0:17

Hello everyone and welcome to From Lab to Launch

0:19

by Qualio. I'm Kelly from Qualio

0:22

and your host for today. We're glad you're here. Today

0:24

we're interviewing two innovators on

0:27

the front lines of life sciences and co-authors

0:29

of a recent book we'll talk about and link to in

0:31

the show notes. Dr. Eugene

0:33

Lipov has been called the Einstein

0:36

of Modern Anesthesiology. He's a renowned

0:38

board certified pain specialist and a

0:40

huge proponent of Stella Ganglion

0:43

Block, a minimally invasive procedure

0:45

that has been proven effective in treating P T

0:47

S D symptoms. Jamie Mustard is

0:50

an artist and a renowned strategic consultant.

0:53

He is the author of the bestselling book, the

0:55

Iconist, the Art and Science of

0:57

Standing Out. Beginning as a child

1:00

and then into adulthood. He suffered years of trauma

1:02

at varying levels before stumbling across

1:04

Dr. Lipov and the dual sympathetic reset

1:07

procedure. we're gonna dive into their

1:09

groundbreaking revelation That

1:11

psychological trauma manifests as

1:13

a physical injury that can be seen

1:16

and monitored on a brain scan, and

1:18

the revolutionary approach to resetting

1:20

the sympathetic nervous system that has helped countless

1:22

patients suffering from chronic pain, anxiety,

1:25

P T S D, and other related conditions.

1:28

Let's bring them in. So we

1:30

usually only have one guest on the show, but today

1:32

we're excited to have both of you here. Tell

1:34

us briefly about how you guys got connected

1:37

and then decided to co-author this book together.

1:40

You want me to go. Sure. How

1:43

about Gene? Alright, go. You'll

1:45

do better job than I'll.

1:46

Um, you know, I don't know. I started

1:48

to get, you know, I came, I had to overcome a lot

1:51

in life literacy issues, parental

1:53

abandonment from a very young age, the

1:55

kind of trauma that most people don't

1:58

ever come back from, quite

2:00

honestly. Uh, and so

2:03

at, you know what, you know, I was very motivated

2:05

by. Uh,

2:08

you know that if I somehow got successful, if

2:10

I somehow achieved education, if

2:12

I somehow had affluence rather than

2:14

poverty, that these would make

2:16

all my problems go away. And

2:18

I found that the more I

2:20

achieved and the more I was kind of getting what

2:22

I wanted in life, that the discomfort I

2:24

was feeling was not going away.

2:27

Um, and so I started trying to figure

2:29

out, uh, I started trying to look and figure

2:32

out, uh, why that was, in certain ways it was getting

2:34

worse because now I didn't have an excuse for it. Uh,

2:37

and that's, so I started searching and

2:39

through a series of fortunate

2:41

events, I ended up meeting, uh,

2:44

through actually a military trauma psychologist.

2:47

I ended who, who I, who I shared a literary

2:49

agent with. I met, uh, Dr.

2:52

Lip off and, uh, transformed.

2:54

That transformed my life in the way that I move

2:57

through the world.

2:58

I love that story. Yeah. That's, um,

3:01

I real, I think people, a lot of people carry these

3:03

things around and then, Run into these

3:05

walls, but just never connect

3:07

the dots or figure out how to break through.

3:10

Um, in, in that, so that

3:13

just sort of fumbling around through

3:15

therapeutic pathways. I mean, how did you,

3:17

how did you come across that? I,

3:19

well, you know, six or seven years ago, for the

3:21

first time in my life, I'd achieved enough that I was never willing

3:23

to look back. Like

3:26

the only thing that worked for me was looking forward

3:28

and being in complete denial that anything was wrong

3:30

with me or that anything ever happened

3:32

to me. I was in total denial. The

3:34

worst thing one could possibly be

3:36

in my view of the world was be a victim.

3:39

So I was completely lying to myself

3:41

that I'd ever been victimized. Right?

3:44

And so, But as

3:46

I achieved and felt this great discomfort

3:49

with achievement, I, I

3:51

thought something's wrong. I'm not supposed

3:53

to feel this way. This is, this is supposed to feel

3:55

good. So, uh,

3:57

I, i, uh, I

4:00

went to see a therapist for the first time and

4:02

she diagnosed me with, uh, complex posttraumatic

4:04

stress disorder, which very much

4:06

upset me. And, and I kind

4:09

of laughed in her face when she said it. I mean, I just

4:11

thought it was preposterous. And

4:13

then she said,

4:15

You know, her eyes welled up and she said, have you been listening

4:17

to the stories you've been telling me and

4:20

my like, BS

4:24

bullshit life narrative kind of fell

4:26

apart in that moment. And I like to say

4:28

I started hugging the cactus. Mm-hmm.

4:31

And you know, it was, it was very providential what

4:33

happened right around that time. A forensic

4:35

psychiatrist. And I was always leery

4:37

of psychiatrists cause I thought they just drug

4:40

people or you know. But he was a

4:42

fan of my other work and had reached out to

4:44

me. And I'd heard about Dr. Lip Hop's

4:46

work, and this guy was a really

4:48

renowned forensic psychiatrist who liked

4:51

my other work. So I said, Hey, can you vet

4:53

this for me? And he did

4:55

that and he basically, you know,

4:57

there's, you know, and basically what he came back

4:59

with is what's the upside? What's

5:01

the downside? There was pure upside,

5:04

no downside, no dependency

5:06

on drugs, no mitigation where I'd

5:08

have to be like taking something for the rest of my life,

5:10

doing yoga every day for the rest of my life.

5:13

You know, like this appeared to be

5:15

a reset of the fight or flight system

5:17

in the body and there was no downside.

5:20

So a coup a few years ago,

5:22

two and a half years ago, I braved, covid.

5:25

I got on a plane with eight people in the middle of Covid.

5:28

Flew to Chicago. It was like a sci-fi movie, and,

5:30

um, and underwent,

5:33

um, the reset

5:35

of the, the sympathetic nervous system.

5:38

Interesting. And, and so, um, just pulling

5:40

from some of my own life and having been

5:42

through some E M D

5:44

R training, um,

5:47

one question I had a little further down, but I feel

5:49

like I should pull it in now, was, um,

5:51

talking about what the D

5:53

S R P is and how it differs from other

5:55

treatments for, um, whether it's

5:57

the anxiety and the, well we call it

6:00

dsr. It is, you could call it DS rrp.

6:02

We should bring the, we should bring the physician here for the

6:05

surgery. Yes. So Dr. Lipov

6:07

okay, thank you. So first of all, it's not d

6:09

Sr. It's not D S R

6:11

P. I don't know what that is. So d sr

6:13

is dual sympathetic reset. So if you don't

6:15

mind, let me give you the history of terminology.

6:18

Yeah. You know, it's sciencey. You can't have

6:20

to be really accurate when it took sciencey stuff.

6:22

Right. So lot lots talk sciencey

6:24

stuff. So Stella Ganging Block has been

6:27

around since 1926.

6:29

It's a procedure that's been. Done

6:31

by pain physicians for many years,

6:34

specifically for hand pain, burning

6:36

pain and other things, purpose pain and

6:38

stuff like that. So in

6:42

2003, I figured out that we

6:44

can use that procedure to take away hot

6:47

flashes, and

6:49

then I published on that. So the critique

6:51

of the procedure to me was, yes,

6:53

it's working, but you don't know how it works with sterile

6:55

garbage. So that

6:58

gave me a lot of encouragement to figure out. Why

7:01

it worked for half flashes. So

7:03

in reviewing a bunch of medical articles, I came across

7:05

an article where I did T2 clipping

7:08

in the Chest, which is a fight and flight nerves are

7:10

in the chest. What's clipping, Dr.

7:12

Lippa clipping is putting

7:14

a metal clip on nerve to turn

7:17

it off. Okay. Basically have

7:19

to push the lung out of the way

7:21

and put a clip on the nerve, which

7:23

is pretty good size procedure. I

7:26

was gonna say that's fairly invasive, right?

7:29

And they found the hand sweats went away, but

7:32

P T S D went away also. So

7:35

I review that literature, I was like, I had no

7:37

idea why that would be. So I look at the literature,

7:39

it turns out the nerve sympathetic nerve here

7:41

goes to the bundle of nerves in the

7:43

neck and after the brain. So

7:47

I treated the first patient for P T

7:49

S D in 2006 and published

7:51

on that in 2008. So

7:54

kind of speeding it up. Then military has adopted

7:56

it. I've done a number of institutions that was replicated.

8:00

I had a patient that was very severe, P

8:02

T S D. We did a procedure on him and

8:04

usually after the procedure people feel significantly

8:06

better, 10, 15 minutes. So he's looking

8:08

at me 40 minutes later. It's like I'm still in

8:10

a lot of trouble and I had no

8:12

idea what to do at that point, cuz all I know is

8:15

how to do the block. That's all that's ever been done

8:17

by paying people like me. I

8:19

was pretty frightened. Put it mildly.

8:21

I had to change my shorts after that day.

8:25

Um, but you

8:27

know, almost, anyway, so

8:30

before I got into P T S D Ward, I was

8:32

doing procedures in,

8:34

uh, Norway, they government of Norway

8:36

environment to help them with healthcare

8:39

treatment. So we came

8:41

up with a, I learned how to do a procedure

8:43

called Superior Cervical Gang Glen Block, which is the injection

8:45

higher up the neck. So

8:49

I, this guy was in a lot of trouble. I took him back.

8:51

He was a sniper for the Marines, and

8:54

we do, I did the second procedure higher

8:57

up. 10 minutes

8:59

later after he left. He

9:01

was doing great. We followed about five years

9:03

and he was fine. So I, I

9:05

was scratching my head because it's never been done.

9:07

I was like, why would that be? So I looked

9:09

up, a book was

9:11

called St. Gle Blog by James Moore,

9:14

published in 56 out of Princeton,

9:16

72. Spot there is a

9:18

very clear explanation. Turns out

9:20

fine and flight nerves go from the chest up

9:23

to the neck. At C seven,

9:25

go up to the brain following vertebral

9:27

artery, which is half the nerves. The

9:29

other half goes up to the neck higher and

9:31

goes to different part of the brain following

9:33

internal carotid artery. And that

9:35

is why we are doing now dsr dual

9:38

sympathetic reset. We are doing

9:40

two levels, seven, one, and

9:42

the reason it's called dual is our best. Sympathetic

9:45

because it's fighting flight system reset is

9:47

because what I believe it actually happens,

9:49

PTs D what PS D is they

9:52

have severe trauma or multiple small

9:54

traumas that activates fighting

9:56

flight system, or sympathetic in sciencey

9:58

terms that Jamie would say and he get

10:01

stuck in that position. So if

10:03

you can reset the pre trauma state,

10:05

like computer, if you have a computer and

10:08

you have software problems, you put a

10:10

patch on, but if the hardware's broken,

10:12

it's not gonna work. Right. So what we

10:14

are doing here is we do the hardware reset

10:16

by doing the dsr, and

10:19

then we can do psychotherapy

10:21

following that. That's like software patch

10:23

and it seems to work best as together.

10:25

So that's kinda a long answer.

10:27

Yeah. The way you have to look at it is, you know the book

10:29

is called The Invisible Machine, right?

10:32

And what the reason we call it that

10:34

is you have to look at, at, we've

10:37

been looking at trauma as a disorder. It's not,

10:39

it's 100% a biological injury.

10:42

Okay. And, um,

10:44

it's, you, you could compare it to a

10:46

broken leg. You can't see, there's

10:48

all these incredible therapies out there from

10:50

EMDR to, uh,

10:53

to talk therapy, to ketamine, to

10:55

psilocybin. There's all these things

10:58

and, uh, but you

11:00

wouldn't do physical therapy over a broken

11:02

leg. And you, and,

11:04

and what's so important about it also,

11:06

so all he's doing is resetting the leg

11:08

and then these other

11:09

things become far more effective. You're

11:11

fixing the hardware before you attack

11:14

the software. If you're trying to fix,

11:17

uh, if you're trying to run software on a broken computer,

11:19

it's not gonna run very well.

11:20

Uh, and, and also, you

11:22

know, the concept of a disorder is incredibly

11:24

stigmatizing, right?

11:27

Yes. Yeah. And, and,

11:28

and it's also not true, right? In,

11:30

in 85 to 90% of cases

11:33

when someone gets a dual sympathetic reset,

11:35

um, their, their extreme

11:37

symptoms are gone. They're just a person again. And

11:41

what's, what's all, you know, what's important about the

11:43

relationship between the dsr,

11:45

the dual sympathetic reset and its origins

11:48

in the slight GANGLING block,

11:50

which was developed in 19 25, 19

11:52

26. Alba's been around for a hundred years,

11:55

is that we know that it's safe and,

11:58

and, uh, there's no, there's no side

12:00

effects. There's nothing else. Uh,

12:03

Uh, that exists that

12:05

can give someone so much

12:07

space and so much room to

12:10

then better and improve their condition

12:12

that is experiencing, uh,

12:15

uh, fight or flight symptoms. In fact, you know,

12:18

this work is really about Dr. Lip at

12:20

his innovation. Where I come into

12:22

this is, you know, maybe

12:24

as an amplifier using art and story

12:26

to amplify his

12:27

work,

12:28

but also maybe I see his work from a different

12:30

perspective because where I come from, You

12:33

know, when I, when we, he, when he and I met, he's been

12:35

somebody, I have incredible respect for him

12:38

because of how much pushback he's had over the last

12:40

20 years. Uh, how many

12:42

people told him that he was wrong? Uh,

12:44

Even though it's now been public, peer

12:46

reviewed, Matt, you know, published in massive,

12:48

you know, major peer reviewed journals. The Army studied

12:50

it. The Navy studied that. Barack Obama endorsed

12:53

it back in 2008. The military's

12:55

probably doing 15 to 20,000 of these a year.

12:57

It's been on 60 minutes. Good. You know, this is,

12:59

it's begotten, very mainstream. Despite whatever

13:01

pushback he's gotten, uh, the,

13:04

the, he's gotten incredibly far.

13:07

In 20 years, but when I first came across

13:09

the work, I didn't see it in relation

13:12

to the military. I didn't see it in relation

13:14

to, um,

13:17

first

13:17

responders

13:18

or sexual assault victims who are the biggest cohorts

13:20

getting this right now? I, when I saw

13:22

you, you have to look at the symptoms of what fight

13:24

or flight symptoms are, as Dr. Lip hop describes

13:26

it as how you would feel if you were running

13:29

from a tiger. Mm-hmm. If you were

13:31

running from a

13:31

tiger, you would be anxious. You

13:34

have mild paranoia as the tiger gonna be here

13:36

in a second, you would've a sense of doom. The

13:39

tiger's gonna, you would not be able to relax.

13:41

You'd be hyper-vigilant about the tiger. You'd

13:43

be hyper aroused because there's a tiger right around

13:45

you. You wouldn't be able to sleep. Um,

13:48

if there was a tiger chasing you, you

13:50

would have a hair trigger. You'd be very reactive. Okay?

13:54

Um, and in the ultimate, the ultimate

13:56

form of fight or flight or flight in the

13:58

military where people tend, are trained to protect

14:00

is suicide the ultimate form of flight.

14:03

And in the neighborhoods where I grew up, where violence is

14:05

more acceptable towards each other, uh,

14:07

the ultimate form of fight is violent

14:10

ideation or homicide. So when

14:12

I saw the, um,

14:15

symptoms that, uh, the

14:17

DSR affected, I didn't, I

14:19

saw my, the neighborhoods where I grew up. I thought

14:21

a hundred percent of people have this from low. You

14:23

can get this from two ways. One is

14:26

a blunt force

14:27

trauma where amygdala sends a signal to these

14:29

nerves in your neck, the select gang. Um,

14:32

and you get heightened. If it's too overwhelming,

14:34

you get it, it stays heightened. And, and

14:36

Dr. Leach can explain the sign. Yes. Jamie, if

14:38

I may, can I interrupt you a second? Yes, for

14:40

sure. Yeah. Uh, so let, let, let's talk about my

14:42

favorite term, p dsi, that you're. Alluding

14:45

to. Okay, so, so that

14:47

term was developed by Dr. Frank Berg,

14:49

very famous psychiatrist, came up with the term

14:52

Stockholm syndrome. So

14:54

when we are talking about trauma and

14:56

that's why you, you got pretty

14:58

much everything correct and be better than

15:00

I could say, Jamie. The only thing that

15:02

I think to remember is you don't

15:04

need to have a hit in head blood trauma

15:06

or any kind of trauma at all. You

15:09

can see somebody being shot in front of you, you can

15:11

get P T S D from that. So when you say

15:13

P T S I, we are talking about post traumatic

15:15

stress Injury. Injury

15:17

means the nervous system is overactive,

15:21

amygdala is overactive, and you can actually

15:23

measure it. That's why it's biologic, and that's

15:25

why we're working on changing the name P T

15:27

S D to P PTs. I. But

15:29

I just want people to think that it

15:31

involves physical trauma. You

15:33

don't need physical trauma. If somebody

15:35

ignores you or starves you. Your

15:38

brain is changing. That's

15:40

what you're trying to say. Yeah. And you can actually measure,

15:42

you can reverse advising the sr.

15:45

That's the state. Yeah. So rather than

15:47

being

15:48

treating something, you're fixing something. And where

15:50

I was gonna go from where he was saying

15:52

is blunt force trauma and extreme

15:54

trauma. Typically if you have a near-death experience,

15:56

you slip while going down a mountain or something

15:58

and you catch yourself, your amygdala sends

16:00

a signal to these nerves in your neck, and that's what

16:02

jolts you into fight or flight to save your life.

16:05

Okay. Now if that trauma is too great

16:07

and we can explain, we can explain the science behind

16:09

this, um, the system stays

16:12

stuck. You never come back to baseline five hours

16:14

later. Okay. The other thing that

16:16

can cause it to get stuck, to go up

16:18

and stay stuck, that's why it's a physical injury.

16:21

You've changed your biology

16:23

in your neck as an injury as if you cut yourself,

16:26

right? It's an injury. You've changed it

16:28

through, um, an event, uh,

16:31

a bi that's measurable biologically.

16:33

Um, And that now

16:35

those nerves are now sending false

16:38

signals to your brain. That

16:39

fight or flight is occurring 24

16:40

hours a day, 365 days a year,

16:43

seven days a week. We break this all down

16:45

in the book. Okay. Um,

16:47

the other thing that causes it, that I think is the more

16:50

prevalent cause the more, uh,

16:54

Uh, the massive cause of this,

16:56

people getting stuck in fight or flight. And

16:58

this is where maybe I'm contributing to the conversation.

17:01

I'm not the inventor. I am, I've

17:03

been given the honor to help this guy, right?

17:06

Uh, but where, where I think I'm contributing to the

17:08

conversation is the other thing

17:10

that causes this, that I think is the more predominant

17:13

thing causing this. I, I believe 40 to 50%

17:16

of the US and global population have this

17:18

injury in their body. Um,

17:21

Is, uh, uh, carrying allostatic

17:24

load, long-term

17:26

chronic stress,

17:27

long-term, extreme stress. Our,

17:29

our, you know, Gabo

17:31

just came out of a book, uh, with a book called The Myth

17:33

of Normal. It's New New York Times best seller, where

17:35

he is basically saying our modern society,

17:38

our modern digital, um, kind

17:41

of. Artificial society,

17:43

artificial boxes. We live in an artificial

17:45

box. We go in another roving artificial box

17:47

to go to another artificial box and work.

17:50

We don't have the, all the things that mitigate

17:52

against nature, the things that calm

17:54

us, that, that are in line with our evolutionary

17:56

biology, right? So mm-hmm. Low level

17:58

chronic stress, or lo or

18:01

allostatic load. Okay. Like

18:04

death by a thousand cuts also can cause

18:06

this system like, like what

18:08

I experienced with poverty. Okay. Um,

18:11

can cause this system to stay

18:13

stuck. And you have, and a person

18:15

that grows up in a neighborhood like me has the

18:17

exact same 7, 8,

18:20

9 symptoms that of somebody

18:22

coming back from Afghanistan and

18:24

there is a host of

18:26

physiological and autoimmune conditions

18:29

that cascade. From having

18:31

an overactive sympathetic nervous system

18:35

makes

18:35

sense. Uh, we, we aren't

18:37

prepared biologically. For

18:40

these kinds of things. Our system just sees

18:42

it as flight or fight or flight. And I think, uh,

18:44

yeah, that, how that cascades

18:46

is, is really well,

18:48

that's kind of taking all of it to the next level.

18:50

Right? I mean, if we, if we start to work with other

18:52

healthcare professionals to incorporate this

18:55

into an overall treatment plan, right now

18:57

we're looking at things a little more holistically.

19:00

Would

19:00

you,

19:01

would you say? Yeah. I mean, I, I think that, you know, you

19:03

know, What I would say is

19:05

even the most skeptical people

19:07

that I've interviewed, I've gone around the, the, the country

19:09

the last two years and interviewed some of the top, you

19:12

know, scientists in the world to comment on this from Steven

19:14

Porges, Dr. Frank Ochberg, who coined the term

19:16

Stockholm syndrome, as well as post-traumatic stress injury,

19:19

P T S I, um,

19:21

uh, gabo Dr. Daniel Amon.

19:24

Um, I've gone around.

19:27

And spoken to these guys and even,

19:30

you know, and also who've been partners,

19:32

but

19:32

also I've talking to, talked to a lot of cynical

19:34

doctors who believe that this work

19:36

works. But it's just another modality. And

19:38

what I say to them is, like, what I say when I

19:40

get that pushback is, okay, well what should

19:42

someone do first? Should

19:45

they do MD r first? Should they do this first? And

19:47

even the, the, the, the most cynical

19:49

person that would say they do this. You

19:52

know, I, I, I've had people that have gone through

19:54

sexual abuse, uh, uh, really

19:56

struggle, can really struggle with mdr, right?

19:59

So there's no downside to this.

20:01

There's no side effects. You, you, you're

20:03

through it. 15 minute out pres safe

20:06

outpatient procedure over one to two

20:08

days. Um, and

20:10

I think it, if it's the most important medical

20:12

innovation, since when all the data comes

20:14

in, since the discovery of penicillin

20:17

in 1928, it dwarfs,

20:19

um, the polio vaccine. If you just look at

20:21

how many

20:22

people from die from suicide every year,

20:24

um, uh, compared to how many death,

20:27

how many people were, whose lives were

20:29

saved from, you know,

20:32

Uh, taking the polio vaccine, the,

20:34

um, it, it, it, when you removed

20:36

it, when you reset the fight or flight system,

20:39

um, the data will show that

20:41

people just don't commit suicide after you do that,

20:44

right? Yeah. That, you know, we think it's a disorder. We,

20:46

you have to think of it like this. Back to the running

20:48

from the tiger thing. Okay. If

20:51

you feel like you're running from a tiger 24

20:53

hours a day, seven days a week, 365

20:56

days a year, and you're feeling all those things, anxiety,

20:59

mild paranoia, sense of doom, hypervigilance,

21:01

hyper arousal, lack of sleep, hair trigger

21:03

if you're feel, and then the guys that come back

21:05

from Afghanistan, Uh, they

21:07

have ed because you can't have sex if you're running

21:09

from a tiger. Mm-hmm. Cause that's the last thing that's gonna be on your mind.

21:12

Okay. And you're feeling

21:13

that 24 hour, we're designed

21:15

to feel that for 30 seconds and then

21:17

save our life, or, you know, be

21:19

consumed. We're not, we're,

21:21

we're not designed as human beings

21:23

to live in that state. So if you

21:25

feel that way, it's basically a description

21:27

of what it feels like

21:28

before you,

21:29

right before you're about to die. So if you

21:31

feel like you're about to, if

21:32

you're sitting

21:33

on your house watching Netflix, you

21:35

know, eating cottage cheese, and you're

21:37

always feeling like you're about to die, uh,

21:40

you're not gonna wanna live if you're always

21:42

feeling like you're about to die. And that's what that mechanism

21:44

is. What's what's most interesting to me

21:47

is that you can get this from

21:50

distant parents. You can get

21:52

this from not ha, a distant father

21:54

not having your emotional needs met. So

21:57

you have this math, massive

21:59

swath of, of the western

22:02

world, uh, that.

22:04

Doesn't ever

22:05

associate themselves with trauma that

22:07

has

22:08

these symptoms. They don't. They don't

22:10

think

22:10

anything ever happened to them, but they have these

22:12

symptoms in just as an extreme way

22:15

as somebody coming back from war or somebody

22:17

growing up under the conditions that I have. But they're a plumber,

22:19

a kindergarten teacher, a school principal,

22:21

a yoga instructor, and so I think

22:24

that's, My message

22:26

is I want people to

22:28

ask themselves if they have these symptoms,

22:31

realize that they're, because I know, I didn't realize

22:33

I was uncomfortable in my body. That's how I just thought

22:35

human existence was. Yeah. Until I met Dr.

22:38

Lip

22:38

off. Right. So you're describing

22:40

a lot of the challenges around this, right? Because

22:42

a lot of it's, uh, stigmatized tied to mental

22:44

health. Those kinds of things. Are

22:46

there, are there bigger? How

22:49

do we overcome that? Are there bigger clinical trials

22:51

happening? Uh, yeah. Dr.

22:53

Lippo, what? Let

22:54

me answer, well, the couple of things I'd like to

22:57

comment on. Number one, as

22:59

far as I would say

23:01

this fight and flight over activity is adaptive

23:05

from our past. Right? So

23:07

the problem is we,

23:09

we live in different type of environment. Mm-hmm. I

23:11

was interviewed once and they were saying, well, it's

23:14

not like, It's not as bad as it used to be.

23:16

Being changed by Tiger. I would say it's

23:18

probably much worse now because you

23:20

can't even move. You're sitting here absorbing stress.

23:23

What happens in your body is a fight, fight

23:25

or flight. Uh, transmitters

23:27

in the brain, norepinephrine increases

23:30

and it stays that way. That's the problem. But

23:32

as far as how do we go fourth, there are two

23:34

specific plans, plus number of plans.

23:36

Number one, I think Jamie's and

23:38

I book is kind of beginning to

23:40

talk to the layperson. So it

23:42

is designed to give specific examples,

23:45

but as Jamie would say, it's sciencey

23:47

enough that keeps people interested.

23:49

If people are really interested in the science aspect of it,

23:52

uh, that's kind of obviously my job. I can give you the

23:54

papers and explanation. So,

23:57

so stigma of mental health is one thing.

24:00

Biological proof is another. Right?

24:03

That's two different, they're, so,

24:05

lemme tell you what we are doing. First of all, my mother was under a care

24:07

of psychiatrist when I was a surgical

24:09

intern when she killed herself. So I'm

24:11

very interested in that aspect of it.

24:14

Um, so as

24:17

far as changing it, in fact, we just have a

24:19

p PSA that's being

24:21

made right now. We're gonna try to distribute it as

24:23

part and wide that talks about, and

24:26

we should have, should we have it available in about

24:28

a week. So basically it talks about the

24:30

name P T S D needs to be changed to P T

24:32

S I. Thankfully Dr. Arberg

24:35

is still around and he's willing to help us promote

24:37

that. So part the

24:39

end of the PSA ends with the following. So change

24:42

the name, remove

24:44

the stigma, save lives. That's,

24:46

that's the message. That's it. It's very

24:48

simple. That's one number. Yeah.

24:51

Sorry. Number two, sciences

24:54

stuff. So you can say whatever you like, but

24:56

what's the sciences stuff show? It was

24:58

one study that was done through the military, through

25:01

Fort Bragg, Tripler

25:03

and Lynch. Heim in Germany. It

25:05

was a reasonable study. Not the best I would say,

25:07

but it was okay. And it showed some good results, but they gave,

25:09

yeah, it's not, not convincing enough. Mm-hmm.

25:12

One of the problem with d

25:14

Sr, or S G B is

25:16

that there's no way to do placebo.

25:19

Right. Most of the trials people are used

25:21

to, right. You take a pill, you take a sugar pill, you can't

25:23

tell the difference, right? Right. When you do, when

25:26

you do the block and your eye is droopy,

25:28

which is coronary syndrome, you can tell the difference,

25:30

right? Mm-hmm. So there's no way to do a placebo.

25:32

So the conventional. Approach

25:34

just doesn't work. Right? Right. So

25:37

why we get around that? The only way to get around

25:39

is to do advanced scanners, functional

25:41

m, MRI or PET scan. There

25:43

was one study done in

25:46

north, uh, long Beach, California va,

25:48

where they did PET scan before

25:50

and after Stella eight, and they demonstrate deactivation

25:53

of amygdala. Amygdala. Overactivation

25:56

is considered diagnostic for

25:58

PTs. D We,

26:00

there was an amazing funder. They

26:03

gave us enough money to SU to actually

26:05

do this study the way it should be done. I

26:07

designed it, but it's being done by nyu

26:09

so I'm not touching that. So nyu, you

26:12

know, big institution, I think it's unimpeachable.

26:15

Whatever results will come back. So

26:17

they doing an F M R first

26:19

functional mri. We are doing other sciences

26:21

stuff. We are doing the dsr,

26:25

then we do the F M R after. So

26:27

the idea is that we'll show convincingly

26:30

was big enough of a number objectively

26:34

what's happening in the brain. I think

26:37

once that's done, that

26:39

is gonna be, that's gonna change all

26:42

the perspective because you, you can run around and

26:44

say, this is real, this is not real. You

26:46

know, there's debate. But if you have fml,

26:48

like if somebody has a broken leg and

26:51

you have a cast on, and six months

26:53

later the people who was casts.

26:56

Their legs healed. The ones has didn't heal.

26:59

There's no place to go for critique.

27:02

Right? Yeah. That's been about two

27:04

years. Hopefully the data will be out and

27:07

then we will have, we'll be able

27:09

to do this. There's already a lot of data cuz

27:11

the Army study,

27:11

the Navy study. But you know, to answer, I'd

27:14

like to kind of, to refer back

27:16

to your question, Kelly, of,

27:19

you know, it's kind of, how do you know what's the resistance

27:21

or how do you parse it out?

27:24

The, the pri and I'm gonna answer part of it and

27:26

then I'd like Dr. Libo to answer the second part of it.

27:28

But the first part of that answer,

27:30

it's such a great question, is the biggest

27:32

barrier that he's run into. And it's hard for me to

27:34

even say that because, What

27:37

he's done in 20 years. Considering

27:39

how, in how, just what the implications

27:42

for the innovation are, how far he

27:44

is gotten in in 20 years. Is

27:46

astonishing. Max Plank, a Nobel laureate from

27:49

the mid, from the 1940s, uh,

27:51

said that, uh, medical innovation

27:53

is one in funerals. You have to wait for

27:55

your opponents to die. So as much

27:58

as this should be as popular as Botox

28:00

and latex, considering how, uh,

28:02

ubiquitous it is in our society, it should be

28:04

as popular as lasik.

28:06

Uh, uh, it's still, he

28:08

and what he's done in 20 years is incredible. It should,

28:11

it's not. Ubiquitous. Right.

28:13

And the reason for that is it's been collapsed

28:15

with other modalities. When it's

28:17

not other modalities, it gets collapsed with

28:20

EMDR psycho, you know, and it's completely

28:22

different. It's the fundamental reset that you should do first,

28:25

and then those things go way, way with better. Cuz those

28:27

things, there's some incredible modalities

28:29

out there. Yeah. Um, so, so that's been

28:32

the biggest barrier is, is it's being mixed

28:34

in with, you know, Equine therapy,

28:36

petting ponies, right? Mm-hmm. And

28:38

when it's its own thing. And then the

28:40

second thing is it's

28:42

incredible to believe, you know, we, he's not going

28:44

near the brain. You could scan the brain on an

28:47

FMR with a, with, with an F

28:49

m r i, with somebody that had distant parents. So

28:51

there, there, and you would see overactivity in

28:54

their amygdala. No one ever touched them. They

28:56

don't think they have trauma. You could do the d

28:58

s R over on them over two days, scan

29:00

their brain again, and the overactivity

29:03

in the amygdalas, calm down. And you'll likely

29:05

see increased blood flow to the frontal cortex.

29:08

Um, so that, so, uh,

29:10

that's just, and we, we

29:12

didn't go near the brain, we just went to these

29:14

nerves in the neck that are lying to the brain. But

29:17

I would like Dr. Lippo to share. I think

29:19

the other biggest thing is,

29:21

uh, I think a really good metaphor for why p

29:23

this and the whole point of the book. Is

29:26

to rip away

29:28

the barriers and use art

29:30

and storytelling in science to bring this to

29:32

the masses, to bring this to the world, to

29:34

make this a, you

29:36

know, Kleenex and a Coke, something that, because

29:39

if 50% of the population has it, and I

29:41

could, and we, and I could show you how I can get to those

29:43

numbers. That means

29:46

all of us either have it or are dealing

29:48

with 50 people that have it. You know, like we're

29:50

surrounded by people that are, that are exhibiting

29:52

these symptoms. And so,

29:55

uh, I, you know, one I'd like to, I

29:57

think Dr.

29:57

Lip Off could co Well, I'd like

29:59

Dr. Liftoff to, to tell the

30:01

story of Sweiss, cuz I think Sweiss

30:03

is a really good explanation

30:05

as to why. Um,

30:08

it hasn't been embraced and why we've had

30:10

to write a book and, and put it in every Barnes

30:12

and Noble in America to finally

30:14

get this to be known in the world.

30:17

All right, well, the two, well, there are two answers

30:20

I'd like to put in there. Number one is

30:22

that, um, one of

30:24

my bodies who a big professor basically

30:26

said, you have a credulity problem. It's hard to

30:28

believe. It's such a simple solution to

30:31

such complex issue. And

30:33

then people have been doing this procedure

30:36

since. 1926,

30:38

why did you figure it out as oppos to nobody

30:40

else? That's it's credulity

30:43

issue. And I gave him an answer and he go, yeah, whatever.

30:45

Move on. Anyway, so Jamie

30:48

brings down one of my favorite positions,

30:50

kind of cautionary tale. So

30:53

this is a gentleman who was born in Hungary

30:55

and he in uh, 1876

30:58

I believe, was start to practice

31:00

medicine, obstetrical medicine.

31:03

In, uh, Vienna, which was

31:06

the highlight of medical system in its

31:08

day. He noticed

31:10

that when women delivered babies

31:14

in a hospital, the chance with death

31:16

was three times higher compared to doing it at home

31:18

with midwives. So

31:21

he said, I don't know why it is, but it's happening. So he

31:23

published on that, of course, gets ignored. Then

31:25

he followed around the duck. Turns out the doctors

31:28

used to dissect dead people to autopsies

31:30

and run over to deliver babies.

31:34

And it's day. Nobody knew

31:36

about germ theory because this is before liven

31:39

hook, before they could actually look in germs

31:41

and stuff like that. Uh,

31:43

and the belief was if anything smelled putrid,

31:46

then that's how the

31:49

disease were transmitted by

31:51

bad smells, bad humor actually in the

31:53

air.

31:53

Mm-hmm. In there. Air,

31:55

whatever. Anyway, so

31:57

that was the thinking. So he published and then he goes

31:59

to the doctor and said, this is the research I published on

32:01

it. He wrote a book about it. He shows, well, you, what

32:04

year are we? What

32:04

is this? Is this 17, 18th,

32:06

19th century? 1876,

32:08

I believe. Okay. Something like that, that area.

32:11

So then he go, then

32:14

you think the doctors go, okay, that

32:16

makes perfect sense. Now you'd be wrong on that. So

32:19

what they did is they go, you're

32:21

accusing us of being filthy. That

32:24

is totally unacceptable. You're totally wrong.

32:26

They put him in a psych ward and he was beaten to

32:28

death within a month of admission in

32:31

a psych ward for, for telling people to wash their hands.

32:34

Yeah. Hold on. Hold, hold on. He got better. Yeah,

32:36

exactly. That's precisely. Well, so

32:39

then 20 years later, lister

32:42

figures out German theory, like Listerine. That's

32:44

all his big thing. Yeah. So

32:47

after that, the medical

32:49

establishment goes, oh my God,

32:51

we have to wash our hands. This is, we are

32:54

transmitting germs, which shouldn't be dissecting

32:56

dead bodies, getting all the bugs from them and putting it

32:58

in the y in, uh, women. And they're

33:00

dying of fevers

33:03

after they deliver babies and

33:06

they termed this physician level-wise,

33:08

or sh which are re pronounce it, um,

33:11

savior babies cause

33:13

humorously. So what I was telling

33:15

Jamie when he and I met is that I'm so

33:17

heavy. Number one, I'm not a psych ward. Number

33:20

two, I'm glad I wasn't beaten to death in a psych ward

33:22

number. And

33:27

here, and actually we are getting

33:29

momentum and we're actually

33:31

able to hook up, you know, I'm, I'm now

33:33

a medical director of Stella. We have 35

33:35

sites in United States, other countries,

33:38

locations. So I think we

33:40

are well on our way to bypass this

33:43

poor gentleman's thing and I

33:45

think we'll have a significant impact.

33:48

So that's kinda my answer to

33:49

that. Uh, no, I love it. That's, and that's very

33:52

positive cuz that's, you know, so.

33:56

Evolution into the future. I mean, just continue

33:58

to spread the word, get, get the,

34:01

um, get it through the trials.

34:03

I mean, obviously there's some element of the medical establishment

34:05

who Of course, well, we're not getting right.

34:07

Like, hold on.

34:08

If

34:09

I, if I may, uh, Jamie, I'm sorry. Yeah.

34:11

Are, are you asking what's gonna happen? What's gonna

34:13

happen in our future? Is that your question? Yeah,

34:15

that's where I'm going

34:16

with my brand. Ok.

34:17

Lemme gimme you an answer. Gimme an answer.

34:19

I'm kinda a dreamer,

34:20

right? And then I wanna comment on this one.

34:23

Okay? Of course. But I, I think you wanna

34:25

hear what I'm gonna put in the, in my dream here, first, second.

34:27

Okay. Okay. Yeah. So, number one,

34:29

we're gonna treat a lot more people. Number two, hopefully

34:32

our book is success and more people will become more

34:34

cognizant of this. Number three,

34:37

I just got IRB approval, like

34:39

for a real, for real study.

34:42

Uh, so my collaborator is ucla. University.

34:47

So I believe in about a year we'll

34:49

be able to prove pretty definitively that

34:52

you can reverse aging by

34:54

using this procedure. Lemme

34:56

tell what I mean by that

34:58

and how you can approve it. So if you

35:00

look at the aging speed of

35:02

Special forces, they age quicker

35:04

than people who are not involved in this horrible battle,

35:07

right? You can measure that if

35:09

you look up something called Grim Age. It's

35:13

a term for epigenetic clocks

35:15

was designed with Dr. Harth originally, regardless,

35:17

so you can take my word for it. There is a

35:20

way to be able to tell how fast

35:22

somebody is aging, okay? The reason you want

35:24

to know that is because if you are aging

35:26

faster than normal, you're going to die

35:29

sooner. You can actually predict people's

35:31

death by epigenetic clock. I

35:34

believe our treatment reverses

35:37

epi epigenetic clock's advancement. So

35:39

that's kind of, I think, a near term future. Go

35:42

ahead, Jamie. What I, you know

35:44

what I would like to say, and one of the reasons why I

35:46

was incredibly excited about being on this show,

35:48

because it's different than any other show we're doing

35:51

in the sense that it's, it's kind

35:53

of effect, it's, it's discussing

35:55

advancements in life sciences

35:57

through a business lens. Mm-hmm.

36:00

Right? And it takes, it requires business

36:03

to propagate something on a wide

36:05

scale. You know, uh, in

36:07

my, in, and I, and I told, uh,

36:10

Dr. Lippa when we first met, that, uh,

36:12

I'm not altruistic. I,

36:14

I saw what this was and how important it

36:16

was. Uh, and that,

36:19

you know, in certain ways serves me. As

36:22

an artist, you know, if you're gonna be an artist and you want

36:24

to, you have to decide what you're gonna work on. Uh,

36:26

are you gonna work on this thing that's important, that

36:28

has ramifications all over the world, or are you just

36:31

gonna go work on a pretty picture? Right.

36:33

So it wasn't really altruistic for me,

36:35

but was what was the deciding factor.

36:37

And, and this kind of goes to the, your show, Kelly. And

36:41

was the deciding factor in terms of my decision

36:43

to kind of not do other work and focus

36:46

on this is the fact is around

36:48

three and a half years ago, about a year and a half

36:50

or two years before I met, uh, Dr.

36:52

Loff, um, he

36:55

met, he teamed up with, uh,

36:57

Sterling Partners, a multi-billion

36:59

dollar private equity firm in

37:01

uh, uh, Chicago to open

37:04

up the Stella Center. To open up these clinics

37:06

all over the United States. These are the only

37:08

clinics in the world that have the,

37:10

that have the, all of the protocols that

37:12

Dr. Loff has. Um, uh,

37:16

Uh, you know, made this 85 to 90%

37:18

effective in the permanent relief of post-traumatic stress.

37:21

His, uh, um, so

37:24

if you wanna get this done, you don't just go and

37:26

get the deal, you know, you don't just go get this anywhere,

37:29

you should go to Astella Center. It

37:31

lasts longer and it's far more efficacious.

37:34

When I had my first conversation talking to

37:36

Daniel Aon about this, um,

37:39

he was very leery. And I, and I said,

37:41

Daniel, you know, I really would just like you to look at the research

37:44

and then if you tell me if I'm full of crap, And

37:47

we were on a Zoom call and, and

37:49

he was, and he said, hold on. He started looking,

37:51

his mouth kind of fell open as he was talking to me. Mm-hmm.

37:53

And he didn't even want to be on that call. And

37:56

now he's our partner. He, okay.

37:59

Uh, he said, oh my, wow. And

38:01

I said what he said, uh, Jamie,

38:04

this is, uh, there's a very credible study here that

38:06

says this is 70% effective in

38:08

the permanent re relief of, of most extreme

38:10

post-traumatic stress syndromes. And

38:13

I said, uh, that's an old paper's 10 years old. We're at

38:15

85 or 90 now with the modern Stella

38:17

protocols. Okay. Yeah. Nice.

38:19

And Daniel Amon said to me, the most famous psychiatrist

38:22

in America, who's the, who's been the leader

38:24

of saying that mental wellness

38:27

is biological and far

38:29

less mentally and disorder.

38:32

And amorphous and unscientific

38:34

than we think. And the data science.

38:36

He's got over 200,000 brain scans in the last

38:38

scans, which is a massive data set in

38:40

the last 10 years. Uh, the data

38:43

science has really proven him right? He

38:45

looks at me through the Zoom and he says, Jamie, I

38:47

said, it's 85%. He said it was the set.

38:49

He said, 70. He said, Jamie,

38:51

you don't understand. It's 70%. This

38:54

wins the Nobel Prize. That's

38:56

what we've come across here. I'll help you. And

38:58

that started off, you know, a yearlong

39:00

pro, uh, pro, you know, a two year partnership

39:03

where he was, we were scanning

39:05

our patients, the name clinics, treating them with the d

39:07

sr over one to two days and scanning them less than

39:10

24 hours later. And what we saw

39:12

with the forensic psychiatrists, uh,

39:14

saw on those brain scans after two days would be

39:16

something you would see equivalent to six months of hyperbaric.

39:20

Right? So, um, So

39:23

I'd like, so that's, you know, one thing, one of the things I would

39:25

love for Dr. Lippo to comment

39:28

on, you know, one of the things people often ask

39:30

me about when we're talking about this book, the

39:32

Invisible Machine, which is bringing

39:34

this to pop culture, that's

39:36

my contribution using

39:38

it's science. It's a pop science

39:40

book, like something Carl Sagan would

39:42

do, or, or the China study

39:45

or, you know, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a science

39:47

book that everyone can read. What's

39:50

the point of keeping, uh, science

39:52

from the masses, right? That we're, we're trying

39:54

to bring science to the masses. Um,

39:56

but one of the things that we talk about extensively

39:59

in the book, and I would love for Dr. Leba to

40:01

comment on this because this is one of the

40:03

things that I'm probably most fascinated

40:05

with, is, okay, so you have this book, the Body

40:07

keeps the score. All right, well, how does the body

40:09

keep the score if we're damaging the body

40:12

through trauma? Even if no one touches

40:14

you. What is happening

40:16

in the body? What's, what's the, you know, what's,

40:18

who's keeping score, what's, what's doing the damage?

40:21

So one of the things that I would love for Dr.

40:23

Lippa to comment on is why

40:26

does having an overreactive

40:28

sympathetic nervous system stuck in fight or

40:30

flight for year, a year,

40:33

10 years, 20 years,

40:35

what exactly does that

40:37

do to the body? Does it affect, is

40:40

it giving us cancer? Is it giving us autoimmune

40:42

disease? Is it, you know, what

40:44

is, is there a health threat? Is it giving

40:47

us orthopedic problems? Is there,

40:49

what are the pH physical consequences

40:51

of living for 10 years

40:54

with an overactive sympathetic nervous system?

40:56

Okay, so that, that, that's a very reasonable

40:59

question. I think there is, it's a broad,

41:01

it's a very broad question. So

41:03

first of all, what's interesting is P T S

41:05

D is heritable meaning, If

41:08

you have a grandfather that was involved World War

41:10

ii, the

41:13

chance of the grandchild, grand

41:15

daughter having ptsd, T S D

41:17

is significantly higher compared to someone who doesn't have

41:20

that type of grandfather, which is, to me is mind

41:22

blowing. So the whole thing about epigenetic

41:25

drift that we talked about, that's

41:27

all from trauma, but it also

41:29

has a mental change. So

41:31

it is well known that somebody has

41:34

P T S D. Their chance of heart attack

41:36

is twice as high compared to ptsi post-traumatic

41:38

stress injury. Right. I'm

41:41

using, thank you. I appreciate it. Ok. Okay. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Ptsi,

41:43

somebody has ptsi that

41:45

chance of developing cardiovascular

41:48

problems significantly higher. Turns

41:50

out that overactive sympathetic

41:53

system over

41:55

disregulates immune

41:57

system. So that means the chance

42:00

of. Number of immune related

42:02

disorders like ulcerative colitis and

42:04

things like that can happen. What about cancer?

42:07

I'm, could you mind giving a second? Oh yes.

42:09

Sure. Man, doctor? Yes.

42:11

Alright, I'll shut up. Thank. We're

42:14

like Martin, I,

42:16

I all Awesome. Let the man talk.

42:18

Okay. Anyway,

42:19

thank

42:20

you. Thank

42:20

you, thank you. Anyway, so what happens? The

42:23

reason people do not develop cancer cancerous

42:25

cells happen all the time and all of us. But

42:28

we have scavenging system, which is an immune system

42:30

that kills the cancers. If

42:33

the immune system is being suppressed

42:36

by overactive sympathetic system,

42:38

then the cancers can take root

42:40

and grow right further.

42:43

When somebody has P T S I,

42:46

their norepinephrine levels in the brain

42:49

increase, that's that's been measured in human beings,

42:51

no question. So

42:53

if the, I wrote a chapter about sexual

42:56

in impact or P T S

42:58

I turns out, um,

43:01

norepinephrine, they could be three levels

43:03

low. There's no sexual interest, optimal

43:07

grade sexual interest, too much,

43:09

no sexual interest. They actually

43:11

too much norepinephrine, suppressive sexual

43:13

interest, illicit males and sexual function. Up

43:16

to 85% of men with P

43:18

T S I or P T S D have

43:20

sexual dysfunction. So

43:23

if you put it all together, then

43:25

the other thing we know is P T S

43:27

I alt,

43:29

uh, alter sleep cycles markedly.

43:33

So DSR actually reverses that. What's

43:35

interesting, the recent data shows

43:37

that when somebody has a

43:39

bad sleep, that

43:42

leads to, um,

43:45

other problems, high blood pressure,

43:47

other things early death. But

43:50

what's also interesting, turns out that

43:53

during, there are five stages of sleep. Deep

43:56

sleep is one of the stages. The

43:58

most important part of sleep is deep sleep, because

44:01

turns out what it does, that's one of the poisons

44:04

which are developed during the day. It gets cleared

44:06

out the brain. If you don't have, you

44:08

never get a deep sleep. The poisons

44:10

truly stay in the brain, and that's not

44:13

good for the brain leads to increased chance

44:15

of dementia and other things. So in in

44:17

summary, Overactive sympathetic

44:20

system produces cardiovascular

44:22

effects. Immune function, no likely

44:25

increases. Cancerous, definitely

44:28

produces sexual dysfunction, definitely

44:31

produces sleep dysfunction. Just

44:34

a few things. Probably more.

44:39

No, no. And, and we're, uh, we're,

44:41

we're running a bit on time here, so we'll have

44:43

to start to bring this to a close. Unfortunately.

44:45

I'd love to keep going, but again, I

44:47

just wanna come back to this idea of,

44:50

uh, you know, the holistic. Approach

44:52

and how getting this out of the

44:54

shadows, as you guys have described, um,

44:56

bringing it more mainstream. You know,

44:58

Jamie, I, not that I

45:00

ever love anyone's trauma, but I love

45:03

your story of overcoming that and then bringing this

45:05

all together and, and really starting

45:07

to use that as a platform, um,

45:09

going forward to, to try to, to bring

45:11

some realistic. You know, and holistic

45:13

change to, I was just sitting here thinking

45:15

about different friends and some of the issues I

45:18

know they're experiencing physically.

45:20

And I have a friend in chronic pain and,

45:22

and I, she has a similar

45:25

growing up story to yours, so I'm definitely gonna

45:27

send her your direction, um,

45:29

from a, uh, to check out the book and, and hopefully,

45:32

um, thank you. Maybe look around and

45:34

see what we can do to, to continue to bring

45:36

that forward. Um, I guess last

45:38

quick question and there's gotta be quick answers.

45:41

Um, If you could

45:43

go back in time, if

45:46

you could go back in time and tell yourself something

45:48

at the beginning of, of your career,

45:51

what would you tell yourself, Jamie? Wow.

45:56

I know. Quick answer.

45:58

Okay.

45:59

Uh, quick answer is, the reason

46:02

I was in the position to see this in a more

46:04

broad way is because I went from

46:06

extreme poverty and semi literacy to.

46:10

Graduating from, you know,

46:12

a data school, the Stolen School of Economics

46:14

in just over five years. So I went

46:16

from one extreme to another, you know,

46:18

the poorest people in the world, the worst circumstances

46:20

in the world to the

46:22

wealthiest people in the world in a very short period

46:25

of time. Uh, I, I would, what,

46:27

what I would tell myself is, uh,

46:30

is, uh, it's

46:33

biological. It's a broken leg.

46:35

You can't see the, the, the mental condition

46:38

like I would've started with. What's

46:40

wrong with us is physical

46:42

damage to our bodies that we can now, that's

46:44

now completely fixable. There's no reason to live

46:46

like that. And there's a thing called, the Last

46:48

Quest thing I'll say is a thing called operator syndrome,

46:51

which people get from having distress of war,

46:53

even if they're never in a firefight. It's

46:55

identical to what you'd have if you grew up in poverty.

46:57

And there's a cascade of physical effects that

46:59

come from it, from orthoped problems, chronic pain,

47:02

whatever. So I would be only looking

47:04

at biology. That's what I would be doing,

47:06

not going down a rabbit hole of self-help

47:09

and other things that I did in my life. Yeah. Gotcha.

47:11

Gotcha. Thanks for that Dr. Lip off, how

47:13

about you? What would you tell yourself if you could go back in

47:15

time? Um,

47:17

I would say state. My

47:19

brother calls me BB Brother Bulldog

47:22

because I'm one persistent individual.

47:25

Yeah. And that basically

47:27

be persistent and follow

47:30

the signs where it goes and help the people,

47:32

which is, I've tried to live, both

47:34

of my parents were physicians, my brothers are physicians,

47:36

so I honor my

47:38

parents', uh, memories, especially

47:41

my mother's kill herself. And

47:43

just keep doing what

47:45

you're doing and help as many people as you can.

47:48

Hopefully everything else will work out. I

47:51

love that.

47:52

I think, uh, I think we're gonna have to talk about

47:54

maybe a part two. We'll have to revisit some

47:56

of these conversations and see where you guys have made it forward.

47:59

I would love it. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you so

48:02

much for joining us.

48:03

This was an amazing, amazing interview. Kelly.

48:05

Thank you. Really, really, thank you

48:07

so much.