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[00:00:00] Rumneek Johal: Hi, welcome to From Here Forward, a UBC Podcast Network Podcast. I'm Rumneek. And she's Carol. [00:00:09] Carol Eugene Park: Hello, friendly alumni. Today's episode is a bit jarring 'cause it's prerecorded before Ramnik decided to leave us as a co-host. Um, one might say it's a little bittersweet of an episode. Um, it's sweet 'cause you know, we talked to really, uh, cool people, two UBC city planners on the future of both campuses, uh, we talked about the [00:00:30] sustainable and affordable visions for these student communities. But bitter because of Rumneek, but it's fine, it's fine. [00:00:39] Rumneek Johal: Bitter because of Rumneek, words that have been spoken before, but I'm sorry and I'm genuinely so sad to be leaving. Although you're the one who literally left British Columbia. [00:00:50] Carol Eugene Park: I'm still here. Um, kind of just not in the province. I'm still here is the point, you are not. But in all seriousness, I'm very excited for your new [00:01:00] path and can't wait to see what you do next. How is that for my HR voice? [00:01:05] Rumneek Johal: It felt pretty genuine and sincere. [00:01:08] Carol Eugene Park: Could be a career pivot, I think. Um, but those, you know, those are also two of my least favorite words, so I'm not gonna take that as compliment. [00:01:14] Anyway, a hard pivot. So like I mentioned, um, this episode is one about hope and community building. Uh, we sat down with Ben Johnson, the director of campus planning for UBC Okanagan in Kelowna, and Michael White, the associate Vice President for campus and community planning, and [00:01:30] essentially, the chief planner for the university, his words. So Rumneek, what did you take away from the interview? [00:01:36] Rumneek Johal: I honestly thought that a conversation about planning would be all serious and technical. But I learned that it's actually the opposite. And building communities, or in this case, schools and literal cities, is a lot more of a personal process. [00:01:51] Carol Eugene Park: As alumni, we hope you enjoy how both campuses of UBC will transform, maintain, and sustain itself during these trying scary times. Enjoy. [00:02:03] Ben Johnson: Okay. My name is Ben Johnson. I am the Director of Campus Planning for UBC Okanagan in Cologne, and I've been, uh, in that position since late 2020. [00:02:12] Michael White: And I'm, uh, Michael White. I'm the Associate Vice President for Campus and Community Planning. And, uh, essentially the chief planner for the university and have been here since, well, it's coming on a decade. [00:02:24] Carol Eugene Park: We've got UBC Outlook 2040, and then we've got UBC Vancouver Campus Vision 2050, similar vibes, different names. So I guess, why don't we start with the similarities and the differences between the two. [00:02:36] Michael White: These are the two primary campuses for UBC, and both are, there's, you will see a lot of similarities, uh, between the two plans, uh, for the campuses and then some distinct differences. I'll let Ben speak in more detail about, uh, the plans for UBC Okanagan, and I can speak to some of the elements of Campus Vision 2050. [00:02:58] What I think you'll see in common though, is a desire, uh, in both cases to create very strong plans to support the academic mission of the university, and at the same time to create sustainable, vibrant, um, and more affordable, uh, campuses. And so the details may be a little bit different, but as we go through each, I think you'll see that there's some common themes that we wanna make great places to live, work, uh, study and play, try to be more sustainable, address climate action, be [00:03:30] more affordable, support reconciliation. I think in both cases also you'll see some of the same challenges, uh, around, for example, moving people around. So, transportation and connectivity challenges with both campuses, and you'll see some common, uh, challenges like that as well. [00:03:45] Ben Johnson: Yeah, I mean, I would say kind of in both cases, they're kind of evolutionary steps rather than starting from scratch. In the case of the Okanagan, we do have an existing campus plan from 2015, which sets a really good foundation for the growth of the campus. What we're doing now is looking at some new ideas, new things that have happened in and around us that have challenged us to update the plan. [00:04:07] So, um, you know, we haven't really branded what it's going to be yet. We call it the campus plan update, but it does build on a lot of those kind of things that Michael talked about dealing with indigenizing the campus, uh, affordability for the campus community, weaving in, uh, some of our evolution around climate action plan, dealing with transportation [00:04:30] challenges. And thinking about the environment around us, I think both campuses are located in places that are changing and evolving rapidly. So, we're thinking about what the campus needs to do to kind of align with that moving forward. [00:04:43] Rumneek Johal: So how did you both get involved with planning for universities and taking on such, what seems like such a big task. [00:04:51] Michael White: Ben and I are both, uh, city planners and have both worked, um, in municipal planning contexts. And I think what you'll find with both campuses, especially in Vancouver, uh, where uh, UBC Vancouver, obviously a world-leading research university, but it's also a quasi municipality. [00:05:09] And so we have a nighttime population of about 30,000 and a daytime population of around 80,000. And so, the planning endeavor really is about city planning as much as it is to support the academic mission, it's also a city planning mission. And so, Ben and I are both educated and trained, uh, city planners, and we have teams; [00:05:30] planners and architects and engineers and landscape architects that work with us, uh, to effectively plan small cities. And Ben, I think you can add a few words about the Okanagan campus, but similar context, you're planning a small, uh, city part of the campus. [00:05:44] Ben Johnson: Yeah, it is. Uh, like Michael said, we've both worked in local government for a long time. I was with the city of Vancouver for 17 years, and I worked for the City of Penticton for a while in the Okanagan. And a lot of the same issues you're dealing with. Things like urban design and engineering and affordable housing, [00:06:00] sustainable architecture and sustainable public landscapes and so on. So, it's a really fun opportunity to think very holistically about all those different elements that kind of come together to build a livable and sustainable campus for everybody who uses it. [00:06:14] Carol Eugene Park: Both are university campuses; people go there to study for the most part. But there's other things involved, but you know, for someone who doesn't really understand the importance of urban planning, why, like why does this matter? Why is this needed? [00:06:26] Michael White: These are, uh, communities. These are communities in effectively small cities. And so, it's the same issues that people will be experiencing, uh, there's some unique traits, but a lot of the same issues that people are experiencing in any city in North America right now. So, for example, housing affordability, as we went through Campus Vision 2050. And that's the new, uh, plan for the Vancouver campus, updating a plan that we have that's about, uh, 12 years old and a new plan for the 30 year, uh, vision and plan for the campus. [00:06:56] A lot has changed in 12 years. And so, when we were engaging with the community, probably the biggest theme, biggest anxiety that we heard from the community was around housing affordability. And this isn't unique. Uh, this is happening across North America and, um, we need to be more aggressive in addressing, uh, housing affordability. And that's coming through campus vision, uh, 2050, and its associated housing action plan, ways to provide more units, different kinds of units, different tenure and different affordability programs for faculty, staff, and students on the campus. [00:07:30] And so it's unique in that we're a university. And so, when you look at our housing action plan, it's gonna be tailored for a university context. But these are the same issues that people are facing in most communities. Same with climate action, there's a high anxiety around climate change and what are we doing as a university and a small city to address climate action? [00:07:49] So we have a very aggressive climate action plan for the institution, and now we're developing, uh, an equally ambitious climate action plan for the residential neighborhoods on the Vancouver campus. Uh, Ben can speak to some of the work in the Okanagan at the Okanagan campus because it's a slightly different environment, but these are the kinds of things that we're addressing. [00:08:08] Reconciliation, we know that's a top priority of our community, it's a top priority nationally. And so, there's a lot of work we're doing with the respective host nations to more deeply engage on the planning of the campuses. And that's a really a high priority. And maybe the final one, uh, connectivity and transportation. What community in Canada right now isn't struggling with transportation [00:08:30] issues and connectivity? And so, in the Vancouver context, one of the highest priorities and something that we've heard loud and clear, through the engagement of campus vision has been the need to get a rapid transit link to the Vancouver campus. And so, we're actively working with the province and other partners, uh, to get an extension of skytrain, uh, to the Vancouver campus. Then that's in addition to the other layers of transportation investments for biking and walking across campus and more accessible campus. [00:08:56] These are the kinds of things, and so it shouldn't be, I don't think many of these things should be, uh, surprising given the different conversations that are happening across the country, but they are tailored to a university community context, and maybe that's the biggest difference. [00:09:11] Ben Johnson: And it's really interesting how transformative you can be with this kind of focus in these different areas. I graduated from UBC in 1999, and at that time there was really not a lot to do on campus. There are very few residential opportunities, and then since that time, you've seen surface parking lots transformed into very vibrant spaces. Uh, you've seen entire residential, complete residential communities pop up on campus to support the campus community. You've seen kind of reconciliation manifest in the landscape around campus. [00:09:42] So many things have happened, and UBC Okanagan is kind of going down the same path and thinking about how we as a campus can become a better place to live, work, learn, and play, as Michael said. Thinking about those diverse residential opportunities that might have a home on campus, seeing how we can get people, uh, getting to [00:10:00] campus in different ways other than driving, seeing how we can embody sustainable approaches into our landscape. And all these different things can happen to really transform the campus, and we're really excited to embed these in the campus plan update over the next year or so. [00:10:14] Michael White: You, you know, that's great. Ben's raising a really important point, which is there's those big themes that we've been mentioning that we're tackling, just like most communities are. The one that's underlying all of those themes that, uh, we think is equally important, is creating vibrant, interesting, and [00:10:30] fun places to be. I think when you look across North America and the types of communities, types of places that people are attracted to, whether it's a university context or not, it's a huge factor in people's satisfaction and happiness. And so, we're investing a lot of our time and have done this through Campus Vision. I think Ben's, you're doing this as well in the Okanagan through the campus plan update, to have conversations with the community about what's important to have vibrant, accessible, interesting, fun places and inclusive spaces on campus. [00:11:00] That's something, these are the themes we've been hearing from our conversations that are really important. And so, uh, and I mentioned inclusivity, how do we create more inclusive spaces, places and activities, uh, on our campuses to add and enhance that to that campus experience. And we actually have a team in Vancouver, our community development team that focuses on some of those very questions, as the other staff are working on the harder edge work around affordability, or [00:11:30] climate action, or transportation planning. There's a team partnering with different community groups, uh, and agencies, uh, and individuals to say, well, how do we make fun, vibrant, inclusive spaces on campus as part of our planning endeavor. And I think there's a lot of satisfaction we get from that dimension. Uh, 'cause you can just see, um, the appreciation and joy in a lot of the neighborhoods, uh, from investing that time and the resources into it. [00:11:56] Rumneek Johal: As you both mentioned, over the years UBC has changed a lot, and I'm sure with this plan and looking ahead, there will be lots of different changes as well, as you've kind of outlined. But what are some of the most significant ways that both campuses will be different, or look different, or feel different in 10 to 25 years? [00:12:17] Ben Johnson: Sure. Yeah, I think that can happen in a number of ways. I think one of the most important and meaningful ways you'll see UBCO change in the next little while is around the Indigenization piece. A much more prominent [00:12:30] recognition of whose land the university sits on, I think, will be expressed. We've had our first gifted name for an academic building. It's got a, the x̌əl sic snpax̌nwixʷtn is an Nsyilxcn name that's been gifted to our, um, interdisciplinary and collaboration building, uh, that's under construction right now. You'll see the landscape hopefully transform to be more Indigenous in nature. Obviously, very meaningful collaboration with our Indigenous partners about how that expression takes place. I think that's gonna be key. [00:13:01] I think you'll see evolution around the transportation approach on campus. And I will recognize that we're in a very good place in a lot of ways already with things like our district energy system. It provides very low GHG power for our campus. Uh, our green building approach is very, um, very well established and we are a relatively new campus compared to Vancouver. So, we do have a bit of an advantage in that respect for newer buildings and so on. [00:13:28] I guess housing is another area where you see transition. Kelowna is a very challenging place from an affordability point of view. I mean, we all know Vancouver is, Kelowna is as well, housing prices are high and rents are almost on par with Vancouver. So, we are challenged to create as many housing opportunities as possible on our land, so going to be exploring that through the campus plan. So we do already provide resident opportunities, our goal is every first year student can be provided with a residents bed. But we're starting to think about upper years as well, graduate students and faculty and staff, thinking about what housing they [00:14:00] need, and how we as a university could provide that in a sustainable way, and all the co-benefits that come with that. For example, reducing commuting by having more people to be on campus is something we'd like to explore. [00:14:10] Michael White: There's a lot of parallels to what Ben just described for the Vancouver campus. The one I might just add a little more detail around for here is our Indigenous engagement, primarily with the Musqueam uh, nation. [00:14:21] And you know, I started a decade ago, and coming into the planning role here, very light touch engagement with our host nation. And that is completely transformed in the last decade, and something I think we're both very proud of, UBC and Musqueam, is how we're changing the conversation about planning for the campus. And you're starting to see that materialize on the campus now. [00:14:45] So if you're on campus, and you're seeing the Musqueam Street names, the place names. If you're seeing a lot of the Musqueam iconography, a lot of the Indigenous landscape that you're now seeing on campus. We're working with Musqueam on actually redesigning [00:15:00] the gateways, uh, to the campus, the physical presence. So that when people arrive, they understand that they're on Musqueam territory, that there's a history to be told. And that's something that our Musqueam colleagues have been very clear about, is that they want to invite people to their territory and tell the story about Musqueam's history in this area. And that UBC is a newcomer to these lands, and that builds upon generations of Musqueam being present here. [00:15:26] And so it's probably the, one of the most, uh, my role now is being able to engage much more deeply with our hosts and having more structured engagement, uh, on the future plans and developments for the campus as well. So, I think that is quite a big shift, uh, from a decade ago. And if we're looking 30 years out to think that that's greatly amplified. [00:15:51] In addition to the things Ben was talking about, particularly I think affordability and climate action; on climate action the one thing that, and we've been, campus vision is just getting finalized here in Vancouver, the one thing that was really helpful was a conversation, uh, we had with Bill Rees, Professor Emeritus, uh, from Vancouver talking about, uh, how we're framing the plans for the campus in the world that we're living in. And he's been really, I think, helpful and clear minded on. Uh, the story you're telling, um, is one about making change for the better for the campus, and that's coming through loud and clear, but the context that's happening within may not be getting better. In fact, [00:16:30] it's looking fairly dire in a number of regards globally, and so we have to start thinking about what it means to be adaptive and resilient and responsive to a changing world. And that's physical, in terms of the environment, it's also to do with, uh, people and the movement of people, and the role this region's gonna need to play in the future for accommodating many more people. And what does that mean for the campus? [00:16:53] And so there's a bit of a lens that's a broader one that I thinks quite healthy. While planners, we typically we are [00:17:00] optimistic in working with communities to make, you know, better places, Bill was quite helpful saying, you're gonna, you're doing that in the context of a planet that's deteriorating in many ways. And so that it has to be part of the conversation, and how are you gonna be, uh, adaptive and resilient in within that? [00:17:16] Carol Eugene Park: How does UBC kind of stack up among its peers when it comes to campus community planning? Are there things that you've taken inspiration from, from other campuses or not at all? [00:17:27] Michael White: I think we're fairly proud the role that UBC plays [00:17:30] in, uh, campus and community planning. We are unique in Vancouver in that we are quasi municipality. And so, we have our residential neighborhoods and we have a property development arm at the university that is, uh, planning and developing those neighborhoods. And in doing that, it's providing much needed housing for the campus community. It also provides revenue for the university to direct to academic priorities. [00:17:56] And so that's fairly unique across the country and we actually have a lot of visitors that come to UBC Vancouver to understand how this model works because we are a university, we are a quasi municipality, and we're also a big land developer. And how does that all work, and how does it support the academic mission, and how does it support healthy communities? And so, we do have a lot of people that come here to learn about that. Climate action, proudly UBC has been a leader in climate action, continue to be and Vancouver, we're gonna be reaching about a 60% reduction of GHGs over our 2007 levels, uh, sometime this year because of the very conservative efforts of the university to reduce GHGs, very proud of that. [00:18:35] But these are the types of things, it's like a friendly, I guess you could say, competition with universities across the country, pushing the questions of affordability, pushing the questions of climate action, pushing the questions of reconciliation. And there's a lot of good things happening across the universities and communities, frankly, across the country. And so, it's a constant, I think, learning back and forth from what others are doing. And I think there's great [00:19:00] demonstration projects at other universities. We like to herald our campuses, a living lab in UBC as well. Uh, and they're all different, different types of, uh, research projects that are happening on different campuses. [00:19:10] And so we're, you know, out in not just Canada, but other universities across the US and the world to learn what others are doing that are interesting in some of these key areas. And so, yeah, it, I think it's a pretty healthy learning environment, dialogue between the various institutions and also a friendly, uh, friendly, uh, competition. [00:19:29] Ben Johnson: [00:19:30] UBC Okanagan obviously is smaller than the Vancouver campus, we have about 12,000 students in it, Vancouver probably has somewhat over 40,000. And we're newer, we were just simply established in the mid 2000s. [00:19:41] So, you know, one advantage, a significant advantage we get through our relationship with Vancouver is that we can also, we can draw on their experience, uh, the learnings that they've had, or time, to get to where they are today and their kind of resources, they have a very large and diverse, uh, staff team in planning and engineering that support the work we do. And they do, 'cause we're a pretty small planning team, and sustainability team in the Okanagan. So, it's really, there's a lot of co-benefits to working with them. [00:20:10] We do exist in a different context. We are within the city of Kelowna, and we have to kind of respond to their regulations around zoning and sustainability. But that said, we are somewhat self-contained as a university, and we also are, demonstrated enough leadership in the work we do around architecture, utilities, and servicing, and the [00:20:30] public realm that they often defer to us uh, when it comes to the standards that we wish to meet. We're building product that's at a higher standard than what you would get typically in Kelowna. So they, they in some respects leave us well enough alone in the work that we do, while providing kind of the necessary regulatory oversight. [00:20:46] So it's an interesting opportunity. We don't, or we're not self-regulating to the same degree that Vancouver is, but nonetheless, we do have a little bit of autonomy within the Kelowna context, simply because of who we are and what we're capable of doing. [00:20:58] Rumneek Johal: So, you both mentioned that you have various planning, um, experience. So, what is the biggest lesson that you've learned on your experience for a successful planning process, and how did that kind of impact the planning, uh, moving forward? [00:21:12] Michael White: Both Ben and I have worked in different contexts. I worked the city of Vancouver and then I worked overseas in the Middle East for a number of years, and then was a consultant, and then came to UBC. And you know what I found universal in creating plans is that people's needs are not that different. And that was a bit of a, uh, it shouldn't have been a surprise, but probably was. [00:21:34] So when I was in the Emirate of Abu Dhabi conducting community engagement for one of the first times in their history, really curious of what people would be saying about what their needs and interests are for their community, it was a lot of the same things that our community is saying that they need here. So, it was about safe streets, it was about, uh, access to amenities and services, it was about access to housing, it was about having basically vibrant communities to live and shop and [00:22:00] work in. And so, it shouldn't have been surprising, I suppose, but these, there's some universal needs that come through these conversations. And then what it really emphasized for me is the need to do deep and thorough community engagement when you're creating a plan for a community, because these are the people that are living and working and participating in their communities. And so, you need, to get it right, you need to engage with the constituents. [00:22:24] And so we spend a lot of time on both campuses engaging with our communities, creating plans, and these aren't easy processes. Um, they're frankly, actually incredibly difficult, because they're involving change, uh, often growth-related change, and there's, um, uh, trade-offs and choices that need to be made. And it's difficult for anybody experiencing, uh, change in a neighborhood, and so these are, they're difficult conversations. What's important though, is there is a lot of common interest for needs that are not present or things that people want, that do require [00:23:00] change. And so, affordability and climate action, two good examples, better, uh, connectivity, another example. Those all require change to address, and so there, there can be a fair bit of common ground in these conversations as well. But I guess all that to say that needs a lot of, uh, good intention and thought going into the engagement processes to make sure that we're understanding those needs and interests and that the choices and trade-offs are made clear. [00:23:25] Ben Johnson: Yeah, for me, in a process, I think it's really important to ask the hard questions and get people to kind of invest themselves in the decisions and the outcomes. And I kinda give you an example, when dealing with growth, for example, don't simply throw out like, we're gonna grow, what do you want that to look like? [00:23:44] I undertook an exercise, uh, as a city planner where we knew what, how the city was gonna grow over the next decade. So, we gave people a stack of chips representing a certain number of people and asked them to put them on the city where they would like them to grow. So, it got them to think about questions [00:24:00] around things like urban sprawl and densification and so on. They simply couldn't talk in the abstract, they had to get quite real and make some difficult decisions and have conversations among themselves. So, I think it's important to be realistic in the planning that you're doing. And like I said, ask the hard questions, but that invests people in the outcome of the plan, and they can get behind it 'cause they understand kind of the thought process behind it. [00:24:25] And the same thing can be done with resources, whatever it is, make sure there's some real ideas, figures, numbers, whatever it is, stakes on the table for people to debate and think about moving forward. [00:24:36] Carol Eugene Park: So, let's say that you know someone wants to kind of enter into this profession, but they're kind of scared about, you know, like not pleasing everybody and you know, they're a little worried about how this whole thing might work out for them. What kind of advice do you have for these early career city planners? Community planners? [00:24:55] Ben Johnson: You know, the one thing that I was never taught in planning school, and I learned very quickly, and I hope Planning school has changed since the 1990s, was around the political nature of decisions. You kind of go in, your kind of unleashed as a planner into the world and you think you have kind of a lot of leeway, a lot of ability to introduce your own values, and ability to kinda listen to the community and do what the community says. [00:25:20] But so many decisions that are made are political in nature or in the context of things, you know, structural things that need to be thought about when moving forward with a plan. So, just kind of understanding the nature of how decisions are made, and who makes decisions that affect communities, and planners and the work that we do is pretty important. It's fundamental. And also understanding the role of policy, like understanding that decisions have been made along the way for very good reasons in many cases. Understanding why those decisions were made and how they guide the work that we do and the outcomes. I think would be, is really important for somebody moving. [00:25:57] Michael White: The only, uh, I slightly, same response for me and with a slightly different lens is planning in the end is about people. So, a lot of us go to school and we understand the quantitative or technical solutions to problems and a lot of effort around the process to go through, to come up with outcomes. At the end of the day, you're engaging with people and Ben's talking about the decision-making environment and the community engagement environment and people have different needs and interests. And so, the thing that we probably [00:26:30] weren't ringed well enough with are the skills to understand and go through to facilitate conversations to understand needs and interests of people in these processes, in order to be successful. [00:26:43] Because we've seen, I'm sure, Ben, you'd agree, we've seen a lot of very, very smart planners, they've been focused on technical processes and technical solutions, which at the end of the day may have been good and may have been right. But it failed miserably because, they haven't been able to [00:27:00] engage with people, uh, in an effective way that understands the needs and interests that are driving the positions that come into conversations. And so, I think that's probably been the biggest, I think learning for me in my career. And something I tell, uh, new planning students is start your training and thinking around that kind of problem solving and facilitation early, 'cause it'll marry really well to all the technical smarts that you have and the skills that you're learning to help be successful in that kind of environment. [00:27:32] Ben Johnson: I totally agree. Relationship building, being able to communicate with people, communicate complex ideas clearly, it's fundamental to being a good planner. One other thing I would probably say, is you kind of need the ability to, or you need a thick skin to be a planner. The issues that we deal with are very real to a lot of people. Whether it's around affordable housing, or neighborhood change, or sustainability, people are emotionally really invested in these things for very good reasons. And we [00:28:00] feel that, as planners we're hearing people's responses to things, people can get worked up and excited or, you know, in a good way, or in a more negative way. And we need to be able to navigate that, uh, and kind of keep our head on our shoulders, and help facilitate ways forward through these complex emotions that people have. Like I say, for very good reasons in many cases, but these are people's lives that you're dealing with, so we have to be prepared for that in the work we do. [00:28:27] Rumneek Johal: Yeah, absolutely. I feel like planning can feel very abstract, but like the consequences of it are far from abstract, they're tangible. [00:28:35] Michael White: There's one little anecdote just maybe to end on one of our academic, uh, colleagues who we work with quite closely, we were going through Campus Vision 2050 and getting, uh, some of his advice through that process, engaging with him. We went on a walking tour of one of the neighborhoods, the older neighborhoods on campus, and he kind of smiled and said, 20 years ago, I was actually one of the people that was about to chain myself to some of the trees in this area because I was so [00:29:00] opposed to the development that was being proposed in this growing community. And then he said, now I look around and this is one of the greatest neighborhoods in Vancouver that's been developed, in Wesbrook Place and very proud of it. [00:29:16] And I think it goes to Ben's point that these are incredibly personal emotional investments that people have in community. And it really underscores the importance of the type of engagement, uh, you undertake, and that the outcomes do reflect their needs because I think in this case, Wesbrook Place is a strong reflection of what we heard from the community for what was needed in a new neighborhood. [00:29:42] Carol Eugene Park: You know me Rumneek, I've never been a huge fan of visiting the place where I studied, cried, and graduated; you know, it makes me feel old. But reading through the reports for UBCO and UBC in Vancouver, I am excited to see how the campuses will be transformed and adapted in this, uh, changing climate landscape. [00:30:00] And, you know, that's the fun part about being an alum, uh, gasping at all the changes, being dramatic about how this one building is no longer there, and how a building was renovated and looking different. You know, I can't wait to be like, oh my God, things have changed and telling everyone I passed by on campus about how I used to go here, uh, years ago. [00:30:16] Rumneek Johal: It's dramatic and a little over the top, but it definitely fits your brand. [00:30:20] Carol Eugene Park: Thank you. But, uh, let's not pretend like you wouldn't do that too. [00:30:24] Rumneek Johal: I can assure you I won't. [00:30:26] Carol Eugene Park: Okay, folks. Well, you heard it here first, Rumneek thinks she's better than me, but it's fine. [00:30:30] Rumneek Johal: That is not what I said, but if that's a takeaway from today's episode, then okay. [00:30:36] Thanks everyone for listening. Make sure you catch our next episode by subscribing or following our show on Spotify, apple, or wherever you get your podcast. And if you're feeling your feels, please drop us a review. You can find me on Twitter @Rumneeek with three E's [00:30:53] Carol Eugene Park: And me @CarolEugenepark. [00:30:55] Rumneek Johal: From Here Forward is an alumni UBC podcast produced by Podium Podcast Company.