0:05

>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your

0:08

source for insights and ideas on how to lead your

0:11

church into the 21st century.

0:15

At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to

0:18

pastors, authors and other faith leaders for helpful

0:21

advice and practical wisdom to help you and your

0:24

community of faith walk boldly into the future.

0:27

Now here's your host, Lauren Richmond Junior.

0:33

>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today we're

0:36

welcoming Carol Howard to the show. Reverend Carol

0:39

Howard is the award winning author of several books,

0:42

including Wounded pastors, navigating Burnout,

0:45

Finding, healing, and discerning the future of your ministry, and

0:48

healing spiritual wounds, reconnecting with a loving

0:51

God after experiencing a hurtful

0:53

church. Carol is a frequent contributor

0:56

to books, websites, magazines, and journals.

0:59

She was a regular columnist at the Christian Century,

1:02

where her blog was hosted. She's a

1:04

Presbyterian Peace USA minister in a village

1:07

church outside of New York City. Let's welcome Carol

1:10

to the show. Uh, all right.

1:21

>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. This is Loren

1:24

Richmond junior, and today I'm pleased to welcome

1:26

Reverend carol Howard to the show. Thanks so much for being

1:29

here. >> Carol Howard: It's great to be here. Thank you so much for the

1:33

invitation. Yeah. >> Loren: Glad to have you. So, just for our listeners today, I am recording

1:38

from home with the kids, home from spring break. So

1:41

there may be some guest voices in the

1:44

background. So I appreciate your

1:46

patience and continue to listen through here as we have this

1:49

conversation with Carol. But, uh, Carol, I appreciate

1:52

your presence here. Anything else you'd like our listeners to know about

1:55

you? >> Carol Howard: Um, well, no,

1:59

not too much. I was trying to

2:02

just think of something fascinating and

2:04

interesting, but I don't know.

2:08

I was always bad at that party game.

2:11

>> Loren: It's so much exhausting trying to think about

2:14

what makes that whole.

2:18

What's so special about me for those kind of things.

2:21

>> Carol Howard: Right, right, right. I can tell

2:23

you like my favorite

2:26

food. I don't know. >> Loren: What is your favorite food?

2:29

>> Loren: How about that? >> Carol Howard: Okay. I would say I like

2:33

italian food. It's good.

2:35

You know? So, like, lately I've

2:38

been like, my favorite food will change every day,

2:41

but lately I've been really

2:44

wanting some, like,

2:47

lasagna. Um, what about you? What's your

2:49

favorite food? Yeah, my six year old, probably salmon.

2:53

>> Loren: Uh, my six year old son is, like, obsessed right now with dad.

2:56

What's your favorite food? He's always asking us that, so.

2:59

And he's like, my favorite food is chicken nuggets. Like, shocking for

3:02

a six year old. >> Carol Howard: Right, right.

3:06

>> Loren: So what about you? What's your favorite

3:09

food? Buffalo wings. >> Carol Howard: Oh, yeah.

3:12

>> Loren: Love a good, good buffalo wing.

3:15

Not too crazy spicy, but a little

3:17

kick is good. And like, the messier the

3:20

better. Like, to me, it's like more fun if I'm just come out looking like

3:23

a, you know, like a toddler.

3:28

>> Carol Howard: Yeah. You know, I'm a vegetarian, but

3:31

actually buffalo wild wings has

3:34

these cauliflower. They're delicious. They're so

3:39

good. I love them. >> Loren: And you can, if you're into the mess, you can probably get into

3:44

the mess there too, with. >> Carol Howard: Oh, yeah, completely. They put all the same

3:48

spices and rubs. >> Loren: Um, it's great.

3:51

>> Loren: All right, well, this is not a food podcast, so we'll

3:54

keep going there. >> Carol Howard: Okay. >> Loren: Share, if you would, about your faith journey, what

4:00

that's looked like in the past and what that looks like today.

4:04

>> Carol Howard: Well, let's see. I grew up

4:06

very, very conservative, um,

4:10

fundamentalist, southern Baptist, the

4:13

mean kind of Baptist. I guess there's all

4:15

kinds of. I was with

4:18

the mean kind, um,

4:23

and so, which

4:26

didn't work very well since I was also

4:29

called to ministry. So they didn't really believe

4:32

in women ministers. And so

4:35

I always felt really bad about that.

4:38

And I went to a fundamentalist Bible

4:40

college and, um, and went

4:45

to Moody Bible institute

4:48

in Chicago.

4:51

And, um, it was

4:53

difficult because, you know,

4:56

basically there are a lot of, like,

4:58

homeschool kids or kids who went to

5:01

international mission schools or whatever there.

5:04

>> Loren: Yeah. Ah. >> Carol Howard: And I was just kind of like a regular public school

5:07

kid, so I didn't

5:10

really know what it was going to be

5:13

like and to live with all those rules and

5:16

stuff. So I didn't, I didn't,

5:19

I didn't do very well there.

5:22

Um, but thankfully, while I was there, I did

5:25

meet somebody who encouraged me

5:27

to join a mainline denomination

5:30

and go to seminary. And,

5:33

um, so that was good.

5:36

That was good. Philip Yancey was my Sunday school

5:38

teacher. >> Loren: Wow. >> Loren: There. >> Carol Howard: So, yeah, yeah, so, so there

5:43

were, there were a lot of good things that happened, um,

5:46

while I was there. And, uh, so

5:49

now I'm, um, a Presbyterian.

5:52

>> Loren: Uh, I can't remember if I told.

5:55

>> Loren: You this or another. Moody

5:57

graduate. >> Carol Howard: Yeah. >> Loren: Um, growing up fundamental baptist

6:02

myself, like, moody, I always had, like, such an aura of,

6:05

like, people who went to Moody were like the true,

6:07

whole people we are. So I am

6:10

just know that I am still impressed by your

6:13

holiness spiritual practices that are meaningful for you. Something you

6:23

don't mind sharing. >> Carol Howard: Um, well, there are a lot,

6:28

probably journaling

6:31

is the most, writing, uh, is the most. I'm learning to breathe,

6:37

like, use my breath a lot

6:39

more, you know, in stressful situations and

6:42

things like that. So I wouldn't say that's

6:45

my favorite at this point, but it's

6:47

helpful. >> Loren: Mhm. >> Carol Howard: Um, but certainly journaling.

6:51

>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. >> Loren: Well, this is all. We're already off to

6:56

a good start, so I'm looking forward to our continued

6:59

conversation here. So I had Carolyn, uh,

7:02

brought her on the pod again to talk about, uh,

7:05

her book and also kind of the topic of clergy

7:07

health. So let's begin just kind of

7:10

talking about clergy trends. And I

7:13

know there's been some recent data, uh, released

7:16

by the Hartford Institute, um, about overall clergy

7:21

health. Certainly we're seeing a lot about clergy

7:24

shortages. >> Loren: Um, I was listening to, speaking of.

7:28

>> Loren: Them southern Baptist podcast, and I was.

7:31

>> Loren: Kind of shocked just about how the.

7:34

>> Loren: Clergy shortage is everywhere. Uh, even in

7:37

the southern Baptist tradition, there's a real

7:40

serious clergy shortage.

7:44

I guess, broadly speaking. What are your initial

7:46

thoughts, or what have you been thinking about related to these trends and how

7:49

they impact clergy?

7:53

>> Carol Howard: Well, I guess it's not a surprise that there's a

7:56

shortage. There's been a big

7:58

transition, I know, in

8:00

our, um, denomination

8:04

Presbyterian church, which I think

8:06

has some of the same sort of,

8:09

um, trends. They were asking for three years of

8:15

a master's, which makes sense.

8:18

And then, and then you had to go

8:21

to get a CPE,

8:23

which I know people love

8:26

that. And then you

8:28

really needed to do an

8:31

internship, and a year long internship

8:34

was best. And so you're

8:36

like, coming out of the place

8:39

with four years of

8:41

seminary debt. Um, and a lot of us were saying, you know,

8:47

we can't do this. We don't get paid

8:50

like you can't. And then we

8:53

have a bunch of ordination exams on top of

8:56

that. And so people would be

8:59

stalling to get a job for, you

9:02

know, even longer, um,

9:05

just to pass these ords. And,

9:08

you know, it's not like the bar exam.

9:11

We don't. We're not getting a big paycheck at the end of

9:13

it. And so really,

9:16

the amount of money that we

9:19

had to go into debt in

9:21

order to get a, ah, salary, that

9:24

wasn't usually, um,

9:28

it wasn't usually even up

9:31

to the teacher salaries. Um,

9:37

it's not sustainable. And then,

9:40

um. So then when you start talking to college

9:43

students who are really interested in the

9:46

ministry, you kind of have to say, well, be careful, and

9:51

even I'm going to be. There are seminaries who I did not

9:57

pay any tuition at all,

10:00

which is incredible. But you still have to

10:03

live, you still have to eat, and you still have to.

10:06

So, um, it's

10:09

just really expensive.

10:13

So you had that sort of going on. And at the

10:15

same time, there's a crisis

10:18

of status. When

10:21

people ask, um,

10:24

what you do, it's kind of embarrassing

10:27

because my daughter

10:30

doesn't usually tell people that I'm a minister

10:32

because, um. Uh,

10:35

she said, it's not because I'm ashamed of who you

10:38

are or what you do. She said,

10:41

what I'm worried about is what people think you

10:44

are after saying it.

10:46

And, um, with so many,

10:49

uh, scandals and so many horrible

10:52

things that have gone on, people

10:55

have this ideal that we are,

10:58

um, all money

11:00

grubbing, terrible

11:04

people. So there's

11:06

this kind of crisis in status that's going

11:09

along with this financial crisis.

11:12

Um, and then sort of

11:15

nationally, there

11:18

is, uh, attendance is going down, um,

11:24

and budgets are

11:27

harder to keep up with, and buildings are

11:30

getting older, and so we

11:32

have this kind, um, of trifecta

11:35

happening. And so we walk

11:38

into the church, and even though this has

11:41

been going on for 50 years, they're kind of blaming it

11:44

on the pastor who walks in yesterday.

11:47

It's like, well, hey, you've been,

11:50

uh. You've been putting off this maintenance for a

11:53

lot longer than, you know, since I've been

11:56

here, so. And I don't want to, like, I just

12:01

feel like I just piled on.

12:04

There is also tremendous,

12:07

wonderful things about being a minister, too, which

12:10

is why I'm still here. But I'm just answering

12:13

the question. >> Loren: Yeah, no, I am still

12:16

pro pastor, but I think the real

12:19

challenges. I'd agree with everything you said

12:22

there. I'm thinking, as someone who,

12:25

similarly to you, I think of

12:27

my eight semesters in seminary, I think I only actually

12:30

paid a dime, like three or five of

12:33

those seminaries, I can't remember. So I didn't really necessarily come out

12:36

with a lot of debt load, per se. But,

12:39

you know, I've thought about it otherwise in my more

12:42

cynical moments, that it's not

12:44

necessarily even the. Even the debt or lack

12:47

thereof. It's like, you know, four years of my life that I

12:50

might have gotten another degree or, you know,

12:53

advanced my career. Otherwise, not the. Not

12:56

to discount or diminish. Like, I

12:59

really appreciate the MDIV and what I learned there.

13:02

Um, but those are serious challenges.

13:05

And especially when you think about, you know, on top

13:08

of, like you said, the institutional

13:11

decline, um, the

13:13

challenges of, you know, of

13:16

collapse in many ways, right, of churches

13:19

and denominations and institutions.

13:22

Um, you know, I'm thinking about, as

13:25

I referenced already in

13:27

that Harford Institute study, there

13:30

was a surprising

13:33

amount of clergy who seem to be doing quite well. And if

13:36

I remember correctly, it was.

13:39

>> Loren: Something about established

13:42

clergy. >> Loren: I don't remember the exact numbers, but clergy who have been in the

13:45

game, so to speak, a long time or a while

13:48

soon to be happier or more content than

13:51

those who were early on in their

13:53

career. So do you have any

13:56

sense about what that might be about?

14:00

>> Carol Howard: Yeah, I mean, um, I

14:04

can guess. One thing is, you

14:07

know, if you bought your house

14:11

a while ago or if you're living in a manse, you

14:14

have the housing issue, at least here in. I'm in New

14:17

York City or outside of New York City,

14:20

so that the housing issue is a big one

14:23

around here. Um, so that has a

14:28

big determining, uh, factor. Um, if you're trying to

14:33

buy a house on a salary

14:36

right now, it's really difficult. Um,

14:44

and so I think that,

14:47

uh, um,

14:50

with the cost of housing going up so much

14:53

with also clergy

14:56

salaries staying stagnant

14:59

for, um, so long, uh,

15:03

it's just not feasible for clergy. And then,

15:09

um, so

15:12

that's just one aspect.

15:15

Um, there is a lot of ageism when it

15:18

comes to, uh, clergy.

15:21

Um, and that's difficult.

15:24

Uh, I think,

15:27

um, another thing that's happening is

15:30

there's this sense that, I mean, I serve a church that

15:36

has been open since

15:39

1680. >> Loren: Wow.

15:41

>> Carol Howard: Yeah. So, um,

15:44

long time. And our churches have

15:46

been surviving for a long, long time,

15:52

and yet oftentimes

15:55

we'll get, um, not we in particular,

15:58

but clergy. >> Loren: Hm. >> Carol Howard: We'll get this business person that

16:02

comes in and they're like, oh, you know,

16:05

I've been, you know, doing my business

16:08

for, you know, 20

16:11

years, so I know better. Or, you know, we'll start,

16:16

you know, we have just such a highly

16:19

capitalistic society that

16:22

we have this sense that, you know, the business people can

16:25

save us. And so I think that's kind of

16:28

frustrating. Um, so there's a lot

16:30

of things, I believe,

16:33

uh, that are hitting

16:35

particularly young clergy.

16:38

Um, you know,

16:42

many times, um,

16:46

uh, the age of our congregants

16:52

are getting older, and so,

16:55

um, they don't quite always understand the

16:58

challenges that young clergy are going through.

17:00

>> Loren: Right. >> Carol Howard: So, yeah, there's just a lot. There's a

17:05

lot that younger clergy have to deal

17:07

with, I think. And

17:10

the, um,

17:13

many times, younger clergy not

17:16

only have student loan debt from

17:19

seminary, but they had additional

17:22

debt from undergraduate,

17:25

um, older

17:27

clergy may not have. So it's a

17:30

completely, completely

17:33

different, um, financial

17:37

situation, and the

17:40

church hasn't dealt with

17:43

that yet. And our

17:46

denomination, the presbyterian

17:48

church, they just. This

17:51

week, um. >> Loren: Yeah, I saw this.

17:54

>> Carol Howard: Yeah, yeah, there's, you know, the

17:56

Internet's blowing up because, uh,

17:59

they, they've just, um,

18:02

said that, you know, clergy with

18:04

families are, they came out

18:07

with how much, um, they would need to be

18:10

paying an insurance. And it's like

18:13

65% of, you know,

18:16

our salaries are going to insurance. So I mean, clearly we just

18:22

have not kept up, you know, and,

18:25

um, so

18:28

it's a real tragedy.

18:30

>> Loren: Yeah. I laugh about

18:33

the age thing because, uh, I guess

18:36

I can say my, well, you know, I feel like in

18:39

mainline world I was like, too young, too young, too young, too

18:42

young. And then now that I'm 40,

18:45

41, like in any other

18:47

context, like I'm over the hill.

18:51

>> Carol Howard: Yeah. Yeah. It's really fascinating, isn't

18:54

it? >> Loren: Yeah. Um, let's,

18:57

gosh, I feel like we.

18:59

>> Loren: Could keep rolling on this like negative train for the

19:02

whole episode and I don't want this

19:05

to. There are good things, there are good things, but I mean, the

19:08

challenges are for real. I mean, uh, yeah, I saw

19:11

a post from a, uh, pastor I

19:14

know in Chicago, like Chicago

19:16

Chicago. And he was saying that like some churches are thinking

19:19

about turning their Sunday school classrooms

19:22

into like apartments for their clergy, essentially,

19:25

which, you know, makes sense because I don't know how

19:28

in the world, like, especially if you're talking

19:31

like Chicago, New York, I mean,

19:34

these big. >> Loren: Cities, I mean, I mean, I live.

19:37

>> Loren: In Denver Metro and I

19:40

interviewed recently for church and I don't want to say how

19:43

much they're offering, but it's like this is not anywhere near a

19:46

living wage of what you should be

19:49

offering. >> Carol Howard: Uh, right, right.

19:51

>> Loren: So the challenges are real. >> Loren: Um, and I think we'd both agree.

19:55

>> Loren: Right. >> Loren: I, uh, was just talking to

19:59

a. >> Loren: Denominational leader in my context

20:03

yesterday and he just kind of emphasized

20:06

like since. >> Loren: COVID these trends have really kind of just

20:09

been exacerbated. >> Carol Howard: Right, absolutely. And,

20:14

um, not only have

20:20

the budget challenges and also

20:23

the attendance challenges,

20:26

um, but also the

20:29

housing and inflation and everything's gone

20:32

up. And uh, so,

20:35

you know, when you listen to economists, they'll say,

20:38

oh, well, the salaries have gone up

20:41

right along with inflation. And I'm like, oh, not, not

20:44

for us, but I really

20:46

believe, and I don't know,

20:49

people deny this all the time,

20:52

but we are sitting on like

20:55

mountains of money. >> Loren: Mhm.

20:58

>> Carol Howard: Like just mountains of money,

21:01

all these pockets of money. And you

21:04

know, people will say, oh, well, those are designated for certain

21:07

things and, yeah, okay, but

21:10

somebody needs to start putting money

21:12

into clergy

21:15

and clergy housing and

21:18

subsistence and, you know,

21:21

like, because we're

21:24

not going to have churches if we don't have

21:27

pastors. Well, we're just not. And I know

21:30

everybody's like, oh, we need to rethink this, right, blah,

21:33

blah, blah. But it's, we're

21:35

just, we can't starve our clergy and

21:38

expect to have churches. >> Loren: I think.

21:40

>> Carol Howard: And I know, you know, everybody wants to deny.

21:43

That's the truth. But it's the truth.

21:48

>> Loren: I think the demographic or the. Not the

21:50

demographic, um, I think the

21:54

dynamic that I worry about is

21:56

essentially what I feel like you probably seen

21:59

in some context where just, like, because the church

22:02

is paying so little or offering basically next to

22:05

nothing, clergy kind of, like, undercut the

22:08

market. >> Carol Howard: Uh-huh. >> Loren: Someone is desperate to have a job or wants to be

22:14

pastor, so they'll go work for next to

22:16

nothing. Or the church will

22:19

essentially just hire someone, elevate someone out of their

22:22

congregation, which I don't want to discount that,

22:25

because obviously

22:27

folks can have ministry skills and

22:30

giftings, whether or not they have an M div, for

22:33

instance. >> Carol Howard: Right, right. >> Loren: Um, but it also does kind of like, using an

22:37

economic term, again, does kind of, like, depress the market.

22:41

So it can be a real challenge there.

22:44

>> Carol Howard: Yeah, yeah, it can. Um, and,

22:47

you know, I think that that goes back to.

22:50

I mean, in our

22:52

system, this really weird thing was happening

22:55

where we were expecting more and

22:58

more internships

23:01

and CPE credits, and

23:05

it was costing more and more, but at the

23:08

same time, we were growing these kind

23:11

of robust, um, lay

23:13

pastor, uh, uh, programs

23:16

where. And it's like,

23:19

well, why would anybody become

23:22

a trained, um, um,

23:24

minister if you could just be a lay pastor

23:27

and not have to go through the same sort of hoops

23:30

and in the same sort of, which.

23:33

Which is fine if we. If

23:36

that's a strategic right plan.

23:39

But it seemed like we had these two

23:42

tracks going, and we weren't talking to each other.

23:45

And so now. Now our seminaries

23:48

are emptying out, and,

23:51

um, we just don't always

23:54

have, and I'm 100%

23:56

with you, like, I train,

23:59

um, lay preachers and

24:02

incredibly thankful for them. So I

24:04

don't want to diminish that. But

24:07

do we want an educated clergy?

24:10

And if we do, we need to start putting

24:13

our money and our resources and,

24:17

um. And our power behind that.

24:21

>> Loren: Yeah. Because we're really advocating for those who

24:24

are jumping on, Carol and I. We're really advocating for

24:27

a both and situation. We want to advocate for, or we want to empower

24:35

laity and ministry and that sort of thing. But we also are trying

24:38

to advocate for, like, hey, let's. You know, let's.

24:41

If we're going to say, like, uh, ordained

24:43

clergy, um, matter. Like,

24:47

let's put our money where our mouth is too. Right?

24:50

>> Carol Howard: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Well,

24:52

yeah. >> Loren: One of the things that I think is important in this conversation,

24:57

um, is the idea of controlling what we can control. Right. And that's

25:02

where I really appreciate family systems

25:05

theory in, at least as I understand it.

25:08

One of the most profound principles, to me at

25:11

least, is like, thinking about what can I control?

25:15

Um, so you obviously a, uh, good familiarity

25:18

with that concept, and we're going to talk about here in

25:21

a moment your book, which features a lot of

25:23

family systems theory, but talk a little bit about

25:26

your experience with family systems theory and how you think it

25:29

can be a help to pastors and clergy,

25:32

you know, especially as we think about all these

25:34

challenges and dynamics we've been talking

25:37

about. >> Carol Howard: Yeah. Well, I definitely

25:41

am indebted to, uh, my

25:44

friend James Minimore, who co

25:46

authored the book. And he's a

25:49

therapist. And it was interesting

25:52

because I was writing this book,

25:55

um, way before I came to my present

25:58

church, and he was writing a book

26:01

as well. And, um, James is

26:04

a therapist with the Good Samaritan

26:07

center, or the Samaritan

26:10

center, and he works

26:12

outside of our church. And so

26:16

we were reflecting on the books

26:19

that we were writing, and we decided to,

26:21

uh, merge them. And so I learned a

26:24

tremendous amount from James.

26:27

And a lot of

26:30

what we went through with COVID really

26:33

reflects family system theories.

26:35

>> Loren: Yeah. >> Carol Howard: And, um, you know,

26:39

so if you think of, um,

26:42

uh, our churches not as

26:45

individuals, but as organizations, as, um, these

26:50

systems, you can start

26:52

to see some patterns that are

26:55

taking place. So there

26:58

are many things, um, like,

27:01

uh, homeostasis, like,

27:04

uh, uh, these systems,

27:07

these organizations, they really like to

27:10

maintain homeostasis.

27:13

And we talk about it like a rubber

27:16

band on the wrist. The harder you pull on that rubber

27:21

band when it snaps back, the harder it

27:24

hurts. And the more

27:27

it wants to come back to

27:29

homeostasis, wants

27:32

to go back to that shape and form

27:35

it used to be. So

27:38

what we had. And also when we

27:41

have these systems, um,

27:43

fear really does

27:46

an anxiety, does something, um,

27:51

uh, it really stresses out this

27:53

system. So oftentimes when you have

27:56

fear and anxiety, you have a lot

27:59

of polarization. You have people

28:02

pitting against people. You

28:04

have, um, uh, people cutting

28:07

people off, people getting really angry

28:10

and tense, people fleeing.

28:13

You have the whole fight, flight or flee

28:16

sort of situation that happens.

28:19

And so here we

28:21

were on this trajectory that, again, has been

28:27

happening, um, way before

28:29

you became a minister, and even I became a

28:32

minister, and that is,

28:35

you know, this decline.

28:38

And, um, it had been going on for a while, and then

28:44

COVID hits, and it

28:47

accelerated church closings. It

28:50

accelerated the fear,

28:53

really, I think, for a lot of

28:56

congregations. And

28:58

so when that

29:01

anxiety sort of spiked,

29:04

um, then all of these things began to happen.

29:07

People began to, um, uh,

29:12

resist any sort of change.

29:15

They began to polarize.

29:18

They began to fight with one another.

29:22

Um, and so

29:24

it's been a very difficult, even

29:29

traumatic time, I think, for a lot of

29:31

clergy. And, um,

29:34

everybody kind of assumed that as

29:37

soon as we opened up, it would be fine.

29:40

Everything would be. >> Loren: I did go back to.

29:43

>> Carol Howard: Yeah, I did, too. Everything will be back to

29:46

normal. And then you're like, oh, this is not

29:48

normal. So. So there is this

29:54

just extreme challenges that we're going

29:57

through, and there's not

30:00

a lot of support because then, um, at the same time,

30:03

we also have, um, you

30:06

know, all, uh, of the. >> Loren: Other things that we talked about.

30:10

>> Loren: Yeah. >> Carol Howard: Ah, yeah. So, uh, you

30:13

know, a lot of clergy are

30:15

suffering right now, and, um.

30:19

And, you know, the good thing about

30:22

it is, well, there's

30:24

no. I don't want to, like, slap a

30:27

happy face on top of it. But

30:31

the reason why we called our

30:34

book wounded pastors is

30:36

because of that kind of

30:39

jungian theory that Henry Nowan,

30:42

Henri Nouwen picked, um, up so

30:45

beautifully. Um, that

30:47

idea of wounded healers, you

30:50

know, and, you

30:53

know, we're in this time

30:55

of post trauma, and, um, we

31:01

can have some growth out of it. We will

31:04

have some growth. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Carol Howard: It's just going to take a while.

31:07

>> Loren: Yeah. Well, I think that's an

31:09

important. I think that's such an important

31:12

point to speak about,

31:14

and I want to talk more about that.

31:17

But there's also some quotes here from the

31:19

book I want to highlight just

31:22

because they resonated with me.

31:26

So here, this one I shouldn't say highlight. This one

31:29

I hated, but I know it's true.

31:32

Church members will take as much of your energy, time

31:35

and work as they can. This is not because they're evil, but because

31:38

they're human. And boy, oh, boy,

31:41

does that slap a lot of us pastors

31:44

in the face. Right? Uh, as

31:47

much as I understand that and appreciate that quote, I

31:50

also don't like it. So

31:53

talk through that with me and for our listeners.

31:57

>> Carol Howard: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, most

32:00

of us who are clergy,

32:03

or a lot of us as clergy, you know,

32:06

you do have undeniably, like, some

32:09

narcissistic, you know, clergy out

32:12

there, and, um, but I

32:15

think a lot of clergy like,

32:18

we. We want to be servants. We want to.

32:21

We want to serve the church, we want to give

32:24

to the church, we want to love the church.

32:27

You know, we want to take up our cross daily. You know,

32:30

uh, we have all these, like, images m of.

32:33

Of servanthood.

32:36

Um, but one of the

32:39

issues that can come up

32:42

with that is we

32:45

end up, um, really hurting

32:48

ourselves and hurting our families

32:50

and all of that. And

32:54

we, again, live in a hyper capitalist

32:57

society where people

33:00

are trying to get as much productivity

33:02

for as little amount of money as possible.

33:06

And people live in that world

33:08

every single day. And so when they

33:11

come to us, they want us to have as much

33:14

productivity with as little amount,

33:17

as money as possible. And,

33:20

um, you know, and again, it's

33:23

not evil. It's just

33:26

the way that our world is working

33:29

right now. And so m

33:32

people will end

33:35

up, um, trying,

33:38

whether they're trying to do the best for the church or

33:41

they're trying to, or they're just in that

33:44

mindset kind of constantly.

33:47

Um, uh, it can happen.

33:50

It can happen. Maybe I shouldn't have said

33:53

it will happen because there

33:56

are some great churches out there. >> Loren: Yeah, that's immortal.

33:59

>> Carol Howard: Uh, but it can. >> Loren: Yeah, it definitely can. So this other quote

34:03

here, um, you write,

34:06

what happens if we don't forgive? And I think,

34:09

man, I've been there. I'll just confess, like, I've

34:12

been there. >> Loren: Holding a grudge against,

34:16

you know, a congregant, a parishioner.

34:19

>> Loren: Uh, you're right. You know, what happens if we don't forgive? Unfortunately, not

34:22

forgiving tethers us to bitterness and to

34:25

the people who have hurt us.

34:28

In extreme cases, a person might not just be a wounded

34:31

pastor, but a wound collecting pastor.

34:34

Such people never seek closure. Instead, they

34:36

persist in, uh, seeing malice

34:39

and innocent acts, looking for ways to be offended

34:42

and becoming ever more sensitive to

34:45

slights. Uh, I think that's such a powerful

34:48

quote. And I'll bookend this here with

34:51

something I read from another, not your same

34:53

Presbyterian, but Presbyterian, uh, who used to

34:56

be in your neck of the woods. >> Loren: The late Tim Keller,

35:00

who certainly I. >> Loren: Would hold some different theological principles then, but he said something that

35:04

really resonated with me about the importance of forgiveness. Because

35:07

if we don't forgive, then our actions are

35:10

inspired by not, um,

35:13

for reconciliation, but retribution. Um, so talk about forgiveness and how

35:20

that can impact and why that's so

35:23

important. >> Carol Howard: Yeah, I mean, forgiveness is hard. It's

35:28

just a hard and tricky subject. I

35:31

just read, ah, kaia

35:33

oaks, um, just wrote, ah,

35:36

a book. I think it's called sorry, not sorry, which is really

35:39

interesting. But, ah, one book

35:42

that really impacted me was Desmond

35:45

and Mephone Tutu's book.

35:48

Um, that's a father and daughter bishop. Ah,

35:51

Desmond Tutu, um, wrote,

35:54

ah, four fold path of forgiveness

35:57

called a book of forgiving.

36:00

And, um, so that's

36:03

just had this tremendous impact on my life.

36:06

And of course, they're talking about the truth and

36:09

reconciliation in South

36:12

Africa and these really

36:15

extreme, um,

36:18

acts of heroic forgiveness.

36:20

And they kind of explain

36:23

over and over again that forgiveness isn't

36:26

for the other person, it's for

36:29

you. Um, and then I was reading about wound

36:35

collecting, which I thought was just sort of this

36:37

fascinating idea. And it was a

36:40

psychologist who was looking

36:43

at, um, he was kind of looking

36:46

at terrorists. >> Loren: Mhm. >> Carol Howard: And then he began to look at like,

36:51

incels and look at,

36:54

um, different people. And he came up with this thing

36:59

of like, wound collectors. And

37:02

we all know these people, not the

37:04

terrorists, but these people

37:07

who cannot let it go

37:10

no matter what. And so they begin

37:13

to hold grudges and more and more

37:16

grudges, and then they

37:19

begin to see things and

37:21

people who don't

37:24

mean to be even doing

37:27

anything wrong. So it's just a trap we can get

37:32

into and become miserable. Um,

37:35

so forgiveness is tricky. And

37:38

we try to suss

37:41

out the different sorts of forgiveness,

37:43

whether it's legal forgiveness or

37:46

for forgiveness, or whether it's,

37:49

um, theological forgiveness or, you know.

37:52

And so there's different types of

37:54

forgiveness. Um, but certainly

38:00

for me personally, uh,

38:03

it's still something that's

38:06

important to strive for.

38:09

>> Loren: Yeah. >> Loren: Yeah, that's good. So another

38:12

quote here. And again, I hate this quote, but I think

38:15

it's important you're right.

38:18

Or you and James. Right. Uh, as we continue the process

38:21

toward healing, we need to go back to our stories,

38:24

reclaim our character in them, rewrite them,

38:26

and find meaning through them.

38:29

So I'll speak for myself here, Carol,

38:33

as, uh, someone who, like you, grew

38:36

up in a very concerted context, for me, at

38:39

least. Ah, I really. I wouldn't

38:42

say, like, accepted, but I really found a way to, like, make

38:44

peace with, like, my

38:47

past. >> Loren: Um, not in a way that, like.

38:52

>> Loren: I necessarily appreciate

38:54

everything that I was taught, but I have

38:57

this weird appreciation. I

39:00

don't know if that even makes sense. >> Carol Howard: Yeah.

39:03

>> Loren: For like, you

39:06

know, like, I have a. >> Loren: Like, I have a King James bible that I just

39:10

hold onto dearly,

39:13

uh, because it's so familiar

39:16

and, um, meaningful for me. Yet

39:19

also there's

39:21

this weird. There's certainly this weird dissonance

39:24

there. Uh, but talk more about that and

39:27

what you mean by that quote.

39:31

>> Carol Howard: Yeah, I mean, I had to do

39:34

a similar thing. It was really interesting. Right after

39:37

I left moody, I know

39:39

that I definitely kind of

39:42

rejected everything, and I wouldn't even

39:45

tell people where I went to school.

39:48

Um, I would try to hide it and

39:51

that sort of thing. And then at

39:54

some point, like, you have

39:57

to sort of come back to it and embrace

40:00

it and realize it's part of you,

40:07

even though it doesn't, um,

40:11

it's still part of you. Right.

40:13

And, um, even if you reject it, even if you don't

40:16

agree with it, it's a

40:19

peace, and it's gonna miss.

40:22

It's gonna be missing unless

40:25

you embrace, uh, it again. But you can't

40:28

embrace it in the same way. Right. So you have

40:31

to begin to think about retelling, um,

40:34

that story. And

40:37

the stories are incredibly powerful in

40:42

how we tell our stories, especially

40:44

stories when we've been wounded.

40:47

Um. Uh, the

40:50

way in which we tell our stories

40:53

will inform, um, our

40:56

healing. Viktor, uh, frankl,

41:01

he wrote man's search for meaning, and, um,

41:05

uh, just such a

41:08

powerful book. I go back to it. I think I feel

41:11

like I read it every year, um, and learn something

41:14

different from it every time. He's

41:16

just, uh, amazing. But he talks about this,

41:21

rewriting your story and

41:24

finding meaning. >> Loren: Um.

41:31

>> Carol Howard: And doing that. Um, sometimes you can even do

41:37

it. I was able to

41:40

write books about things, and

41:43

you sort of reflect back.

41:47

>> Loren: Um. >> Carol Howard: I'm kind of hearing in my ear

41:52

there are so many, uh,

41:54

womanist theologians

41:57

who would say, um, I think, who would fight back on

42:02

that. The idea of

42:06

trying to redeem suffering.

42:09

Um, and I want to

42:12

honor that. Uh, but

42:16

I also, uh, just want

42:19

to talk from my personal experience,

42:22

the sense of when

42:25

I've gone through difficult issues, difficult problems, if

42:30

I've been able to retell that story in

42:33

a way in which I'm not a victim,

42:36

but I'm a survivor. >> Loren: Yeah.

42:38

>> Carol Howard: And. And then

42:41

a, uh, wounded healer, you know?

42:44

Um, it can be extremely

42:47

powerful, not only for, you know,

42:49

the pastor, but for churches.

42:53

>> Loren: Right. >> Carol Howard: And their identity.

42:55

>> Loren: Right. Well, this is a great conversation,

42:58

and for sake of time, let's leave it there.

43:01

The name of the book is wounded pastors.

43:04

Hopefully, uh, I have the right title here. Uh, was it

43:07

navigating burnout, finding healing, and discerning

43:10

the future of your ministry? Is that right?

43:13

Okay, good. I was, like. >> Carol Howard: I had to look because I forget it, too.

43:16

>> Loren: Hopefully, the subtitle hasn't changed since I've seen it.

43:20

>> Carol Howard: Nope. Nope. >> Loren: Let's take a quick break, and we'll come back with some closing

43:23

questions. All right, we're back with Reverend Carol Howard. So thanks

43:30

so much for this conversation. Um,

43:33

again, I want to recommend her book, wounded

43:35

pastors with James Fenimore.

43:38

So check that out. Uh, Carol, I always tell folks, you can take these

43:41

questions seriously or not if you'd like

43:44

to, but, uh, if you're a pope for a day,

43:47

what might that day look like for you?

43:50

>> Carol Howard: Oh, wow. That would be a

43:53

good day. Definitely, like,

43:58

liquidate the assets, give the assets

44:01

to victims of pedophilia,

44:04

put those pedophiles in prison.

44:07

I would definitely ordain

44:10

women and, uh, allow

44:13

for LGBTQ, um, marriage. Be a good day.

44:19

I'm sure I could get it all done. >> Loren: Speaking of, uh, um,

44:24

assets, you think? I feel like the catholic church would have enough assets

44:27

where they could, uh, uh, fund clergy for

44:30

quite a long time, right? >> Carol Howard: Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think so,

44:34

yeah. >> Loren: Um, um, a theologian or historical christian figure

44:39

you'd want to meet or bring back to life.

44:43

>> Carol Howard: Well, you know, I did this, uh, uh,

44:46

I would. I would have said Meister

44:48

Eckhart just because he's been the person who

44:54

has really, um, been the most

44:59

influential on my

45:02

ministry, I think. Um, but

45:05

julian of norwich, too. I just did

45:08

a little tiny devotional on

45:11

julian of Norwich. And I wrote it during,

45:14

um, uh, I wrote it during

45:17

COVID-19 and it

45:19

was so helpful because

45:22

she also wrote during, um,

45:25

the black plague or went through.

45:29

Had her visions soon after.

45:32

Anyways, super, super helpful. So I

45:35

have probably my star card I'll stick with.

45:37

>> Loren: Well, those are two good options. >> Loren: Yeah.

45:40

>> Loren: What do you think history will remember from our current time

45:43

and place? >> Carol Howard: Oh, ah, that's a good question.

45:47

I mean, I'm hoping that,

45:52

um, I talked about

45:54

post traumatic growth,

45:58

and I really believe that

46:00

we are going to go through a spiritual

46:03

deepening where we begin to

46:06

understand God in a different way,

46:09

where we begin to connect

46:12

with creation in a different way. I mean,

46:15

we definitely need,

46:18

um, to begin to think about our

46:20

environment, um, and the way in which we

46:26

care for, uh,

46:29

creation. So I see a lot

46:32

of really interesting things coming up, uh, about that.

46:38

Um, uh, you know, I just

46:41

believe that this is going

46:44

to be a hard, hard, very fruitful

46:46

time, um, where we begin to

46:52

do a lot of correcting of,

46:57

um, uh, what we've kind of veered

47:02

off on the last.

47:06

I don't know how many years, um, you know.

47:10

>> Loren: Yeah. >> Carol Howard: When church is all about, like,

47:14

I don't know, worship wars.

47:19

>> Loren: Yeah. >> Carol Howard: Ah, whatever. We've been talking about, you

47:22

know, making sure the gays

47:24

are in their place.

47:27

Yeah. I mean, you know, that's

47:29

always. This is the main thing we've been talking about for so

47:32

many years. So we just need to

47:35

do a lot of correcting, and I think

47:38

we're going to. I think

47:41

we're there, or, uh, we're in that

47:44

crisis moment. >> Loren: This leads into my final question.

47:50

What do you hope then? You've kind of

47:53

spoken to. Maybe not. What do you hope?

47:56

What do you hope to see? What? Answer that

47:59

question. How you'd like to, I suppose. >> Carol Howard: Yeah. Well, even now, if

48:04

you think about all the congregations in

48:07

the world, um, you know, the

48:10

church at large is

48:13

probably one of the largest

48:15

landowners, uh,

48:18

globally. And, um, if

48:23

we begin to take that seriously and we begin

48:26

to care, um, for our,

48:32

uh, world, and then if we

48:35

begin to help our congregants

48:38

do that, uh, we could have

48:41

this huge impact, um,

48:44

if we can teach our children how

48:47

to connect with nature,

48:49

and, um, they're going through this tremendous nature

48:55

deficit disorder, uh, right

48:57

now. Um, so there

49:00

are just so many things that we can

49:03

do, uh, particularly, I think,

49:06

with the environment and

49:08

connecting, um,

49:11

with the environment in a new way. I think that's

49:15

our big crisis that's coming up,

49:17

and, um, it may give us

49:20

an opportunity to think outside of

49:23

ourselves a little bit. Be good.

49:25

>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. >> Loren: Well, I suppose that was not my last question. My last question is,

49:30

actually, where can people find out about you and connect

49:32

with you? >> Loren: Get the book, all that?

49:36

>> Carol Howard: M. Yeah, I think,

49:38

uh, my.

49:41

Oh, there's a wounded pastor's, um,

49:44

website, so you can look

49:47

for that, I guess. Um, I have a

49:50

website, but it's sort of in transition right now.

49:54

Um, but

49:57

I'm on Facebook and Twitter and

49:59

Instagram, Carol

50:01

Howard, so if you

50:04

ever want to talk to me. We

50:07

connected through Facebook, right? >> Loren: Yeah, I believe so.

50:11

>> Carol Howard: Yeah. Yeah, I'm easy to

50:14

contact. >> Loren: Well, I really appreciate the conversation. Really

50:18

appreciate the book. Hope it's helpful to

50:20

other pastors like myself. So always leave folks with

50:23

the word of peace. So may God's peace be with

50:26

you. >> Carol Howard: Thank you. Also with you.

50:29

>> Loren: Amen. Um. >> Paul: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast.

50:35

To learn more about Loren or the podcast,

50:37

visit future dash christian.com.

50:40

One more thing before you go. Do us a favor

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