0:00

Hello . So I'm Nicola

0:02

Blundin . I'm a therapist

0:05

counsellor based in South Wales

0:07

, teaching Bristol , and

0:09

I'm here to facilitate a conversation

0:12

between Maya Rakan and

0:14

Meg Cooper about

0:16

your experiences in

0:19

the counselling world , and we're focusing

0:21

particularly on the experience of being a

0:23

Muslim person , a Jewish person and

0:27

thinking about your kind of lived

0:29

experience of that . And

0:31

I'm hoping to provide some

0:33

kind of facilitation so that there's someone

0:36

asking questions , someone being curious

0:38

. I'm a

0:41

white woman , working class woman , kind

0:45

of aware that I come in as a white person

0:47

into the discussion , just wanting to make space

0:49

for both of you . Welcome to listeners

0:52

in

0:54

this conversation and perhaps I'll just hand over

0:56

to you , maya Rakan and Meg , to

0:58

talk about , introduce yourselves for a minute

1:00

or so and then we'll go

1:02

into the conversation .

1:04

Myira Khan- yeah , thanks , nicola . Yeah

1:06

, so I'm Myira Khan . I'm a accredited

1:09

counsellor supervisor and

1:11

I also deliver training on workshops specifically

1:14

or specialising in anti-oppressive

1:16

practice . I

1:20

think in terms of an introduction that's

1:22

kind of me professionally . But I think what also

1:24

comes with that professionally is also visibly

1:26

aspects of Maya's entity as well

1:28

, as I'm visibly a Muslim woman

1:31

. I wear the hijab . I

1:33

have founded and I run , I'm

1:35

the CEO of the MCAPN

1:37

, the Muslim Council . It's like a therapist network

1:40

. But I'm very much here today

1:42

in the position as an individual practitioner

1:45

. What I'm going to be sharing today

1:47

or thinking about together in dialogue with yourself

1:49

, nicola and Meg , is very much kind of my

1:51

individual experience . So nothing I

1:53

say here is representative of the network

1:56

or of members generally . Thank

1:59

you , Myira Khan .

2:00

Thanks .

2:02

Yeah , so my name's Mick Cooper . I'm a

2:04

professor of counselling psychology at

2:06

the University of Rhyampton in London and

2:09

a practicing psychologist and psychotherapy

2:12

researcher . I

2:15

guess for me , I

2:18

came to this dialogue , I

2:20

thought about it a long time . I

2:23

identify as Jewish . I'm not

2:25

religious , but

2:29

I identify very much as Jewish

2:31

and culturally Jewish , and maybe that's something we

2:33

want to talk about . And

2:36

seeing what was happening in Israel

2:38

and Palestine

2:41

and Palestinian territories , and being

2:43

horrified by the violence

2:46

and the destructiveness there

2:48

in

2:52

both ways both

2:56

the initial attack and then also

2:58

the violence

3:00

of the Israeli response and I think

3:02

for me I spent a long time thinking about

3:05

how is

3:07

it possible to have a dialogue and talk

3:09

about it

3:12

from Jewish to Islam

3:14

, from Jewish to Muslim perspectives

3:16

, to try and begin

3:19

some dialogue Just

3:22

about the difference . Obviously it's not a complete

3:24

dialogue but just something that could open

3:26

some communication in

3:29

a way that I know does

3:31

happen . But also , I guess I felt like I

3:33

wanted to see

3:37

where I could say that and Maya is something

3:39

I know and have enormous respect for in a professional

3:41

field and felt

3:44

like somebody I wanted to reach out to see

3:46

if she would be interested in having this dialogue , to

3:49

explore some of these issues and

3:52

we talked about , particularly maybe in the counseling field

3:55

. I'm not a kind of political

3:58

expert in any way or kind of expert on world

4:00

affairs , but I think , speaking

4:03

personally and to have a dialogue which was about

4:05

us talking personally about what it meant to be being

4:07

Jewish , what it meant to be being Muslim

4:10

, what that meant to our mental well-being

4:12

and our psychological functioning , to

4:15

maybe enhance

4:17

that understanding . Obviously

4:20

, as Maury saying , I'm not speaking

4:22

for all Jews . I'm very much

4:24

a secular , progressive

4:27

Jew . I feel

4:29

very different

4:32

from Netanyahu

4:35

and much more right-wing perspectives . It feels

4:37

very alien to me , but I do feel very Jewish

4:40

.

4:42

Yeah , thank you . So I

4:44

suppose yeah . So that brings us to maybe the

4:46

background to this conversation and

4:50

maybe what you would both

4:52

want to come from this conversation

4:54

and

4:57

why you're having this conversation . I

4:59

guess and I'm thinking about that in terms of

5:01

maybe more widely like

5:03

, what might this conversation be able

5:05

to contribute or do or offer

5:08

? But also maybe personally

5:11

, what you would

5:13

like to come from the conversation

5:15

or something that is going

5:18

to be helpful to you in some way or

5:20

interesting . And then

5:22

perhaps I'll ask

5:24

you , maura , yeah

5:27

, great question .

5:30

I think I want to start by saying for

5:33

me , I think this is about intention , and

5:35

I think I can really resonate with

5:37

what Mick says about wanting to have this dialogue

5:39

, because I feel like , as

5:42

a Muslim practitioner , as a visible Muslim

5:44

practitioner in the field , I suppose

5:46

I'm looking at this from two perspectives

5:48

. I think one is . So my intention

5:50

is basically kind of a two-fold . I think

5:53

one is that we're actually being open

5:55

about our

5:57

experiences in the profession

6:00

at a time when we

6:02

are watching , we are witnessing such

6:04

trauma , destruction , violence

6:07

, and it is a genocide . So

6:09

I think for me , one

6:11

of my two intentions is to be able to have

6:13

that open conversation about , as practitioners

6:16

, what is that experience and what is that impact

6:19

, so not only on us as individual practitioners

6:21

, but also perhaps on our clinical practice

6:23

and what does it mean to be supporting

6:25

clients that are also bringing this into

6:27

our clinical rooms as well . And

6:30

I think my second intention and I think

6:32

this very much again resonates with what Mick

6:34

was saying I think in having this dialogue , it's

6:37

about being able to have that conversation

6:39

across the face rather

6:43

than a conversation happening within each of

6:45

our own faith communities , where actually

6:47

I think this kind of interfaith

6:49

dialogue , from

6:51

a place of openness and authenticity

6:53

and vulnerability , I think

6:55

is really needed as well

6:58

to be able to

7:00

share what our experiences have

7:02

been and are and our experiences

7:05

continue to be , but in a way

7:07

actually that feels kind of co-productive and collaborative .

7:13

Yeah , so partly in response to world

7:15

events , but your personal

7:17

response to that , the impact on you , the

7:19

impact on your work and your clients , and

7:23

doing that in a dialogical

7:25

way , in a way that's kind of in relationship

7:27

, and

7:30

I guess you getting out of that kind of an

7:32

opportunity to reflect on , on

7:35

your experience and have this dialogue across faiths

7:37

or across identity

7:40

.

7:42

Yeah , absolutely , and I think it's

7:44

really important to acknowledge and I'm sure

7:46

this will come up in our dialogue but at

7:48

a time where politics in the political

7:51

field is so divisive , I

7:53

think there's also something here about within

7:56

the profession itself . The

7:58

profession can start to feel divisive as well

8:00

, and when there are

8:02

calls for organizations or professional

8:05

bodies that are either doing something or not doing something

8:07

, when they get called out as being

8:09

anti-Semitic or then it's an apophobic

8:11

and it's like that's what

8:14

those things are kind of happening , I think it's

8:16

really important again that we actually take time

8:18

to actually think about what that's actually

8:21

about and not to get pulled

8:23

into these kinds of

8:25

polarity positions , but

8:27

rather kind of again finding place for

8:30

commonality and finding a position

8:32

to go actually . Can we talk through what's

8:34

actually happening in the field right now ?

8:38

Thank you , myra , mick

8:41

, if I , can ask you the same

8:43

thing , what your hopes are or your intentions

8:45

are .

8:46

It's so interesting to hear what Myra is saying

8:48

. I think

8:50

for me , one of it is just to understand more

8:52

about the Muslim experience

8:55

and how it is to be a Muslim

8:57

in the world and in the counseling world

8:59

. I think I know I realize

9:02

, going into this that my understanding

9:04

is pretty limited and I'd like

9:06

to understand more about that

9:08

and , I think , some

9:11

of the nuances about

9:14

that and then how

9:16

that , I guess how that then relates to

9:18

the Jewish . There's things about being Jewish

9:20

that I'd like to share and talk about and

9:22

be trying to be open

9:24

and transparent about that , because I

9:26

think sometimes that isn't totally

9:28

understood . So I guess there's something about sharing

9:30

and again , some of the nuances of that and

9:33

what it means to be Jewish , and

9:36

then also to explore some of the projections

9:38

and the counter projections , some of the assumptions

9:41

or not assumptions , and

9:43

then how that between Muslims

9:46

, jews , how that gets

9:48

kind of mixed up , and maybe to untangle

9:51

some of that I think maybe that's a good way of putting it actually

9:53

is to untangle some of that , as Ma'ru

9:55

is talking about , so that we

9:57

can be

9:59

clear about how we relate to each other

10:01

and find ways of relating that are kind of

10:03

more productive . I guess I believe very deeply

10:05

that we're all fundamentally

10:08

human , that culture is really important

10:10

, but we

10:12

are all fundamentally human with the same

10:15

needs and the same

10:17

wants to find

10:19

ways of thriving . And

10:22

I think , coming

10:24

, I guess , from a humanistic place , I think people

10:27

, basically intentions

10:29

, are good , but it can get

10:31

very messed up and what starts

10:33

off as good can end up being incredibly destructive

10:35

.

10:38

I was thinking , as you were talking

10:40

about that , about kind of the human meeting

10:42

and disentangling kind of

10:44

maybe the human , the

10:47

kind of deeper existential meeting or

10:49

human meeting , and then disentangling

10:52

that from the stories , the cultural stories

10:54

that kind of we're

10:56

bound up in and

10:58

we bind each other up in , and

11:00

it made me think about the place

11:02

of faith in this as well , or

11:04

a humanistic perspective or

11:06

a faith perspective , and how that might be different

11:09

and similar to

11:11

cultural identity as well . So that might

11:13

be something that we come back to . But is

11:15

there , before we kind of get into that

11:17

experience , your individual experiences

11:19

, is there something that you both

11:21

, I mean , what would you need or want

11:24

from me and from each other to have

11:26

a good conversation ? What

11:28

would be helpful

11:30

to be able to get into that disentangling

11:32

?

11:38

I think for me , the

11:42

biggest aspect of this , I

11:44

think , is that openness and

11:47

I always go back to that principle

11:50

of two truths . You know , when you're in conversation

11:52

with somebody , it's the ability

11:55

to sit with , kind of being able to hold your own

11:57

truth , what simultaneously being

11:59

able to hold somebody else's truth and

12:03

I think I already know that we're going to

12:05

do that because obviously I've kind of , you

12:07

know , having worked with both of you before

12:09

and knowing both of you , that's something

12:11

that I think you both always offer anyway

12:14

, and I think that's something that I

12:17

think that's kind of even more needed , because I think , actually

12:19

I suppose that's exactly what we're talking about today

12:22

is what are our truths

12:24

and

12:26

how can we then think about our truths

12:29

and hold them all equally respectfully

12:31

and equally of value ?

12:34

Yeah , yeah .

12:36

That's so well put , myra . And

12:38

yeah , I think something about that openness

12:40

, that transparency and I think , nicola , you're support

12:43

for that and questions and inquiry

12:46

, but also kind of the holding

12:48

and the care that

12:51

you know we're opening up quite vulnerable areas

12:54

and I want to speak

12:56

from a place of vulnerability , but that's

12:58

also scary .

13:01

Yeah , yeah , and of course we're

13:03

aware the whole time that this isn't just a private

13:05

conversation , so there's always like the feeling

13:08

actually of how it , how of the listener

13:10

right , and how the listener might , might

13:12

receive this . Maybe

13:14

there's something about asking the listener to hold that

13:16

openness about truth as well , that it's that

13:19

you're speaking to your truth from a kind of a vulnerable

13:21

place , and to hold that in some care as

13:23

well , as the listener is listening , would

13:25

be really helpful . Okay

13:28

, so perhaps should we start then by talking

13:30

about so , mick , you said one of the big things

13:32

you were curious about was Myra's experience

13:35

as a Muslim woman . I wonder

13:37

if that would be a way in to

13:39

the conversation , if you're happy with that , myra

13:41

. So , like , what's your

13:44

experience of being a Muslim woman in the counseling

13:46

community at this time ? You

13:48

know , in this kind of

13:52

that's happening ?

13:53

Yeah , I think

13:55

the

13:59

word that keeps kind of going around in my head is this

14:01

word representation . And

14:03

the reason that word

14:05

is kind of like floating around my head I think it's for a number

14:08

of reasons , because I

14:10

think when you

14:12

represent , or when I represent

14:14

, or when anybody represents

14:16

a particular marginalized or minoritized

14:19

community , I think

14:21

representation becomes

14:24

quite a big

14:27

, heavy , pressurized

14:30

, burdensome word

14:32

or concept . And

14:34

so , in thinking about my experience , the

14:36

reason I think the word representation

14:39

comes to mind is because my very first

14:41

experience in entering the profession which

14:43

is now scary thought , but it's like 14

14:45

, almost 15 years ago , when I started

14:48

my training , I did

14:50

not see or come across a single other Muslim

14:52

practitioner . And

14:56

and I suppose the reason I start there

14:58

is because I think where

15:01

that , where I was and how I

15:03

experienced that , like 14 , 15 years

15:05

ago , to where , to how I now

15:07

feel about that , it's like

15:09

it's such a big

15:12

divide between the two . I feel like it's been

15:14

such a journey . So , and

15:17

I always start with that experience

15:19

, because for me , that experience

15:22

of being the only

15:24

person of color , by the time I got to

15:26

my final year on my training course , there

15:29

was no person of color who was on

15:31

the tutor team , there was no person

15:33

of color who was in

15:36

the placement that I was in for three years , what

15:38

I was training there was no person of

15:40

color who was a qualified counselor working

15:42

in the placement either . So

15:45

for me , being a Muslim

15:47

practitioner , my experience was oh

15:49

, I'm the only one , and

15:52

where are the other Muslim practitioners

15:54

? And and so

15:56

all of a sudden this , this feeling

15:58

of representation , it's

16:01

I've kind of a relationship

16:03

with that concept of representation

16:05

from the moment I started my training

16:07

, because from the get go I'm

16:10

represented as the only Muslim on my course

16:12

to them , being the only Muslim

16:14

, and then becoming the only person of color

16:16

on my course and then in my place

16:18

, and then it wasn't there in

16:20

, as I said , in the tutor team , the teaching team or

16:23

in the qualified counselors . So

16:25

for me representation comes from being the only

16:28

to now , kind of

16:30

14 , 15 years on , it

16:32

means something else to me . My experience

16:34

now is , as

16:38

a Muslim practitioner in the field

16:40

, my

16:42

, I don't . I wouldn't say I automatically

16:45

become the person

16:47

who represents , but I think I get positioned

16:50

like that a lot of the time and

16:52

obviously that is is going to be

16:55

reinforced by my position of

16:57

having founded and running the MCAP

16:59

and the Muslim Council network . But

17:03

I think for me it becomes a lot more nuanced than

17:05

that . It's not just a case of I'm here representing

17:07

Muslim practitioners if I'm in any particular

17:10

professional space . I think

17:12

it's also about me

17:14

having to navigate that position

17:17

or assumption or projection , like I'm

17:19

having to be really explicit

17:21

like I did in my introduction . Am

17:24

I here representing a

17:26

Muslim network ? Am I here representing

17:28

a Muslim community ? Am

17:31

I here representing Muslim practitioners or am I here representing

17:33

myself ? And I think that

17:35

responsibility alone

17:38

me , the very fact that I'm having

17:40

to be conscious and explicit and

17:42

intentional about whether

17:44

I'm representing myself or representing

17:47

a Muslim community , I think

17:49

is is absolutely

17:51

kind of reflective of the fact that that's

17:53

my experience as a Muslim woman . Is

17:55

there any space I go into ? I

17:58

automatically , by default

18:00

, become this representation

18:02

, and I think that , and

18:05

I think there are advantages and disadvantages to

18:07

that . I think there are advantages around just

18:09

being representative and having a voice in the room and in

18:11

that space . But the disadvantage

18:14

then is that where does representation

18:16

stop and my restarts

18:19

does that make sense ? It's a bit like at what

18:21

points will I go ? Actually , I can just speak for myself

18:23

and

18:25

or where am I speaking on behalf

18:27

of a community ? So I can't be

18:30

individual or share personal

18:32

experiences , but

18:35

that's why I'm so conscious today that I'm here

18:37

as my right . I'm not here as a

18:39

representation of my network

18:42

or of Muslim practitioners generally , or

18:44

of a Muslim community .

18:47

Can I ? It's so evocative

18:50

what you're saying , but I just really want to understand a bit

18:52

more , like just going back 15

18:54

years to when you're talking about being

18:56

the only Muslim on the training

18:59

course and what you're describing

19:01

is something about feeling a pressure

19:03

to represent . Or can

19:06

you say a little bit more about what that , what

19:08

I was like and what that means and

19:11

how that was for you ?

19:14

I think at that time I

19:18

didn't feel the pressure to represent

19:20

as in actually proactively represent by speaking

19:22

up or doing anything , but I think , just physically

19:25

in the room I was a representation of

19:27

being Muslim , being

19:29

from a technically minoritised

19:31

background , being a brown woman

19:34

. So I think representation 15

19:36

years ago was physically being

19:38

in the room and physically representing a community

19:40

, a marginalized community . What

19:44

I felt more of then , what

19:47

I felt more then and less now is , I think

19:49

, because I was then the only one in

19:52

these spaces . In those spaces is

19:54

, rather than representation

19:57

, I was really sat with

19:59

the sense of do I belong in those spaces

20:01

? So representation

20:03

was there , but more like

20:05

a secondary background issue

20:09

For me . What I felt so

20:11

much more viscerally and so much more relationally

20:13

was oh , do I belong in these spaces

20:16

? Am I being understood ? Am

20:19

I ? I always felt

20:21

kind of , I felt a great weight

20:23

of judgment of am I going to be good enough

20:25

? Will this woman in

20:27

a hijab , who comes from a marginalized

20:30

background , community , ethnically

20:33

, racially

20:36

, from a faith minoritised community , the fact

20:38

that I had all of these oppressed kind

20:41

of identities . I felt

20:43

more pressure to feel like I really

20:45

had to kind of step up . So for

20:47

me . It came from a feeling of I

20:49

don't know if I belong in this profession . I

20:52

don't know if there is space for me . I

20:54

don't know if I'm going to be taken seriously . I don't

20:56

know if I'm ever going to be seen as

20:58

as good as next

21:02

to white colleagues or to non-Muslim colleagues

21:04

, people that were not visibly Muslim

21:06

. So I very much had to question

21:08

whether this profession was swimming , whether I belonged

21:10

in it or not .

21:13

I think from what I've heard from other people from

21:15

marginalized groups , that is often the

21:17

experience

21:20

. Do I belong in my part of this training

21:22

? What

21:25

was the ? It's okay to ask . What kind

21:27

of response did you get ? What was the

21:29

context ? Was that supported ? Did

21:31

you feel the trainers and other colleagues understood

21:33

that ? Did you feel that it was ignored

21:35

?

21:37

It was never acknowledged . At

21:39

no point did a tutor

21:42

or a counselor in the

21:45

team that I was in placement

21:47

with no one acknowledged

21:49

what's

21:51

that like for you to be brown

21:54

, to be ethnically minoritized , to be the only

21:56

Muslim . It was never acknowledged and

21:58

interestingly I write about this in my kind of intro

22:01

to my book that experience

22:03

of them being the only , as

22:05

well as how working

22:08

or how working with diversity

22:10

, was taught . Because I think that has

22:12

fundamentally shaped an influence then

22:14

why I do what I do in the profession

22:16

as white set up the network . It's why I teach diversity

22:19

, it's why I teach anti-oppressive practice

22:21

, because my direct

22:23

experience of being Muslim in

22:25

the field was I then was

22:28

not being acknowledged , my identity was

22:30

not being acknowledged . I was not being acknowledged by what I could

22:32

bring to the profession or what I could bring

22:34

to each client . I worked with

22:37

the

22:39

culture , the lived experience

22:41

, the understanding of my faith , the other

22:43

faiths of other cultures . None of

22:45

it was ever acknowledged . I was almost

22:48

, I think that way treated no

22:50

differently to

22:53

every other student in my cohort

22:55

, where then every student then was taught or

22:58

treated with that level of neutrality

23:00

, If that makes sense , like

23:02

nothing around faith

23:04

or race was really acknowledged

23:07

, but to anybody .

23:10

What would have been helpful for you at that time .

23:15

I think , first and foremost , I think , an acknowledgement

23:18

of each of our

23:20

identities , and that includes all students , but all

23:23

tutors . When

23:25

I was on placement and I was having in-house supervision

23:27

in my placement as well , they're

23:31

being kind of for me , the first step being that acknowledgement

23:33

of who we are as individuals in our

23:35

unique intersectional identities . But

23:38

when none of that is spoken about , how

23:42

can we possibly start to get more

23:44

nuanced and to have a better understanding

23:46

of how our

23:48

identity impacts the work or impacts

23:51

our relationships ? If tutors are saying

23:53

we don't need to think about it , as a student

23:55

I'm probably sat there going well , I therefore

23:57

don't need to think about it . I

24:00

think there's something about to

24:03

me . This takes me to a point of as

24:05

trainers , as tutors , as

24:07

people that run counselling services , especially when

24:10

we offer student placements . We

24:12

have a huge responsibility then to bring into

24:14

the space and to acknowledge and be

24:17

invitational in the space of people's

24:19

identities , because we're

24:21

modelling something , and I guess what it comes down

24:23

to is it just was never modelled on

24:25

my training .

24:27

And there's something you're describing there that I've found quite powerful

24:29

about . Also your kind of knowledge

24:31

and your expertise was lost

24:34

because you didn't recognise that

24:36

actually you brought all this richness from your culture

24:38

that for all clients

24:40

, but particularly groups of clients , could

24:42

be really important , and that

24:45

just wasn't . That

24:47

was lost .

24:49

Yeah , yeah , absolutely

24:51

so . I think there's something here about

24:54

when it doesn't get acknowledged

24:56

. I think there's something about almost

24:59

like a very simple equation . It's like not

25:02

acknowledging or unacknowledged equals

25:04

unimportant or

25:06

insignificant . I think that's kind of at the very

25:09

basic level , a very general , simplified

25:11

level . I think that's what's happening

25:13

in the profession , that if we're not acknowledging

25:15

something , we are saying that it's unimportant

25:18

, insignificant .

25:22

Do you feel there needs to be ? I

25:24

guess somebody might argue , but you

25:26

could have talked about that if you'd wanted to , but

25:29

there's something about that need for an invitation

25:31

isn't there . I guess as a trainee it's not easy

25:33

just to put those things out there .

25:38

Yeah , it's really hard to look back and go because obviously I'm a different

25:40

person now . So now of course , I'm

25:42

absolutely going right , we need to talk about this

25:45

. But at the time there's something about if

25:47

the tutors , in their positions of power

25:50

, are not creating the space

25:52

for it , students

25:54

then are going to find it really

25:56

hard , and I found it then really

25:58

hard to then create space

26:00

for it , because we are at in that respect

26:02

to students . We're at the mercy of the curriculum and the timetable

26:05

and what the tutors' agendas

26:07

are what they have to do

26:09

in that session . So

26:11

it was incredible At the time

26:13

it felt like things

26:15

are not being acknowledged here that I'm just sat

26:17

there really just completely befuddled

26:20

by going . I just didn't understand . It

26:22

was just so confusing for me . It's

26:24

like I don't understand why this isn't being

26:26

spoken about .

26:29

Yeah , sorry to jump in , but it's

26:31

really making me think about how you're kind of . One

26:34

of the things that you talk about Myra is like what am I

26:36

to you , right , who am I

26:38

to you ? And I was thinking about how

26:40

you're kind of forced into this position from the outset

26:43

of being the Muslim woman

26:45

. And

26:47

where's Myra ? Because

26:49

Myra is the Muslim woman in the room

26:51

. But at the same time , your identity as a Muslim

26:53

woman isn't brought into the space . So

26:55

you're kind of you're kind of you're neither

26:58

Myra nor the Muslim woman . In some

27:00

ways you just relate it to as as

27:02

just a representative rather than as a person

27:04

with something rich and important

27:07

, valuable to offer . And

27:09

how invisible in some ways that

27:11

you become in that , in that positioning .

27:14

Yeah , absolutely . There's something about my

27:16

identity gets kind of concentrated down

27:18

to or minimized down to

27:20

yes , I'm Muslim , I'm in the

27:22

room , but it absolutely then

27:24

becomes the elephant in the room as well . It's

27:27

like it's there but it's not spoken about

27:29

.

27:29

Yeah , what

27:35

could the tutor have said ? I'm thinking practically

27:37

what would be , because I think one of

27:40

the concerns maybe that tutors

27:42

have is not wanting to spotlight

27:44

a student that might feel uncomfortable

27:47

with being spotlit , not wanting

27:49

to position someone as the only person of color and

27:53

having to speak to that , because that can also be

27:55

a really unfair burden on a student , just

27:57

in practical terms for people listening

28:00

. How would you , what would you say ? How would you raise

28:02

that

28:05

in a way that is non-pressing

28:07

?

28:07

Yeah , I think for me this is about these conversations , conversations

28:12

about inviting people to share their identities and

28:14

to share their experience of being in the

28:18

group . It's part and

28:20

parcel of what , where and how training actually needs to evolve and develop . It's

28:23

why I'm so passionate about teaching diversity and

28:25

identity in a way that's

28:28

embedded in the curriculum

28:34

. The conversation to go I think I was speaking to a

28:36

tutor just the other week , actually about

28:39

I

28:41

gave , so this is a very specific practical example

28:44

here . Then I said when students come week

28:47

one , session one , and you want to go around the room and do introductions

28:50

, why

28:52

don't you invite people to , yes , introduce

28:54

themselves , but get them to say

28:56

their name , offer

28:58

ways of supporting people to pronounce

29:01

their name properly and that might be

29:03

phonetically right on the blackboard or whiteboard

29:05

, but also then share the narrative

29:07

and story behind their name . Because

29:11

by people that say

29:13

because for me , that's about them inviting your identity

29:15

into the room , because we are so relate

29:17

, we are so connected to our names , because

29:21

we might introduce ourselves as our formal

29:23

name . It might be a nickname , it might be shortened version

29:25

, whatever it might be . What we're

29:28

starting to do is invite our identity into the

29:30

room , invite our narrative and lived experience

29:32

in the room , and if that's week

29:34

one , can you imagine at the beginning of your training you're

29:37

being valued and honored for who

29:39

you are straight away . That

29:42

, for me , just sets the groundwork

29:44

to then have conversations about bringing

29:46

in the rest of your identity . So when

29:48

we then come to do the

29:50

modules or the particular terms

29:53

, whatever it might be in your timetables I'm

29:55

thinking about identity , different

29:57

aspects of identity students

30:00

then are already present . So

30:03

for me it's not even about jumping

30:06

into wrong

30:09

. Your identities are in the room

30:11

. It's set out from week

30:13

one by inviting people to be

30:15

their individual selves in the room first

30:18

. If there had been an invitation to go , myra

30:21

, tell us about . How do you pronounce your name ? Because I know

30:24

the spelling of my name can confuse people . The I in the

30:26

middle is silent , but what's

30:28

the story behind it ? How did you get named that way ? How

30:30

did the spelling come about ? All

30:32

of a sudden , then , what I'm sharing is part of my culture

30:34

, part of my family

30:37

dynamics , part of my lived experience

30:39

, and I think that's

30:42

just a beautiful way to allow people to

30:44

be in a very containing

30:46

teaching environment that values

30:49

the individuals that are in the room

30:51

rather than as being just representative of

30:54

visible communities .

30:57

It's beautiful , Myra . Thank you . It's a really , really helpful

30:59

way to begin , isn't it ? So I'm wondering

31:03

, Mick , kind of maybe

31:05

what you're sitting within response , but maybe

31:07

what's been different or the same

31:09

as a tuition

31:12

experience .

31:13

Yeah , and one of the things where

31:15

Myra and I first started having this conversation

31:18

was realizing that there's

31:20

similarities and there's real differences and

31:23

that's where so much of the nuances come

31:25

in . So I think the thing about my experience

31:27

as a Jewish person in

31:29

training it

31:33

certainly wasn't ever talked about , there

31:35

certainly wasn't ever any space

31:37

in the way that Myra is saying . And if there'd been an exercise

31:39

like that to introduce my name , I could

31:41

have talked about my grandfather

31:43

and the kind of Ukrainian

31:45

and kind of Polish

31:48

and German Jewish heritage

31:50

that I have probably would have talked

31:52

about losing family

31:54

members in the Holocaust and

31:58

that kind of culture

32:00

of the shtetl in East

32:03

Europe . So it would have been a really good introduction

32:05

to that . And

32:08

I think probably in my training I did talk a

32:10

bit about it , about being Jewish , you

32:12

know , in PD groups and things , but it was

32:14

never really kind of addressed

32:16

. I think being

32:20

I mean , I very much identify

32:22

as white and I think there's real differences

32:24

in what Myra is talking about . In that Myra

32:27

you saying about being visibly different and

32:29

I think you know for me people

32:31

my name is Jewish . I put it on my Facebook

32:33

but people wouldn't necessarily identify

32:36

me as Jewish , which

32:39

means that there's a different journey

32:41

. It's a different journey , you know , there's something about

32:43

it's not spoken . There's

32:46

the same kind of not spokenness . There's the same

32:48

kind of not the opportunity

32:50

to really immerse and

32:52

evolve what that means and what it what

32:55

it's like to be Jewish in the world

32:57

, in in the community . But there's also

32:59

a privilege , I think , as a whiteness , that

33:02

I can pass , and

33:04

I do generally pass as part of the white

33:06

kind of community

33:08

that doesn't have to kind

33:10

of explain itself and

33:12

it , and so I didn't have that experience

33:14

of feeling a

33:17

kind of I'm the only one here

33:19

. Quite in the same

33:21

way , I think there was something

33:24

about , there's something about

33:26

that Jewishness

33:29

for me is it is about

33:31

difference and I do feel different

33:33

from kind of why . I mean my kids talk

33:35

about the normies , which I don't really

33:37

like , but there's a sense of being different

33:39

from the normies in the sense that I

33:42

don't feel English , I

33:44

do feel from a different background

33:47

, I do feel from a different world

33:49

of how

33:51

things were done . So I don't feel like I

33:53

quite fit in , but I can slip

33:56

into that and I

33:58

don't have to face other people

34:00

seeing me as different , which

34:02

I think makes makes a big difference

34:05

, but I think there is . There

34:07

is kind of a downside to that . I mean , it's

34:09

not of a similar magnitude , but I think there's

34:11

something about being Jewish that means that

34:13

people can

34:15

make , or

34:18

there's , an anxiety around , anti

34:20

Semitism , the

34:22

people

34:24

I mean I've been in professional environments

34:27

where people have made anti Semitic comments

34:29

and they just wouldn't

34:31

know that I was Jewish , so it just passes

34:34

because you know it's just . You

34:36

know , yeah , it passes

34:39

. And I think , and I think as a Jewish person

34:41

, then one of the things I carry is a constant

34:44

anxiety about

34:46

anti Semitism and

34:50

it's like a kind of open wound

34:53

. There's a caution and

34:55

I'm really aware that , like

34:57

when I'm around Jewish people

34:59

or people who you know , not religiously Jewish

35:02

, but people who are culturally Jewish

35:04

, there's my

35:06

blood pressure goes down like two or

35:08

three , whatever points . There's just

35:10

something that relaxes that I don't feel

35:13

so anxious about having to

35:16

face just little

35:18

anti Semitic comments . Just , you know Jews

35:20

this , and that I mean at school I had that . I guess

35:22

there's a . There was a kind of history of

35:24

kind of not

35:26

terrible bullying but certainly anti

35:28

Semitic comments at school that were painful

35:31

. And you know Jews killed Jesus

35:33

and you know , jew was

35:35

always a word for tight and mean

35:37

and you know , even , for instance , if I'm in a

35:39

, if I'm in an environment like a counseling

35:42

environment and people start talking about money , I

35:45

start feeling a bit anxious . You know

35:47

, I can feel just like my blood pressure rising because

35:49

I'm just wondering if somebody's going to say

35:51

you know Jewish , this Jewish , that

35:53

. So I think that hiddenness kind

35:56

of there's an alertness

35:58

and and and and

36:01

I think if it , if there've been the space

36:03

, like you say , to talk about culture , to talk about

36:06

what it means to be Jewish , to put it out there

36:08

in some ways , that would have felt better

36:10

. In some ways , though I don't

36:13

know . Like I think , when I I think when

36:15

I did put it out then , when I did talk about

36:17

it , it was kind of left unspoken

36:21

and there's

36:25

something about neutrality isn't

36:27

reassuring . I don't know if that's a bit like

36:29

what you are saying , but there's something about

36:31

the neutrality and and they're kind

36:33

of what I might even use to become an English

36:36

whiteness . That

36:38

I just is quite difficult to

36:40

read and I don't know

36:42

what one of the things I'm aware of is . I

36:44

don't know what people are kind of thinking

36:46

me . I don't know what being Jewish means and

36:49

I don't think people are . I'm

36:51

not sure if people would be honest about

36:53

that . Like you

36:56

know , when I sam jish , what is that vote ? What

36:58

does word do you vote ? You

37:00

know we have the kind of implicit bias association

37:03

test with black people that show , you

37:05

know , really powerful associations with

37:07

blackness , brownness and negative images

37:10

. I kind of imagine that , in the same

37:12

way that racism is always there , the

37:15

anti-semitism Is

37:17

there . It's a , you know , it's a kind

37:19

of given . I think I don't actually know

37:22

, and I think there's there's

37:24

an on knowing us about that . That is , I'm

37:27

not even an uncanny and taps

37:29

into . I'm

37:31

taps into a

37:33

past that is just

37:36

under the surface of the

37:38

show of the holocaust , victimization

37:41

, persecution that just goes

37:44

back generation after generation after

37:46

generation , so that all the on the surface

37:48

, I guess there's a sense of being white and

37:50

being part of a privileged white Majority

37:54

, which I feel and isn't , you know

37:56

that is a reality . I think and these

37:58

different from you know , black and brown people

38:00

have to experience something different . There

38:03

is also traces and nuances

38:05

of something and I think sometimes

38:08

I doesn't get seen the whole debate about

38:10

cool within the labor party and

38:12

anti-semitism . I , you know

38:14

, I don't think I said you don't think I was

38:16

a rabid anti-semit , but I think

38:18

there was some non

38:20

recognition of some of those

38:23

sensitivities and something

38:25

of what gets triggered and and

38:28

in some of the current debates I think that

38:30

is there and

38:33

is no way an excuse for the , for

38:35

the horrors that are going on . But

38:37

I think for me , those sensitivities

38:40

around jues being , you

38:42

know , I have in my mind that

38:45

you know , if you look at not see propaganda

38:47

and that image of you know you've

38:49

seen it that kind of octopus or the , all

38:52

, that image of the kind of jues greedy

38:54

, big nose , do you control

38:57

in the world . You know that that that's

38:59

very internal . I have that in my car

39:01

, that and it's painful and it means

39:03

that there's a sensitivity

39:06

around that . I the last

39:08

time I got really angry with somebody who

39:10

is my

39:12

, my , my daughter was in the show they

39:14

were doing all of our and I said to

39:16

the person who's doing the show do you really want to do

39:18

all of it ? Is a really nasty anti-semit

39:21

, you know character . That , like

39:23

much in the venice , do

39:25

you really want to have a game

39:27

? And we have this company . They were very kind

39:29

of woke theater company , lots

39:32

of stuff with kids and very , you know , do wonderful

39:34

stuff around disabilities . But I said you really want

39:36

to do that ? They said

39:38

no , tell the kids about anti-semitism , we won't

39:40

be educational . And

39:43

when I , when I saw the show , there was just

39:45

a game comes on as just these Terrible

39:49

jewish stereotype

39:51

. It was so , on this thing with the kind of jewish , you

39:54

know , when the hats and talking

39:56

like this and where's all my money

39:58

? You know , I was so hot , I was really upset

40:01

, really angry , and

40:04

it felt like to talk

40:06

about that and to raise that was it

40:08

was difficult . It touched on

40:10

that kind of real sensitivity

40:12

about what it means to be jewish . Yeah

40:17

, and and so , so , so

40:19

, yeah , so different experience , but

40:23

also , yeah , and the differences

40:25

, I think are really important and I think that's part of the

40:27

dialogue . You know , nicola , what you saying about what we

40:29

have in this dialogue . I think part of it is to understand

40:32

some of those and I guess sometimes

40:34

not understanding those differences is why

40:36

conflict and Miss

40:39

understandings happen .

40:44

Recently I watched david deals program juice

40:46

don't count of you seen , and

40:49

one of the things he talks about is that the

40:52

kind of the stereotypical , anti-semitic

40:55

perspective is kind of talking about this kind

40:57

of powerful and

40:59

that kind of means that in that , as you said

41:01

, maybe that english whiteness gets to

41:04

, it's under the radar

41:06

or it kind of gets . People can think

41:08

it's not really racism or is it's

41:10

not really Prejudice

41:12

. But I guess what I'm hearing you saying

41:14

is you don't know when that's gonna surface

41:17

. You don't know because it's it's there kind

41:19

of all the time and you have

41:21

to be alert to when

41:23

it might come up , when someone might reveal that

41:25

, and you don't get that in spaces that

41:27

are culturally Jewish and you don't have to be yeah

41:32

, you don't have to be on the lookout for you don't have to

41:34

be protecting yourself in

41:36

the same way .

41:37

Yeah , I mean I kind of know who

41:39

in the field is jewish , or I have a sense

41:41

that you can sometimes tell by people's names

41:44

or Sometimes

41:46

, yeah , how people are . People just mannerisms

41:48

, and there's a safety

41:51

there . I think there's just

41:53

safety . I was in , I mean I remember

41:55

my twenties being in a , again , very

41:57

woke environment . It was to do

41:59

the arts and it was a meeting to

42:01

the arts and somebody says I

42:04

was something like you

42:06

know , we want to do new art , we don't want to do

42:08

art that is just informed by dead

42:11

, the old , white dead , jews

42:13

, something like that , and it was . You

42:16

know the comments do you Come

42:18

up in a way that is unexpected

42:20

and there's a there is that kind of alertness

42:23

, I think , and that sensitivity

42:25

To do it .

42:28

Yeah , yeah , I

42:31

suppose I'm also thinking about the thing about

42:33

whiteness and you identifying

42:36

as white and passing as white and others use maybe

42:38

not identifying as white or

42:40

not being identified . Certainly

42:43

, if we were in another and another kind

42:45

of Holocaust , I

42:47

guess you wouldn't be identified as white , right

42:49

you'd be .

42:50

You'd be identified as whatever the fascist

42:52

government decided to identify you , I

42:54

think that's exactly right and I think that's how

42:56

a lot of kind of jews identify

42:59

the jewishness . By what would

43:01

the Nazis have decided

43:03

? You know , even though I'm not

43:05

religious and you're right , nicola

43:08

, that you know I see the jews with the hats

43:10

. You know they're much more

43:12

identifiable and it's interesting also . I

43:14

mean they're involved in housing and it's

43:16

interesting what being done there . But

43:19

yeah , that is very different . But at the end

43:21

of the day Is a lot of juice will

43:24

say you know , if you're gonna

43:26

be , you know , taking that , send off outfits

43:28

Because you identify

43:30

as jews , because you're a jews grandparent , and then that

43:32

alertness is gonna be there .

43:34

That that's how you're gonna be kind of right and

43:36

that's a generational , that's a generational

43:39

part of the identity of being A

43:41

jewish person , that that that persecution

43:43

has followed across countries

43:45

and continents and and decade

43:49

and years and yeah

43:52

, it was .

43:52

I went to . I

43:58

went to house fits when I went there in my twenties

44:00

and I thought I'd there's a kind of music , there's a record

44:02

base there , and I went

44:04

there to see , just by chance , if

44:06

they had records of any more family . And they

44:08

did , and it was such a shock To

44:10

see these german document saying

44:13

so and so hands calm and

44:15

different people were transported . Several

44:18

members of my mom's family died in the holocaust

44:21

most just , most horrific

44:23

circumstances , and my dad's

44:25

family is going to Ukraine , persecution

44:28

, and my daughter made a film about her

44:31

. My great grandfather

44:33

, who is taken into the Russian army

44:35

, force conscripted , kidnapped , so

44:39

yeah , so there is that and it kind of

44:41

follows you . But also what follows you , nickler

44:43

, is not just that history

44:47

but also that sense

44:49

that as a jew , deserve

44:51

that . You

44:53

know that's internalized , but as a jew

44:56

, deserve that there's something that you've done wrong

44:58

. That means that as

45:00

a jew , that happen

45:03

. You know whether that's a kind of just world hypothesis

45:05

, whether that's internalizing , just that

45:07

races and whether it's a way of kind of unconscious

45:09

trying to make sense of it . But I think that's really

45:11

difficult and that's the sensitivity . You

45:14

know all that stuff and happen and there

45:16

was just cause . Of course there is . You know that's unjust

45:18

, you know that's terrible . That

45:22

would be one thing , but I think it's the shame

45:24

that comes with that , the sense of guilt

45:27

. You know , as we know from people being traumatized

45:29

and abused , that people

45:31

make sense of it in different ways and I think it's carrying

45:34

that shame around , that

45:37

persecution and the questions

45:39

. That is maybe why there is so much

45:41

part of why there's so much sensitivity

45:43

.

45:45

Yeah , I'm just wondering if you

45:48

want to respond as well .

45:51

Yeah , just fascinated

45:53

by kind of make what you're sharing , I

45:57

think . I think what's really struck me

45:59

is something about Kind

46:02

of two layers . I think is what I'm

46:04

really sat with this idea of . On

46:06

the surface , we

46:09

, in terms of identity , there's something

46:12

about my faith

46:14

is very visible in your

46:16

faith . Being being juridic is

46:18

about it kind of sits under the surface

46:20

, is not visible and being white passing

46:22

. So there's something about there's a difference

46:25

there when it comes to our visible identity

46:27

, and not just from a From

46:29

obvious difference in terms of different fades

46:31

, but I'm just talking about in terms of visibility

46:33

of our face . And yet when you

46:35

then speak about what sits under the surface , I'm sat there

46:37

going , but I'm with the same or similar . So

46:39

I think I'm really struck by this

46:41

thing about what might be seen , what

46:45

might be seen visibly , how people perceive

46:48

us , what absolutely

46:50

free to us bring along various

46:53

kind of projections and assumptions and expectations

46:56

around us People

46:58

, what people might assume we're like or

47:00

think we're like , or pigeon holes , whatever

47:02

they do through our visible identity

47:05

. But there's something that I can really resonate

47:07

with the underneath the surface , though . I think we're both

47:09

sat with History

47:12

legacy and

47:14

also in current events and times individually

47:17

with , sat with then that

47:19

experience of being oppressed and my knowledge

47:21

is marginalized and , in any given

47:23

moment , being on the receiving end of

47:26

An example book or anti-semitic

47:28

comment , to be to

47:31

hear that bias or prejudice , to

47:33

be witness to something

47:36

that is deeply oppressive

47:38

and offensive to A big

47:41

part of who we are in each of our respective

47:43

identities . So there's something here

47:45

really interesting for me which is about or want

47:47

it to , for

47:49

people just to look at the two of us visibly , to

47:51

put as an extra picture of the makers as we are on screen

47:53

right now . There's something about we

47:56

would be labelled completely differently and

47:59

yet I think , underneath the surface , we

48:01

both sit with , I think , shared

48:03

experiences , and that

48:05

is talk about that anxiety of if

48:09

you're outside of a Jewish

48:11

majority space , if you're

48:13

not around other culturally Jewish

48:15

people like you , have that increased anxiety and

48:17

I'm thinking , well , yeah

48:20

, I can really resonate with that for myself that if

48:22

I'm in , you know , a dominant

48:24

or majority Muslim space or

48:26

an all Muslim space , that

48:28

I'm not , as

48:30

I'm not going to be as a majority

48:32

. I'm modernised as them

48:34

being representative first of all

48:36

, and I'm not then going to be seen as a

48:39

more likely them to be seen

48:41

, or I am seen , then , as the individual as I am . But

48:44

there's something , then , about the moment . We are both , then , in spaces

48:46

that are non

48:48

, if I could put it like this , like non Jewish dominant and non Muslim

48:51

dominant . We're in kind of mainstream

48:53

spaces , mainstream white

48:55

spaces . Something

48:58

happens to both of us internally that

49:00

goes oh , we become all of a sudden

49:02

more sensitive to , more aware

49:05

of I'm white , hyper alert to the

49:07

potential for something to be said or

49:10

for somebody to act towards us in a way that

49:12

, then , is incredibly oppressive and

49:15

dominant and coming from a very

49:17

kind of very

49:23

primist position .

49:23

So , and I think one of the things about that is

49:25

that it puts you in a position where you have to think

49:28

. Do I want to respond ?

49:29

or not .

49:30

So it's like then you have to decide am I going to

49:32

challenge this and we're going to let it go , but

49:34

then feel really uncomfortable ? How

49:36

is this going to affect you know how I

49:38

see this person ? Like I

49:41

want to get on with this person , but I'm getting

49:43

so . It kind of makes things difficult

49:45

afterwards and there's kind of legacy

49:47

of it is not just the thing , but it's really interesting

49:49

what you say more about . So

49:52

when you're in a kind of Muslim space , do you feel

49:54

that you can be more ? Do you feel that you

49:56

can be more yourself ? Do you feel is

49:58

there also that sense of kind of relaxing ? I

50:01

think ?

50:02

there was a relaxation

50:04

in the sense of people

50:07

are more , are far more going to see me

50:09

as my rather than Muslim counselor

50:11

.

50:11

That's so interesting . That's so interesting

50:13

, so can you say more

50:16

about that ? You , so you feel that people will see

50:18

you . More is who you are .

50:20

I think there's something around my

50:23

individuality , my individual identity

50:25

, lived experiences , my own opinions

50:27

, maybe my own kind of whatever

50:30

it might be , about my passions , my hobbies , my interests

50:32

, all of that . It feels like there's some space

50:34

for me to kind of share more of who I am

50:36

, because there's

50:38

space for it , because I'm

50:40

not just being pigeonholed as

50:43

Muslim

50:45

and I can also in Muslim

50:48

majority or Muslim spaces

50:50

. I think there is also

50:53

. But actually know

50:55

, as I'm thinking that through , I think it depends which Muslim

50:57

space I'm into , be honest . But

50:59

I do think there is a greater capacity

51:02

, though , to , yes , to be

51:04

seen as an individual and

51:07

also for your experiences

51:10

and Muslim to be individual as well . But

51:12

I do think that it depends on what space you're

51:15

in , though , because equally , I'm mindful

51:17

that in some Muslim spaces there

51:19

is something then that on the flip side

51:21

, there is , I think , a pressure to conform

51:23

. There is a pressure then to be like a one

51:25

up , so it has its advantages and disadvantages

51:28

, but from a place , though , with individuality

51:30

, though I do feel that

51:32

I

51:36

definitely don't feel that immediate

51:38

burden of I'm representing

51:40

all Muslims in this space If

51:43

I'm in a Muslim dominant or majority

51:45

space , because actually we're

51:47

all representative and therefore we

51:49

were able to be . We come with

51:51

an individual identity into those spaces

51:54

first , yeah .

51:56

That's interesting . Do you feel that in

51:58

a kind of non Muslim space that

52:00

you have to hide certain

52:03

aspects of yourself ? Do you feel that you have to kind

52:05

of control things that maybe even otherwise

52:07

?

52:11

An interesting question . I think

52:13

it's situation specific . I

52:16

don't necessarily think I hold a

52:18

certain list or a box

52:22

of things that I generally go right , none of this stuff

52:24

can be spoken about in non Muslim spaces . I

52:27

don't think it's that . I think it's more about

52:29

being

52:31

aware . I think , yeah , I think it's more about

52:33

there's a process as a relational process going

52:35

on in which I feel like , how

52:37

am I being related to in this space

52:40

? And if I'm being

52:42

related to as if I'm Muslim

52:44

representative or the Muslim , then

52:47

I think I'm

52:49

much more mindful . I think of

52:51

perhaps what I do say

52:53

or share , versus

52:55

being related to Asmira , and

52:58

I think when I'm related to Asmira , I can bring more

53:00

of myself . So it's not necessarily that there

53:02

are certain things I don't speak about . It's just about what

53:04

is their capacity

53:06

in this relationship where

53:09

I can bring more of myself into it or not , whereas

53:11

if I feel like I'm being brought

53:14

into a space or related to as being a Muslim

53:16

representative or representing Muslims , I

53:18

feel like , oh , there are just barriers immediately

53:21

up or certain hurdles that I'm

53:23

like , ah , I've got to get this person

53:25

to kind of remove those or jump over those Before

53:27

they can actually see me , for the very

53:29

fact that they've not seen me means that I

53:31

can't bring all of me into it because there is . They

53:34

haven't created the capacity for all the space

53:36

for me in that relationship . I don't know

53:38

if that makes sense .

53:40

Oh yeah , no , totally , totally . But

53:43

how do you do ? Is

53:45

it something ? Is there something that gives

53:47

you a sense that somebody's not

53:49

seeing you , that they're seeing you as that representative

53:51

of them ? How do you , how do you sense that ?

53:54

I was thinking that I was just hanging out , it's a good question , so

53:56

I was thinking I don't actually show

53:58

. It's a feeling , it's a vibe , it's a

54:00

. I think it's about and I'm something

54:03

specifically about , specifically about professional

54:05

spaces . I think for me

54:07

it's about as a Muslim , as

54:10

a Muslim therapist just in that identity

54:12

alone it's about I'm always curious

54:14

about and I think I always I'm

54:16

curious . But I think I always question why

54:18

am I being invited into this space ? Because

54:22

Is it a quick

54:24

win that the people that

54:27

hold power in that space have got great tick

54:29

box ? We've got a Muslim being representing

54:32

and I think it's

54:36

hard to pinpoint and be specific . But I

54:38

think for me I pick up relationally

54:40

when I know that they've invited me

54:42

because they actually know about me and my individual

54:45

work , versus they

54:47

speak to me as if they know nothing

54:49

about me individually and

54:51

they're speaking to me . Yeah

54:54

, actually it's that it comes down to are they speaking

54:56

to me as if they know me or not ? I

54:58

know that sounds really vague , but I can just sense

55:01

it . I know what . I've been

55:03

invited into spaces feeling like , oh , I'm

55:05

the only Muslim in this space . I think I've been

55:07

invited because I represent a particular marginalized

55:09

community versus my

55:12

real want you to be in this space

55:14

.

55:17

I don't know if this is helpful , but I have been

55:19

learning about code switching

55:21

recently . Yeah , code switching

55:23

this idea I think it came in the

55:26

black community or personal color

55:28

community Initially . It's this idea that the

55:30

language that you use shifts

55:32

depending on the context that you're in , and I've seen a

55:34

lot of LGBTQ spaces talking about

55:37

it and neurodivergent spaces . I

55:39

can identify with code switching a

55:42

way of being myself more authentically in

55:44

spaces where I know that those

55:46

codes are going to be shared and

55:50

your whole kind of presentation

55:52

and way of being . It's very , it's

55:54

very unconscious recognizing

55:57

when you're in a space where you can be your natural

55:59

codes or speak to your natural codes , and where you can't .

56:02

I don't know if that's helpful . Yeah

56:05

, I definitely think it is . I think there is definitely an

56:07

element of and

56:09

I think I was , I think I

56:11

was doing it more unconsciously like going back to like 14

56:13

years ago when I did my training . I look

56:15

back and go , oh , I think I did . I did a lot of code

56:17

switching to feel like I had to fit in and

56:20

to feel like I did belong . Now

56:23

I think I'm much more conscious of

56:25

when I do that and I do it less

56:27

, if that makes sense , yeah , but

56:30

yeah , in exactly that , nick , you know somebody

56:32

also who is neurodivergent as well . So

56:34

for me there's something about . I

56:37

think that's the other thing . I'm also really mindful

56:39

of being invited into spaces because

56:42

they want a Muslim

56:44

perspective or they want a ethnic minority

56:46

perspective . But it's really interesting

56:48

because I kind of show up in these spaces and go . But

56:51

I also represent other identities as well

56:53

and I'm going to be explicit and name

56:55

those as well and I'm

56:58

going to be speaking on

57:01

neurodivergence , neurodiversity , working

57:03

within neurodiversity , at an upcoming conference . And

57:06

it's the same thing where I'm

57:08

going to introduce by actually naming those parts

57:10

of my identity Because , again

57:12

, it's so easy to feel like I

57:15

wear hijab , therefore I'm representative

57:17

of Muslims , but somehow that excludes

57:20

me from representing any other community

57:23

that I'm actually a member of , and

57:26

I think I'm doing a lot more work for me

57:28

and for the profession

57:30

by actually being much more open

57:32

, authentic and explicit about that . I

57:34

think that's so important in our

57:36

profession that we hold space

57:39

for each of our identities

57:41

and not just for the ones that we

57:43

have come to represent

57:45

or become

57:48

known for , if that makes sense

57:50

.

57:52

There's something very powerful

57:54

for me that are about also kind of like what's

57:56

visible and what's not visible . Like

57:59

your hijab is visible

58:01

, your neurodiversity isn't . I

58:04

guess I was talking about my Jewishness is less

58:07

visible , and there's something

58:09

about having space for both

58:11

the visible and

58:13

, really importantly , the non-visible . I guess , as therapists

58:16

, we should know that , shouldn't we ? There's something

58:18

about non-visible identities

58:21

, but there is something very powerful about visible

58:23

identities and

58:25

I guess it's a kind of cognitive

58:27

bias for one of that word that we can be

58:29

overly influenced by them and

58:32

read a lot based on

58:34

. I did my thesis , actually , when my

58:36

PhD was on masks , and

58:38

I was really interested in masks and the way that I

58:41

did a study as part of my PhD where we put

58:43

on , asked people

58:45

to hold the same body pose , but in

58:48

one case we're a happy mask and in one case

58:50

we're a sad mask , and then other

58:52

people had to write what they were , what imagine

58:54

what that person was feeling , even

58:56

though they knew absolutely that it was a mask

58:58

, and we said this is a mask . We told them it was a mask

59:01

. When they looked at the person wearing a happy mask , they thought

59:03

they were happier than the person wearing

59:05

a sad mask . I mean it's a clear kind of cognitive

59:07

bias and

59:10

a mistake . But yeah

59:12

, I did want

59:14

to . I mean for you , it was so good to us , and

59:16

don't answer this if you don't want to . But I did want to understand

59:18

a bit more about the hijab and what it means

59:21

for you and what's that

59:23

experience .

59:25

Yeah , interestingly I

59:27

. So I I chose

59:29

and I started wearing the hijab what might

59:32

be deemed kind of quite late , if that makes sense , because

59:34

I know that for

59:36

culturally , I think , for

59:38

girls to wear hijab it's , you know , from that puberty

59:41

age , you know so kind of the equivalent then

59:43

of kind of in secondary school you'll see girls wear and

59:46

you see a lot more now as well . Culturally

59:48

for me , because of my , my childhood

59:50

, because of my cultural background

59:52

that I've grown up in , nobody

59:56

in my no women in my family wore

59:59

hijab in the way

1:00:01

that I do . I mean culturally

1:00:03

, coming from a of a South Asian heritage

1:00:06

, like they'll wear the scarves loosely over

1:00:08

their head , but that's cultural

1:00:10

, rather than wearing

1:00:12

hijab in the way that I wear it . And

1:00:14

so for me , coming to it was absolutely

1:00:17

kind of this individual journey and , interestingly

1:00:19

, I started wearing the hijab at the point

1:00:21

where I just so

1:00:24

we're going back again 15 years ago , interestingly , so

1:00:26

the timelines correspond I started

1:00:28

wearing the hijab like full

1:00:30

time , like that very properly , because I tend to

1:00:32

wear it during Ramadan , during the month of fasting

1:00:34

, for the few years prior . But I decided

1:00:36

to start wearing it kind of properly and all the

1:00:38

time when I started my training

1:00:40

interestingly . So I've done my two year

1:00:43

certificate in , so I've done a counselling and

1:00:45

then , just as I was due to start then

1:00:47

my two year diploma , it was in that summer

1:00:49

. So I did the certificate straight . You know , I did the

1:00:51

diploma straight off the back of the certificate and I had like a summer

1:00:53

break and it was during that summer . So

1:00:56

I started my training

1:00:58

at the point where I started wearing a hijab

1:01:00

. So my journey of

1:01:02

being a counsellor is so kind

1:01:05

of parallel to my experience

1:01:08

of being visibly Muslim and I think a lot

1:01:10

of that has to then do with to do then

1:01:12

with the counsellor I've become

1:01:14

, because that journey

1:01:16

to choose to wear it and to be visibly Muslim

1:01:19

I think has really played

1:01:21

a part . Then in , like you were just

1:01:23

saying , mick , about how we , how we present

1:01:25

visibly , holds such great

1:01:27

weight to how we perceive people

1:01:29

that I was learning

1:01:32

that at the time I was

1:01:34

training to be a counsellor and to

1:01:36

sit with my clients and go , okay , visibly , look

1:01:38

like this , but what's , what's the hidden parts , what's

1:01:41

beneath or behind your visible identity

1:01:43

? And I think I was much a I

1:01:45

felt and I feel like that helped

1:01:47

me to be more tuned to my clients , because

1:01:50

I found that that was happening to me as well , that

1:01:53

people were

1:01:56

seeing the scarf

1:01:58

first it was my , my first experience

1:02:00

of that and then going

1:02:02

over it , but there's myra behind it , like I'm not just

1:02:04

the scarf . So , yeah

1:02:07

, so for me , like I said , it's like 15

1:02:09

odd years ago that I

1:02:11

started wearing it , and very much an individual

1:02:13

journey . And

1:02:17

that's another thing again , I think the projections

1:02:19

, the stereotypes that come with wearing the hijab , it's like

1:02:21

again , it's all those

1:02:23

connotations of where you're oppressed , you're

1:02:25

told you have to wear it . It's like

1:02:27

your dad's told you you must and I'm like mine

1:02:30

was the complete opposite experience

1:02:32

. So for me it's a very individual

1:02:34

relationship with it . I

1:02:36

think for me it is a way of

1:02:39

. For me it

1:02:41

is a symbol , a

1:02:43

signifier of grounding me

1:02:45

in my faith . I

1:02:49

think it's something yes , it's something kind of very it's

1:02:51

both physical as various

1:02:53

as well as very metaphorical of

1:02:56

, yeah , grounding me in my faith

1:02:58

. And it's interesting that I chose

1:03:00

to do that then , just as I started to train as

1:03:02

a counselor , because I do absolutely think

1:03:04

that the two are connected .

1:03:08

It sounds like it was an expression

1:03:10

of an internal process

1:03:12

and very much aligned with recognizing

1:03:15

that faith and wanting to be

1:03:18

outside physically

1:03:20

in alignment with what you

1:03:22

felt very powerfully deep inside . It was part

1:03:24

of your growth and very much

1:03:26

part of that journey to , to , to wear the

1:03:28

hijab .

1:03:29

And it was something that I felt I

1:03:31

wanted to have . I

1:03:38

wanted to have a real sense of holding it

1:03:40

entirely , but to then wear a text , to wear a job and

1:03:42

to have it externally Also

1:03:45

, I think you go through a

1:03:47

real process of how

1:03:50

can I put it ? It really challenges your ego

1:03:53

, incredibly challenges your

1:03:55

ego , and

1:04:00

, I think it's interesting was all about identity and , hidden and

1:04:02

hidden , invisible , there's

1:04:05

a real irony . I think that in wearing hijab

1:04:07

, you actually

1:04:10

, for me , it was about not tying up

1:04:12

my ego or my sense of

1:04:14

value in what I looked like

1:04:16

externally and actually

1:04:18

helped me to find value internally

1:04:20

. So , rather

1:04:23

than a value because I

1:04:26

should really put that in context because for me previously

1:04:28

, before I would get a job , it's like I had

1:04:30

at the time , really long hair and

1:04:33

it would be commented on all the time

1:04:35

, and so for me , there

1:04:37

was something about a real value

1:04:40

in my hair

1:04:42

, and you know that . The anxieties

1:04:45

and the attachment

1:04:47

I had to having good hair days Do you

1:04:49

know what I mean ? Like the anxiety of going , what

1:04:51

makes me feel good about myself and what makes

1:04:53

me feel worthwhile or valuable

1:04:56

or attractive as a person . It

1:04:58

was all tied up in my hair , and

1:05:01

so to wear the hijab for me was

1:05:03

a moment of going . Why

1:05:05

are you on ? Hey , you're not your hair , but also your value

1:05:08

is about what's in your heart and in your soul , and not

1:05:10

tied up in what's something external .

1:05:14

Can I ask something then , myra , because I think this is

1:05:16

surfacing something for me that

1:05:18

is around faith and

1:05:20

around experiencing my differences

1:05:22

as a woman here , somebody whose

1:05:25

hair is kind of visible . Perhaps

1:05:27

one of my fears as a woman is that

1:05:29

I might be breaking one of

1:05:31

your rules or that I might be doing something that

1:05:33

you would judge , as you

1:05:36

know . I mean , I'm not I'm not feeling that about you

1:05:38

because I know you , myra but thinking about

1:05:40

how a

1:05:42

woman who doesn't wear a hijab might be afraid

1:05:45

of what is the judgment coming

1:05:47

out ? I think this speaks to kind of faith difference

1:05:49

and not necessarily knowing

1:05:51

what in Islam you might you might feel

1:05:54

about women who don't wear hijabs and things . I just think

1:05:56

it's helpful to explore that .

1:05:58

Yeah , I think

1:06:00

for me , and

1:06:04

maybe because I've had a adult

1:06:06

experience of not wearing a hijab , so maybe I

1:06:09

came to it as a level of maturity

1:06:11

and understanding at the time , 15 years ago . But

1:06:14

also with that , I think , in offering myself

1:06:16

compassion for then

1:06:18

, for that , how can I say that

1:06:20

in choosing to wear it , I was then able

1:06:23

to offer compassion to the Myra that didn't wear it before

1:06:25

. But for you know , however

1:06:27

, many years before I didn't wear it , and

1:06:29

so because of that , then I sit with

1:06:31

that respect and value for any

1:06:34

woman , muslim , non Muslim who wears

1:06:36

hijab or who doesn't wear hijab , because for

1:06:38

me it's such an individual journey and

1:06:41

I think I do that thing

1:06:43

that I wouldn't want . I

1:06:45

probably was . I don't know whether I was

1:06:47

consciously explicitly judged for not wearing

1:06:49

it at the time , and I don't . I don't ever remember

1:06:51

being just . As I said earlier , I grew up

1:06:53

in a family that women didn't wear

1:06:55

wear proper I say proper

1:06:57

traditional hijab . So I

1:06:59

grew up in a family that we weren't judged or shamed

1:07:02

for not wearing hijab , and so

1:07:04

for me , part of my faith

1:07:06

is to actually offer that compassion to every other woman

1:07:08

and to go from

1:07:10

this book , and particularly for Muslim women . If you wear

1:07:13

hijab , if you don't wear hijab , that's your

1:07:15

individual journey and that's your business . I'm

1:07:17

not here to sit and judge that , so

1:07:19

I think that's something on both sides .

1:07:21

I think what kind of what is this is this

1:07:24

discussion is touching off on me . Is this the

1:07:26

kind of the way that faiths , religious faiths

1:07:28

, have been pitted against each other culturally

1:07:31

and kind of globally ? And I'm

1:07:33

also still holding what you said earlier

1:07:35

in the video , mick , about the , the shame

1:07:37

that's projected onto Jewish people

1:07:40

. That is part of the identity

1:07:42

of being Jewish , that is , that's a faith

1:07:44

narrative , right , that's . That's very

1:07:46

much about Christian interpretations of Jewish

1:07:48

, jewish practices

1:07:51

, jewish belief , and

1:07:53

I'm .

1:07:54

I'm doing that kind of under .

1:07:56

perhaps perhaps you too , as individuals , what

1:07:58

? What is meaningful to you

1:08:00

about human relationship ? Maybe I don't

1:08:02

know if there's something about . I'm

1:08:05

thinking from perspective somebody who's race as a Christian

1:08:08

who sees the world ? Christian

1:08:10

see the world as those who are in the right faith

1:08:13

, those who are in the wrong faith , those who are true believers

1:08:15

, those who aren't true believers . There's

1:08:17

this separatism that's projected out , but

1:08:19

actually the three of us as individuals will have probably

1:08:21

different metaphysical beliefs about what we're

1:08:23

doing on the planet and what a relationship is

1:08:25

that fundamental level ? Just

1:08:27

wondering if you could both speak to .

1:08:31

I'm not sure this relates exactly to what you

1:08:33

say , nicola , but what came up for me when

1:08:36

you asked him more of that question and

1:08:38

about feeling judge , was just

1:08:41

about , you know , we talked about the kind of

1:08:43

experience and marginalization and

1:08:45

minoritization , and I

1:08:47

think what we haven't talked about so much is what

1:08:49

gets projected onto people of different faith

1:08:51

that is threatening or judgmental

1:08:54

or critical , and I think is

1:08:56

, you know , if I think

1:08:58

about , as a Jew , my relationship to Christianity

1:09:01

that Jews

1:09:03

are seen as harmful , as dangerous , you

1:09:05

as destroying is , you

1:09:07

know , eating Christian children

1:09:09

and kind of circumcising them and things

1:09:12

like that . And I think that there

1:09:14

is those projections . It's

1:09:16

really interesting that in your hijab , you know

1:09:18

, you're talking about it as a kind of symbol of personal

1:09:20

growth and as an expression of

1:09:22

something deeply spiritual within you , and yet

1:09:24

people can read that as something aggressive

1:09:27

or critical and I

1:09:29

think , as being Jewish people

1:09:31

can see that Judaism as being something

1:09:34

that they have to defend against or

1:09:36

something threatening . And it's just , it's so

1:09:38

alien to my experience , you know , sometimes

1:09:40

when I hear these conspiracy theories about Jews , I

1:09:42

think like just what you know , like

1:09:44

I just kind of made this light , is not the Jews

1:09:46

that I know , like controlling the

1:09:48

world and the banks and doing everything , and

1:09:50

yet there is this projection of enormous

1:09:53

threat onto others . And I guess

1:09:55

that's something about put talking about our personal

1:09:57

experiences and

1:09:59

relating in that way is important because I think when

1:10:01

people listen more when I listen to you , he

1:10:03

job and what it means for you it's

1:10:06

so different from the stereotypes

1:10:08

I hold , it's so different

1:10:10

from a kind of fear that it's threatening

1:10:13

that you know what I understand . I read

1:10:15

a book about around the

1:10:17

Prophet Muhammad and I just found that , you

1:10:19

know , really moving to actually understand

1:10:22

it and to have some sense

1:10:24

of it , not understand it , have some sense of it . The

1:10:26

projections onto Islam , I mean , are

1:10:28

just horrendous . Just

1:10:31

horrendous in terms of how it's seen

1:10:33

as , and I think for a lot of people that's the

1:10:35

immediate association is Islam threat

1:10:37

, terrorists . You know something

1:10:39

destructive Jews may be powerful

1:10:41

and and and , and I think

1:10:43

it's partly because we don't share , we

1:10:46

don't talk about the experiences or what we . What

1:10:48

we do is we go from our own

1:10:51

experience of insecurity . So it's something

1:10:53

I've learned being in the therapy world for all these

1:10:55

years and you're just

1:10:57

a youngster , myra , compared to me . You know 15

1:10:59

years , I think God knows how

1:11:01

many decades have been here it's just how vulnerable

1:11:04

everybody is , just how

1:11:06

vulnerable and scared

1:11:08

most of us are . And

1:11:11

right , you know most . You know so

1:11:14

few of us are thinking about you know I want to do this

1:11:16

to hurt so and so I just you know , I'm

1:11:18

sure you know we're your clients , but that's not where clients

1:11:20

are at . They're not thinking , oh , how can I destroy people

1:11:22

, how can I hurt people ? So much of the dialogue

1:11:25

is feeling threatened , feeling scared , and , as

1:11:27

a Jew , feel scared . I think , as a Muslim

1:11:29

, you know you feel scared . I'm

1:11:31

sure Christians feel scared as well and and that

1:11:34

is the talking and sharing I think , seeing those

1:11:36

inner worlds , that maybe you can diffuse some of that

1:11:39

fear and help us realize

1:11:41

that the other isn't out to

1:11:43

get us . Sometimes they can

1:11:45

be scary , but often it's because of something

1:11:47

that is unknown . That's not a threat

1:11:49

. That's not a threat just because

1:11:51

it's different . Sorry

1:11:53

, nicola , I didn't answer your question at all .

1:11:56

I feel like I want to say that I don't identify as Christian

1:11:58

, but partly because of that , partly because

1:12:00

of that I mean I don't have , I don't

1:12:02

share that faith , but that the

1:12:05

projection , fearful

1:12:07

projection on the groups

1:12:09

is part of part of religious dogmatism

1:12:12

that I can't kind of sit with and

1:12:14

I think that is partly I might

1:12:16

project on to somebody in inner faith

1:12:18

. I might assume that there that dogmatism

1:12:20

comes with that , when , when it

1:12:23

doesn't , but it's part of being raised

1:12:25

in this society .

1:12:26

Yeah , and I'm

1:12:28

wondering then , if that I'm immediately

1:12:30

like I'm linking it back then to , as

1:12:32

me and Mick have spoken about , kind of our experiences then

1:12:34

being in the mic

1:12:37

, being in kind of non Jewish basis

1:12:39

for me , being a non Muslim space , is that

1:12:41

I think that's the anxiety we're speaking about Feeling

1:12:44

of unknown , unfamiliar , unsafe

1:12:46

, of what is going to come at us because

1:12:48

of the stereotypes that people will hold about

1:12:51

our faith . And

1:12:53

I think that then immediately relates

1:12:56

then to why I'm so

1:12:58

mindful of how I then show up in spaces , because

1:13:00

maybe I'm then consciously

1:13:03

and unconsciously then doing

1:13:05

my heart is doing all the kind of emotional and mental

1:13:07

gymnastics then not to be the

1:13:10

threat , not to be the terrorist , not

1:13:13

to be the person that's going to be angry and

1:13:15

destructive and somebody that's going

1:13:17

to be oppositional . And

1:13:20

I think I'm just so mindful that

1:13:23

there's

1:13:26

something about needing to show

1:13:28

up in a way that feels open

1:13:30

and welcoming and friendly

1:13:32

and I'm like your friendly

1:13:34

neighborhood Muslim therapist kind of thing

1:13:36

, and it does . I

1:13:38

think at times it does feel like

1:13:41

that , but me as a Muslim woman

1:13:43

in a hijab coming into a space

1:13:45

, yes , might

1:13:47

or will feel threatening to some people

1:13:49

, and so I then have to

1:13:51

be non threatening

1:13:54

. I

1:13:56

think it's reflected in

1:13:59

and I think that I hold

1:14:01

because again we don't just hold marginalized identities

1:14:03

I absolutely then equally hold alongside

1:14:06

it some privileged identities

1:14:08

, and I think my education , my

1:14:11

professional status , my accent

1:14:13

then go a long way in

1:14:16

reducing the threat . So

1:14:19

I recognize that I have also

1:14:21

resources and tools

1:14:24

to hand but

1:14:26

also enable me to

1:14:28

kind of dispel some

1:14:30

of those threats or projections that somebody

1:14:33

might have on their immediate perception of

1:14:35

me . But I do know that that immediate

1:14:37

perception of me is there whenever I walk into a room

1:14:39

.

1:14:42

So interesting , myron , I really

1:14:44

share that sense of having kind of

1:14:46

going into space in a way , diffusing

1:14:48

not being the greedy Jew , not

1:14:50

being the selfish one , not being this kind

1:14:52

of powerful Jewish

1:14:55

caricature , but diffusing

1:14:57

that and kind of being your

1:15:00

nice friendly Muslim , your nice friendly Jew . He won't

1:15:02

, he won't going to do any harm , and

1:15:05

it is kind of it is extra work , isn't

1:15:07

it ? As you say , it kind of takes extra

1:15:09

work that you have to do that

1:15:11

and probably , probably

1:15:13

, I imagine you

1:15:16

have to do it in more than me in

1:15:18

a sense that

1:15:20

because of the visibility that is going to come

1:15:22

at you , I've kind of got a choice about whether

1:15:24

I disclose , whether I talk about being Jewish , and

1:15:27

so there's a different process and there's

1:15:29

both processes Do I introduce it and then do

1:15:31

I diffuse it or do I

1:15:33

just leave it and kind of pass as

1:15:35

a Christian ? But in that lose

1:15:37

something of myself in that

1:15:40

process . And

1:15:43

I think part of me you know part of me when

1:15:45

you're talking about , when the child part of me is really

1:15:47

impressed and proud

1:15:49

, if that's the right word , and thinking , wow , that's because

1:15:52

there's something about you putting yourself out there

1:15:54

and saying , right , I know , people are going to make

1:15:56

stereotypes and have assumptions about what is really important

1:15:58

to me and I'm going to put myself

1:16:00

out there and it does make me think , you know , I could wear a stave

1:16:02

, david . I could have changed my name to

1:16:05

more , you know , back to my family name , to

1:16:07

make it much more evident that I was Jewish

1:16:10

, and I kind of chose , I guess in

1:16:12

a way , not to do that and see , kind

1:16:14

of have those options which kind

1:16:17

of feel bad . I mean , it's almost part of that

1:16:19

. Yeah , just maybe it would have

1:16:21

been braver to just really say

1:16:23

, or maybe I shouldn't have to feel that I have to face

1:16:26

that in the first place .

1:16:29

I think what I'm really left with , kind of

1:16:31

coming to the end of this conversation is one of the things you talk

1:16:33

about , myra , is kind of being a safer person

1:16:35

, that there's no safe space , but be a safer person in

1:16:37

the space . It's something I talk about a lot with students

1:16:40

and how we can be safer people . It's

1:16:43

just about , isn't it for me , as somebody

1:16:45

with that white privilege of

1:16:47

being just being able

1:16:50

to sense , when I'm relating to somebody

1:16:52

with those projections , you

1:16:54

know , in a way , that creates that anxiety

1:16:57

for me . I'm doing some of the work , so

1:16:59

you're not having to do the work , so that I'm doing

1:17:01

the work , so that in the space you

1:17:04

don't need to be sensitive to my anxiety

1:17:06

, that I can actually sit with my anxiety

1:17:08

and realise that there's no threat here .

1:17:11

I think that's so well put , nicola . I think that's so

1:17:14

well put and I think in that it is

1:17:16

something about people from

1:17:18

privileged groups doing that work

1:17:20

of thinking about the stereotypes , thinking about

1:17:22

the assumptions , kind of diffusing it in

1:17:24

a way that then allows people from

1:17:26

marginalised groups not to have to do all that work

1:17:28

all the time because they can go into

1:17:30

that space . I think there's something proactive about that

1:17:33

. It's like it can't . I

1:17:37

mean , it is a psychological , internal process

1:17:39

for people in those privileged groups , but also I think

1:17:41

something needs to be communicated . I think that's

1:17:43

what we're also talking about is like

1:17:45

and again it comes about this thing about visibility

1:17:47

and invisibility , but kind of as

1:17:50

a Jewish person , I kind of assume antisemitism

1:17:53

unless that's diffused . You know Maura

1:17:55

has been talking about kind of assuming people who make assumptions

1:17:57

. There's something about and we're talking about trainers

1:18:00

. You know that's where he talks about trainers and I think that's such a

1:18:02

key thing that you're emphasising

1:18:04

there Like trainers need to hold this , they need

1:18:06

to address this . The idea that kind

1:18:08

of being neutral is going to somehow resolve

1:18:10

it just by being non-directive and not going

1:18:13

anywhere . It needs

1:18:15

guiding and it needs explicitness

1:18:19

in bringing up these issues and addressing

1:18:21

these issues and holding these issues and supporting

1:18:24

people to feel that they can really bring themselves

1:18:26

forwards in the way that we've been talking

1:18:28

about .

1:18:31

Maura , perhaps if I give the

1:18:33

last word to you about that as well , about what that would

1:18:35

look like for you , I just

1:18:37

I think what I'm left with

1:18:39

is just a real sense that this is really nuanced

1:18:42

and actually , for me it just emphasises

1:18:44

why we need to have the spaces

1:18:46

in our trainings and in our counselling

1:18:48

services to have these dialogues and discussions

1:18:50

about who we are . Because I'm

1:18:53

just thinking about between me and Nick

1:18:55

, between me and Nick today I think I've just got a sense of

1:18:57

gosh , how much have we been individually

1:18:59

carrying ? And actually there

1:19:01

are like-minded or similar

1:19:03

people who are carrying those similar burdens

1:19:06

and responsibilities and doing those

1:19:08

same kind of emotional and mental gymnastics , and

1:19:10

yet we're actually in

1:19:12

the same kind of group trying

1:19:14

to do that . You know we're in the same position . So

1:19:17

I think the more we're able to have open dialogues

1:19:19

about it , and especially on trainings , I

1:19:21

think that allows us to understand that how much we

1:19:23

are each individually carrying in

1:19:25

order just to navigate the world

1:19:27

. Like there's so much going on internally

1:19:29

and I think we need to allow space

1:19:32

and capacity for us to explore that further

1:19:34

.

1:19:36

Thank you very much both of you . That was really wonderful

1:19:39

. I loved kind of sitting here

1:19:41

with you and I hope the listeners enjoyed that

1:19:43

too and have their own kind of response that they're

1:19:45

co-creating some meaning from that . That's important

1:19:48

meaning for them . Thank you for your time

1:19:50

and for doing it .

1:19:50

Thank you so much , Nicola , for holding the

1:19:52

space and for Myra for being so

1:19:54

open and talking about things .

1:19:56

Yeah , thank you as well , Meg . I feel

1:19:58

like I've just there's something

1:20:00

about having discovered such commonalities

1:20:02

between our experiences , and I just think that's a beautiful

1:20:05

thing . So thank you , meg , and thank you , nicola , for

1:20:07

facilitating and holding such a safe space

1:20:09

. Thanks , myra , thank you .