All I had to do was write my thesis. But I had my daughter and got

40:51

divorced and was raising her on my own. And like within a year? Like within a year, yeah. Yeah, it

40:58

was a lot. So then I took my time. But I got it done. Speaking of that, you got a masters and you have

41:06

problems reading. What's that about? We haven't even discussed this. I know. I thought for a long

41:11

time that's why my dad didn't like me. Because I couldn't read very well. Because you literally

41:16

couldn't read when you were younger? Well, yeah, I would fake it all. His words to me were just like

41:21

fucking ants running around on pages, like just ants. I had no idea what was going on. By the way,

41:27

we're talking about dyslexia. Do they literally seem like they're moving? Like you can't focus on

41:33

them? Yeah, like moving around. It was very, very hard for me to put a sentence together. And that's

41:41

just reading and writing. That's just reading. Not really writing. I mean, I could write. Really?

41:46

But then I'd go back and it didn't make any sense. I mean, but I felt like I could write. But I don't know

41:51

how I even got through school other than the fact that I could glean very easily what was going on

42:00

based on the conversations and the lectures and stuff, but things like the Iowa tests of basic

42:07

skills and tests. I would cheat on them. Sometimes my teachers would give me the answers. Yeah. Mr.

42:16

Eckert used to give us the answers to all of the things. So that was good because he didn't want to

42:21

be seen as somebody who didn't, you know, couldn't teach kids. Right. But he was awful and his false

42:26

teeth would fly out. I mean, this is the thing. Here's the thing. Growing up in Iowa like I did,

42:33

this is going to sound fucking crazy. It is crazy. Right. I grew up, I went to a parochial school,

42:39

private school, a Lutheran school that my dad was kind of the head up because he was the pastor. And

42:47

there were like five people in my grade, you know, there were, I remember one time I was in the same

42:54

class, classroom with the same teacher as my older sister, who was three years older than me. So that

43:01

would have meant that she was in eighth grade and I was in fifth grade. Wow. There wasn't a lot of

43:10

teaching going on. I remember cheating a lot. At one time, one of the teachers was like, she's got

43:16

something wrong with her. Like she needs to go and have special training. So I got to walk down to the

43:21

public school. How old were you? I must have been like sixth grade. And I got to walk down to the

43:27

public school. And then I just sat with someone and as they read to me, and I was in heaven, you know, and

43:34

my mom read to me a lot. So I had a lot of like, I had a lot of books and literature in my life. Were they

43:41

like teaching the material you couldn't read on your own or was it some sort of test to see? No, they

43:45

were just reading me fun stories. But why did you have to go to the public school? Oh, why did I have to

43:49

go to the public school? Well, I think they were supposed to be like helping me. Right. But they

43:54

didn't really help me. They just read books to me. Okay. Like literature. Yeah. You know, like,

43:59

Charlotte's Web. Yeah. But it was so bizarre. My brother, on the other hand, was tested and he was

44:08

told that he was retarded and would not get past the eighth grade. And it ended up he was dyslexic as

44:14

well. He has a different type of dyslexia than me, but he was dyslexic as well. But that's what they

44:18

told him in the private school. I mean, my brother is a mechanical engineer. He is super

44:25

intelligent. What causes dyslexia? Do they know? I have no idea. I wasn't even diagnosed with

44:31

dyslexia until I was 13. I went through my undergrad because the college that I was in, I

44:38

don't even know how I graduated high school, but right after high school, I was on a volleyball

44:42

scholarship for one year and I was in a community college playing volleyball. And then I was like, I

44:47

can't do any of this stuff. Like I'm moving and I moved to London and I was working with my cousin or

44:53

husband at the BBC. I was doing odd jobs. I was waitressing. I was, you know, I produced a jazz

44:59

series at like a church. I was part of like an intellectual community and I didn't even know it.

45:06

So I got into things like literature. You know, my cousin was a, he did sound for the BBC, but he had to

45:12

go through all the scripts and stuff like that. So he would read me all the scripts and so we were

45:16

having intellectual conversations and I was in this intellectual milieu and I was writing a lot of

45:21

letters. I think that really, really helped me. I was writing. It was pre-internet when I moved to

45:26

London. So I was writing a letter a day, two or three letters a day. How did you get, you said you could

45:33

write, but you couldn't read? I could, but it was just painful. Like what's painful about reading?

45:40

What's painful for me about reading is when I'm trying to read something like a sentence or

45:46

especially when I'm trying to read it out loud to somebody or I'm trying to read reasons and I can't

45:52

fix the words so they make sense. I can't put them in the right order so they make sense and it fucking

45:59

hurts my soul. Like it hurts my body and I just want to be able to put it, and I can if I sit there and do it a

46:07

few times and go through it a few times, but this is every sentence. Still to this day? Still to this

46:13

day. I've understood that like maybe this is the stereotypical version of dyslexia that it's like

46:17

the words are all scrambled and mixed up, but like if you're just like running your finger across a

46:22

sentence, are you able like I took a walk to the park? Yeah, sometimes I can, but it's like certain

46:29

words get out of the order. They just don't make sense to me. The whole sentence doesn't make sense

46:36

and I can't figure out how to make it make sense. If you tried to read it out loud, you would read it in

46:43

the wrong order or you would read it as written and it wouldn't make sense to me? I would read it in the

46:46

wrong order. But when I'm reading something to myself, I think I must just like go over it and I like

46:56

make up the story in my head. You're reading a lot or you read a lot. All the time. Are you listening to

47:02

audiobooks or are you literally reading? I listen to audiobooks. I mean I do read. I tried really,

47:09

really hard to read big books for a long time and I did. I read Crime and Punishment. I read Madame

47:15

Bovary, like the whole book, you know? But I don't know how much of it I made up in my head and I don't

47:22

know how much of it is actually the book. That's interesting. Because I didn't realize that's

47:29

what I was doing until my boss at the radio station was like you need help. How do they not figure this

47:37

out at school where it's like here's a test, read this and then blah, blah, blah. Well, my undergrad

47:42

was very, like in Greece it was like this Oxford style thing where they would give me stuff to read

47:49

and I would read it. But I think I did make a lot of it up but it was theory and in some ways in the

47:57

conversations I was having I got what they were talking about. You know and I would go over things

48:01

that I thought that is something, you know? Because like something would jump out at me or

48:06

something. I'd be like, I need to remember this. So I'd go over and over and over and over again and I'd

48:10

memorize it and go over it and then I would like sink in and so I would memorize a lot of stuff. There was a

48:16

year in my life when it was like I so badly wanted to learn things. I mean so bad. I was listening to a lot

48:26

of stuff like whatever book on tape I could get. I would record all the lectures that I would go to and

48:32

I would read. I would try to read. I mean, this is the thing. Looking back I'm like, I really don't know

48:38

how much I made up and how much was there. Like I have no idea. What do you mean by making up though? I

48:45

don't even know how this will make sense but for example, I had to do a critique or review of a Walt

48:53

Whitman poem and I did a spider poem. It was like to a spider or something like that. Very short poem.

49:01

This is actually something that's really interested me about human psychology. I grew up

49:08

very religious, right? I mean very religious, like Bible all the time religious. And so I have

49:14

every Bible story in my head and I could connect what Walt Whitman was doing in that poem to

49:21

different Bible verses that I had read and different theory that I had heard my dad talk

49:26

about. And I was like, this is what he's saying here. And I wrote this like 17 page elaborate

49:32

review of this little poem. Was it using what you'd learned from the Bible or were you actually

49:40

quoting the Bible? I was quoting the Bible but I had the Bible that I could like look up the word and like

49:45

one of these Bibles. These papers are like, I'm a fucking zealot or something. That wasn't like a

49:52

religious school. Oh no, that was like college. So were they like, what's with all this religion? No,

49:57

they were like, this is, yeah. There's a lot of religion in Whitman. There's a lot of religion in

50:03

Emerson and Thoreau. But the reason I say it's really interesting with behavioral psychology

50:08

is because what we've done to you guys on your heads on this is that when you listen, when you hear

50:13

something, like say a metaphor or a parable, you don't have to go through the mechanics of

50:21

interpreting a symbol in order to get that. And so your mind puts together a much more open,

50:29

connective relationship between the ideas and what's being said. So you can understand

50:37

metaphors a lot easier if you hear them as opposed to if you read them. And you can understand

50:42

parables a lot easier if you hear them as opposed to if you read them. So I think that, I don't know

50:47

what's going on in my head honestly, ever. But I know I have an easier time connecting things

50:55

metaphorically and as an allegory for existence or as a parable than a lot of other people. Like it's

51:06

very easy for me to do this kind of stuff. Would you consider that a benefit? I think it's a benefit.

51:11

Okay, we've covered that question. I think it's a benefit, but I don't know if it's a benefit. I mean,

51:14

I really would like to be able to read and not be so pained about it. But then again, now technology

51:21

has caught up so much that I can get screen readers and they read everything. You know, I am

51:26

disconnected still from some of the books I really, really want to know. But I think what I can

51:32

do is like go to the library and have them, especially if I get in to do a PhD, I can go to the

51:36

library and I can have them give me like a readout of the book or at least the book at a PDF, the books that

51:42

I want because there are a couple books that I really, really want to read. And I think I can get

51:46

those in a PDF. Have you done much research on dyslexia? No. Do you think it's out there and you

51:53

just haven't delved into it or is it an unknown topic? Yeah, it kind of doesn't interest me. It

52:00

would seem like a two guys on your head episode. Well, we've done some on different processing

52:04

disorders and dyslexia, but the mechanics of it don't interest me as much as the feeling. Now that I

52:11

understand it's not just me. It is actually a process. Like it's a little bit easier to come to

52:17

terms with. And if my mom would not have helped me to like apply for schools and stuff, I wouldn't have

52:22

gone to college. She helped me fill out all the applications. What did she think about it? Like,

52:27

did you tell her when you were in your 30s? I did, yeah. She cried because my brother was diagnosed,

52:36

but they never tested me for it. And she was like, we just, she was like, we knew something was wrong,

52:42

but you know, we should have paid more attention and we didn't. Did your brothers dyslexia

52:49

manifest differently than yours? No, I don't think so. I think that honestly, this is one of the

52:55

sexist things about life was that my, not my parents, I think my mom cared, but she didn't have

53:04

enough time to care. She had four children and all that. But like, my parents didn't care what I did

53:12

with my life. My brother was, it was very important for him to be able to make a living for himself. And

53:19

they were very invested in him making a living for himself. For me, it was more like, she'll get

53:28

married, she'll do whatever she's going to do. She'll be taken care of or something. Like they

53:33

never asked me what I wanted to do with my life for. What about your older sister? Yeah. My dad was

53:40

really invested in my older sister and she got really good grades and she was super smart and, you

53:45

know, there's no worry about her. She, yeah, but she doesn't have any disorders like my brother and

53:53

I. Another interesting thing though is that my brother and I have really terrible vision. Like

53:59

very bad astigmatism, very bad vision. I wonder if that has anything. I don't know. I wonder if that

54:05

has something to do with dyslexia. But we're the only two. My older sister and my younger sister

54:09

don't. Huh. Which is weird. Well, there might be a connection. I know. I had a shitty vision. I was a

54:15

shitty reader. Really? Are you dyslexic too? No. And I think I was just dissociative. I had like a lot

54:20

of focusing problems. So I would just, I couldn't read a paragraph. Even sometimes now, if I'm

54:26

distracted, I'm like, just go back, go back, read that sentence again. I have to read it like six

54:29

times, even though I'm hearing every word until I can picture in my head what's happening. I know.

54:33

Wow. Maybe I should get tested. You should get tested because that's how I was. Wouldn't that be

54:36

weird? Oh man. That's how I am. Like when I read, I just cannot, none of it sinks in. I can read fine

54:43

though, in general. You can. You read books? Yeah, yeah. I can read from cover to cover and enjoy it.

54:48

So, and see if I listened to something, I could tell you every single thing about the I might be like

54:52

that too. Yeah. You should check it out. You should check it out. Is there treatment for it or is there

54:59

ways to train yourself? I don't know. I mean, I don't know. You know what I'm going to do though?

55:04

I'm going to start writing letters again because that time in my life, there was like that year

55:10

before the internet came out and I was writing a lot of letters. Some things were clicking for me

55:15

better. Why letters as opposed to anything else? Is there a story? I did keep a journal, you know, but

55:22

it was really the letters because then I would read the letters that came back to me. Oh yeah. I wanted

55:27

to understand. It was a conversation. Yeah. You know? So, I don't think anybody would write me back

55:33

now, but like my mom would. I don't know. If I got an old fashioned letter in the mail, I'd be like

55:37

pretty excited. So would I. I even told this guy that I'm kind of dating. I'm not dating. Are you

55:43

fucking kidding? I'm not dating. But like this guy that I'm flirting with, I was like telling him

55:48

like, write me a letter. He's like send me your address. I'll write you a letter. I was like, okay,

55:52

I haven't gotten a letter from him. Fucking like note to self. Unreliable. But like, I would love to

56:00

get letters, you know, or have a pen pal or something. I'm going to start just writing my

56:03

friend's letters. I have a lot of friends who live abroad. I mean, honestly, this guy who I'm kind of

56:08

flirting with, like we send each other voice memos. We haven't even talked on the phone yet. We

56:13

send each other voice memos and like it's pretty, it's pretty cool. It's pretty sexy. It's pretty

56:18

cool. It's like it's a very delayed gratification. Yeah. Like so many times texting

56:23

seems so like. Yeah. It's too abrupt. I got to reply. I know I got to reply. I got to do this thing. I

56:29

mean, this relationship, it's taught me a lot about myself and what I kind of want out of a

56:34

relationship. For example, I asked him, what books should I read if I want to get to know you

56:38

better? What are the books that have spoken to you the most over time? Which I actually really like

56:43

this question now to ask people. And he told me some books and I read all of them. And read as in listen to

56:51

them. As in listen to them in the matter of like three weeks, you know? And they're fantastic.

56:58

Yeah. They're fantastic. And I learned, I think a little bit about him, but more so, I learned that

57:02

like he's not doing that for me. He didn't ask me what kind of books I liked, you know, or like what

57:10

spoke to me and hasn't written me a letter. And so I feel as if I'm like, I know everything I need to know

57:16

about this already. Yeah, that's tough. But I am realizing that I like that type of knowledge. You

57:28

know what I mean? I like that type of correspondence where it's actually like, yes, if

57:36

you tell me this book meant a lot to me, I will read the whole book. That has always been how I have

57:45

cultivated my best friendships over time. And that is what I really like about having friends.

57:53

Yeah. You know, do you like being in radio and voiceover? Do you do are you critical of like some

58:00

of these audiobooks because of the narrator? Oh, yeah. Like, I mean, I like to read. Yeah. On the page

58:05

more than I like to listen. But if I wanted to share a story with somebody, I want to read it to them.

58:09

Yeah. You know, yeah. And I don't want anyone to read it to me. Yeah. See, I love being read to.

58:16

Actually, that's kind of how I fell in love a little bit. Like my ex and I got together because we got

58:22

pregnant on our second date. And then he wanted to start a family and I was like, what the fuck are you

58:26

serious? And he was like, yes. But was he planning or not? I'm not planning not at all. Not at all.

58:32

Like, like we were not going to be together and I did not want him to be in the picture. But then he kind of

58:38

wormed his way into my heart and he read me these books on tape, like taped them and read them to me.

58:44

And so I'm like, he was he used to be kind of romantic, you know, like. But anyway, so it's so

58:50

endearing. It's the best thing in the world to be read to, I think. I don't like to read to people, but

58:56

I mean, I read to my son, but we read the same book every night. Right. I read the same poem to my

59:00

daughter night after night after night after night. So I didn't really read the words on the

59:03

page. I just, you know, recited this poem. I mean, the highwayman, I used to read her the highwayman

59:08

because I just recited that, you know, Annabelle. How would you read something to somebody to one of

59:13

your children if you couldn't read? I just would read it over and over and over and over again, over

59:18

and over and over and over. To yourself? Yeah. I would read it. I would memorize it and read it, you

59:23

know, and just have the words there just in case I needed them. I mean, that's what I did when I was on

59:26

the air. I would I would write out every single thing I was going to say early in the early days and

59:34

read it over and over and over to myself. I got super nervous when people would just hand me copy, you

59:38

know, when they'd hand me like a news brief or something like that that I had to read on the air

59:42

super fast. I would get so nervous. So I would always go in early. I would read every PSA, every

59:48

weather report, everything and memorize it. And then I could say it on the air. But these poems, I

59:55

mean, I anything I read to my kids, I've read hundreds of times, you know. What about if you

1:00:01

like, you know, you're struggling to read a book on the page. Do you ever take notes or underline or

1:00:07

highlight stuff? All the time. And then you still, I'm assuming, have to look at that highlight and

1:00:12

make sense of it. Yeah. I mean, and it's weird too, because sometimes I can get it, you know. And then

1:00:19

sometimes I can't get it. I just can't get it. I don't know what it is. I don't know how dyslexia

1:00:25

works. I know, I wish I knew. I know. Now I'm going to have to do some research on the side. I really would

1:00:29

like to know more about how it works. Did anybody tell you? Like, I mean, like when you got

1:00:33

diagnosed, we're like, here's what you can do or here's why. No, they didn't say why. I'm

1:00:38

definitely not. But they said, like, you know, you can put these color sheets on top of the paper. It

1:00:42

can help you align the words and stuff like that. And I did that for a while, but it didn't really

1:00:46

work. And I just thought I have made so many non-conscious workarounds throughout my life.

1:00:57

That I think I just do that. I would love to read a book, but at this point in my life, I don't think I

1:01:05

could sit down for that long. I would love to write a book, which I may do, you know? You think you'd

1:01:12

recite it and then have somebody transcribe it? I can do that with my own technology. But I actually

1:01:17

do find that I can write things out longhand, especially, you know, and I'll go back and some of

1:01:22

it won't make any sense. But I guess that's it. The writing? Yeah, where they were like, yeah, this

1:01:30

makes no sense. Like, is it just the words are just all scrambled? Yeah, I mean, my letters. My mom

1:01:35

kept all my letters. And are they bananas or are they just? No, but bananas. Wow. I have to go

1:01:40

through before I send a text and like take it and put it in my notes and then listen to it before I send it.

1:01:45

Wow. Like, is that what you take so long to text? I do. Honestly, it is. I think my friends are like,

1:01:51

oh, God, you know, so I miss conversations because I have to do all that shit. But fuck it, whatever.

1:01:58

Honestly, technology. It's amazing. Yeah. I mean, these screen readers. I was just going to ask

1:02:04

you about that. Yeah. I have friends who are like, you know, nearly blind to use those. They're

1:02:07

amazing. They sound so weird though. Oh my God, they bug my children. They have a firefly. Yeah.

1:02:14

But you know, you can have Snoop Dogg read them with some of them. Snoop Dogg is one of my readers and

1:02:19

Gwyneth Paltrow is one of my readers. They can't read punctuation very well. So that's very good.

1:02:24

And the other problem with the screen reader is that it reads everything on the page. And so every

1:02:30

footnote, every blah, blah, blah. And I would get a lot of like, especially in work, I would get a lot of

1:02:37

advanced reader copies and I would always ask the publisher to just send me a PDF. And then I'd listen

1:02:43

to the PDF of the book and it is like with advanced reader copies, there's like all this shit that

1:02:48

they put on the page, like zero, zero, zero, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

1:02:51

blah, blah, blah. And it goes, so it goes through all of that, you know, like every page. So that

1:02:56

could be hard, but I still follow the story. You know, I still follow whatever it is. And I read a lot

1:03:02

of and listen to a lot of theory, you know, like a lot of stuff that is most people find very difficult to

1:03:11

understand. And I fucking love it. Like Gramsci and Walter Benjamin. I read a lot of Susan Sontag,

1:03:21

she's not hard to follow, but like, like a lot of philosophy, Derrida and I just, and I get it. I

1:03:28

don't know why. But it makes sense to me. What was the thing you said is easier to process audio when

1:03:35

you hear it? Yeah, it's easier to like, like see the metaphoric relationships in what you're

1:03:42

listening to. If there's a parable, it's like a lot easier to not take it as literal and see it more

1:03:49

symbolically. And I do that. I tend to do it with everything, probably to a fault. Like I see the

1:03:56

opioid crisis as a problem with our country's relationship to slavery and oppression and

1:04:04

exploitation around the globe still and our relationship to pain. If we had to come face to face

1:04:10

with the harm that we were causing the entire planet, we could not deal with it. So we have to numb

1:04:19

ourselves to it. And so I see the opioid crisis as a numbing with our relationship as a civilization

1:04:25

to our history and the rest of the world. That's an interesting perspective. I would think it's more

1:04:31

just a basic inability to be human. I mean, and let alone tying it to an institution or our history.

1:04:39

Yeah. No, Susan's ontag has this really interesting. I have gone back and tried to find

1:04:44

this. I can't find this conversation anywhere, but I will find it. I think it was a CBC conversation

1:04:49

she did. And I think the theater director that she worked with in Sarajevo when she was producing

1:04:55

Waiting for Godot and Sarajevo during the war, I'm almost positive he said it and she didn't say it. He

1:05:01

said, you know, the misconception is that during war, the most important thing is to try to remain

1:05:06

alive. And he said, in actuality, the most important thing during war is to try to remain

1:05:12

human in each moment. Oh my God, that's so good. I think of that a lot in our rhetoric about war and

1:05:21

what we're at war with and different wars and the war on drugs and the war on this and the war on that.

1:05:26

And like, I think about what it means to remain human in each moment. I think that's our biggest

1:05:34

crisis, honestly. Yeah, I do too. I do too. I think that there's so much shit that we do every day that

1:05:43

does not require us to be human beings. I'm worried that I'm not going to be able to connect with

1:05:50

myself. My kids aren't going to be able to connect with themselves and to the rest of humanity and to

1:05:55

nature and to the earth and to have experiences that bring them joy. You know, there's like so many

1:06:01

people around so many drugs. I mean, and I don't have anything against drugs prescription or not

1:06:08

prescription. I don't care. You know, it's not my thing. I and I am actually very grateful for drugs

1:06:15

for people who are depressed and stuff. They've helped my family, but I just, I think that if we

1:06:20

could just be more connected to ourselves and to our bodies and to our minds and to the world and to

1:06:26

each other, I think that we wouldn't need so many things that numb us from our own, from ourselves. I

1:06:36

mean, I've been through so much, so much pain and heartache in my life. But I learned things about

1:06:47

myself from it, you know, and I got to the other side of it to grief, you know, if when you get to the other

1:06:53

side, there's kind of this like, shit, there's another side. Okay, I can do it. My dog died when my

1:07:03

daughter was at summer camp. Little dog Tarzan, so awful. And we had to put him down and I just for two

1:07:11

days, just like, cried and cried and cried. And I like made myself just sit with myself and cry about

1:07:17

this dog because I knew that when Chloe got back, I had to just be with her in her grief, you know. And so

1:07:25

I got to a point where I wasn't, I could breathe, you know, it wasn't like this, that kind of

1:07:31

suffocating grief. And then when she got home, she like cried and I just held her and we just cried

1:07:38

together. And then like on day three of her grief and her pain, she said, I miss him still, but I don't

1:07:46

feel as bad. But I think a lot of times it is painful. Things are painful, you know, and I don't, I say

1:07:55

this all now, but if I ever lost a child, I don't know. I don't think I could take it. I don't think I

1:08:01

could take it. I can't imagine there's another side to that. But maybe there is. Have you ever

1:08:10

experienced that grief like that? Yeah. I think I've suppressed more grief than I've

1:08:15

experienced. Grief is fucking hard and painful and so awful. Yeah. Sometimes I feel like my whole

1:08:20

life is just like repressed. Some moment of repressed grief that I haven't unleashed yet.

1:08:28

But, but I also feel resilient in some way. I tend to feel things. I like, for better or for worse, like

1:08:37

feel everything and have to go through it. I think that's why I asked you about living with pain.

1:08:44

Yeah. I'd live with it. I mean, my body is in pain all the time. It is. But you asked me about running with

1:08:51

pain. No, I asked you about, well, what I thought I was trying to ask if you were. Oh, living. Your

1:08:55

body's in pain all the time. Yeah. It is. I think, well, my body is in pain all the time because after

1:09:00

when I had my ski accident, I broke 11 bones in my torso and severed my hamstring. And there's a lot

1:09:08

of pain that goes along with that. So I have massages every couple of weeks to kind of help with

1:09:13

the pain. But I think, you know, for me, it's like there's a lot of pain. Like I feel like there's a lot

1:09:20

of pain, even though I've gone through it and gotten to another side of it for sure, for sure,

1:09:24

because it's not the debilitating doubled over crying grief, you know. But like, you know, my dad

1:09:32

just kind of leaving us, like not wanting to interact with me. I think it's abandonment. I

1:09:43

think that's still kind of painful. That's hard. And I don't want my kids to ever feel that way.

1:09:52

That's why I'm so hard. I'm not hard on both of their dads, but I'm hard on one of their dads. Because I'm

1:09:58

afraid that he's going to abandon my son, like my dad abandoned me and I would cut his fucking neck if

1:10:06

he did that to him. Is there some threat of that? Or you're just. Yeah, he's just, you know, he loves

1:10:13

him very much. But I don't know if he is capable of love. I think he would justify something somehow

1:10:21

and abandon him because he was abused when he was a child. He went through a lot of shit and trauma and

1:10:28

blah, blah, blah. And I think that for me, I feel like it's possible that he would do that. And it

1:10:35

fucking scares the shit out of me. It scares the shit out of me. How do you feel like he would abandon

1:10:42

him? Is it just a matter of custody or do you expect him to be raising him? No, like if he turned his back

1:10:48

on him, you know, or if he ducked out emotionally, not really physically, but like emotionally,

1:10:56

like left him or abandoned him. I think that parents are supposed to have a role in their kid's

1:11:03

life. Like they're supposed to be there for their kids no matter what, you know? And I think that you

1:11:07

have children and even if your kids like are horrible people and go off and do crazy shit, like

1:11:15

you're their parents. Like you always have to love them, you know, because you brought them into the

1:11:20

world and that's your role. I feel like I don't trust that he has that in him. Maybe it's because he

1:11:27

just left me, you know? And I was totally blindsided by that. That could be. When he left

1:11:36

you, did he say like, but I want to see my kid every so often? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he does. And he does

1:11:43

see him. Right. And he sees him a lot, you know, and he's a great dad. But I am very fearful of them. I

1:11:52

hope it never happens. Yeah. It would suck. But like, I think that it's the worst, you know, being

1:11:59

abandoned by your family, by your parents. And I think that that hurts me that I was abandoned by my

1:12:08

dad. I know it does. Yeah. Even though I wouldn't want to be around him. I don't like to be around him

1:12:15

because he's a total narcissist in my life. I'm very manipulative. I want him to want to be around

1:12:20

me, you know? But I'm cool. That's the narcissist in you. Right? I'm a fucking narcissist. Um,

1:12:28

when's the last time you saw him? Chloe, my daughter wanted to meet him. I think she was five.

1:12:36

So that was 11 years ago. Yeah. I just saw him very briefly. Would you want to have some full

1:12:43

reconciliation with him or just see more often? No. It's funny because I thought I did really want

1:12:50

that. And, um, I was talking to John Ailey, who was a DJ, KUT, and he'd passed, but we talked a lot about

1:12:57

our parents because his dad was a real piece of shit. And, um, and I said to John one day, I was like,

1:13:05

I think I should make amends with my dad, you know, because like, what if he dies and like, I haven't

1:13:13

seen him and I don't even know, you know? And John's like, don't do it. He's like, don't do it. He goes, I

1:13:19

went and my dad was dying and I went and was going to try to make amends with him and he was just as much of

1:13:25

a jerk as he's always been. And I wish I never, I wish I didn't see him. And I was like, okay. And he goes,

1:13:32

you don't owe him anything. You know, John was, um, he's passed now, but he was so real about emotional

1:13:40

stuff like that. He would just like shoot so straight about anything, you know? And I think

1:13:48

that was really helpful to me. Yeah. We were really close. I miss him. And he was bisexual and had like

1:13:57

no qualms about it, but he, we talked a lot about it. We talked a lot about his growing up and when he had

1:14:04

to be closeted and how he had to be closeted. And, you know, he helped me to understand a lot of what my

1:14:10

dad was going through when he was a kid or what I perceive he went through when he was a kid. Yeah.

1:14:18

And the first time I remember when we were moving here and I got a job at KUT before we, we even moved

1:14:24

here. I just sent a CD to Jay Trachtenberg and Jay was like, yeah, hire her. So I was hired before I

1:14:30

even moved here. And I remember hearing John on the air and thinking, what the fuck is this station?

1:14:39

Like this place is so insane. Like how is he even on the air? Yeah. And very quickly I was, we were

1:14:48

besties. I was on the show a few times and he never pronounced my name right. Yeah, he never. There's

1:14:54

always something weird. Jesus. He's like Rebecca McEnroe. Yeah. McEntire. Supercreeps, my Bowie

1:15:01

tribute did a collaboration with Andrea Ariel, dance theater and we were on the show to promote it

1:15:07

and he started, he played changes by Bowie or something like our space. He's like, that's from

1:15:13

the new album from David Bowie. And it's like, actually, dude, that's a 40 years old. I love it. I

1:15:20

love it. Did you speak for his, the documentary coming out about him? No, I don't know if I will

1:15:27

watch it. Like I have my own memories, sometimes hard for me to read memoirs of people and memoirs of

1:15:34

things. Like my ex has a memoir coming out and it's all of just when Jack was born. When I was pregnant,

1:15:42

just when Jack was born and he was living in New Jersey and he'd come back and forth and it was all

1:15:48

about his own brooding and these letters to his son and everything. And I'm just like, Jesus fucking

1:15:54

Christ, I'm going to have to read. Like this is going to be out in the world. I don't exist in it even

1:15:58

though I'm carrying the child. And like what I was going through during that time was so extremely

1:16:05

hard because I had my daughter who was depressed and we didn't know and she was so angry. You know,

1:16:13

like he's writing about, oh, it's so hard for me to be away from my son. In the meantime, I have like

1:16:18

double mastitis and breastfeeding my son. I'm trying to go pick up my daughter. You know, I have a

1:16:24

job. I moved us five times by myself and like he was doing his writing, you know? And now the writing is

1:16:35

what exists in the world. And I am on the other side of it and I had to hold it the whole time and make it

1:16:40

happen. And it's that kind of shit for me is fucking painful. And I feel like, of course, John's isn't

1:16:48

going to be anything like that, you know, like that experience, but I feel like being on the other side

1:16:53

of things, always in the shadows and then having to relive them through the spotlight is not a

1:16:59

pleasant feeling. Yeah. And I don't like it. It's hard, though. It's like supporting artists,

1:17:07

supporting writers and supporting people, especially when you're an artist yourself. Like I

1:17:11

don't know if I'd consider myself an artist, but I think I am. Like the like the work that I like to do,

1:17:16

the way that I do my work, live like an artist a bit, you know, but I feel like I've never had support in

1:17:23

that area. So I've always been the supportive one, like supporting in my relationships and stuff

1:17:28

like that, like the artistic visions of the man have always been the important things. And that's

1:17:37

been a satisfying role for me to be in. Like I want to support someone. I want to support my partner, you

1:17:44

know? But then I read this book, Wifed'em, about the wife of George Orwell. I wrote a radio play

1:17:51

about it. Oh, yeah. She supported George Orwell and then she had all these tumors and stuff like

1:17:56

that. And I like, I had a tumor in May. It was a ovarian tumor and had to have surgery for it. And I

1:18:01

was just like, and then I read all this stuff about the emotional cause of these. And it's like,

1:18:05

you're supporting someone and you're not, you're not being seen. And, you know, your not, your

1:18:11

vision is not being supported or whatever the fuck. But it was just like very much associated

1:18:16

with being in this supported and unseen neglected role. I was like, I'm killing myself, you know,

1:18:25

doing this. And so then I thought, I really have to tell my own story. Maybe that'll happen. Maybe it

1:18:31

won't. But in the meantime, you told, you told quite a few stories. I told a few stories here.

1:18:38

Nobody listens to radio. Well, they do. It's a podcast, not radio. I know. People will listen to

1:18:43

this one. I wonder because you're a star. You know, I conflate the two a lot. I conflate audio and radio

1:18:49

a lot because I worked in radio for so long and podcasts to me are just radio, another format for

1:18:56

audio, you know, but I always wanted to leave behind something for my kids, you know, like I

1:19:06

wanted to be a writer and I fancied myself a writer. My whole life, I think my mom thought I would be a

1:19:13

writer too. Like she thinks I'm a writer. She thinks like you're a writer, you know? And I was

1:19:17

like, yeah, but I don't have a book, you know, but I have this whole archive that I was like, I have to

1:19:22

leave something behind for my kids. And I'm like, people don't listen to audio. Like I listen to

1:19:28

audio and my kids for sure won't listen to audio. Like they hate it. They've had to listen to it when

1:19:32

I'm editing at home and stuff. They hate listening to audio. They hate listening to me on the radio.

1:19:39

They just hate it. So I'm like, they're not going to listen. Like I did so many shows. I did a series of

1:19:44

shows of views and bruise on what it is to be a woman. Like how do we know what a woman is through

1:19:49

capitalism, through war, through literature, through history, through witchcraft, through

1:19:55

theory. Like there were so many ways to understand, like come to terms with this idea of

1:20:01

what a woman is, like the creation of woman. And you know, in air quotes, Raj Patel has a great book

1:20:08

called The History of the World in Seven Cheap Things. And he has a whole section on how the idea of

1:20:16

a woman was created during, depends when you think of as the beginning of capitalism, but like, there

1:20:23

was this conceptualization of what it meant to be a woman was that certain things are innate to a

1:20:31

woman. Like women have babies, women cook, they clean, they take care of the domestic realm and

1:20:39

that labor. Is outside of the economy because it's what women do and that's innately what women do. So

1:20:50

there was this conceptualization of what it meant to be a woman in relationship to the economy, the

1:20:56

new economies of labor. And like that kind of shit fascinates the fuck out of me. Like how do we

1:21:01

understand what a woman, you know? And so I did this whole series on like what a woman is because I

1:21:06

wanted Chloe to have someone she'll never fucking listen to. But it's that kind of stuff that you're

1:21:11

just like, oh my God. I mean, do you think about that? You're creating this archive with your

1:21:15

podcast. Just what will remain? I don't really. It's interesting. I don't know why I don't think

1:21:23

about that. Mostly because I get something about, is anyone listening to it now? I don't care what

1:21:28

happens 100 years from now. It's like, yeah. But I listen to a lot of old, old, old tape recordings,

1:21:34

radio shows, interviews, speeches, you know? Like anything I can get my hands on. So for example,

1:21:42

I just read the Alexandria Quartet, right? We talked about that. So I wanted to find out

1:21:47

everything I could find out about Lauren sterile, the author. And I listened to, you know, a speech

1:21:53

that he gave at UCLA in like 1980, I think. I don't know, maybe 1970. And I can't adequately describe

1:22:04

how happy that makes me. Like that's why I'm in radio and in media is because having that archive,

1:22:11

I feel like that's meaningful and will be meaningful to someone, not my kids, I'm sure, but

1:22:18

like someone down the road. And I wish more of that archive existed because I can't read. Because

1:22:30

that's where I get all my, all my stuff, you know? Yeah. That's where I've learned everything is

1:22:35

from fucking library tapes, you know? And like the reading, like T.S. Elliot reading the wasteland.

1:22:42

There aren't very many recordings, but like the recordings of him, you know, Henry Miller, like

1:22:47

listening to the accents of people, you know, and their ideas. And they just fucking talk about

1:22:52

shit. Like I love that. You just, I just feel like, right? I hope I can do my career. I feel like with my

1:23:03

career, I'm kind of like gaming the system to do what I do. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know

1:23:09

how the fuck they let me do what I do, but I get to do it. How about that? I just think it's like a, I'm

1:23:19

like, I don't know how they let me do this. And I terrified that I'm going to go broke and not be able

1:23:25

to afford my editing software. Like that's like one of my biggest fears. I'm not going to have

1:23:30

enough money to do what I want to do. I'm like, oh, I wish you could just own the means of production,

1:23:36

like have a real to real player and that was it. You know, you'd want a real to real player now. Yeah,

1:23:41

like edit on that because you don't have to have a subscription. Yeah, but that's a little old

1:23:46

school. I need a horse and buggy so I don't need car insurance. You know, I kind of want that too. I kind

1:23:57

of want to not have to have a car. You know what I mean? Well, you run, so you're good. I do, right?

1:24:02

Yeah, I run where I run. It's weird. It's very weird having to have a car. I feel like there's like a

1:24:08

romance about the open road and the thing, you know, but our life is not that romantic anymore.

1:24:14

Like it was with On The Road. Right. You know. Oh my God. Right? Did you love that book? I liked it a lot.

1:24:23

Yeah. At the time, I think I was, I was very into the romance of all, all those writers and all that

1:24:27

stuff when I read it in like 20s or something. I know. Yeah, me too. See, I feel as if this is one of

1:24:32

these experiences. Like I, I think I made up a lot of what I read in that book, you know, because I really

1:24:37

did love that book. Like, can you give me an example when you keep, you know, you said you make stuff up

1:24:44

when you read a book? I can't. Like, you know, if a sentence doesn't make any sense to me, I just make

1:24:52

it make sense in my head. But would it be a whole thing like, oh, he wrote a horse to Atlanta. I was

1:24:56

like, what? He never even went to Atlanta. Sometimes. Okay. You should be writing novels.

1:25:02

Sometimes it's like that. It's like, I think I connect the dots and stuff, but I don't really know

1:25:07

what's going on. Like I read, I remember reading Flannery O'Connor, something, I was in a book

1:25:13

club. I made up the whole fucking thing I realized after I, I thought I read it. Wow. And then I was in

1:25:20

the book club and we were talking about it and I was just like, what are you guys even talking about?

1:25:25

Like, I do think it's all, we're all bringing ourselves to whatever we're doing, whether it's

1:25:32

our imagination or our interpretation in a way we're always bringing or our experiences. We're

1:25:38

always bringing ourselves to another. But this idea of like actually making shit up, I think

1:25:42

that's part of dyslexia. I feel like that's like 90% of how we move through the world. Like we don't

1:25:49

really get it. I think that we need stories to make sense of things. Like I couldn't really make sense

1:26:00

of a lot of the theory that I was reading until I listened to a conversation about a theorist or a,

1:26:07

like I love this program in our time, VBC program. And it's like, they sit around and talk about

1:26:13

theorists or ideas or whatever and put them into context and like tell the story of the life. And

1:26:19

then when I read the theory, it makes a lot more sense. Cause I'm like, oh, I get. Story, yeah. And

1:26:23

analogy and story gets back to that. But that's how you learn. There is a learning device. Do you, can

1:26:30

you retain things when you listen to them? Like if you were to listen to like a big, like I've never

1:26:35

experienced it the way you've experienced it. So I'm curious. Yeah. I never thought of that. You

1:26:39

know, I never thought, oh, when I listen to a book, it makes so much more sense or I retain it more.

1:26:43

Yeah. I don't know. But you're a musician. Yeah. So you deal with a lot of sound connectivity. I do. And

1:26:52

I think I think like a musician, but in a weird, still trying to figure it out. Like I feel like I

1:26:57

write like a musician. I plan like a musician. I don't know. There's it's, it's a certain way the

1:27:04

brain processes stuff. And there's, there's story I would imagine in music. Yeah. I mean, I

1:27:12

think that's why I love jazz so much. And I love classical and I love specific recordings. You

1:27:19

know, there's some recordings of Mingus from like the passions of the man album that he did, like of

1:27:25

Pethanthropus erectus or whatever that thing is. I've ecclesiastically like, oh my God, it's like a

1:27:34

different world. My ex-boyfriend, he would wake up at the middle of the night and rage, accusing me

1:27:44

of having an affair with Mingus. That's hilarious. Because I love Mingus so much. Oh man. I

1:27:52

know. Any last final thoughts, words? Things you haven't said? You know, we didn't talk about like

1:28:02

this is friends with deficits. And I feel like there's so many deficits, you know, but just

1:28:11

maintain, right? Keep going. Or I'm going to have you back then for part two. I guess. No. Another

1:28:17

three hours. Okay. I'll do it. You tell me now like, oh, you know what? I didn't tell you anything. I

1:28:22

don't know. I just feel like there's so many things like, oh, I could have talked about this or that or

1:28:26

the other. Like there's so many stories that you could tell. Yeah. You know, and so many people you

1:28:32

are that you contain. I actually, I appreciate that. Like in part of this podcast, you know, it

1:28:38

always feels like tuning on the one crazy thing and like, Yeah. But I don't want to be, I don't want it to

1:28:42

be about, oh, just interesting conversations because I feel like there's too many of those out

1:28:47

there. There's not too many of those. There's not enough good ones. Yeah. That is the one thing that

1:28:53

to know and fascinates me is the way that we create the mythologies that we create around who we are

1:28:59

and how we live and what it means. Well, it's endlessly created. Endlessly through

1:29:05

everything, through art, through carpets, through clothes, through computers, through

1:29:12

podcasts, microphones, cats, dogs, everything. Yeah. Right? I love that shit. Yeah. Well, thanks

1:29:22

for having me on. It's been a pleasure. It's been a pleasure. It's been a nice little chat. Oh my God, I

1:29:30

can't believe it. I was like, I was going to go run. My daughter's probably, where the fuck are you?

1:29:40

Well, all right. Once again, I'd like to thank my guest, Rebecca McEnroy. If you'd like to learn

1:29:46

more about her and what she's up to, check out rebecca mcenroy.com. And if you'd like to help

1:29:52

support Friends with Deficits and learn more about behind the scenes of the show, as well as your

1:29:58

host, Adam Sultan, this guy, you can check out patreon.com slash friends with deficits. You can

1:30:06

also visit our website, friendswithdeficitspodcast.com. You can look

1:30:12

me up, Adam Sultan, for you, the number four, the letter you on Instagram or TikTok and as well as

1:30:20

friends with deficits on Instagram and Facebook. So keep an eye out. Keep connected. Love to hear

1:30:26

from you, especially if you'd like to be a guest on the show. Thank you. Have some compelling