0:07

My

0:07

Jewish story is one of refugees.

0:10

Family on my dad's side escaped

0:10

the antisemitism in what was

0:12

once Galicia and is now part of

0:12

Ukraine during the pogroms of

0:15

the early 20th century and came

0:15

to the United States. Family on

0:19

my mother's side escaped Poland

0:19

in the 1930s, before World War

0:22

II, to allude the genocidal

0:22

violence of the Nazis and found

0:25

themselves in France, Brazil,

0:25

Israel, and the U.S. Many, of

0:30

course could not escape. As with

0:30

other groups of refugees and

0:33

migrants, many Jewish

0:33

communities, including my own

0:36

faced or complied with the

0:36

pressures to assimilate to their

0:38

new spaces, to forget or even

0:38

abandoned certain religious,

0:42

linguistic and cultural

0:42

practices. One of the problems

0:45

of assimilation is that it

0:45

requires an intentional

0:47

forgetting, a deliberate

0:47

exclusion and erasure of the

0:50

stories that explain how we got

0:50

here and why we're here. In my

0:54

case, this meant that there was

0:54

much I did not know about my

0:56

past until I started to ask

0:56

questions. Even the brief story

0:59

of my family I just shared is a

0:59

product of many years of

1:02

ambivalence, and recently those

1:02

of renewed energy, interest, and

1:05

a need to know who I am with

1:05

this has led to is not just

1:08

learning more about me, but of

1:08

the millions of Jewish stories

1:11

out there, those that reflect my

1:11

own as part of the Ashkenazi

1:14

diaspora in the late 19th and

1:14

20th century, and those from

1:17

Sephardic, Mizrahim and other

1:17

Jewish communities that in many

1:20

cases, dates centuries before.

1:20

So what happens when we begin to

1:25

recover our stories to gather

1:25

them, document them and revive

1:28

them? How does the reclaiming of

1:28

stories we are told to forget

1:31

shift the narrative of not just

1:31

understanding the community such

1:34

stories represent, but also our

1:34

understandings of the places we

1:37

are in our history and therefore

1:37

our collective future? Welcome

1:42

to Fulbright Forward, a podcast

1:42

that explores the concepts of

1:44

diversity access, equity,

1:44

inclusion and justice in the

1:48

Fulbright Program and the work

1:48

of Fulbright participants around

1:51

the world. I am Jeremy

1:51

Gombin-Sperling the Fulbright

1:54

Diversity and Inclusion Liaison

1:54

for programs in the Western

1:56

Hemisphere. On today's podcast,

1:56

we feature esteemed Jewish

2:00

Uruguayan anthropologist,

2:00

teacher, fiction author, and

2:04

Fulbright alumna, Dr. Teresa

2:04

Porzecanski. During today's

2:08

episode, Dr. Porzecanski and I

2:08

talk about her history of

2:11

anthropological work and it

2:11

would require on the Uruguayan

2:13

Jewish population. In tracing

2:13

this genealogy, we learn about

2:17

Dr. Porzecanski's efforts to

2:17

preserve the stories of many

2:21

Uruguayan Jews through her

2:21

qualitative research and the

2:23

impact that it had. This

2:23

discussion also led us into

2:27

reflecting on the nation state

2:27

as a concept, how nations build

2:30

narratives to advance certain

2:30

goals often at the cost of those

2:33

most marginalized by it often

2:33

intending to erase their

2:36

stories. Finally, we talk about

2:36

Dr. Porzecanski his career as a

2:40

writer of novels, and how her

2:40

work as a Jewish academic and

2:43

author have informed each other.

2:43

What becomes clear in this

2:47

conversation is that academic

2:47

research, fiction writing can

2:51

all have a social consciousness.

2:51

The stories we gather can do

2:54

more than just preserve the

2:54

diverse histories of communities

2:57

and people. The sharing of

2:57

stories are a mode to shift

3:00

consciousness, to reevaluate

3:00

much of what many of us thought

3:03

to be true, to better realize

3:03

the complexity of those around

3:06

us, and those who lived before

3:06

us. I hope you enjoy this

3:10

wonderful episode with Dr.

3:10

Porzecanski.

3:15

Teresa, thank you so much for

3:15

being part of this episode of

3:17

Fulbright forward.

3:19

Thanks to

3:19

you for inviting me.

3:22

I'm just curious if you could talk a little bit about just like, what

3:24

experiences led you to your

3:28

research and work in

3:28

anthropology, and you know, to

3:32

your Fulbright grant and just

3:32

kind of what led you to begin to

3:35

study the Jewish community?

3:38

Yeah, of

3:38

course, well, I had experiences

3:41

of several anti, antisemitism,

3:41

when I was a young girl in

3:47

public school, two or three

3:47

experiences. Then when I grew

3:51

up, I realized that the Jewish

3:51

community, in Uruguay and being

3:55

a minority, you know, was

3:55

receiving in subtle ways. I

4:01

wouldn't say that it was

4:01

apparent or really a

4:07

manifestation, but in several

4:07

ways, all these accumulated

4:14

social prejudices that had been

4:14

during the Second World War and

4:19

before much before that, I first

4:19

became a social worker. Because

4:27

I thought, things I could change

4:27

some things and help people to,

4:33

you know, to read reality in a

4:33

different way. But soon I

4:37

realized that that the deep

4:37

causes for for social prejudice

4:43

had to be identified and

4:43

researched in each society in

4:49

each social group, very

4:49

specifically. So I became an

4:53

anthropologist and then also, I

4:53

studied hermeneutics and also

5:00

The communication tools and

5:00

philosophy are also because I

5:06

wanted to really discover why

5:06

why societies create social

5:13

prejudice, I guess ethnicities,

5:13

minorities, small social groups

5:21

that are seen as different,

5:21

including the afrodescendant

5:26

groups, or including religions,

5:26

religious groups that are not

5:32

traditional, or were not

5:32

traditional in the history of

5:36

Uruguay, and Latin America,

5:36

like, for example, the beliefs

5:41

that the slaves brought and

5:41

recreated in Latin America. So

5:47

all these questions led me to

5:47

Anthropology and then then I

5:52

realized that Anthropologycan

5:52

give some hypotheses. But

5:57

anthropology doesn't have the

5:57

ultimate, the ultimate reason or

6:04

explanation for these.

6:07

Thank you so much. Yeah, no, I think that's a really helpful answer

6:08

this kind of understanding what

6:11

led you to anthropology as a way

6:11

of doing this sort of analysis

6:15

that came in-- sounds like from

6:15

experiences you had, but also

6:18

began to look at some of the

6:18

different communities you wanted

6:20

to help or support. I had a

6:20

personal interest, of course, in

6:24

doing an episode on this theme

6:24

around, um, specifically

6:27

understanding the history of

6:27

Jewish communities in Latin

6:30

America. And you know, one thing

6:30

I know that a lot of your work,

6:34

as you named earlier has

6:34

revolved around doing that work

6:37

and doing that study through an

6:37

anthropological lens in Uruguay,

6:40

particularly, you know, as me as

6:40

a US as a US person who's

6:46

Jewish, whose family, you know,

6:46

has the diaspora story of

6:49

escaping the Holocaust and

6:49

terror in Poland. You know,

6:53

many, most of my family ended up

6:53

in the united states, but some

6:57

also ended up in Brazil. And

6:57

some of that was because the US

7:00

was not letting in Jewish folks

7:00

who are trying to escape at the

7:03

time. And what I've learned is

7:03

that I think many folks in the

7:07

diaspora, especially those in

7:07

the US don't always know about

7:10

the history of the Jewish

7:10

communities in Latin America,

7:13

which is just not Ashkenazi

7:13

communities, it's also Sephardic

7:16

communities and other groups

7:16

within the Jewish Diaspora that

7:19

also came in waves prior to, you

7:19

know, the 30s into the 40s. So

7:24

I'm just curious, as you know,

7:24

as a scholar, like, what do you

7:27

believe are just important

7:27

aspects or historical moments

7:31

that people should know more

7:31

about in order to understand the

7:35

Latin American Jewish

7:35

experience? And again, knowing

7:37

it's a large question if you'd

7:37

rather use or just speak to

7:40

Uruguay, as the example and what

7:40

you know, from your work

7:43

absolutely fine, but really just

7:43

want to explore that, that

7:46

question of the important

7:46

historical moments in sort of

7:49

the development of Jewish

7:49

communities throughout Latin

7:51

America, or specifically

7:51

Uruguay.

7:54

Well, I was

7:54

led to, to research and to make

7:59

visible this situation minority.

7:59

You know, like, I understood

8:04

that prej- social prejudice has

8:04

many reasons in order to

8:10

recreate it. But one of the

8:10

reasons is, one of the reasons

8:14

is that people knows little or

8:14

nothing about this minorities.

8:20

So it is seen as something that

8:20

they cannot understand, no, it's

8:27

going to be created as a virtual

8:27

enemy, or it's going to be

8:32

created. I am a constructionist,

8:32

that's why I'm speaking in this

8:37

way, like, of all the hypotheses

8:37

that are on this problem of

8:41

social prejudice. The main thing

8:41

is that you create this enemy,

8:47

whatever it is, the enemy you

8:47

create the people creates this

8:51

enemy, in order to find their

8:51

own identity as we, as we have

8:58

sent us. And so So I started to

8:58

make this of all the reasons to

9:04

research on the Jewish community

9:04

through qualitative research,

9:09

that is oral history and

9:09

autobiographies of people that I

9:15

well, I have. Now this is the

9:15

third edition of this book. Life

9:20

started here, tuition me grant

9:20

in your way. When they tell

9:25

their own stories, it's visible

9:25

that they weren't the voluntary

9:30

migrants. They didn't come from

9:30

Europe and because they wanted

9:34

to make a better life as was, as

9:34

you could say about the

9:40

migrations before the First

9:40

World War. No, these people came

9:44

because they were pursued,

9:44

because they couldn't stay,

9:47

because they were expelled. And

9:47

then the this concept of

9:52

migrants in the case of the

9:52

Jewish minority is more near to

9:58

the concept of refugees. So not

9:58

voluntary migrants, you could

10:02

think of voluntary migrants when

10:02

the Spaniards and the Italians

10:07

came during the 19th century. So

10:07

there's a saying in Uruguay, you

10:12

know, where did the Uruguayans

10:12

come from. And there's a famous

10:17

author who said, they come from

10:17

the boats, because that, they

10:21

indigenous and native peoples

10:21

had been, they were

10:24

exterminated, their demography

10:24

was very low, so they weren't

10:29

many. And so this land was void

10:29

practically. And so the

10:35

Spaniards and the Italians, the

10:35

two big immigrations during the

10:40

19th century were founders of

10:40

the, of the country and creators

10:46

of the culture. Okay, so this

10:46

minority of Jewish immigrants

10:51

that comes after the First World

10:51

War, and during the 20s, and the

10:56

30s, were refugees that were

10:56

expelled from their countries.

11:03

And many times, they were at the

11:03

limits, at the limits of being

11:10

murdered or being exterminated

11:10

by other means. So that's why

11:16

what I showed through the,

11:16

through the autobiographies is

11:22

they really are telling how, how

11:22

did they immigrate and why, why.

11:28

In those times, of course, this

11:28

parting was saying forever, I

11:33

will not see you, like the old

11:33

people had to stay there, old

11:37

people, the elders have to stay.

11:37

And there was a real parting and

11:42

a real transculturation, I would

11:42

say in their own life. The first

11:48

edition was like, you know,

11:48

immediately everybody, the, the

11:52

Jewish community read about

11:52

themselves also, and the

11:56

non-Jewish people read about the

11:56

Jewish community, which is a way

12:01

of, you know, learning history,

12:01

is a way of bringing conscience

12:06

about who is who. Also, it had

12:06

great, great consequences for

12:14

the Jewish community, Ashkenazi,

12:14

Spehardic, Mizrahim in Uruguay,

12:21

because when the Jewish

12:21

community was able to see that

12:25

somebody wrote about them, and

12:25

that their their own lives were

12:29

important, as an experience,

12:29

that is not only individual, but

12:35

collective. This was a change

12:35

for them. They acquire more

12:39

strength to be eh in this new

12:39

country. And they're their

12:45

descendants also that are

12:45

Uruguayan, got the ability to

12:51

recognize that they have the

12:51

right they have the right to be

12:55

Jewish in a country that's free

12:55

of cults. I don't know that the

13:00

right translation is you can be

13:00

of any religion, according to

13:04

the Constitution in your work.

13:04

So you also can be Jewish.

13:09

Then when I realized that other

13:09

minorities came in, to knock to

13:14

my house and said, the

13:14

Armenians, we want to do a

13:19

bookexactly. Then

13:19

Afrodescendants, so we want to

13:22

do a book and you have to teach

13:22

us and they did. This was a real

13:27

experience, I was able to put on

13:27

the general agenda, the ex, the

13:33

existence, existence of

13:33

different histories of different

13:40

minorities, and they that change

13:40

the whole were way of looking at

13:48

the Uuguayan society instead of

13:48

being a homogenous sort of

13:54

collective, they could realize

13:54

there were differences and the

13:59

differences should be recognized

13:59

and respected. So I did a book

14:05

of history, of the exclusion of

14:05

Afrodescendants. Also, I did

14:10

this with the autobiographies

14:10

and with oral history together

14:16

with a colleague, Beatriz Santos

14:16

and the Armenians did their own

14:22

book. And then something

14:22

wonderful happened, like the

14:26

government decided to to honor

14:26

this differences of minorities

14:32

having Day of the Immigrant.

14:32

With that in this day of the

14:37

immigrant that was going to be

14:37

every years of celebration. So

14:43

so the thing that started as a

14:43

research on the small Jewish

14:49

community in your way that got

14:49

bigger and bigger and changed in

14:54

many ways, their way of

14:54

interpreting differences and in

14:59

my own way of seeing this, also

14:59

brought a less possibilities of

15:05

growing social prejudices. All

15:05

things are related, one to the

15:11

other. And when an intellectual

15:11

presents real research that is

15:18

academic, but it's also moving

15:18

the conscience, the social

15:23

conscience, I think that's why

15:23

social sciences are for. Now

15:28

they are not for writing papers

15:28

that no one reads; is for

15:33

changing the social reality is

15:33

her letting prejudice not to

15:38

exist? Isn't understanding isn't

15:38

understanding who I am? Who are

15:44

we? That that's it?

15:46

I guess what I'd like to ask this back to the Jewish communityin

15:48

Uruguay and your research is, it

15:52

makes sense because we come from

15:52

so many different places in the

15:55

world and different ways of

15:55

understanding Judaism. And that

15:57

not not every Jewish person

15:57

realizes the true diversity of

16:01

Jewish people. And so I'm

16:01

curious in your research, how

16:06

that has impacted both your

16:06

experience as an Uruguayan

16:10

Jewish woman and also just like,

16:10

how the Jewish communities

16:14

perhaps within Uruguay have

16:14

reflected on that as well too,

16:17

of just like learning about that

16:17

history, learning about that

16:20

diversity and learning more

16:20

about like the existence of

16:23

other Jewish people, if that

16:23

makes sense.

16:26

Of course,

16:26

the Jewish community didn't know

16:30

except for their own

16:30

intellectuals that weren't many,

16:34

how they they came, why they

16:34

came. They knew their own lives,

16:40

they, each individual's, but

16:40

they didn't know that the

16:44

Sephardic had different ways of

16:44

praying and different rituals

16:49

from the Ashkenazi. They didn't

16:49

know that there were Yiddish

16:55

elementary schools that were

16:55

making emphasis on the Yiddish

17:01

learning and not the Hebrew

17:01

lamb. They didn't know that the

17:04

Mizrahim had different ways of

17:04

performing the rituals, and

17:12

practicing religions. So this,

17:12

this book also made this

17:17

affirmation. In a way this is

17:17

kind of saying, okay, we are we

17:24

but inside a we, there's a lot

17:24

of differences. And there were

17:29

groups that are Zionist, there

17:29

are groups that are not Zio,

17:34

Zionist, there are groups that

17:34

are left wing groups that are

17:38

against the left wing, there are

17:38

groups are groups, por-Yiddish,

17:42

and there are groups pro-Hebrew.

17:42

And so this was able to be seen

17:48

in the book. Then there were

17:48

other students of mine, and

17:54

colleagues that started to go on

17:54

specifically, on the Jews that

18:00

came from Germany. There were

18:00

theses and PhD papers about

18:07

specifically some of these

18:07

subcommunities inside the Jewish

18:13

community. So when I started the

18:13

gateway to a lot of

18:18

developments, and then also what

18:18

I started as qualitative

18:25

research was very much accepted,

18:25

because you cannot work with

18:29

statistics. It doesn't mean the

18:29

statistics do not show what was

18:35

the real reason why the Jews

18:35

came to Latin America and to

18:39

Uruguay. And then then we I had

18:39

the opportunity two years ago to

18:45

go to the University of Florida,

18:45

who was doing an exhibition of

18:50

the publication, publications of

18:50

the Jewish communities, all over

18:55

Latin America. We found all

18:55

kinds of books in Hebrew, in

19:00

English, of all kinds of

19:00

ideologies, within Judaism, like

19:05

those that are not religious,

19:05

that those are very, very

19:09

religious. So, what is important

19:09

as you ask is to see this

19:14

diversity, and not to stereotype

19:14

a Jewish community as a

19:20

homogeneous, collective, because

19:20

they aren't. So every-- all

19:25

these is a lot in terms that if

19:25

my first book about this subject

19:34

was in 1986, all that has

19:34

happened in in the Uruguayan

19:40

society since 1986 to the

19:40

present there has to do with

19:46

this new way of moving thoughts

19:46

and moving the social

19:51

constructions to, to... from

19:51

homogeneity, to diversity, and

19:58

indirectly to lower social

19:58

prejudice.

20:01

I think what's interesting for me is I've tried to do more to

20:03

learn about the histories of my

20:06

family. And I think what I've

20:06

also learned is just a lot of...

20:10

a lot of people in my family

20:10

still carry a lot of trauma from

20:13

growing up at a time where, you

20:13

know, it will and this may lead

20:16

into the next question of just

20:16

the focus was, for example, my

20:19

mom's generation of trying to

20:19

just be as American as possible,

20:23

trying to be as much in the U.S.

20:23

as possible, to assimilate as

20:26

much as possible because of past

20:26

antisemitism abroad. And then

20:32

new anti semitism, or maybe some

20:32

of the same in the U.S. At the

20:36

same time, the moment that I

20:36

would ask the question to family

20:39

of like, can you tell me the

20:39

story, I would get the story.

20:42

But it was just an interesting

20:42

thing of just sometimes asking

20:45

the question, because even with

20:45

my father, I asked about our

20:48

family's history, and he just

20:48

said, "we never talked about it

20:51

growing up." And so it's just

20:51

one of those things that, you

20:53

know, finding ways to access the

20:53

stories is so important, because

20:56

we don't want to-- I don't want

20:56

them to be lost. And I think

21:00

that's such a powerful thing

21:00

that you have done such work to

21:03

keep these stories alive for

21:03

people in so many ways.

21:06

One

21:06

consequence of this research and

21:10

this book, and all these change

21:10

in the way of seeing the

21:14

Uruguayans seeing themselves up

21:14

as diversity, as a diverse

21:20

society was at an elementary

21:20

school, there was a new task

21:26

that was given to the children

21:26

that was a genealogic tree, no?

21:32

Do your genealogical tree. Not

21:32

the, not only the Jewish

21:38

schools, but all schools, it

21:38

started to be important for the

21:42

teachers and for the persons

21:42

that you know that are

21:48

interested in origins and

21:48

sources that the children could

21:52

know where do they come from,

21:52

where they come from? Who was

21:57

your grandfather? He was

21:57

Italian. Where did he come from?

22:01

From this little town in Italy.

22:01

Okay, what language did he

22:06

speak? aAnd everything on that.

22:06

So I think the notion of being

22:15

foreign, it could be positive,

22:15

is positive, is positive, in the

22:21

way that the children started to

22:21

learn that they weren't born in,

22:28

like a plant. They are not

22:28

plants, they had their roots.

22:33

And the rotts was, well, the

22:33

grandfather and great grandfath-

22:37

fathers, and also including the

22:37

Jewish people. So every person

22:43

that's Jewish now, in your way,

22:43

will tell you okay, my

22:47

grandfather came from me from

22:47

Ukraine. Where in Ukraine? Well,

22:51

this little town, this schtetl

22:51

in Ukraine, that doesn't exist

22:57

anymore. And so this is a kind

22:57

of education that children in

23:02

all countries should have.

23:04

Yeah, I mean, that is, that is not part of, I know, a lot of

23:05

people's experiences actually

23:09

being asked to sort of really do

23:09

that building of your history at

23:13

such a young age, which I feel

23:13

like can deeply shape you know,

23:16

how you also value yourself if

23:16

you're able to learn more about

23:19

that. Moving on to the topic of

23:19

Uruguay, I think, just in

23:24

learning more about you and

23:24

doing some research, you know, I

23:27

came across some different

23:27

writings about just even how you

23:30

have uh taken time to sort of

23:30

look at Uruguay as sort of a

23:34

nation state, the political

23:34

project of constructing what is

23:38

Uruguayanness, what does it mean

23:38

to be Urugyayan? And, and a lot

23:42

of times that what that does is

23:42

it creates narratives and

23:45

stories, some that have truth,

23:45

some that may be to push

23:50

political means or certain

23:50

goals. And I know that you've

23:53

done a lot of these studies is

23:53

you've named right through the

23:56

extent setting the experiences

23:56

of others groups and communities

24:00

that have been marginalized by

24:00

the state, whether that's women,

24:03

indigenous people, you've talked

24:03

a lot about Afr descendant

24:06

communities. So I'm just

24:06

curious, like, how does that

24:10

work you've done on sort of

24:10

studying the kind of history

24:14

will require as a nation state,

24:14

how is that related to or just

24:18

informed the study you've done

24:18

of Jewish diasporic communities?

24:23

Yeah, well,

24:23

you started studying, studying,

24:26

researching minorities and you

24:26

and you and researching the

24:31

whole society. Because for

24:31

example, if you compare your way

24:36

to, to Peru, or to Mexico, right

24:36

the two big nations that I have

24:43

a lot of native, native citizens

24:43

coming from surviving cultures

24:51

after the conquest, but Uruguay

24:51

doesn't have that. Doesn't have

24:56

native. Yes Uruguay wanted eh,

24:56

the Uruguayan society after the

25:02

end of the dictatorship. They

25:02

created m,yths, you know, they

25:07

wanted to be more Latin American

25:07

because they were called like,

25:10

European, like a European

25:10

country. They did-- you wouldn't

25:14

come, you wouldn't see any

25:14

natives. So where are the

25:18

natives? They have been

25:18

exterminated. They were very

25:21

few. So you're surprised by the

25:21

emergence of this, like clubs or

25:28

ONGS that are revindicated,

25:28

revindicate. Reclaiming, for,

25:34

for for the native identity. We

25:34

are descendants from the

25:39

Charruas, we are descendants

25:39

from the Guaranis. Actually, the

25:43

Guaranis, we're not completely

25:43

exterminated. And some of them

25:49

could live inside the Catholic

25:49

societies. But they are not a

25:54

number that could change this

25:54

European face of the Uruguayan

25:59

society. But where I then

25:59

started studying why the

26:05

Uruguayans needed myths, myths

26:05

with which be more like the the

26:12

nations in Latin America that

26:12

really had really a great big

26:16

component of native cultures

26:16

like Mexico where they speak

26:23

more than 300 hundred dialects,

26:23

Peru, Bolivia, even a part of

26:28

Brazil in the north. So I

26:28

started to write a why the

26:34

Uruguayans wants wanted to be

26:34

more like the other nations of

26:38

Latin America. And that's

26:38

because they had a sense of

26:42

guilt. And there were then the

26:42

artists were start, start to

26:49

write some dramas, some plays

26:49

about extermination, the last

26:55

one extermination of natives at

26:55

Salsipuedes. Salsipuedes is a

27:01

place. They were trapped and

27:01

exterminated by the descendants

27:07

of Spaniards. And when I wrote

27:07

this, I realized I was

27:11

researching like, like the

27:11

constructions that societies do

27:17

in order to solve eh, problems

27:17

of blame or guilty, or

27:24

insecurities. Okay, that changed

27:24

the whole Uruguayan mentality. I

27:30

wouldn't say that my writings,

27:30

not only me, is what I work with

27:36

two great important historians

27:36

Gerardo Caetano and Barr√°n. We

27:43

wrote three books about the

27:43

sensibility. What are the

27:48

sensibilities? The way of

27:48

feelings, the way the society

27:54

thinks about itself. Okay, so so

27:54

that was very important,

28:00

especially when the dictatorship

28:00

ended. And there was a need of

28:05

reframe the national identity.

28:05

Who are we? So? Are we really

28:11

democratic? Are we really not

28:11

religious like atheism in the

28:17

government? Do we have beliefs?

28:17

What are those beliefs to? Do?

28:22

We wish that the native what

28:22

would., wouldn't have been

28:26

exterminated? So, so all these

28:26

constructions were a matter of

28:33

research. So understanding what

28:33

is Uruguay also gave me light

28:40

into why they should have

28:40

construct prejudice. And what

28:44

were the problems they have to

28:44

be part of this kind of

28:49

European, so different from

28:49

Middle America from, from these

28:55

big countries with a lot of

28:55

native population.

29:00

What I hear what I hear you're talking about is this series of

29:01

dictatorships that happened in

29:05

Latin America in the 20th

29:05

century in particular, right?

29:08

You know, Uruguay being one of

29:08

those countries as well, too,

29:11

but just sort of like the

29:11

rebuilding moment of like, how

29:14

do we kind of recover? It sounds

29:14

like also, there's these

29:17

questions of what is our kind of

29:17

like, collective guilt In some

29:22

ways? You know, what, what

29:22

questions do we have to resolve?

29:25

And I think what you have named

29:25

to is like, what myths or

29:28

stories do we either have to not

29:28

necessarily recreate, but keep

29:32

reproducing, to make this nation

29:32

story a "reality." And I use

29:38

that with quotes just to say

29:38

like, as you've named, right,

29:41

like, every person's experience

29:41

is different based on who they

29:44

are. So that reality of being

29:44

Uruguayan may feel much more

29:49

accessible or real to some

29:49

people than others, depending on

29:52

what their experiences in a

29:52

community but also as they're

29:55

treated by the state.

29:57

Yeah, I

29:57

guess you just said it very

30:00

well, also, what is the mirror

30:00

in which you look, you're, you

30:09

look at yourself as a society.

30:09

Uruguayans have had, according

30:15

to my point of view, had to

30:15

remake their own identity after

30:20

the end of the dictatorship.

30:20

There are many things that

30:23

happened during the dictatorship

30:23

that showed the country the way

30:30

they were interpreting

30:30

themselves. So many people

30:35

didn't want to recognize that

30:35

they collaborated with a

30:38

dictatorship. And not everybody

30:38

thought it, it was so bad,

30:44

because before that, we had a

30:44

years of terrorism, years of how

30:50

do you say, disorder? Then

30:50

there's also, there was a

30:53

research, not by me, but other

30:53

like reporters about how not

31:01

honest they were. So that now

31:01

everything is coming to light,

31:06

because there was time enough

31:06

for the people to confess how

31:11

they worked, and where they get

31:11

the money, how they, what they

31:16

do with the stolen money, stolen

31:16

from the government, and stolen

31:21

from the private sphere. And so

31:21

everything is coming to light

31:26

now. It's not a beautiful

31:26

photograph, it's ugly. It's

31:33

ugly.

31:34

When you say the mirror, I think it makes me think that if you are

31:36

going to look at the mirror, you

31:39

have to be ready to see

31:39

everything. You can't just look

31:43

at some pieces and ignore the

31:43

rest. Working off of this sort

31:47

of discussion, I think I'm

31:47

curious in the work that you've

31:51

done and even understan, even

31:51

just this, this different type

31:54

of analyses you put forward

31:54

around the Uruguayan nation

31:57

state like where where do you

31:57

understand as Jewish Uruguayans

32:02

kind of seeing themselves,

32:02

right, and the different

32:04

understandings of race, of

32:04

gender, of class, of nationality

32:09

within Uruguay. Knowing that, of

32:09

course, like Jewish people, like

32:13

any community carry multiple

32:13

identities and different

32:16

experiences that we, as we

32:16

discussed, but I'm just curious,

32:19

like, you know, because I think,

32:19

obviously, the U.S. is different

32:21

in many ways. But you know, we

32:21

have this very specific

32:24

understandings of race and

32:24

gender. Like we've had a lot of

32:26

conversations in the US about,

32:26

you know, are white Jewish

32:30

people white, things of that

32:30

nature. So I'm just curious,

32:33

like, in Uruguay, yeah, what,

32:33

when it comes to these

32:36

conversations of how Jewish

32:36

people see themselves within the

32:39

nation state, what does that

32:39

look like? Or what are those

32:42

conversations'

32:43

There's a

32:43

lot of assimilation, as the new

32:47

generations, there's a lot. And

32:47

also, there's a lot of going

32:52

back to the rituals and becoming

32:52

more religious. That's the other

32:57

trend as the young people, like,

32:57

trying to go back to the roots

33:03

of Judaism. Judaism has certain

33:03

values and ways of thinking and

33:09

interpreting the world that that

33:09

certain the new generation, some

33:13

of them, they don't want to

33:13

lose, then it is easier to

33:20

adjust and to disappear. That's

33:20

easier, because then you don't

33:25

care about antisemitism, you

33:25

don't care about anything. But

33:29

the foundation of of Israel was

33:29

very important for the Jewish

33:35

community in Uruguay. It was a

33:35

small community but many people

33:41

decided, well, I have to

33:41

collaborate with Israel. It's,

33:46

it's not any country. It's not a

33:46

country like all other

33:49

countries. It's a country that

33:49

for many is a result of this

33:55

long, long, long waiting to come

33:55

back to coming back. For the

34:01

very religious is, is it's a

34:01

prophecy that theJewish people

34:07

would go back to this place. Not

34:07

to any place, to this place. And

34:13

so there was a lot of Alliyah,

34:13

from the Jewish community, to

34:19

Israel, especially young people.

34:19

There were these Jewish younger

34:24

youth organizations like,

34:24

Hashomer Hatzair, like Idema,

34:31

like all kinds of youth

34:31

organizations that were

34:37

preparing to come to live in the

34:37

kibbutzim. There's going to be

34:42

this place where there is not

34:42

any antisemitism. So. so there

34:47

was a lot of Alliyah from the

34:47

Jewish so it was from 40,000

34:52

people like in the middle of the

34:52

of the 50s or at 1950, 4, 40,000

35:01

Jewish people. They descended to

35:01

12,000 because their elders

35:08

would stay. I don't say that

35:08

everyone in the Jewish community

35:13

came to Israel. I'm saying that

35:13

they left for different places,

35:18

mainly to Israel. But some of

35:18

them went to the U.S., some of

35:23

them to Europe, some of them to

35:23

look for their roots in Germany,

35:29

where they have been expelled in

35:29

Spain, where they have been

35:34

expelled from, right? And so

35:34

that's, that's why Judaism is so

35:40

interesting historically.

35:40

Because there's a lot of things

35:46

going on at the same time to to

35:46

build this kind of identity. Who

35:51

are we?

35:52

You

35:52

know, something I think I think

35:54

about two, which is something I

35:54

think you talked about in your

35:57

answer is also like, where is

35:57

our home? Yeah. You know, which

36:02

is an interesting question to, I

36:02

think, for any Jewish person to

36:05

kind of ponder because, you

36:05

know, we have the power of

36:08

making any place our home, and

36:08

what you also referencing is the

36:11

fact that there are lots of

36:11

people who, in the wake of the

36:15

end of World War II and other

36:15

things, were trying to either

36:19

find new places where

36:19

antisemitism did not exist or

36:22

also rebuild other places as

36:22

well.

36:25

Yes, yeah.

36:25

Yes. So so it's looking for the

36:30

promised land. And this promised

36:30

land is in your mind, because in

36:38

the real world, it's not so easy

36:38

to find the promised land, but

36:43

it's a nice idea for Judaism,

36:43

the looking for the promised

36:48

land. And this diaspora is, the

36:48

almost, is a way, a school where

36:57

we all have learned during

36:57

millennials, a lot of things we

37:02

have learned a lot of things,

37:02

things all over the world, as

37:07

all cultures, and then bringing

37:07

this back to this promised land.

37:14

I know you've done a lot of different kinds of work, that

37:15

your your your academic work is

37:19

not strictly on anthropology,

37:19

you've also been a writer of

37:22

novels and poetry. How was doing

37:22

that work formed everything else

37:26

that you've done?

37:27

Yeah, well,

37:27

they both informing each other.

37:32

They just like academic work has

37:32

its rules, it's meth-

37:38

methodology. But at this other

37:38

way of interpreting reality is

37:43

fiction, it's fiction. All

37:43

fiction still has some touch

37:49

with real experiences, there is

37:49

not a fiction completely

37:55

divorced, by personal

37:55

experiences, even if those

38:00

experiences are not shown

38:00

realistically, in a work of art.

38:07

I've written about seven novels.

38:07

They all have a Jewish

38:11

character, or more than one. And

38:11

it's funny because that many

38:18

writers, many Jewish writers are

38:18

maybe afraid or shy to write

38:24

with about Jewish characters. In

38:24

being born in Uruguay or in

38:30

Latin America. So of course, I

38:30

had this need to write stories

38:39

about, that are connected to my

38:39

personal life, either my

38:45

Sephardic family on my mother's

38:45

side, or on my father's side,

38:51

but so transformed that you

38:51

wouldn't recognize it. But of

38:56

course, then then there is this

38:56

relationship, or I feel there is

39:02

this relationship with these

39:02

characters that I, I've, I've

39:07

met so well. So I um, what is

39:07

uh, rather is surprising for me

39:14

that all the prizes I was

39:14

awarded in Uruguay they don't

39:21

ever mention I am Jewish. He'll

39:21

say, Well, they say Teresa

39:26

Porzecanski wrote this novel

39:26

that analyzed the text. They

39:31

should write, someone should

39:31

write that I'm really Jewish.

39:36

And because also the novel is a

39:36

Jewish novel. This is not any

39:41

novel. And this shows how I

39:41

think they don't touch this

39:46

subject. It's a way of putting

39:46

into a void the subject of my

39:52

Jewish identity, the fact that

39:52

led me to write about this

39:57

Jewish characters. It's not a

39:57

coincidence. So I'm very

40:02

grateful for their words and

40:02

everything. But I would have

40:06

liked somebody to study this

40:06

relationship between being

40:10

Jewish and going into specific

40:10

subjects.

40:15

What

40:15

would you like in the audience

40:17

listening to this episode to

40:17

take way from the conversation,

40:20

whether that's a particular

40:20

point you've made a mark, just

40:23

something you want people to

40:23

even think about who are

40:26

Yeah, well,

40:26

the obvious thing is that the

40:26

listening? Jewish migration is not just any

40:31

migration. It was, it came to

40:37

Uruguay, because of specific

40:37

reasons. They were refugees. The

40:43

government in those years, would

40:43

forbid, some, some boats and

40:49

some people to get into Uruguay

40:49

like denying the visas, the

40:54

visas, for getting into Uruguay.

40:54

So, this shows how the

41:00

Uruguayana society wasn't

41:00

different of all societies with

41:04

this accumulation of prejudice.

41:04

And when what I would like to

41:10

the people to understand is that

41:10

social prejudicethis is a

41:16

construction of stereotypes, a

41:16

simplification and

41:20

generalization that no society

41:20

can afford to have to maintain.

41:27

Because it's dividing. It's

41:27

going against the community, and

41:33

it's dangerous. It's dangerous.

41:33

And I want to thank you. I will

41:40

recommend the Fulbright

41:40

Commission to go on awarding

41:46

these scholarships, I think they

41:46

are very useful. So thank you, a

41:50

lot. Jeremy,

41:51

Thank you so much, Teresa, for your time today.

41:56

And that's all for this episode

41:56

of Fulbright forward. Thank you

41:59

so much for listening. For a

41:59

list of resources mentioned in

42:01

today's episode, you can go to

42:01

the Fulbright Forward website

42:04

hosted on our Buzzsprout page.

42:04

Remember also, you can subscribe

42:08

to Fullbright Forward through

42:08

your favorite podcast app like

42:10

Apple podcasts or Spotify, as

42:10

well as follow the podcast and

42:13

Instagram. Again I'm Jeremy

42:13

Gombin-Sperling Fulbright

42:17

Diversity and Inclusion liaison

42:17

for programs in the Western

42:19

Hemisphere. Be well stay safe,

42:19

and until next time,