0:00

This is the BBC. Jeff

0:31

looks at the spec. It looks impressive.

0:34

Then comes the pitch. Would

0:38

Jeff like to carry this new

0:40

product on his website? Jeff doesn't

0:42

really know the guy sitting across the

0:45

table. He doesn't know if he can trust

0:47

him. But

0:50

this encrypted phone looks like a

0:53

great product. Jeff

0:55

knows he can find retailers for it. Tempting,

1:00

but Jeff walks away. Two

1:05

days later, he makes a decision. He's in.

1:10

What could possibly go wrong? What

1:13

Jeff, a legit businessman, doesn't realise

1:15

is that he's just agreed to

1:17

sell an encrypted phone that

1:19

will become the industry standard for

1:22

organised crime. Hitman.

1:25

Money laundering. Drug traffickers. Large scale

1:27

drug importation. All the enough kidnaps

1:30

are made that like you'd order

1:32

a take away. Six years on,

1:34

this supposedly uncrackable network cracks big

1:36

time. The largest law enforcement hacking

1:39

operation ever. One of the biggest police

1:41

operations of its kind. All because French

1:43

intelligence has broken into a secret

1:45

criminal phone network. For over two

1:48

months in 2020, police across Europe

1:50

were getting updates on the inner

1:52

workings of organised crime gangs. The

1:55

Police were secretly reading their phone messages

1:58

on a daily basis. Some

2:01

some years I've been in a

2:03

room with them and they also

2:05

kid friendly and I don't see

2:07

her they spoke about been able

2:09

to raise arms, laundering money, millions,

2:12

detention. The phone network

2:14

became known as and Crow Chats and

2:16

that business dinner in Calgary was a

2:18

rag glimpse of one of the people

2:20

who say up. Imo

2:24

been as off and for Btc

2:26

sounds this is touching the kingpins.

2:29

Episode four who bill and

2:31

quote shots. For

2:36

such a dream. I.

2:42

Always wonder what actually happened

2:44

to decrease behind and Carter

2:46

because essentially if you think

2:48

about say they've actually signed

2:50

it over to law enforcement

2:52

in Europe, all these people.

2:55

Yeah. It's this wild detective

2:57

Chief Inspector Dress. Hi you Kane

2:59

I met police officer as been

3:01

my guide through the story. He

3:03

spent years investigating the criminals who use

3:05

the and crow chat phones but even

3:08

he has no idea who was behind

3:10

the company. Has a or gonna South

3:12

America treasure. Pearson's close to them. I

3:14

can save money. I mean if you

3:16

think. About

3:19

how many divorces of it Estimated as

3:21

I say thousand Boston Jump estate Hundred

3:23

pounds a pop. And for six

3:25

months best as a huge amount money is a

3:27

lot us. Now. In some

3:29

ways, it's not surprising that trust doesn't

3:32

know anything about the encroach. Her own

3:34

is. He. Was busy enough

3:36

just investigating the uses. But.

3:38

What About The French Police? The. And

3:40

crotch up server was on their pats.

3:43

And they're the ones that wiped out how

3:45

to compromise it. Well. According

3:47

to the dentist Joseph Cost, it looks

3:50

as this when the hack took place.

3:52

They. Might not have known who was behind

3:54

it either. The

3:57

French police publisher statements.

4:00

Hey if the encroachment owners a wanna

4:02

reach out and talk about the legality

4:04

of the operations, we will happily do

4:07

so. Any person

4:09

presenting himself as an officer,

4:11

representative or administrator of the

4:13

companies at the origin of

4:16

the service if I said

4:18

to make themselves known. The

4:21

apparent reason being that they

4:23

can be to identify who

4:26

ran operators and creature. Email

4:29

at that contact.and coach

4:31

at at Johns I'm.in

4:33

Syria. The Groove docs

4:35

F off. I.

4:39

Don't know whether to fully

4:41

believe my own Whether that

4:43

is kind of embarrassing. Cool

4:45

enough. Joseph Cops Rights for

4:48

Four o' Four Media, a

4:50

platform that specializes in reporting

4:52

on technology and crimes Cruises

4:54

he think bill and protests

4:56

that that's the question I'm

4:58

not going to answer just

5:00

because I imagine a lot

5:02

of organized crime groups probably

5:05

blame them for what ultimately

5:07

happens in movies. arrests, Were

5:10

not going to name the inventors

5:12

and suspected owners of encroach are

5:14

either for legal as well as

5:16

safety reasons. But.

5:20

I don't need to give away their

5:22

identities to tell this fascinating story. I

5:25

want to give you a reminder of what

5:27

Joseph Cox said. It was like when he

5:29

started writing about encroach chat back and Twenty

5:32

sixteen. Four. Years before, The

5:34

Hat and Creature were very

5:36

much underground. They never responded

5:39

to my emails, my text

5:41

messages, Joseph is talking about

5:43

when he was vice mags. Go

5:45

to guy on privacy and encryption.

5:48

Naturally, Most companies in that space

5:50

wanted to talk to him. But.

5:52

Not encroach that they always stood out

5:55

to me is being maybe the scary

5:57

ones for the his. they really don't

5:59

want to talk. Me. So I am. I wonder

6:01

what they're up to? This. Always be

6:03

Mom is about who was running and

6:05

crow chat. There's. One

6:07

theory in particular, That. Has

6:09

got a lot of mileage. And

6:11

that's the idea that it was

6:13

actually a front for law enforcement.

6:16

So the idea is that the

6:18

police had set up this thing

6:20

and the idea was to real

6:22

in. Lots. Of criminals and then

6:24

of course the police would be able

6:27

to spy on them. The government would

6:29

know what they were doing and it

6:31

might sound like a weird conspiracy theory.

6:33

But. Actually, Something. Really

6:35

similar had already happened. Hundred

6:39

S A suspected criminals arrested worldwide after

6:41

being tracked and see a thing as

6:43

as the I Run encrypted messaging app

6:45

that Nielsen is a place. Such.

6:49

A different encrypted phone network this one's

6:52

called a Nom turned out to be

6:54

a trap. The operation join to

6:56

set out by Australia and the Sci

6:58

allow police to monitor the criminals chance

7:00

about front smuggling, money laundering and isn't

7:03

that a plots the aren't known as

7:05

and on A N O M. The

7:08

a non phone took off in Australia.

7:11

A drug trafficker unwittingly distribute to

7:13

be are known as and on too

7:15

many of his associates. After he was

7:18

given a device by undercover agents, officers

7:20

were then able to read millions of

7:22

messages. And real time relied if you

7:25

like a word of mouth and recommendations

7:27

on influences within the criminal underworld to

7:29

spread the word about. The sync corrected

7:31

up until it reached ninety countries nearly

7:34

ten thousand users around the world all

7:36

the time with the F B I

7:38

and others being able to read those

7:40

messages. The inventor of the A Non

7:43

phone turned out to be working for

7:45

the police. What they didn't realize is

7:47

that a person, he was developing this

7:50

and norms secure encrypted, I had become

7:52

an F. B I informant. Could

7:56

it be that the same thing had happened

7:58

with And proto? The team

8:00

behind it going to bed with the

8:02

French police or some other government agencies?

8:05

Well. I. Don't think so. To.

8:07

Tell Encroach that's more likely origin

8:09

story. We're gonna go back to

8:11

Canada. To. The legitimate phone

8:14

distributor Jeff Green. The. Guy

8:16

who says he actually met one of

8:18

the founders face to face in a

8:20

restaurant and then later agree to be

8:23

that whole say lot y de jes

8:25

agreed to sell the phones for someone

8:27

had never met before. The account we

8:29

have of his involvement in encroach at

8:32

his his alone and for reasons that

8:34

will become apparent. Just doesn't want to

8:36

do an interview but you have spoken

8:38

in the past to David James Smith

8:40

true Crime or Thought and Rights Up

8:43

for the Sunday Times Magazine. Or

8:46

good the to say that he was

8:48

a little naive in thinking that this

8:50

was a genuine, upstanding business proposition. That

8:53

as far as he's concerned, a the

8:55

some things eg, summit. That. People

8:58

like journalists, celebrities,

9:00

politicians would. Be.

9:03

Willing. To use. And

9:05

or the say that stores genuine.

9:09

Let me remind you what was going on.

9:11

But And Forty Forty. The

9:14

News of the World hacked

9:16

into the private affairs of

9:18

anyone who might provide a

9:20

story. The scene of the

9:22

Crime: The long abandoned newsroom

9:24

of what was once Britain's

9:26

top selling paper. A bunch

9:28

of journalists had disgraced themselves.

9:30

the systematic testing of the

9:32

foods of celebrities politicians. are

9:34

those whose lives at already

9:36

been blighted by terrible crimes?

9:38

Oh yeah, And in case you

9:41

forgot that been another phone security

9:43

bombshell making headlines about a year

9:45

earlier. Edward Snowden, a

9:47

former Us National Security Agency contract

9:50

that blown the whistle on a

9:52

program that allowed Us and British

9:54

Intelligence to use our smartphones to

9:56

spy on us. So. for

9:59

example sit in your pocket, they can turn the

10:01

microphone on and listen to everything that's going on around

10:03

you, even if my phone is switched off. Even if

10:05

your phone's switched off because they've got the other tools

10:07

for turning it on. All

10:10

that headline news about hacking and

10:13

phones being used to snoop was

10:15

swirling around when Jeff sat down

10:17

to dinner in 2014 and started

10:19

getting the encrypted phone pitch. Now

10:23

keep in mind what I said about

10:26

a lot of angry criminals being after

10:28

the people who founded Enchrochat. I'm

10:30

not going to use the real name of

10:32

the guy who Jeff Green says offered to

10:34

supply him with those encrypted phones. I'm going

10:36

to call him Mark and

10:39

he's actually only one half of

10:42

Enchrochat as far as Jeff can make

10:44

out. There's another guy, let's

10:46

call him Tony. The thing is,

10:48

even if I gave you their real names, I doubt

10:50

there's a lot you could find out about either of

10:52

them. The extraordinary thing about

10:55

these two names was that they had almost no

10:57

social media footprint. David

11:00

James Smith tried to dig into Mark

11:02

and Tony after the hack went public

11:04

in 2020. So

11:11

a couple of tech entrepreneurs with

11:13

almost no online presence. That's

11:15

a bit weird, right? And obviously that

11:18

made them all the more intriguing. Two

11:23

years into being Enchrochat's global distributor, money

11:25

is rolling in and it's time to

11:27

cut the red ribbon

11:29

outside Jeff's new office. Jeff's

11:32

hired new staff. The office

11:34

is all bean bags and pinball machines. You

11:36

can bring your dog to work. It's that

11:38

kind of place. There

11:41

were 200 people at the party, but

11:43

Jeff, he's not in the mood. Remember

11:46

what Joseph Cox said about Enchrochat?

11:48

They always stood out to me

11:50

as being maybe the scary

11:53

ones. Well, Jeff has

11:55

found out that the Enchrochat guys

11:57

are scary. According to Jeff,

12:00

He got a call from Mark, he'd sold

12:02

the company but wouldn't tell Jeff

12:04

who to. Then

12:07

Jeff gets a message, yes on

12:09

Enchrochat from the new bosses. It

12:11

says I'm going to charge you more

12:13

for the phones. That's followed

12:15

up with an accusation that Jeff

12:18

was competing with Enchrochat and that's

12:20

something Jeff says is nonsense. What

12:23

makes things even more difficult is

12:25

that Enchrochat is registered in Panama,

12:27

a place that isn't exactly known

12:29

for transparency. At the

12:31

time I'm talking about Panama didn't even

12:33

keep a central record of who the

12:35

true owners of all the companies registered

12:38

there were. And then

12:40

Enchrochat cuts off Jeff

12:42

completely. A

12:46

UK life coaching group destroying

12:48

lives. It was like he would

12:51

collect your secrets. At that point I was

12:53

scared for my safety. The total I invested was £131,000.

12:57

Controlling people. It was more about

12:59

apportioning blame to my parents. These

13:01

toxic groups called family. Intimidating

13:04

critics. When I've asked questions.

13:07

They said if you leave and you turn

13:09

against us we have all those personal

13:11

recordings of yours. A very

13:13

British cult. With me, Katra Nye. We

13:15

will come for you next. Listen

13:18

on BBC Seasonings. As

13:22

Jeff later writes on a blog entitled I

13:25

Have Been Targeted By A Malicious

13:27

Campaign of Misinformation which he posts

13:29

on Medium, within the blink of

13:31

an eye he lost over 5 million

13:34

Canadian dollars in annual revenue. That

13:37

seems like a breach of contract to Jeff. But

13:39

what is he going to do? He can't sue

13:41

a company if he can't get hold of

13:43

anyone. Even the law

13:45

firm that registered Enchrochat in Panama

13:48

says their client has gone AWOL.

13:50

The company is the registered and

13:53

the trail goes cold. Then

13:56

the journalist David James Smith starts

13:58

sniffing around. Panama point of

14:01

view the company no longer exists. Obviously

14:04

somebody carried on making the phones,

14:07

carried on distributing the

14:09

phones and carried on making a lot of

14:11

money out of them. In

14:13

2020, after the Enquiro hack made

14:16

headlines, David is trawling through public

14:18

records and looking for clues on

14:20

the internet. It was

14:22

a really difficult trail to follow. But

14:25

there's a lead for Mark's business partner,

14:27

the guy we're calling Tony. His

14:30

family seemed to have owned a property in the Caribbean.

14:33

I found him in a list of names of

14:35

people who once played around a golf in a

14:37

golf course in Abu Dhabi in the United Arab

14:39

Emirates. I think he'd once been

14:41

pursued as a young man for nonpayment of a

14:43

credit card. There was a kind of

14:45

court record in Canada about that. And

14:48

you find some detail on Mark too. He

14:50

was also living in the same Caribbean country. He

14:52

had a home there. He'd

14:55

been on Facebook once, but he seemed to have removed

14:57

that. But his wife was

14:59

on there and she was involved in a cat and dog charity. But

15:02

really that was about all I could find. But

15:05

it's 2020 when David is doing

15:07

this story. And remember, we're in

15:09

the middle of the coronavirus pandemic.

15:13

Well, I'd probably gone down there and knocked

15:15

on their door but with the

15:17

pandemic, I wasn't really able to do that. So

15:19

in the end, I just had to rely on

15:21

the information that I'd got. He

15:23

was making progress, tracing Enquiro

15:26

chat back to a Canadian

15:28

company called Esoteric Communications. David

15:31

found that two of the

15:33

people involved in Esoteric Communications

15:35

were in fact Canadian gangsters

15:37

known to the police. I'd

15:40

love to speak to them, but

15:42

unfortunately, one was shot and

15:44

killed in a car park in 2016. And

15:49

the other one survived a drive

15:52

by shooting that he

15:54

died of a drug overdose. That

15:58

leaves the guys recalling Mark. and

16:00

Tony. We just don't

16:02

know if they were the ones in

16:04

control of EnchroChat when the company finally

16:06

realised its network had been compromised and

16:09

it put out this panicked message to

16:11

users. We can no longer

16:14

guarantee the security of your device. You're

16:17

advised to power off and physically dispose

16:19

of your device immediately. It

16:22

was then that EnchroChat decided the

16:24

time was right to respond to

16:26

Joseph Cox. The journalists have

16:28

been ignoring for years. When

16:31

rumours of what was happening to

16:33

EnchroChat were spinning across the criminal

16:35

underground, I reached out to the

16:38

company again and they finally did

16:40

get back to me with the news that they were going

16:42

to completely dismantle

16:45

their phone network. They saw no way

16:47

out. They'd been basically trapped and cornered

16:49

by this law enforcement operation.

16:52

So we did not know the

16:55

specific person we were talking to.

16:58

This was purely done over email.

17:01

All we knew was that we

17:04

are communicating with someone in

17:06

control of what we know

17:08

to be an EnchroChat email address.

17:11

One thing Joseph could tell if there

17:13

were pros. This is a professional

17:15

operation that although it was eventually

17:18

shut down and stopped, they clearly

17:20

know what they were doing when

17:22

it came to encryption and security

17:24

and that sort of thing. It

17:26

doesn't mean they were perfect obviously

17:28

because the French military police did

17:30

find a vulnerability to exploit but

17:33

they were legitimate when it came to their technical

17:35

knowledge it seemed. Okay, so

17:37

when it all went belly up for

17:39

EnchroChat, they were suddenly willing to communicate

17:41

with the journalist but did they

17:44

respond to that shout out from the French

17:46

police? Any person presenting

17:48

himself as an officer, representative

17:50

or administrator of the companies

17:53

at the origin of this

17:55

service is invited to make

17:57

themselves known. Email us

17:59

at contact.enchrochat at jean

18:02

de marie.interia.gov.fr I

18:08

don't know if anyone from Enchrochat got in

18:10

touch with the French police. If

18:13

I had to take a guess, I'd say probably

18:15

not. But that's okay, because

18:17

the French police got in touch with

18:19

them instead. June

18:25

2022, more than two years after the

18:28

Enchrochat, the guy we're calling Mark and

18:30

his wife, who runs the cat and

18:32

dog charity, are at their home in

18:35

the Caribbean. Local police

18:37

have been staking out the house. Now

18:40

they're on the doorstep with the French

18:42

police, ready to make an

18:44

arrest. It's

18:47

an international operation. On

18:49

the same day arrests are made in

18:51

Dubai and Spain. All

18:54

people allegedly involved in the

18:56

supply and operation of Enchrochat

18:58

phones are taken in. Running

19:03

an encrypted phone network in France

19:05

without a license is illegal in

19:07

itself, but there are other

19:09

charges too. Some of the

19:12

people arrested are charged with money laundering,

19:14

illicit arms stealing and

19:17

drug trafficking. There's

19:23

a little bit about this in the press. More

19:25

than a year after the suspected owners

19:28

have been arrested. This is

19:30

a report from the Assault CIA and Press News

19:32

Agency from the 27th of June, 2023. The

19:36

chief prosecutor in Lille, northern France, gives

19:40

a really brief update. She says three

19:42

people were arrested in Spain and handed

19:44

over to France on the basis of

19:47

European arrest warrants. I

19:49

mean, we knew that it happened in 2022. And

19:52

then the prosecutor, she goes on,

19:54

other individuals have been located outside

19:56

the European Union and have not

19:58

yet been charged. So

20:01

at this stage, they haven't even

20:03

got all the defendants to the court in France,

20:06

let alone to trial in

20:08

Lille. So

20:14

why Lille? Well

20:18

the EnquoChat server was based in

20:20

the same area of northern France

20:23

as Lille, a place

20:25

called Roubaix, and because

20:27

the server was in France, it

20:29

was the French police who led the way.

20:32

They put out the fake software update

20:34

that compromised the phones. Now

20:37

exactly how they did this,

20:39

the technical detail of all that, that's

20:42

still a French secret. But

20:45

I know a man who thinks he's

20:47

worked it out. I'm

20:50

Professor of Security Engineering at the

20:52

University of Cambridge and also at

20:54

the University of Edinburgh. Meet Professor

20:56

Ross Anderson. I've

20:58

worked for 30 odd years on

21:00

many things to do with applied

21:02

cryptography, with payment networks, with the

21:05

security of mobile devices, with online

21:07

fraud and with various kinds of

21:09

online abuse. He was hired

21:11

as an expert witness by a defendant

21:13

in Britain who's facing serious charges as

21:15

a result of the EnquoChat hack. The

21:18

accused man took the national crime agency to

21:20

a special court called the

21:22

Investigatory Powers Tribunal, and Ross's

21:25

evidence was submitted as part of that. So

21:27

just a reminder of how the national crime

21:30

agency said this worked. They

21:32

say there were two phases to the operation.

21:37

So stage one, the messages already sitting

21:39

on the phone are copied and sent

21:41

back to the French police's shadow server.

21:44

Stage two is when the police got

21:46

copies of all the new messages being

21:49

sent. Now this process

21:51

has always been described as

21:53

equipment interference by the national

21:55

crime agency. In plain

21:57

language, a legalised hack. Getting

22:00

at data that's stored on a device

22:02

and copying it rather than catching it

22:04

in transmission like you would with a

22:06

wiretap So that's hacking

22:09

as opposed to interception But

22:11

according to professor Anderson the

22:14

compromise of the encore chat system was

22:16

more complicated than that He

22:18

says it involves modifying pretty

22:21

well every aspect of the

22:23

communication system The apps

22:25

on the handset the servers and

22:27

the updating mechanism He says

22:29

this is not a hack The

22:35

lie data appears to have been taken

22:37

as a matter of live intercept This

22:42

is incredibly important Because

22:46

if it's an intercept and not

22:48

a hack then the National Crime

22:50

Agency applied for the wrong type

22:52

of warrants and even

22:54

more importantly intercept evidence

22:57

Cannot be used in court in the UK

23:02

If this is an intercept of

23:04

course that has the potential to

23:07

impact many of the cases

23:09

that have come to conclusion where people are actually

23:11

serving sentences right now and prosecutions

23:13

that are still pending But

23:16

you're absolutely clear. It was an intercept and

23:18

not a hack Absolutely

23:24

Now a few caveats around what Ross

23:27

Anderson is saying yes He is most

23:29

definitely a top expert on the technical

23:31

side of things But

23:34

he's not a lawyer and the way Technologists

23:37

define interception might

23:39

not be the same as the way the law does

23:42

in fact a judge said

23:44

that an expert report Ross

23:46

Anderson prepared straight away from

23:48

technical matters and entered the

23:50

arena of legal interpretation I

23:53

think what the judge is saying there is

23:55

stay in your lane Ross, but

23:57

in the immediate aftermath of that interview

24:00

My executive producer, Innes Bowen and I,

24:02

are in a state of shock. Wow,

24:05

this is... yeah, it's quite

24:07

major, isn't it? Mm-hmm. It

24:09

feels like a time bomb, actually. This

24:13

law that bans the use of intercept evidence

24:15

in court means there's a lot at stake.

24:18

What I don't get, though, is why we have this

24:20

law in the first place. So I

24:23

call up a man who I'm told knows

24:25

this stuff inside out. I didn't

24:27

set out at school to become an

24:29

expert in surveillance or other

24:32

snooping powers. Giles Herdale was a civil

24:34

servant at the home office. He

24:36

worked closely with the police and

24:38

security agencies, and then

24:40

he fell into leading a team

24:42

that wrote the rule book for

24:45

how the police do covert investigations.

24:47

Interception material can't be introduced into

24:49

a criminal trial. It's a criminal

24:51

offense to even disclose that an

24:53

intercept has taken place. Apparently, there

24:55

are no such rules in the

24:57

rest of Europe. These

25:00

are very British laws. Governments

25:02

of every stripe in the UK have come

25:04

in and thought it might be a good

25:06

idea to change things on the basis that

25:09

allowing intercept to be used as evidence might

25:11

help put away a few more criminals. But

25:14

then the politicians all this back down. There

25:16

have been eight reviews, I think, in the

25:18

last 30 years. Eight. Eight,

25:20

yeah, and they've all made a conscious decision

25:22

not to do it. It's partly about money.

25:25

All the intercept material would have to

25:27

be disclosed to the defendants. And

25:30

going through all the transcripts and

25:32

recordings and redacting anything that couldn't

25:34

be revealed would cost a fortune,

25:36

apparently. But there's another reason

25:38

why every government has decided not

25:41

to change things. The fact is,

25:43

the intelligence services like things

25:45

the way they are. There's

25:48

deliberate ambiguity over what and

25:50

how the police and law enforcement and

25:53

intelligence agencies what they can access and

25:55

how they can access it. Because

25:57

if criminals knew that... and

26:00

channels were immune to

26:02

interception, they obviously migrate towards them.

26:04

So if it was highlighted what

26:07

material can't be intercepted, that would

26:10

effectively allow criminals to say, those are

26:12

the modes that we'll use. Is

26:14

that the idea? Yeah, exactly. Giles

26:17

wouldn't say this, but I suspect this

26:19

is as much about keeping secret what

26:21

the spy agencies can do, as

26:24

well as what they can't. There are

26:26

still so many secrets surrounding this story,

26:29

but there's one thing that law enforcement

26:32

have been surprisingly open about. One

26:34

of the most alarming things that came

26:36

out from reading the Incra chat messages,

26:39

probably to the dismay of a lot

26:41

of law enforcement officials, was that a

26:44

fair few of their own ranks

26:46

were corrupt as well. This is

26:48

crime and technology journalist, Joseph Cox

26:50

again. The Dutch police, they came

26:53

out saying, this issue

26:55

is so bad with corrupt insiders

26:57

that we have multiple investigations ongoing

26:59

and I believe they arrested some people

27:02

at the time as well. Yep, the

27:04

hack exposed corrupt police officers who were

27:06

in bed with career criminals, including

27:08

a jaw-dropping case at the

27:11

Met. We arrested 11 individuals, four

27:15

of which were serving police officers. It's

27:19

a story so nuts that if it

27:22

was online of duty, you'd think it

27:24

was too wild to be true. It's

27:26

quite incredible really, the most brazen corruption

27:30

I've seen. That's

27:33

in the next episode. You can hear it right

27:35

now as well as the rest of the series.

27:41

I'm Mabin Azar and you've been listening to

27:43

Catching the Kingpins. It's a

27:45

BBC Studios production for BBC Sounds.

27:48

The series producer was Andrew Hoskin

27:50

and the executive producer was Innes

27:53

Bowen. In-crew chat.

27:55

In-crew chat. In-crew chat. In-crew chat,

27:58

happy. Catching

28:01

the kingpins listen first

28:03

on BBC sounds. I

28:30

think I'm as joining me. You sit

28:32

down and be brave. Slide those earbuds

28:34

in and let my podcast sweep you

28:36

off your feet. Michelle Visage's

28:38

Rule Breakers. Listen on BBC

28:41

Sounds.