0:00

On today's episode of the podcast,

0:02

I talk about the dark side

0:04

of social media after

0:07

sharing with the world that I am no longer vegan.

0:09

I ended up having a fairly dramatic

0:11

week where I was on the receiving end of

0:13

a lot of shame and bullying

0:16

and hatred. So I

0:18

unpack a lot of that. I answer

0:21

tons of questions about my own

0:23

non vegan journey and where I am today.

0:26

And I go deeper into the question,

0:29

can we shame a person

0:31

into changing their behavior. Is

0:34

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0:37

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2:03

Hello.

2:08

My darlings, my friend welcome

2:11

back to

2:11

the show.

2:14

Wow.

2:17

I just have no other

2:19

words at the moment, then

2:22

wow. It's

2:24

been a really truly

2:26

interesting. Interesting

2:28

is probably the best word I can use for

2:30

it. It's

2:30

been a very interesting, interesting

2:32

past week. If

2:34

you didn't tune in

2:36

to last week's show, which

2:39

I'm kind of thinking that you did It's

2:41

one of the most listened to episodes

2:44

in a long time. Thank

2:46

you for that, everyone. Just giving

2:49

this podcast a super I

2:51

I so so appreciate it.

2:54

If you didn't hear last week's podcast,

2:56

I shared the big surprising,

2:59

shocking world news. Very important,

3:02

super important news to many, many

3:04

people apparently. that

3:07

I am no longer vegan. And

3:11

when I recorded that episode, I

3:13

shared on the episode too that I was kind

3:15

of I had been thinking for a while about

3:17

how to share and how should I go about it?

3:19

And and then last week, I just

3:21

woke up in the morning and I was like, no. You know what?

3:24

Like, I'm just gonna sit down and

3:25

talk you know, and speak from the heart

3:27

and share. So

3:29

I did, you know, so I didn't have

3:31

really a I didn't have any strategy.

3:34

I wasn't trying to defend

3:36

myself or make a certain

3:38

point or, you know, I had no idea

3:41

of an outcome I wanted out of that episode

3:44

other than just speaking my truth and

3:46

just sharing this change I've made in my

3:48

life. Right?

3:50

And it's been

3:52

received

3:55

and very unrejected

3:58

both at the same time.

3:59

I'm always because I I kind of I

4:02

don't know if it's maybe once a year

4:04

I feel like it's been a while since I had some

4:06

drama. I mean, I live a very drama

4:09

free life these days. My

4:11

life is is very

4:11

different these days from what it used to be.

4:14

I have a lot less

4:17

going on compared than before. I

4:19

have a lot just

4:21

traveling less. I'm not

4:24

barely working, you know, at this

4:26

point. Like, I have very I

4:28

have a much smaller life now, you

4:30

know, a much much more content

4:32

and smaller life, which

4:34

I'm I'm really happy with. So

4:36

I also have less drama. Right? But

4:38

before, I think at least once a

4:40

year, I would go through this kind of cycle

4:42

of, I would share

4:44

something or stand

4:46

up for something or do

4:49

something online, you

4:51

know, that would generate this massive

4:53

response and this kind of little

4:55

drama vortex. I

4:58

am really good. Like, this I can fully

5:00

hold and totally own I'm

5:02

very good at creating

5:05

drama vortexes when I want to.

5:07

Like, when I feel open

5:09

to it and ready for it. And

5:13

and I'm also, you know,

5:15

a little bit of a drama magnet way

5:18

less now than I have been in the past, but

5:21

I'm pretty sure, you know, my sagittarius rising.

5:24

I I can't not

5:25

speak the truth.

5:27

Whenever I've

5:28

had Debra, one of

5:30

my

5:30

astrologers here on the show, we've talked about

5:32

that a lot. Like, the sagittarius

5:35

rising, complete inability to

5:38

shut up, like complete inability

5:41

to not stand up really tall and shout

5:43

the truth if there's a truth that needs to

5:45

come out. And

5:48

sometimes I do that to my own detriment,

5:50

you know. because I I

5:52

really I really don't enjoy

5:54

the drama. I really don't

5:57

enjoy Like, there's nothing

5:59

nothing if

5:59

this this aspect of getting hate

6:02

and thousands of comments

6:04

and people being up Like, I don't at all enjoy

6:07

that. You know, actually, I am a person that

6:09

deep down. I really wanna be liked.

6:11

I really wanna be loved. I really wanna

6:13

be supportive. supported. I

6:15

don't have that in your need to walk

6:17

around, you know, with friction all the

6:19

time at all. you

6:21

know, the thing I seek most in life truly

6:23

is peace. Yet,

6:27

whenever there is something

6:29

that I need to say, even when I

6:31

know. And this happens to

6:33

me, you know, all the time. Even when I

6:35

know, this is gonna start something.

6:38

Like, people are gonna reject this. People

6:40

are not gonna agree. Like,

6:42

every time I open the debate

6:45

of you know, abortion,

6:47

for example. Like, this is a really good example,

6:49

which I know Swedish people have

6:51

a really hard time understanding. like

6:54

in Sweden, abortion has been not

6:56

only legal for so

6:58

many decades, but completely normalized

7:01

and de stigmatized and

7:03

you know, it's a part of healthcare

7:06

here. Nothing else. Like, literally,

7:09

any of my any of

7:11

my siblings could have at

7:13

any moment of their lives wanted

7:15

to get an abortion, you know, even as teenagers

7:18

and would have been able to tell our

7:20

parents. and probably our

7:22

parents would have gone, you know, like if I wanted

7:24

an abortion and I was in my teens,

7:26

I could have told my mom she would have gone with me

7:28

to hold my hand. You know, it's not

7:31

stigmatized horrible things. So in Sweden,

7:33

we have a really hard time even

7:35

wrapping our heads around that

7:37

in the US and Poland and

7:39

other places. They are denying

7:42

people this basic human right of health

7:44

care. But so oftentimes,

7:47

like whenever something happens, right,

7:49

something's in the news, rosy

7:52

wade, you know, and I will

7:54

bring that conversation back. And

7:57

I know like, I always have a moment before

7:59

I kind of dive into

8:01

the conversation publicly. Like, this

8:03

is bullshit. Like, I can't believe this is

8:05

happening. Fuck the system. I

8:07

I before I say everything,

8:09

I really wanna say, I know. Like,

8:11

okay. Well, this means that for the rest of the

8:13

day, I am gonna be

8:15

battling anti abortion

8:18

people and pro forced

8:20

pregnancy people in my DMs

8:22

all day. Like, I know. I know that that's gonna

8:24

happen. people get so

8:26

unbelievably triggered. It's like a

8:28

huge, I mean, very polarizing,

8:31

dividing, divisive thing.

8:33

And I know that. And I know it's gonna mean that for the

8:35

rest of my day, I'm gonna be

8:37

involved in in drama and discussion and fighting.

8:39

And I'm gonna get people telling

8:41

me horrible things, crazy things

8:43

because people on the Internet are

8:45

crazy. I I really

8:47

do believe that people who are not crazy

8:50

in real life. People act crazy

8:52

on the Internet. People become completely

8:54

boundary less on the Internet. I mean, we

8:56

know this. and still I

8:58

share. Right? Like, I

9:00

really have that inner side of me

9:02

that's like, I can't not have

9:04

the truth. out there. I can't

9:06

not speak my truth. I can't not

9:08

fight for what I believe is right.

9:10

Even if, you know, it's to my detriment. Even

9:12

if at the end of that, I am in trouble.

9:15

you know, this is just what it is. So

9:17

I'm very used to, you know, over

9:20

the years, especially having been on social

9:22

media for a long time. I'm very used

9:24

to speak my mind, voicing

9:26

my opinion. I

9:29

know, I mean, I know especially in

9:31

the yoga community. I am definitely

9:34

not the most loved and

9:36

liked, like, yoga

9:38

influencer person out there. For sure

9:40

not. Every time I've seen something

9:42

that, like, this doesn't right with me, you know,

9:44

I've I've shared that. And

9:46

when I do, here's the here's

9:48

the thing, like, whenever I have and whenever

9:51

I do, I criticize

9:53

the system. I criticize

9:56

politicians or policy that

9:58

people are pushing through.

9:59

I criticize corporations a

10:02

lot, injustice, never

10:05

in a million years. And this

10:07

is like, I cannot wrap

10:09

my head around this. Never in

10:11

a million years would it

10:12

ever occur to me

10:15

to personally attack a

10:18

single human being, like, regardless of

10:20

what that person had done.

10:22

Like, I would never, you know, IIIII

10:25

was trying to think of, like, that is an hour just at

10:27

breakfast this morning. Like,

10:29

what would a person, a single

10:31

person a regular human walking the street

10:33

just like any of us. What would they have to do

10:36

for

10:36

me to get really

10:39

vicious and individually

10:40

boldly them on a

10:43

big online platform. Like, that would

10:45

never it would never occurred to

10:47

me. Like, I would never even have the instinct or

10:49

the inclination to

10:51

do that. And then then the study's,

10:53

like, I don't know, maybe it's, like, island mentality.

10:55

You know, like, we've been living for so

10:57

long in a place where everybody knows

10:59

everybody you would never talk shit about people like

11:01

that because everything comes around.

11:03

And I'm like, that's

11:03

not even it. Like, the reason you

11:05

and I don't talk shit about people

11:07

is not because it might come

11:09

back around. It's like, well, you don't we're just not those

11:12

people. Like, it's just it takes a

11:14

different kind of person to

11:16

to bully. Like, it really,

11:18

really, really does.

11:20

And I'm sharing this now,

11:23

just having having

11:25

experienced an un

11:27

unbelievable amount

11:29

of hatred

11:32

over the past couple of days, including

11:35

just a really vile

11:37

woman who spent

11:39

so much time. Like, I'm not I'm honestly

11:42

flattered by this. Like, I

11:44

it's it's it's it was very

11:46

intense. Like, spent so much time,

11:48

not only listening to last week's

11:50

podcast, really

11:52

listening, taking notes as I

11:54

was speaking, and then making

11:56

a satirical, like, very

11:59

vicious, like totally

11:59

bullying, really

12:01

long video for TikTok. like,

12:03

an edit it. Like, she spent time here. She put

12:06

up her little ring light.

12:07

She

12:09

was looking at her notes from the podcast.

12:12

you know, making fun of me,

12:14

mimicking me, saying things,

12:15

like, they were similar to what I said on the

12:17

show. Like, the dedication here

12:20

is I I'm honestly impressed.

12:22

Like, I Whoa. It's

12:24

it's and when I saw that last night,

12:26

I I laughed so

12:27

hard I almost

12:29

keep my hands a little bit. Like, I've my

12:31

first first reaction was, like,

12:33

oh my god. People

12:35

have really lost it. Like, the

12:37

length that people will go is wild.

12:40

And then the more I sit with it,

12:42

it's like, to me, it's just I it's

12:45

just so far away from any kind of

12:47

behavior that I would ever

12:49

engage in. And from, you know, any of my friends

12:51

or people my

12:53

community people that I know. I don't know anyone

12:56

who acts like this. Like, I just

12:58

don't. It's just not in my

13:00

wheelhouse at all. So

13:02

it's also hard for me to kind of yeah.

13:06

It's hard. I'm I always try to get

13:08

to the root of something, you know, like,

13:10

can

13:10

I understand this? Can I can

13:13

I get to their point of view? Can I put

13:15

myself in their shoes? But in these with this

13:17

kind of behavior, I really can't. I

13:19

really, definitely, definitely can't.

13:21

And just

13:24

for this for this

13:26

show today, I wanna I'm gonna

13:28

answer some questions that I didn't answer

13:30

last week, that I didn't even bring up

13:32

last week because as I said,

13:34

I just I just sat down

13:36

and spoke from the heart like that was

13:38

what that was. It's also

13:40

hard to cover every area of

13:42

such a big discussion in just an hour

13:44

pod. You know? But,

13:46

yeah, I'm gonna answer some of those

13:48

questions. And I

13:50

wanna, like, really touch

13:52

on or I really wanna get

13:54

into, like, this

13:56

kind of behavior that we are seeing from

13:58

so many people

13:59

particularly in the vegan

14:02

community. I don't know any other

14:04

community of of people or any

14:06

other movement where there is this

14:08

much viciousness that comes out of

14:10

people. And

14:13

I, you know,

14:15

that's why I prefaced

14:17

last week's podcast by

14:19

saying, like, giving a

14:21

moment. Like, hey. Like, as you listen to

14:23

this show, like, take a breath, you

14:25

know, offering people an opportunity to

14:27

ground into themselves really saying,

14:29

like, I can set a boundary here where I

14:31

ask you not to,

14:34

like, For instance, tell me

14:36

I deserve to get raped because

14:38

I've had some raw dairy. Those

14:40

were real comments that I

14:42

have received. I mean, I should

14:44

die. I'm a merge. I haven't

14:46

even talked about and I haven't shared The

14:48

only thing I've shared that I've been eating is, like, I've

14:51

shared that I've had some egg and some raw dairy.

14:53

Like, I've been, you know, and I

14:55

wanna talk about that also, you know, but I

14:57

haven't even gotten into anything

14:59

around around detail. But I am

15:01

an abuser, a murderer. Why

15:03

don't I go eat my dog? I

15:06

deserve to get raped. I should

15:08

die. it it's

15:10

so fucking intense.

15:12

I mean, it's really. And

15:15

I know most people listening are just like

15:17

nodding along because you know Like,

15:20

when I was vegan, I knew

15:22

about this behavior. We used to joke about this

15:24

all the time. I mean, all the time,

15:26

it's like a standing joke in our family

15:28

that, like, Well, the vegans are

15:30

crazy because we all fucking know that

15:32

so many are not everyone. Of course not.

15:34

There's no such thing as everyone. But

15:37

so many especially vegan

15:39

people who are hiding behind a screen

15:41

name online.

15:42

There's this

15:44

mob mentality that happens,

15:46

and it happens in this specific community in

15:48

a way that I think is incomparable

15:50

to any other thing. Like, there's

15:52

no other cause

15:54

or issue or anything that people are

15:56

fighting for where it gets this

15:59

vicious.

16:00

and And You

16:01

see it all the time. You

16:04

see it all the time. Anytime

16:06

anyone who's been vegan

16:08

changes their diet, even a tiny

16:10

little bit, that person deserves to go

16:12

to hell. It's it's

16:14

never like like there's

16:17

a a human place there.

16:19

You know, there's never a great area. There's never

16:21

it's it's it's it's it's it's it's all or nothing.

16:23

It's, you know, be a hundred percent

16:25

vegan fight for the vegan cause

16:27

or go to hell. Like, there's,

16:29

like, there's no understanding

16:31

or opening there to to,

16:33

yeah, to to try to picture

16:35

yourself in the other person's shoes, not at

16:37

all. And of

16:39

course, I also had many people. And for

16:41

this, I thank you so so much. I

16:43

don't wanna generalize and say every single

16:45

person. What I'm talking about now is particularly

16:48

this type of person

16:50

that will, yeah, that will spend

16:52

seventy two hours in someone's

16:54

comment feed just to tear

16:56

them down. like people

16:58

who live on

17:00

Reddit or these really

17:02

crazy gossip. You know, there's

17:04

like gossip sites for influencers,

17:07

where people spend all

17:10

day, all day in threads,

17:12

just paving

17:14

on a single person.

17:16

Like,

17:16

that's what they do. Like, I'm like,

17:19

how how does

17:21

one even find their way to that kind of a

17:23

platform. Like, what are you doing with your

17:25

life? Like, I'm

17:27

just baffled. but

17:29

also, of course, there's many

17:32

people who are in the vegan community,

17:34

who eat plant based, who

17:36

first of all don't care. there's

17:39

a big group of people just like that who

17:41

don't care. Maybe they care a

17:43

little bit and like, yeah. Well, you know, I really

17:45

think vegan is the best way, but you do you.

17:47

that's your life. Like, I literally are

17:50

just baffled. Like, why is this such a big

17:52

thing? It's your life. You do what you

17:54

wanna do.

17:55

And then I've had messages from people who are just completely

17:57

supportive, just one hundred percent.

17:59

Like,

17:59

you know, you should totally listen to

18:02

your own body I am

18:04

vegan for me, for my personal

18:06

reasons, but everyone lives a different

18:08

life. And I will always

18:10

support you, and thank you for sharing your

18:12

story, and just like a lot of a lot

18:14

of support. Of course, there is those people out

18:16

there. And I wanna say, if

18:18

you're listening, thank you. Like,

18:20

If you're vegan and you were upset and you said

18:22

nothing, thank you for being able to

18:24

manage your own emotions and

18:26

hold that container of your own

18:28

heart space and not yeah, not

18:30

have to try to cause any

18:33

drama or negativity from that. Like

18:35

that, it takes a basic

18:37

level of maturity to do that, and

18:39

I wanna honor that for a moment.

18:41

So just thank you. And

18:43

if you shared any kind of support or anything

18:45

neutral or just, like, had a

18:47

discussion with me, which I had with

18:49

so many people in my DM's just

18:51

about why? And how did I get to this place?

18:53

And like so many people who

18:55

wrote me in a normal

18:58

way. in in a doesn't

19:00

even have to be, like, a loving or a kind way.

19:02

It's just like a neutral place. Like, hey,

19:04

I'm curious. Like, how did you get to this place? Like,

19:06

can we talk about this? Or Can you

19:08

answer me this one question? Like, I've had nonstop

19:12

discussions with people like

19:14

that. but then the people

19:16

who think that I I should, you

19:18

know, I'm the worst person in the

19:20

whole entire world and they're spending

19:22

hours and hours just thinking of the worst

19:25

possible things to say to me and going into

19:27

really, like, personal attack

19:29

and talking about my family and

19:31

talking about my life

19:34

and it's like of

19:36

course not. Of course, I'm not gonna engage

19:39

with you. Like, are you like, what planet do you live? Like, you think you

19:41

think you're gonna write me a DM like

19:43

that, and then we're gonna have a sensible

19:45

conversation. No. I

19:47

haven't engaged with or answered any person

19:50

who's written things like that.

19:54

And the first,

19:56

like, when I shared last week,

19:58

it was the

19:59

response I received was just

20:02

so overwhelmingly

20:03

positive. in the beginning. It was really I

20:05

even could do a little screen recording

20:07

of every single comment that I had.

20:09

Like, the first hundreds of comments

20:11

that were there We're

20:13

positive. We're just so many

20:15

people out there have also shed this label. So

20:17

many people are looking for their own

20:20

personal freedom to make their

20:22

choices people who've struggled with health

20:24

issues being vegan. I mean, there's a lot

20:27

of ton

20:27

of support there. And

20:28

I was so

20:31

prised by that because I really what I expected

20:33

is what happened later. Like, that was my

20:35

expectations. So I was so heavily surprised

20:37

Like, it's a little dentist.

20:40

I was like, hey. Like, it's been a couple

20:42

hours. It's all positive.

20:44

Like, it's really Yeah.

20:47

Even one of my best friends was like, I am so

20:49

proud of this whole community.

20:51

Like, everyone has just really matured

20:54

and kind of grown up. Like, it's a lot of years. We've been doing

20:56

this online. Of course, people mature and grow up. And

20:58

a lot a lot of us have.

21:00

But then then they said,

21:02

he's like, hey, you just just wait, California

21:05

vegans haven't even woken up up,oken

21:07

up yet. Like, they're still

21:10

they're on Pacific type. Like, they're still

21:12

sleeping and I'm like, oh, don't

21:14

don't jinx it. Please.

21:16

Don't jinx it. But was

21:19

he was he was he right?

21:22

Holy holy moly. And

21:24

I think I spent I don't

21:26

know. a cup like a

21:28

minute maybe in the comment section when it turned really

21:30

vicious, and then I left.

21:35

And I don't know. Sometimes when things get really nasty

21:37

in my comment section, I turn it

21:39

off, especially if it's a big

21:41

topic that if it's a topic that's

21:43

bigger than me, in

21:45

a sense, like whenever we speak about racism

21:48

or whenever there's a risk

21:50

that there is a person who might be berated

21:52

in the comment section or harmed

21:54

and I have a hard time moderating

21:56

that. In those cases, I would be in the

21:58

comment section and reading everything and

22:00

making sure that no one's being an

22:02

asshole, you know, or being harmful.

22:04

But in this case, it's just everything.

22:06

It's just it's just

22:08

it's just the vegans.

22:11

against me. So

22:14

so I just I left the comments

22:17

on.

22:17

Yeah. And

22:19

and there they are, you know. And if I go

22:21

to if I would go to my little notification

22:24

section of of Instagram now, it's

22:26

it's all back

22:28

and forth, back and forth,

22:30

commentary of the most,

22:32

like, vile things. Like, it's stuff, like, you you just

22:34

it's like you get nightmares reading it, it's it's

22:36

totally insane. And the

22:39

really sad part about this aside from,

22:41

you know, putting my putting myself

22:43

site. Like, I'm a big girl. I can handle it.

22:45

Probably talk about it another podcast like

22:47

how I manage my

22:50

own emotional space and how I resource

22:52

myself because, of course, no

22:54

matter how steady you

22:56

are, it's it's an

22:58

experience to be on the receiving

23:00

end of this much hate no

23:02

matter, you know, how strongly you feel about your

23:04

own opinion. It's a journey.

23:06

Absolutely. I'm not unaffected by

23:08

it. But putting myself

23:11

aside, I think

23:13

it's so sad

23:16

that this is what happens

23:18

in this community. I really,

23:21

really feel a sadness that

23:23

this is the way that

23:25

people go about this. And even when

23:27

I was vegan, I used I was so ashamed

23:30

of this it all the time,

23:32

especially on Instagram, YouTube.

23:35

I mean, there's just

23:36

for for

23:38

a movement that's really supposed to

23:40

be about loving kindness and having

23:43

that include all beings. It's

23:45

really interesting to me that that's

23:47

the community where you see more hatred

23:50

than you do anywhere, anywhere

23:53

else. Like, those

23:55

really act of trolling vegans

23:57

have an ability to completely

23:59

tear

23:59

someone apart

24:01

and not even think twice about

24:03

it, not even feel bad about it.

24:06

because it's kind of like the

24:08

cause justifies you

24:10

know, the end justifies all means.

24:13

And end that they're trying to

24:15

get to, of course, is for the whole entire world to be

24:17

vegan. But the only thing that happens and

24:19

that this is the thing that brings me so much

24:21

sadness is that it repels

24:23

people so many people,

24:25

I had I've screenshotted these comments

24:27

because I I it's just it's

24:29

such heartfelt, you know,

24:31

eye opening proof. so

24:34

many people ever in me, like, just after

24:36

reading this, this makes me

24:38

wanna separate from veganism. Like,

24:40

this makes me not wanna be a part of

24:42

this community. this makes me never wanna put that

24:44

label. Like, I would never wanna wear that

24:46

hat. Like, if this is what this is what you

24:48

get, this is what happens, or these are the

24:50

kinds of people you have to or

24:52

this is the behavior you have to associate

24:55

with. That's the thing I'm sure, a

24:58

majority, not all. Of course, there's

25:00

real, like, vial people out

25:02

there too, but

25:04

majority of people who are writing these

25:06

really intense things. I'm sure they're

25:08

pretty good people in real life.

25:10

I'm sure they have some sort of they

25:13

have an intention there of of wanting

25:15

to be kind and

25:17

wanting animals to not suffer, and

25:19

I'm sure they have friends and

25:21

families and they're, like, probably, like,

25:23

pretty good people, like, okay people

25:25

in regular life. Something happens

25:28

when you completely lose the

25:31

accountability of being in a room with

25:33

someone. Something happens to a person

25:35

where you can hide behind your

25:37

screen, and there's no consequence

25:40

to anything you say, where you can

25:42

completely dehumanize another

25:44

person. Like, I don't think yeah,

25:46

for someone to write to me that

25:48

I should be

25:48

raped. Like, they they

25:50

there's no way that they're in

25:52

touch with my humanity or their own. Like,

25:54

no way. No. You can speak like that to

25:56

another person and and still

25:58

have that have that connection.

26:00

No no way. And that is

26:02

only made possible because

26:05

of social media because of these screens,

26:07

because you can hide. I don't

26:10

think the conversation would

26:12

be this if we were in a

26:14

room together. I know the

26:16

conversation would not be this. If we were

26:18

in a room together, there's absolutely no

26:20

way. And

26:22

although the that seems to be like the the the communal

26:24

kind of feeling or the it's the

26:26

common feeling is we are all

26:28

making people go back to

26:30

being vegan. or

26:32

we are encouraging people to be

26:34

vegan. We aren't convincing people

26:36

here that this way is the

26:38

better way. But if you take

26:40

a breath, like take a

26:42

breaks, step back,

26:44

are you really?

26:46

Like, is this how you

26:48

have made

26:49

people vegan? Like, have you

26:52

has anyone been shamed in a

26:54

comment section and that made them go home and

26:56

go, wait a minute. I think I think I'm gonna

26:58

completely change my lifestyle though. Actually,

27:02

yes. that person shaming me,

27:03

calling me horrible names.

27:05

They're probably right. Yeah. I'm gonna just

27:07

go change my life now. Thank you.

27:10

No.

27:11

Like, I mean, no. Of course

27:14

not. Of course not. And

27:16

that's the thing

27:16

that really saddens me the most is

27:19

that it's It

27:22

just

27:22

hurts the cause.

27:24

No

27:24

like animals are being saved.

27:26

No one's getting No

27:28

one's furthering anything. You know, all it does is

27:31

damage. It's just just does

27:33

damage.

27:35

This

27:36

show is sponsored by Better Health

27:39

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28:54

I spoke about this just a tiny

28:57

bit on Instagram story the other

28:59

day, but that

29:01

there's so much you could do

29:03

with this energy instead of

29:06

shame.

29:06

You totally could. You could use

29:08

this as fuel to

29:10

create

29:10

something, to do something. I

29:12

mean, the amount of time and dedication and energy it took that

29:15

woman to make this very long

29:18

edited produced

29:21

TikTok video, making fun of me

29:23

on the podcast, like,

29:24

wow. Wow. Like,

29:27

what else could she have done with that

29:30

dedication? And passion and time

29:31

and energy. I mean,

29:33

there's so much goodness

29:36

we can do with that. but people

29:38

instead are choosing to bully and

29:40

choosing to shame, knowing that that's not

29:42

gonna make a difference for anyone.

29:44

and it might make the person, you know,

29:47

feel that person feel a little bit

29:49

righteous for a moment or, you

29:51

know, look at me. I I took

29:53

her down. I'm better.

29:54

But but really,

29:57

really, what

29:58

is it doing for you? Like, what

29:59

is it really bringing

30:02

you? If you go

30:03

a little bit deeper, you

30:05

know, as you sit in your meditation

30:07

practice later, which I hope

30:09

you are, how does that

30:12

feel? Like, does that really align with the

30:14

human you are deep inside? Does it

30:16

really How does it

30:18

settle there? Yeah. I

30:20

I probably

30:23

doesn't sit so well and

30:25

probably there's an avoidance there too or

30:27

this behavior wouldn't be there.

30:29

But it is yeah.

30:31

It's sad that this is where we are

30:33

and having people watch this

30:35

and read this. It's not encouraging

30:38

them to become vegan, if anything, it's

30:40

separating them further. And I

30:42

can say this as a person

30:44

who, I mean, not to brag But

30:48

pretty sure that I have made

30:50

more people go vegan than

30:52

any of these people have.

30:54

like I'm really certain of

30:57

that. And

30:59

I didn't do any of

31:01

that through shame. I

31:04

didn't do any of that through

31:06

telling people that they're horrible

31:09

humans and they should die or they should be

31:11

raped and they are abusers and

31:13

Like, I didn't do any of that,

31:15

like, at all. And

31:17

my way of converting people and

31:19

trying to encourage and inspire

31:22

people to go vegan

31:24

is through food. Sharing

31:26

food I'm cooking, talking

31:28

about food I'm eating, talking

31:30

about the movement, sharing what I

31:32

felt were the really positive benefits of

31:35

being a vegan and then

31:37

living my vegan life. sharing

31:39

that from a really positive inspiring lens. Like,

31:41

look at all this food I'm making. It's so

31:43

delicious. Here you go. Look how

31:45

easy this is. And

31:47

we all know.

31:49

Like, people don't change through

31:51

that negative lens. You

31:54

have to motivate

31:56

someone and you also can't make

31:58

a person do something that they're not

31:59

ready to do or be something

32:01

that they don't want to be, you

32:04

know. all you can do is live your

32:06

life and maybe through

32:07

doing that, you'll inspire some people

32:09

and maybe you won't. But

32:12

Yeah.

32:14

I I could just I could

32:16

just sit here and go, like, the vegans are

32:19

fucking crazy. I don't wanna talk

32:21

to them anymore. I don't wanna align with them

32:24

anymore. And it's so also

32:26

so out of alignment to say that

32:29

because I am absolutely

32:31

one hundred thousand percent against

32:34

animal abuse. And for

32:36

the ethical treatment of animals, and I

32:38

always will be. And then

32:40

any every single person

32:42

who is that kind of vegan is

32:44

gonna go, well, you can't have that

32:46

viewpoint and also eat

32:48

egg. You can't have that viewpoint and

32:50

also have tried raw dairy. Like, that's

32:52

not that's not possible. Those two things

32:54

don't work. Well, then

32:56

I have to share where I am, which

32:58

is that for me, yes, it does

33:00

work. And it would be much worse

33:02

if you if every

33:04

single person didn't

33:06

think that way. Like,

33:08

do you actually want people to align

33:11

with factory farming and

33:13

animal abuse and the worst practices

33:15

on this whole entire earth because

33:17

that's kind of where you're pushing people if

33:19

it's all black and white, if there's no gray

33:22

area. okay, I'm not vegan anymore. I

33:24

still believe animals should be treated as well

33:26

as possible. If I would

33:28

ever eat an animal, I would

33:30

wants to know, need to know that that

33:33

animal has only had one bad day in

33:34

their life. But

33:37

it's like that doesn't

33:38

matter. Right? Because if you're

33:40

not a hundred percent vegan doing it

33:42

the vegan way, then you are in

33:44

the same camp. as

33:47

the people who, you know, are completely, like,

33:50

unconscious about it, who don't have any

33:52

awareness about it, who just eat

33:54

factory farm meat, who

33:57

who really don't care. Like, then then

33:59

then you're in

33:59

that same camp. And

34:02

what I've discovered now is just

34:04

that's just not the case.

34:06

like there's a whole huge

34:08

amount of gray area

34:10

here where people

34:12

do care about animal well-being. and

34:14

people who tend to their own animals, which I used to think, like,

34:16

those were the worst kind of people. Like, how

34:18

could you possibly tend to

34:21

your own animals? Like, have

34:23

your own chickens and put

34:25

them through laying eggs. And then at

34:27

the end of their life,

34:30

you know, like butcher and eat your own chicken like that to me was the worst of the

34:32

worst. And then I look at that now and I'm

34:34

like, well, what a beautiful thing?

34:36

And I

34:38

genuinely do believe that. I would love to have my own

34:40

chickens and love on them

34:42

and take care of them and tend

34:44

to them. and

34:46

probably we'll find rescue chickens

34:48

when we do.

34:50

And yes, at the end, and

34:53

eat their not push them to produce an

34:55

insane amount and not make

34:58

their living conditions

35:00

be as far away from how they

35:02

would, you know, like actually do it in the

35:04

most natural, most sustainable,

35:06

most down to earth

35:08

way. And not that I'm ready for this now, but maybe at some point in

35:10

my life, at the end of that

35:12

chicken's life, would I be able

35:14

to buy

35:16

myself without that chicken having to travel or go in

35:18

the truck and be transported and

35:20

go through this very scary horrible experience. Could

35:22

I be the person to butcher

35:26

that chicken and then serve it to my family, not today,

35:28

but that thing which I

35:30

used to think was just the most

35:33

awful, inhumane thing ever. I see now

35:36

as as very

35:37

nourishing, as

35:40

very wholesome,

35:42

like actually as that that's what my grandma

35:44

did. That's what my

35:46

grandparents did and their

35:48

parents and their parents. and

35:51

that's how my ancestors

35:53

lived. And I

35:55

can truly see something

35:57

sacred in aligning with a lifestyle

35:59

that's closer

35:59

to that. where I

36:01

am eating less Assaibre, for example, which is something

36:03

I used to eat all the time,

36:05

that doesn't even grow

36:07

in this hemisphere. Right?

36:10

Like, even, like, even in the Ruba, like, it's

36:12

not native there at all. Like,

36:14

I would eat all my plate,

36:17

things that came from twenty different parts

36:20

of the world,

36:22

and that I would never be able

36:24

to actually grow myself or connect

36:27

with myself and that doesn't align at all

36:29

with my ancestral ways. Like that to

36:31

me now feels more

36:34

artificial. and

36:35

feels further away

36:38

than living a seasonal, local

36:40

life with what's available to

36:42

me here. And

36:44

yes, and especially here, that

36:46

means more animal foods. And I don't know

36:48

what that's gonna mean for me because course, yes,

36:51

I have the ability to go to the grocery store if I

36:53

want to, but I would like to to do

36:55

that less. And

36:58

the and the

36:59

reason I haven't yeah.

37:02

I didn't get to

37:02

it. It's too big of a topic that

37:05

I haven't talked about. The ethics,

37:07

of course, this, like, big part of

37:09

this conversation, which is the ethics behind this. How can

37:11

you change your mind

37:14

so completely having been

37:16

vegan for the animals and then all of a

37:18

sudden being open to eating animal

37:20

foods. And the reason

37:22

I haven't gotten to that yet is because

37:24

it's such a big,

37:26

huge thing for me. And

37:28

some people out there seem to

37:30

think that, like, all of a

37:32

sudden here, I'm the most heartless person

37:35

eating steak for breakfast, lunch, and

37:37

dinner, not giving a shit about anything

37:39

at all, and I just want all

37:41

animals to die now.

37:44

I mean, do you really believe that?

37:46

Like, do you really or is

37:48

that just like a comfortable narrative that

37:51

makes it easier for you to villainize

37:53

me and demonize me and hate me if you make

37:55

me into the worst version

37:56

of what this is for you.

37:58

But of course, that's

37:59

not true. Of course,

38:01

that's not true. And I was made fun of

38:03

a lot this weekend for

38:06

sharing my experience with the

38:08

first egg. I

38:10

ever ate. And that is like a truly

38:13

spiritual experience that I had. I shared it on

38:15

the podcast. I shared a little bit of

38:17

it on Instagram. it

38:20

was truly a transformative

38:22

sacred experience for me. I I shared

38:24

really vulnerability about

38:26

how I cried. how that it

38:28

was a huge thing. And

38:30

for someone to not understand that,

38:33

not only not understand, but

38:35

but choose to burate

38:38

that and choose to make fun of that

38:40

and take that to

38:42

belittle

38:42

somehow me

38:44

somehow. I

38:44

mean, it's just a thing to

38:46

do. It's it's just

38:48

really, really, and

38:52

somehow saying that that I'm I'm making that up and that

38:54

is just ridiculous. Like, why why

38:56

on earth? Like, how could

38:58

this not be a spiritual thing?

39:00

thing how

39:01

can how can

39:04

you look at this in any way

39:06

and not feel a spiritual connection

39:08

to the food that

39:09

sustains you? especially

39:12

as a vegan,

39:12

you should understand that because there

39:15

should be some spiritual

39:18

connection there. to the animals

39:20

and to the lives of all beings that

39:22

makes you not wanna eat that

39:24

way. Right? So can you then

39:26

imagine making a transition from that to

39:28

a new thing, having that

39:30

come from a really deep

39:32

place. That, of course, that is also a very

39:34

spiritual journey.

39:36

And for me now, it's like the spiritual journey is

39:38

truly the return to what

39:40

I feel I was supposed

39:43

to be all along. I kind of I really I

39:46

I don't regret anything. I mean, it is what

39:48

it is, but I wish I

39:50

hadn't put that label on

39:52

so strongly And what

39:54

probably would have happened is I would

39:56

have remained mainly plant based, but I would

39:58

have been eating

39:58

some egg. Like I have

39:59

friends who've lived exactly that

40:02

lifestyle

40:02

for for years and years feel because

40:04

I shut that door door so intensely,

40:06

it was just never gonna happen.

40:08

And I really did deprive myself

40:12

of nutrition that I needed. And

40:14

living in Aruba, we have one of our best

40:16

friends in the whole world. His sister lives

40:18

next door to our house. and

40:21

she has chickens. And those chickens,

40:24

like, they live in her house and out of her

40:26

house. They just walk in and out as they like.

40:28

They're really, like, her She

40:30

doesn't have that many of them, but

40:32

she gifts egg to friends and

40:34

family and neighbors. I'm like, I could

40:36

have probably spent

40:38

those years like, a

40:40

little bit less depleted

40:42

if I would have been open to just

40:44

that. And I'm not talking factory

40:46

like,

40:46

where they squeeze chickens into these

40:48

horrible tiny cages. They're totally

40:50

abused. It's truly awful.

40:52

That's not how I'm ever

40:55

gonna eat. And I don't know how anyone would

40:58

imagine that. Like, that's that's that it would be the

41:00

worst, that it wouldn't be this very

41:02

intentional thing for me.

41:02

Of course, it's an intentional thing. And

41:05

if

41:06

anything knowing that

41:08

being vegan, it's still a

41:10

minority thing. Most people in this world

41:12

are not vegan.

41:14

For

41:14

the people who don't want to be, who are never gonna be,

41:16

can we encourage them to

41:18

make better choices around what they

41:21

put on their plate? can we

41:23

talk about how to source foods from smaller scale farms

41:25

and how to support farmers

41:27

in that way? to

41:29

move away from these massive corporations and

41:32

conglomerations that are often

41:34

very corrupt and so deeply

41:36

harmful, not just to the animals,

41:39

to the environment, to people,

41:41

there is other ways. It's

41:43

not just this awful,

41:46

most

41:46

awful thing or veganism. It's

41:48

not that. And I really think people need to wake up start

41:50

to open their minds to that

41:52

so that there at least can be a

41:55

conversation had. because

41:58

here, there's no

41:59

conversation. I mean, there's I don't I

42:02

genuinely don't believe and I say this

42:04

with my

42:06

full conviction since this podcast came out on Friday

42:08

and all this fighting started to

42:10

happen on social media, I don't think a

42:12

single person's

42:12

mind has been changed.

42:14

mine has been changed I

42:17

don't think there is a single I

42:18

don't think there's a single

42:20

non

42:20

vegan who was shamed and

42:23

decided to become vegan this weekend.

42:26

I don't think there's a single

42:28

vegan that was shamed and decided to start

42:30

eating animal foods. weekend. I don't think

42:32

a single person has had their mind

42:34

changed from shame. I I know

42:36

that. And

42:40

there must There must be another

42:42

way. Yeah. I don't have the

42:44

I don't have the solution here. I'm just

42:46

really

42:46

sharing what's what's

42:48

on my heart.

42:51

So where

42:53

am I now

42:56

here

42:56

today? I

42:58

feel like this

42:59

episode became a little bit ranty. It was kind

43:02

of bound to be

43:04

I

43:04

oh my genuinely believe,

43:07

and I wouldn't share it

43:09

if it wasn't my absolute truth.

43:11

I genuinely believe

43:14

that I have been a little bit depleted over

43:16

the past couple

43:17

of years. I really

43:20

do. And

43:22

I

43:22

shared on the last episode of the podcast that we

43:25

went through this season where Dennis and

43:27

I ate a lot of junk food

43:29

and we were so excited

43:31

when vegan foods became available in Aruba that we ate a lot of

43:33

junk. That's not how we ate for

43:35

twelve years. Like,

43:39

you have followed me online for a

43:42

long time. I used to share all

43:44

of our food. I mean, I

43:46

cooked home

43:48

cooked meals for lunch and dinner. Like, that was I've I've been

43:50

extremely, extremely healthy,

43:52

especially for the past two years of

43:54

being vegan. I've been on this wild

43:57

protocol where I'm not allowed

43:59

any

43:59

sugar, I'm not allowed any processed

44:02

foods of

44:02

any kind, not allowed any white

44:04

floured. I mean, so much I had to cut out of my diet where

44:07

I've been going through

44:09

these definite years of

44:12

my life of only eating a whole foods vegan

44:14

diet, and then had seasons

44:16

like when we got vegan food in a

44:18

rebound, we ate a lot of junk

44:20

food. Yeah. I

44:22

believe in both of those scenarios that

44:24

I have been a little bit depleted. And

44:26

I think that that depletion started

44:29

showing up for me in a major way

44:31

after pregnancy that like a lot of

44:34

people I felt really good in the first couple of

44:36

years and then slowly because we

44:37

have a lot of

44:39

deposits within the body, especially

44:42

the minerals that we lose and that we

44:44

miss. Like, the body can take care of that for a

44:46

long time until all of a sudden

44:48

it can't. And

44:49

arriving at this

44:51

knowing now, just from how I feel

44:53

in my body how i feel

44:56

having incorporated some animal foods,

44:58

mainly egg some

45:01

organic yogurt from small scale

45:03

farm from the farm next door. yeah,

45:04

let's talk about what I'm eating. I got a lot of questions around this. So

45:07

egg, I've talked about a lot,

45:09

fucking egg. It's been like,

45:12

Maybe we had a

45:13

joke yesterday. Like, maybe we should print

45:15

t shirts to raise money for

45:17

the vegan cause, like, cancel

45:19

yoga girl t shirts, and then my friend was like, it needs

45:21

to have some sort of egg motive.

45:24

Like, it needs to, like, needs

45:26

to be egg related. Like, okay.

45:28

It was Let's let's do this. But yeah,

45:30

definitely egg. There's a lot

45:32

of homesteads around where

45:34

we live. very

45:36

small scale farms, people who have, you know, ten,

45:39

fifteen chickens that roam outside

45:41

or that walk free

45:43

on their farms. So whenever

45:45

we are driving, whenever we pass by

45:46

one of those places, a lot of them have like a

45:48

little in Sweden we have. It's like the Swedish version

45:52

of Venmo. We call it Swiss here,

45:54

where you just grab a carton and then it's like by

45:56

the just the on our system. So we

45:58

source a lot of our eggs

45:59

that way. there

46:02

is a bigger like,

46:03

still a small farm. They have twenty five cows,

46:05

and they never have more than

46:07

twenty five and some chickens.

46:10

And we

46:12

get In other times, we get our eggs from there. And

46:15

for me,

46:17

it's

46:18

for me it's like like

46:21

eating

46:21

an egg. First of all, and this

46:23

is also really important. The

46:26

situation in the US and people in

46:28

the US don't know this because it's kind of what you have over

46:30

there. The factory farming that exists in

46:32

the US

46:34

is appalling. It's

46:36

absolutely appalling, and it doesn't exist like

46:39

that here.

46:40

It's not

46:41

legal and allowed in

46:43

Sweden. There's no comparison to

46:45

that. We don't have that. We don't

46:48

have those kinds of feed lots and, you

46:50

know, thousands of cows crammed

46:52

together and never getting to

46:54

move or go outside, like, we don't have

46:56

that.

46:56

And I've had to ask

46:57

around a lot, like, really,

46:59

really a lot So what does it mean? Grass fed

47:02

beef, for example? Like

47:04

like, how would

47:04

you source that in Sweden? And

47:07

it's like, well, all beef in Sweden is grass fed because all

47:09

cows are outside for as long as the weather

47:12

allows. And then depending on the

47:13

farm, if it's like a really

47:16

great, you

47:18

know, beautiful farm. They let their cows be outside for

47:20

as long as possible. Like my

47:22

brother has cows, not for

47:25

dairy or beef, they just tend to the land. So

47:27

they will live they're just taken care of and

47:30

will live their

47:30

whole entire lives until they die

47:32

of old old age.

47:35

but his cows can be outside all year,

47:37

like they never have to

47:39

go indoors. They're winter cows, you know,

47:41

so there's cows like that too.

47:43

but then there's really great farms where when the cows

47:45

have to go inside, they actually give them

47:48

feed that they grew themselves so they

47:50

continue eating clover

47:52

and grass. as much as possible in the winter too, you know. So

47:54

this idea where like in the States to

47:56

find grass fed beef,

47:56

you have to hunt for it, you have to

47:59

look

47:59

for it, you

47:59

have to source

48:02

it. It's really expensive. It's hard. It's like we don't we

48:04

don't have that option of not

48:06

having grass fed beef here unless it's

48:09

imported from somewhere. So it's just

48:12

the animal practices are very, very different just as a baseline. Of

48:15

course, there's bad

48:17

versions

48:17

of that in Sweden too, like even of

48:20

these of these farms, there's places

48:22

where they don't, of course, of

48:24

course, but it's not a factory farm

48:26

like they have in the states. just wanna wanna

48:28

share that. But the

48:30

idea for me, for example,

48:32

to eat

48:34

an egg, that that might

48:36

have been sourced or taken

48:38

from an animal that

48:39

suffered its entire life.

48:42

no way no way, I have no interest

48:44

in that. I would never

48:46

I would I

48:47

I mean, I would never think

48:49

that way. Like, it it's it's not

48:51

a possibility for me to not go

48:54

out of my way to

48:56

source the best possible option

48:58

there the is is.

49:00

And right now, we are eating the best possible option there

49:03

is except for

49:05

the very best option, which is gonna

49:07

be when we have

49:07

our own chickens. which

49:10

is gonna

49:10

be, like, I'm in charge and I

49:12

will know how they're taken care of and how

49:14

they're attended to. That's the best possible

49:17

option. And we'll have that

49:18

probably early spring.

49:21

Like, that's probably

49:22

one of the first things we're gonna do early next

49:24

year. So and that's of

49:26

course gonna be a relief because don't

49:28

have to worry about that

49:31

anymore. Right? And

49:33

I am only interested

49:36

in incorporating animal foods

49:38

into my life if it

49:40

feels aligned with the lifestyle that I

49:42

live and with what I believe in.

49:44

And I don't believe

49:46

that animals should suffer. I don't believe animals should be

49:48

tortured. I don't believe

49:50

animals should be abused. I don't believe

49:52

animals should live a life

49:54

of fear.

49:54

the year and

49:56

I would love, if

49:58

possible, if I am gonna

50:00

go down that route where I'm

50:03

eventually eating meat and eating a

50:06

wide variety of things

50:08

that I can do that from an animal that's

50:10

only had one bad day

50:11

in their life. And there

50:13

is a way to source your animal foods. That way, there is

50:15

a way, of course, it's a pain in the

50:17

ass. Like, just like being

50:20

vegan, is a pain in the ass. You

50:22

can't eat everywhere. You can't eat everything. You have to think about what

50:24

you purchase and think about how you spend your money

50:26

and who you support and get to know

50:30

places and farms. Like, of course, it takes the extra

50:32

effort, but so did being vegan. So

50:34

why would I not put that effort in now?

50:36

Of course, of

50:37

course, I am. And

50:40

then,

50:41

yeah, the raw

50:43

dairy people are really upset about

50:45

this as well.

50:48

there is a difference and I know to a lot of

50:50

people it doesn't matter. But I'm just like, it's gonna

50:52

be

50:52

like talking to a wall. But

50:54

for me, knowing that I

50:57

am sourcing dairy from a cow that gets to live

50:59

its life with its calf. You

51:00

know that that's an option.

51:02

Right? There's small farms where

51:06

First of all, the animals don't get forcefully impregnated

51:08

like they would in a factory farm

51:10

kind of situation where they

51:12

actually have a bowl. and

51:15

they do their thing in a natural way.

51:17

Like, that actually exists. And when I think

51:19

back to the ancestral ways or

51:21

how my great great great

51:24

grandparents live. They

51:25

weren't eating meat,

51:26

dairy, and eggs from factory

51:29

farms. Like, that didn't exist. you

51:31

know, like it was like the neighbor

51:34

farm who had cows in a

51:36

bowl and then that's what

51:38

that was. So,

51:40

yes, you can absolutely source

51:42

dairy in a much more

51:44

kind and loving way. where

51:46

they don't get separated from the calf. And even

51:49

and like the most,

51:51

the closest to Like,

51:54

what's the word I'm looking for?

51:57

Yeah. To

51:58

a business, I guess, like a

51:59

for profit farm where I've ever

52:02

that I've ever been, where I ever know,

52:04

is my cousins. And I talked about them a

52:06

little bit on last week's podcast too, but

52:08

they have a dairy farm. an

52:10

organic dairy farm. And

52:12

when I used to, like, in

52:14

my mind, when I

52:15

was vegan, I would

52:17

just like, oh, hate what they're doing.

52:20

Well, that's their choice, and they're doing that, and

52:22

it's so harmful so and so. But you know

52:24

what

52:24

I never did? of

52:26

ideas, a lot of judgments,

52:28

a lot of I would never tell

52:30

them because I'm not a crazy person.

52:33

I would never have a that

52:35

conversation over dinner about why they should be these

52:38

farmers should be vegan. Like, I'm I'm not

52:40

that person. I had a lot

52:42

of those ideas in my mind, a lot of

52:44

judgment about them that they were doing things that

52:46

were really bad and really wrong.

52:48

But you

52:48

know what I never I never

52:50

asked. I never inquired.

52:52

I went to my aunts. I

52:54

went, hey, could you show me how it

52:57

works on the farm? Could

52:59

you could you take me through, like,

53:01

the process here? Like, how do you take care of

53:03

the animals here? Do you take care of the animals?

53:05

Or is this just a

53:07

machine? where, you know, these animals are

53:10

forcefully impregnated against their will and then

53:12

held in a little stall for the rest of their lives.

53:14

And then baby

53:16

calves ripped from them, the moment they're

53:18

born, and then all the baby

53:20

cows, they just get slaughtered. The

53:22

baby calves just the the

53:24

the boys, they just get slaughtered right

53:26

away. All these calves are just

53:28

screaming out for their

53:30

mommies. The moms are screaming out for

53:32

their babies. and

53:34

they never get to go outside and they

53:36

only eat soy and terrible grain

53:38

and they're pumped with antibiotics and,

53:40

you know, this all the things I thought I knew.

53:42

I never fucking asked. And

53:44

guess what? That is not

53:47

what happens there. and

53:48

it is not the standard practice in a lot

53:50

of places there. They actually whenever a cow

53:53

is pregnant, they leave the

53:55

baby with the mom. And

53:58

I was like, oh, but I thought the

53:59

whole, like, I thought the whole thing was,

54:02

like, right away, like, that first,

54:04

like, milk,

54:06

you like, it's going to the people. And they're like, no. They leave the baby with the mom

54:08

for at least six

54:10

months, which is I'm like,

54:12

oh, well, that's how long I

54:14

nursed Leah. Like,

54:16

I made it to, like, seven and a half months

54:18

with her, you know. And,

54:21

yeah, maybe in in a completely, like, natural where there's

54:23

no interference and there's no people, the

54:26

cathode nurse for a

54:28

longer time. but

54:30

somewhere in all of this, we are

54:32

inserting a human need

54:34

here. Like, I am putting myself in

54:36

the way of

54:38

of of of connecting with the animals in that

54:40

way, of nourishing myself

54:42

together with the animal or from the animal

54:45

in that way. but I didn't even know, you know.

54:47

And, yeah, the cows are outside, like, the whole the

54:50

whole entire time. They

54:53

love their animals. and talking to

54:55

them and actually having that conversation. I didn't know. I thought

54:57

this was just like they're pushing these animals

55:00

around and

55:02

no way you could have a dairy farm and, like, love the Like, no

55:04

way they can cook howls

55:06

live a really long time. they

55:10

don't make any money

55:12

from beef. It's not like a and I also

55:14

thought that, like, the point of the

55:16

the point of it was like to

55:18

get as much milk out of the cow as you possibly could and

55:21

then immediately kill the cow at a very

55:23

young age so you can sell the beef. Like, they don't that's

55:25

not what the practice is

55:27

at all. they live

55:29

for as long as they have a really possible

55:31

good life. And I

55:33

just I don't know. For

55:35

me, it's like rambling a

55:38

little bit now, but it

55:40

shows for me just

55:42

how close I was in my

55:44

view because really the viewpoint and

55:46

I had it was that I'm

55:48

vegan and I know better.

55:50

And III don't I don't even need to have the

55:52

conversation with these people because they're

55:54

all stupid. none of them are

55:56

doing it the right

55:58

way. And

55:58

it just meant that I

55:59

remained ignorance really

56:01

ignorant and non

56:02

compassionate toward people who are absolutely totally part

56:05

of my family, not able to see

56:07

things from any other person's perspective. It

56:09

took me years to

56:12

actually aligned with the truth that

56:14

there are indigenous people all

56:16

over the world, that absolutely

56:18

never in a million years should

56:21

even have a thought about being vegan.

56:23

I thought everyone should be vegan, and that

56:25

should include indigenous people, should include

56:28

people who don't have the funds, should include

56:30

people who live in food deserts,

56:32

should include people who have absolutely

56:34

no access to fruit and vegetables, should

56:36

include people who,

56:38

like, I what was in that

56:40

righteous, vegan place of

56:42

everybody that puts you in

56:44

a in a place that lacks compassion

56:46

and that lacks understanding and that any

56:48

kind of longing to

56:50

walk in another person's shoes to

56:52

understand their

56:53

point of view. I

56:55

mean, I literally had people

56:57

tell me they are

56:59

so sick from

57:01

being vegan. and I deep down thought that they're they're not

57:04

right about that. Right?

57:06

Now again, and I can, like,

57:09

I'm I'm sharing this very unfiltered view that

57:12

I had. I would never

57:14

tell people these things. I would

57:16

never go anybody's Instagram

57:18

account or in their DMs or in their comments

57:20

section or to their face and say,

57:22

well, you're making a terrible decision. you

57:24

don't know your body. You're a horrible person. You should go to hell. You should

57:26

be raped. You should die. I

57:29

I would never ever

57:32

say

57:32

these things. Right? But I thought them, like, I had

57:34

these views. I

57:35

held these views to myself. I held

57:37

these I held this judgment

57:39

to myself. Right? and

57:41

it kept me completely ignorant.

57:44

It

57:44

really, really, really did.

57:46

And I think that's the biggest danger of

57:48

of having a movement that's this righteous

57:52

is somehow you become

57:54

so non compassionate around

57:56

people's experience. Like, how could I

57:59

actually believe a person telling me they are sick on a

58:01

vegan diet, totally depleted. And I'm

58:03

like, no. No. I

58:05

know their body. better

58:07

than than they do. I just know they

58:10

weren't doing it right. They should eat a

58:12

more like whole foods type

58:14

of vegan diet. They should maybe

58:16

eat more like, plant based fats probably, and

58:18

there's just probably, like, not taking care of

58:20

themselves. Like, oh, well,

58:24

fucking judgmental What kind of a

58:26

bullshit thing is that to

58:28

think about someone?

58:30

Let alone, like, becomes so

58:32

boundary less that you would tell

58:34

them or shame them. I

58:37

mean, and

58:38

this whole, like, just

58:39

this whole conversation now has

58:41

made me feel not

58:44

separate from my own inner love that I have

58:47

for animals, which I've always had and always will

58:49

have for the rest of my life for

58:51

as long as I live. but

58:53

it's really separated me from the love I

58:55

had for the vegan

58:58

community. It really has. And I kind

59:00

of I can

59:02

see now the power of individual people

59:04

inspiring the masses and inspiring

59:06

people and the

59:08

absolute detriment of having a whole

59:10

group of people shame and

59:12

act this way. I mean, honestly, it's

59:14

embarrassing. Going into my

59:16

comment section right now, it's like it's

59:18

embarrassing. I I feel

59:20

ashamed that this is a part of that

59:22

this is behavior

59:23

that real grown up

59:25

people engage in. It's

59:27

just honestly, it's just not

59:30

okay. It's

59:30

not. It's

59:31

it's truly

59:34

not.

59:35

When it

59:36

comes to the ethics part of

59:38

this, it's I am still struggling

59:42

with this. I'm still

59:44

exploring in this area.

59:48

I will never arrive at a place

59:50

where I can just like

59:52

sit and have a steak and not think about

59:54

that. You know?

59:55

Every time I eat any kind of

59:57

animal foods, there is a moment of

59:59

reverence. there for me.

59:59

moment of gratitude there for me. There is

1:00:02

a moment of presence

1:00:04

of I am so grateful

1:00:07

like

1:00:07

this being actually gave

1:00:08

a part of itself. If it's

1:00:10

the milk or the egg, gave a part

1:00:13

of itself so that I can

1:00:14

nourish myself so that I can feel whole.

1:00:17

Like, that is an

1:00:20

unbelievable unbelievable

1:00:22

gift. It's

1:00:24

not just something to shrug your shoulders about and, you know, stuff

1:00:26

you're faced with all throughout the day. Like, no,

1:00:28

there there's a reverence

1:00:32

here. And

1:00:32

at the same time,

1:00:35

the whole

1:00:37

topic around death

1:00:40

which I have been so separated from for such a long time,

1:00:42

literally had my eyes closed to

1:00:44

this being a part of

1:00:46

being a part of life

1:00:48

Like, we are carbon

1:00:50

beings. We need carbons that

1:00:52

thrive. This is part of

1:00:54

the cycle. And we see it

1:00:56

in nature. I mean, it's it's it's really

1:00:59

and I've always been one of those people, like, watching one of

1:01:01

those animal shows, you know, watching,

1:01:03

like, National Geographic.

1:01:06

And then seeing an animal, take down another animal, I couldn't I

1:01:08

couldn't watch that. You know,

1:01:10

because a part of me felt like, well, that's

1:01:12

it's so harmful.

1:01:13

You know, it's so horrible. And

1:01:16

it is, it's horrible. It's really hard.

1:01:19

It's

1:01:19

it's death, but it is

1:01:21

a part

1:01:22

of life.

1:01:24

and

1:01:25

I am starting

1:01:27

to return to the belief that

1:01:29

it is a part of the natural

1:01:31

order of things. Is it a

1:01:34

natural order of things to

1:01:36

have trillions of animals

1:01:38

abuse living in fear under horrible circumstances?

1:01:42

slaughtered in the most awful

1:01:44

way for complete unconscious

1:01:47

consumption. No. That is not

1:01:49

the natural order of things. factory

1:01:52

farming is not the natural order of

1:01:54

things. Animal abuse is

1:01:56

not the natural order

1:01:58

of things. but

1:01:59

death is is.

1:02:02

And I

1:02:03

am still navigating this

1:02:06

this path of, okay, how

1:02:08

do I What do I feel?

1:02:10

Okay. Wait. Like, where is my place in this circle, in

1:02:14

this cycle? And

1:02:16

an example, you know, my brother hunts

1:02:18

and I have, of

1:02:20

course, had such a hard time

1:02:23

with this. I mean, for

1:02:26

years really, like, I didn't want him to talk

1:02:28

to me about it and we wouldn't

1:02:30

fight about it or or anything like that. I would just

1:02:32

ask him not to like, he wouldn't talk about it

1:02:34

with me course because he knew

1:02:36

it just it just bothered me. And

1:02:37

he went hunting this weekend. And

1:02:39

and

1:02:42

send

1:02:42

me a picture, and

1:02:45

I

1:02:45

cried.

1:02:46

i cried You know? you

1:02:48

know and it's it's

1:02:49

really if there's the

1:02:52

the the kindest meat

1:02:54

you

1:02:54

could probably ever eat if you're ever gonna

1:02:56

eat meat,

1:02:57

the most sustainable, the most

1:03:00

regenerative knowing that that is

1:03:02

truly, truly in a

1:03:04

nonnegotiable way an animal that

1:03:06

has had a completely

1:03:08

natural life, lived its whole entire life,

1:03:10

the way it's supposed to live undisturbed

1:03:14

by people, not raced for me, you know, it's just a

1:03:16

wild animal living its whole entire life in

1:03:18

the wild, and then

1:03:20

getting shot from hundreds of meters away.

1:03:23

there's never a moment of fear, there's never

1:03:25

a moment of, you know, it's just it's

1:03:27

just the bullet and that's

1:03:30

that. That

1:03:32

you

1:03:32

know, which which I feel, okay, I should feel more accepting

1:03:35

around that now, you

1:03:36

know, if if I'm if I'm on this path, I need

1:03:40

to to get closer to that and he sent me a picture III

1:03:43

asked and I cried. It

1:03:45

was extremely hard

1:03:46

for me to to watch. really,

1:03:51

really? And I don't think and I ask him, you know,

1:03:53

what is it like there? Is it like it's

1:03:55

like, of course,

1:03:58

it's there's a moment

1:03:59

of reverence there. There's a moment of awe

1:04:02

there. And this

1:04:02

is an animal

1:04:04

that can feed

1:04:08

several families for a whole entire year.

1:04:10

You know, it doesn't

1:04:12

get for

1:04:12

talking about sustainability and

1:04:15

taking

1:04:15

care of the planet, like, that

1:04:17

doesn't

1:04:17

get more sustainable

1:04:19

than that. And still

1:04:21

it's death. Right? Still that

1:04:23

one bullet, still death. It's still taking an

1:04:25

animal's life. It's still a very very

1:04:28

hard thing.

1:04:31

And

1:04:31

I'm not sitting here saying

1:04:32

that all of a sudden, it's not a hard

1:04:34

thing for me, that all

1:04:36

of a sudden, I don't care about

1:04:39

animals. Like, I'm the person who's I've never killed a spider in

1:04:41

my whole life. I'm the person

1:04:43

who lifts flies and spiders out

1:04:45

of the house.

1:04:46

that moves snails

1:04:48

from the side of the road,

1:04:50

that's rescued so many animals

1:04:52

and dogs and cats in my life,

1:04:56

and like this, it's always gonna be who I am.

1:04:59

And how do

1:05:00

I align that now knowing

1:05:05

that a part of me needs

1:05:07

animal nourishment to actually

1:05:10

thrive. And some people

1:05:12

out there might say, well, you should compromise your

1:05:14

health, you should compromise your well-being, you should suffer so that

1:05:16

animals don't have to suffer. And that is also a

1:05:18

really strange way to live, like at

1:05:20

what cost

1:05:22

If you knew your child was knew the way

1:05:25

a person who's in my

1:05:27

place now knows, And

1:05:30

I know. Like if you knew that your child needs this

1:05:33

to sustain themselves, to not get

1:05:35

sick, to not get depleted,

1:05:36

the tweeted would

1:05:38

you allow that? Would you let that continue? Like, to to what

1:05:40

point? Like, how sick would you allow your child to

1:05:42

get or you to get if this was true for

1:05:44

you? I'm not saying it's true

1:05:45

for everyone. It's

1:05:47

true for me. And it's a really

1:05:49

strange point of view, you

1:05:51

know, to to like,

1:05:54

where is the

1:05:56

compassion then? you

1:05:57

know. So being where I

1:05:59

am

1:05:59

now

1:05:59

knowing what I need to

1:06:02

not be

1:06:04

pleaded knowing what I need to feel whole and nourished and full.

1:06:06

Like, I'm feeling full for

1:06:08

the first time in a long time.

1:06:12

then how do I align that knowing that there is gonna be

1:06:15

death involved?

1:06:16

And I am

1:06:18

still journeying there.

1:06:20

the in there I

1:06:22

haven't arrived at that one place of a destination

1:06:24

where that's that. And I'm

1:06:26

ready for everything now. No. And I I

1:06:28

think probably it's gonna be a back and

1:06:31

forth. It's gonna be This feels okay and then

1:06:33

this does not feel okay.

1:06:36

And it's

1:06:36

yeah. It's a

1:06:38

journey

1:06:39

that I'm that I'm on.

1:06:40

on

1:06:42

There

1:06:45

has been no

1:06:48

celebration over here that we're

1:06:50

not vegan anymore. Also for Dennis, it

1:06:52

has not it was a hard

1:06:55

thing for him

1:06:56

he jumped

1:06:58

on the wagon or off

1:07:00

the wagon, I guess,

1:07:01

probably fairly quickly because I think he's

1:07:03

wanted to for a

1:07:06

long time. but he struggled. I mean,

1:07:08

really, it's not

1:07:09

been yay,

1:07:12

you

1:07:12

know. Let's go and

1:07:14

harm a bunch of animals now. Let's celebrate,

1:07:16

you know, my best friend posted

1:07:18

a real from my

1:07:22

birthday. It was a it was a real from my birthday and

1:07:24

in there it was a clip of me eating

1:07:26

a little piece of toast with

1:07:29

a sardine on it. There

1:07:32

was

1:07:32

a it's like a sardine

1:07:35

pesto toast. And

1:07:38

She was like,

1:07:39

I'm posing this real and I was like, hey, can you wait until, like, I'm gonna tell the

1:07:41

world at any moment now that I'm not vegan? Can

1:07:43

you just just wait? And

1:07:47

then I announced that she was like, oh, I'm posting that old real now. And I was

1:07:49

like, that doesn't yeah. That doesn't matter.

1:07:51

And people thought genuinely

1:07:54

that we went out to celebrate not

1:07:57

being

1:07:57

vegan anymore. Like,

1:07:59

there was

1:08:02

no There's no such thing. There's no such thing. We saw

1:08:04

what we celebrated was my birthday. Like,

1:08:06

I actually it was my birthday.

1:08:09

and we went at we went out to dinner and had a really

1:08:12

beautiful night.

1:08:14

So there's

1:08:16

been There's

1:08:17

been no celebration of this. If anything,

1:08:19

there's been a lot of grief, especially in

1:08:21

the beginning. And

1:08:23

I kind of That

1:08:25

was my plan for this episode, but I'm already kind of

1:08:27

over time. So I guess I'll say that for another But I

1:08:31

wanted to share step

1:08:34

by step journey up through food. Like, after I ate that first egg, like, what did I eat after

1:08:37

that? And how

1:08:40

did that? how did

1:08:42

that come about? The first thing I ate after was fish. yeah, I'll tell the

1:08:44

story another

1:08:46

time, I think.

1:08:48

But

1:08:48

i think It's

1:08:49

really important to me that people know that this wasn't some sort of

1:08:52

flippant decision that

1:08:56

it wasn't thought through, you know, that people think

1:08:59

it wasn't thought through, that it was something that I it's something I've been sitting with for

1:09:01

a year and a half.

1:09:03

It's a long time.

1:09:05

a really long time

1:09:08

and something

1:09:08

I would never share if it

1:09:10

wasn't an absolutely ingrained

1:09:12

truth in

1:09:14

me. And just

1:09:15

like when I talk about being pro choice

1:09:17

or when I talk about

1:09:19

anti racism or

1:09:21

talk about politics or things that come

1:09:23

up or supporting the trans movement, like things that

1:09:25

come up on my platforms a lot. I

1:09:28

knew that this would bring a

1:09:30

shit show. Like, I knew this would

1:09:32

bring criticism and critique. And

1:09:34

I know that deep down for so many people, this

1:09:36

is about love and

1:09:39

this is about compassion. and

1:09:41

I know that because

1:09:43

I have been in that same

1:09:45

place. And

1:09:45

what's happens after a while is that suddenly it's

1:09:47

not about compassion anymore. because

1:09:51

if we lose sight of being

1:09:53

compassionate toward each other, we're

1:09:55

not really helping

1:09:58

the animal cause either.

1:10:00

And

1:10:00

I just wish we could

1:10:02

have a more compassionate conversation

1:10:04

around this.

1:10:06

I I really do

1:10:10

and maybe

1:10:10

that's what this will blossom into. I

1:10:12

mean, I I hope so. I have

1:10:14

had a lot of really constructive just

1:10:18

shares with so many of

1:10:20

you over the weekend and I

1:10:22

really appreciate your input. I do

1:10:25

and I don't know really where where this will bring.

1:10:27

I know I've kind of I don't

1:10:29

wanna I don't wanna talk about

1:10:31

this for weeks. Okay? on

1:10:35

social media now. Like, I'm

1:10:37

just moving on. I don't wanna

1:10:39

fan the flames of

1:10:41

the drama anymore. So And I know it will

1:10:43

be there every time I share about

1:10:44

anything food related and then probably if I

1:10:46

share about things that aren't like there's

1:10:48

people that are gonna be there in

1:10:51

the comment section going wild. and

1:10:54

that's probably what it will be now,

1:10:56

you know. And I just have to accept that because,

1:10:58

yeah, I was vegan for a long

1:10:59

time. I I was.

1:11:02

i was and

1:11:03

I changed my mind. I know.

1:11:07

And I

1:11:07

think it's

1:11:08

so like,

1:11:10

it's aren't we so lucky that we get to

1:11:13

grow and

1:11:14

change our opinion? And

1:11:16

and and

1:11:17

not have to hold on

1:11:19

to the same dogmatic viewpoints for the rest of

1:11:21

our lives. Like, it's a privilege to get to

1:11:23

grow and read and learn

1:11:26

and listen to new opinions

1:11:28

and And

1:11:30

I don't know. And I also feel like when we

1:11:32

get to a place where

1:11:34

we are totally ingrained in

1:11:36

our inner truth, like, we know. you

1:11:38

know, it's at our core. We know

1:11:41

this is my truth.

1:11:43

We're not gonna be triggered

1:11:45

by people anymore. when we get to that place,

1:11:47

we're gonna let people live their lives

1:11:50

and we're gonna know what to

1:11:52

do to further

1:11:52

our own cause or to fight

1:11:55

for what we believe in.

1:11:56

But when we really arrive

1:11:58

at that deep, deep, deep alignment, the outside, like, little

1:12:01

stuff, like, what

1:12:04

strangers do people I've never met

1:12:06

do, people on the Internet do, it's not gonna bother us

1:12:08

anymore. And

1:12:10

I think that's my whole, like,

1:12:12

big takeaway from this

1:12:14

is I am not bothered

1:12:16

by vegans telling

1:12:19

me I shouldn't be eating animal

1:12:21

foods. I'm not bothered by that because I'm in that place

1:12:23

of truth where I just know. I'm not

1:12:25

wavering, thinking to

1:12:28

go back, Was this wrong? I'm

1:12:30

I'm not at all. I'm not triggered by any of that or or upset about any of that.

1:12:32

What I'm triggered

1:12:35

by is the viciousness. like,

1:12:38

absolutely, the personal attacks,

1:12:40

like, the talk about my family. Like,

1:12:42

I'm that I'm absolutely triggered