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1:06

To Hey there.

1:09

Welcome to football with Grantwall. Thanks so

1:11

much for joining me. Before we get going,

1:13

you can subscribe to my writing site at

1:15

grantwall dot com. I am in

1:17

Qatar for the duration doing

1:19

daily coverage of World Cup twenty two.

1:22

That's grant Wahl dot com. Let's

1:24

bring in Chris Whittingham from

1:26

South Florida. How are you? Doing alright,

1:28

Serge. In in trying to I

1:31

I found myself in the last couple of days, like, needing

1:33

to get up for the World Cup again because

1:36

the the US going out sort of took it out of me.

1:38

But I'm like, today, Wahl in the full

1:40

swing of it. I Wahl the whole

1:42

of Brazil dismantling poor

1:45

South Korea. I was really into that

1:47

sort of back and forth breakneck game

1:49

between Croatia and

1:52

Japan. So some some really

1:54

good games today. Well, I guess maybe

1:56

the the South Korea Brazil game was good, but

1:58

the the goals and the football was good.

1:59

So yeah. Now I'm I'm I'm fully back

2:02

in. I'm recovered and and back up off the bat

2:04

after the devastating US defeat. You

2:06

know, that's good to hear. I was just

2:08

telling you before we started recording. Like,

2:10

my body hit a point

2:13

probably sometime yesterday

2:16

right as I was finishing my magazine

2:18

story from my site off

2:20

the US Netherlands game. I

2:23

think it's cumulative lack of sleep

2:25

and respiratory stuff,

2:27

but I think I have bronchitis At

2:31

least it's not COVID. But I know that because I've been testing.

2:33

Hope you're okay. No.

2:36

Like, I I think I am. I'm feeling better.

2:38

So basically, I went to the medical

2:40

clinic at the main media center

2:42

today. They took a look

2:44

at me and the and

2:48

they were like, yeah, we think you probably

2:51

do. So they gave me some antibiotics, they

2:53

gave me some cough syrup, some ibuprofen, and

2:56

I'm already feeling a little better just a few

2:58

hours later. Like, it'd gotten pretty bad

3:00

in terms of, like, the tightness in my chest,

3:02

tightness pressure, feeling

3:05

pretty hairy bad.

3:08

What would you have done if the US had made what

3:10

would you have done if the US had made the quarter final?

3:12

but you've had to, like, figure out a way to keep

3:14

powering through it or I like, that's how

3:16

I do things. I power through. Yeah.

3:18

It may not be the smartest thing ever,

3:20

but that's sort of how I roll, especially

3:23

when, like, everyday counts at the World Cup.

3:26

And there's always something going on. Now I will

3:28

say this if the US had gotten to quarter

3:30

finals. There would have been a nicer, nice

3:32

longer break between

3:35

the round of sixteen game and the quarter finals.

3:38

And, you know, like,

3:40

this isn't my first rodeo. I've done eight of

3:42

these on the men's side. And so, like,

3:45

I've gotten sick to some extent at every

3:48

tournament. And

3:50

it's just about trying to find

3:52

a way to, like, get your work done,

3:55

remember to sleep, remember to

3:57

eat and

3:59

and you'll be okay. The

4:01

one thing that you don't do with this

4:03

tournament it's very hard to do

4:05

is, like, to go out hard at night

4:08

because it's guitar and you're not

4:10

going to be doing that. So

4:14

I I do remember my first Wahl Cup

4:16

Wahl Sports Illustrated, it was in nineteen ninety eight in

4:18

France, and I

4:20

did go out pretty strong. a

4:22

few times early in the tournament and

4:25

paid the price for that. This

4:27

is an endurance test. I'm

4:29

here for thirty especially when there's

4:31

more I thought when you say earlier, the thing that

4:33

I didn't that you don't do at this World Cup that used

4:35

to do is I thought you were gonna say travel.

4:38

like, the the the lack of travel and sleeping in

4:40

the in in the same in the same bed, figured

4:42

it might have helped, but I guess there I

4:44

I've not been in that in that pressure cooker before,

4:47

so you having been there. Like, it it's funny

4:49

how you you sort of say that your body

4:51

can't handle it, which is funny because

4:53

we're talking about, like, the pressure that these players

4:55

are under and and, you know,

4:57

they they will presumably feel something similar.

4:59

Yeah. I mean, like, the Brazil World Cup was

5:01

actually the toughest one in twenty fourteen

5:03

travel because we would have these five and

5:06

six hour flights from Sao Paulo where

5:08

the US was based in the house

5:10

or receive a or net

5:12

Wahl. And a lot of those Brazilian

5:14

flights would take off at, like, two in the

5:16

morning. And so it'd throw you

5:18

off for an entire day thereafter. And

5:21

and that was always really hard. I mean,

5:23

I I don't wanna sound like I'm complaining. I

5:25

I love covering this event, but

5:27

it challenges you in

5:29

a major Wahl.

5:32

it challenges you mentally, physically

5:34

and know we're not playing, but

5:37

you know, like, it was just interesting to

5:39

observe how my body got

5:42

me through writing my magazine story

5:44

on the US Netherlands game, which

5:47

I had I always promise goes up at nine AM

5:49

eastern, so that was at basically five

5:51

PM local time yesterday. And

5:53

after I I finished and posted

5:55

it, like, there

5:57

is this just

5:58

the capitulation

5:59

involuntary capitulation

6:03

by my body and and mind.

6:06

And so it's been

6:08

an interesting twenty four

6:10

hour. Yeah. Yeah. For

6:12

me, it's sort of the same thing.

6:14

Like, III hit a bit of all. Actually,

6:16

mine came very early. Like,

6:18

on, like, day three, I was like, oh, boy.

6:20

I'm getting sick. Like, I've I've I've only just

6:22

begun. And then, thankfully,

6:24

it wasn't too bad. Back here, I don't know what the

6:26

situation is in Qatar if everyone's

6:29

getting sick. But back here in the States,

6:31

everyone I know has either like

6:33

COVID or a really bad flu.

6:36

Like, there's a lot of sickness going around right

6:38

now, so it is you Wahl be hard pressed

6:40

to avoid all that stuff. There haven't been too

6:42

many COVID cases I've run into here,

6:44

if you were than I expected, actually. I thought there might

6:46

be some outbreaks. because you got people coming

6:48

in from all over the Wahl. But

6:50

there has been a lot of flu, a lot of

6:52

colds, quite a bit of bronchitis,

6:55

the And

6:58

that's just part of the

7:00

gig. But you know, at

7:02

least I have my voice as you can tell now.

7:05

And let's talk about

7:07

what's happened in the last two days since

7:09

the US was eliminated. And what we

7:11

seen is a distinctive pattern

7:13

starting in the US game where

7:15

you had all of these upstart

7:17

teams non traditional powers getting

7:19

to the round of 16, none

7:22

of them are winning games here.

7:24

And it's just a complete domination

7:26

by the heavyweight teams. Brazil

7:29

four South Korea one, Croatia

7:31

advances on penalties over Japan,

7:34

France three, Poland one, England

7:37

three Senegal nil. And

7:39

it's gonna set up some really

7:41

mouth watering match ups in the quarter finals.

7:45

And I'm excited for those.

7:47

I'm excited for Argentina and Netherlands.

7:49

I'm excited for England,

7:51

France. and Brazil Croatia.

7:54

And I guess we'll see tomorrow

7:56

if Spain and Portugal can

7:59

advance

7:59

I would like to see one Upstart make it.

8:02

I'd like to see Morocco beat Spain

8:04

maybe.

8:04

I don't

8:06

think that's going to happen though. And

8:08

it

8:10

makes me wonder if

8:14

as much as, you know, we

8:16

talked about Upstart Teams getting

8:18

out of the groups. This just

8:20

seems very chalky to me.

8:22

Yeah. And and we talked earlier

8:24

and you sort of peputed,

8:26

but the notion of sort of like group stage

8:28

privilege, like how I mean, and and there

8:30

are good teams that went out, Belgium went out, Germany

8:32

went out, but I do think you like, the bigger

8:34

teams approached the group a bit differently. Japan had

8:36

to give everything against

8:39

Germany and and against Spain in

8:41

order to win those games and then we

8:44

we can't really say they ran out of gas. They

8:46

they performed reasonably well in that game

8:48

and then just didn't make their penalties.

8:50

So you don't wanna make too much of it,

8:52

but to me, I I agree with you. And I would

8:54

sort of love to know what that is. I do

8:56

know that going into the knockout

8:58

round, we have a podcast in the

9:00

Metallart family called underdog that tries

9:02

to identify the best ways

9:04

to to identify the

9:07

teams that are underdogs

9:09

that are going like, what what is this sort of

9:11

trend line, man, all these? And they came

9:13

on our show that Mike Ryan Luiz and I do

9:15

called morally abhorrent, And

9:19

they basically said that the

9:21

difference between these these teams is

9:23

too big, and that history

9:25

suggests that and and they used

9:27

Elo, the the statistical ranking,

9:29

as a way of saying that the gap is

9:31

too big between the favorite and the

9:33

underdog, and they actually predicted a fairly

9:35

chalky round of sixteen, which is what we've

9:37

gotten. And I I just would love to

9:39

know why because like you said, the group stage

9:41

was incredibly wonky. There are great games all

9:43

the time. And these games aren't even,

9:45

like, that close until the like, Japan and

9:47

Croatia I mean, Argentina, Australia

9:49

went down at the end, but it sort of came from a

9:51

freak goal and then, you know, they're freaking out for

9:53

the final minutes. But the games haven't even

9:55

been relatively competitive. They haven't been

9:57

crazy. And I love to know

9:59

why that is. Like, what is it that's different

10:01

about the group stage versus the knockout round?

10:03

The single elimination element that

10:05

almost sharpens and focuses

10:07

you don't have to think about sort of multiple

10:09

games, you're thinking about one. But even

10:11

when you watch, like, a premier league season

10:13

or, you know, a league season and other

10:15

leagues, The favorites get knocked off once in a

10:17

while in single elimination competitions, in

10:19

cup competitions. Like, it's not crazy to

10:21

see big teams go out. And yet, for

10:23

whatever reason, all six teams have

10:25

found their metal and have found their

10:27

better play and sort of exerted their

10:29

quality. Like we talked the other night about the

10:31

Netherlands and the US and how the Netherlands

10:34

in big moments, and Greg Berelter talked about how they

10:36

have a Memphis to Pie, and we don't. Like,

10:38

that, like, that notion suggests

10:40

that they just have more talent and their quality

10:42

shows in games that are decided

10:44

by moments, which a lot of these are. And so

10:46

even when Senegal has two or three

10:48

good chances, they don't convert them

10:50

against England. And then England get one, and

10:52

Jordan Henderson finishes it and then they're

10:54

away. Like, it's it's it's interesting how

10:56

the shape of the game feels so much different

10:58

at this stage as opposed to the group. No,

11:00

you're right. I think teams approach it

11:02

differently. In the the the incentive

11:05

system in the group stage is just

11:07

different. And you can spread things

11:09

out over three games you don't need three

11:11

points from every game. And and no team

11:13

got three points from every game in the

11:15

group stage this time. Yeah.

11:18

I I thought of

11:18

all this the upstarts that had a chance to

11:21

to win the round of sixteen games. I thought

11:23

Japan had the best

11:25

chance of anyone and the and

11:27

Like you said, one one,

11:29

they were ahead, gave up a nice

11:31

equalizer from Paracatu, and

11:34

Croatia is just really tough on

11:36

penalties. The last several world Wahl. And

11:40

it wasn't even really that close,

11:42

but in that sense,

11:45

And I thought the US actually had a shot to

11:47

advance against the

11:49

Netherlands and, you

11:51

know, was dispatched three

11:53

one And,

11:54

and frankly,

11:55

I don't think Morocco is going to beat

11:58

Spain. I and this

12:00

the Switzerland Portugal game is, you

12:02

know, less up sturdiest two

12:04

European teams. But

12:06

I've always sort of thought Switzerland

12:08

is underrated. I I had them

12:10

going away in this tournament. But In

12:14

any

12:14

case, it's gonna set some great quarterfinal matchups.

12:16

I'm gonna actually go and attend those

12:19

games and write about them, which I'm excited

12:21

about. because I I only

12:23

attended one non US game in

12:25

this tournament. Kilian

12:28

and Bape, I wanna ask you about because

12:31

he's on five goals in four games,

12:33

leading the Golden Boot Race.

12:35

France looks really

12:37

good right now. Even though Poland

12:40

not very good, the team they beat.

12:42

What do you make of

12:45

mbappe? And do you think he

12:47

can keep this up? And can France keep

12:49

this up? I think that I mean,

12:51

obviously, I think France can certainly keep it up.

12:53

They're one of the most talented teams of this

12:55

tournament. And The only thing that

12:57

stopped us from picking them to do well is

12:59

this World Cup

13:01

winner's curse. And you have to give

13:03

huge credit to Day Shop who who stayed

13:05

on who stayed on, I believe, for a third

13:07

World Cup cycle, and to

13:09

the squad for

13:11

not allowing the disease

13:13

of me or the

13:15

other elements that have stopped previous

13:17

team's generations from getting too old and I

13:20

guess having a nineteen year old lead, the last

13:22

World Cup helps stop you from

13:24

or even I think, like, with the Germans in

13:26

twenty fourteen, we saw how some of them just sort of

13:28

fell off the face of the earth because it felt like they

13:30

achieved the very

13:32

pinnacle that one can in the sport. Right. For

13:34

whatever reason, that hasn't stopped the French

13:36

from really doing that. I think maybe turning over

13:38

a few players through injury might have

13:40

helped you look at the way that that midfield is

13:42

different because Kante and Pogba aren't

13:44

there, but they might have been just fine

13:46

with Kante and Pogba too. They're just a really

13:48

good team that's more talented than most of their

13:50

opponents, and they don't seem to have been

13:52

placated or satisfied by having won the

13:54

thing four years ago. And that

13:56

is a surprise. And with Embapay in

13:58

particular, it's really interesting how

14:01

much more he's doing at

14:03

the World Cup than really

14:05

any of the best

14:07

ever generational players that

14:09

have come before him in the last twenty

14:11

years, really since as

14:13

you've heard him, OG Ronaldo, really,

14:15

that there there hadn't been players that have performed

14:17

at the World Cup at this level that

14:19

are considered the game's great. So you think of

14:22

met I mean, obviously, you start with Messi and

14:24

Ronaldo, but even Neymar. Neymar hasn't lit

14:26

up the Cup before or gotten his

14:28

team to a final. So it's it's

14:30

fascinating that in Bape at this age. Almost

14:32

in some ways by going to Paris, Germane,

14:34

by playing in France. So it gets to ramp

14:36

up for big tournaments. Like, you're not giving

14:39

your out you're giving your all or

14:41

performing to the best of your ability. Every single

14:43

week, you're saving it for champions

14:45

leagues, for euros, and for world cups. And that

14:47

allows him to sort of really go for

14:49

it. And it's remarkable how well he

14:51

plays. I I continue to think that he's gotta

14:53

go to a premier league giant or a

14:55

Spanish giant biren

14:57

Munich or U ventus to

14:59

really sort of prove his top

15:01

top level, you know,

15:04

performance is week in, week out in Europe. He doesn't

15:06

have to do that in France. But

15:08

as a Wahl cup player, which for

15:10

a lot of people particularly casuals to

15:12

this sport, means more than anything else you can

15:14

do in the game, it's remarkable

15:16

how well he shows at this tournament. He's

15:18

already got more goals in Cristiano Ronaldo at

15:20

the World cup. It's insane how

15:22

well he's performing. He's only twenty

15:24

three years old. He is carrying a nation

15:26

on his back and seems to relish

15:28

it, which is sort

15:30

of the opposite of what a lot of these

15:32

top stars deal with. A lot of them

15:34

are sort of not

15:36

afraid of, but are odd or

15:38

broken by the pressure that they

15:40

feel. And so they don't perform

15:42

at their at at the very highest level that

15:44

they take too much on, too much responsibility.

15:47

much running, not enough passing, but

15:49

Impape just seems to be his cool

15:51

calm self at his very best

15:53

performing at his highest level at this tournament, and

15:55

it's in pain for a player of his

15:57

age. Just crazy high

15:59

quality goals

15:59

against Poland from

16:02

Bape. Well, I mean, when you

16:04

look at this match up, in the quarter

16:06

finals of France against England.

16:08

I'm really excited by it

16:10

because I

16:10

do think Jude Bellingham from

16:13

England is

16:14

having a very good tournament. It was fantastic

16:16

in their win against Senegal.

16:19

Did some things just

16:21

barreling down the midfield that

16:23

we haven't seen from other players in

16:26

this World Wahl. And

16:28

he's just nineteen.

16:30

it's interesting talking to people who

16:32

are seeing Belling and play live for

16:34

the first time, just about how good

16:36

he is,

16:37

how big his personality is

16:39

on the field during

16:41

a game, just jabbering with

16:44

reps, teammates, everyone, taking

16:46

over attacking plays. And

16:49

he's also just physically a

16:51

imposing guy. Yeah. And he's just

16:53

nineteen, and it's it's a

16:55

really intriguing test, I

16:57

think, for England and

16:59

France to meet in the quarter finals.

17:02

And I I think France is gonna have a

17:04

slight edge, but it wouldn't

17:06

stun me if England wins this game. I

17:08

I do think Both

17:11

these teams are capable of winning the tournament.

17:14

And as a result, I'm

17:16

really excited to see what it

17:18

might bring. Wahl, and and that's sort of what

17:20

this quarterfinal promises.

17:22

Right? Even looking ahead to

17:24

Tuesday's games, if

17:26

it's Spain and Portugal, You have

17:28

an Iberian Darby. You

17:30

have England, France. You have the

17:32

Netherlands, Argentina. You

17:34

have Brazil taking on Croatia, which

17:36

is probably like, not the best matchup on paper of

17:38

the four, but, I mean, the Croatia got to

17:40

the damn final last time. And and the

17:42

Croatia are going to take some killing. It's

17:44

not going to be straightforward, you you

17:47

dispatch of the Croatian. They're a

17:49

very difficult team to knock out of a knockout

17:51

tournament. And so all four

17:53

quarter finals would set up in that scenario

17:55

to look really good. But I I think England fan

17:57

sets up as the best of a lot. And I think it

17:59

requires a little bit of a rethink about

18:01

what England is because

18:03

you know, a lot of people like to

18:05

joke about what a joke

18:07

England were at previous international tournaments. I

18:10

remember actually covering England one of

18:12

my first soccer assignments was covering England when they

18:14

did their pre twenty fourteen

18:16

World Cup warm ups in Miami because they

18:18

wanted to get used to Brazilian conditions.

18:20

So they played a friendly

18:22

against Ecuador and friendly against Honduras

18:24

at Miami's football stadium

18:26

because they wanted to familiarize

18:29

themselves with playing in hot and

18:31

humid conditions, and so they

18:33

did. And I remember Ross Barkley

18:35

got hurt. That was, like, the big the big story of that of

18:37

that tournament because Ross Barkley was sort of the up

18:39

and coming player at the time.

18:41

But the thing about that team then

18:43

was it was always kind of thought of as a

18:45

basket case and it really came to a

18:47

fore when to Iceland in the

18:49

twenty sixteen euros. But in the

18:51

last two major tournaments, Garrett Southgate has just

18:53

made them a normal national

18:55

team that likes coming to play

18:57

together that accentuates the talents of his

18:59

best players. That doesn't have political

19:01

dynamics that doesn't get into, you know, the

19:03

tabloids or have the the the media

19:05

working against it. Garrett Southgate is

19:07

sort of politically in a weird way as well as

19:09

tactically coach his team to just be

19:11

a normal good national team

19:13

that produces good young players

19:15

and is frankly spoiled

19:17

for choice. Like, the the, you

19:19

know, they have to leave somebody out of

19:21

their starting lineup, but going to be

19:23

really really good. Like when they play

19:25

floating in soccer, then Jack Reelage

19:27

isn't playing. When they play, you

19:29

know, know, Henderson, Bellingham, and

19:31

Rice. They leave Mason Mountain out of the team. Like,

19:33

they have to make really difficult lineup choices

19:35

because they're really good. They're really talented. And

19:37

so I actually do think that England

19:40

can be, if not on par,

19:42

then just underneath on

19:44

par with France just because the

19:46

Pay talent, takes them to another level

19:48

in France of other great players. Like

19:51

Demballet, like Griezmann, I think he's played very well

19:53

with his tournament. Gheeru getting the

19:55

record goal too many in midfield. Their

19:57

their defense has been pretty solid as well.

19:59

Like, they have an unbelievable collection

20:02

of players. And so I do think that England can give

20:04

them a a genuine goal, but that requires

20:06

that you no longer think of them as, oh, they

20:08

just choke. their their national team

20:10

that that never lives up to expectations. I

20:12

actually think in the last two tournaments they have

20:14

lived up to expectations. And that is that

20:16

is a departure and I think worthy of

20:18

our respect. wasn't expecting to hear Ross

20:20

Barkley's name in this podcast. So

20:22

thanks for throwing that out there. But

20:26

I it's

20:28

It

20:28

is interesting. III think

20:30

just with with England and

20:33

France. I

20:34

actually it's awful what happened

20:36

to Rahim Sterling that he had to leave

20:38

temporarily England's camp because there was

20:40

a burglary at his home in London.

20:44

And at

20:46

the same time, I

20:49

I kind of think Phil

20:52

Foden's more

20:52

dangerous right now than Rahim Sterling.

20:54

and

20:54

and I I think

20:57

we'll probably see Phil Frode and start again

20:59

against France. I

21:01

like Mason Mountain as player, but

21:03

I think Jordan Henderson's been better

21:05

in this tournament. And

21:07

it's nice for Garrett Southgate to

21:09

have those options to choose from.

21:13

But, you know, this is that's a heavyweight

21:15

battle, and I'm just very excited to see it. The

21:17

Argentina and Netherlands game, I think a

21:19

lot of people who've been watching the game for a while are

21:21

gonna think back to the ninety eight quarter

21:23

final between Argentina and the Netherlands with

21:25

the amazing bird camp goal.

21:27

There was a lot going on in that

21:30

game.

21:30

And it's

21:32

a weird one because

21:34

I don't wanna sound disrespectful of

21:36

this Dutch team. They beat the US three to one.

21:38

I still don't think they're as

21:40

good as most Dutch teams I've seen

21:42

in the past and and

21:45

yet the same time, I don't think this Argentina team

21:47

is quite as good as I was expecting. They're

21:49

playing better in the last couple of

21:52

games, and they're there does seem to be a

21:54

bit more teamwork in

21:56

the attack and not just relying on

21:58

Messi to do something individual.

21:59

Wahl

22:01

I

22:03

feel like neither one of these

22:05

teams is as good as France or England. Is that

22:07

off base? I I agree. I think Argentina or

22:09

a team that still talked about is sort of

22:11

one of the the the the very biggest

22:13

favorites, but that's not really what

22:15

I've seen. And I mean, to to

22:17

some extent, I think ever since the Saudi Arabia game,

22:20

when things just got out of control for five

22:22

minutes, they ever bounced back. I would say from a

22:24

defensive point of view, they have been much better. They

22:26

sort of exercise their control of the game

22:28

by having more of the ball, by

22:30

being more controlling, and

22:32

they're they're more difficult to play against I

22:34

think than previous Argentina teams. I think that's kind of

22:36

they're defining quality under Wahl is that,

22:39

yeah, they might not be brilliant going forward, but they

22:41

can win moments because they have messy.

22:43

They have in theory, Lothado Martina

22:45

as early as and played well the tournament, but

22:47

Albarez and Daimler and all these players in

22:49

theory can win moments. But, yeah,

22:51

I I haven't I've been wowed by

22:53

Argentina. And up until that messy goal

22:55

against Australia, I don't think they were

22:57

very good. And so I think

22:59

that for me leaves AAA

23:01

game where I think it's gonna be, you know,

23:03

when I I always enjoy when

23:06

when games are boring, they're described

23:08

as tactical. I think this game is

23:10

going to be a very tactical game.

23:12

It's not gonna be very interesting. I don't think both

23:14

teams are no flying at each other. think these gonna

23:16

be two teams. They're gonna really struggle to find

23:18

ways through, and it's gonna, again, come

23:20

down to moments. And that's why people might

23:22

pick Argentina because Messi has

23:24

been in control of some of these moments. He has been

23:27

pulling the strings and and creating

23:29

chances and getting good strikes away

23:31

and it feels like a breakout game could potentially

23:33

be on for him. He could've had, like, a hatcher Wahl

23:35

for Martinez in the last ten minutes alone

23:38

against Australia. that chance for him to

23:40

to break the game open. And the

23:42

Netherlands, I don't think, have as good of

23:44

players in that respect as

23:46

Argentina does. That being said, we know that

23:48

Louisville is a brilliant manager,

23:50

especially at the World Cup with the Netherlands.

23:52

We know they can put together a game plan

23:54

to negate Argentina and figure out the

23:56

best ways to accentuate the qualities of his

23:58

players. And you have to give him all kinds of credit for

24:00

what did against the US, and the Netherlands

24:02

absolutely stand a chance. But I think it's going to be game

24:04

decided on fine margins. And when that's the

24:06

case, I would slightly favor Argentina in

24:08

that respect. Part of me is not trying to get

24:10

ahead of myself because I

24:12

would love to see an Argentina, Brazil semi final, and it

24:14

would just be off the charts to be

24:17

in that stadium. Brazil

24:20

made a statement tonight. Right?

24:22

So four nil at half

24:24

basically shut things down in the second half

24:26

against

24:27

the Koreans. But, like, when

24:29

Brazil was on in the first

24:31

half, it was beautiful to watch.

24:33

And probably my favorite

24:35

sort of offensive display

24:37

of this tournament. Just the

24:40

the number of goals, the

24:42

quality of the goals, the

24:44

teamwork involved in

24:46

producing the goals. And

24:48

Recharsen is my favorite

24:50

player in Brazil. It is

24:52

undisputed now he's

24:55

done some amazing things

24:58

in this tournament. And maybe the two

25:00

best goals the tournament now have been

25:02

scored by Richard Harrison.

25:05

in And on the

25:06

one he had tonight, he

25:09

was messing around, like,

25:12

on the

25:12

sequence, the

25:15

scoring sequence. you know,

25:17

he was always doing the old seal dribble from

25:19

Kura line of, like, keeping the ball on

25:21

just on his head like three or

25:23

four times. and the poor Korean

25:25

guy couldn't even get to it.

25:27

And

25:27

then the ball comes down, he controls

25:29

it, and does a wonderful one too.

25:31

And, like, it took me a while to realize

25:33

the

25:33

pass, the amazing Wahl,

25:36

was from Tiago Silva, etcetera,

25:37

back. Wasn't IIII thought it was

25:39

from Casa Miro. IIII must have

25:42

mistaken it. But yeah. I mean,

25:44

it's yeah. It was. You're right. It it it was from

25:46

Tagrisso. My apologies. But

25:48

yeah. Like, honestly, this is

25:50

the first time and I tried to I I'm going through and

25:52

I just don't have the context for some of these performance. It's

25:54

the Brazil from the commercials. Like,

25:57

it it's what like, when I was a when I

25:59

was a kid before the two thousand

26:01

six World Cup. And I remember the

26:03

Nike commercials that was with I

26:05

remember the whole Jogo Bonito campaign

26:08

and know who guy on the at the time. I realized now

26:10

is Eric Cantana, like, you know,

26:12

talking you through the street game and

26:14

Brazil were sort of the team to be

26:16

featured. Like, Brazil. and

26:18

like it was sort of like this this team with this

26:21

mystique and this they play the game better

26:23

than everybody else. And honestly, ever

26:25

since I started watching the

26:27

game, I don't think I've ever seen that of performance from Brazil at

26:29

this level of the World Wahl, like to

26:31

sort of rip a team apart. And so

26:34

clear be the better team skilled team and the team

26:36

with patterns and skill and

26:38

flare and the dancing and all

26:40

that stuff. IIII

26:42

always feel weird in saying that the the

26:44

manager's name because it's sort of it's just Chiche.

26:46

Chiche like, the the the way the way

26:48

that he like, put like, has

26:50

built this team over the qualifying

26:52

cycle for eighteen and the last four

26:54

years, has this team peaking

26:56

right now? they are coming together

26:58

and playing free, flowing Brazilian,

27:01

uniquely Brazilian, unique to

27:03

that yellow shirt football. That's

27:05

just like like gather your

27:07

friends and say, hey, you wanna watch soccer. You

27:09

wanna see what like this sport is at it at its highest

27:11

level. Normally, I'd say, watch the

27:13

Champions League. But at this tournament,

27:15

you can say, put Brazil on. Like, Brazil are living up to

27:17

the hype at this tournament or at least they did on this

27:19

night. And I don't know if they're gonna do it in the

27:21

next round when they play Croatia because it's

27:24

hard to sort of toy with a team like that, that's of the

27:26

quality of Wahl. But it was great to

27:28

just see, like, hey, man. If you wanna know what

27:30

this sport looks like at at its

27:32

very finest. Put put on Brazil's

27:34

opening forty five minutes against South Korea.

27:36

I'm I'm going to be telling people that for

27:38

years. It was amazing. And just

27:40

the the the quality of the goals every

27:42

single one was terrific. First

27:44

one, you had Ravinia just

27:46

barreling down the right side, hits

27:49

across that actually misses NAMAR, but

27:51

then goes to a wide open

27:53

Venetius junior who

27:56

and he he sat over it for a long time

27:58

before shooting. I was like, you ever get a shoot man

28:00

and finished

28:02

it perfectly. it

28:04

reminded me is that of the US goals conceded

28:07

against the Netherlands. Cut back pass,

28:10

guys wide open on the on the back

28:12

post, and, you know, in

28:14

that part of the penalty area.

28:16

And then, obviously, we

28:18

talked about the Rosales and Go.

28:20

And then the one

28:23

where Beany Junior lobs, it sort of

28:25

lifts it over the

28:27

defenders right to Lucas

28:29

Paketa, and he

28:31

finishes it really well. And it was

28:33

just So awesome to see.

28:35

Of course, Roy Keane

28:37

has reigned on the parade of

28:40

the Brazilians Like, I loved

28:42

it. I loved it too much.

28:44

Oh, their coach was

28:46

dancing with You know, they they

28:48

should they could have danced just once, but

28:51

that was excessive. I love that. Like,

28:53

that like, I think Roykeen,

28:56

like, deep down inside, you know, it's exactly what he's doing.

28:58

Like, he he is saying he is saying that with

29:00

an internal smile in this face. He's he's

29:02

elaborating like, look, I'm the

29:04

carmajan. I'm gonna play my role right

29:06

now on British television. Of

29:08

course, Roy Keane say that. Like, honestly,

29:10

I would be disappointed if he didn't say

29:12

that. I would be disappointed if Roy

29:14

Keane came on at halftime in ITV studio and said,

29:16

well, the dancing was beautiful. Look at

29:18

them and expressing themselves. Look man,

29:20

Roy Keane is about playing playing

29:22

soccer and two foot challenging someone.

29:24

These not about dancing on the field. I

29:26

will say I will say this if

29:28

the opponent had not been South Korea

29:30

but rather Uruguay, who thought they were

29:32

going to face Brazil in this game, and

29:34

the Brazilians had danced that much. You would have

29:36

seen some tackles come into their

29:39

diets. Honestly, on that

29:41

recharterly and third goal. And later in the game, I think

29:43

it was Raffinia had a moment where you started,

29:45

like, turning and turning and turning

29:47

and turning and and, like, the Brazilians turning on the flare.

29:49

There is a bit of me watching a game

29:51

going, god, if I were a Korean defender, I'd

29:53

kick someone right I'd kick some I lumps

29:55

out of someone. Like Namar did one skill move.

29:57

It was in the area. I would have given away a

29:59

penalty, but god, I just wouldn't want to have kicked him

30:01

so bad. Like, there is, like, that sort of

30:04

aggressive streak that for whatever reason comes out

30:06

in soccer where you're just like, God. Like,

30:08

you can let someone show you up like this,

30:10

but what can you do with Brazil other than to

30:12

stand and applaud? Yeah. And,

30:15

you know, I don't know if Brazil's gonna win this

30:17

tournament, but when they

30:19

won in ninety four, they

30:21

were a much more conservative team,

30:23

and they were

30:24

sort of marked by guys like Dunga

30:26

in the central midfield. You know, who was

30:28

a total hard man. And

30:30

I don't the ninety eighteen

30:32

he was still on Wahl had a

30:34

bit more flare. Like, that was Ronaldo with the

30:36

height of his powers and

30:39

there were other guys that team. And even the two thousand

30:41

two Brazil champions, you

30:43

know, that was Ronaldo, Ronaldo,

30:46

Ronaldo, Ronaldo, Ronaldo, like,

30:49

pretty class.

30:49

Like, the ninety fourteen, I think, stood out

30:51

for being too

30:53

hard man. You know, if

30:54

you talk to Brazilians, the

30:57

nineteen eighty two cup team, which did

30:59

not win, is their favorite, like just

31:01

in terms of the

31:03

most shining example

31:06

of Braziliness. that

31:08

they've ever had.

31:09

And I think,

31:11

to some extent, they're fans long for

31:13

that. And I don't think I would say this Brazil

31:15

team is exactly like eighty two,

31:17

but there are elements of eighty

31:19

two in what we saw tonight.

31:22

and

31:22

I just hope we to see them. You know, Croatia, I think

31:24

is gonna be a more difficult opponent, but

31:28

I also think Brazil's gonna win

31:31

that game. Agreed. And and to your point about, like, the

31:33

style, it's really hard to I mean, we've talked about

31:35

this before. It's hard to create an international

31:37

level for as good as the players have

31:39

always been it's hard to,

31:41

like, managers always

31:43

tend to, like, wanna figure out their defense

31:45

first and their salinity first because that's

31:47

the easiest thing to create. And

31:49

with Brazil, I imagine the mentality for most

31:51

managers, including Dunga himself, has

31:54

been, look man, we've got so many good attackers.

31:56

Like, we just need to be worried about

31:58

being solid and they'll just go do their

32:00

thing, whereas Chiche has

32:02

actually given thought to how this team is

32:04

going to attack. He's qualifying to build

32:06

the patterns. and and has figured out

32:08

a way to integrate all of the talents

32:10

into the team at the same time. We kinda saw them

32:12

play, frankly, in the way that Pep City

32:14

does. If you look at the way that the shape plays out

32:16

and still holding. I thought Matt did a good job pointing

32:18

this out on the Fox broadcast, where it's the,

32:20

you know, we play

32:22

a right back who's pretty defensive and

32:24

and the other full back will sort of move

32:26

into midfield. And so when they have the Wahl,

32:29

It's, you know, Tiago Silver

32:31

Martinez during the defense. Aidor Milital

32:33

steps back with them. Alexandra moves in

32:35

the midfield next to Kazimiro, and you're sort

32:37

of playing 325 and allowing five

32:39

attackers to go do their thing, and they've provided a

32:42

structure to attack when normally the

32:44

structure's been to defend. And I actually think

32:46

that Brazil not

32:48

being that Brazil from the commercials has always come

32:50

down to management. Their the the

32:52

managers down the years have never really allowed them

32:54

to express themselves in that way. Like you said

32:56

in ninety four, think it was the case in twenty

32:58

fourteen. And I think in twenty

33:00

eighteen, they were starting to come online, but they

33:02

haven't figured it out to the degree that they have now,

33:04

playing in Copa America's playing

33:06

in World Cup qualifying. They have

33:08

built the way they want to attack. And

33:10

honestly, the surprise that we didn't see it sooner

33:12

from Brazil at this World Cup. I thought in the group

33:14

stage they never really hit the gear that

33:16

they hit today again in South Korea. But when they hit it, it was

33:19

magnificent. Again, Brazil are for

33:21

me the team with the mystique, the

33:23

team that you know, are are this

33:25

vented? Like, I I remember, I the

33:27

first ever game I did with Ray Hudson was a

33:29

Wahl Cup qualifying game in the cycle

33:31

of twenty eighteen. And I I had, like,

33:33

we had a few conversation with him, but I never, like,

33:36

actually sat next to him and done a game, and it was

33:38

a Brazil game. I think I think they were

33:40

playing Paraguay. And there was a moment

33:42

where Brazil were sort of turning on the fouls just

33:44

when Chichai had had taken

33:46

over. And at one

33:48

point, gray shot in the in the commentary. These

33:50

yellow shirts could play one twos in

33:52

a phone booth. And, like, it was it was,

33:54

like, just like wonderful to watch them express themselves

33:56

in that Wahl. always happening in

33:59

in bursts, but never over the course of

34:01

forty five minutes like we saw on

34:03

Monday. It was magnificent to

34:05

watch. Wahl was like, sort of

34:07

at halftime was like, god. Like, in some ways, it feels cruel that

34:09

they have to play a second half. Let's just let

34:11

this first half performance stand

34:13

on its own. because it was just so wonderful

34:15

to watch. Yeah. I'm fired

34:18

up that we

34:19

might see Brazil being

34:21

truly Brazil here. Is

34:23

there anything you wanna talk about with the US men's

34:26

national team that we didn't talk about two nights

34:28

ago? I I do think that, you know, some of the

34:30

aftermath has been really

34:32

interesting. I I listened to as many podcasts as I could

34:34

diagnosing this thing. And

34:36

I I I've thought a lot about

34:38

what this means for twenty

34:40

twenty six I

34:42

think a lot of benchmarks are gonna be

34:44

set between now and

34:46

then, but, you know,

34:48

getting get gotta get to a semi final. I gotta get

34:50

to a final. I gotta gotta win the thing.

34:53

Ultimately, with this this next four

34:55

years is about because in some ways and

34:57

I I heard yeah. I I read you were you

34:59

were talking about this about one in

35:01

the US to get into Copa Medica in twenty twenty

35:03

four, perhaps even host it as a as a

35:05

dry run, maybe even create a

35:08

tournament in twenty twenty five to to to something

35:10

ready. I I think that the the

35:12

challenge in the next four years is what is the evolution

35:14

of the style and what is the evolution of

35:16

the player pool? Can you develop that

35:18

that depth in behind the current crop of players. And

35:21

how close can you get

35:23

to the very biggest nations in the world?

35:25

And how can you measure that?

35:28

over the course of the next four years because it's going to

35:30

be very difficult with the European Nations

35:32

League with the euros in twenty twenty four.

35:35

to schedule top level games against top

35:37

level European opposition. It just is going

35:39

to be really hard to do so. So how do

35:41

you measure yourself? And

35:44

I think does the American public go into that go

35:46

into that game? III received a tweet

35:48

today during the Brazil game. Somebody

35:50

just sort of ask me,

35:52

hey, how how can the Americans play like

35:54

that? And it's just

35:56

you you don't just you don't wake up one

35:58

morning and decide to play like the Brasilia

36:00

like, it you you are so generationally far

36:03

away. And that is sort

36:05

of a thing that I

36:07

I was humbled a little bit over the course of last forty eight

36:09

hours because I thought the US had a chance against

36:11

the Netherlands, and I thought their talent level and the way that

36:13

they played is, like, god, they can they can go toe to toe with

36:15

the very biggest teams. and

36:18

they couldn't. They couldn't over the course of

36:20

of seven games of the World Cup, not that they were

36:22

gonna get to the final, but you have to be

36:24

able to produce this. every game. It did

36:26

not seem like such an exertion, such a

36:28

we left it all in the field. And, like, there's a

36:30

level of ease that the US sorta

36:32

have to do this with going forward, which they don't have the luxury of having right now.

36:34

It's really hard for them to play like they did

36:36

in the group stage and get through

36:40

they they sort of have to do with more ease and continue to evolve and

36:42

be more natural and be sort

36:45

of more creative and improvisational

36:47

in the final third which

36:49

I think is a big target for a lot of these

36:51

attackers, Reina and Aronson, and Polisic,

36:54

and Leia. How can you be

36:56

do your part to create more? It's a bigger job on the

36:58

Century midfielders, Mckenney and Musa in particular

37:00

since they play more advanced positions. How do

37:02

you help create more for the team? Because

37:04

creation does not come naturally to

37:07

this team. And so I I've been thinking a lot about what

37:09

the next three and a half years look like,

37:11

both from a choosing the manager

37:13

standpoint, but how this nation

37:16

evolves as a footballing nation over that

37:18

period. So that come twenty twenty

37:20

six, there is more of a feeling that the

37:22

US is on level pegging with some of these

37:24

bigger teams. To answer the text from your friend, I

37:26

would suggest that even if

37:28

the US does get to a point on the

37:30

men's side where they're going

37:32

on deep runs in the World

37:34

Cup as soon as twenty twenty

37:36

six, it's gonna look more like

37:38

Germany than like Brazil. Yeah.

37:40

Right? Like,

37:42

Germany has really good

37:44

technical players and some

37:46

real individual talents. You see like

37:48

a musiata here in

37:50

this tournament, and a real tactical advancement as

37:52

well. Like, they're they're incredibly astute tactically.

37:55

Right. But that's what the US, if

37:57

it's gonna be a world power in

37:59

the sport, on the men's side is going to look like

38:01

eventually. I don't see the US playing

38:03

like Brazil tonight and it's

38:05

just a very cultural thing

38:08

that

38:08

every other

38:09

country in the world has

38:11

been unable to reproduce. Yeah.

38:13

And and it's it's not an it's a

38:16

cultural thing. It starts from when

38:18

you first kick a ball that's

38:20

made out of rags

38:22

and playing amino Hasson, who who works with us at

38:24

Meadowmarken, is from Sudan, but has a

38:26

huge affinity

38:28

for Brazil. sort of talked about, like,

38:30

the the cultural elements of growing up playing soccer

38:32

in Brazil and the the the positions you

38:34

find yourself in and how everything is

38:36

sort of, like, alright, let's go play. like like

38:38

everything in in you in the daily life of

38:40

children is how do we go play in like, it doesn't

38:42

have to be on in AYS0

38:44

field that is perfectly measured out

38:46

dimensions and and, you know,

38:48

freshly cut grass and fresh new

38:50

uniforms and and, you know,

38:52

gold nets and all that stuff. It's like, no, man. Let's

38:54

let's go get a ball and play in the street if we

38:56

have to or play five aside on a

38:58

dirt patch somewhere. That's just a that's a

39:00

culture that the US can simply never

39:02

have. Unless, you know,

39:04

like, unless soccer

39:06

wrestles away the imagination of children in inner cities

39:08

from the age of five, which

39:10

is going to be really difficult because football

39:12

and basketball are immensely popular in

39:14

our country. But, like,

39:16

culturally, the way that Brazil goes

39:18

about every footballer having an

39:20

extremely high level of improvisation

39:22

and technical

39:24

ability is almost impossible to recreate in the United

39:26

States. Good stuff, Chris. Thank you. Thanks,

39:28

Grant. Thanks for listening to football with

39:30

Grant Wall. like to thank producer

39:32

and pundit, Chris Whittingham. You can now

39:34

sign up for for your paid subscription to my

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