0:00

Welcome to the future

0:00

smart parent podcast. A place

0:03

where my mom explores how to

0:03

help us kids develop a new set

0:07

of skills we need to face the

0:07

future with confidence.

0:11

And I'm Jude Foulston, an

0:11

introverted mom trying my best

0:14

to raise kids who are happy and

0:14

confident kids who embrace all

0:18

that makes them unique, while

0:18

preparing them for an exciting

0:21

future that really looks nothing

0:21

like the world we grew up in. I

0:25

believe there's a whole set of

0:25

skills that our kids aren't

0:27

being taught, these skills will

0:27

be critical for them to develop

0:31

in order to thrive in the

0:31

future. It's up to us as parents

0:35

to help them develop these

0:35

skills. The future smart parent

0:38

podcast provides resources for

0:38

parents and kids who want to be

0:41

ready for all the ways in which

0:41

the future is going to be

0:44

different from today, we will

0:44

explore this future together

0:48

bringing insights from top

0:48

futurists resources from smart

0:51

people working on making our

0:51

lives better, and most

0:54

importantly, stories of parents

0:54

who are parenting a little

0:58

differently, yet very much

0:58

intentionally for a changing

1:01

world. So join me as we explore

1:01

how we can be future smart

1:05

parents raising future smart

1:05

kids.

1:12

Welcome to this episode of the

1:12

future smart parent Podcast.

1:16

Today we're going to be talking

1:16

about how we get diversity right

1:20

in schools. I've invited my two

1:20

colleagues, Buhle Dlamini and

1:25

Graeme Codrington to chat to us

1:25

about diversity, and

1:29

specifically the things that us

1:29

white parents need to do to

1:32

ensure our schools have teachers

1:32

who represent the children,

1:36

they're teaching. Buhle helps

1:36

organizations around the world

1:40

to embrace the benefits of a

1:40

diverse work workforce and as a

1:45

parent himself, does a lot of

1:45

work with schools, and we're

1:49

privileged to have him with us.

1:49

Graeme is an expert on the

1:51

future of work, author of the

1:51

book future proof your child for

1:55

the 2020s and beyond, and also

1:55

serves on many school boards

1:59

around the country. So welcome

1:59

Graeme and Buhle, I have to be

2:04

honest, I'm quite nervous to

2:04

have this conversation live on a

2:10

podcast. Nervous because I'm

2:10

aware that it's a sensitive

2:14

conversation. When I first came

2:14

up with this idea for this

2:18

topic, I originally approached

2:18

Graeme because my feeling was

2:22

that it wasn't almost fair to

2:22

bring Buhle into the

2:25

conversation again, why a black

2:25

man has to spend more time

2:30

educating us white people, what

2:30

we really should know by now.

2:36

So. So thank you for your grace

2:36

in letting me bumble my way

2:40

through this, but welcome.

2:42

Thank you. Thank you, Jude. And

2:42

and I think that is a very fair

2:49

fear. And, and thank you for

2:49

your honesty. And I think we

2:52

have when we have when we

2:52

approach this topic, we just

2:54

have to be honest with

2:54

ourselves. And we have to be

2:57

honest with each other. And

2:57

you're absolutely right, that it

3:01

is a conversation that white

3:01

people need to have that this is

3:05

a conversation that requires

3:05

ownership by white parents,

3:09

white teachers, white

3:09

principals, you know, whoever's

3:12

involved in the space, there

3:12

needs to be ownership. What do

3:16

Yeah, you know, that as we're

3:16

recording this, it's still Black

3:16

you think Graeme? History Month in America and

3:21

Canada, February, is allocated

3:26

for that. And one of my favorite

3:26

memes that comes across every

3:33

February is reminding white

3:33

people that racism is not black

3:39

history. It's white history. And

3:39

you tend to think of slavery,

3:43

and you see all the pictures of

3:43

the slaves, but there's no slave

3:46

owners in those pictures,

3:46

because you're just seeing the

3:49

cotton fields. And we forget

3:49

that slavery and apartheid -The

3:53

victims were the black people,

3:53

the perpetrators, the real

3:58

writers of the history, were the

3:58

white people. So there's always

4:02

that reminder to me that

4:02

whenever we invite our black

4:07

colleagues and friends, to join

4:07

us in conversations about

4:13

diversity, and racism and

4:13

reconciliation, we need to be

4:18

careful that we are not

4:18

abdicating the responsibility of

4:22

their conversation to them. And

4:22

that we keep the responsibility

4:26

but we thank them for their

4:26

grace and their continued

4:31

helping us to do the work we

4:31

should have already done a long

4:35

time ago. Exactly. And you know, as they

4:36

say, When is the best time to

4:42

plant a tree? Well, that was 20

4:42

years ago, but the next best

4:45

time to plant that tree is is

4:45

now so we need to be having

4:49

these conversations. So let me

4:49

just give you a little bit of

4:51

background as to what initiated

4:51

this this conversation between

4:55

us. I saw a post on Facebook the

4:55

other day that was welcoming

5:01

some new teachers for the year.

5:01

And they were all white. So I

5:05

had commented to say, it looks

5:05

like there's some room for

5:08

growth with your diversity,

5:08

which was met with unhappiness,

5:14

there was a lot of pushback

5:14

saying that I didn't understand

5:17

the situation, and that I should

5:17

just keep my thoughts to myself,

5:21

which really just highlighted

5:21

the fact that there's so much

5:25

room for this conversation. I

5:25

don't think it's an isolated

5:28

case. I think this is happening

5:28

in schools across South Africa

5:31

across the world. But I guess my

5:31

question to to you, Buhle and

5:37

Graeme is, where do we start?

5:37

Where do we start helping white

5:41

parents understand why

5:41

representation is just so

5:46

important? Yeah, I think that's a great place to

5:48

start. And, and the reason it's

5:52

a great place to start is, is

5:52

that it is important to

5:56

understand the need for this

5:56

topic to be actually dealt with

6:03

in our schools. So the need

6:03

really arises from the fact that

6:08

if you have a school population,

6:08

that now in South Africa is an

6:13

integrated school population.

6:13

And the extent of that

6:17

integration varies from school

6:17

to school, there are other

6:21

factors that affect that. And I

6:21

think it is, it is a fair one to

6:26

say that in a South African

6:26

context, most of the schools

6:30

lack integration usually tend to

6:30

be schools that are considered

6:36

private schools or schools,

6:36

where parents will have to

6:39

actually have means for their

6:39

children to attend there. And so

6:43

there is that there's a socio

6:43

economic reality that we're

6:47

dealing with in South Africa.

6:47

But we even with that our

6:51

schools in South Africa are

6:51

largely integrated now, in terms

6:55

of racially integrated religious

6:55

integration, all of those

6:58

things, our schools are

6:58

integrated. And so that is why

7:02

it is important that the

7:02

children that go to those

7:05

schools see themselves

7:05

represented in the people that

7:09

are delivering education. And if

7:09

that doesn't happen, there is

7:13

something that actually happens

7:13

in terms of the quality of

7:16

education that those children

7:16

receive. And so here's the

7:19

important thing is that if you

7:19

have under representation, in in

7:26

the staff of the school, that

7:26

you know, the black staff that

7:29

you have in your school is

7:29

already underrepresented,

7:32

meaning that they don't feel

7:32

that they have any any authority

7:37

or power to actually make any

7:37

change. And so usually what they

7:41

will do is just, it's just to do

7:41

their work, bury their heads,

7:44

head, and so don't bring about

7:44

any more change in the school.

7:48

This is why it is important that

7:48

we address the issue of

7:53

representation in staff. And

7:53

it's a long process Graeme.

7:58

Yeah, if, if if children are

7:58

growing up, they are making

8:02

their life decisions, let's say

8:02

one of the biggest decisions

8:06

they have to make is what is my

8:06

career going to be? What am I

8:09

going to be when I grow up, and

8:09

if they look around the world,

8:14

and they get a sense that your

8:14

gender, your skin color, the

8:22

language you speak, the accent

8:22

you speak that language with? If

8:27

all of that opens certain doors

8:27

and closes other doors, they get

8:33

a very clear picture of where

8:33

they can go and where they

8:38

shouldn't go, and where they are

8:38

welcomed, and where they are not

8:41

welcomed. And that's what

8:41

representation is. That's why in

8:47

certain areas of life, black

8:47

people who are successful are so

8:52

celebrated. I'm thinking Formula

8:52

One driving, for example, with

8:56

Lewis Hamilton, why is it so

8:56

important that you have a black

9:00

superstar in that space? Because

9:00

until Lewis Hamilton did it,

9:06

most black children would look

9:06

at Formula One, the history 50

9:12

years, all the all the world

9:12

champions, look at all this and

9:16

all they see is white men. And

9:16

then whether they whether it's

9:22

real or not, whether it's said

9:22

out loud or not, they've thought

9:27

is that's not for me. And so if

9:27

you look then at lawyers, and

9:32

you look at doctors and you look

9:32

at other professions, and then

9:36

of course, if you look at

9:36

teachers, so you look at the

9:40

teachers who are teaching you,

9:40

you look at the pictures of the

9:44

headmasters and headmistresses

9:44

of the school from years before

9:48

you even came as a child to that

9:48

school. And everybody's white.

9:52

All the leaders of your school

9:52

are white, and the only black

9:56

teachers are the teachers

9:56

teaching the black languages and

9:59

maybe teaching one or two minor

9:59

subjects, and maybe teaching

10:04

some sports, maybe sports

10:04

coaches. And other than that the

10:07

only black people you see on

10:07

campus are the other cleaners

10:11

and admin stuff, you get a

10:11

picture that teaching is not for

10:15

me. So it becomes the cycle that

10:15

for decades and generations,

10:20

just continues to play itself

10:20

out. So that's why

10:25

representation matters. Yes, it

10:25

matters for the individual

10:29

teachers themselves. We can talk

10:29

about that in a second. But for

10:32

me, the reason I'm passionate

10:32

about diversity in our schools

10:35

is, that's where you change the

10:35

the impact that they had a few

10:41

100 years of apartheid and

10:41

segregation gave us because

10:46

you've got to give young

10:46

children a picture that they can

10:51

live inside of. And our schools

10:51

are not doing that, in my

10:55

opinion. I think I think it goes, as far

10:56

as also the teaching material,

11:02

and how teachers teach. We've

11:02

always said at TomorrowToday how

11:07

important storytelling is. And

11:07

if you've not, you're losing how

11:12

many stories that a half of the

11:12

class can relate to. So yeah,

11:17

there's this is that as well,

11:20

it's got it's got huge

11:20

implications also for the

11:24

success of all children. Because

11:24

what we know from research

11:30

across the world, we know this

11:30

in our organizations, we know

11:33

this in a corporate environment,

11:33

that more inclusive and more

11:37

diverse environments actually

11:37

lead to a lot of, of positive

11:42

benefits for the institution and

11:42

for the people in the

11:46

institution. And so when you're

11:46

thinking about all the people

11:49

that are involved, when there is

11:49

lack of diversity in in that

11:54

institution, it actually limits

11:54

the potential of that

11:58

institution. And so you have

11:58

children coming into school to

12:02

Graham's point, who don't see

12:02

themselves represented, and sort

12:07

of start to feel that in order

12:07

for them to succeed, they can't

12:11

be who they are, they can't

12:11

bring their culture, they can't

12:15

bring their language, they can't

12:15

bring authentically what feels

12:20

natural to them in that

12:20

environment. And so you have a

12:25

whole group of students

12:25

believing that in order to

12:29

succeed in this environment,

12:29

I've got to act white, I've got

12:32

to speak white, I've got to,

12:32

I've got to be white in every

12:36

other way, except the fact that

12:36

I can't change my skin color.

12:40

And yeah, it's a very sad

12:40

reality when you think about it.

12:43

But I know, this is what I want

12:43

to believe. I want to believe

12:47

that people in our schools in

12:47

South Africa, people who are

12:50

leading our schools, actually

12:50

are wanting to create a better

12:52

future for our children, and for

12:52

our country, that deep down,

12:56

that's what they really want. I

12:56

don't buy into this belief that

13:00

people are inherently evil, and

13:00

that they want, they only care

13:04

about their race and all of that

13:04

stuff, some to some are there.

13:08

We know that those are there.

13:08

But I think the majority of

13:11

people are really wanting to

13:11

create a better future for

13:16

themselves, for their children

13:16

and for the communities. And so

13:19

one way is to do that is to be

13:19

actively involved in this and to

13:22

champion it, and not to see it

13:22

as something that we have to be

13:26

hit over the head with. Yeah, but but here, then comes

13:28

the problem with it. Because I

13:32

agree with you. I think that

13:32

racism, if it is defined as I

13:38

hate people who are different

13:38

from me, I'm a white person, I

13:43

hate black people. If that's

13:43

racism, I think that's largely

13:46

disappeared, as you say they are

13:46

some people who still have it,

13:50

but I think we see those people

13:50

from a long distance of and

13:54

normally we can chase them away.

13:54

But racism is also the system.

14:00

It's also the institutional

14:00

structures and the way that the

14:05

system works. And this is where

14:05

I see the big problem, because I

14:09

think that schools will say to

14:09

themselves, if we could find

14:16

good black teachers, we would

14:16

hire them. We absolutely want

14:20

them every time we advertise for

14:20

a teacher, we desperately hoping

14:25

that a black person will apply,

14:25

but it never happens. Now, I

14:29

know you've got some insights,

14:29

this is this is your specialty,

14:33

not as a consultant to try and

14:33

get black people jobs. I mean,

14:37

you're a specialist in cultural

14:37

diversity and cultural

14:42

intelligence. And whether the

14:42

diversity element is is race or

14:47

culture or religion or

14:47

personality profile or gender or

14:52

generation, that there are some

14:52

rules that apply that I know

14:57

people I think will will find

14:57

valuable, because the problem

15:01

is we've talked about

15:01

representation. But this applies

15:04

in the staff room, doesn't it?

15:04

If there are only, for example,

15:07

the 50 teachers on staff, and

15:07

only two of those teachers are

15:12

people of color? How does that

15:12

play out? Does that make it

15:17

difficult for you to then employ

15:17

more people of color? If people

15:21

look at the website of the

15:21

school and say, I'm not applying

15:25

for a job, there surely is

15:25

almost like a self defeating

15:29

cycle, isn't it? Am I making

15:29

sense,

15:31

you're absolutely making sense.

15:31

And what you're talking about is

15:34

what we refer to as

15:34

underrepresented groups. So an

15:38

underrepresented group is any

15:38

part of the population that is

15:44

less than 20% of the population.

15:44

And sometimes it can go even

15:49

further down to 15 or 10% of the

15:49

population, that's when you

15:52

really have a huge other

15:52

representation in that in a

15:56

population. So what happens with

15:56

underrepresented groups is two

16:01

things happen. So fear, to speak

16:01

up, fear, to challenge fear to

16:05

bring about change, and all of

16:05

those things until you have

16:08

people of color in the

16:08

institution, but their presence

16:13

actually doesn't affect the

16:13

institution in any way. And so

16:16

it's almost like it that's where

16:16

tokenism comes in, where it's

16:21

someone that you employ to interrupt you, let's help people if if people

16:22

are feeling a little bit

16:26

stressed out, because the

16:26

conversation is about race, and

16:29

that's such a integral issue.

16:29

Think of another place in your

16:33

life, I Buhle. You and I have a

16:33

shared background in the church

16:36

environm ent. So it might be

16:36

your religious grouping that you

16:40

in, it might be in your

16:40

workplace. But you could also

16:43

imagine a school, where 90% of

16:43

the leadership 90% of the people

16:50

who are in charge are old people

16:50

forget gender, forget race,

16:56

forget culture, if that's too

16:56

difficult to understand, let's

16:58

just think about age. So now

16:58

you've got all these old people,

17:02

they the elders of the church,

17:02

they the leaders of the cricket

17:05

club, they the you know, the

17:05

school teachers, and now they

17:09

want to invite two people to

17:09

join the team to join the

17:14

leadership team. But you're 25

17:14

years old. And you look at the

17:19

picture, you look at the

17:19

website, and you see there are

17:21

50 people, and they're all older

17:21

than 60. Are you going to apply?

17:28

Are you gonna walk into that job

17:28

and say, Wow, that looks like

17:31

where I want to spend every

17:31

Wednesday night. You're not.

17:35

That's such an excellent

17:35

example. And the same example

17:38

applies to gender. We've seen

17:38

this if you're in a corporate

17:41

environment, you've seen that

17:41

many, many times. And so the

17:44

underrepresented group, the big

17:44

challenge that happens is that

17:49

no change happens until a

17:49

significant number of people are

17:55

first represented. And so that's

17:55

when so so one of the things we

18:00

were talking about earlier, is

18:00

that instead of trying of trying

18:02

to find one teacher for your

18:02

next round, it's really about

18:06

saying how can we find a group,

18:06

a group of of teachers or a

18:11

group of staff that are going to

18:11

significantly change the

18:15

environment. But before you

18:15

invite people in, there's also

18:18

another aspect, which is really

18:18

about how have you set up the

18:22

environment to be more

18:22

inclusive, because inviting

18:27

people into into an environment

18:27

where for one they looked at as

18:31

the diversity hire, that is the

18:31

worst environment to work in as

18:34

a person of color, or as the

18:34

only woman or whatever you can

18:39

look at, it is the worst

18:39

environment to walk into, when

18:44

you have been identified as the

18:44

the diversity hire,

18:49

interrupt you that was there

18:49

just for those who know sport.

18:52

And I know that that there are

18:52

people who listen to this

18:55

podcast all around the world.

18:55

But if you'll excuse us using a

18:58

South African example, as a as a

18:58

white person, I have always been

19:02

angry with people, other white

19:02

people who have complained about

19:08

the black people getting into

19:08

our national sports teams, that

19:14

especially the rugby and cricket

19:14

teams, and I've always pushed

19:18

back to say, I don't think that

19:18

at a national level we've ever

19:22

given somebody a position just

19:22

because they're black. And you

19:27

know, you must speak actual

19:27

names to me and give me those

19:31

names. And then of course when

19:31

Siya Kolisi gets promoted to

19:34

captain and wins the World Cup

19:34

for us. Now that shuts everybody

19:39

else up right. But you hear that

19:39

documentary in the background

19:45

that told the journey of their

19:45

team having to overcome their

19:52

self doubt, as some of the

19:52

greatest rugby players to ever

19:56

wear the Springbok Jersey they

19:56

would tell that you only got it

20:01

because you were black, they

20:01

were told by them by by these

20:04

racist people that influences

20:04

you, right? They self doubt they

20:09

were you think I've only got

20:09

this job because I'm black, that

20:13

can't be good for your for your

20:13

self belief. And in the sports

20:18

world, you can go out and win a

20:18

World Cup and then that shuts

20:21

everybody up. You don't

20:21

necessarily have that ability in

20:25

a classroom, or anything,

20:25

because there isn't that kind of

20:27

metric. So yes, as you say that,

20:27

well, let me now put it back as

20:33

a question to you. Is that up to

20:33

the leadership? Because I know

20:37

again, if we sorry, if you're

20:37

not a sports fan, but you know,

20:41

the chasing the sun is a

20:41

documentary if even if you're

20:44

not a sports fan, it's well

20:44

worth watching that documentary.

20:47

It's available on YouTube, to

20:47

just see this, this older white

20:53

Afrikaans guy Rassie, Erasmus,

20:53

realising what racism had done

20:59

to his team, he can almost

20:59

hardly get through an interview,

21:02

without crying as he realizes

21:02

the impact and then what they

21:05

did to fix that, does it come

21:05

down to leadership Buhle is this

21:09

about that senior leaders of a

21:09

school looking at the staff room

21:15

and saying we've got to make

21:15

this a safe place?

21:18

Absolutely. And so it goes back

21:18

to what you what you said Jude,

21:23

earlier in your in your opening

21:23

story, is that the biggest

21:28

challenge for bringing about

21:28

transformation and growth in in

21:34

our schools that are still not

21:34

representative, or that are

21:38

still not diverse, is that

21:38

there, there hasn't been an

21:42

ownership of the problem. And so

21:42

until you get to the point where

21:47

you have the leadership say, we

21:47

have to change, we want to

21:52

change, we want to move forward,

21:52

there is room for growth in our

21:56

school, until that happens,

21:56

Graeme, until there is that

21:59

ownership by the leadership to

21:59

say, you know, we've got a great

22:04

school here, but we want to make

22:04

it even greater. In order for us

22:07

to do that we've got to solve

22:07

this challenge that we have,

22:11

without starting there - owning

22:11

the problem owning the

22:14

challenge, maybe let's not use

22:14

the word problem, you know, but

22:17

owning the challenge, you're not

22:17

gonna get anywhere. So you own

22:21

the challenge. And then you say,

22:21

Okay, how do we start with who

22:25

we have, because the biggest

22:25

stumbling block in bringing

22:29

about a transformative, diverse

22:29

environment, is what you already

22:35

have, you know this in

22:35

everything. If you want to bring

22:39

about change, you've got to

22:39

start with, you gotta start with

22:42

what you have inside. And until

22:42

you have addressed that with the

22:47

people that are already there,

22:47

to say, we've got to think about

22:51

how how we are integrating it

22:51

and bringing those

22:54

underrepresented groups in and

22:54

our current system, making sure

22:59

that their voices are heard, for

22:59

example, making sure that they

23:02

are not just tokens, people that

23:02

would point to to say, No, we

23:06

have a black teacher, there he

23:06

is, you know, and but actually,

23:10

that we are able that black

23:10

parents, black staff, they are

23:15

integral part of, of changing

23:15

the institution from the inside

23:20

out, is a big part of that. And now some people might think,

23:22

okay, but now, isn't that

23:27

affirmative action or BEE? You

23:27

know, aren't we now favoring

23:33

black people over white people?

23:33

And my answer to that is, yes.

23:39

Yes, you are, that you have to.

23:39

That's the whole point of the

23:42

story. If you've got 50 People

23:42

in the staff room, and 48 of

23:46

them are white, you've got to do

23:46

something proactive, deliberate,

23:51

conscious, and intentional, to

23:51

redress that it's not going to

23:55

happen naturally. It's been 25

23:55

years, and it hasn't happened

24:00

yet in your school. So So you

24:00

know, you're fooling yourself to

24:04

say it will just happen by

24:04

itself. We've got to be

24:08

deliberate. Does that mean we'll

24:08

have to be deliberate forever?

24:12

No, we swing the pendulum across

24:12

to the other side. We work hard

24:18

to redress the balance, then

24:18

hopefully, and this is the goal,

24:23

right? We then find that

24:23

balance. And then a balance

24:27

exists where the next generation

24:27

of children who come through the

24:31

school, I'm not even thinking

24:31

about the representation because

24:36

it's just clear and obvious and

24:36

natural and beautiful.

24:38

Absolutely. At but we do have to

24:38

address the elephant in the room

24:43

for us in a South African

24:43

context that we actually dealing

24:47

with also a national psyche that

24:47

we've inherited through our

24:53

history where we we as whether

24:53

we are black, white, Indian

24:58

colored, you know, there's

24:58

preference for whiteness,

25:01

because of, of how we're raised.

25:01

And so when people say, there

25:07

are no qualified black teachers,

25:07

that actually voicing a

25:12

preference, where white teachers

25:12

are automatically seen as

25:16

qualified, as black teachers

25:16

have to prove they're qualified.

25:20

And that is one of the biggest

25:20

hurdles that we also have to

25:24

deal with, you have an example about that. I was just gonna say I, this is

25:26

something, you know, an

25:30

experience that that I had, we

25:30

at one of the schools I'm

25:34

involved in we, many years ago,

25:34

we set out on a strategy to do

25:38

exactly what we talking about

25:38

bring diversity into the

25:42

classroom, we sold it to the

25:42

parents, not just as a ticking a

25:47

checkbox of diversity. But we

25:47

said, this is the experience we

25:52

want to give your children, we

25:52

want to give your children and

25:55

experience of inclusivity and

25:55

representation and diversity.

25:58

And everybody thought this is

25:58

amazing, thank you. And they

26:01

came up to the board and they

26:01

said, We love this and we love

26:04

the way you going about it, we

26:04

support it, except, and when

26:08

somebody starts to whisper, then

26:08

you know, they're getting

26:11

serious, you know, they're

26:11

pulling it to the side. Except,

26:14

please, when you're looking for

26:14

black teachers, of course, you

26:17

can bring them into the Zulu

26:17

class, and, you know, maybe

26:20

bring them into geography and

26:20

even history would be a great

26:24

place to hear the black voices.

26:24

But please don't bring in black

26:27

maths and science teachers.

26:27

Those subjects are two

26:31

important. Now both said, here's

26:31

the key - those were black

26:34

parents, now, rich black

26:34

parents. And I think I think

26:38

your point earlier is important.

26:38

This is as much socio economic

26:42

as it is cultural at the moment.

26:42

But the this literally I'm

26:47

quoting now, the parents said to

26:47

me, a black parents said to me,

26:51

I don't pay these private school

26:51

fees for my children to be

26:57

taught maths by a black person.

26:57

There, I mean, my jaw dropped to

27:01

the floor. I don't know if

27:01

you've experienced anything like

27:05

that. And and I mean, I'm not I'm not

27:06

laughing because it's funny.

27:10

Yeah, if I don't laugh, I'm

27:10

going to cry, right. And that's

27:13

that the reality of what our

27:13

history has done to us as a

27:19

country, and not just as a

27:19

country, but as the world. And

27:24

so this, this is not unique to

27:24

South Africa. But I think this

27:27

is also very important point

27:27

out. But what is unique about

27:31

the South African context is

27:31

that you have a majority black

27:34

society, that was very much

27:34

brainwashed in this way of

27:40

thinking that white is better.

27:40

And so that is one of the issues

27:44

that we have to also accept. And

27:44

so having said that, yes,

27:49

methods sides are important, but

27:49

I they are, they're not

27:55

excellent, brilliant, amazing

27:55

math and science, black

27:58

teachers. And my answer is, they

27:58

are there. They are there. But

28:02

they might not want to come to

28:02

your school, because that's the

28:05

sentiment that's existing in

28:05

your school. And so how are you

28:09

going to change that? So that

28:09

they can they want to come to

28:13

your school, that your school

28:13

becomes a school of choice for

28:17

any type of educator that is out

28:17

there qualified, and wants to

28:22

add value, that's the that's the

28:22

job of leadership. That's the

28:25

job of parents. That's the job

28:25

of the governing bodies. And so

28:29

those three groups need to

28:29

proactively work together to

28:36

actually create an environment.

28:36

And so before you even get to

28:39

hiring, you get to bring in the

28:39

teachers, get your house in

28:43

order, speak about what you want

28:43

to do, what you want to achieve,

28:47

what kind of a school

28:47

environment we want to create.

28:50

And then as you embrace that

28:50

philosophy, and that way of

28:55

thinking, you think about what

28:55

are some of the practices that

28:58

are going to be important for us

28:58

as a school as an institution?

29:02

What does inclusive inclusion

29:02

look like for us? What are the

29:06

things we don't do in this

29:06

environment that exclude others?

29:10

And so you start by creating

29:10

that environment first, before

29:14

you invite the most talented,

29:14

the most gifted teachers of any

29:20

race and gender and background

29:20

into an environment because if

29:23

you invite them in into a toxic

29:23

one, you're going to lose them.

29:27

And so you're goin g to keep

29:27

having this tense tank kind of a

29:30

situation. Buhle you and I are very

29:31

passionate about this, this

29:35

topic. And I've suddenly

29:35

realized we don't even know if

29:38

Jude is still here. Yeah, and

29:38

we've just been talking to each

29:43

other. I told her that she is

29:43

but J ude, I know that your

29:47

passion in life and certainly in

29:47

this podcast is about like

29:52

practical takeaways, right? So

29:52

I'm guessing that's where you

29:55

want us to go next, but I'm

29:55

gonna let you actually tell us

29:58

that that's what you want us to say. I think this conversation is is

29:59

a great one to be having. And I

30:06

think what we're learning is

30:06

that we have to be intentional

30:10

about these conversations.

30:10

They're uncomfortable there that

30:14

doesn't change things overnight,

30:14

but during the conversations

30:18

that we have to be having, and I

30:18

think that you've given us

30:21

parents, teachers leadership, so

30:21

a lot to think about, but yes,

30:26

to, to close this conversation

30:26

of, I would just like to close

30:32

off by just asking both of you,

30:32

what are the next steps, the

30:37

first steps for us as parents

30:37

for the schools, Buhle, you did

30:41

give some insights into that

30:41

now, but just that very first

30:45

step for us to take, if we could

30:45

finish off with that, and really

30:48

appreciate it. First step that I already mentioned, is

30:49

really about owning the

30:53

challenge. On the challenge,

30:53

say, this is a challenge that we

30:57

have, be honest with yourself,

30:57

be honest with with where you

31:00

find yourself, owning the

31:00

challenge doesn't mean that you

31:04

know, your whole history and all

31:04

the amazing accolades, and all

31:08

the things that you have done

31:08

are nullified, it just says, in

31:14

terms of this area, we can do

31:14

better, and we want to do

31:18

better. And we are going to do

31:18

the work in order to make sure

31:23

that we do better. And so until

31:23

that happens, we can talk until

31:27

we're blue in the face arguments

31:27

are going to be about there are

31:30

not enough to this, there's not

31:30

enough of that and, and all of

31:34

these other things are going to

31:34

come to own the challenge.

31:37

Yep. And then I would say in

31:37

terms of owning the challenge,

31:41

let's frame diversity not as a

31:41

problem to be solved, but as an

31:47

ideal to be gained. In other

31:47

words, I didn't want my girls to

31:53

go to a school where

31:53

representation of diversity was

31:57

normal, so that I could check,

31:57

tick a diversity checkbox and

32:02

tell myself I was being a good

32:02

South African, I wanted them to

32:06

go that to that kind of school,

32:06

because I genuinely believe it

32:10

will make them better people, I

32:10

genuinely believe that diversity

32:15

is at the root of resilience.

32:15

Diversity is at the root of

32:19

creativity, diversity is at the

32:19

root of innovation. Diversity is

32:24

at the root of empathy.

32:24

Diversity is at the root of most

32:28

of the things I think are

32:28

important for the future of

32:32

work, and for the making of good

32:32

human beings. And so you commit

32:39

yourself to diversity, not so

32:39

that you don't get into trouble

32:43

with the social justice

32:43

warriors, and the, you know, the

32:47

politicians and so on, you

32:47

commit to it, because you

32:50

believe in it, and you believe

32:50

that it makes a better world.

32:54

And if you share that

32:54

commitment, then and you then

32:57

you take what what Buhle, says

32:57

that you you share your

33:02

commitment to that and you own

33:02

the fact that you are not there

33:05

yet. You may be you publish the

33:05

school's percentages, in terms

33:12

of racial classifications of

33:12

students and teachers, and then

33:16

publish a goal that you want to

33:16

set for five years from now. And

33:21

you track yourself every year.

33:21

And you you keep being

33:24

embarrassed when it's not good

33:24

enough. I agree Buhle, that's

33:27

the starting point. I think that

33:27

the second, the second thing is

33:31

about the psychological safety,

33:31

of creating a place where people

33:35

can talk about this, even if the

33:35

things we have to say is we're

33:40

not where we want to be. So

33:40

psychological safety is not

33:43

about getting everybody to say

33:43

we're doing as well as we can

33:47

and don't anybody comment, but

33:47

how would we do that? What are

33:51

some tips and tricks we can give

33:51

people just very quickly to make

33:54

it safe, especially for

33:54

underrepresented groups to have

33:58

a voice lead from the front. And so in

34:00

terms of having the courageous

34:03

conversations, so lead from the

34:03

front as leaders, wide voices,

34:07

strong voices, not voices that

34:07

are going to pacify, you know,

34:12

the status quo. And so what

34:12

often happens is that SGB, you

34:15

know, as SGB boards are filled

34:15

with people who don't have

34:20

opinions, and who don't shake

34:20

the, you know, the status quo.

34:24

So invite people who actually

34:24

are going to add value, and and

34:27

then draft a plan, work on a

34:27

plan to actually make it happen.

34:33

Celebrate whatever wins you get,

34:33

because each small step in the

34:38

right direction is a step in the

34:38

right direction, however small

34:42

that step is, and when we

34:42

instead of getting defensive,

34:47

because we're not where we

34:47

should be, and we get defensive.

34:51

If people point that out. We

34:51

celebrate the small steps and

34:55

recognize there's more work to

34:55

be done. And I think if you

34:58

build that kind of environment

34:58

You will discover that there are

35:01

people who want to come along

35:01

with the journey who want to

35:05

help you. And when you invite

35:05

underrepresented groups to come

35:09

and join you, if they can see

35:09

there's a history of a place

35:13

that wants to do the right

35:13

thing. You might be amazed to

35:16

discover that there are a lot of

35:16

people who will actually sign up

35:21

for the jobs you've got

35:21

available, and you'll be able to

35:23

change quickly. Graeme and Buhle, what a

35:25

privilege it is to work with you

35:28

both, I really am so grateful

35:28

for your wisdom and your

35:32

insights and just the impact

35:32

that you have on on my life and

35:36

our family's life. So thank you

35:36

for sharing today with the

35:39

future smart parent community. I

35:39

truly am grateful for this

35:43

conversation as a start, and we

35:43

look forward to many more as we

35:46

continue to have this

35:46

conversation. Thanks, guys.

35:48

Thanks. Take care. Thanks for

35:48

listening. If you enjoyed this

35:53

episode, and you'd like to help

35:53

support the future smart parent

35:56

podcast, please share it with

35:56

others post about it on social

36:00

media, or leave a rating and

36:00

review. To catch all the latest

36:04

from me. You can follow us on

36:04

Instagram at future smart parent

36:08

or join our private Facebook

36:08

group. Thanks again and I'll see

36:12

you next time.