0:05

Welcome to Future Hindsight, a podcast that

0:07

takes big ideas about civic life and

0:09

democracy and turns them into action items

0:12

for you and me. I'm me, a

0:14

lot more. It's

0:22

Twenty Twenty Four and the future

0:24

of America is in your hands.

0:26

Democracy is not a spectator sport,

0:29

so we're here to bring you

0:31

an independent perspective about the election

0:33

this year and empower you to

0:36

change the status quo. We've had

0:38

a few conversations about far right

0:40

extremism in the United States, the

0:42

mainstreaming of their ideology, and the

0:45

threat it poses to the very

0:47

existence of the Us. and Democracy.

0:49

Over all today we're having. A

0:52

conversation with a veteran who's done

0:54

a deep dive on the veterans

0:56

who have radicalised and become the

0:58

backbone of violent extremist groups like

1:01

The Proud Boys, Three Percenters, and

1:03

The Oath Keepers. Our guest is

1:05

Can Harbor. He's a former Us

1:07

Navy pilot, the executive producer of

1:10

the documentary against All Enemies and

1:12

host of the Burn The Boats

1:14

podcast Welcome Can and thank you

1:16

for joining us! First new

1:18

thank you for having me. We.

1:22

Are interested in your civic engagement

1:24

journey. We are so big on

1:26

civic engagement and getting involved. You

1:28

have led a life of service

1:30

for very long time now, notably

1:32

as a pilot and combat recon

1:34

commander in the Navy. but since

1:36

then as an advocate for veterans

1:38

and even running for Congress and

1:40

twenty eighteen you have such a

1:43

rich lived experience and do your

1:45

civic engagement continues to deepen. What?

1:47

Prompted you to stay in and

1:49

become more and more engaged. While.

1:52

It was kind of accidental. I

1:55

didn't anticipate this path after leaving

1:57

the Navy. I had every and.

2:00

Than. Leaving the

2:02

the veterans life and the military

2:04

life kind of to the side

2:06

and I got into law school

2:08

and my wife and I were

2:10

were starting a family but it

2:12

was the height of the so

2:14

called Global War on Terror and

2:16

something happens when you leave the

2:19

military, especially in the middle of

2:21

a conflict like that. you think

2:23

about all those who are still

2:25

carry the burden and that we'd

2:27

very heavily on me and I

2:29

remember. One. Moment

2:31

in particular at a a coffee

2:34

house literally across the corner from

2:36

Yale Law School for I was

2:38

a first year and a couple

2:40

of army trucks rumbled pass probably

2:43

from the Armory north of New

2:45

Haven and a said next to

2:47

me sipping on as latte joked

2:50

what is there a war on

2:52

and this was a Swiss Two

2:54

thousand and five There were two

2:57

wars on and something and me

2:59

snapped and completely. Unreasonably unfairly, I

3:01

stood up, I knocked my drink over

3:04

and I was gonna let this kid

3:06

have a piece of my mind and

3:08

I realize it's not his fault at

3:11

all. Like we are a society completely

3:13

disconnected from the burdens being carried by

3:15

those fighting in our name. Now I

3:17

resolved to do something about it and

3:20

that kind of began my journey of

3:22

veterans advocacy and leading several veterans nonprofits.

3:25

Wow. Well don't work that you

3:27

do is really important for veterans.

3:30

And as I mentioned, You are

3:32

the executive producer as his

3:34

new. Documentary Against All Enemies

3:36

which I was fourteen to see

3:38

a little preview and I'm really

3:40

want to talk about some of

3:42

the disconnect that are happening there

3:44

and the way that many veterans

3:46

feel disconnected from society overall when

3:48

they return from service. but the

3:50

for the get there I muthana

3:52

set the stage because he started

3:54

this podcast the argue that America

3:56

is at a crossroads and I

3:58

agree Of course how do you

4:00

think about what is this cross

4:03

roads and one of the stakes

4:05

in your mind in this condition

4:07

that were in and. What? Is

4:09

the price of failure? Wealth.

4:11

A Me. We're at a crossroads

4:13

on a number of ways. It

4:15

it's tough to. Think. About.

4:18

All. Of the crises we face,

4:20

I am focused in the immediate

4:22

term on the Twenty Twenty Four

4:25

Presidential election. Because I think it

4:27

is a a critical election, I

4:29

don't think I'm overstating. Had to

4:31

have to say that as a

4:34

future of our democracy is at

4:36

stake, we have one candidate who

4:38

was said he would terminate the

4:41

constitution if he could. He has

4:43

called insurrectionist martyrs and hostages and

4:45

I think. Regardless,

4:47

Of how we may differ with

4:49

others on on other matters of

4:52

policy, none of those arguments matter

4:54

if we don't have another election.

4:56

To. Me: The Crossroads. Really?

4:59

Boil down to ensuring the

5:01

preservation of our democracy and

5:03

the ability of Americans to

5:05

vote and choose their leaders

5:07

and repudiating the slide towards

5:09

authoritarianism. I know I'm on

5:11

a little bit of a

5:13

soapbox, but I really think

5:15

looking at the choices we

5:18

have one of them as

5:20

saying openly now that democracy

5:22

is is a weakness of

5:24

our country and and I

5:26

think we have to speak

5:28

and a. Loud voice as a

5:30

country to repudiate that. Totally

5:32

agree. So democracy itself

5:34

is at stake. I think everybody

5:36

understands that as a concept that

5:39

I think it's very abstract and

5:41

so when was thinking about this

5:43

presidential race as he thought he

5:45

said that disgrace ex president has

5:47

already said wanted team to constitution

5:49

become a dictator. for a day or

5:51

I guess forever as he. can and

5:53

he has already also said that

5:55

he'll reject the results of he

5:58

doesn't win and after genius I

6:00

think we all know what's in store if

6:02

indeed he doesn't. You

6:05

produced this documentary, a very powerful

6:07

documentary against all enemies, and it

6:09

takes a deep dive inside

6:12

the violent extremist movement in America

6:14

with members of the Proud Boys,

6:16

three percenters, and never seen before

6:19

footage of the Oath Keepers. What's

6:22

the role of these extremist forces

6:24

within our society today? Because I

6:26

think of them having

6:28

really become mainstream and having

6:31

altered our relationship to each other,

6:34

Americans to each other, and to our

6:36

civic fabric, and also in the context that they are

6:38

probably going to be the people who are going to

6:40

be activated if Trump does not

6:42

win. Well, that's just

6:44

it. Their role has shifted dramatically in

6:47

just the last few years,

6:49

where they were once seen as fringe

6:52

elements in our society, and

6:54

you would only wear the Proud Boys t-shirt

6:56

if you were going to a Proud Boys

6:58

meeting. We now have

7:00

a political dynamic where a

7:03

president of the United States

7:05

is name-checking them from a

7:07

debate stage. This

7:10

is an organization, in the case of the

7:12

Proud Boys, that's designated a terror organization by

7:15

our closest ally, Canada. You have

7:17

a president of the United

7:19

States, now a former president, telling

7:22

them to stand by in case he

7:24

loses the election. So

7:26

yes, they are looming,

7:28

not just in the American consciousness

7:31

for the menace that

7:33

they pose, but in our political reality

7:35

because of the force that they can

7:38

bring to bear. I

7:40

wouldn't be surprised at all if

7:42

an extremist, either a newly

7:44

elected President Trump or, say, a defeated

7:47

candidate Trump, activates these

7:49

groups to sow the kind of

7:51

chaos that he thrives on. Yeah,

7:54

I think that one of the things

7:57

that is really missing from our everyday

7:59

... conversations in this

8:01

race is just how dangerous they

8:04

are. And like you said,

8:06

you know, proud boys, t-shirts were

8:08

only worn in proud boys' events, but

8:10

now you can wear them everywhere and

8:13

people do and like they pack guns to go to

8:15

the grocery store and crazy things like this. But to

8:18

return to the veterans, you know, one

8:20

of the things that you mentioned is,

8:22

of course, that you have worked so

8:24

much with veterans. And the main theme

8:26

of the documentary is that

8:29

these groups are organized and led

8:31

by highly trained, highly motivated veterans.

8:33

In fact, they actively recruit among

8:35

veterans. And here we have

8:37

a group of disciplined fighters. Actually, I have

8:40

to say, I was struck that in the

8:42

documentary, someone said, finally, we get to fight

8:44

again. And I'm

8:46

wondering why people who are retired from

8:48

the military are so susceptible

8:51

to propaganda about

8:53

fighting against the very state that

8:55

they used to serve. What

8:58

do these extremist groups promise them?

9:01

What's the catch? Well,

9:03

I think it has to be said,

9:06

and I'll try to repeat this point

9:09

again and again, that we

9:11

are talking about a minority of veterans,

9:13

a small minority of veterans, the vast

9:15

majority, even combat veterans

9:18

come home and reintegrate successfully

9:21

into civilian life. And across many metrics,

9:23

they do better than their

9:25

civilian counterparts. But there is a

9:28

subset that is, as you

9:30

said, vulnerable to

9:32

this kind of propaganda and

9:34

recruitment and manipulation. And

9:37

the fundamental reason is that they

9:40

are looking for that sense of community

9:42

and camaraderie, which is so powerful when

9:44

you wear the uniform. But

9:47

our military, our Department of Defense, doesn't

9:49

do a great job at transitioning people

9:52

out of that military life and into civilian life.

9:54

They do a better job than they used to,

9:56

but as a case in point,

9:59

I had a through. day transition

10:01

period, after nine years in

10:04

the Navy, multiple deployments. I

10:06

had three days sitting in a classroom with

10:09

a bunch of other people who had

10:11

very different backgrounds in the military that

10:13

were supposed to equip me for everything

10:15

I needed for civilian life. Granted,

10:17

I had it pretty easy. I had a supportive

10:19

family. I had a career path in front of

10:22

me that I didn't end up taking. I didn't

10:24

become a lawyer. But think

10:26

about that 20-something year

10:28

old who was just thrown

10:31

into the proverbial wilderness of

10:33

civilian life after the very

10:35

regimented life of the military,

10:37

after the camaraderie that is

10:40

just so definitive of their

10:42

experience, that sense of purpose.

10:46

And many of them look for

10:48

something to replace that. Most

10:51

of them find it in positive ways through

10:53

groups like Team Rubicon, which

10:55

retrains military vets to do

10:57

disaster relief, or through faith

10:59

communities. But some, a

11:02

percentage, find it in groups like

11:04

the Oath Keepers or the Three Percenters.

11:07

And there, they can do incredible

11:09

damage. Yeah, community is really

11:11

a powerful thing. And I

11:14

can imagine a brotherhood of people with

11:16

whom you've served in combat with especially

11:18

must be extra strong. There

11:20

is no doubt that the people you

11:23

interviewed in the documentary have all experienced

11:25

trauma. I mean, I felt to me

11:27

that they really felt slightly lost. I

11:30

wonder if you can tell me more

11:32

about the radicalization process. Obviously, like you

11:34

said, this is a small percentage. It's

11:37

a minority of the veterans. But what

11:39

are the messages that they latch onto

11:41

that get them fired up and willing

11:43

to be violent? And I'm

11:46

also thinking here specifically about the fact

11:48

that Trump himself has called Americans who

11:50

have died in service of our country

11:52

losers and suckers. So

11:55

Is the messaging simply that they think it's

11:57

a battle between good and evil? Or

12:00

is there something specific like a key

12:02

word they you can think of That

12:04

tips people. Over, I don't know

12:07

that there's a keyword and and

12:09

I hope will come back to

12:11

former President Trump's complete lack of

12:13

respect for the military. But I

12:15

want to address your question about

12:18

what radicalized says these. That's and

12:20

there are different pathways. Everyone has

12:22

their own. Person. They have

12:24

her own way and to movements like

12:26

this. but I think. The.

12:29

Example we highlight in the

12:31

film because it's so instructive.

12:33

Any such a compelling character

12:35

is Chris Goldsmith who's become

12:37

a a good friend and

12:39

I think is cases instructive

12:41

because. His. Pass

12:44

began from a place of

12:46

deep anger and resentment and

12:48

the sense that he was

12:51

sent by his country to

12:53

fight. A war

12:55

that turned out to be based

12:57

on false promises. He lost good

12:59

friends, they he lost a piece

13:01

from self there I mean and

13:03

crysis case. He was completely on

13:05

equipped for what they were asking

13:07

him to do. and in a

13:09

rock. And all sanitize the

13:12

somewhat for the center of you.

13:14

but his job was to document

13:16

torture victims and mass graves and

13:18

every time he took a photo

13:21

of one of these. Faces.

13:24

Of the Tortured a rocky

13:26

that snapshot on. The

13:28

screen of a scammer was frozen

13:30

and as mine and he still

13:32

sees though snapshots in his sleep.

13:34

and upon coming back he resolved

13:36

that he was not gonna go

13:38

back to Iraq and the day

13:40

before his follow on deployment he

13:43

tried to take his own life

13:45

in a military cemetery surrounded by

13:47

his buddies. those who didn't come

13:49

home alive. And. Instead

13:51

of regaining consciousness, Surrounded.

13:54

By caregivers or a

13:56

therapist. He woke up

13:58

handcuffed, The A in

14:01

a military hospital under arrest. If.

14:04

That's not enough to make someone embittered,

14:06

an angry and looking for an outlet

14:08

for that rage. I don't know what

14:10

is and increases. Case is an army

14:13

that with real training and. Incredible.

14:15

Motivation and he very easily could

14:17

have directed at and almost did

14:20

towards the kind of extremism we're

14:22

trying to expose in the film.

14:24

Thank. Goodness Chris was able

14:26

to find another pass eventually

14:28

with the intervention of fellow

14:31

veterans who cared about. I'm

14:33

deeply and is now doing

14:35

and credible work exposing extremists

14:37

networks, but anger and resentment

14:39

is such a through line

14:41

in many of these stories

14:43

of radicalized veterans. Yeah.

14:46

That's an amazing. Story. While.

14:48

I selected. This is the time to

14:51

ask you where can people see this

14:53

documentary? I know it's about to come

14:55

out. Tell us where they can see

14:57

it and what data comes out. There,

15:00

it'll be available everywhere. Streaming on

15:02

March twenty ninth in the Us

15:04

is she lives in Europe. You

15:06

can see it already. It's being

15:09

broadcast across public Tv around Europe

15:11

and you know that's an incredible

15:13

story in and of itself. We

15:15

never anticipated an international audience for

15:18

this film. But. It.

15:20

Turns out that the rest

15:22

of the world, especially are

15:24

all allies, are deeply deeply

15:26

concerned about what is happening

15:28

in America. Right now, we

15:30

often forget in our cocoon

15:32

sometimes that the world does

15:34

look to us still as

15:37

a beacon of democracy, and

15:39

the failure of American democracy

15:41

will have reverberations around the

15:43

world, and our friends overseas

15:45

cared deeply about that prospect.

15:48

Yes, Well, in the context

15:50

of. Ongoing. Conflicts

15:53

around the world. In

15:55

Gaza and in Ukraine of

15:57

course. Also said Don Congo.

16:00

The. Conflict everywhere. And you know one

16:02

of the things that you mentioned as

16:04

that as a society we are disconnected

16:07

from that people actually serve now of

16:09

course when I boots on the ground

16:11

and any of these areas right now,

16:13

but we are. Striking.

16:16

Boats in Yemen and other. Targets. They're

16:18

We do need to remind ourselves that

16:20

we do have boots on the ground

16:22

all over the world. We had three

16:25

Americans died from Jordan and. I.

16:27

Think the reason we forget

16:29

that is their services. so

16:31

quiet and processional and vast

16:34

majority of their time. They're

16:36

not looking for clout on

16:38

Instagram or they're not broadcasting

16:41

their service to the world's.

16:43

like so many. Others.

16:45

Feel compelled to do it so.

16:47

A quiet professionalism that defines our

16:49

military and we have people. Everywhere

16:52

because it remains a dangerous world and

16:54

the death of those three service members

16:56

and Jordan is proof of that. So

16:59

I would have to be issue with

17:01

the the idea that we don't have

17:03

boots on the ground, were being careful

17:05

not to. Come into

17:07

direct confrontation with Russia for

17:09

example, but we have people

17:11

risking their lives every day

17:13

all around the world. Yes,

17:16

Yes, thank you for that. Correction, It's true we do

17:18

have boots on the ground because we have bases. Everywhere.

17:20

And we have people stationed everywhere

17:22

and they do engage if they

17:24

need to and do die. But

17:26

what I mean is that we're

17:29

not an active combat officially. Were.

17:35

Taking a short break. To. Hear about a

17:37

so called Kennedy Dynasty from Evergreen Podcasts

17:39

and Will the that was Can and

17:41

a Moment. I'm

17:45

else posted The Kennedy. Just

17:48

accept. With a microphone. A long

17:50

term fascination of. join

17:52

to an incredible test experts friends

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and to take you on a

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flight relaxed stay informed draft horses

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itself, you'll see that there is so much

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more to Kennedy than just JFK or

18:09

conspiracy theories. Join me for

18:11

the Kennedy Dynasty podcast. And

18:15

now let's return to my conversation with

18:18

Ken Harbaugh. Speaking

18:23

of the professionalism of service members, one

18:25

of the things that was mentioned in

18:27

the documentary, and I was like, yeah,

18:29

that's exactly right, was that

18:32

veteran status gives cover and

18:34

legitimacy to extremist messaging. Because

18:36

people respect the military so much, if there's

18:39

a veteran who says something really crazy and

18:41

extreme, it makes it easier

18:43

to be taken up by the general

18:45

population and be believed and followed. And

18:47

I'm thinking here of rallies with people

18:49

like Michael Flynn. How

18:51

does this movement become more popular widely

18:54

across the population in your mind? Well,

18:57

in the military, there's this

18:59

term force multiplier. And

19:02

when you look at an organization like

19:04

the Oath Keepers or the Proud Boys

19:06

or the Three Percenters, there

19:09

is a reason why they try

19:11

so hard to bring veterans into

19:14

their ranks. Even for those

19:16

chapters that don't have a majority of their

19:19

membership as veterans, veterans

19:22

often are the core of those

19:24

organizations. And

19:26

it's because they serve as force multipliers.

19:28

They don't just bring the

19:31

experience or the training they may have

19:33

gained in the military. They bring a

19:35

certain cache. Veterans are still

19:37

one of the only groups in

19:39

America that enjoys broad

19:42

public support. That

19:44

has declined for many other

19:47

groups and institutions across American

19:49

society. Veterans and

19:51

those who serve have still maintained

19:53

that broad public support. And these groups use

19:55

that. They use the cache of veterans to

19:57

bolster their message, to bring them into their

19:59

ranks. bring others in. And

20:02

it's the same reason, you know, actually Chris

20:04

Goldsmith pointed this out when a recent study

20:07

by the RAND Corporation came out. The

20:10

same reason that Fortune

20:12

500 companies and leading nonprofits

20:14

recruit veterans is

20:17

the same reason that these

20:19

extremist groups do, because when

20:22

they focus on a goal, they are

20:24

much more likely to achieve it than

20:26

others. They have that leadership ability. They

20:28

have that ability to work in teams,

20:31

and they have the respect of the

20:33

American people. And that use the

20:36

wrong way can be a very dangerous thing. Mm-hmm.

20:40

Yeah. Well, speaking of dangerous, one

20:42

thing also that a lot of people

20:44

don't realize is that there are ongoing

20:46

skirmishes in many locations in the United

20:49

States on weekends. We had

20:51

Jeff Charlotte on who wrote this

20:53

beautiful book, The Undertow, and

20:55

he went across the country and

20:57

saw so many of these. And

21:01

there's an idea that January

21:03

6 is a one-off or that maybe 2020

21:05

is just the time that is

21:07

behind us, but actually it continues.

21:10

So why is it so harmful

21:12

to look at these clashes as

21:14

a one-time thing instead of a sign of

21:16

what's possibly to come? Well,

21:20

I think if you listen to the

21:23

January 6th apologists, it's clear

21:26

that it wasn't a one-off.

21:29

I mean, those who are in jail are

21:31

being celebrated now as martyrs

21:33

and hostages by the same

21:35

political leaders who condemned them the day

21:37

afterwards. The scariest thing for me,

21:40

in addition to the reality that January

21:43

6, if anything, was just a dress

21:45

rehearsal for the next one, is

21:48

that I think

21:50

the most cynical enablers of

21:53

the insurrection, the Josh Hollies,

21:55

the Elise Staphonics, the Ted

21:57

Cruzes, have come to realize

22:00

along with their foot soldiers in

22:02

these movements, that maybe you don't

22:05

actually need to break windows and

22:07

storm a building in order

22:10

to thwart the

22:12

will of the people, in order to upend

22:14

a democratic election. If you can

22:16

take over an entire party, well,

22:18

then you get the building that way. And

22:21

that, in some ways, is even

22:23

scarier because it's insidious. Yeah. So

22:27

violence is not required. The takeover continues.

22:29

Well, it's well underway, of course.

22:31

The Republican Party is hostage

22:33

to Trump and the MAGA

22:36

base, and they're not going

22:38

to change the stripes anytime soon. Maybe

22:41

if he loses, it might finally

22:43

happen. But speaking of

22:45

extremism in our midst, how do you think

22:47

we can end the appeal to the general

22:51

population and avoid future violence?

22:53

And I know you just said the party can just do

22:56

it, but we actually need to change hearts and

22:58

minds. We need to find a way

23:00

to get people to reject

23:02

this ideology. Well, I

23:05

have to constantly remind myself that

23:07

I live in my own kind

23:09

of information bubble. Bubble's

23:11

probably not the right word, but

23:13

it's an information ecosystem in which

23:15

I swim in politics. I

23:18

hear about just about every

23:21

utterance from the former president

23:23

that suggests of this

23:25

slide towards authoritarianism. I know that he's

23:27

talking about being dictator for a day,

23:30

and I also know that no one

23:32

is dictator for just a day. I

23:34

know he's talked about terminating

23:37

the Constitution if he

23:39

could. I know the ins and outs of

23:41

the classified documents case and just how much

23:44

it risked our national security.

23:46

Most Americans don't though. And

23:49

I think we forget that sometimes

23:51

in this ecosystem. We've

23:53

got a podcast that delves deeply

23:55

into politics. I do too. Most

23:58

people don't have a podcast that delves deeply into politics.

24:00

deeply into politics. They have real jobs,

24:02

right? They have families to take care

24:04

of, and they're not paying

24:07

attention every day to how dangerous it

24:09

would be to elect Donald Trump for

24:11

a second term. But

24:13

between now and November of 2024, we have the opportunity

24:18

to educate them. I still believe in

24:20

this country as much as I did the

24:22

day I raised my right hand

24:24

the first time and sworn out to the

24:27

Constitution. And I believe that Americans, if acquit

24:30

with the facts, if

24:33

they know the truth about Donald Trump

24:35

and the threat he poses, we'll reject

24:37

him outright. I think we can get

24:39

there. We have a little

24:41

more than half a year to do it. And I think

24:44

his defeat in November of 2024 will be resounding, but it has

24:46

to be

24:49

resounding. If it's close at all,

24:52

we're going to see a repeat of

24:54

January 6th, and it's going to be terrible. Yeah,

24:57

we definitely don't want that. He's

24:59

not confident that there will be

25:02

a resounding defeat of Donald Trump.

25:04

And I wonder even, and I don't like this,

25:06

this is just conjecture, because

25:09

of course we don't know what the future will bring.

25:11

But if you believe Chris

25:14

Christie, he will be convicted in

25:16

March. And do you think

25:18

that will actually stop

25:20

his candidacy? No, no,

25:22

not at all. Not at all, because

25:24

his candidacy is not driven

25:26

by the will of the American people. It's

25:29

driven by a faction within

25:31

the Republican Party, a dominant faction.

25:33

I think the Republican Party has

25:35

to reform itself. It's not going

25:37

to recover from this if

25:39

Trump is still part of it. But

25:42

these indictments, even a

25:44

conviction, we've seen again

25:47

and again, it is just fodder

25:49

for the conspiracy theories that

25:52

propel Trump's candidacy. So

25:54

within that Dynamic,

25:57

the Republican Party primary.

26:00

Dynamic. I don't think it hurts

26:02

him at all. Actually, I just

26:04

have to look at the track

26:06

record. Every indictment that's come down

26:08

has are actually boosted his popularity

26:10

with likely republican primary voters. Moon.

26:14

Well you know you were saying

26:16

that people a they understood the

26:18

Tuesday will change their minds but.

26:20

We are actually living. Very much in

26:22

a post truth moment. and honestly the

26:24

fact that Trump is the front runner

26:26

right now if he has not yet

26:28

clinched the nomination and this moment it

26:30

feels like. We're actually living in the

26:32

Twilight Zone. So technology has amplified

26:35

the voices and insolence as these

26:37

movements extremism, the ideology, how has

26:39

the information landscape save their success?

26:42

and how should we be talking

26:44

about domestic extremism with our friends

26:46

and our family and the people

26:49

that he know who are attracted

26:51

to this so. When. It

26:53

comes to Jang Six, for example. A Some

26:55

people say we should call it a criminal

26:58

conspiracy and an attack on our country. Some

27:00

say we shouldn't call it an insurrection or

27:02

an attempted coup. What's your view? While.

27:06

I think you call it. What it is.

27:08

It was an attempt to block

27:11

the peaceful transfer of power. It.

27:13

Was an attempt to subvert.

27:16

A democratic. Election

27:18

to overturn the results. using.

27:21

Violence. Is that

27:23

seems to be is as

27:25

close to defining an insurrection

27:27

as you can get. It

27:29

was disorganized, it was chaotic,

27:31

it was clownish in a

27:33

lot of ways, but no

27:35

less menacing, and but for

27:37

the be incredible courage of

27:40

a handful of law enforcement

27:42

officers and representatives who stood

27:44

up to the mob and.

27:46

Carried out their duty, Later.

27:49

That evening. We. Would

27:51

not have had that transfer of power so

27:53

it was an insurrection. It was also a

27:55

criminal conspiracy. It was also have to. I

27:57

suppose in some cases it depends the on

27:59

the audience but we have to tell the

28:01

truth about it no matter what. Well.

28:05

Given. All the things that you've

28:07

done now salary as views on

28:09

American civic life. Evolved.

28:13

Oh, that's a great question maybe.

28:15

Oh sure how my views on

28:18

patriotism have evolved as I think

28:20

it's very closely related. mean I

28:23

joined the military straight out of

28:25

college. As

28:27

well as a very

28:29

patriotic gesture and. Looking.

28:33

Back, I realize that my patriotism

28:35

was born of privilege. I'd join

28:37

the military because I wanted to

28:39

give back because I wanted to

28:41

serve a country that I felt

28:43

indebted to. But I have served

28:45

with so many people since then,

28:47

most in the military and out

28:49

of the military who have. A

28:52

much richer and more nuanced

28:54

sense of patriotism, a much

28:57

deeper love of country as

28:59

a result and maybe I'll

29:01

highlight one of. The.

29:03

Protagonists in the film Mike

29:06

Washington who lost his son

29:08

in Afghanistan. might himself was

29:10

a career marine, rose to

29:12

the highest enlisted ranks in

29:14

the Marine Corps. And

29:17

when we talk about patriotism, It's.

29:20

Just. So obvious to me

29:22

that. The best kind of

29:24

patriotism. The richest kind of patriotism

29:26

is that which seeks to make

29:28

the country better. It's. Not

29:30

a patriotism born of gratitude or

29:32

thinking that America is is so

29:34

great. It's done so much for

29:37

me. It's the kind of patriotism

29:39

that says there's so much work

29:41

left to do. There are so

29:43

many unfulfilled promises and I'm going

29:45

to fight for this country to

29:47

realize those promises for others from

29:49

my family and some cases for

29:51

me. But it's that patriotism of

29:54

moving the country forward and. That.

29:56

is fundamentally change the way i think

29:58

about sir service to the country. Mm,

30:01

that's beautiful. So

30:03

tell me if you could

30:06

have a megaphone and

30:08

speak to every American. What is it

30:10

that you want them to know in

30:12

this moment about the election in 24?

30:17

That would be a great megaphone

30:20

to have. I

30:22

would keep things very simple, and

30:24

I would say that our

30:27

elections are secure, and

30:30

that anyone who tells you otherwise is

30:32

trying to manipulate you and

30:35

scare you and lie to you. I

30:38

think the big lie about the

30:41

election results, which is the fuel

30:43

that keeps Trump's candidacy and the

30:45

rage of his most ardent followers

30:48

going, that has

30:50

done more damage to our country than

30:52

any political lie maybe

30:54

in our history. I'd have to think hard about

30:56

that, but certainly in the

30:58

modern era, the lie about the election

31:00

has torn our country

31:03

apart, has torn families apart

31:05

in ways that I

31:07

can't think of certainly in my lifetime. And

31:10

I think the critical message I would

31:12

convey is to

31:15

expose that lie and say that

31:17

fundamentally, our elections are

31:20

secure, and the will of the

31:22

people will be honored

31:25

in November of 2024 as it was in November of 2020. That's

31:30

a good message. I had the odd

31:33

fortune of sitting next to a QAnon

31:35

member at a wedding last

31:37

year, and he told me that he

31:39

would never vote again. And

31:41

I looked at him and I thought, okay,

31:44

that's wild. That's the thing that he wanted

31:46

to tell me. He said,

31:48

I voted for Trump twice, but now I just

31:50

don't believe it anymore, and elections are rigged and

31:52

there's no point in voting. And

31:55

those people control it anyway. It

31:58

was a very strange conversation. So

32:01

what are two things an

32:03

everyday person can do to

32:05

reject extremism from our public

32:07

sphere? Well, between

32:10

now and 2024, tune in, of course. Be

32:16

mindful of your sources

32:19

of information because there is so

32:21

much disinformation out there

32:25

and listen to people who are

32:27

living real experiences.

32:30

Let me just take a case in point with

32:32

all of these draconian

32:34

anti-trans bills that are

32:36

making their way through

32:39

legislatures. It

32:41

is strange to me that

32:44

the most outspoken and

32:47

virulent opponents of

32:49

trans rights are, in most

32:51

cases, people who have never met a

32:53

trans person or have a trans person

32:55

in their family or in their close

32:57

circle of loved ones. And

33:00

I think if you just took

33:02

a moment to have a conversation with

33:05

a trans person, and we could map

33:07

this idea onto the history of bigotry

33:09

and how it works its way through

33:11

our culture, there's this saying

33:14

Brene Brown has that it's hard to

33:16

hate up close. And I think

33:19

if we just talk to

33:21

the people we're supposed to be afraid of,

33:23

we would see their humanity. We would

33:26

reject the hate that

33:28

is coursing through our political

33:30

system. And I think

33:32

that would do a lot to undermine

33:34

the provocateurs, the ones who want us

33:36

to hate. Very good advice.

33:38

Thank you. So as

33:40

we are rounding out our conversation

33:42

here today, looking into the future,

33:45

what makes you hopeful? Young

33:48

people make me hopeful. And I

33:50

know that's probably somewhat cliched, but as

33:52

a father of three, it

33:54

gives me incredible hope to see

33:56

that My kids and their

33:58

friends. Reject. Outright

34:01

the ideas that are are

34:03

being. Elevated and promoted

34:05

by the people. That

34:08

that I'm talking about the Donald

34:10

Trump's of the World. The challenge

34:12

for us as a as a

34:14

country as lasting close enough to

34:16

hand them the reins. I mean

34:18

it is happening. It is striking

34:20

to me it's how terrified the

34:22

Republican party is of Taylor Swift

34:24

and I think that is a

34:26

great saying. The fact that young

34:29

people are taking the reins even

34:31

when they're not being handed over

34:33

I think is an almost are

34:35

ambiguous. good for the country. Was.

34:38

Here here while can. thank you very much

34:40

for being on the podcast and was really

34:42

a pleasure to have you on the shell.

34:45

Thank. You so much for having me! Can.

34:48

Harbaugh as a veteran, the executive

34:51

producer as the Against All Enemies

34:53

documentary out on March Twenty Ninth,

34:55

and the host of the Burn

34:58

The Boats podcast. Sweet

35:03

fruit peaches inside bridge isn't. By just

35:06

hyper Cz Executive director of Blue

35:08

Missouri, the host at the Dirt

35:10

Road Democrats podcast and ran for

35:12

District one and the Missouri House

35:14

of Representatives. In Twenty Twenty Two

35:16

People I say that Missouri as

35:18

a red say and I same

35:20

as areas and uncontested state we

35:22

pass progressive ballot measures we have

35:24

recreational may have one hundred for

35:26

hates People are excited about progressive

35:28

ballot measure so I have ever

35:30

felt say then why did they

35:32

vote for republicans Will France I

35:34

didn't have. Any wonderful for forty per

35:36

cent of our seat Flint uncontested. This year

35:38

when I go to the ballot, there's gonna

35:41

be no one for me to vote for.

35:43

See, you can't turn that around and say

35:45

it will. This is your problem because you

35:47

go poorly. That's next time. On future hindsight,

35:50

and before i go first of all

35:52

thanks so much for listening if you

35:54

like this episode you'll love what we

35:57

have in store be sure to hit

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36:23

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