A critical part of the creative process is the ability to refine things, whether your own or others. Whatever it is you are creating, there’s almost zero chance that the first draft will be perfect. It doesn’t matter whether you’re writing, drawing, designing in 3D, making music or a video, the editing process is absolutely critical.

But it’s not necessarily one that comes naturally. We get very attached to our own creations. And it’s not always easy to tell other people that their work needs improvement and change. No-one likes to hear that their baby is ugly! So it’s hugely important that we think and talk about this skill, and train ourselves to improve it as part of our career development.

To help us learn how to refine our ideas, as ever in this episode, we have a real expert. Sarah Butler is the acclaimed author of Ten Things I've Learnt About Love, Before the Fire and Jack & Bet. Her writing has been translated into fourteen languages. She is a part-time lecturer in Creative Writing at Manchester Metropolitan University, and works with publishers and authors, reviewing and developing new work.

We learnt so much in the conversation with Sarah. Here are our key takeaways:

• As Hemingway said, "The first draft of anything is shit." Don't expect perfection first time!
• Get something down on paper or into some form you can mold. As Sarah says, it's clay to work with.
• The creative process is also a learning process: you're not just pouring out things you know. What you know is evolving as you produce, so accept that there will be iterations.
• The creative process can be like farming: sometimes you're sowing, sometimes you're harvesting, but sometimes there will be fallow moments as well. Accept that sometimes you need some fallow days and you can't always force progress.
• For big ideas you probably can't hold the whole thing in your head. Break it down into manageable chunks but make sure you keep a holistic view. Work on individual components but remember how they fit together.
• Appreciate the value of feedback. It can be scary sharing your ideas but the once you overcome that fear the benefits are enormous. Share ideas early with a diverse group - you might get different types of feedback from different people.
• This is much easier if you can grow a culture of sharing inside your organisation, so that everyone gets used to sharing their ideas - and gets practice at giving feedback
• Edit other people's work by asking questions. Don't try to impose your approach.
• Be generous and kind. No-one wants to hear that their baby is ugly!