0:00

This is the BBC. This

0:03

podcast is supported by advertising outside

0:05

the UK. You're

0:08

about to listen to Gangster Presents

0:10

Catching the Kingpins. Episodes will

0:12

be released on Sundays wherever you get

0:14

your podcasts. But if you're

0:16

in the UK, listen to the full series

0:19

right now, first on BBC Sounds. OK,

0:24

philosophical problem for you. You've

0:26

got secret information that someone is

0:29

about to be killed. You can

0:31

intervene to save that person and

0:33

be pretty sure you'll save that person's life.

0:37

But if you do this, you'll

0:39

expose the source of your secret information,

0:41

and that's likely to

0:43

put far more lives at risk. So

0:45

what do you do? Do you save

0:47

the person you know is at risk, or

0:50

do you go for saving more lives

0:52

by letting this one person die? The

0:55

police have strict rules about what to

0:57

do when faced with the choice of

0:59

compromising a source or stopping a killing.

1:03

And in 2020, it was an issue that

1:05

came up a lot. Inspirations

1:09

to murder, firearms, serious violence. So

1:12

you're talking about ordering up kidnaps

1:14

from murder like you'll order the

1:16

take away? Loads of drug dealing,

1:18

corruption. I'm Mabin Azar,

1:20

and for BBC Sounds, this is

1:22

Catching the Kingpins. The

1:25

story of the biggest organised crime

1:27

bust in British policing history. Career

1:30

police officers of 25, 35 years say

1:32

they've never seen anything like this. It's

1:35

about what happens when police find a

1:37

way of cracking in to a supposedly

1:39

secure mobile phone network

1:41

favoured by drug traffickers and

1:43

money launderers. IncroChat, as

1:45

it's known, became a required tool for

1:48

an estimated 10,000 UK criminals. Big

1:55

time criminals were being betrayed by their

1:57

own phones, bought from a

1:59

secretive company. called EnchroChat.

2:01

Intelligence in Europe enabled police to

2:03

crack an encrypted criminal communication system

2:06

called EnchroChat. EnchroChat was used by

2:08

60,000 criminals around

2:10

the world. A network of encrypted

2:12

mobile phones. Something called

2:15

EnchroChat. EnchroChat. EnchroChat.

2:17

EnchroChat. EnchroChat had been

2:19

hacked. Police

2:24

could track crimes almost in real

2:26

time. The criminals weren't aware

2:28

of their messages were being read. Sometimes

2:30

it was like being in a room

2:32

with them. And they are talking freely

2:34

and they don't see either. The

2:37

cracking of the network gave the

2:39

police unprecedented access to the secrets

2:42

of the criminal underworld. Now

2:44

we have unprecedented access to

2:46

the inside story of how

2:48

the Metropolitan Police used this

2:50

intelligence to convict some of

2:52

Britain's most dangerous and high-ranking

2:54

criminals. Bit men and drug

2:57

traffickers. People that will facilitate

2:59

murders for money. It's

3:02

a potentially agonising choice. Jeopardise

3:05

a once-in-a-lifetime source of information

3:07

that's paying big dividends or

3:10

stand back and risk someone

3:12

getting killed. If

3:14

you start making arrests, the game could

3:16

be up. Told

3:18

to threat to life. April

3:29

2020. At a

3:31

secret location in London, a team of

3:33

Met detectives are waiting for their daily

3:35

delivery of messages hacked

3:37

from over 1,400 London criminals

3:40

using the EnchroChat phone network.

3:43

It's been a couple of weeks since the

3:45

start of the EnchroChat operation. Whilst

3:47

most of us were at home due to lockdown,

3:50

DCI address High UKN and the team

3:52

are working 19 or 20

3:54

hour days in the office. Our

3:57

only exercise was to walk from the command

3:59

centre to... the cafe, get

4:01

an unhealthy sandwich and walk back. It

4:04

took over your whole life. You

4:08

knew you were doing something really, really important

4:11

to try to keep the country safe. Drifts

4:15

and the team don't know it yet,

4:17

but among the thousands of messages that

4:19

have come through is one looking for

4:22

a gun, or as the message calls it,

4:24

a James Bond thing. The

4:26

purpose? Well, it looks as if

4:28

someone is planning a murder, but

4:31

there's no guarantee the police will spot these

4:33

messages. So you can imagine

4:35

we are swamped with millions of times of data

4:39

and, you know, we're prioritising.

4:43

Will they discover the messages from

4:45

the end-crouch at user who's looking

4:48

for a gun before he kills

4:50

someone? Now,

4:58

this series is about a metropolitan

5:00

police operation to catch the criminal

5:02

kingpins in its patch in London.

5:05

But, of course, organised crime doesn't operate

5:07

neatly within the boundaries of one

5:10

police authority. Forces right

5:12

across the UK were busy digesting the

5:14

end-crouch at-haul. The Met would link up

5:16

with them when they needed to, just

5:19

as they'll do in this story about

5:22

a conspiracy to murder that starts with

5:24

a feud on the streets of Cardiff.

5:29

One evening in March 2020, a couple

5:32

of weeks before the coronavirus lockdown, three

5:34

men get out of a van in

5:36

the terrace street in the suburb

5:39

of Tramorpha. Between them,

5:41

they're holding a crossbow, a shotgun

5:43

and a pistol. They walk

5:46

towards a house. One

5:48

of the men opens fire... ..and

5:52

shoots through the front window. And

5:56

then, just Like that, they go on. And

6:05

you never reported to police known in

6:07

the street confirmed it actually happened. This.

6:10

Is Detective Inspector Polar Everly

6:12

Williams. She spent two decades

6:14

gathering intel on organized crime

6:16

groups in South Wales. We.

6:19

Had intelligence from an unreliable.

6:21

Source that suggested that the have

6:24

to be shocked that. Naturally

6:27

the I really am and her colleagues knock

6:29

on the door to work out what happened.

6:33

A lady called Mrs. Sinclair lives

6:35

there with a grown up son.

6:37

Frankie. Mrs Sinclair said she was

6:39

at a way of adding up

6:41

mental. We asked them both for

6:43

statements development. What happens? A little

6:45

skeptical. denied that's a nice house.

6:47

The beach on. Weekends

6:50

the street is residential street

6:52

people that said or Matthew

6:54

the Noise Comedy remember. He

6:57

didn't know his car backfiring. oh I see

6:59

want to shots. On a desk

7:01

a different. View hidden of like all

7:03

then. There

7:07

were no signs of damage to the

7:09

house either. Up the bay window was

7:11

in perfect condition. Maybe

7:13

a bit too perfect new maybe A

7:16

looking at the brenda of the front

7:18

of the house that looks pretty for

7:20

I says well. The

7:23

truth is that Mrs. Sinclair son

7:25

Frankie had missed them by inches

7:27

when gunshots were fired to his

7:30

front window. But. His

7:32

reluctance to report this to the

7:34

police isn't surprising at all when

7:36

you find out who Sang Sinclair

7:38

is a my The I. Williams

7:40

knows so much about him. Saw.

7:42

Thanks in class! Basically ten years ago I

7:45

started We Can and Intelligence and The Police.

7:48

And able to notice scientists unclear.

7:50

Which is creeping into almost. Everything. You do

7:52

in in Intelligence. Will. Also good Chance

7:54

again assaults it. As

7:57

islands and moved to be

7:59

too fast. Hamlin.

8:01

He was always a available spur,

8:03

not. Named. The

8:05

of the. Evidence against him. He was what Michael

8:08

Sankey the facility death to achieve something

8:10

going on sunk is unclear, new but.

8:12

Detectives. A Sick of seeing

8:14

Sinclair smirking face and mugshots as

8:17

sometimes staring out at them from

8:19

a cell. Fought. Seat:

8:21

Three convictions. Countless.

8:23

Crimes the police believe his we sold his

8:25

way out of as well. Drug

8:28

dealing, burglary, you name it. a

8:30

career criminal beneath the surface of

8:32

Ragus. Some the kids look at

8:34

a beagle fast cause plenty of

8:36

them. He's got the gear east

8:38

of the clothes and seven watch

8:40

skill sense he is. bought. the

8:42

television would tell you anything a

8:44

person involved in Oakland come out,

8:47

that would be. Yeah.

8:49

The kind of person who wouldn't call the

8:51

police when his house the shots at. The

8:54

kind of person who owns and encroach out

8:56

phone. Frankie picks

8:59

up his answer and texts another

9:01

use on this one with some

9:03

i'm based in London Savages Seventy

9:05

Sixers lights in one to the

9:07

police that would sound as if

9:09

he saying I'm planning an attack.

9:12

He. Reveals that the person he wants

9:14

to kill is someone who quote

9:16

lit up his mom's house. Support

9:19

Retaliation can't be no joke. The

9:23

London Gangsta messages back he can

9:25

source gun and ammunition for the

9:27

murder. Will the

9:30

police uncover the murder plot messages

9:32

before Frankie takes his revenge on

9:34

the man who shot up his

9:37

mother's house. The

9:45

Metropolitan Police Operations Center Dc I

9:47

trust Hi you Kane and his

9:50

team as dealing with literally millions

9:52

of messages can imagine why was

9:54

like how can I put. Organized

9:57

chaos. I'm not sure we have.

10:00

Taunt context. That band or what have

10:02

we got is coming at you and

10:04

Nine Uganda right? right? Because can do

10:06

it. But was there were concerned though. Cypress's. Up

10:09

a dynamic situation with super more more

10:11

information coming in overtime as they're concerned

10:13

that you might miss something. Is

10:16

always Atkinson. Ah, it's realizes

10:18

that. Mother. Please try

10:20

to go from organized chaos to

10:22

just organized caught of gangs that

10:25

Frankie Sinclair is still planning. To.

10:27

Kill Someone. Just as

10:29

soon as you can get hold of

10:32

a gun from his and quotes at

10:34

Mates in London and don't forget this

10:36

is April Twenty Twenty and the operation

10:39

is still a secret is on. When

10:41

the police discovered the plot will there

10:43

be willing to risk revealing the encroach

10:45

on hacked by arresting Frankie Sinclair and

10:48

is gone supply at in London. So

10:51

in that case there is a

10:53

threat of very serious. Violence.

10:56

Yes, By swooping in.

10:59

And making an arrest. You could

11:01

let the criminals know about the and

11:03

quarter operation. Is a

11:06

sense of balance? Is this Jim Carrey?

11:08

The Law Ice is worth more. Than

11:11

the anchor track. If there's a

11:13

threat, Slice doesn't matter about anything

11:15

else we have to prevent. It

11:18

I asked to of human rights act

11:20

played his face and is to replace

11:22

Clearly isn't fighting to do even if

11:24

we have information that is gonna be

11:26

some of them cause serious harm if

11:28

we have to show and earners facial

11:30

mobile data. I

11:32

know that threat to life trumps everything for

11:34

the police. And they'll want

11:36

to stop Frankie Sinclair killing whoever shot

11:38

up his mom's house. How are they

11:41

gonna do that without revealing how they

11:43

know about the plots? I don't go

11:45

to all the taxes that we use.

11:48

that. As house we imagined that

11:50

we can eat certain snc be able to sweep

11:52

and and. And and make

11:54

the arrests. Go without

11:56

without. With that knowledge been

11:58

made public. Not.

12:01

If they discover the messages in time.

12:17

On the streets of caught If the

12:19

gun violence is escalating. One

12:22

of Frankie his associates that's the

12:25

time the police use has been

12:27

shot in broad daylight outside a

12:29

parade of shops. Amazingly,

12:33

Frank his associates survives.

12:37

Now this to be the part in

12:39

the story where everyone decides that violence

12:41

isn't the answer and goes home. But.

12:44

These guys are wired differently.

12:47

Frankie. Is still determined to take

12:50

out the person who shot at his

12:52

mom's house. He's managed to

12:54

get hold of a gun. But. There's

12:56

a problem. He. Just were

12:58

telling my glasses and was an excuse withstand.

13:01

Can you imagine your job paying

13:03

to so legally kill. People this

13:05

a hell of a thing to

13:07

watch. Amanda I'm. Lizzie hate us

13:10

and I once heard wow this story

13:12

about how to U S Se van.

13:14

Source or trucks on

13:16

them A D count

13:19

Drugs. Com.

13:24

Students into what this was looks

13:26

like. Now the the all that

13:28

nobody complained and what might happen

13:31

to it in the seat? Chess

13:33

pieces killing death rate from Bbc

13:36

Radio Four. With me living a

13:38

double. On

13:40

Bbc soon. I'm

13:44

looking at this photograph from for

13:46

increasing class and quartet messages. that

13:48

he sent to the gun dealer in

13:50

london and in it does a bullets

13:53

and then there's the slip of the

13:55

gun and it's obvious that the bullet

13:57

doesn't fit is just way too big

14:00

And then there's a message that says it's

14:03

the wrong size. So

14:05

the bullets don't fit the gun. And

14:09

I mean from the messages you

14:11

can see it takes them ages to get the

14:13

right kind of bullets. One

14:16

of the things that comes up is how

14:18

difficult Frankie Sinclair finds

14:21

it to get his hands on a firearm. It

14:24

doesn't seem that easy actually. It's

14:26

not. And I think that's... It's actually getting hold of

14:28

bullets as well. So

14:30

firearms are difficult to get hold of.

14:32

You know, a couple of working firearms

14:34

and that's a testimony to A.

14:37

The legislation that we got in this

14:39

country, this mandatory sentence for having a

14:41

firearm. Also it's

14:44

a testament to the work that

14:46

police and Border Force, you know, all

14:48

the agencies do up and down the

14:51

country. And that difficulty

14:53

is really reassuring isn't

14:55

it? If you're determined enough and

14:58

you knew the right people, you could get a firearm.

15:01

In the end of the track you see

15:03

people looking for firearms all the time. So

15:05

we're talking about these well connected people that

15:08

are looking for firearms. And then you had

15:10

the old firearm supplier actually sending a shopping

15:12

list with values of it, you know. And

15:15

that's quite reassuring to see how much a firearm.

15:19

Are they very expensive? Yes. So

15:21

that tells you there's probably not that many of them

15:23

out there. Yes. Supply and

15:25

demand. Apart

15:32

from the glitches in the

15:34

underworld supply of firearms, Frankie

15:36

Sinclair has another problem. DCI

15:38

address Hayukane and the team at

15:41

The Met have now spotted the

15:43

messages Frankie sent to his London

15:45

gun dealer. The

15:47

case is flagged red. Top

15:50

priority. These are

15:52

two individuals that are very, very dangerous. happen

16:00

off the streets. But

16:24

at this stage, all Driss and his team

16:26

have are the EncroChat messages. They

16:28

don't even know who's sending them. That's

16:31

because EncroChat users have what they

16:33

call handles, aliases that

16:35

anonymize them. Frankly

16:37

Sinclair's EncroChat handle is nude

16:40

trained, and the person in

16:42

London who's approaching for guns and ammunition

16:45

uses the handle usual wolf.

16:48

The police know the rough locations

16:50

of the EncroChat users and their

16:52

movements from mobile phone mass data.

16:55

Driss' team have a hunch. They

16:57

think that the gun supplier usual wolf

17:00

is a criminal from Hackney in East

17:02

London, a guy called

17:04

Paul Fontaine. He's

17:13

got some convictions from his youth, but

17:15

he's in his studies now, and a dad of

17:18

four. He's even a church

17:20

volunteer and has been delivering food parcels

17:22

during lockdown. But if he's

17:24

the owner of the EncroChat handle

17:27

usual wolf, he might have

17:29

given himself away in his EncroChat messages.

17:32

Driss brings in Murder Squad Detective

17:35

DC Lightner to come through the

17:37

EncroChat hall. They need

17:39

to find out who bought the

17:41

gun before things escalate. Or

17:47

maybe it's too late. So

17:49

there was a tremendous amount of pressure

17:52

that I was under because of something

17:54

like 10,000 lines of data

17:56

for usual wolf. We were dealing with a

17:58

huge volume of data. Material. Dc.

18:01

Leitner started going through the thousands

18:03

of messages looking for clues. As

18:07

just told his in the first episode

18:09

the criminals with so comfortable with and

18:11

crow chats. That. They do things

18:13

like send selfish each other did

18:15

was to each other happy birthday

18:17

or send a photo of the

18:20

new car complete with registration numbers.

18:22

all little giveaways which could help

18:24

the police identify them. Usual Wolf,

18:26

however, looks as if he's a

18:29

bit more careful. She took almost

18:31

no pictures. verizon wireless on the

18:33

undies pictures he did. Strength would

18:35

be a firearms trust thinks about

18:37

much commodity, but there were other

18:40

clues. From. Some of the

18:42

people usual wolf that's Poll fontaine.

18:45

Has. Been communicating with on and crowed

18:47

shot. Because. They've.

18:49

Been a bit sloppy. See some time

18:51

or use a wolf. hasn't made a

18:53

mistake other people have signed you get

18:55

him safe under the main pool or

18:58

two different people and one of the

19:00

associates he seems to be sending usual

19:02

both a lot of careless messages. Is.

19:05

An enclosed that user who's hiding

19:07

behind the handle new to train

19:09

him to the number five times.

19:11

not of his face of him

19:13

sitting in a car of a

19:15

Rolex watch. heads up having breakfast

19:17

and his girlfriend's address where you

19:19

could see the salt in the

19:21

background. It was a little french

19:23

bulldog to be exact. You know

19:25

those two little guys with the

19:27

bags that he appears and squashed

19:29

pug faces? The

19:33

real breakthrough. Dc.

19:35

David Light Not comes across a

19:38

grainy image that's been sent to

19:40

usual both by New Train. The.

19:43

Photo shows three armed men in

19:45

front of a house. That

19:47

was a tremendous. Suspects.

19:55

That all sounds for a familiar, doesn't

19:57

it? guess whose house

19:59

they're outside When

20:02

we really carefully examined the picture

20:04

you could just make out one of

20:06

the registration plates are because shown in

20:08

the picture and that was

20:10

registered to Frankie's and Claire's mother. Nude

20:16

Train had sent usual wolves a CCTV

20:18

screen grab of the attack on his

20:21

mum's house. Police

20:23

suspect the sloppy EnquilChat user behind

20:25

the handle Nude Train who's sending

20:27

all this stuff is

20:29

Frankie Sinclair himself and

20:32

his much more careful gun dealer Paul

20:34

Fontaine in London has even made

20:36

a classic error too. He'd

20:40

taken his ordinary mobile phone and

20:42

his EnquilChat phone with him everywhere

20:44

he travelled. The reason

20:46

that's such a dumb idea is

20:48

that to get a signal both phones need

20:51

to connect with a cell site, a

20:53

mobile phone mast and that leaves

20:56

a record. So we have the EnquilChat

20:58

device user wolf and we

21:00

have Paul Fontaine and his personal phone. The

21:03

same way I've got my personal phone and

21:05

I've got my job phone and we

21:07

see those groups working together so

21:10

they constantly start looking together,

21:12

they were effectively always together

21:15

and with the volume of data we have the

21:17

chance that always together all the time

21:20

and not held by the same person certainly

21:23

becomes quickly remote. DC

21:26

Lightner can see from the mobile

21:29

phone cell site data that on

21:31

a regular basis Paul Fontaine's mobile

21:33

phone and the EnquilChat handle usual

21:35

wolf travel from London to

21:38

Cardiff. Now at this

21:40

point British policing gets really joined up.

21:43

Driss's team who still don't know

21:45

that it's Frankie Sinclair hiding behind

21:48

the handle Nude Train contact South

21:50

Wales police to ask if the

21:52

photograph of the house being shot

21:55

that means anything to them. Detective

21:57

Inspector Paula Everly Williams recognises it.

22:00

straight away. That was Frankie St. Glie's house. This

22:03

was an aha moment for South Wales police

22:05

and the Met. All this trying

22:07

to get hold of a gun was about revenge. They

22:10

could see the message sent from the

22:12

anonymous handle, nude train, saying, Mum's

22:15

got lit up, so retaliation

22:17

can't be no joke. The

22:19

faces of the men attacking Frankie's house

22:22

are covered, so the police

22:24

are wondering, who is Frankie

22:26

plotting to kill? Or

22:32

maybe he's already done it. There's

22:36

no time to lose. The

22:39

police deploy armed officers to arrest

22:42

Frankie Sinclair in Cardiff. Police! And

22:44

Paul Fontaine in London. It

22:47

must have been incredibly tense. Both

22:49

men could have had firearms on them. But

22:53

there was a bit of light relief. Remember

22:56

the photo Frankie Sinclair sent to

22:59

usual wolf of his girlfriend's French

23:01

bulldog? We

23:04

obviously had the picture of the dog on the

23:06

anchorage at this little French bulldog. And

23:08

we gave a collection of images to South

23:10

Wales and we said, Look, this is taking

23:12

in the girlfriend's address. And they came back

23:14

to us with this lovely little picture of

23:16

the dog. Awwww. More

23:18

evidence that nude train really

23:21

was Frankie Sinclair. He's

23:23

busted. And Frankie's arrest

23:25

solves another mystery. They discover

23:27

that the man Frankie Sinclair believes attacked

23:29

his mum's house is the

23:32

same guy who attacked Frankie's

23:34

associate in broad daylight and

23:36

who is now safely locked up in prison

23:39

and not coming out any time soon. The

23:42

potential target's life has probably been

23:44

saved by his own arrest. And

23:51

that dilemma about whether to reveal

23:53

the encroach at evidence to people the

23:55

police arrest. Well, that problem has

23:57

gone away completely because

23:59

the secret lies. out. In

24:01

June 2020, after the police

24:03

have been secretly harvesting the criminals messages

24:06

for over two months, Enchrochat

24:08

users get some unwelcome news, a

24:11

message from Enchrochat to

24:13

say they've just realised that they've been

24:15

hacked probably by a

24:17

government. When

24:21

it was revealed, did everything just kind

24:23

of click? Did everything fall into place

24:25

for you? Yes. Defence

24:27

solicitors like Julian Richards have been

24:30

wondering for weeks why some of

24:32

their clients had been arrested on

24:34

what looked like pretty thin evidence.

24:36

Now they realise the police probably

24:38

have an awful lot of intel

24:41

on some of their clients. The

24:43

number of people that were alleged

24:45

to have been using Enchrochat we

24:47

appreciated that that would lead to

24:49

arrests and prosecutions on

24:51

an unprecedented scale from what we'd

24:53

seen previously. And of course,

24:55

practicing as a lawyer also

24:58

presented a very interesting challenge

25:01

because the circumstances of the

25:03

hack were very

25:05

unclear. The authorities

25:07

on the face of it had

25:09

been able to infiltrate

25:11

in terms which were still unclear

25:14

about a whole

25:16

telecommunications network that

25:18

was inevitably going to result

25:20

in legal challenges. And

25:24

what about the criminals who had Enchrochat

25:26

phones? I think lots

25:28

of phones are probably thrown into rivers

25:30

and buried and whatever. But

25:33

of course it was too late

25:35

for anyone who'd been doing their

25:37

criminal wheeler dealing on Enchrochat. By

25:41

this stage the police were sitting

25:43

on millions of messages between Europe's

25:46

top-tier criminals. They were

25:48

ready to stage an International Day

25:50

of Arrest. the

26:00

day we're going. As

26:08

for Paul Fontaine and Frankie Sinclair,

26:10

well, they're later convicted at the

26:12

Old Bailey of conspiracy to murder.

26:16

The courts also heard that Paul Fontaine

26:18

had supplied a gun in another case

26:20

where a man was murdered and

26:22

that Frankie Sinclair had been involved in

26:24

a conspiracy to supply a kilo of

26:26

heroin. They're sentenced to life with

26:29

a minimum of 18 years. They're the first

26:32

criminals to be convicted on the

26:34

basis of Enchrochat evidence alone and

26:37

that'll become really significant as

26:39

my producer Andrew and I

26:42

later realize. There's a problem with

26:44

if the police are able to use this

26:46

evidence at all, potentially hundreds of convictions could

26:48

hang and the whole future

26:50

of this Enchrochat operation hangs to.

26:53

It's like a house of cards. But

26:56

for the time being it's a result for

26:58

the Met and for South Wales Police. When

27:01

the Met report and silent rung me and said

27:04

it was guilty, we did a small party in

27:06

the office because I've been chasing Frankie Sinclair for

27:08

almost five years so I was

27:10

really pleased. The

27:18

criminals you heard about in this episode

27:21

sat above the ordinary street gangs but

27:23

they were low level compared to a

27:25

lot of those unmasked by the Enchrochat

27:27

hack. In the

27:30

coming episodes we're going to hear

27:32

about some much more surprising characters

27:34

including some of the higher-ups. Businessmen,

27:37

entrepreneurs, corrupt insiders, a leading community

27:39

member who do a lot for

27:41

his neighborhood, a serving police officer

27:43

at that time. The

27:47

next episode is about a case you

27:49

won't have heard about in the news

27:51

revealed for the very first time. It's

27:53

the story of a couple of

27:56

high-level criminals who looked like ordinary

27:58

suburban guys. He clearly had

28:01

high connections within the financial world. You

28:03

can hear it in the entire series

28:05

right now on BBC Sounds. I'm

28:09

Mabine Azhar and you've been listening to Catching

28:11

the Kingpins. It's a BBC Studios

28:13

production for BBC Sounds. The

28:16

series producer was Andrew Hoskin

28:19

and the executive producer was Ines Bowen.

28:24

Catching the Kingpins. Come

28:26

first on BBC Sounds. Oh

28:56

my God. Murder

28:59

the Rolt with Laura Whitmore and Ian Sterling.

29:01

Listen on BBC Sounds.