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FHF Pilot | The Gig Economy: Friend or Foe? | Transcript Carol: Hey, welcome to our podcast, From Here Forward - part of the UBC Podcast Network. I'm Carol, and this is my co-host, Rumneek Rumneek: Hi. Carol: And we’re here to share UBC stories about people and places, truths, science, art, accomplishments, all that good stuff, because that's what this podcast is about. Sharing better to inspire better. Rumneek: We know that the world today is definitely full of uncertainty, conflict and polarization and all the other bad words in the dictionary. But this world is also full of good people and plenty of good news stories too. They just don't get the same love. Carol: Until now. This podcast is like our line in the sand, our answer to all the negative shtuff out there, our way of saying, let's try focusing on the good for a change From Here Forward. Get it? Because the world needs it badly. Rumneek: We're both journalists, news junkies and while good people, at least we like to think so. Rumneek: And for that reason, we feel well-suited to this podcast and to this cause. And as UBC alumni, we're also tight with our alma mater, which gives us access to an incredible, worldwide network of amazing people and stories. In fact, UBC has a ton of other great podcasts out there which we're going to want to shout out along the way. And notice I said “other great podcasts.” Carol: Yeah. And we're definitely going to invite some of these pod friends to come and hang in our pod squad. If you catch my drift. Rumneek: No, please stop. And don't ever say that again. Carol: Okay, that's rude. Rumneek: But really, we're just super excited about this podcast and what it stands for and for all of the great people and stories we get to learn about and share with all of you. We hope you'll listen and follow along with us. Okay, enough about us and introductions. Let's get this party rolling because there's a lot here to get into. Our theme today is The Future of work, which feels big, full of responsibility, and also a tad bit scary, especially as we come out of this pandemic with so many of us “displaced”. Which seems to be the nice way of saying that we're totally effed. Rumneek: How exciting. But although I do not dream of labor, we've learned as you will, that the future of work is also a topic that can be inspiring, exciting and surprising in a lot of different ways. I have to say, when I was doing research for this episode, it felt really refreshing to consider a future without baggage or bias. Like so much news today has. And I'm not saying I want to look at the world through rose colored glasses. I'm not. I just don't want them to be gray or whatever color of lens is the most depressing. Carol: T-t-t-t-truth. Rumneek: Thank you. Ultimately, the way I see it, the future is only scary if you're scared of change or of changing. Carol: Oof, facts. No printer. Okay, so while we'd love to talk more about all of the many great UBC articles and stories we've reviewed, there is one in particular that we wanted to spotlight. The Gig Is Up is a documentary by UBC film professor Shannon Walsh. And it is amazing. You should watch it.. Carol: It's super interesting, shocking, sometimes upsetting, and sometimes a very inspiring look at the gig economy and all of its workers. This film definitely has some dystopian vibes, but it's not bleak or like super negative. And Professor Walsh makes it clear that there's something surprisingly very human and highly creative about this gig economy and movement, and that it has the opportunity to be a revolutionary. Rumneek: So, let's get into it. Carol: Let's do it. So, we have a chance to sit down and fan out with MS. Walsh. Here's some of that conversation. Rumneek: Okay. So, thanks again for taking the time to chat with us today, Professor Walsh. We both really enjoyed watching the documentary and it definitely sparked a lot of questions for both of us. So, I guess we'll just start off by asking some questions. First off, what inspired you to make this film about gig work? Professor Walsh: My film previous to The Gig Is Up was called Illusions of Control. And in that film, I'd really been fascinated with our fixation on the ways that technology was going to save us, especially from the climate crisis or whatever we're facing right now. There was sort of this techno utopianism about like some tech bro somewhere is going to figure it out and we'll be fine. And I was really interested in how that played out in different parts of the world that were facing, catastrophes. And so, in that film, I really ended up spending a lot of time with people on the frontlines of crisis in relation to the environment that had for whatever reason, had some kind of technology fix that preceded it. And for this film, in some ways that really is borne out of the same fascination. But here we're thinking about labor, we're thinking about how work itself has also gotten the kind of techno optimistically obsessed. And we're starting to believe that technology is the future and AI is all magic and that our problems with work-life Balance with the nine to five can be solved by the top of the button, and what does that really mean? For people and for human lives that are impacted by it. Rumneek: And so, I think you really captured that complexity really well. Like you said, that 5] there is a lot of advancements. There are positive aspects to it and in it. But at the same time, it does have impacts on people's real lives. So, what did you want people to kind of gain from the documentary and kind of take away from it? Professor Walsh: Yeah, I guess for me as a documentary filmmaker and I tell my students to never try to make something that you're not yourself curious about that if you think you already know the answer maybe everybody else does too. And so, in this film, I was really curious, like, how does this work? How does AI work? And who are the people behind the technology? And I think as I uncovered more and more about what that meant, it really made me want to tell the story of the people for one and also, just to wake us up a bit. Because I think what I found anyways was that over 100 years of labor organizing has been eroded right under our noses. And we haven't even really clocked what's happening. And it's not just the people who are delivering your food or driving the Uber, but it's really like every job you can possibly imagine can be part of the platform economy and become task-based work. And what will that mean for our society? And so, I really hope that it gets people thinking about some of those bigger questions. Not only about, “Hey, maybe you shouldn't raise someone a one star because you're in a pissy mood because you might lose them their job.” But also, what does it mean if we don't protect workers anymore for our society, for ourselves, for our families, for our future? Carol: When I was watching the documentary, I was kind of struck by how like-- I use Uber Eats, I love all the delivery apps. And one thing that from the document I took was like, “Wow, a rating actually matters.” Like, I mean, from a consumer end up like, “The service is not very good. I'll just give you a three star”. And to watch actual gig workers explain how detrimental it can be for their own livelihood-- It made me not that I was already like that but it made me more sympathetic to the struggle of having to do these types of jobs. But I do want to kind of go back to what you were talking about in terms of like the AI and the people behind it. I didn't even know human computation was a thing. Like I truly and I'm sure many people you've spoken to probably or as you've probably learned, is that like the data, the cleaning of the data is like human work. And I was blown away by that. So, I guess where are there any things that you also had to kind of overcome or unlearn about what it means to work with AI and ghost work behind that? Professor Walsh: Yeah, great question. I mean, this whole area of what is at-- the story and Mary Gray called Ghost Work in their book, which really influenced me to look at it as Ghost Work. That's the people behind the machines, what's literally called and that field, the human in the loop, which just is such an interesting and sort of like dystopia way of talking about it. But I absolutely didn't understand how fundamental humans are. And in some ways it's inspiring because you're like, there are things about human intelligence and creativity that are on replicatable. No matter how much we fantasize about a day when that might happen, it's just not going to come and that's okay. Because of the evolving nature of human creativity and intelligence, language, culture all of those things are happening at a rapid pace all around us all the time. And so there's always going to be a human in the loop, right? But for sure, for me, I still feel when I'm like hitting something on my phone that I think is being controlled by an algorithm, I really question now, like, what is and what isn't? I met people who even order the Google results based on-- Yeah. Like that kind of—Literally everything you can imagine that you right now think is pure humanless technology probably has a human somewhere embedded into it. And I think, you know what, what Mary Gray and folks like that who are writing about this topic have said is, if this is the kind of labor that we're relying on, we really need to see it. We need to be able to make it visible. And I think there's been a lot of reasons why hiding the people has been meaningful and to minimizing what those jobs are. One of the computer scientists I talked to in Nigeria, he said, “It's not artificial intelligence. It's augmented intelligence. it's like it's about humans working together with machines.” It's not human versus machine. And I think that also is in a way, we can also imagine that this is less dystopic if we can think about ways to value that labor and bring people into that cycle and circle and really bring a social value side to it. It doesn't need to be pure evil basically. Carol: Yeah. The human plus technology as opposed to the human versus technology was a kind of interesting thing where I was like, “This is how the generations think about technology.” And for a lot of younger people, we were like, “No, technology can really be helpful.” And as it can be harmful in some ways, it's created a lot of accessibility for us, and its tools that we can use to better ourselves and the society around us. And yeah, I love that, the human plastic analogy aspect. Professor Walsh: I also think your generation understands implicitly also the problems with the rating system we talked about earlier. You also know through growing up with Instagram and like being also a human, being judged through a kind of the interface. It's not the extreme where you're going to lose your livelihood. And yet it also mediates a kind of way that we interact with each other. So, I think that whole set of questions are really like very important right now. And it doesn't just mean everything should be banned or delete all the apps. We know that that's not what we're looking towards right now and I think your generation has shown as well, change the world through the connectivity of issues that otherwise were invisible. Rumneek: There is that inspiring slant in the sense that with technology and people, there's always this like dystopic idea that robots are going to take over the world and replace all of the jobs. And I think that idea that you're saying that there is kind of opportunity there for people that otherwise may not have opportunity elsewhere, which is what I wanted to also ask you a little bit about. How do you think that the gig economy can kind of fill some of these gaps and level the playing field? And what do you think is needed? What more do you think is needed there? Professor Walsh: So, you do see a middling but is it going to be one that is positive for everyone? I think that remains to be seen. Right now, we're not on a good path. But like one of the things that really struck me in Nigeria, where you've got this incredible amount of tech knowhow, entrepreneurial, like just incredible amounts of creativity, like intelligence, all of this stuff that is kind of untapped with a shaky Internet system and a big population X, Y, Z. Like all these reasons why some of that know how intelligence, creativity is getting stuck. And the idea that some of this platform technology could allow a real flourishing of the ability to tap into folks that otherwise might not have been able to be part of the conversation. That really excites me. And I think there's a lot of cool stuff that we can see through that. On the other hand, is like, I hope it's not a race to the bottom to just across the board. We see companies really exploiting just the technology itself. And everybody on all sides, the transaction from the consumer to the worker to the business owner are all paying a price for that. There's a lot of issues to dig into that I think really moving at such a fast pace that regulators, I don't think are anywhere close to catching up. And as long as consumers just feel like the demystification of convenience, you know what? In the film, Derek Thompson called The Convenience Maximalism where convenience is our priority above and beyond absolutely everything, I think that will lead us in a dangerous path if we're really blinded by that kind of stuff entirely. So, we need like everybody part of it. We need like legal professionals, we need governments, we need consumers thinking about the ways that they want to spend their money. And I think there's a lot of levels we can continue to make change right now. And the last thing I'll say is I think to the point of like, how can we see people being able to use this in positive ways, right now, we're seeing like workers organizing across the world in ways like I don't think anybody could have ever imagined. And I think if we really get behind that and support that, we might see a real transformation. I think your generation is really demanding work life to be different. And I really feel encouraged by that. Like if there's a strong like refusal, it's like, no, we're just not going to do that, which is what we're seeing on campuses. We're seeing that already of like just no, like that's not okay and we don't accept it. So, I think we have a potential with a lot of movement that's happening already for things like that not to shift. Carol: So, you met a lot of really interesting people through this documentary. And one person that I don't know if obsessed is the right word, but I really appreciate it was Jason. I was wondering if you could maybe elaborate a little bit more on who he as a person and what you learned through him and because if you like, his story was really inspiring and it was a positive turn on how technology can really help someone who's been kind of effed through the system. Professor Walsh: Absolutely. Yeah. Jason's one of my favorites as well and like takes up some screen time because of that. I think for sure he was for people who hadn't seen the film living in rural Florida and taking care of his mom, and yeah, he's got gold teeth and he's like tattooed and all this. And he really on first read and he says himself like people discriminate a lot on him just based on his appearance alone and where he grew up and all of that. But he's also someone who’s a home-based care worker with taking care of an ailing parent. A lot of people that are doing this kind of work right now too or people who are taking care of ailing family members or their children or their parents, grandparents, whatnot or who have someone with a disability at home and they just can't. So, yeah. So, in a way, his story really inspired me because he has all the stereotypes stacked against him. And yet he is like one of the most loving, kind and generous people like that I've ever met. Just such a pleasure to spend time with him and his openness about the process. And the other thing was that he knew that he had to game the system to--because it was so sad against him. So, yeah, Jason's just-- yeah, very to me, a very lovable character. And really this film was like about the human side of technology and Jason just captured so well, like how complicated those human stories can be and that there's real people living complicated lives are not one thing or another. There are many things. And yeah. So, he was really fun to film with and I keep in touch with Jason still. Rumneek: Yeah, he was great. When he was talking about the strategies he uses, like his identities for filling out surveys. I was like, “that’s genius”. I wanted to revisit what you said about how one, like, this kind of protection of workers does require everybody. But like you said, we're here, this is where we're at. Technology is everywhere. And I think it is a lot of-- looking at it from the perspective that it does give opportunity in the way that like you said, millennials, Gen Zs, we're over it. We're not taking anything for anybody. Job security, job loyalty, simply not a thing with our generation, like not happening. My job is not my life and nor will it ever be. Anyways, how do you think that this will transform the nature of work in that sense that specifically young people especially are maybe getting jobs in the gig economy to supplement their regular jobs, but also fighting for what it is that they deserve and not making their job their entire existence if they don't have to. Professor Walsh: Yeah. I mean, I think for the younger generation, in a way, you guys need to take this in more than anybody, because the sense of freedom through the gig economy is still, I think, a pervasive feeling. It's not only that you have to do it but that like what are the alternatives in the formal sector seem like not interesting. And I actually interviewed influencers in China that I was thinking to put in the film because an influencer is also a gig worker on the platform economy. I think that understanding like what's lost is really important. I think in terms of what it means to be a collective and protected collectively as workers and even the word work almost feels like a dirty word. It's like you might not work to live, you want to make some money, but yeah, you don't want to be a worker so to speak. But if you think of many of the types of workers in the film as some of them like delivery workers complain, well, while I'm waiting, I should be being paid. So the availability of people to do discreet tasks also maybe that's the way we think about a task-based work where we might still shift jobs but we need protection, whether that's through social night or through some kind of a collective structure that we're creating. We've gone a lot further in our comfort with letting go of traditional protections of work than I think any of us even realized we were letting go of. And suddenly, like, literally, the laws are changing under our noses. And to me, that's very frightening that this wasn't even a public conversation. This is happening based on companies and based on our own kind of familiarity with our smartphones and our comfort with loosening up our relationship to what work means. So, yeah, I hope that answered your question. Rumneek: Yeah, you did. When you mentioned that influencers are like gig workers, can you elaborate on that? So, I feel like people don't think about it in that way. And I know I definitely didn't until you said that. Professor Walsh: I started with Uber and Deliveroo and those type of things because I know we all get it, we get that. But what the film really wants to talk about is the platform economy, and many things can fit on that. I got very fascinated by the idea that, yeah, influencers, they're not paid by that platform that they're using. I spend time with an influencer who uses Weibo in China who makes a decent amount of money selling mainly diet and beauty products online to her multimillion followers or whatnot. And she's being raided. That might not be in the stars of “Did you get my food to me hot enough?” But it's a system of ratings of being rated of how do you get popular enough to keep on. And it's extremely constricting. Like she also talked about being tethered to her phone like lots of the workers I talk to of starting to think of your life in terms of its relationship with how you're going to be seen and all of that kind of thing. And what is the actual responsibility of the platform to her? None. What does all of that putting in really pay back to her when she's not posting? Nothing. Right. Like she is disposable. Like every other worker that we saw is disposable. As soon as somebody with more followers or like a better tropical destination background it might get. So, I think there's a continuum of the type of jobs that we see on that on platforms, right? But how different are those jobs really? I mean, maybe what people are making. But I talk to a lot of influencers who don't make very much money too. And I'm sure that you guys know people who hustle has to hustle trying to make what get a brand acknowledgment so that they can have like coconut water in their fridge or something. Like how does that translate into like a wage if you really put it together? It's dreamy, it's a fantasy, it's not even real. And so, I think that a lot of that is back to that kind of the fantasy that technology has peddled us about the dream that can happen through this. For workers doing Uber, it's like, I'm going to have free time. I can spend time with my family. I'll be able to make a good amount of money and like how different is that from someone who's brand marketing themselves on Instagram or whatever? Not that different. We talked about it briefly, but I think the ratings is good not to miss talking about. Because I think if there's one place that we can collectively say right this minute, we can make a quick shift it's to understand that rating a human for their labor in a way that could lose them their livelihood has to stop. Professor Walsh: That is just the outsourcing thing of being able to hire and fire people to the random public. I always rate just five stars. I don't care what the service was. It's never okay to base someone's livelihood on a time or half an hour interaction with someone is just not fair. And I think because we're so used to the reliance we have on ratings of objects products, restaurants and things like that, that we made this quick slip over to feeling it's okay to rate someone's ability to have or lose their job. And I think more people recognize that that's what they're doing, the less they'll do it I hope. A few bad ratings, even one bad rating, you can be just kicked off the app with no recourse. And because you're an independent contractor, you have no labor protections whatsoever to take that up with anyone even. Carol: Not to like add vanity to this very intellectual conversation. But in terms of rating and I can only speak for these millennials but we love the esthetic apps and especially with Uber. I can’t remember what it was like years prior. But recently I started noticing that like there would be like emojis next to like how satisfied you are with the service and it makes it into a game almost that you want to rate. And I have found in my own experience that the quirkier the image is with whatever the rating is, the more likely I am to like hit five stars and like great communication skills like super friendly. And so, I wonder if that's potentially a solution for younger generation to love that kind of stuff. That's kind of a game like perhaps is how we got people to actually rate better. Professor Walsh: Well, but the companies don't want you to rate better. They want you to release period, right? So, like your interaction is what they're-- it's all gamified though and you hit it right on the head though. All of its gamified, the work itself is gamified. Your addiction to your phone is gamified. Your ability to respond to what used to be boring surveys on consumer response is gamified. They've tapped into the psychology, our emotional psychology around apps and like technology. And so yeah, I mean look we're in a dangerous mess with all this that honestly, we all are. I'm definitely right there with you. And I think instead of saying I'm going to rate you and that goes to your employer and is going to lose your job. Is there a way to make something a bit more human and all of that? Carol: It's funny because like I'm not a Gen Z you per se but I know with a lot of the Gen Z, their kind of humor or I guess their identity is like they're really hard core and they'll call people out when it comes to customer service. They're so scared to actually be rude because they understand I don't know how but they understand that the ratings are really impactful to whoever is kind of being rated as opposed to if you like perhaps zillenials--and older where we're like, “I'm paying you.” But the younger kids are like, “No, like, we get it.” And perhaps it's because they grew up with Instagram and they're always being rated and stuff. But I thought that was really interesting how the generations also think differently about it. Professor Walsh: Yeah, that's a great point. And yeah, I hope that that means that and I have a lot of faith that Gen Z is going to disrupt a lot more stuff as far as they mosey along. So, I definitely hope that this is an area that's native to they're kind of thinking about the world that also will inform the things that need to change. Because we're on a cusp and there's room to change. It's not done. It's not over. This is not over. We're not in a cemented down system right now. Everything is up for grabs still. So, there's room and I think there's the knowledge and yeah, it would be amazing to see what like the culture of calling out and what does it mean to be in community? What does it mean to respect each other and care for each other in the way that we support work? What would that look like in an app-based culture that's developed by this generation that's pushing back? I hope they can hang on to it. Because into their later years when they're building the things that are around the world or now I mean, why not?. We've got the skills, right? So, I'm hopeful. I try to keep hopeful. It can be very dark. It's a dark time right now. Look at the climate crisis. We see the lack of options, like gig work is sometimes the only work available to a lot of people. So, we got to also realize that human action has always been what's changed the world. Like everything that's good that we have has come from people working to do it, to make it, to have it happen. So, there's a lot of room I think we still have to grow and change and I for one, am going to hold on to that as much as possible and have faith in what's to come, that there is a lot of human creativity and intelligence that we can tap into from all over the world with stuff like this. There is a collectivity that can be found. And I think we all want freedom from a rigid way of working. We want those promises of flexibility, of having our time to ourselves or being able to manage the way in which we work and how much we work. I think those are great goals. That we want to fight for. We just want to fight for it in a way that's not going to make it an impossible to live situation or one in which we're working with our computers in our beds waiting for that being to tell us it's time to get up and do the next task. Rumneek: I think that was a beautiful note to kind of wrap, like a positive note to wrap up on. I'm just thinking, Yeah, I want to be a Gen Z when I grew up but that's a different conversation. Professor Walsh: I know. Me too. Carol: I think we're way past that. Rumneek: It’s just not going to stop me from trying. Carol: And we love our revolution. Rumneek: I've learned a lot and I feel affirmed and hopeful now so-- Professor Walsh: Don't feel too hopeful though because you need to feel terrified enough to go and tell your friends. Rumneek: I'm in a perpetual state of being terrified. Professor Walsh: Yeah, I know, I know. And my actual heart for you guys and everybody younger. I mean, for me too, I'm Gen X and we've always been gloomy so we're like-- for all the rest where you're like, “Oh, god, I don't know how you hold it all in.” So, we have to laugh and be hopeful and find the things to have joy and connection around for sure. And there's lots. So, yeah, that's the thing that keeps us going for sure and wanting to fight for something better. Rumneek: Well, thank you for this. This was incredible. It was really great. I feel like I have so much to process and now I'm going to look at influencers in a completely different way now. I'm still stuck on the influencer thing. Professor Walsh: Awesome. It was lovely to talk to you guys too, really lovely to get to hear some of your thoughts on the show and everything too. It's always a pleasure in this COVID time to get to have some interaction. Good luck with the podcast. It really sounds like it'll be great and it was really fun to chat Rumneek: Okay. That does it for our first episode of From Here Forward. We hope you liked it. ‘Cause that’s kind of why we’re doing this. Carol: We do love to be loved. And thanks again to Professor Walsh. If you haven’t seen her film yet, do. It really does make you think - and in this case, that’s pretty important. The human side of the gig economy is something that we all need to think about, a lot more than we do. But hey, you don’t have to just take my word for it. We know it’s all about those ratings ratings ratings … and The Gig is Up has the 100% on Rotten Tomatoes. So. Ya. Rumneek: We're super excited to keep these good-news stories coming - so, make sure you catch our next episode by subscribing or following our show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you want to share the love, like we do, drop us a review. You can also find me on Twitter @Rumneeek. [https://www.twitter.com/@Rumneeek] With 3 E’s. Carol: And me @caroleugenepark [https://www.twitter.com/caroleugenepark] Rumneek: Thanks for listening! Till next time, From Here Forward is an alumni UBC podcast [https://alumni.ubc.ca/], produced by Podium Podcast Company [https://www.podiumpodcastco.com/]. Carol: Byee