0:00

Brought to you by Toyota. Let's

0:02

go places. Welcome

0:07

to Forward Thinking. Hey

0:12

there, and welcome to Forward Thinking,

0:15

the podcast that looks the future and says,

0:17

you know, I hate to ask, but our friends

0:19

electric. I'm Jonathan Strickland

0:22

and I'm Joe McCormick. And of course they are

0:24

all organisms are electric? Actually

0:27

is that true? I'm not sure. Maybe

0:29

electro chemical. Are

0:31

they all electric? Maybe

0:34

not viruses? That might be one of the weird

0:36

virus definition issue. I don't think they're all electric.

0:39

I think some are hybrids. That

0:41

was a terrible joke. All right, Well, let's actually

0:43

transition into the introduction

0:46

for our podcast that doesn't involve

0:48

weird word play that doesn't get us

0:51

anywhere. We're gonna be talking

0:53

about, uh, something that we've

0:55

touched on in previous episodes, right, cyborgs.

0:58

No way, we haven't touched on that. And

1:02

I've never personally touched us like cyborg.

1:04

Yeah, but I would.

1:06

And furthermore, we have talked a little bit about

1:08

cyborgs in the past, or rather

1:11

about upgrading organisms. Um back

1:13

into scemberteen, we did a whole episode

1:15

about cyborg cockroaches. It's

1:18

called biobots. If you want to look it up. Uh.

1:20

And we also talked about the

1:22

possibility and the ethics of human upgrades

1:25

way way way back in March. I

1:28

wonder what that's like. I can't even believe

1:30

anyone was alive. Then it seems so long

1:32

ago. Um that one's called cyborg's ethics

1:34

and you, um, it

1:37

just occurred to me. Did we even talk about the amazing

1:39

X Files episode were of the cop cop copper phages?

1:41

Am I saying that right? Copper pages? I

1:44

don't know if we did the Christian and

1:46

I did in a stuff to blow your mind episode

1:48

that we did about the science of the X Files. I

1:50

want to say that at that point, none

1:53

of us were rewatching the series

1:55

and so we probably weren't talking about

1:57

it, okay, And then once it all hit Netflix

1:59

and we started kind of binge watching X

2:01

Files episodes, I was kind of hate

2:04

watching it. Well,

2:06

hey, if you have Netflix and you can go back

2:08

and watch War the Copper

2:10

Fadges, that's like a top five episodes. Yeah, yeah,

2:12

totally. It's one of the four that was written by Darren Morrigan.

2:14

I might be a huge X Files nerd uh.

2:16

And those four that he wrote I think are the

2:18

best Uh, he starred or

2:20

co starred in one of the others that I really

2:23

like, called Small Potatoes at any rate, So

2:25

we're not talking about Darren Morgan in this episode

2:28

X Files that much. But but yes, uh, cybernetic

2:30

life forms, life forms that have some extra

2:33

bits kind of worked in, and or

2:35

synthetic life because we also touched on synthetic

2:38

life relatively recently. Uh,

2:40

I don't know, scroll down, see what

2:42

you find. Yeah, it's like it's like maybe

2:44

from maybe a month back or something.

2:47

It's pretty recent that we talked about synthetic

2:49

life forms. You know, it sounds no offense

2:51

to you all. It sounds like we are already

2:53

getting a little mushy with the terminology

2:56

here, Like what it what is the category

2:58

distinction we're trying to create eight about these uh,

3:02

the joining at the edges of

3:04

of technology and life. Let's

3:07

let's let's clear that up a little bit. Okay.

3:09

Uh, this term cyborg, you

3:11

probably know it most from the Genclaude

3:13

van Damme movie Cyborg directed

3:15

by Albert Pune, or maybe not. You

3:18

probably know it from culture. Cyborg

3:21

is a term that has generally come to be understood

3:23

as some sort of union between the

3:25

biological organism and the

3:28

machine in some way or another. And

3:30

I say that generally because there is a

3:32

gap between the specialized definition

3:35

of cyborg and the common use

3:37

of the term in culture, right, Like, he's more

3:39

a machine now than C slug,

3:41

twisted and evil. Yeah,

3:44

So the term cyborg is a shortening

3:46

of cybernetic organism. You might

3:48

know that much. And it was coined back

3:51

in nineteen sixty by Manfred

3:53

Klein's and Nathan Klein.

3:55

Their names sounds similar, but they're not the same,

3:57

spelled different. And that that article

4:00

in nineteen sixty was in the journal Astronautics

4:02

and it was called Cyborgs and Space.

4:05

So I want to read a quote for you. Go ahead. If

4:08

a fish wish to live on land, it

4:11

could not readily do. So they're

4:13

off to a good start, I think, starting to sell very susical

4:15

at the very beginning. If a fish

4:18

wished to live on land. Uh,

4:21

If, however, a particularly intelligent

4:23

and resourceful fish could be found

4:25

who had studied a good deal of biochemistry

4:28

and physiology, was a master engineer

4:31

and cyberneticist, and had excellent

4:33

lab facilities available to him,

4:35

this fish could conceivably have the

4:38

ability to design an instrument

4:40

which would allow him to live on land

4:42

and breathe air quite easily in

4:44

the same manner. It is becoming apparent that

4:47

we will in the not too distant future

4:49

have sufficient knowledge to design instrumental

4:52

control systems which will make

4:54

it possible for our bodies to do things

4:56

which are no less difficult. So

4:58

specifically, in this human analogy

5:00

that they make, they were talking about space

5:03

clients in client argue that as

5:05

humans venture into space, it's going

5:07

to be easier to change the human

5:10

animal to be better suited to

5:12

space conditions than it will be to create

5:14

earthlike conditions in space

5:17

for the unaltered human. Interesting,

5:20

so they're talking about actually changing

5:23

human beings in some form or

5:25

function, not necessarily, you

5:28

know, using technology

5:30

to compensate for the

5:32

things we would encounter in space, but to actually

5:34

change humans. So that well, yeah,

5:36

they are talking about using technology to compensate,

5:39

but the compensation wouldn't be external

5:41

in our environment, integrated into

5:43

humans as opposed to like a space suit,

5:46

right right, and and I'll be it. This

5:48

is before space suits existed, right,

5:50

this was before there was any human space

5:52

exploration. Published in nineteen sixty, the first

5:54

human space flight. Your Garrands in nineteen

5:56

sixty one, so this is before

5:59

we had any experien rants whatsoever in this field.

6:01

But by their definition quote,

6:03

the cyborg deliberately incorporates

6:06

exogynous meaning coming from outside

6:09

exogenous components, extending

6:11

the self regulatory control

6:13

function of the organism in

6:15

order to adapt it to new environments.

6:18

And this means that the cyborg is

6:20

not enslaved to his or

6:22

her survival machinery. Uh,

6:24

the the incorporated survival machinery

6:27

operates quote automatically and

6:29

unconsciously, leaving man free

6:31

to explore, to create, to think,

6:34

and to feel. So in

6:36

in an interesting kind of way. I think the emphasis

6:38

here because people always think about human

6:40

cyborgs and the human context is changing

6:43

our nature. But the

6:45

way Clines and Incline

6:47

here envisioned it, it it was almost as if it was

6:50

enabling us to be more

6:53

like the kind of creature we wish

6:55

to be, you know, the ideal, yeah, trans

6:58

humanism, rather than cybern netics

7:00

the way that we consider maybe cyborg

7:03

netics. Yes, well yeah, I mean the emphasis

7:05

is on is on not making us different

7:08

fundamentally, but just sort of like getting

7:10

all of the rudimentary survival

7:12

junk out of the way, so that our

7:14

existence can be focused on the things that

7:17

really matter. This gets

7:19

right to the heart of a lot of different issues we've

7:21

talked about on this show that aren't necessarily

7:23

directly related to technology.

7:26

The general basic income, one could argue,

7:28

is covering very much the same ground, the idea

7:30

that once you have accounted

7:32

for the necessities,

7:34

the basic needs of survival, you

7:37

free people up to pursue the things

7:39

that they value and thus can become

7:41

better contributors to society

7:43

overall. It's the same similar ideas,

7:46

just a very different kind of

7:48

approach to it. Yeah, so in

7:50

their vision, they'll remember that this is talking

7:52

about trying to adapt us to other environments

7:55

very specifically, and cyborg

7:58

came to mean something much more general role

8:00

in the parlance of our times. But originally

8:03

they were talking very much about space. And

8:05

one example to give of modifying the human

8:08

to live in space is breathing.

8:10

So you know, breathing is required to

8:13

purge CO two and replenish oxygen. There's

8:15

no oxygen in space, you

8:17

might have heard before, and so

8:19

clients clients

8:21

incline right quote an inverse

8:24

fuel cell and no, we we would probably

8:26

call this a regenerative fuel cell today.

8:28

The idea of an inverse fuel cell is it does the

8:30

opposite of what a normal fuel cell does, instead

8:33

generating electricity through this chemical reaction

8:35

that you put in electricity and you get chemicals

8:38

out. Um,

8:40

they say, Uh, an inverse fuel

8:43

cell capable of reducing CO two to

8:45

its components with removal of

8:47

of the carbon and recirculation of the oxygen

8:50

would eliminate the necessity for lung

8:52

breathing. Such a system operating

8:55

either on solar or nuclear energy

8:58

would replace the lung make breathing

9:00

as we know it unnecessary. Conventional

9:03

breathing would still be possible should

9:05

the environment permit it, discontinuing

9:08

the fuel cell operation. Also,

9:10

for quote fluid balance, they basically

9:12

recommend a sort of catheter filter

9:15

IVY circuit. Pleasant.

9:18

Okay, what

9:21

what book does that It's gonna remind

9:23

me of like Catch twenty two or something with one

9:26

tube going in and one tube going out and the character

9:28

convinced that the two tubes are essentially all part of

9:30

the same system. Um, yeah,

9:32

that's so well. Anyway,

9:35

given this stricter understanding in

9:37

the light of the original definition, that there is

9:39

really a distinction between cyborgs

9:42

like as they're defined here, and other terms

9:44

you might use like bio hybrids or

9:46

bio robots or something like that.

9:49

So cyborgs are technically augmented

9:52

organisms, and these augmentations

9:54

are designed to expand the self regulatory

9:57

control function. As they said a lot like technological

10:00

equivalence of homeostasis systems

10:02

and humans. That said, I

10:05

think for the purpose of this episode, we should probably

10:07

just accept that most people use cyborg

10:10

to mean any kind of hybrid of an organism

10:12

or robot or machine. Right, So you

10:14

could either start from the

10:16

the perspective of an

10:19

organism that you have modified technologically

10:21

in some way, or technology

10:23

that has has uh biological

10:26

material incorporated into it in some

10:28

way exactly. Yeah, So that that brings

10:31

up the question of like, what are the what's

10:33

the necessary constituent nature

10:36

of an object that we think of as a cyborg. So

10:38

imagine a space pig. Okay,

10:40

Yeah, you've got a space pig with an inverse fuel

10:43

cell that facilitates lungless respiration.

10:45

It's a cyborg. This is cyberpig

10:48

um and it can use electricity to

10:50

oxygenate its tissues and purge c O

10:52

two in a vacuum without lung breathing.

10:54

Isn't that great? Pretty sure? That's the definition

10:56

of link hogthrob in pigs and space and

10:59

keep on. I like where you're

11:01

going with this, Okay, But what if hypothetically

11:04

you had something sort of coming from the opposite

11:06

end of the spectrum. There's a mechanical fuel

11:08

cell that uses a

11:11

disembodied pig lung to facilitate

11:13

the generation of electrical current. Now

11:16

I'm not sure if you could really do that, but I'm just saying hypothetically,

11:19

by the more common understanding, would this

11:21

be a cyborg too? Technically

11:24

yes, yeah, I mean the original definition

11:26

probably not. But and we've also moved from the

11:28

Muppets to David Cronenberg kind of territory.

11:31

But I'm willing to roll with it. Okay. So

11:34

does the organic synthetic hybrid

11:36

system in some sense need

11:38

to have a brain or nervous system to be a

11:40

cyborg? It seems like, yeah,

11:44

yeah, it depends. Like like I would argue that

11:47

if you were to go back in time thirty

11:50

years and talk about the concept

11:52

of cyborg, I think a lot of people would would

11:56

in all fields, would generally

11:58

agree that they think of it as as

12:00

largely an autonomous sort of thing, that

12:02

whether it's a computer brain or

12:04

an organic brain, that the

12:07

robotic biological

12:09

thing itself would have some form of

12:11

autonomy. I would argue today

12:14

that's not that's no longer a

12:17

necessary criterion that you

12:19

could argue. You could have a cyborg

12:22

organism. I guess that's

12:24

that's being redundant. You could have a cyborg that

12:27

the machine exactly

12:29

and your pin number. You could have

12:31

the decisions quote unquote

12:34

that the cyborg is

12:36

making come completely externally through

12:39

external controls. That I think would be

12:41

an acceptable idea

12:44

today, The idea that that you've

12:46

got this organic slash technological

12:50

thing, but it's under external

12:53

control, it has no agency

12:55

of its own. I think people would still

12:58

say, like, well, for lack of a better unless

13:00

you're going to go with something like bio hybrid,

13:02

or we might

13:04

as well call it a cyborg and is so much

13:07

more fun. It is also just like

13:09

you immediately sit there like we're gonna be talking about ce

13:11

slug cyborgs very shortly. And

13:13

when you sit there and think CE slug cyborg,

13:15

first thing I think is that there's like a terminator

13:18

version of a sea slug out there. That's

13:20

not what is actually happening,

13:23

but it's way more fun

13:25

to think of it that way though. Well, let's get

13:27

to the slugs. Then we're gonna come

13:29

back to some sort of theoretical discussions

13:31

at the end. But Jonathan, do you have something to tell

13:33

me about slugs? I't.

13:37

I didn't want it to come out this way on the podcast.

13:40

I have a complicated relationship with slugs. I admit.

13:43

When I was young, I

13:46

had an occasional uh

13:48

foray into sadism by

13:51

placing the salt upon the slugs.

13:53

I regret those actions. Now

13:55

as an adult, I think I did it too. I'm

13:58

sorry, but dogs, but these slugs

14:00

are different. These are sea slugs. These are not

14:02

not land based slugs that are gnawing

14:05

on the various things you have in your

14:07

garden. Different kind of animal, different

14:09

kind of animal entirely, and can

14:12

at you for what you did when you were a kid, one would hope.

14:14

I mean, if it holds a grudge, then they they

14:16

are far more united than I gave

14:19

them credit for. Hopefully we can upgrade

14:21

their mental powers through extra computing

14:23

add ons CA so

14:26

that way they don't Yeah, well,

14:29

the whole thing we're talking about here is actually

14:31

a research project done with a team

14:33

working with Case Western Reserves

14:35

Biologically Inspired Robotics Laboratory,

14:39

which is a real thing that exists. It's

14:42

incredible. Uh. They've developed

14:44

an organic robot bio hybrid,

14:47

or if we prefer our our

14:49

other nomenclature, a cyborg that

14:52

consists of three D printed parts, very

14:54

very tiny three D printed parts,

14:57

and the mouth muscle from a

14:59

sea slug. Just the mouth must just the

15:01

mouth muscle. They they first started

15:03

practicing with muscle cells.

15:05

They tried to grow muscle cells

15:08

on kind of an organic scaffold,

15:11

but they found that the actual structure

15:14

of the mouth muscle from this particular sea

15:16

slug was already pretty much exactly

15:18

what they needed in order to accomplish the movements

15:21

they had in mind with this this three

15:23

D print material. So, as we talked about earlier

15:25

in that analogy, this would be kind of like

15:28

the pig lung that facilitates the fuel

15:30

cell. Yeah, that in this case, the muscle

15:33

is there in order to provide the

15:36

locomotion of this little

15:38

robot. It doesn't have any you

15:40

know, other anima to it. That's that's

15:42

what they're using. The muscle. For it's it's a

15:44

pusher, it's a binder. I

15:47

guess because I think of it that you've

15:49

connected two ends of a muscle. This

15:51

is oversimplifying, but you've connected

15:53

two ends of a muscle to two anchor

15:56

points on a bendable, flexible

15:59

three D inted material. And

16:01

then when you apply an external

16:03

electric field. We know that when you

16:05

stimulate muscle tissue with low

16:08

levels of electricity, you cause it to contract

16:10

so or or spasm, depending

16:13

upon the way to series of contractions. Exactly

16:15

so, doing that they can

16:18

make the muscle contract and thus bend

16:21

the bendy three D printed parts,

16:23

and then you know, through pulses, they

16:25

can make the actual robot

16:27

move forward. But just to be clear,

16:30

I mean we sort have already said this, but I do want to specify

16:32

there. We're not talking about like a mechanical

16:35

thing inspired by the way

16:37

the cea slug muscle works,

16:40

literally just a CE slug muscle. Yeah,

16:42

we're talking about, well, why would you choose

16:44

a CE slug muscle in the first place, Like, why not

16:46

do some other means of propulsion?

16:50

What's what did the sea slug ever do to you

16:53

that you required to remove the muscle from

16:55

its mouth and paste it onto

16:57

a three D printed robot. Well, let's get

16:59

some details first. Uh, the type of

17:01

sea slug we're talking about is specifically

17:03

the Eplesia californica

17:06

sea slug, and it

17:08

is apparently ideal

17:11

for this particular application, and they

17:13

the team plans on using robots

17:16

like this one. I would argue that the

17:18

ones they produced so far are kind of in that prototype

17:20

range, but they expect to use

17:23

robots like this one in specific

17:25

environments that would be hazardous or impossible

17:28

for humans to explore. An

17:30

example would be let's say a

17:33

plane has gone down over

17:36

the ocean, and perhaps it's a deep part

17:38

of the ocean. It's very difficult for us to get

17:40

down there and search for the black

17:42

box to determine what exactly happened.

17:45

You could deploy a swarm of these

17:47

robots that could explore the bottom

17:49

of the sea floor. Keep in mind that sea slug

17:52

muscles, they're they're made made,

17:55

it's probably the wrong word. They've evolved to

17:57

inhabit various ocean

18:00

environments, and they're incredibly hardy.

18:02

The the muscle tissue and sea slugs they

18:04

are able to survive in various

18:08

conditions of ocean water, different levels

18:10

of salinity and temperature. So

18:12

they're ideal for going into these kind

18:14

of situations because you can have

18:16

them survived through all the different depths of the ocean

18:19

as they make their way to where you want them to go. Then

18:21

they explore the ocean floor looking for

18:24

this black box. When they find it, you

18:26

know, you get the signal and then you can actually send

18:28

in something to retrieve the box. That's

18:30

one example. Another one that they gave is imagine

18:33

that you have a pond and

18:35

you know that there's some toxic material

18:38

leaching into the pond. You do not know

18:40

what the source is or where

18:42

it is, but you are observing

18:46

ecological changes around the pond.

18:48

So you don't want to send a person in there

18:50

because it could be the levels of toxicity

18:52

could be dangerous to the human beings. So

18:55

you put in these robots that are capable of

18:57

moving through the water to seek out

18:59

the sore and then maybe you

19:01

can do something about it. Those are some of the examples

19:03

they've given. Well. Uh the

19:06

interesting thing about using a ce slug

19:09

muscle as opposed to a three D printed

19:11

um uh or or traditional

19:14

type of that.

19:17

Yeah, it's using something like that. Well, for one

19:19

thing, like if you're using actuators,

19:21

they tend to be stiff and inflexible.

19:23

They they aren't good at

19:26

adapting to various environments, and

19:28

that also means that they have limited range of motion,

19:30

right, Like they might have a very simple

19:32

action like a piston would be a very

19:34

simple action in or out right. So

19:37

if you want to create a

19:40

limb that has a lot of flexibility

19:42

to it, you end up having to use a lot of actuators,

19:45

which ends up adding to the complexity

19:47

of the robot itself. It increases

19:49

the number of potential points of failure.

19:52

It also increases the cost of developing

19:54

and building those robots. And

19:56

it's not easy to create something that's

19:59

very adaptive to its environment, whereas

20:01

using a muscle or from a creature

20:03

that lived in that environment gets

20:06

around those problems. Muscles are much more flexible.

20:09

Uh, they're very this particular

20:11

sea slug, it's very resilient, like I mentioned

20:13

before, so you don't have to worry so much about failure

20:16

In that case, um and the

20:19

muscle tissue itself can get nutrients

20:22

from the ocean water around

20:24

it to keep the muscle alive. Now

20:26

that doesn't power the muscle, as

20:29

in, it doesn't generate the ability for

20:31

the muscle to contract. You still have to at

20:33

the moment anyway stimulate

20:35

it with an external electric field. They

20:37

do hope to eventually develop other

20:40

organic based robots using

20:43

this uh the sea slugs

20:45

muscularture, but also including

20:47

other parts of the sea slugs nervous

20:49

system like anglia and stuff. In

20:52

order for it to be able

20:54

to move without using an

20:56

external electric field,

20:58

you would have some other control mechanism to make

21:01

the robot move when you want

21:03

it to move, which would

21:05

be important because trying to

21:07

stimulate a swarm of robots

21:10

deep under the ocean with an electric

21:12

field would present its own challenges,

21:14

right You that that it's not a practical

21:17

solution to the problems that

21:19

we're actually talking about these robots potentially

21:21

tackling in the future. And

21:24

uh, I love the idea

21:27

that they eventually want to create

21:29

essentially an entirely organic

21:31

robot, so no

21:34

inorganic parts. It's all

21:38

yeah meat robot, which by the way,

21:40

is is pretty much the way Catereral Capec

21:42

envisioned robots and Rossum's universal robots.

21:45

They were synthetic beings but they were not

21:47

necessarily electronic

21:50

beings. The robots

21:53

and Carol Capex play were

21:55

closer to the like

21:57

the replicants in uh In Blade

21:59

Run or and even more organic

22:02

than they were, at least in

22:04

most of the variations I've read of the play.

22:06

I've never read it in the original because I can't I

22:09

don't have that linguistic ability. But they

22:13

at any rate, they wanted to do

22:15

a fully organic robot,

22:17

the idea being that if you lose them,

22:19

like if they if through whatever means,

22:22

like they're going through a hazardous area and eventually

22:24

they break down, they would decompose

22:27

naturally, or they could even be eaten by

22:29

stuff in the environment, that is,

22:32

and not cause harm.

22:34

This almost reminds me in some ways of when

22:37

we talked about edible electronics, like

22:39

wanting to make electronic devices entirely

22:41

out of components that you could digest safely.

22:44

Sure, because yeah, if you're gonna accidentally

22:46

pollute a waterway, it's nicer to do it with

22:48

a good, friendly corpse than

22:51

with electronics

22:53

which have batteries that can you know it's

22:55

bad times of battery leaks into your water, right,

22:58

just making the problem worse. I hope fully,

23:00

the synthetic organic

23:03

what are the terms completely organic

23:05

robots would be sterile correct,

23:08

Well, I mean they from what I understand,

23:10

they would be still completely

23:13

controlled. Externally, they would

23:15

have they would have no uh autonomous

23:18

function whatsoever, so they wouldn't

23:20

contain the reproductive bits. Yeah, you

23:22

would essentially just have it. You would just have

23:24

an inert robot if you weren't, if

23:27

you weren't using that external control. Be like,

23:30

you know, if you had a remote control

23:33

car and there's no wireless frequency

23:35

going on around that car, it's not going to start moving

23:37

on its own unless it's tobor.

23:40

Granted, if Tobar has been

23:42

reincarnated as an RC car,

23:45

you might have some problems. I think we just

23:47

came up with a plot for Toy Story five. Pixar

23:52

call us, yes, please do? I

23:54

mean generally, yeah, Well, we'd love to talk

23:56

to you. I love the idea of a completely

23:59

organic row bot. I think that's hilarious

24:01

and it's it's

24:03

something that should encourage us to be thoughtful.

24:06

Look as what what is a robot in that sense?

24:09

So you say a robot is something it's a machine

24:11

that uh that in well,

24:14

actually, I mean there are different

24:16

definitions. Well, if you can, you go with the classic

24:19

definition, the Carol Capeck definition,

24:22

where you had organic robots. A

24:24

robot is a synthetic being humans

24:27

have built in order for it to do work

24:29

that humans do not want to do or cannot

24:32

do. And in the case

24:34

of Rossam's universal robots, you have these

24:36

synthetic beings that rebel against

24:39

that because in that sense,

24:41

robot is essentially a slave. It's just

24:43

it's an artificial being that's been created

24:45

by people, but still has this feeling

24:48

of of well, I am being forced

24:50

to do this work, it was not on my own volition. So

24:53

same sort of idea for robots

24:56

in general, except we've met largely

24:58

not gone the organic route,

25:00

except in a few odd

25:03

cases here and there, and by odd I mean

25:05

infrequent h and

25:07

also sometimes sometimes kind of unusual

25:09

and weird. But we've mostly

25:12

focused on the electronic version of robots,

25:15

right, the technological version of

25:17

robots. So I would

25:19

argue that this definition goes right

25:21

back to the heart of the original definition. It's

25:23

a synthetic machine,

25:27

whether it's organic or inorganic, that

25:29

is meant to do work that we humans are either

25:32

unable or unwilling to do. Ourselves, That's

25:35

what I would say. All right, well, under that definition,

25:37

I mean, if you could imagine a scenario

25:39

where we synthetically create

25:42

a dog and it is,

25:45

you know, pretty much like any other dog,

25:47

except you've grown all of its organs

25:49

in a in vitro and then combined

25:51

them to make a functioning

25:54

dog. I mean, should

25:56

should our attitude towards this organism

25:59

be any different than it would be towards

26:01

a naturally occurring dog. Birth

26:03

to two dogs? As an

26:05

excellent question, I

26:07

don't. I mean, obviously, it's one of

26:10

those that I think people would come up with their own

26:12

individual answers. The fact that you chose dog

26:16

which hits our super soft spot. For me, I'll

26:18

be like, well, I mean, if it's it's

26:21

like the you know, if it looks like a duck and if it

26:23

quacks like a duck, that it's good enough for me. It's sort of

26:25

the same thing. Except if it looks like a duck and quacks like

26:27

a duck. I'm not going to call it a dog, Joe. That's

26:29

stupid, that would be absurd.

26:33

Yes, um would? I mean, I don't know, like

26:35

I think that we shouldn't morally

26:37

speaking treat this cyber

26:40

dog with any difference than

26:43

than we would treat a regular

26:45

dog. But but I think we would well,

26:47

and I think it's human nature to look at that

26:49

and runaway screaming, and

26:52

well, if it looks like Frank and dog, then definitely,

26:54

well okay, So here's the thing. I mean, it seems to me

26:57

that the crucial bit there

26:59

would be the nervous system. Like

27:01

if it has a nervous system, you wouldn't feel

27:04

okay to even a dog you grew

27:06

in vitro. If you grew a brain for

27:08

it and it worked like a normal dog

27:10

brain, I know, I wouldn't feel okay, like sending

27:12

that dog into a dangerous situation or

27:15

something like that. That's still a dog. Yeah,

27:17

But I mean, if

27:19

you're growing organic robots,

27:22

it seems like you will need some sort

27:24

of nervous system type

27:27

type apparatus to control it. Which

27:29

it gets into what they were talking about with future

27:32

future versions of it. Well yeah, and and it

27:34

would all depend on like how sophisticated

27:36

a nervous system are you talking about? You talking about something

27:38

that would allow enough for

27:41

someone else to have external control

27:43

of the the robot, whether

27:45

it's organic or in organic if you're going

27:47

to make the muscles move, you need a nervous system.

27:49

Yeah, but I mean, is it one that is capable

27:53

now having any sort of experience or is it

27:55

simply going to be one that follows the instructions

27:57

that you give it in real time?

27:59

Another words, is it more like a remote controlled

28:03

object or is it able to do

28:05

anything semi or or

28:07

fully autonomously. The closer you

28:09

get to autonomous, I would argue, the

28:13

more you're gonna have to treat that as a living

28:15

thing, whether it's organic or inorganic.

28:17

I feel that way. Um oh yeah,

28:19

you know, which we discussed at length the

28:22

other week in our Robotic Personhood

28:24

episode right right, and and we've even talked

28:26

about it in previous episodes where we've mentioned

28:28

the idea that if a robot is

28:30

capable of simulating behaviors

28:34

that are are that we associate

28:36

with organic beings, that living

28:39

natural creatures. If

28:42

the more it's able to exhibit those sort

28:44

of behaviors, even if it's just

28:46

a simulation, it may be for

28:48

our own personal benefit to

28:50

treat the robots as if they are

28:53

in fact natural creatures.

28:56

Uh, this would be like, you know, it's kind

28:58

of a weird thing to think about, but it's almost

29:01

better for for human being psychologically

29:04

to treat robots that would

29:06

exhibit such behaviors as if they were alive,

29:08

even if you could argue

29:11

that the robot itself somehow,

29:14

you know, empirically, isn't alive

29:17

at any rate. That's so much further down

29:19

the road than simply attaching a c

29:22

slug muscle to a piece of three D printed

29:25

um material. If

29:28

people are talking about creating entirely

29:30

organic robots, I think that's something we need to be

29:32

thinking about. Yeah, eventually, Yeah, I think

29:34

the initial organic robots

29:37

are essentially going to be the organic

29:39

counterpart to a remote controlled car.

29:42

It's not gonna be any more sophisticated

29:45

than a microprocessor that would allow

29:47

a radio signal

29:50

to be translated into physical

29:52

motion. Yeah, and that actually

29:54

is an excellent tie in into our

29:56

our next subject in this episode,

29:59

which is synthetic sting

30:01

rays. Yes, so

30:03

wait, is this closer to the like a stingray

30:05

modified with predator vision

30:07

or more like a pig long It's more like

30:10

a pig lung. Uh, It's it's

30:12

a it's a robot powered by living tissue.

30:14

Up. But I would say that it's design

30:16

principles could lead to the modification

30:19

of organisms in the future. I

30:21

will explain. So, a team

30:23

out of Harvard University has built a synthetic

30:26

sting ray that can swim around

30:28

and be stimulated to move by exposure

30:30

to these little blue lights. Why

30:32

is stingray you ask with your eyeballs.

30:35

Um, Because it's an organism that has

30:37

a powerful and efficient muscular

30:39

system that has the capacity to act

30:41

and react in moving fluids

30:44

when it swims. Yes, um,

30:47

And and basically, our

30:49

circulatory system is a system

30:52

of moving fluids that acts and reacts

30:54

to stimuli via a powerful

30:56

and efficient muscular system. A

30:58

k A your heart. Are you about to tell

31:01

me that we're going to eventually have synthetic

31:03

sting rays swimming through our blood streams? Because

31:05

I didn't prepare myself for that eventuality.

31:08

No, okay, all right, I could

31:10

take a breath then. But their thought

31:13

was that if we can create a synthetic stingray,

31:15

then maybe we can create better

31:17

artificial hearts. Oh

31:21

how interesting. I never would have made that

31:23

connection. Yeah, the connection

31:25

was was made by the

31:27

team leader, one Kit Parker Um,

31:29

who's it's the same team that created an

31:32

artificial jellyfish back in and

31:34

this Parker Fellow has been inspired

31:37

by aquarium visits with his daughter

31:39

and and also by his frustration with with

31:41

the lack of really good artificial hearts

31:44

in our in our current medical culture, when

31:47

we do have lots of examples

31:49

of things living things that

31:52

beat and pump in nature. Uh,

31:54

you know what, why don't Why don't we have a better hearts?

31:57

Um? So he sees he sees projects

31:59

like this jellyfish and the stingray as

32:01

ways to help develop better human

32:04

biotechnology. That's so interesting,

32:07

But he does it in real creepy ways, mad

32:10

science style. I mean a little

32:12

bit. I mean, I don't know. It depends on how far

32:14

you played up and how how much you choose

32:16

to be squeaked out by it. But okay,

32:19

Like, did I mention that the stingray

32:21

and the jellyfish are powered by rat heart

32:23

cells? You mentioned

32:25

they had biological material, but didn't mention

32:27

that they were they were deriving their

32:29

power from rat hearts. I want to I want

32:31

to give you guys. I want to give you guys a quote.

32:34

Um there. Parker

32:36

did this interview with NPR, and in

32:38

it he was talking about sitting down with one of his

32:40

fellow researchers and explaining this plan

32:43

and so and so Parker says,

32:46

I said, we're going to take a rat apart,

32:49

we're going to rebuild it as a stingray,

32:51

and then we're going to use a light to guide

32:53

it. And then Parker

32:55

says, and the look on his

32:57

face was both sorrow and horror.

33:01

Yeah, this that sounds like it comes

33:03

straight out of like a B movie,

33:06

like horror film, right like that?

33:08

You know, it reminds me of an episode of The Mighty

33:11

Bush where it's called Mutants and it's

33:13

all about the owner of the zoo,

33:15

in order to attract more people to the zoo, decides

33:18

to take apart all the animals and put

33:20

them back together in weird ways

33:22

because that will attract a bigger crowd,

33:25

Lauren, wasn't this the story that was

33:27

behind Miss Quimby and the Rats of nim

33:32

Good reference? But you

33:35

know the name of the missing rat,

33:38

right, the husband rat. You know what his

33:40

first name was, right, Jonathan?

33:46

But only in the book. I don't think he's mentioned

33:48

that. Maybe he's mentioned that way in the movie too. Yeah,

33:50

it's been a long time since I've seen the rats

33:52

of nim or read the book, so I can't

33:55

say that I recall specifically. Uh

33:57

but furthermore, Parker

34:01

Parker went on to program

34:03

these these living, disembodied

34:06

rat heart cells to propel plastic

34:10

stingray bodies through the water, always

34:13

heading towards the light. I

34:16

just want to shake this dude's hand. Yeah, there's like every

34:18

every horror movie I've ever seen has been wrapped

34:20

up in the story. Somehow we got some

34:22

poulter Geist in there, you

34:25

know, we got Frankenstein and but

34:28

but but it is. It is a fascinating

34:30

technological, biotechnological approach

34:33

to a to a problem. Uh

34:35

so, so what what they did exactly was they took

34:37

about two thousand rat heart

34:39

cells um genetically altered them

34:42

to react to this pair

34:44

of of of blinky blue lights

34:47

and fitted them into a little silicone stingray

34:49

shaped body that has this thin,

34:51

tiny gold skeleton. UM.

34:53

The whole thing is a little bit less than an inch in

34:56

diameter, like like twenty millimeters or so,

34:58

about the size of a US nickel and

35:00

UM and and the living

35:02

cells in it are fit together in patterns

35:05

that allow them to be stimulated sequentially.

35:07

UM. It's sort of like you know, the wave

35:10

in a baseball stadium. Uh, you

35:12

know when when when everyone this is such a visual

35:14

thing and I was like about to do it to show

35:16

you guys on air. That's not efficient,

35:19

but it would have been a very small but enthusiastic

35:21

wave. Yes, I don't think we could.

35:23

We could do a good wave in here anyway. Um

35:26

uh so yeah, so so

35:28

so insequential patterns, um,

35:30

and by giving

35:33

the giving the little

35:35

synthetic creature different light inputs,

35:37

like by modulating the frequency of the

35:40

flashes, and by acting by

35:42

by activating either both lights

35:44

simultaneously or only the right

35:46

side or only the left side. Um,

35:49

they've guided this little stingray

35:51

buddy through an obstacle course, and

35:53

yeah, it moves like a real sting ray.

35:56

Well it makes sense that they would have to have it in this

35:58

sort of modulated fashion.

36:00

After all. That's the way that if you watch a

36:02

sting ray swimming in slow motion, you see

36:04

that sort of like a ripple effect through

36:06

its musculature as it propels itself through.

36:09

So yeah, it's really cool. Yeah, And

36:12

what they're hoping will come out of this research

36:14

eventually is an artificial heart

36:16

made with real living

36:19

muscle cells. Um, you know, rather than

36:21

being just just a mechanical

36:23

pump or even you know, a fancy

36:25

mechanical pump that's outfitted with sensories

36:27

that can react to blood pressure. Um, this

36:29

kind of artificial heart could grow and

36:32

change and react more

36:34

like real hearts do. Right. That

36:36

makes perfect sense. So if for example,

36:39

a child were to need a heart

36:41

transplant, uh, and you

36:43

didn't have and a donor is an available, you didn't have

36:45

a donor available, and you don't necessarily want to uh

36:48

fit an artificial

36:50

mechanical heart because growing

36:53

child, right, because then you may have to do

36:56

future surgeries to correct for that

36:58

later on. This is an

37:00

alternative approach that could be

37:03

incredibly helpful for those

37:05

sort of cases in

37:07

particular, a lot of different cases obviously.

37:09

Oh yeah, yeah, well, I mean, I mean heart hearts

37:12

are muscles that that grow and change very

37:14

much with us, depending on how much exercise

37:16

we're doing and uh and other other lifestyle

37:19

factors. So yeah, it could be it

37:21

could be huge, all right. So we have these

37:23

these two different examples of incorporating

37:26

biological material into a synthetic

37:30

robot of some sort, whether and

37:33

different plans for either approaching

37:35

this to create more organic robots

37:37

in the future, as is the case with a c slug,

37:39

or to develop technologies

37:43

that are inspired by,

37:45

but not necessarily easily linked

37:47

to on on a surface level, to

37:49

a synthetic creature

37:51

the case of the stingray. What

37:54

about the future of cyborgs?

37:56

This is obviously very uh

38:00

early days in in that

38:02

kind of realm. What are we seeing moving

38:05

forward? Well, in some ways,

38:08

if you think about it, humans are already

38:10

sort of cyborg is with our contact

38:13

lenses and our pacemakers and our

38:15

Pokemon go machines. But

38:18

I was kidding about that last one. But yeah,

38:21

you might be. But you know, I'm I'm gonna

38:23

catch that gush darn sid

38:25

duck that's been haunting the office

38:27

for the last twenty five minutes. There's a

38:29

side duck in the office right now. No, there's not. Why

38:32

would you lie to my Jonathans? It

38:34

was germane to what Joe was

38:36

saying, really just for the purposes

38:38

of entertainment. I I feel

38:41

very ashamed, and having gotten your hopes

38:43

up, Jonathan is going to create a side

38:45

duck dynasty in here. I'm

38:48

trying to grow out the beard anyway,

38:50

but so so there's already

38:52

the human case. But I mean, we've talked about human

38:54

modification before, and in many cases,

38:56

I think it's interesting to think about how biohybrid

39:01

animals and cyborg animals may

39:03

proceed cyborg or biohybrid

39:05

humans. Yeah, they're still

39:08

going to be I imagine a lot of ethical

39:10

considerations even with the idea

39:12

of transforming

39:15

animals in different ways, especially the more complex

39:17

the organism. I I imagine the more ethical

39:20

questions we will ask ourselves. But it seems

39:22

to me that it's far more likely we're

39:24

going to to see examples of that in

39:27

and even complex organisms. Well

39:30

before we get to a point where

39:32

it is widely accepted

39:35

within human culture, we'll we'll still

39:37

have maybe one or two people who are seeking

39:39

out the opportunity to

39:41

enhance themselves on an individual

39:44

basis, but those will be outliers,

39:46

not like this is a general trend.

39:49

We're gonna see lots of people following

39:51

well, And as we've discussed on the show

39:53

before, there are so many, um

39:56

like legally ethical questions and

39:58

and and hurdles to too mechanically

40:02

jump over. I'm not sure where I was going with that. But

40:05

before we have doctors with

40:07

the legal capacity to make that kind

40:09

of upgrade. Yeah, yeah,

40:12

absolutely, But it's it's interesting

40:14

to think, well, assuming we

40:16

do reach a future where more complex

40:18

organisms can

40:20

be altered into some

40:23

form of cyborg whether you're changing an

40:25

existing animal or you're developing a brand

40:27

new type of animal from

40:30

scratch. Uh,

40:32

you know, and maybe a type of animal that completely

40:35

resembles an existing one but is in

40:37

fact like lab made as

40:39

opposed to we we found this puppy

40:41

and decided to give it infrared

40:43

vision with cyborg eyes.

40:46

Uh what what are some of the things

40:48

we might see? I like, I like that you have

40:50

the idea of augmenting

40:54

animals to make them

40:56

easier to care for. Well,

40:59

yeah, I mean that's a thing that in some

41:01

ways already exists. I mean, people

41:03

have wearables for animals that

41:05

are meant for health tracking purposes

41:08

of various kinds. I think they're probably kind of

41:10

crude today, But and we do have GPS

41:12

tracking chips and a lot of our and like

41:14

like i D tags and a lot of our animals. Yeah,

41:17

yeah, it's true pets with tracking

41:19

capabilities. Now, your dog might

41:21

very well already have an embedded microchip

41:23

with like identifying information in case

41:25

that dog gets caught. But

41:28

you wouldn't call that integrated system,

41:30

right, It's it's a tag that's underneath

41:32

the skin of the animal, but doesn't

41:35

integrate within the dog's actual internal

41:37

organs or anything. Well,

41:40

a version that might do something

41:42

like that was imagine something like this

41:45

pets with built in range limitters,

41:48

so kind of like the principle behind a collar

41:50

and an electric fence combo. So

41:52

you can let your pet roam free, but

41:54

they get within a certain range distance

41:57

of your hub on the GPS coordinates,

42:00

the pet has gone too far, and it gets some

42:02

kind of internal control mechanism

42:04

telling it to turn back right, like it suddenly

42:07

gets uneasy or hungry

42:10

or terrified and

42:13

now I want to go home and

42:15

hug my dog, or

42:19

you know, maybe it could simulate, you know, it gets

42:22

a certain distance away, there's suddenly the

42:24

simulated sensation of hearing

42:26

the food bowl rattle back at home

42:28

or something. But in

42:32

less cute and cuddly ways, you could have like spy

42:34

animals for warfare and espionage. I'm

42:36

sure that you can upgrade in all kinds of bizarre

42:39

cybernetically, yes, I mean you can still have it

42:41

cute and Cuddley if it's like a Jack Russell right

42:44

right. If you guys ever want to read something real depressing

42:46

um and and you are of

42:48

an adult age, then

42:51

then pick up the graphic novel WE three

42:54

W E and the number three that's by Grant

42:56

Morrison and it's real sad. It's

42:59

if you want be real sad someday and read a real

43:01

great story about that thing that we just talked

43:03

about. Check that one out, Okay,

43:06

I always want to be real sad. I highly

43:09

recommended. Actually, it's one of my favorite little one

43:11

shots anyway. But those are

43:13

the more standard types of things. I mean, you can

43:16

think of things like this yourself, right, and you know, what's

43:18

a way we can modify a pet

43:20

or organism to have some kind of control

43:22

function augmented by

43:24

technology. But I think one of the interesting

43:26

things is that in the examples we look

43:29

today, it's more the pig lung model. It's

43:31

coming from the other direction, not modifying

43:33

a whole organism with a little bit of technology,

43:36

but using an organ from an animal

43:38

or or you know, just some kind

43:41

of biological material

43:43

that is incorporated into

43:45

a machine or a robot. And

43:47

so there are lots of cases where we've

43:50

studied biomemetics, which is, you know, designing

43:52

machines and robots to mimic the behaviors

43:55

of living organisms and tissues. But

43:57

in a lot of these cases, it's probably worth asking,

43:59

now, hey, if we want

44:01

a robot that can do the same thing as a

44:03

squid tentnacle, is there a reason

44:06

we shouldn't just use a squid tentnacle.

44:09

I'm I'm sure that if squids could talk,

44:11

they would have something to say about that. Well. True,

44:13

imagine you could grow one in vitro. Okay,

44:15

well we'll skip that part. Uh,

44:18

I'm not saying you could grow as

44:20

squid tentnacle in vitro without having to have

44:23

any harm come to an actual squid. Sure,

44:25

while you're eating your calamari, I'm

44:29

saving them so much suffering. Uh,

44:33

I'm sorry, it didn't mean to sound so callous there. No,

44:35

I'm just having a shellfish issue.

44:41

In many cases, this is going to be impractical,

44:43

right, Like maybe you can't actually control

44:45

the biological tentacle with precision,

44:48

or maybe it tends to rot

44:50

or decompose in the environment that you would

44:53

want to use it. But in some cases,

44:55

the real tissue or organ might do

44:57

just as well as the synthetic copy

45:00

at which would save us a lot of R and

45:02

D. Right, Yeah, it makes me think of remember

45:04

the snake like robot

45:06

that could swim through a pool and climb trees

45:09

and stuff. This was from a few years ago, where

45:12

it's like the segment of robot and yeah,

45:15

bio mimetic. It was, you know, mimicking

45:17

the movements of a snake in order to propel

45:20

itself through both water and over land,

45:23

uh and up trees as it turns out, And

45:26

you would imagine that, Yeah, that's

45:28

that's probably pretty tricky, a tough engineering

45:31

challenge. If we reached a point where we were able

45:33

to either take an existing

45:36

snake or grow as a

45:38

snake essentially a snake sands

45:41

near uh sands snake brain

45:44

in the lab, and replace that with like a technological

45:46

version of whatever is we need in a control

45:49

system that kind of thing. Uh, that

45:51

might end up being much easier. And

45:53

depending upon what you were planning on putting that

45:56

snake robot to use,

45:58

you know, however you're playing on using it, it may

46:00

end up being more practical in that In that respect.

46:03

Um, obviously there's a lot of

46:05

work that has to go into making that

46:07

actually happen, like you were saying, with

46:09

the idea of the precision, making sure that

46:11

you can get all those movements just

46:14

right. Uh. As

46:16

we mentioned before on this show, when

46:18

it comes to living organisms,

46:21

they have had the benefit of millions

46:24

and millions of years

46:26

of research and development to get to where they

46:28

are today. We yeah,

46:32

we've been working on a much smaller time

46:34

scale, not even a blip

46:36

in the grand scheme of things. So

46:39

it's it's not like I don't wish to say,

46:41

like, oh, yeah, if we just did it this way, it would

46:43

make way more sense, because it

46:46

is in itself a monumental task.

46:49

It just maybe that in certain cases

46:52

it ends up making more sense to go down

46:54

that road than trying to replicate the

46:56

movement of a particular organism through

46:58

purely mechanical means. Yeah, and so here's

47:01

just one example that comes to my mind.

47:03

Uh, animal organs often

47:06

can do the same job a machine can do,

47:08

but with a lot greater energy efficiency.

47:11

This is a great one. Like, uh, it's

47:13

a very sci fi concept, But just stick with me

47:15

for a second. Here. Imagine we're going

47:17

to create some neurally inspired

47:20

computing robots, robots that have some

47:22

brain power, uh, and they they've

47:25

got you know, neural network kind

47:27

of logic, why

47:29

not use real neurons to do the

47:31

computation. Animal nervous

47:33

systems are known to be much more energy

47:35

efficient relative to their computing capability

47:38

than electronic processors are. So if

47:40

you're trying to create a robot that's maybe

47:42

both small and smart, it

47:45

would make a lot of sense to

47:47

try and see if you could use organic

47:51

nervous system neural material

47:53

rather than processors, you know, silicon

47:56

chips. So the big challenge there is creating

47:59

the interface that allows

48:01

for the technological

48:04

commands to be converted into

48:06

organic commands or

48:09

organic requests in the case of something like

48:11

you wanted to do some sort of machine learning type

48:13

of situation. Well, this is a very sci fi

48:16

kind of thing, and we're not close to

48:19

to do anything like this today, but it

48:21

is is an interesting concept. I like the idea,

48:24

especially, you know, if you're able to grow

48:27

neurons in the lab, right,

48:29

not not pull it out of an animal. Right. Yeah, I get

48:31

real squeaky squeaky about that sort of stuff.

48:33

I don't. I'm so I like

48:35

animals like I

48:37

like them I like them as they are, like

48:40

them with mustard, depending on the animal.

48:42

That is true. Um, but

48:44

yeah, it's it's but I like the

48:46

idea of leveraging

48:49

that incredibly efficient,

48:51

powerful unit

48:54

that collectively can create a

48:57

really uh robust

49:00

network as opposed to trying

49:02

to replicate it through technology, which

49:04

requires not just more energy but a lot more

49:06

space too. We've gotten really good at minaturization,

49:09

but nowhere near on the level of like how

49:11

deadly packed our brains are with neurons.

49:15

So it is an interesting idea.

49:17

I don't know if we'll ever get there. I mean it'll

49:19

It really will depend on which branch

49:22

of research ends up

49:24

being the most economically

49:26

feasible, at least in the short run. Right

49:29

Like if you say, well, we could

49:31

pour more money into research on the true

49:34

neural network side of things, where we're actually

49:36

using neurons, but we're so far

49:38

away from that, we think we're so many decades

49:40

away from that being a viable

49:43

discipline. Whereas while

49:45

this other approach clearly is less energy

49:48

efficient in the in the end

49:50

result, we're closer to being able to

49:52

do that. And maybe it will be that the

49:54

other method is one we never explore it's just a

49:56

branch where we we identify it but realize,

49:59

like it just not practical for us to go

50:01

down that road. I mean, someone

50:03

will, like a

50:05

mad scientist version of Robert Frost take

50:08

the road less traveled. That

50:11

will make all the difference. All

50:13

right, So that wraps up this discussion. Fact.

50:16

You know, that's one of the most misinterpreted

50:18

poems in English. As a as

50:20

a fellow liberal arts major, yes

50:22

I do. Yeah, you should look

50:24

it up. Look it up. People read about

50:26

it sometimes. This is kind of funny. It's it's

50:28

it's misused in inspirational

50:30

speeches all the time. It's actually

50:33

kind of a depressing poem. Most of Robert

50:35

Frost's poems are kind of depressing poems.

50:38

Dark. Yeah, I mean they're they're they're beautiful and

50:41

and and they're so simple sounding. But yeah,

50:43

but most of them aren't like pleasant.

50:46

But if you want a pleasant experience, get an Emily

50:48

Dickinson poem and read it to the tune of Gilligan's

50:50

Island because it works

50:53

also Yellow Rose of Texas. They both work. Um

50:56

at any rate. I'll with that little

50:58

bit of knowledge and trust me, it works. Go and

51:00

try it. I'm going to sign off here. If

51:03

you guys have suggestions for future episodes

51:06

of forward Thinking, or you have some questions

51:08

or comments, send them our away

51:10

Our email addresses f W Thinking

51:13

at how Stuff Works dot com, or you

51:15

can always drop us a line on Twitter or

51:17

Facebook. At Twitter where f W Thinking

51:19

you can search f W Thinking, and Facebook's a little

51:21

search engine we'll pop right up. You can leave us a message

51:24

there. I'm seriously never going to be able to unthink

51:26

this, and we will talk to you again really

51:29

soon. For

51:35

more on this topic in the future of technology,

51:37

visit forward thinking dot com,

51:50

brought to you by Toyota. Let's

51:52

Go Places,