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shopify.com/hopeful all lower. Welcome

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to Future Hindsight a podcast that takes

0:26

big ideas about civic life and democracy

0:29

and turns them into action items for

0:31

you and me. I'm Mila Utmost. It's

0:41

Twenty Twenty Four and the future of

0:44

America is in your hands. Democracy is

0:46

not a spectator sport, so we're here

0:48

to bring you an independent perspective about

0:50

the election this year and empower you

0:53

to change the status quo. We.

0:56

Are Democracy die Hards on

0:58

this podcast. So of course

1:00

we've had many conversations about

1:02

democracy reform such as: ranked

1:04

Choice voting, Open Primaries, Deliberate

1:06

Of Democracy. And even a

1:08

constitutional amendment to ensure an affirmative

1:10

right to vote. In. A

1:13

time when it feels like democracy

1:15

is on it's last legs and

1:17

it's legitimacy as a political system

1:19

is in doubt. We can all

1:22

agree that democracy needs a fundamental

1:24

reorientation. True. To our

1:26

tagline of exploring big ideas, we're

1:28

going to unpack and exciting new

1:30

paradigm and democracy. Power. Sharing

1:33

liberalism are guess today is

1:35

Danielle Allen She said Bryant

1:37

Conant University professor at Harvard

1:39

University and director of the

1:42

Island Lab for Democracy Renovation

1:44

at Harvard Kennedy Schools Ash

1:46

Center for Democratic Governance. And.

1:48

Innovation her most recent book as

1:51

Justice by Means of Democracy. Danielle

1:53

is not new to future hindsight. She joined

1:55

us and Twenty Twenty Two to talk about

1:57

her book, Democracy and the Time Of course,

2:00

Pirate welcome back then you Thank

2:02

you for joining us. Thank you

2:04

so much Mila it's to be

2:06

here. Glad be part of your

2:08

diehard democracy crew. That's us. So

2:11

we know of course that for democracy

2:13

to be illegitimate, it needs to deliver

2:16

on it's promise of human flourishing, of

2:18

delivering happiness upon his constituents and in

2:20

the spirit of the ancient philosophers render

2:22

a virtuous society We are undoubtedly and

2:25

a time of unhappiness. But as a

2:27

political philosopher and a practitioner who is

2:29

deeply. Steeped in the work of

2:31

democracy, how would you describe what

2:33

is indexing American Democracy today? Are

2:35

the wheels falling off? So.

2:38

I appreciate your starting Mila with

2:40

the concepts of happiness and flourishing.

2:42

and I appreciate besides that you've

2:44

said out loud, were in an

2:47

unhappy time I think that's fair.

2:49

There's a lot of Mel as

2:51

everywhere I go every time I'm

2:53

speaking to a group of people

2:55

so that much have a lot

2:57

of different sources of in their

2:59

the challenges of rapid change. Whether

3:01

that's because of technology or what

3:03

we can perceive with rapid immigration,

3:05

people have different sources of anxiety

3:07

that. Are affecting them for sure of

3:10

courses of the economy, the huge housing

3:12

challenges that so many people experience, especially

3:14

young people as a long list of

3:16

things that add up to that notion

3:18

that we don't really have a sense

3:20

of safety and wellbeing. At

3:22

the end of the day, any society

3:25

these to deliver that for his people,

3:27

a sense of safety and wellbeing and

3:29

our democracy is is falling short. right

3:31

now. Are the wheels falling off? I

3:34

don't think that wheels are actually falling

3:36

off at the end of the day.

3:38

I do think there's enough. You're in

3:41

Us as a people who we are,

3:43

in this country, as Americans, The way

3:45

we care about our communities, their resources

3:47

to tap into to revitalize. I saved

3:50

our democratic institutions so that they actually

3:52

meet. That standard of securing our

3:54

safety and happiness. Home.

3:57

Well I first saw you speak at the

3:59

opening event. For the Eric holder. Initiative

4:01

for Civil and Political Rights where the

4:03

audience was wondering how to quote Save

4:05

Democracy and among other things. Since then

4:08

you have been a coauthor report called

4:10

Reinventing American Democracy for the Twenty First

4:12

Century and your latest book. Of course,

4:14

just as By Means Of Democracy came

4:16

out and Twenty Twenty Three, I am

4:18

personally excited to learn about a new

4:20

paradigm for democracy and especially since it

4:23

is centered on humans. At least this

4:25

is how I read your book and

4:27

when I was reading it I was

4:29

wondering how you came up with. This

4:31

framework power sharing Liberalism to address

4:33

the question of justice and democracy.

4:35

I think when we hear the

4:37

word justice, most of us think

4:39

of it narrowly in relation to

4:41

crime. So. To. You, what is justice

4:43

And why do we need democracy to get

4:46

us there? Were. Me with

4:48

his for the sake you so much

4:50

for reading my book said really appreciate

4:52

it. It's always an honor possibly spend

4:54

time with ones writing so thank you

4:56

to you for that. The term justice

4:58

in my book at me like a

5:00

do in many ways draw from a

5:02

long tradition of philosophy and justice is

5:04

a big word effect aerosol. sort of

5:06

said there's justice with a capital day

5:08

and justice with a little day. And

5:10

justice with a little the that leave or conceptually

5:12

you mentioned. That connects to the legal

5:15

system and crime and rehabilitation and

5:17

so forth. But does this with

5:19

a Capital Day is about the

5:21

whole of human well being and

5:23

the question whether or not a

5:25

society is constituted to support human

5:27

thriving. That's really what justice is

5:29

fundamentally about. So I'm really reading

5:31

about that Big J and Justice

5:33

Yeah, the whole whole kit and

5:35

caboodle of human well being as

5:37

the argument I'm making as that

5:39

well being for all of us

5:41

does depend on democracy. This. Is an

5:43

argument that runs against the tradition of of

5:45

philosophy of us have that many have said

5:47

well as Democracy is really about Majora Terry

5:49

Aneurysm. Isn't it possible that

5:51

the majority will austen vote against was

5:53

actually in the best interests of all?

5:55

And so I'm trying to argue against

5:57

that by offering a conception of democracy.

6:00

Power Sharing Liberalism where the

6:02

way to actually functions addresses

6:04

issues of power imbalances. and

6:06

by addressing this is a

6:08

power imbalances increases significantly. The

6:10

likelihood that the decisions made

6:12

by society will supports broad

6:14

human thriving. So that is

6:16

how are trying to put

6:18

the concept of justice and

6:20

democracy together. So.

6:23

On civil of a deeper on power

6:25

sharing Liberalism: How doesn't improve? The.

6:27

Way we are practicing and

6:29

living democracy today. Sure,

6:32

and I appreciate that. I think you

6:34

also asked with your last question how

6:36

I had come up with this sort

6:38

of framework of a concept and maybe

6:40

let me tell little bit of the

6:42

story of that. Here in this country

6:45

in the U S a particular a

6:47

lot of us wrestle with the paradox

6:49

of noble ideals on paper and harsh

6:51

realities of a precedent domination in the

6:53

world. As I'm just like everybody else,

6:55

I also have wrestled with those paradoxes

6:58

I found seen as a sort of

7:00

developing. As a scholar. That they were released

7:02

or of two approaches to this paradox? There's approach.

7:04

That said, thought it was all just feel the

7:06

ideas were perfect from the get go is just

7:09

that we weren't able to realize that, and that

7:11

we've been progressively working to realize the vision that

7:13

the founders laid out. That sort of camp one.

7:16

And the this camp to which says no,

7:19

you know slavery was a fatal flaw. The.

7:21

Whole thing was about racial domination. Everything

7:24

was a mistake and we really have

7:26

to serve. Scrap all thing and start

7:28

over. That's camp number two, and I

7:31

don't think actually either of us camps

7:33

quite has it right. I think that's

7:35

the originals' ideals of self government. them

7:38

freely equal citizens were sound at the

7:40

same time. conceptual mistakes were made in

7:42

addition to the on the ground mistakes

7:44

as I've really have zeroed in on

7:47

this conceptual mistakes and I've been trying

7:49

to correct them. So let me be.

7:51

Really explicit about conceptual mistakes that I

7:54

saw services get a require my diving

7:56

into the Declaration of Independence say oh,

7:58

how to forgive me. For a

8:00

minute, go ahead. So the second centers of

8:02

the declaration is incredibly long. Everybody knows the

8:05

first part, but we forget how long the

8:07

whole thing is said. This is the famous.

8:09

We hold these truths to self evident that

8:11

all men are created equal, that they are

8:13

endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights.

8:16

That among these are life, liberty, and a

8:18

pursuit of happiness. That. A Secure

8:20

These Rights governments are instituted among men,

8:22

driving their just powers from the consent

8:25

of the governed that whenever any form

8:27

of government becomes destructive of these ends.

8:30

It. Is the right of the people to alter? Or

8:33

to abolish set and institute

8:35

new government. Laying it's foundation

8:37

on such principles and organizing,

8:39

it's powers and such form

8:41

as to themselves seem most

8:43

likely to affect their safety

8:45

and happiness. That. Very long

8:47

sentence which has us or of theory

8:49

of evolution and at a theory about

8:51

government is in it. That is the

8:53

sort of the anchor conceptual paradigm for

8:55

hours to two sons. However

8:58

and as a lot of good enough but

9:00

the face of the mistake crept and as

9:02

at the very very end of that so

9:04

does to remind at the very end with

9:06

the drafters of that are saying is that

9:09

they're sort of a two part job for

9:11

running a democracy. you gotta lay the foundational

9:13

principles. And that he also to

9:15

organize the powers of government. Legislative. Executive,

9:17

etc in order to deliver on those

9:20

principles and secure safety and happiness. Now

9:22

that split between principles and how powers

9:24

are organized was actually something that they

9:26

tip really seriously. And the way it

9:28

came out was at the time of

9:31

the drafting of a declaration several people

9:33

for example wrote to John Adams. John

9:35

Adams was one of the drafters of

9:37

that tax. It wasn't as Thomas Jefferson

9:40

that people who wrote to him included

9:42

Abigail Adams and she said worse but

9:44

the place for women And thus and

9:46

another colleague. Wrote to him as had

9:48

what's the place for working people and what's

9:50

the place for Free and the Lakers of

9:53

the time free negroes in this and so

9:55

Adams gave the same answer to everybody. His

9:57

answer was basically. The. Principles.

10:00

The idea that. There are these

10:02

basic rights and we should be securing

10:04

the safety of happiness of everybody. That

10:06

is for everybody that applies to everybody

10:09

Said but he said with regard to

10:11

how we organize the powers of governments.

10:13

For that he said we're gonna preserve

10:15

our masculine system and by what she

10:18

meant that power should be held by

10:20

white man with property rights. So that's

10:22

where the mistake was to think that

10:25

you could put power in the hands

10:27

of some and protect the rights of

10:29

all. Power.

10:32

Held absolutely corrupts and they made an

10:34

active choice to hold power absolutely at

10:36

that time and place. So I consider

10:38

my job to be to correct that

10:40

error in order for us in fact

10:43

to have up to set of principles

10:45

basic rights of do apply to everybody

10:47

and where we're working to secure the

10:49

safety of happiness of everybody. That it

10:51

must also be the case we put

10:53

power the hands of everybody. So

10:56

that's where. Power. Sharing liberalism comes from

10:58

Abigail Adams recognized her husband's mistakes. He

11:01

said him, you know husband's of typically

11:03

tyrannized their wives. If abuse that power,

11:05

you know maybe we'll be okay this

11:08

time. But if not, she said we

11:10

women will have to foment a rebellion

11:12

for voice and representation. And when she

11:14

said that right, fomenting rebellion for voice

11:17

and representation, she was naming the fact

11:19

that power needs to be shared If

11:21

you're going to be able to deliver

11:24

on securing average rights and providing a

11:26

foundation for their. Flourishing. So in that

11:28

regard, I consider parser Liberalism to have

11:30

been invented by Abigail Adams. Have

11:33

I'm just? I'm just the way

11:36

out. Two hundred and fifty years

11:38

later, or exponent of a conceptual

11:40

discovery that she made And it

11:42

was a genuine conceptual discovery at

11:44

the time I blew Shootout in

11:46

the tradition of philosophical advances. Here.

11:49

Here here while. Talk.

11:51

About power sharing. Liberalism it's clear

11:53

that requires civic participation and you

11:56

talk about this of course. And

11:58

the book. You. Know. Quite

12:00

deep Civic thinking. Civic engagement,

12:03

And. That the idea? Obviously

12:05

that democracy is a practice that we

12:07

get in there and. Share power. And

12:10

we're totally into that here. As you

12:12

to my side, but not a lot of

12:14

Americans as typically Gates I think you

12:16

know this. I just discovered recently that

12:18

according to a survey by the Knight

12:20

Foundation among the respondents for why they

12:22

didn't vote. Eighty. Percent cited

12:24

a lack of interest in

12:26

May just don't care as

12:28

a thought oh, you know

12:30

we're doomed, but. But. Really,

12:33

I'm curious. How can we?

12:35

We activate our appetite for civic

12:37

as if it ever existed? A?

12:39

How can we get people excited

12:41

about. Wanting to share power? I

12:45

think you put your finger on the

12:47

most important question, the question of motivation.

12:49

Now we know what the best source

12:51

of motivation is for wanted to share

12:54

power that as having all power absolutely

12:56

stripped from you. So when we look

12:58

around the world and we see people

13:00

who are living in repressive regimes are

13:03

we read history books about people who

13:05

lived under the thumb of domination including

13:07

for example, African Americans in this country

13:09

for much of our country's history. Those.

13:12

Stores over and over again show us

13:14

people expressing the value of freedom, the

13:16

value of power that I have access

13:18

to self government. So when

13:20

one doesn't sealed us. The harshness of

13:22

his absence? A message to be easy

13:24

to take access to power for granted.

13:26

So the hard to challenging thing is

13:29

at the other the worst things get.

13:31

I think the more people are gonna

13:33

want access to power, but we don't

13:35

want to let that happen so we

13:37

have to activate that motivation sooner so

13:40

we can protect these structures of self

13:42

government. For that. I think what works

13:44

is actually participating in power sharing itself

13:46

is very rewarding. People just literally enjoy

13:48

it. It's fun. it feels good when

13:50

you can. See the outcome of a collector

13:53

process that you've had some hand in shaping and

13:55

even sometimes of yo. It never comes out exactly

13:57

the way you want us to. Sort of paradox

13:59

of. Mccarthy, We all input our own

14:01

wills, our own desires, and the thing

14:03

that comes out of the other and

14:06

doesn't match anybody's will our desires perfectly.

14:08

At Vassar of the definition of the

14:10

thing. Despite. That there is

14:12

great satisfaction sir. at the level does

14:14

intrinsic feeling absorb happiness and goodness. I

14:17

come from participating so for me it

14:19

would. My approach has been I think

14:21

that for any adults his participating it's

14:24

sort of their job to identify four,

14:26

five, six young people you're not one

14:28

to was Gabi one to four, five

14:30

or six or something like that where

14:33

is literally or jobs to invite them

14:35

in with you to join you in

14:37

the work of participation and it kind

14:40

of doesn't matter really. What it is

14:42

but all of us to be issuing the

14:44

invitations and supporting the learning because once people

14:46

do it, they have a good time and

14:48

then they're hooked. And that's really how we

14:50

have to reengage people. Ah,

14:52

that's a good idea. We're

14:57

going to take a break to thank our sponsor. Shopify

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and when we come back we'll

15:02

discuss what defense without domination means.

15:05

Where we can find unity and

15:07

our current politics And milner What

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first? Son.

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I also want to share about a

17:07

new podcast called The Amendment in guides

17:09

listeners past the headlines and into a

17:11

thoughtful discussion on the news through the

17:14

lens of. Gender and Race. Pay

17:18

our an air hang A host of

17:20

The Amendment, a brand new weekly podcast

17:22

on gender, politics and power brought to

17:25

you by the nightly news and Wonder

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Media Network is probably heard the news

17:29

that this election year our democracy is

17:32

at stake on the Amendment. I'm breaking

17:34

down with that actually mean specifically. For

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the Mars last folks. Who depend on democracy the

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most? This is

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a show that that's passed the headlines. And

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gets clear on the unfinished work of our

17:45

democracy. Listen to the

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moment now wherever you get your pocket, And

17:54

now let's return to my conversation

17:56

with Danielle Island. So

18:01

it's popular nowadays to say they were

18:03

aiming to achieve a multi cultural democracy

18:05

and I know a lot of young

18:08

people are invested in this and they

18:10

talk about it. And let's one of

18:12

the things that the articulate all the

18:14

time but you actually articulated different frame

18:17

for including different voices. And as a

18:19

naturalized citizens who came here alone as

18:21

an exchange student I was really struck

18:23

by what you call difference without domination.

18:26

I'll say here that as a teenager.

18:28

Exchange. Student It seemed like the

18:31

whole point of the project is

18:33

to assimilate and take on and

18:35

American identity. So what is defenses

18:37

are domination. How does it differ

18:39

from multiculturalism and from assimilation? And

18:41

how does it fit into. Your. Theory

18:44

right? Okay to appreciate

18:46

that question. So. At.

18:49

The end of the day freedom. Generates.

18:51

Difference from him. People have known this

18:53

for centuries and so the benefit of

18:56

of being free is that we have

18:58

the chance to shape our own lives.

19:00

We have the chance to form bonds

19:02

with. The. People that we choose

19:04

and that will generate. Cultural.

19:06

Communities and yo group affinity groups and

19:09

up than being also that of groups

19:11

were difference emerges. This is a beautiful

19:13

thing. It's one of the great rewards

19:15

of freedom. It makes cultural vibrance and

19:18

alive. So. The

19:20

question of course the challenges that

19:22

historically difference has often also gotten

19:25

connected with domination groups form and

19:27

then they start to hoard opportunity

19:30

or try to make sure they

19:32

have advantage in comparison to other

19:34

groups. So the challenge for a

19:37

happy forcing society as to support

19:39

that's emergence of beautiful diversity but

19:41

to hinder any development of a

19:44

leagues domination so in the suit

19:46

sense. I think that kind of earlier pair.

19:48

Of assimilation didn't really.

19:51

Bring. Enough appreciation for the value of

19:53

diversity. I'm really ask people to it's

19:55

or of give up important parts of

19:57

themselves, pieces of cultural heritage and so

19:59

forth. In order to have access to

20:01

a share of political power. I

20:04

am really trying to shift that to say

20:06

no, we cannot bring our whole cells to

20:08

the shared project of democracy and have our

20:10

share political power. And so that's really where

20:12

to have different without domination comes. And I

20:15

do often use the word multicultural to talk

20:17

about with hundred democracy I'm trying to build

20:19

as well. Although it's true that in the

20:21

eighties and nineties. Is repaired. I

20:23

was. Multiculturalism was one in which group

20:26

identities were very sexy as hell, politics

20:28

was released or thought of as a

20:30

relationship among groups, and I am trying

20:32

to move beyond. That's when our experiences

20:34

of our own, the a lib senses

20:37

of who we are, our own identities

20:39

are very fluid and there's an awful

20:41

lot of crossing and mixing across cultural

20:43

lines and we want support that dynamism

20:45

we don't want to sort of bake

20:47

in an expectation that see a specific

20:50

group, identities are fixed and rigid and

20:52

the like. so. I'm really sort

20:54

of seeking to support kind of

20:56

cultural dynamism as a part of

20:58

this project of pursuing difference without

21:00

domination. While. You also translate.

21:03

That towards the our

21:05

economic. Philosophy with in the

21:07

Construct. A power Sharing liberalism. That

21:10

you know, another popular strand in some

21:12

dinner party composition. The said capitalism and

21:14

neoliberalism are eating us alive and we

21:17

need to abandon ship. So you make

21:19

the case for what you call economic

21:21

egalitarianism. What does that mean? And how

21:24

does power sharing liberalism get us there?

21:26

Sure, So in such

21:28

as the basic idea under Gritting

21:31

Bird politically connor me and my

21:33

book is that the economy should

21:35

serve the ends of human flourishing

21:38

so we're not interested. Me, economy

21:40

does for the sake of the

21:42

economy. The goal is not just

21:44

actually maximal accumulation, the goal is

21:47

a dynamic economy that supports people

21:49

in their lives. And as for

21:51

people in their lives, requires supporting

21:54

their empowerment politically as well supporting

21:56

them. Materially so that then provides

21:58

a frame for. In an

22:01

economic policy, what approaches to

22:03

political economy can provide a

22:05

foundation for people to have

22:07

that share a power in

22:09

a constitutional democracy. And the

22:11

answer is that you know

22:13

we need a combination of

22:15

the markets of public sector

22:17

investment to support and help

22:19

solve some collective action problems

22:22

and civil society engagements or

22:24

nonprofits, mutual aid associations, and

22:26

things like that. So.

22:28

In that regard, it really is about yo.

22:31

Of. Approaches that enable cooperation across the

22:33

three dimensions: Market, public sector, civil

22:35

society, private sector with different combinations

22:37

being necessary in some sense for

22:39

different features of the economy. So

22:41

in that regard, harness or break

22:43

through the kind of binary argument

22:45

between say capitalism and neoliberalism on

22:47

the one hand and sir big

22:50

state picture of the economy on

22:52

the other hand are missing. Each

22:54

of those pictures gets something wrong.

22:56

is also important to remember that

22:58

a market economy and capitalism or

23:00

not the same. Things A ah,

23:02

a market economy where you're protecting property

23:04

rights and pre transactions is is absolutely

23:06

a critical source of wellbeing for human

23:09

beings. But there can be different rules

23:11

of the road for market economies, some

23:13

of which better support some a gala

23:16

terry and results than others. Whom

23:19

you know what? I was kind

23:21

of surprised by and sad when

23:23

we think about. Neo

23:25

Liberalism today. or at least in that

23:27

the people that I've been speaking with

23:29

let's say, A lot of

23:31

people blame Libertarians. And.

23:34

You. Know we think about higher or

23:36

Rothbart, but you. Obsolete You pointed at

23:38

Rawls and I was surprised by that

23:40

and I thought oh wait, it's you

23:42

know to your point it's been faked

23:44

and all this time and. I'm

23:46

curious as to why you didn't

23:49

talk. About Libertarians in your book. Says

23:52

interesting and means "Hi Iq" so up a

23:54

little bit in my books, I think I

23:56

gave us a lot of great value in

23:58

fact I'm I think lots. Work

24:01

on information theory and prices and

24:03

so forth is really helpful and

24:05

and he certainly understood how important

24:07

it was to facilitate emergent coordination

24:10

among human beings to solve collective

24:12

action problems. And so that's actually

24:14

going out with have positively drawn.

24:17

Where for me? The later

24:19

Libertarian tradition goes wrong side of

24:21

thinking. more ruff Folks like Nazak

24:23

for instance is to at the

24:25

end of days fail to see

24:27

how important their wellbeing of a

24:29

community is to the wellbeing of

24:31

an individual. So often there's a

24:33

sort of line drawn between the

24:36

rational self interest of the individual

24:38

and it didn't deserve a limited

24:40

sense of what that amounts to

24:42

users want to maximize your economic

24:44

benefit for yourself for instance and

24:46

and anything either that is sort

24:48

of does made. As altruism deck,

24:50

I think that's the wrong formulation.

24:52

At the end of the day,

24:55

human beings are social creatures. We

24:57

thrive in society. We are supported

24:59

by healthy communities. We need foundations

25:02

for flourishing beneath us, which are

25:04

collectively provisions. So our infrastructure like

25:06

roads, for example, national security and

25:09

things like that as I think

25:11

the Libertarian Project in adequately recognizes

25:13

that the good of the whole

25:16

is actually baked into our own

25:18

individual self interest. Wow.

25:22

I. Mentioned at the beginning that I

25:24

thought the idea about democracy. Are.

25:27

Human centric and. Send.

25:29

Said Smillie New Or we have. You

25:31

know, we haven't really been practicing democracy.

25:33

In this way is a place where. There.

25:36

Is an example for us to emulate. Has

25:40

a great question. I do think

25:42

that assay we are living in

25:44

a period of great innovation and

25:46

democratic practice. I think it's worth

25:49

people remembering that there have been

25:51

ages of such innovation so antiquity,

25:53

Ancient Greece. They invented a lot

25:55

of stuff that hadn't been done

25:57

before and term that how human

26:00

beings can share power and some

26:02

measurable way and make decisions together.

26:04

They do that have a small

26:06

scale than we get to the

26:09

eighteenth century and the founders of

26:11

the U S made some new

26:13

inventions, representatives, institutions for instance, and

26:15

empowered south government of a larger

26:17

scale. They. Though didn't actually

26:20

fully tackle the question of how

26:22

other power structures and society in

26:24

the markets interact with the allocation

26:26

of power in the political system.

26:29

Those challenges of come to the

26:31

for the twentieth or twenty first

26:33

century as we look at this

26:35

or of histories of racial domination

26:37

but challenges around gender, power allocation

26:40

to distributions and the like. said

26:42

they were really the first generation

26:44

that has taken on the project

26:46

of achieving full power sharing. With

26:49

universal inclusion and so we're having

26:51

to learn some new practices, I

26:53

think it means in our democracy

26:56

we need some institutional tweaks. I'm

26:58

an advocate for ranked choice voting

27:00

as I think you are as

27:03

well because I think it does

27:05

a better job of including the

27:07

full electorate in decision making and

27:09

in our organizations are businesses, our

27:12

schools, our churches there to. We

27:14

have had longstanding habit of very

27:16

hierarchical structure Austin and I think.

27:18

We can do better. I

27:20

think those organizations to kid

27:23

adopt some of the concepts

27:25

of power sharing and become

27:27

stronger as organizations because I

27:29

think the learn better when

27:31

they are structured to empower

27:33

everybody to participate in appropriate

27:35

ways in decision making. Well.

27:38

One way to make decisions together

27:40

as to vote in election and

27:42

it's an election year health course.

27:45

We are inundated and extreme partisanship

27:47

right now. The On Twenty Twenty

27:49

Four and and Them Pop. You

27:51

remind us that political philosophers and

27:53

American politicians like Washington and Lincoln.

27:56

Warned us against

27:58

factionalism. And recommended. Unity.

28:01

Where can we find unity? Now, where

28:03

can we find an opportunity to choose

28:06

Unity in this moment Is. That

28:08

the great question thank you for

28:10

about well you know of though

28:12

we live in such polarized times,

28:14

we do actually. See people

28:16

choosing unity. Surprisingly frequently

28:18

at the place we see this most

28:21

often is at the state level when

28:23

we look at what happens with ballot

28:25

propositions and some of these to be

28:27

surprising. So for example, Florida and I

28:29

think Twenty eighteen a super majority of

28:32

voters and for an average restore voting

28:34

rights to people who had completed service

28:36

of their felony convictions. And in Mississippi

28:38

and for twenty a supermajority more, the

28:41

seventy percent of voters voted for new

28:43

state flag that got rid of the

28:45

old emblems of the Confederacy. Or

28:48

if you look at recent

28:50

decisions and Kansas in Ohio

28:52

around on reproductive freedom and

28:54

reproductive rights are quite a

28:56

supermajority about high high percentages

28:59

of voters came together across

29:01

partisan lines to establish and

29:03

protect compromises around the issue

29:05

of abortion and our policy

29:07

landscape. So. As it were,

29:09

we see positive Forward movement addressing

29:11

the challenges our communities face. We

29:14

often find cross ideological. Super Majority's

29:16

or near Super Majority is behind

29:18

that. So the short answer is

29:20

you know where where we have

29:22

a chance to choose? Unity I

29:24

would say. Know it can take

29:26

a look at some other. Thanks for working on it. The

29:28

state level. And pits in there.

29:30

There are some important ballot initiatives coming

29:32

up this season's Idaho, Nevada, Colorado. They're

29:35

all pursuing the the Alaska model for

29:37

Alex's where we get rid of partisan

29:39

primaries. so I think anybody was put

29:42

their hand up and support. That is

29:44

Susan Unity and the kind of way

29:46

that I was describing. I.

29:48

As a good reminder that

29:51

state politics matter exactly. Yeah, I

29:53

mean he's had a lot of episodes on state politics

29:55

and why we need to vote at the site and

29:57

local level. Where most people don't vote, you know they

29:59

only. What I mentioned earlier like you don't want

30:01

them or don't care. And if they do care

30:04

enough to vote the only vote and presidential. Elections

30:06

said. Speaking. Of elections, I

30:08

mention that you are practitioner. Aside from

30:10

being a political philosopher, So notably you

30:13

are widely. That he had a

30:15

severe that really got a sisyphean done

30:17

well. I wanted to know why did

30:19

you feel it was necessary? For you

30:21

to run to run for governor. When I ran

30:23

for governor, Yeah. Ah

30:26

well as the middle of the

30:28

Pandemics and I. Pad for

30:31

many years already been working

30:33

on democracy renovation, trying to

30:35

move forward policy reforms to

30:37

help us achieve more responsive

30:39

institutions. My motivation for doing

30:41

that Moxie reform work with

30:43

the sense that our institutions

30:45

were often failing to help

30:47

us address or hardest challenges

30:49

whether that is sort of

30:51

those epidemic of substance use

30:53

disorder or issues around gun

30:56

violence or issues around climate

30:58

change. So for me. Getting

31:00

some of those important policy

31:02

areas address requires actually more

31:04

responsive institutions. I found myself.

31:07

Three. The Pandemic. Doing a lot of

31:09

code response work and as doing

31:11

that here in Massachusetts where we

31:13

are the state with the biotech

31:15

jewels of the world. Despite that

31:18

fact, despite those resources, there were

31:20

just also these incredible disparities unfolding

31:22

before our eyes. At Harvard we

31:24

were bubble wraps during the pandemic.

31:26

We has much testing as you

31:28

could possibly want just a couple

31:30

miles away in Chelsea neighboring community.

31:33

We had one of the highest

31:35

mortality rates in the country and.

31:37

This just should never have happened in Massachusetts

31:39

and as I was watching it unfold as

31:41

I was trying to contribute to policy making.

31:44

In response, I also got angrier and angrier

31:46

and angrier at the sitting Governor and know

31:48

the general thought was that nobody's gonna run

31:50

against him. He was understood to be extremely

31:53

popular and so I thought, fine, I'm gonna

31:55

grit my teeth and eat my best schools

31:57

because somebody needs to run So that's why.

32:00

Then and then the goal is really

32:02

did to help drives our state institutions

32:04

in the direction of more responsiveness to

32:06

really critical problems. While I

32:08

do think that there's a lot of value and

32:10

running and changing the conversation. And you know, move

32:13

the overton window suit. And be among on

32:15

so many issues. Absolutely. and it helps

32:17

to have multiple people and the race.

32:19

And if you have ranked choice voting

32:21

see I have open primaries it's and

32:24

would be so much better. We would

32:26

have better voices may better voices is

32:28

wrong but you know more, more choice,

32:30

more toys or debates. We would have

32:32

better debates for sure as more debates

32:34

added evades debates about the ideas as

32:37

opposed. To a popularity contest. Since debates about

32:39

the direction that we want to pursue and

32:41

what is it you know, as a society

32:43

we actually want, we don't actually debate that

32:45

very often these days. Yeah. The

32:47

really down. So.

32:50

Norman. I ask what a two things

32:52

and everyday person can do to take

32:54

civic action. But I want

32:56

to ask you a slightly different question:

32:59

What is an experiment in democracy that

33:01

you want every day people to

33:03

engage? Okay, that's

33:05

interesting experiment. A democracy that I want

33:07

everyday people to engage in. Not a

33:10

great question. So. Okay,

33:12

here's one. For any

33:14

committee that you had to be

33:17

part of, whether it's at work

33:19

or church or a social organization.

33:22

Try experimenting with having three

33:24

chairs. For that committee. Not.

33:27

One but three three people to

33:29

differ from each other and some

33:31

way some elements of background or

33:33

perspective and learn how to work

33:36

as a trio to lead the

33:38

group that I think is a

33:40

very productive experiment. I've been fortunate

33:42

now three times to be a

33:45

part of a trio of chairs

33:47

and projects such as these and

33:49

it enables leadership that brings the

33:51

diversity of perspective and from the

33:54

very beginning at me as the

33:56

serve leaders. Are attuned to

33:58

the challenges, Ringing many

34:00

different perspectives together and conversation. And

34:03

the whole structure of the committee works.

34:05

Up Unfolds from there is different because

34:07

of that tripartite leadership model, so there's

34:10

a very direct example of sharing leadership,

34:12

right? sharing power. So I think any

34:14

place that one has a chance to

34:17

experiment with ios sharing a power such

34:19

as that. I would recommend. I

34:21

am. that's a great suggestion. So

34:24

as the a rounding out a

34:26

conversation here today looking into the

34:28

future. What makes you hopeful? Ah,

34:30

that's as a nice question. While

34:32

you know I think I have

34:34

the commercial answer. My kids makes

34:36

me hopeful as I look into

34:38

the future. I watch them growing

34:40

up there, growing up in hard

34:42

times. your they were so impacted

34:44

by the pandemic, the world is

34:46

at war all around us. Nonetheless,

34:50

They're. Creative and imaginative and caring.

34:52

and they care about their broader

34:55

community. And I know what's true

34:57

of my kids is true. So

34:59

many kids. So I think what

35:02

makes me hopeful is that we

35:04

are also rebuilding civic education, civic

35:06

learning and so we can connect

35:08

those amazing kids with real understanding

35:11

about the value of self government

35:13

and constitutional democracy. I think we'll

35:15

be in good hands. Now

35:18

here here I will say that

35:20

my own children are also very

35:22

insistent and what's happening in the

35:24

world and definitely don't think that

35:26

they should be sitting on the

35:29

sidelines and ignited very. Much. And

35:31

power airing Liberalism? exactly?

35:33

Yeah? well. Danielle, thank you so

35:35

much for joining us! On future hindsight, it was

35:37

really a pleasure to have you. Back on the

35:40

show Me was always a pleasure to speak

35:42

with you so thanks for having me. Danielle.

35:45

Allen Said, James Bryant, Conan

35:47

University Professor at Harvard University,

35:49

Director of the Alan Ladd

35:51

for Democracy Renovation at Harvard

35:54

Kennedy Schools as Center for

35:56

Democratic Governance and Innovation and

35:58

the author of Just. My

36:00

name's of democracy. Next

36:07

week my kids are, They were joined

36:09

by Philip K. Heard he's a chair

36:11

of Common Good and the author of

36:13

Every Day Freedom designing the framework. For

36:15

flourishing society America is overdue

36:18

for to. The

36:20

ground is shaky Me you can

36:22

feel it. We're going to get

36:25

to your is whether to change

36:27

is against democracy your they're always.

36:29

Polls show that some significant percentage

36:32

of Americans no longer believe in

36:34

democracy. It's incredible. So the taser

36:36

against democracy or said make it

36:38

work better. That's next

36:41

time and future hindsight. And

36:46

before I go. First of all, Thanks so

36:49

much. For listening if. You liked

36:51

this episode. Your love what we have

36:53

in store. Be sure to hit that

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Seems like a small thing, but he

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Travis and me. Until next

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