0:00

Welcome to the future

0:00

smart parent podcast. A place

0:03

where my mom explores how to

0:03

help us kids develop a new set

0:07

of skills we need to face the

0:07

future with confidence.

0:11

And I'm Jude Foulston, an

0:11

introverted mom trying my best

0:14

to raise kids who are happy and

0:14

confident kids who embrace all

0:18

that makes them unique, while

0:18

preparing them for an exciting

0:21

future that really looks nothing

0:21

like the world we grew up in. I

0:25

believe there's a whole set of

0:25

skills that our kids aren't

0:28

being taught, these skills will

0:28

be critical for them to develop

0:31

in order to thrive in the

0:31

future. It's up to us as parents

0:35

to help them develop these

0:35

skills. The future smart parent

0:38

podcast provides resources for

0:38

parents and kids who want to be

0:42

ready for all the ways in which

0:42

the future is going to be

0:44

different from today, we will

0:44

explore this future together

0:48

bringing insights from top

0:48

futurists resources from smart

0:52

people working on making our

0:52

lives better, and most

0:55

importantly, stories of parents

0:55

who are parenting a little

0:58

differently, yet very much

0:58

intentionally for a changing

1:01

world. So join me as we explore

1:01

how we can be future smart

1:05

parents raising future smart

1:05

kids.

1:13

Too, today, I had the real

1:13

privilege of speaking with

1:16

Christie from the chat on the

1:16

topic of the changing gender

1:19

landscape. I think what I love the most

1:21

from this conversation is just

1:23

the way Christy helps us parents

1:23

think about this sometimes

1:27

overwhelming topic, she doesn't

1:27

come in with all the answers,

1:31

but rather helps us understand

1:31

this changing landscape.

1:34

Acknowledging the many

1:34

complexities on the subject.

1:38

This conversation really was yet

1:38

another reminder to me as a

1:42

parent of the fundamental job,

1:42

we have to just love our

1:46

children, and provide them with

1:46

the safe space that they need.

1:50

And of course, to have these

1:50

sorts of conversations with them

1:54

and with each other. Christina

1:54

is a speaker, teacher,

1:58

researcher, author, wife, and a

1:58

mom to three kids with a passion

2:03

to help cultivate deep

2:03

connections, facilitate healthy

2:06

dialogue, and help raise a

2:06

generation who are secure in who

2:10

they are and where they are

2:10

going. Welcome, Christy, thank

2:13

you so much for joining us

2:13

today, I am super excited to

2:17

share your research and your

2:17

wisdom on the topic of sort of

2:22

gender and the gender landscape.

2:22

I think it's something that us

2:26

parents, well, I speak for

2:26

myself, quite overwhelming. We

2:31

don't know where to start. It's

2:31

it's not something that's almost

2:35

familiar to us. And it's it's

2:35

such a big thing in our kids and

2:40

our teenagers lives. So welcome.

2:40

And thank you for for joining

2:44

us. Thank you for having me.

2:48

Thank you, and thanks for the

2:48

work that you're doing goodness.

2:52

It's an absolute pleasure.

2:52

Thanks for having me. And so

2:56

this is what has happened is

2:56

there's been this there's been

2:59

this huge shift, there's been

2:59

this huge, it's actually comes

3:03

down to worldviews it comes down

3:03

to, you know, most and actually,

3:09

it's quite interesting when you

3:09

look at the worldviews because

3:11

the two worldviews at play are

3:11

what we call a binary worldview,

3:15

and then what we call a

3:15

dualistic worldview. So the

3:17

binary worldview is, if I'm

3:17

biologically female, then I'm a

3:21

woman. That's yeah, that's what

3:21

it is. And honestly, this, this

3:24

view, head is still held by the

3:24

vast majority of the world. But

3:30

what is gaining what has gained

3:30

so much traction? And what is

3:34

the kind of the loudest voice

3:34

the most predominant voice

3:37

specially on social media, and

3:37

with teenagers right now is is

3:42

based on something called a

3:42

dualistic worldview, where our

3:45

bodies and our our person are

3:45

two separate things. And your

3:52

gender resides in your person,

3:52

not in your body. So those are

3:56

kind of and so this is the

3:56

predominant worldview behind the

4:00

transgender movement behind the

4:00

the thoughts, the view that

4:06

gender is, is something it's an

4:06

identity within us, that

4:12

sometimes is out of concurrency

4:12

with our biological body. So

4:17

that's kind of what's happened. And so I would I don't

4:19

understand it or find difficult

4:25

to understand is, where has this

4:25

come from? Because obviously,

4:29

this is not a new thing. We

4:29

haven't we don't have have

4:34

people who just in the last 10

4:34

years, like this increase of, of

4:39

transgender or, or non binary

4:39

humans, how has it unfolded and

4:47

folded so rapidly? Is it social

4:47

media? Is it just kind of a new

4:54

understanding, like what are

4:54

your thoughts on that?

4:58

Yeah, that's such a good

4:58

question. And that is the That

5:00

is the question right now is how

5:00

did this happen so fast? How did

5:04

something that we believed for

5:04

so long, just get just unraveled

5:08

so quickly and something so

5:08

completely different takes

5:11

place. So just to give you,

5:11

there's so many statistics, but

5:15

just to give you one statistic

5:15

in the UK between 22,008 and

5:20

2018, there was a 3000, sorry, a

5:20

4,033% increase in specifically

5:28

teenagers seeking transgender

5:28

treatment. And so this is the

5:32

key. The key is that the massive

5:32

jump has been in one

5:36

demographic. And this is what is

5:36

interesting. So So historically,

5:42

the demographic with the most

5:42

transgender people was middle

5:45

aged men. So these would be

5:45

people who, who were who had

5:52

gender dysphoria, for those of

5:52

you who are not familiar with

5:55

the term gender dysphoria, that

5:55

is a deep psychological pain

6:00

coming from this feeling that my

6:00

body and the gender I believe I

6:05

am do not match up. It's a it's

6:05

a, a psychological term, and

6:12

it's a diagnosable condition.

6:12

So, so historically, men would

6:19

would kind of have this from

6:19

very early on, because gender

6:21

dysphoria is starts very early

6:21

about the age of five, and

6:26

persists through someone's life.

6:26

And then these these men would

6:30

then by the time they reach

6:30

middle age would be

6:32

cross-dressing drag queens, you

6:32

know, but predominantly, that

6:36

one demographic, we've seen no

6:36

increase in that demographic

6:40

over these last few years,

6:40

nothing, it stayed the same. The

6:43

massive, massive jump has been

6:43

in our teens, and predominantly

6:48

upper middle class teens. So

6:48

from all wealthy homes,

6:53

predominantly good, and

6:53

predominantly girls, the vast

6:56

majority of the we do have many

6:56

transgender boys, the vast

7:00

majority is girls. So Abigail

7:00

Shire wrote this book called

7:04

irreversible damage, and she was

7:04

one of the people saying, kind

7:07

of why this demographic? Why are

7:07

these girls and you've already

7:11

said some of the reasons but

7:11

some of the reasons that that

7:14

researchers and and experts are

7:14

putting forward is, the first

7:18

one is that this generation is

7:18

in deep psychological pain. Some

7:23

of the other statistics we're

7:23

seeing is that we're seeing,

7:26

we've seen almost like a 200%

7:26

increase in self harm over the

7:30

last five to 10 years, in

7:30

preteen girls, so we're seeing

7:34

lots of self harm, we're seeing

7:34

lots of anxiety, we're seeing

7:37

lots of depression, lots of body

7:37

shame, those kinds of things. So

7:41

this group of people these,

7:41

these preteen girls are in pain,

7:47

they suffering and so with, with

7:47

the access of social media, and

7:52

and the transgender movement,

7:52

it's often that, that these

7:58

girls have developed what is now

7:58

called sudden onset gender

8:02

dysphoria, where they suddenly

8:02

feel uncomfortable in their

8:06

bodies they never have before.

8:06

And, and so these girls then

8:11

asked are kind of, as you say,

8:11

questioning, choosing to be non

8:17

binary choosing to be trans,

8:17

almost because they feel like

8:23

this must be what's wrong with

8:23

me. If I feel this uncomfortable

8:26

in my body, I think I read that book, I was

8:28

trying to remember the name and

8:31

the author, it was a book of

8:31

saying because of how social

8:38

media is playing such a big role

8:38

in it these girls in particular

8:42

are kind of seeing this perfect

8:42

landscape out there of how they

8:46

are supposed to be as as girls,

8:46

and they can almost get there

8:52

and they can't have this perfect

8:52

life and so that almost just

8:57

escaping that and saying okay,

8:57

well that's not me so I must be

9:01

something else. Is that is that

9:01

the gist of it? Well,

9:05

that is one of the that is one

9:05

Edexcel Shara does mention that

9:09

in a book, and others have is

9:09

this thing is if now if I don't

9:13

meet the criteria of the perfect

9:13

girl, then there must be then

9:20

then I can't be a girl then then

9:20

and, and and also, there's

9:25

there's so much to this. Also,

9:25

because a lot of this generation

9:29

of girls have grown up under

9:29

helicopter and snowplow parents,

9:33

they are not used to going

9:33

through hard things. And so when

9:36

they get to what is actually the

9:36

hardest time of your life, I

9:40

honestly believe 12 to 15 Must

9:40

be the hardest time of life.

9:46

They don't have the resilience

9:46

and the grit to just work

9:48

through. Not I mean most 12 to

9:48

14 year olds go through times

9:52

where they don't like their body

9:52

where they feel like there's

9:54

something wrong with them where

9:54

they feel like they don't

9:56

belong, where they wish they

9:56

were someone else. And now this

10:01

alternative has been presented

10:01

to them and saying, Well, maybe

10:04

it's because of this, maybe you

10:04

should do this. And this is

10:06

just, this is one of the reasons

10:06

that's being put forward

10:09

specifically for this

10:09

demographic. And then there are

10:13

also other reasons, you know,

10:13

that that are being put forward,

10:17

the fact that the world is a lot

10:17

more accepting now, the world is

10:21

a lot more, is a lot more open

10:21

and a lot more diverse than it

10:26

was. But I think there is a lot

10:26

of concern across the board from

10:31

transgender clinics to, you

10:31

know, the transgender community

10:36

themselves to this massive

10:36

explosion of transgender

10:41

identification very, very early

10:41

in life, because it is such a

10:45

big decision for these children.

10:45

And I'm sure you've seen,

10:50

specifically in the UK, and in

10:50

the states now that they have

10:54

what they call affirmative care

10:54

where they're allowing, you

10:58

know, puberty blockers,

10:58

testosterone injections,

11:03

mastectomy, hysterectomy is for

11:03

teenagers. And so a lot of

11:08

there's a lot of alarm bells

11:08

going off even amongst, you

11:11

know, the transgender community.

11:11

And specifically, those who who

11:16

just believe that a life

11:16

altering decision like this

11:19

should not be made when you're

11:19

this young. But they are going

11:24

through so much. Not I mean, I

11:24

look back at when I was 14, I'm

11:28

very grateful I didn't make any

11:28

life altering decisions, you

11:31

know, I was going through a lot

11:31

of my parents were getting

11:34

divorced, I had a very low self

11:34

esteem, I often felt like I

11:39

didn't belong, I felt

11:39

misunderstood. And so it's not a

11:43

good time to make life altering

11:43

decisions. But then they kind of

11:46

is this other school of thought

11:46

that says, if a child is trans,

11:51

and you don't allow them to

11:51

begin a transitioning process,

11:55

it's very bad for their mental

11:55

health. So that's the other side

11:59

of the argument of No, but we

11:59

should allow our children

12:03

because the, you know, there's

12:03

obviously concerns about anxiety

12:08

and depression and suicide and

12:08

things like that, if children

12:11

are feeling like they are not

12:11

living, as they believe they

12:17

should. So you can imagine. So

12:17

there are so many strong

12:20

arguments for both sides of

12:20

this. But obviously, as a

12:24

parents, a very, very concerning

12:24

thing. You know, there's a guy

12:30

called Scott Nugent's he's a

12:30

transgender man in his 30,

12:35

sorry, he's about 43. Now, and

12:35

he has an organization called

12:39

tre voices, which basically, the

12:39

his organization is trying to

12:45

put a stop to the medical

12:45

transitioning of teenagers.

12:49

Because he, as a 42 year old 43

12:49

year old man who's been through

12:53

medical transitioning, is saying

12:53

that it is such a highly

12:56

experimental surgery, it's such

12:56

a, it's such a hard, you're

13:02

choosing a very hard path when

13:02

you're choosing those for your

13:05

for the rest of your life. And

13:05

you are, is it okay to let our

13:11

children make that decision? You

13:11

know, he talks about the fact

13:14

that when we choose medical,

13:14

transitioning you cutting your

13:17

lifespan by 12 years, in your

13:17

60s, you're gonna have

13:20

osteoporosis and possibly be in

13:20

a wheelchair or using a cane,

13:24

heart issues, lung issues, it's

13:24

going to cost about, he's

13:28

American. So he talks about the

13:28

fact that it's going to cost

13:30

about $1.5 million over the

13:30

course of your life, you're

13:34

going to have ongoing medical

13:34

and psychological care, you

13:38

know, and is this something that

13:38

a 12 year old is ready to

13:42

decide, is the question that he

13:42

has.

13:45

I mean, we know we know from

13:45

sort of neuroscience that the

13:49

brain is nowhere close to being

13:49

fully developed with the

13:55

decision making part of the

13:55

brain it's, it's just such a big

14:00

thing for us as the parents to

14:00

get our heads around and learn

14:04

of course, the kids and I mean,

14:04

I know I've got a 12 year old

14:08

daughter, and just trying to

14:08

navigate the conversations that

14:13

we're starting to have with her.

14:13

Just in general stuff just you

14:18

know, nothing nothing big like

14:18

this yet. It's It's

14:23

overwhelming. So I mean, where

14:23

do you ask his parents even

14:29

begin? Yeah, I suppose it's

14:29

worth understanding. But I mean,

14:34

as you've just shown this, these

14:34

these opposite views, where do

14:41

we where do we begin? I think it's such a good

14:43

question. And again, different,

14:48

different families, different

14:48

speakers, different people will

14:51

have different ideas, but my my

14:51

view, just kind of from my

14:55

research from my conversations

14:55

is don't start to soon let our

15:02

boys be boys and girls be girls

15:02

as they grow up. I'm not a fan

15:06

or an advocate of gender neutral

15:06

parenting, I think, you know,

15:10

just calling boys boys calling

15:10

girls, girls. And even Scott

15:14

Nugent says this, he, he's the

15:14

guy that I just spoke about. He

15:18

says his, his take on what he

15:18

what he's doing with his own

15:22

sons is he's saying to his sons,

15:22

you're going to be boys until

15:26

you're 18. And then if after

15:26

that, you decide that you want

15:31

to transition, I will call you

15:31

whatever you want as an adult.

15:36

So I think it's important that

15:36

we, we just keep things simple

15:40

as they grow up boys, girls,

15:40

because the vast majority of us

15:46

will be binary. And the

15:46

statistics around this is a very

15:52

new field of science. So So data

15:52

is coming out and changing all

15:55

the time. But it's something

15:55

like 80 to 90% of teenagers who

16:00

question their gender, or go

16:00

through some kind of kind of

16:05

gender discomfort or, or they

16:05

become trans will revert to

16:10

their birth gender, by the time

16:10

they're adults, a vast majority.

16:13

So, so I think, just to

16:13

remembering that the vast

16:18

majority of us, if we are born,

16:18

female, we will grow up and we

16:22

will live as woman. And so keep

16:22

it simple when they small,

16:25

affirm their bodies as good, a

16:25

firm gender as good make sure

16:30

our girls know that anything is

16:30

possible for them, that it's not

16:33

a handicap to be a female. And

16:33

then on the other side,

16:37

actually, I've developed a bit

16:37

of a frustration on behalf of

16:42

the boys that I spend a lot I

16:42

spent a lot of time with a group

16:45

of 15 year old boys that are

16:45

that I teach once a week about

16:49

how badly they treated by girls,

16:49

and how toxic and masculinity

16:55

seem to not be married together.

16:55

That to be masculine is toxic.

16:58

So let's affirm our boys

16:58

masculinity. Masculinity is

17:02

wonderful. Healthy masculinity,

17:02

protectiveness, strength,

17:07

courage, innovation, let's

17:07

affirm gender as a good thing.

17:13

So I think that's the first

17:13

thing is when they when they're

17:15

young, keep it simple, and then

17:15

answer their questions. You

17:19

know, this will it as you say,

17:19

this is changing very fast. It's

17:23

around us. When my son was about

17:23

nine, he came to me and asked me

17:26

what a gender nonconformist was

17:26

because he had seen an interview

17:30

on a show on kids YouTube called

17:30

Hi, her kids. And so I did, I

17:35

answered his question. And you

17:35

don't. And all of us have a

17:38

bias, right? We have a bias one

17:38

way or the other. So we try not

17:41

to bring in our bias, we try and

17:41

answer factually, this is what

17:45

this person believes this is how

17:45

they living. And we always speak

17:50

about people with compassion and

17:50

love. Whether you whatever your

17:54

worldview is, because you're going to have a worldview, right? We all do. That we that

17:56

we are loving around or people.

18:01

The other thing is, obviously,

18:01

to avoid stereotypes with our

18:05

kids. Because a lot of the time

18:05

and you said it earlier, is if

18:09

we have a girl who does not want

18:09

to make tic tock videos with her

18:16

friend doing little dances, but

18:16

we'd rather be gaming with with

18:20

the boys. If we if we go oh my

18:20

gosh, she must be trans or she

18:25

must be gay. That's unhelpful.

18:25

Yeah, she just likes gaming,

18:28

like gaming, you know, let our

18:28

children like what they like let

18:31

them have freedom to express

18:31

themselves, you know. And so

18:35

stereotypes. I mean, the the

18:35

traditional ones are boys who

18:38

are dancers, girls who like

18:38

rugby, you know, those kinds of

18:41

things, but, but just allow our

18:41

children to express themselves

18:45

because it's because as as great

18:45

as this new generation is, and

18:50

as much as they want to pull

18:50

labels and boxes apart. They do

18:54

label themselves and each other

18:54

very quickly.

18:59

Sorry, I want to go back to when

18:59

you were saying to, to kind of

19:04

avoid the amount of the words

19:04

right to avoid the gender

19:08

neutral parenting, because it

19:08

comes into this. As I understand

19:14

you're not saying it's not not

19:14

giving boys a doll to play with

19:21

because because a boy will grow

19:21

up to be a maybe a parent or a

19:27

loving uncle or a nurturer. So

19:27

we're not saying you don't give

19:31

your your boys dolls, or is that

19:31

what you're saying? Because

19:36

because I do get confused. I've

19:36

always, you know, and as you

19:41

say, if my daughter wants to go

19:41

gaming with a group of boys

19:45

because she loves gaming because

19:45

she loves being around them.

19:49

I'll celebrate that, but we

19:49

don't look at that as any

19:52

different to you know, it's just

19:52

a strip socializing. Yeah, so

19:59

you can You just helped me kind

19:59

of unpack that a little bit.

20:02

Sorry, I should have clarified.

20:02

So what gender neutral parenting

20:05

is, this is kind of part of the

20:05

transgender movement is, when a

20:09

child is born, you don't use

20:09

male or female pronouns to talk

20:13

to them or about them. Okay? So

20:13

this is a school of thought,

20:18

where we don't call if a child

20:18

is born with a penis, we don't

20:22

call them a boy, or the girl is

20:22

born in a female body, we don't

20:27

call her girl. So this is, this

20:27

is kind of one still quite

20:32

radical school of thought, but

20:32

they are a lot of the receiving

20:35

are celebrities, I think Celine

20:35

Dion came out with a gender

20:38

neutral, you know, range of

20:38

clothes, we've seen celebrities

20:43

do it from time to time. And

20:43

it's this idea of not putting

20:48

gender onto a child until they

20:48

decide what they want to be.

20:53

Okay, I believe this is

20:53

confusing for children. It's not

20:56

something but but again, you

20:56

need to do what's right for your

20:59

family. But I think, just keep

20:59

it simple. Let boys be boys and

21:05

girls be girls. And then if you

21:05

see an incongruency in your

21:09

child, then you know you can you

21:09

can work with that. And but the

21:14

vast majority, as I said

21:14

earlier, is the vast majority of

21:18

teenagers, or, you know, early,

21:18

late teens, early 20s, people

21:23

who identify as trans, don't

21:23

have gender dysphoria at all.

21:27

You know, the diagnosed

21:27

psychological condition is a

21:32

word we hear thrown around a

21:32

lot, but it's kind of more

21:37

something that's happened later

21:37

in life and come out of a

21:39

different set of circumstances.

21:39

Yeah, so that's what I that's

21:43

what I mean by that. And, yeah,

21:43

so I definitely, again, with the

21:47

avoiding stereotypes, let our

21:47

children choose their toys, and

21:51

choose the sports they like the

21:51

games they like, without boxing

21:56

them into girls do those boys do

21:56

that? I think that's, that's

22:01

quite helpful. And then the

22:01

other thing that I think is

22:04

important is talk about this

22:04

issue with your children.

22:08

Because as they especially as

22:08

they grow, and as they start to

22:12

become exposed to social media,

22:12

because it is all over social

22:16

media. And as I tell teenagers,

22:16

social media influencers are

22:21

called influencers, because they

22:21

are there to influence you. They

22:25

are not called social media,

22:25

facts givers, they have a bias,

22:29

they have a an agenda, they,

22:29

they they have a they have a

22:32

purpose for what they're doing.

22:32

And whatever their purpose is,

22:36

we need to, we need to be making

22:36

sure that in our homes, we are

22:39

having conversations that

22:39

balance out some of the stuff

22:43

that they're hearing around, and

22:43

also create a create a safe

22:46

environment where they can make

22:46

sense of it, think critically

22:50

and come to their own

22:50

conclusions. Because a lot of

22:54

you know a lot of these girls in

22:54

these studies that chose to

22:58

become trans did it after

22:58

increased social media exposure,

23:04

or did it after their friends

23:04

died, because this is the other

23:06

thing is that girls are such

23:06

pack animals, we do things. We

23:10

do things. But so so I would say

23:10

lots of space for connection and

23:16

conversation in your homes, and

23:16

limiting social media time for

23:22

your children, limiting the

23:22

amount of time those other

23:27

external voices are shaping the

23:27

neuro pathways. And alarming

23:32

statistic I read not so long ago

23:32

was that the average teenager

23:35

spends between six and nine

23:35

hours a day online. But the most

23:39

alarming part for me was that

23:39

the average teenager spends less

23:42

than 45 minutes a day with their

23:42

family. So are they getting

23:46

good, healthy, balanced

23:46

information from people who love

23:51

them and are invested in their

23:51

future to make their decisions,

23:54

you know, we want to we want our

23:54

homes to be loving, safe places

23:58

where even when our children

23:58

make choices that may not line

24:01

up with our views or our values,

24:01

or whatever they still feel

24:05

unconditionally loved, they

24:05

still know that we are there for

24:09

them, we love them. You know, I

24:09

I read a great article the other

24:15

day of of that was basically

24:15

what to do if your child comes

24:20

out to you. And it was called, I

24:20

love you. And then there was a

24:25

bats beauty and it was crossed

24:25

out. So if your child comes and

24:30

says something's, whatever,

24:30

whatever it is, and we're

24:33

talking about transgender so

24:33

your child says, I feel like I'm

24:37

trans. You just throw your arms

24:37

around them and you say I love

24:41

you. That's your starting point.

24:41

That's always your starting

24:44

point. Not I love you but this

24:44

is not right. I love you, but

24:49

you can't do this. And of course

24:49

you do want to have those

24:53

conversations you want to you do

24:53

want to balance that information

24:55

that they're getting. Help them

24:55

make a good future focus choice.

25:01

But like, you know, I was

25:01

listening to one, one man

25:05

interviewed, he was a single

25:05

dad. And he said, the last thing

25:09

we want is to lose our kids to

25:09

the internet. And just happens.

25:15

This happens so often if a child

25:15

is struggling with their gender

25:19

identity, and their parents come

25:19

hot and hard and, and, like,

25:24

bring shame, bring judgment,

25:24

that child then goes and finds

25:28

an online family who will affirm

25:28

Yeah, and there's plenty,

25:32

plenty, plenty, plenty of

25:32

people, who would they will find

25:35

online, who will not give them

25:35

balanced information, who will

25:37

not love them and challenge them

25:37

and, you know, help them make

25:43

hard choices, they will just

25:43

affirm a firmer, firmer, firmer

25:45

firm. So we don't want that we

25:45

want to make sure that our kids

25:50

in our homes feel loved and but

25:50

at the same time, that we

25:55

protect them, and that they can

25:55

process that.

25:59

For me, that's been the biggest

25:59

take one of the biggest

26:02

takeaways from this conversation

26:02

is, is the fact that as parents,

26:08

it's our role to bring that

26:08

balance to our kids. And I've,

26:13

in our family, we've always, I

26:13

suppose, beamed to being so

26:20

aware of affirming and accepting

26:20

and, you know, teaching our kids

26:25

to be accepting and that they

26:25

are different ways and that sort

26:30

of thing. But perhaps what we

26:30

haven't been getting right.

26:35

Maybe that's too harsh, but what

26:35

we can focus on is actually just

26:39

having those conversations and

26:39

reminding them of who they are,

26:43

and affirming them in this this

26:43

big landscape that they find

26:49

themselves. For me, that's,

26:49

that's been great. I got

26:54

Yeah, I think it's so important

26:54

because, you know, the, the

26:58

transgender movement, and and

26:58

the, the way that this

27:02

generation has embraced it, is

27:02

based in love and acceptance,

27:07

it's based in, we want everyone

27:07

to have a place we want everyone

27:11

to, to feel like they are loved

27:11

and honored and belong. And that

27:15

is so so good. But at the same

27:15

time, what does love look like?

27:21

Does love is not always

27:21

affirming. Love is also

27:25

sometimes telling a child, okay,

27:25

here's the hard truth of if you

27:29

choose that, this is what it

27:29

looks like. And here's some of

27:33

the medical stuff. Here's some,

27:33

okay, and then thinking globally

27:38

thinking, Okay, what what is

27:38

happening? You know, when when

27:41

we decide on on a specific

27:41

worldview, what is how does that

27:45

work out in the world? You know,

27:45

a good one to talk about with

27:49

your kids is sports. You know,

27:49

the transgender movement is

27:52

playing out in sports at the

27:52

moment, and it's really

27:54

interesting to see, you know,

27:54

and it's great to help them

28:00

think globally think think What

28:00

about rats, and a lot of the

28:05

conversation at the moment is I

28:05

don't know if you saw earlier

28:08

this year, Lea Thomas, who was a

28:08

swimmer in the US is

28:13

transitioned male to female and

28:13

then she won, you know, she she

28:17

creamed the competition. And it

28:17

a couple days later, her her

28:21

middle was taken away and given

28:21

to the second place, person, and

28:25

fina, the world governing body

28:25

of swimming made a ruling that

28:29

female to male trying to

28:29

transgender people could not

28:33

compete in female races. And so

28:33

there's a lot of stuff to think

28:37

about. And and you know, there's

28:37

two sides of that as well. Like,

28:40

Leah Thomas is a transgender

28:40

person who and when you when you

28:44

listen to her speak, she says

28:44

I'm a woman, I I've always been

28:47

a woman, I just want to be my

28:47

authentic self. But at the same

28:50

time, those are her rights. But

28:50

then what about the rights of

28:54

the biological females you have

28:54

shorter legs, haven't had male

29:00

puberty, you know, all of those

29:00

things. So these are really

29:04

really good conversations to

29:04

have with our kids. And then the

29:08

other one as well that's

29:08

happening right now is pronouns.

29:10

I don't know if you've seen a

29:10

lot of the conversations a lot

29:13

of teenagers will have their

29:13

chosen pronouns on their

29:16

Instagram profile. And a school

29:16

in Cape Town recently introduced

29:22

pronoun badges. So whatever your

29:22

chosen pronouns was where you

29:27

wore those badges that people

29:27

knew what to call you. And this

29:30

is a big, again rooted in love

29:30

are rooted in let's make

29:34

transgender people feel included

29:34

belonging all of those things,

29:39

but they kind of what also

29:39

happened there was those who

29:41

refuse to wear them were then

29:41

monitored the targeted,

29:47

marginalized. Yeah, so we on the

29:47

in the way of not marginalizing

29:52

one people group, we marginalize

29:52

another people group. And so

29:57

it's so tricky and these are

29:57

things we need to we need to

29:59

have hash out in in good

29:59

conversation. And this is why

30:03

I've created my my course would

30:03

for schools is let's talk about

30:07

these things. What does it look

30:07

like? Is it? Is it my right to

30:10

choose my pronouns? But, yes,

30:10

but is it also not your rights?

30:19

If, for example, maybe according

30:19

to your religious beliefs, you

30:23

don't believe it's right, do you

30:23

have to call me those? You know,

30:27

there was a case of, of two boys

30:27

in America recently being

30:30

charged with sexual harassment

30:30

for not not agreeing to use

30:34

another child's chosen pronouns.

30:34

So there's lots of complexity to

30:38

what's going on. And I think

30:38

that you really need to talk to

30:42

our kids about get them

30:42

thinking, you know, this is a

30:45

very, this is a very, you can

30:45

have big conversations with this

30:49

generation, you know, you really

30:49

can they really do want to talk

30:52

about things, they're really,

30:52

they're probably way more

30:55

independent thinking than we

30:55

were, which is great. Yeah.

30:58

Right. Which is great. Yeah.

30:58

But, so one of the things is to

31:02

have those conversations with

31:02

your kids, you know, and then

31:06

what I often say. So two things,

31:06

I think, just in terms of

31:11

parenting, as well, is love and

31:11

compassion for other people. So

31:18

yeah, be standing firmly in your

31:18

worldview and knowing that if,

31:22

you know, this is also where

31:22

things get quite tricky is if

31:25

someone holds a binary

31:25

worldview. So that's the

31:29

worldview where my biology

31:29

determines my agenda. They can

31:33

be accused of being bigoted,

31:33

hateful, homophobic, all of

31:37

those things, but, but if that

31:37

is your value, and it is the

31:41

values of many families,

31:41

especially those families with

31:43

religious roots, and faith

31:43

roots, to say to your child, no,

31:49

that's not You're not

31:49

homophobic, unless you are

31:51

hateful towards people, you

31:51

know, so that we, we allow

31:55

children of whatever they will

31:55

use to to be confident in their

31:59

worldviews, but always to be

31:59

loving and compassionate to

32:02

those around them who have

32:02

different views. You know, we

32:05

don't have to, we don't have to

32:05

agree with everything our

32:07

friends say and do to be

32:07

compassionate, to be kind to be

32:11

inclusive. You know, that would

32:11

mean that I can if, for example,

32:16

if if I am a Christian, and

32:16

you're a Muslim, we can't be

32:20

friends. That's just nonsense.

32:20

It's nonsense. And but at the

32:24

moment, that's how this

32:24

conversation feels. So my hope

32:28

is that we can get past that,

32:28

where we can have different

32:32

worldviews around gender, but

32:32

still, you know, bridge those

32:36

things. And I think it's also

32:36

social media that has made this

32:40

conversation so polarized,

32:40

because social media is not

32:44

about healthy debate rights.

32:44

Social media is about arm right

32:48

and you stupid. That's kind of,

32:51

and it's so heightened that that

32:51

you're almost scared to jump

32:55

into a conversation because

32:55

you're going to be slammed down

32:59

and shut down and call terrible

32:59

things because you've got

33:03

alternative views. It is really,

33:03

and I suppose that's, that's

33:07

part of it is is helping and

33:07

teaching our kids how to have

33:10

these these conversations, you

33:10

know, where you're aware of your

33:15

biases, and you're aware that

33:15

other people have different

33:18

worldviews. And as you can learn

33:18

from things that you can unlearn

33:22

certain things. Gosh, it's no

33:22

wonder we all quite overwhelmed,

33:28

there's quite a bit. And I think

33:28

another thing, just in that

33:31

vein, of of love is to remember

33:31

that if if I do hold a binary

33:38

worldview, and my gender is very

33:38

clear to me, I'm a cisgender.

33:41

Man, I've been married for 19

33:41

years, you know, I've never

33:45

suffered with any kind of gender

33:45

incongruency that treat people

33:51

who may have a different view,

33:51

very, very graciously, because

33:55

it's not like we're agreeing on.

33:55

I eat meat and you're vegan, you

33:59

know, it's not, it's not that it

33:59

is someone's identity. You know

34:04

what I mean? It's a big deal.

34:04

It's a big deal. And we might

34:07

not agree on these things. But

34:07

we need to treat each other with

34:11

dignity and respect. Because for

34:11

that person, it is a big deal.

34:14

It's transgender is not just an

34:14

issue. It's not just a movement,

34:20

or whatever, it is an identity

34:20

and we really need to be we need

34:24

to be very careful with our

34:24

words with the way we speak to

34:28

people about people. Because I

34:28

think that's also why it's such

34:33

a such a scary space sometimes,

34:33

like you say, I never comment on

34:39

anything on social media. I just

34:39

I just never do it's, I guess

34:42

it's like, your new puppy is

34:42

very cute. But I just like, go

34:48

there. It's just but yeah, so to

34:48

just be encourage, encourage

34:54

people, our children to live by

34:54

the values live by their

34:56

worldviews, but to be gentle,

34:56

kinda loving towards people

35:01

around them. And then I think

35:01

just lastly, just in terms of

35:04

parenting is are always, and I

35:04

know you also your thing is I

35:08

try and I try and teach my

35:08

children to make future focus

35:13

choices to make. And you know,

35:13

there's this amazing quotes, and

35:18

it's actually from Humans of New

35:18

York, which is a photography

35:21

thing that, you know, Humans of

35:21

New York, have the book and

35:25

there's this picture of this girl sitting in a subway station. And she says, you know,

35:27

people always say Be true to

35:31

yourself. But that's misleading,

35:31

because there's two selves.

35:34

There's your short term self,

35:34

and there's your long term self.

35:37

And if you only choose your

35:37

short term self, your long term

35:40

self will slowly start to decay.

35:40

And so I think this is important

35:46

because our children are growing

35:46

up in a generation that says,

35:48

Follow your heart. If it feels

35:48

good, it must be right. YOLO

35:53

regret nothing, try everything.

35:53

But as saying a teenager's your

35:57

heart is a terrible compass. It

35:57

really, really is. Because our

36:01

hearts are such mixed bags of

36:01

like, good stuff, some not so

36:06

good stuff. So I say to market

36:06

Yeah, 1515. To them now, now's

36:14

not the time for big decisions.

36:14

You know, I want you to have the

36:18

love the care, the support that

36:18

you need, in this time, whatever

36:23

you're going through, whether it

36:23

is gender questioning, whether

36:26

it is you know, you failing at

36:26

academics, and you hate school,

36:33

because you're just not an

36:33

academic or, or you're being

36:36

bullied luck, whatever the issue

36:36

is, I want people to be loved

36:40

and cared for, and are

36:40

teenagers, but I always say to

36:44

them, just just hang on a

36:44

minute. Just take a break. No,

36:47

you know, I think, live live now

36:47

in a way that your future self

36:52

will thank you for, you know.

36:52

And you know, Scott Newton says,

36:57

he says, you know, we never want

36:57

to be called the parents who

37:01

didn't love and support our

37:01

kids. But also at the same time,

37:05

we don't want to be the parent

37:05

with a 25 year old kid who turns

37:09

around and says to us, why did

37:09

you let me do that? I was a 12

37:13

year old kid, or a 14 year old

37:13

kid, you were the adults? You

37:17

were the adults, you know? And

37:17

you just let me do this, you

37:21

knew that I was just a child,

37:21

and you knew I was going through

37:24

stuff. Why did you let me do it.

37:24

So it's a hard balance. You

37:27

know, he talks about Scott

37:27

Nugent talks about the fact that

37:31

children can't see around

37:31

corners yet. And I think it's

37:34

such a great analogy is, is

37:34

children are very much focused

37:38

on their prisons and teams on

37:38

the prisons, they can't actually

37:42

see long term consequences. So

37:42

he says you can't see around

37:45

corners. And as you grow

37:45

corners, even out and you can

37:48

see down the road, when I do

37:48

this, this is where it's going.

37:52

And so that's why I'm and it's

37:52

about the prefrontal cortex,

37:55

right, like you said earlier,

37:55

only fully developed when you're

37:57

26. So we as you get towards

37:57

that, that that landmark brain

38:03

development, and I read amazing

38:03

research as well, that says, you

38:07

only truly know who you are in

38:07

your late 20s, which is amazing.

38:11

And we fought in Korea, when we

38:11

18. And, you know, you choose,

38:15

like, all of these things. And

38:15

yeah, and so I think our role as

38:19

parents is, is to help our

38:19

children hold space and, and

38:23

feel protected, but at the same

38:23

time, be the prefrontal cortex

38:28

for them. While parents,

38:31

I mean, I think that I mean, that's a whole different conversation, but it is really

38:33

finding that balance of not

38:36

being their best friends of

38:36

being their parent, they've got

38:39

enough best friends, as we know,

38:39

they've probably got 10,000

38:42

online friends, and, and a

38:42

handful of parents. Yeah, it

38:50

really is something that we I

38:50

think, as parents need to

38:53

remember, like, we can be the

38:53

heart parents, and we can help

38:59

them see around those corners when necessary. And that comes with

39:01

healthy conversation, right? Not

39:05

just you are not going to do

39:05

this because it's wrong. That

39:08

comes with understanding the

39:08

space, understanding the

39:12

science, doing some good

39:12

research, and allowing your

39:15

children to, to express what

39:15

they feel and to be that's that,

39:20

you know, that safe place where

39:20

they can process at all?

39:24

Well, I suppose and it goes back

39:24

to what you're saying about all

39:27

the influencers on social media,

39:27

you know, as parents need to

39:31

bring the balance and bring that

39:31

to the balanced influence, I

39:36

suppose. And the good news is

39:36

the two kids are

39:40

not just gonna say the good news

39:40

is kids do care what their

39:42

parents think. Sometimes we

39:42

don't think so. But, you know,

39:46

the psychologist needs to do

39:46

more who I follow who I

39:50

absolutely love, and she always

39:50

says, it doesn't seem like it

39:53

but your kids do care what you

39:53

think so, but they can only hear

39:57

what you think if you talk to them. So Yeah, comes back to

39:59

connection. I suppose it might

40:03

not look exactly what you want

40:03

it to look like or have like an

40:06

engaged teenager sitting around

40:06

the table going Yes, Mom. Yes,

40:09

dad. I mean, often that'll be

40:09

the case in our house. It'll be

40:14

like, we'll have a conversation

40:14

in like, the next day, my guy

40:17

will come and say, Mom, I'm

40:17

sorry. I did that. Actually. You

40:20

arrived. I'm not ready. You did?

40:20

Listen. Thank you. Yeah, just

40:26

like us as adults. So, Krista,

40:26

you mentioned that you had the

40:32

the course for teenagers that

40:32

you do at schools. Correct. What

40:38

resources do you have for

40:38

parents? Yeah.

40:43

Okay. Yeah. So yeah, so the

40:43

course is something we launching

40:47

next year. And it's a five part

40:47

video based course for high

40:52

schools that are low teachers or

40:52

wherever can run. And that's

40:56

just kind of to get

40:56

conversations going in schools.

40:59

On the 24th of November, I'm not

40:59

sure when we are recording when

41:02

when we airing this podcast, but

41:02

I'm doing a zoom, kind of to

41:06

equip parents around this. And I

41:06

do those from time to time I do

41:11

zoom chats like this around

41:11

topics like gender, sexuality,

41:15

pornography, social media, all

41:15

the big things that are talked

41:17

about. So I try and do one of

41:17

those a term. And then a couple

41:22

of resources that I have found

41:22

really helpful just in my own

41:26

parenting. And in this issue, I

41:26

spoke about Abigail shires book,

41:30

irreversible damage, that's just quite a it's quite.

41:34

I mean, it is it isn't. It's not

41:34

written by psychologists. It's

41:37

written by a journalist. Just

41:37

it's kind of more an

41:40

investigative piece around why

41:40

these girls, so just interesting

41:44

stuff. And then there's another

41:44

book, just if you want to

41:48

understand the different

41:48

worldviews and things around

41:52

gender, there's a book by Nancy

41:52

Pelosi called Love thy body,

41:55

just around the skirt around the

41:55

body, and the two different

41:58

views and all of that stuff. And

41:58

then one of my favorite

42:01

resources and I've spoken about

42:01

her already is a psychologist

42:05

author called Lisa demore. She

42:05

wrote, probably her most famous

42:09

book has been untangled getting

42:09

your daughter. Yes, through the

42:15

six stages of adolescence, I

42:15

think it is. And then she's just

42:18

written a book that I've ordered

42:18

called the emotional life of

42:22

teens, which I am super excited

42:22

about. So not necessarily

42:26

specifically on gender, but she

42:26

talks into those and other

42:31

issues that our children are

42:31

facing. She also has a podcast

42:34

called The Psychology of

42:34

parenting, which I highly

42:36

recommend. It's one of those

42:36

ones, that's 20 minutes, you can

42:39

listen to it on the way to fit

42:39

your kids from school. And

42:42

she'll say like, should I let my

42:42

kid drink at home? You know,

42:44

those kinds of things? So those

42:44

are, I mean, there's so many,

42:48

but a couple that I love. Okay,

42:51

thank you. I'll link to those in

42:51

the in the show notes. So thanks

42:56

for those suggestions. This has

42:56

been a really amazing

43:00

conversation. And I'm hoping the

43:00

first of many. So thank you so

43:07

much for for joining us today

43:07

and just for the work that

43:11

you're doing. And I suppose

43:11

let's end it off on on this last

43:16

question that I have. And that

43:16

is what gives you hope about

43:21

this generation, this younger

43:21

generation?

43:26

That is such a good question.

43:26

And it's such a tough question.

43:29

And I almost feel bad for this

43:29

generation, because we've handed

43:32

in such a broken mess. on all

43:32

levels, you know what, you know,

43:41

I'm kind of regretting but

43:41

anyway, make that make me

43:44

hopeful is that, and I said a

43:44

bit of it before is they're not

43:49

afraid to challenge and ask

43:49

questions. And to come to their

43:54

own conclusions. I love that,

43:54

you know, we were specially in

43:57

South Africa. We grew up with

43:57

just you as you told because I

44:01

said, and you know, I love the

44:01

fact that I have very lively

44:05

debates with the teenagers that

44:05

I spend time with that that that

44:10

they aren't pushovers. You know,

44:10

you can they they're pretty,

44:13

they are much more globally

44:13

minded than we ever were. You

44:17

know, they are, as I said, the

44:17

hallmark of this generation is

44:20

love, which is amazing. You

44:20

know, our generation often would

44:24

choose the issue over the

44:24

person, but this generation

44:28

chooses the person over the

44:28

issue, which is such a great is

44:31

such a great thing. They really

44:31

personalize things for us. And

44:35

yeah, and so there's lots that

44:35

there's, there's a lot that this

44:39

generation has to struggle with.

44:39

But I think just a couple of the

44:43

things that those two things is

44:43

that they want real. They don't

44:48

want fake. They don't want just

44:48

because because you said so or

44:52

someone said so. They prioritize

44:52

people and they do they are

44:57

really kind of even even with

44:57

social media. Yeah, you know,

45:00

it's quite funny. We've got this

45:00

generation of Yeah, with a flip

45:05

phones and the Nokia 2110s Going

45:05

like social media, I got no time

45:09

for that. And I'm like, Yes, you

45:09

guys are amazing. Like just

45:13

being themselves. So

45:13

authenticity. It's just so

45:16

beautiful to watch. I love that

45:16

about this generation.

45:20

And I think it's something that

45:20

as parents need to be reminded

45:23

of, because so often we focus on

45:23

the negative and the up, you've

45:27

got your head and social media.

45:27

And we forgot, we forget to see

45:32

as they're developing as well. I

45:32

mean, as you say, this is such a

45:34

new a new thing that we're all

45:34

learning to deal with that.

45:39

Yeah, I think there's so much

45:39

positive that we can focus on in

45:43

this generation, and we need as

45:43

parents, we need to be reminded

45:46

of that. Yeah, for sure. For sure.

45:48

There's so much positive and

45:51

it's very easy to and to parents

45:51

out of fear of like, oh my gosh,

45:55

this is all the bad stuff. But

45:55

actually to look at what is in

45:59

our kids, because they are, you

45:59

know, I mean, I always say to

46:03

parents for listening to the

46:03

board, hope you enjoyed the

46:08

session. As always, you can

46:08

reach over to www

46:12

dot futures Mike's parents document them sign up, email list, as well as

46:14

check out all the links and

46:17

resources. Things happening. That's all for

46:19

this episode. Teenagers, they

46:22

are the bomb. As I head into those teenage

46:27

years, embrace love to hear

46:32

that. Exactly. Exactly.

46:35

And you know what, they

46:35

challenge you so much. And you

46:38

actually have to face your own

46:38

stuff, your own prejudice, your

46:41

own stuff, you've believed

46:41

forever, because that's, you

46:45

know, and they really get you

46:45

thinking that they don't keep

46:48

quiet. Because, yeah, I mean,

46:48

obviously, we teach all those

46:51

good things like respect and all

46:51

those good things. But of

46:54

course, it is lovely to have,

46:54

you know, they become that these

46:58

these people with great ideas

46:58

and different opinions to yours,

47:03

and they're just wonderful.

47:03

They're really great.

47:07

That's a really cool way to end

47:07

off this conversation. So thank

47:11

you. Yeah, thank you. Thank you.

47:15

It's an absolute pleasure.

47:15

Thanks for having me.